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Prince Charon
September 6th, 2011, 11:24 PM
This began with a question: What if the Second Magic (http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Second_Magic) became, due to technological progress, a magecraft (http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Magecraft), even if only partially? Well, once Rin found out (which could take a while, as she isn't exactly a science nerd), she'd want to talk to herself... by which I mean, her other selves.

Going into a little more detail, let's say that some time before the Fifth Holy Grail War, CERN discovered a way to exchange information with alternate realities. You need a massive particle accelerator, giant super-computers, and probably a million euros worth of energy a minute, but you can do it - transfer of matter, however, still requires a True Miracle. Some time after this, but still before the War starts, Rin hears about this from her science teacher, who is very excited by it. Correctly concluding that a limited form of the Operation of Parallel Worlds is now possible with magecraft, Rin goes through what information she has on the Second Magic (Zelretch gave her family the plans for the Jewel Sword, but they've never been able to make one), and attempts to set up communication with one of her alternate selves, and when it works, with others - given the source of her information on the Second Magic, her means of communication is probably a sword or other bladed weapon, made of gems.

A bit more information on Rin's means of extradimensional communication (or at least, Rin-0's): The Jewel Dagger Tohsaka Rin is a miniature, and far more limited, version of the Jewel Sword Zelretch. Holding it, and feeding it prana, allows Communication with Parallel Worlds - specifically, mental converse with one's alternate selves, sharing thoughts and memories - only information can be exchanged, not matter, energy, or prana. You may select a self you've contacted, before, search for a self who fits some set criteria (some of which will be set by your subconscious, unless you have insanely good self control), cast out at random (which really just means your subconscious is determining all the criteria, which is not always a good thing), or be directed by someone else. So, for example, Rin-0 could point Shirou-0 at the minds of the Shirous in the worlds of the Rins she has contacted, and then Shirou-0 would afterwards be able to contact them without her help.

I suggest that three become important to this story (any of which might be spun off into its own thread, if there's enough interest). Some of the items below may seem to bend or break the rules of the Nasuverse. This is intentional.

The first is in a 'magi are mostly not utter dicks' timeline (is there a thread for AUs with that concept, here?). The world resembles one of the more openly superheroic versions of the Wold Newton Universe (http://www.pjfarmer.com/woldnewton/Pulp2.htm), mixed with the Nasuverse (so, a fair number of relatively low-power supers, some of moderate power, and very few high-power ones - even the strongest can at best match, rather than exceed, the top-tier Nasuverse characters - and not a lot of time-travelers or aliens; the Golden Age version (and any successors) may be the only Green Lantern, for example). The Magi Association is made up of good and neutral magi (and some evil ones pretending to be good or neutral), and administrates research into magics and magecrafts (and education in same, sometimes as a side effect), serves as a clearinghouse for information, assists superheroes and would-be superheroes in organizing, maintaining secret identities, and so forth, and encourages the advancement of science, for the benefit of humanity - and so that more things may be accomplished with magecraft. It was this timeline that contacted the CERN of Rin-0's universe, and showed them how to set up the cyclotron for transmission. While it is not a 'proper superheroes never kill' timeline, it is a 'most superheroes reserve killing for a last resort' timeline (e.g. Kiritsugu might still his Thompson Contender and Origin Bullets (if he actually has the same Origins), but would use them far less frequently than in canon).

Interestingly, there are about twice as many magi and magecraft users as in Rin-0's world, but their average power level is higher, rather than lower. The total world population is a bit smaller, as well, but not enough to account for the difference. The Magi Association has heard of the rule that this breaks, that the more magi there are, the less powerful each one can be, and the more people there are, the less dense their souls are, and thus the less magical individual humans can be, but considers it a disproven theory. It seemed to be true for a long time, as humanity seemed to be in decline, but the decline did not match up with the rise in population. Its currently believed that it was instead a combination of factors, environmental, biological (inbreeding is bad, m'kay? - and that may not be the only biological reason), magical, and cultural, that lead to the theory appearing to be true. Humanity has been on the upswing in that timeline, since the late 19th century. The Wold Newton meteor probably helped a bit, but there aren't enough people descended from those affected by it, for that to be the only factor.

The Rin of this world (let's call her Rin-1) lives with her parents, Tokiomi and Aoi, and younger sister, Sakura, and is pretty horrified to know what happened to Rin-0's family (and will be even moreso, when she finds out what Sakura's home life is like), and that Rin-0's main adult supervision for ten yours was Kotomine Kirei, whom she knows as a murderous supervillain. In fact, the more Rin-1 learns of the magi of Rin-0's world, the more it looks like an Evil Mirror Universe. Fortunately for Rin-0, their interaction is deep enough, and Rin-1 is perceptive enough, for Rin-1 to recognize that Rin-0 is a lot less heartless than a 'true magus' of her world is expected to be, despite what Rin-0 tries to tell herself.

Rin-1's life could be described fairly accurately as a cross between a Japanese harem comedy, and an American superhero comic. Her father is a superhero, and she and Sakura-1 are his sidekicks, as well as being magi in training. The two of them are in competition with a few other girls for the heart (and other parts) of Shirou von Einzbern, sidekick and adopted son of the kind-of-Batmanish-but-with-magecraft hero Emiya Kiritsugu von Einzbern, a friend and ally of their father. Shirou-1 was orphaned during a fight between Kiritsugu-1 and Kirei-1, and thus was adopted by Kiritsugu and his wife, Irisviel. He appears to be both smarter and more powerful than Shirou-0 (of course, so does Archer). Prior to being contacted by Rin-0, Rin-1 and Sakura-1 agreed to share him, so as not to give any advantage away to their rivals - especially not Luviagelita Edelfelt. They might be inclined to share with Ayako-1, if necessary, as long as it reduces Luvia-1's chances - its not that they think she's evil (she isn't), or that she's foreign (she is), but that they don't think Shirou-1 would be happy with her, and do think he'd be to nice to dump her. (No, I don't have hero names for any of them, though I was thinking of calling Kirei-1 'Judas'.)

Rin-1 is rather technologically inclined, like most magi of her world, a bit of an otaku, and a fan of Western SF. She has a top-of-the-line cell-phone and a PDA souped up into a technomagical tricorder, both of which she carries in her civilian guise (the PDA looks fairly normal, just rather customized), and a sonic screwdriver, a lightsabre, wrist phasers, and a lightly armoured costume with a visor that duplicates her PDA's functions in a smaller package, for her hero ID. Style-wise, she's very much a technomage, though she does make use of crystal-based magecraft that overlaps well with Rin-0's gem-casting.


The second world Rin-0 works with much more closely resembles her homeworld, save that its about a year in the future, and the CERN experiment happend not that long ago. The timeline matches Rin-0's, to the best she and Rin-2 can determine (which does not mean things that they are unaware of all match up; that's important), up until Rin-0 heard about the breakthrough at CERN, which happened several months later in Rin-2's universe, well after the War. The Holy Grail War that she participated in resembles the Fate route (and thus, Rin-0 is aware that her world's Grail may have been corrupted). Shirou-2 doesn't appear to be much smarter than Shirou-0.

Some time after the War ended, and she recovered from her injuries, Rin-2 discovered the situation her sister was living in, and tried to rescue her. This lead to Rin-2 being back in the hospital, in a coma. One night, Sakura-2 went to visit her, and found Shirou-2 asleep, holding her hand and partially drained of prana from Tracing Avalon. Sakura-2, unable to remain for long, and not being in a healthy mental state, binds Rin-2 to Shirou-2 as a rather bizarre familiar variant (or at least, something kind of like a familiar). Rin-2 being both alive, and having vastly more (and better quality) Magic Circuits than Shirou-2, she could supply prana to him, or he could draw it from her, thus allowing him to Trace Avalon long enough to do some good. Sakura-2 left a note wrapped around Shirou-2's hand, and returned to the Matou mansion. Shortly thereafter, the mansion was destroyed by something dark and silent, that left it a pile of rubble, that most are afraid to approach - there's just something wrong with that place. Sakura-2 and Zouken-2 are both dead, as best the Mages' Association can determine, but they're really not sure what she did, or how she did it.

Rin-2 is still getting used to her new nature. She has begun to develop some succubus-like traits, and also finds it uncomfortable to disobey, mock, or harm Shirou. That's not to say she can't, just that its not easy. There may be other odd quirks, as its an unusual situation, and Sakura-2 was insane at the time, on top of that.

Variation: Rather than Fate, it appears to be a hypothetical Ayako route (which also includes the revelation of the corrupted Grail). Ayako getting involved is by no means healthy for her, and at one point, she was injured badly enough that she would have died, had Rin-2 not been present. Lacking the gem she used to save Shirou-2, Rin-2 chose to bind Ayako-2 to herself as a living familiar. This made their situation with Shirou-2 a lot more complicated, particularly after Sakura-2 bound Rin-2, and thus Ayako-2, to Shirou. Because Rin-2 has more and better Magic Circuits than Ayako-2, and she was not insane at the time, their bond is rather less quirky than Shirou-2's with Rin-2. I suggest using this variation.


In Rin-3's world, where it appears to be the late 19th Century (17th year of Meiji, meaning 1885 - and this is confirmed by astronomical observations made by Rin-3, and looked up by Rin-0), but most of the F/sn cast are present, and the magi have a disturbing amount in common with the Sparks of Girl Genius (http://girlgenius.wikia.com/wiki/Girl_Genius_Wiki). This includes the 'madness place', and a semi-instinctive spell that gives them a charisma bonus - the more powerful the magus, the greater the bonus, but the target must be able to hear them speak. Just as in GG, they tend to rule large swathes of territory openly. They're still magi, but they push the advancement of SCIENCE! even more than Rin-1's people. Alchemy and a sort of Steampunk technomagic are probably the most common magecrafts, but far from the only ones. The world population is quite a bit smaller than in Rin-0's timeline, either 'now', or in the 19th Century, being closer to that of the middle ages. The total number of magi and magecraft users is about the same as in Rin-0's timeline 'now', in 2004, as is their level of power - as far as Rin-3 can tell, anyway. Rin-3 has never heard of the rules that this breaks, and wonders why the Mages' Association of Rin-0's world didn't simply reduce the surplus population, if they really believed that theory.

Rin-3 is a bit nuttier than the other Rins, especially once she gets going, and tends to rant and laugh more. She hasn't heard of anything like the Holy Grail War, but admits that it could be happening elsewhere, as world-wide communication is rather limited (somewhere between that of the GG world, and the RL late 19th Century). She lost most of her family to a worm attack from Makiri Zouken, but was able to save her sister with the help of Professor von Einzbern... by freezing her to death, extracting the quiescent worms from her very cold corpse, stitching her up, and then warming her, and reviving her with a properly channeled and filtered bolt of lightning (Rin-0: O_O "Eh, lets call that a last resort, OK?"). Her personal style of magecraft mixes gem magic with the more common alchemy and technomagic.

She is tsundere for Emiya Shirou, GENTLEMAN ADVENTURER!, and often supplies him with equipment ("S-stupid hero, I'm not doing this because I like you or anything!" *blushes cutely* "I just n-need someone to field test it."). Isn't fooling anyone - even the generally oblivious Shirou-3 saw through her act after a little while. Shirou-3 appears to be a fair bit smarter than Shirou-0 or Shirou-2 - he's only emotionally oblivious. He has a powerful familiar named Lily, whom he inherited from his father (though where Kiritsugu-3 got her, they don't know, and Lily claims not to remember). Apart from a fondness for wearing white, and being a very friendly and cheerful person, Lily seems a hell of a lot like the memories Rin-2 shared of the Saber Shirou-2 summoned, even having the same sword.


The various Rins wonder if the rules under which magecraft operate are different from world to world, or if different worlds found different exceptions and loopholes, and/or some of the rules are inaccurate.

One thing that the other Rins agree on, that Rin-0 really hopes they're wrong about, is their uniformly horrible luck with their own plans: when ever they make a plan, and it truly matters, bad luck will screw them over, every time (this happens in canon, to often to be coincidence). Enacting someone else's plan, they're generally OK, but their own plans fail, and its nearly always bad luck, rather than bad planning or inadequate information. Rin-3 reluctantly admits that this is why she asked for von Einzbern's help with Sakura-3 (von Einzbern planned the operation, in a scene somewhat reminiscent of this Girl Genius comic (http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20090814)), and needs to keep Shirou-3 in her territory (yeah, that's the only reason; sure). Its also why Rin-1 wants Sakura-1 to inherit the family Crest.

This is a serious problem for Rin-0, because the only people she can count on to make plans for her are either extradimensional (and would have to relay through the other Rins, unless she can get Shirou-0 to connect with Shirou-1 and/or -3), apparently stupid (i.e. Shirou-0), or evil (though Kotomine-0 would certainly be inclined to help with a plan that harms Zouken-0, for canon reasons, even - just not good ones) - or crazy and not necessarily willing to help, like Zelretch. Rin-0 is rather more interested in rescuing her sister than in winning the Holy Grail War, and dearly hopes that the Servant she summons can help her in that regard. "Right, my new cellphone has the right time, so I'll set an alarm to tell me when to do the ceremony. Now, where's the book that came with it...?"


On the subject of Shirous, its quite possible that not all the ones in the OP have Sword as their origin. Shirou-0 and -2 certainly do, as they started out as canon Shirou, but -1 and -3 are different. They probably got Avalon, but that's not a certainty, as both Kiritsugu's could have had access to other methods of healing, and in fact, Shirou-3 might not have needed it. I have found nothing on what Shirou's Origin would have been, without Avalon. Per the suggestion of Pale Wolf on Spacebattles.com, Shirou-3's Origin will be something like 'Creation', very appropriate for his world and position - also, it gives Rin-3 another reason to want him around.

One thing that Rins -1 and -3 have in common, is that they make use of artificial gem growing (and crystal-growing, in Rin-1's case) equipment, and these manufactured gems and crystals work just fine. They don't have quite as much capacity as natural gems, but their relative cheapness and convenience more than makes up for that.

Had a thought for a small scene: Rin-0 passes Sakura-0 in the hallway at school, when no-one else is in earshot, says "You're still my sister, and I still love you," and walks on. Not sure how Sakura would react to that.

ItsaRandomUsername
September 6th, 2011, 11:43 PM
Wait....is this an idea for a story with Steins;Gate-esque elements?

Prince Charon
September 7th, 2011, 05:24 AM
No, I don't think I'd heard of Stein's;Gate until after I had this idea.

Mike1984
September 7th, 2011, 05:28 AM
Had a thought for a small scene: Rin-0 passes Sakura-0 in the hallway at school, when no-one else is in earshot, says "You're still my sister, and I still love you," and walks on. Not sure how Sakura would react to that.

I'd say she'd be utterly delighted to hear something like that, although Zouken might overhear it....

ItsaRandomUsername
September 7th, 2011, 09:44 AM
I'd say she'd be utterly delighted to hear something like that, although Zouken might overhear it....

...And? What happens next? Get creative, bro.

Mike1984
September 7th, 2011, 09:58 AM
Well, honestly I doubt she'd really act on it, she'd just feel happy that her sister had acknowledged her.

Prince Charon
September 7th, 2011, 11:30 PM
Well, honestly I doubt she'd really act on it, she'd just feel happy that her sister had acknowledged her.
Yeah, probably. Its just that she hasn't had much to hope for in a long time, nor much to be happy about.

Not really sure what Rin-0 will do to save Sakura (she's really hoping to avoid Rin-3's solution, especially as it still leaves Zouken around to take revenge), but at the very least, she knows what horribly failed to work for Rin-2. One that I like (and am using in another idea) is a bounded field that kills vermin, without harming the hosts.

Mike1984
September 8th, 2011, 05:50 AM
Yeah, probably. Its just that she hasn't had much to hope for in a long time, nor much to be happy about.

Well, Shirou, but other than that you're right. I think Sakura would be very happy to hear Rin's love confirmed, and it would give her a feeling of hope, but I'm not sure if there's much she could actually do about it.


Not really sure what Rin-0 will do to save Sakura (she's really hoping to avoid Rin-3's solution, especially as it still leaves Zouken around to take revenge), but at the very least, she knows what horribly failed to work for Rin-2.

Can characters contact their alternate selves? Because, if so, presumably Sakura-1 could confirm if Sakura-2 is actually dead and, if not, how she escaped. But, yeah, other than that, I'd agree that Rin-3's solution is less than ideal....


One that I like (and am using in another idea) is a bounded field that kills vermin, without harming the hosts.

That could perhaps work, depending how you define "vermin". Something which kills familiars or other magical constructs would probably work better, though.

Prince Charon
September 9th, 2011, 03:09 AM
Can characters contact their alternate selves? Because, if so, presumably Sakura-1 could confirm if Sakura-2 is actually dead and, if not, how she escaped. But, yeah, other than that, I'd agree that Rin-3's solution is less than ideal....

They can, that's pretty much the point, but unless the eventual writer of this story thinks of something that works for them (or someone else comes up with an idea that the writer likes), I'm going to suggest that Sakura-2 is dead, but at least she died in triumph.

On the subject of Sakura-1, though, does anyone have suggestions for noms-de-costume for the characters in Rin-1's world?


That could perhaps work, depending how you define "vermin". Something which kills familiars or other magical constructs would probably work better, though.

'Vermin' as defined by the user, perhaps - one of the thoughts I have for it is that the bounded field kills Shinji as well as Zouken, because that's literally and sincerely the opinion that the magus using it holds of him (of course, that not quite how he explains it if anyone asks - he just says something like 'well clearly, he was vermin, else he'd be alive') - or based on criteria set by the creator. There's two Casters in my mind who would use it if summoned by Sakura, and one of them might phrase it like that.

Mike1984
September 9th, 2011, 06:02 AM
They can, that's pretty much the point, but unless the eventual writer of this story thinks of something that works for them (or someone else comes up with an idea that the writer likes), I'm going to suggest that Sakura-2 is dead, but at least she died in triumph.

Aww....


On the subject of Sakura-1, though, does anyone have suggestions for noms-de-costume for the characters in Rin-1's world?

Not off the top of my head, no.


'Vermin' as defined by the user, perhaps - one of the thoughts I have for it is that the bounded field kills Shinji as well as Zouken, because that's literally and sincerely the opinion that the magus using it holds of him (of course, that not quite how he explains it if anyone asks - he just says something like 'well clearly, he was vermin, else he'd be alive') - or based on criteria set by the creator. There's two Casters in my mind who would use it if summoned by Sakura, and one of them might phrase it like that.

Heh, lol.

Well, that is rather funny, but wouldn't such a spell be rather OP? I mean, give it to Gilgamesh and he could kill anyone with it, because to him they're all "vermin".

Prince Charon
September 9th, 2011, 07:58 AM
Well, that is rather funny, but wouldn't such a spell be rather OP? I mean, give it to Gilgamesh and he could kill anyone with it, because to him they're all "vermin".
That thought occurred to me, yeah. He has enough prana to pull it off, as well - though in my mind, part of the reason it works, is that its activated before Zouken knows he needs to defend himself.

'Criteria set by the creator' might work better. Depending one who made it, killing Shinji and Zouken (or just Zouken), without harming Sakura, could be completely plausible: Sakura is a human with magic circuits, Shinji has no magic circuits, and Zouken is a non-human that's made of worms. He's also a parasite, and messed up mentally, so something that kills parasites would kill him, but not Sakura or Shinji.

Of course, if her Servant wants Shinji dead, all he/she has to do is act before Sakura can tell them not to. Same for Rin, for that matter - its not like she hasn't got a motive, now.

Mike1984
September 9th, 2011, 08:02 AM
Well, if it's a servant's NP, then it makes sense that it could basically anyone. Who are you thinking of, anyway, who would possess such an NP?

Oh, also, what is the situation with the Matou family in world-1? Is Zouken still alive (presumably a super-villain...), and what about Kariya and Shinji?

shiningphoenix
September 9th, 2011, 01:30 PM
what about Kariya and Shinji?
Suffering hero and ineffectual comic relief character/gofer, respectively.

Mike1984
September 9th, 2011, 01:35 PM
Suffering hero and ineffectual comic relief character/gofer, respectively.

Well, I don't think it's quite that simple, honestly. After all, in canon Kariya was Sakura and Rin's "uncle", and cared deeply about them and Aoi, and without Zouken around to fuck things up for him I would assume that that would continue. Further, if Zouken is dead he would likely not have needed to move out of the Matou house, and thus would still be living at home with his brother and his nephew (Shinji).

nick012000
September 9th, 2011, 07:14 PM
Heh. This reminds me of my response to the thread on TFF, where the board software had displayed it as "With a Little Help from My..." on the main listing of forums, and my immediate thought was to add "Little Pony" onto the end of it.

So, Rin contacts a version of herself that is a unicorn living in Equestria. Hilarity ensues.

shiningphoenix
September 9th, 2011, 07:20 PM
Rin contacts a version of herself who is as helpless with magecraft as she is with technology...

Also, that world's Shirou had Caliburn put in him, making it the sword-in-the-magus, and is now 'Sheath' to Rin-0's Shirou's 'Sword'.

Prince Charon
September 9th, 2011, 10:52 PM
Well, if it's a servant's NP, then it makes sense that it could basically anyone. Who are you thinking of, anyway, who would possess such an NP?

One, the one more likely to be posted, is the (quasi-)Vampire Sakura that I mentioned on TFF. When she found out who the Archer Rin summoned had been, she began working on a Mystic Code that killed vermin, both magical and otherwise, as she knew she qualified for the Berserker class, and thus had a chance of being summoned by her uncle Kariya, in which case she'd be able to save him, and her younger self - and perhaps help Shinji to grow up a happier person.


Oh, also, what is the situation with the Matou family in world-1? Is Zouken still alive (presumably a super-villain...), and what about Kariya and Shinji?

Hadn't decided, but I'm thinking Kariya and Shinji may have more magic circuits than they do in canon (or Shinji is a tech/mystery man hero), and Zouken is the family Arch-Villain, that generations of Matous have fought and defeated, but never quite vanquished. OTOH, since canon Zouken's rather unpleasant personality is so deeply intertwined with the Holy Grail War, perhaps he didn't go nuts like that, and was instead a hero (reinforcing Rin-1's belief that Rin-0 lives in an Evil Mirror Universe).

Either way, Shinji-1 would be disgusted, horrified, and enraged at the way his counterpart treated the counterpart of one of his best friends (basically, I'm imagining Shirou, the Tohsaka sisters, Shinji, and maybe one or two others as an unbreakable Nakama forged in childhood and battle). Shinji-0 should consider himself lucky that Shinji-1 can't get to him... or not, because Rin-1 and Shirou-1 would be quite inclined to relay his ideas to their counterparts.

Mike1984
September 10th, 2011, 01:20 PM
One, the one more likely to be posted, is the (quasi-)Vampire Sakura that I mentioned on TFF.

Eh?

When did you mention her?


When she found out who the Archer Rin summoned had been, she began working on a Mystic Code that killed vermin, both magical and otherwise, as she knew she qualified for the Berserker class, and thus had a chance of being summoned by her uncle Kariya, in which case she'd be able to save him, and her younger self - and perhaps help Shinji to grow up a happier person.

Hmm, yeah, that makes sense.


Hadn't decided, but I'm thinking Kariya and Shinji may have more magic circuits than they do in canon (or Shinji is a tech/mystery man hero), and Zouken is the family Arch-Villain, that generations of Matous have fought and defeated, but never quite vanquished. OTOH, since canon Zouken's rather unpleasant personality is so deeply intertwined with the Holy Grail War, perhaps he didn't go nuts like that, and was instead a hero (reinforcing Rin-1's belief that Rin-0 lives in an Evil Mirror Universe).

Well, if Zouken were a hero, he'd already be dead long before, but I guess that could work.


Either way, Shinji-1 would be disgusted, horrified, and enraged at the way his counterpart treated the counterpart of one of his best friends (basically, I'm imagining Shirou, the Tohsaka sisters, Shinji, and maybe one or two others as an unbreakable Nakama forged in childhood and battle).

Yeah, that makes sense. Having the two Tohsakas, Shinji and Shirou as close friends is always sweet, and demonstrates how much better this world is.


Shinji-0 should consider himself lucky that Shinji-1 can't get to him... or not, because Rin-1 and Shirou-1 would be quite inclined to relay his ideas to their counterparts.

Well, yeah....

shiningphoenix
September 10th, 2011, 01:29 PM
Well, if Zouken were a hero, he'd already be dead long before, but I guess that could work.
Not a hero, just not completely insane; still obsessed with seeing Justica again.

Mike1984
September 10th, 2011, 01:43 PM
Not a hero, just not completely insane; still obsessed with seeing Justica again.

Zouken's only way to remain alive for that long is to eat people. That somewhat precludes him being anything but a villain....

shiningphoenix
September 10th, 2011, 02:13 PM
Zouken's only way to remain alive for that long is to eat people. That somewhat precludes him being anything but a villain....
It's brighter world, maybe he found another way.

Mike1984
September 10th, 2011, 02:16 PM
It's brighter world, maybe he found another way.

If there was "another way", he'd have taken it. After all, he doesn't want to have to eat people to survive, and indeed the whole point of basically everything he does is to not die.

shiningphoenix
September 10th, 2011, 02:21 PM
If there was "another way", he'd have taken it. After all, he doesn't want to have to eat people to survive, and indeed the whole point of basically everything he does is to not die.
Well, what if the way is available in the brighter AU, but not in the evil-mirror-canon world?

Mike1984
September 10th, 2011, 02:27 PM
Well, maybe, but it seems unlikely.

shiningphoenix
September 10th, 2011, 03:28 PM
Well, maybe, but it seems unlikely.
So does magecraft.

Prince Charon
September 10th, 2011, 10:57 PM
Eh?

When did you mention her?
Not sure which thread, but it was one of mine, and it might have been the counterpart of this thread.


Not a hero, just not completely insane; still obsessed with seeing Justica again.
No, my current intention is that he and Justica-1 were great heroes in their era, but eventually died. With no HGW, Justica-1 dies for a totally different reason, possibly after Zouken-1 does.

Inugami
September 10th, 2011, 11:00 PM
Well, honestly I doubt she'd really act on it, she'd just feel happy that her sister had acknowledged her.
Zouken might attempt to use that happiness to break open her fortress of will.

Because he'll ruin anything good.

shiningphoenix
September 11th, 2011, 12:47 AM
Say... Kaleidostick! Now with communication functions!

nick012000
September 11th, 2011, 02:05 AM
If there was "another way", he'd have taken it. After all, he doesn't want to have to eat people to survive, and indeed the whole point of basically everything he does is to not die.
In the Kamen Rider OOOs crossover story I wrote a snippet of the beginning of, he was going to become a Greeed.

Prince Charon
September 11th, 2011, 02:40 AM
Not sure which thread, but it was one of mine, and it might have been the counterpart of this thread.
Correction, it was in 'Mysteries, Memories, and Impossible Enemies', which I haven't posted to this forum, yet.

Mike1984
September 11th, 2011, 09:10 AM
Zouken might attempt to use that happiness to break open her fortress of will.

Because he'll ruin anything good.

I don't think that would work, though, because he needs her to hate Rin in order that she is worried about what she might do in the Grail War.


Not sure which thread, but it was one of mine, and it might have been the counterpart of this thread.

It's definitely not the counterpart to this thread, because I checked. Not sure about anywhere else, though.


No, my current intention is that he and Justica-1 were great heroes in their era, but eventually died. With no HGW, Justica-1 dies for a totally different reason, possibly after Zouken-1 does.

Yeah, that's what I would have said, actually. After all, if you're making the world one in which magi are non-dickish, Zouken is probably a prime example of someone who should be changed. After all, there was a point where he was an OK person (probably no worse than Tokiomi), but his desire to complete the Grail gradually turned him more and more evil.

It would be rather ironic to have the Matous revere him as their greatest hero, in fact, and have Shinji etc, look up to him as an example of what he aspires to be (because, presumably, he is a wannabe Superhero who happens not to be very good at it...).

Also, what about the Einsberns? I mean, the way they treat their homonculi is inherently evil.

shiningphoenix
September 11th, 2011, 12:23 PM
Also, what about the Einsberns? I mean, the way they treat their homonculi is inherently evil.
They can be nice to them in the good-kaleido-verse.

Prince Charon
September 11th, 2011, 02:18 PM
Correction, it was in 'Mysteries, Memories, and Impossible Enemies', which I haven't posted to this forum, yet.
The above was the last post on the previous page, and thus probably went unnoticed.


They can be nice to them in the good-kaleido-verse.
Yes, they could. OTOH, not everyone is good - look at Kirei. They might be morally questionable, but not all obviously evil, or evil but very good at avoiding arrest, with Justica and Irisviel being two of the homunculi that escaped from their clutches.

Then again, maybe they just have good members and bad members, like any other large family. Some treat their homunculi like disposable assets, others like family, or like trusted servants. I'm currently imagining Kiritsugu and Irisviel being a bit like they are in Prima Illya, but more blatantly superheroic (at least when in costume), and not leaving town so often. Sella and Leysritt fall into the 'trusted servants and dear friends' category, but that doesn't mean they won't meet an Einzbern who acts like the canon arseholes. Jubstacheit may well be an example.

EDIT: Maybe the family rules a tiny country in Europe, so as long as the family head doesn't care, the evil ones can be evil, and have diplomatic immunity.

Mike1984
September 11th, 2011, 02:30 PM
They can be nice to them in the good-kaleido-verse.

You can't "nicely" dump someone on a rubbish heap in the middle of the forest....


The above was the last post on the previous page, and thus probably went unnoticed.

I did see it, just not until after I'd posted. I looked now, thanks.


Yes, they could. OTOH, not everyone is good - look at Kirei. They might be morally questionable, but not all obviously evil, or evil but very good at avoiding arrest, with Justica and Irisviel being two of the homunculi that escaped from their clutches.

Then again, maybe they just have good members and bad members, like any other large family. Some treat their homunculi like disposable assets, others like family, or like trusted servants. I'm currently imagining Kiritsugu and Irisviel being a bit like they are in Prima Illya, but more blatantly superheroic (at least when in costume), and not leaving town so often. Sella and Leysritt fall into the 'trusted servants and dear friends' category, but that doesn't mean they won't meet an Einzbern who acts like the canon arseholes. Jubstacheit may well be an example.

Yeah, that figures.

From what I can tell, in this world, it is the Association as an entity that is good, not the magi within it as individuals. After all, if there was no evil in the world, then there would be very little for the superheroes to actually do. But, at the same time, a good Association is not likely to overlook such abuses. Indeed, if they did they'd be no better than the canonical Association (which is pretty much a magical university with no ethical standards and a slight law-making function).


EDIT: Maybe the family rules a tiny country in Europe, so as long as the family head doesn't care, the evil ones can be evil, and have diplomatic immunity.

Diplomatic immunity works against Superheroes?

I can't imagine Kiritsugu, at least, giving a fuck about Diplomatic immunity, and he has a damn good reason to go after them.

Prince Charon
September 11th, 2011, 09:40 PM
Diplomatic immunity works against Superheroes?

I can't imagine Kiritsugu, at least, giving a fuck about Diplomatic immunity, and he has a damn good reason to go after them.
Its more that he can't get any help from the police, and in fact would be in opposition to them no matter how much he wanted to avoid that, so he has to avoid notice if he needs to kill any of them (which is a last resort for this Kiritsugu), and they need to give themselves enough plausible deniability that he isn't sure such-and-so is the one who deserves it. Likewise, he can't go after them in their own country unless he goes in with very heavy stealth, or has inside assistance.

Of course, that doesn't mean he hasn't killed any of them, even in their territory, but Jubstacheit is very good at saving his own skin.

EDIT: Jubstacheit is a fairly controversial figure: he collaborated with the Nazis, but so did a lot of other people. There was a death camp on his land, and some Einzberns worked there, but he himself did not, as far as the official records are concerned. He did help a few Jews to escape, and claimed to have wanted to save more, but they were the least experimentally interesting ones, and a lot of people suspect he just saw the way the wind was blowing, and wanted an out in case the Nazis lost the war. (In fact, he looked at the numbers in December of 1941 (America could fight a two front war, and win, just by piling up supplies and tipping them over on the enemy; this was a clear fact that the Axis powers ignored), figured out that the Third Reich was doomed, and decided to save himself, and his territory.)

Mike1984
September 12th, 2011, 05:46 AM
Its more that he can't get any help from the police, and in fact would be in opposition to them no matter how much he wanted to avoid that, so he has to avoid notice if he needs to kill any of them (which is a last resort for this Kiritsugu), and they need to give themselves enough plausible deniability that he isn't sure such-and-so is the one who deserves it. Likewise, he can't go after them in their own country unless he goes in with very heavy stealth, or has inside assistance.

Well, yeah, I guess that it is true that, for a hero, having the police against you is a pain in the ass even if you don't give a fuck about the law, because you can't harm them and, further, there is the risk of the government ostracising you as a result.

As for killing them, whilst killing is definitely a last resort, in the case of a villain like that it's clearly justified. If they are beyond the reach of the law and, indeed, hiding behind their position of power, then they deserve everything they get, just like all dictators do. Plus, there is a big difference between killing an innocent person (even if they are dangerous) or someone who can be saved and killing someone who is clearly never going to be rehabilitiated and who kills people willingly and for their own selfish ends.


Of course, that doesn't mean he hasn't killed any of them, even in their territory, but Jubstacheit is very good at saving his own skin.

Yeah, that figures. Although, really, that should definitely be a mission for Shirou, Sakura, Rin and the rest at some point. Certainly they should at least be attempting to save as many of Ilya's "sisters" as they can from the fate that Acht has in store for them.


EDIT: Jubstacheit is a fairly controversial figure: he collaborated with the Nazis, but so did a lot of other people. There was a death camp on his land, and some Einzberns worked there, but he himself did not, as far as the official records are concerned. He did help a few Jews to escape, and claimed to have wanted to save more, but they were the least experimentally interesting ones, and a lot of people suspect he just saw the way the wind was blowing, and wanted an out in case the Nazis lost the war. (In fact, he looked at the numbers in December of 1941 (America could fight a two front war, and win, just by piling up supplies and tipping them over on the enemy; this was a clear fact that the Axis powers ignored), figured out that the Third Reich was doomed, and decided to save himself, and his territory.)

Yeah, that sounds about right. He would clearly support whichever side favoured his own interests, and if the Nazis showed up I doubt he'd have much of a choice but to go along with their schemes as long as they were in charge of the country.

shiningphoenix
September 12th, 2011, 10:35 AM
Yeah, that sounds about right. He would clearly support whichever side favoured his own interests, and if the Nazis showed up I doubt he'd have much of a choice but to go along with their schemes as long as they were in charge of the country.
More of the first, less of the second I would think; Magi have been hiding for longer than that, and if that doesn't work he could always just start putting the souls of the leaders into taxidermy, or have a homunculus do a very early summoning for the 4th grail war, or...

Mike1984
September 12th, 2011, 11:08 AM
Well, whilst he could indeed have avoided co-operating with them if he'd really wanted to, it would have meant risking losing his land, at very least temporarily and quite possibly permanently.

shiningphoenix
September 12th, 2011, 11:56 AM
it would have meant risking losing his land, at very least temporarily and quite possibly permanently.
I have some serious doubts about that.

Mike1984
September 12th, 2011, 12:20 PM
Well, the danger was there, at least, and it's not likely that he's going to give a fuck about who he hurts to protect it.

shiningphoenix
September 12th, 2011, 03:05 PM
Well, the danger was there, at least, and it's not likely that he's going to give a fuck about who he hurts to protect it.
I think it's more likely that he saw some benefit from it.

Mike1984
September 12th, 2011, 05:12 PM
Yeah, not getting his country taken off him by the Nazis....

shiningphoenix
September 12th, 2011, 05:22 PM
Yeah, not getting his country taken off him by the Nazis....
Being on a snowy mountain and having magical powers of suggestion can do wonders for getting people to not bother with you...

Prince Charon
September 13th, 2011, 03:00 AM
Yeah, not getting his country taken off him by the Nazis....
Also, the Nazis delivered experimental subjects right to his disposable grandchildren - remember, he only helped the least interesting ones escape. Mossad is kind of iffy about him, uncertain if he's a war criminal to be killed, or a good man put in a horrible situation. If Kiritsugu-1 ever found good enough proof of what he'd been doing and planning, Mossad would absolutley help take him down.

I'm starting to think I should start a thread for Rin-1's world, but I'm not sure what to call it.

Mike1984
September 13th, 2011, 11:09 AM
Also, the Nazis delivered experimental subjects right to his disposable grandchildren - remember, he only helped the least interesting ones escape.

True.

The basic priniciple still applies, though. He was interested in his own survival and advancement, nothing more.


Mossad is kind of iffy about him, uncertain if he's a war criminal to be killed, or a good man put in a horrible situation. If Kiritsugu-1 ever found good enough proof of what he'd been doing and planning, Mossad would absolutley help take him down.

Yeah, that figures. I mean, it's not like Mossad are exactly renowned for giving a fuck about international law (although I'm not sure even they would kidnap the head of state of another country) or, even, human rights, especially when it comes to taking down bastards like Acht.


I'm starting to think I should start a thread for Rin-1's world, but I'm not sure what to call it.

It would be interesting to read about, certainly, and it'd be nice to see Sakura and her friends in a situation where she's actually happy.

SeiKeo
September 13th, 2011, 11:38 AM
Yeah, that figures. I mean, it's not like Mossad are exactly renowned for giving a fuck about international law (although I'm not sure even they would kidnap the head of state of another country) or, even, human rights, especially when it comes to taking down bastards like Acht.

Kidnapping heads of state if necessary sounds kind of exactly like the Mossad to me, heh.

Mike1984
September 13th, 2011, 11:40 AM
Kidnapping heads of state if necessary sounds kind of exactly like the Mossad to me, heh.

Well, I can certainly imagine Mossad doing it, but I suspect that even the Israeli government isn't quite that stupid as to order such a move, at least not without a very good reason for doing so. Regardless of his guilt, kidnapping the head of state of another country is almost certain to get them ostracised.

shiningphoenix
September 13th, 2011, 02:56 PM
I'm starting to think I should start a thread for Rin-1's world, but I'm not sure what to call it.

Fate/Super Heroes? Fate/Kaleid Heroes? Fate/Kaleid Heroism? Fate-1? The Adventures of Emiya-Man, Superhero?

reborn214
September 13th, 2011, 03:21 PM
Operation X how Emiya's harem tries to keep him away from Luvia

shiningphoenix
September 13th, 2011, 05:49 PM
"No, you are the evil kaleido-universe"

Prince Charon
September 13th, 2011, 10:57 PM
Fate/Super Heroes? Fate/Kaleid Heroes? Fate/Kaleid Heroism? Fate-1? The Adventures of Emiya-Man, Superhero?
Well, not the last one, but I do need noms-de-costume for them.

I'm getting ready to post another thread, based on a comment I made in the Mahou Senki thread, about a Shirou whose Origin and Element are Fire. I'm thinking of calling that one Fate/burn forever or Fate/eternal flame. (EDIT: Going with Fate/phoenix burning, instead.)

There's a reason my title on TFF is 'Annoyingly slow writer, with to many ideas.'

EDIT: Correction: it was in Fate/Night Sky, not Mahou Senki.

"A Shirou who was healed without Avalon, and who's Origin is Fire. He still develops a Reality Marble, but it looks like an eternal conflagration. The Great Fire of Fuyuki still burns in his soul. "

The question is, what was used to heal him? IIRC, there are some magic system in fiction and/or gaming that have healing associated with the element of Fire, but I'm not sure such a magic system would be plausible in the Nasuverse.

Perhaps he was saved by a mundane hospital, after a SAR worker found him? Maybe a minor magus, using formalcraft?

Prince Charon
September 22nd, 2011, 08:25 AM
Here's another thought: Would the knowledge that Rin acknowledged and loved her change who Sakura summoned, or if still Medusa, perhaps the class?

Suppose Rin rescued her before Sakura summoned anyone, but after Sakura was chosen as a Master. Would that change her Servant?

shiningphoenix
September 22nd, 2011, 09:10 AM
I don't think Medusa's class would change as a result; changing the servant sounds plausible.

Mike1984
September 22nd, 2011, 09:17 AM
Here's another thought: Would the knowledge that Rin acknowledged and loved her change who Sakura summoned, or if still Medusa, perhaps the class?

I don't see why. For one thing, Zouken apparently had a catalyst for Rider.


Suppose Rin rescued her before Sakura summoned anyone, but after Sakura was chosen as a Master. Would that change her Servant?

It's quite possible, yes. I'm not sure who she would get, though.

Prince Charon
September 22nd, 2011, 10:53 AM
I don't see why. For one thing, Zouken apparently had a catalyst for Rider.
Did not know that. I've seen a lot of people commenting that Sakura and Rider Medusa were well-matched, and stating or implying that that's why she got Medusa.

Mike1984
September 22nd, 2011, 11:00 AM
Did not know that. I've seen a lot of people commenting that Sakura and Rider Medusa were well-matched, and stating or implying that that's why she got Medusa.

That's because that was what we used to believe, before one of the side-material books explicitly stated otherwise. Whilst I personally see it as a huge co-incidence that Zouken just happened to find a catalyst for a servant who almost perfectly matched Sakura's personality (to the point that Shirou actually comments on it in HF, in a way that makes it clear that he believed that they were master and servant because they were similar), and it's probably a blatent retcon, it doesn't contradict the game, and thus it's canon.

Larekko12
September 22nd, 2011, 02:24 PM
But that retarded as all fuck. Why would Zouken want a Servant that could and would Sympathise with her and not put the Grail ahead of everything?

VelspertheCat
September 22nd, 2011, 02:25 PM
Zouken is the goof up worm.

shiningphoenix
September 22nd, 2011, 02:29 PM
Zouken is the goof up worm.
You are what you eat, and he ate Sakura's Tohsakaness.

VelspertheCat
September 22nd, 2011, 02:34 PM
This answers many of my questions about Zouken now.

Mike1984
September 22nd, 2011, 02:34 PM
But that retarded as all fuck. Why would Zouken want a Servant that could and would Sympathise with her and not put the Grail ahead of everything?

Because Medusa isn't exactly known for being a hot chick with a soft spot for abused young girls....

Neir
September 22nd, 2011, 03:04 PM
Some legends portray as being very attractive actually. Just not the majority of them. And she never really got a chance to interact with abused young girls outside of sacrifices, iirc.

Mike1984
September 22nd, 2011, 03:06 PM
Perhaps, but it's hardly the general perception of her, so Zouken's mistake is somewhat understandable.

Neir
September 22nd, 2011, 03:09 PM
Did Zouken even prepare a catalyst? Who DID prepare one, outside of the Einzberns? We don't know about Caster's Master. I think Bazett's lineage may have been involved (or something else she brought with her)... Archer, not intentional. Saber, not intentional. I feel like I'm forgetting someone.

reborn214
September 22nd, 2011, 03:10 PM
Isn't it sad Hassanchin and Kojirochin?

Neir
September 22nd, 2011, 03:12 PM
Sasaki couldn't have a catalyst, he didn't exist... and hassan... fuck if I know.

VelspertheCat
September 22nd, 2011, 03:13 PM
Hassan is Hassan's own catalyst (stupid Grail War rules)

Mike1984
September 22nd, 2011, 03:29 PM
Did Zouken even prepare a catalyst?

According to Nasu, yes.

And, yes, I agree entirely that it's stupid....

Neir
September 22nd, 2011, 03:30 PM
... and... do you happen to know what it is? Or did Nasu say 'lol he had one' and then not say what it is?

Larekko12
September 22nd, 2011, 03:31 PM
Medusa is a forsaken child who was devoted to her parents and a rape victim turned tyke bomb through corruption.

Dark Sakura is a forsaken Child who was devoted to her family, and a rape victim turned tyke bomb through corruption and bitternes in life.

Mike1984
September 22nd, 2011, 05:55 PM
... and... do you happen to know what it is? Or did Nasu say 'lol he had one' and then not say what it is?

Apparently it was a mirror of some kind. I don't remember the details, though.

2ndsly
September 23rd, 2011, 11:55 AM
Well if it's a retcon, then the details aren't terribly important.

Z-leach used some object for the summoning.
It's all too easy to just say; No, Madusa matched Sakura. , or Yes, Z-leach has catylisk(sp) but now that things have changed it won't be used.

The correction from the pamphlet is so arbitrary that the information can be manipulated to the authors content. It's en easier to do so because anyone who hasn't read the pamphlet will beleave that the WOG element is AU.

food
September 23rd, 2011, 05:54 PM
Did Zouken even prepare a catalyst? Who DID prepare one, outside of the Einzberns? We don't know about Caster's Master. I think Bazett's lineage may have been involved (or something else she brought with her)... Archer, not intentional. Saber, not intentional. I feel like I'm forgetting someone.

Bazett used her pair of runic ear rings as catalyst.


Sasaki couldn't have a catalyst, he didn't exist... and hassan... fuck if I know.
It was the Ryudo Temple itself. He had ties to the Temple when he was alive.


Apparently it was a mirror of some kind. I don't remember the details, though.
It's a mirror from a temple in Etruria.

VelspertheCat
September 23rd, 2011, 05:59 PM
Hassan had ties to Ryudo Temple?

food
September 23rd, 2011, 06:01 PM
Sasaki.

Hassan was summoned because the class is Catalyst. In Zouken's case, a dead Assassin class Servant.

Cubia - the - Anti-Existence
September 24th, 2011, 01:50 AM
That's because that was what we used to believe, before one of the side-material books explicitly stated otherwise. Whilst I personally see it as a huge co-incidence that Zouken just happened to find a catalyst for a servant who almost perfectly matched Sakura's personality (to the point that Shirou actually comments on it in HF, in a way that makes it clear that he believed that they were master and servant because they were similar), and it's probably a blatent retcon, it doesn't contradict the game, and thus it's canon.


Because Medusa isn't exactly known for being a hot chick with a soft spot for abused young girls....

It's also possible that the mirror was a catalyst for multiple heroic spirits and Sakura simply got the most appropriate one. The complete material translations say it was a mirror associated with an old greek earth goddess. Theres probably half a dozen old greek earth goddessess and even more heroic spirits asociated with them.

Considering most of the greek heroes were assholes Zouken fortunately for everyone else just got unlucky.

Mike1984
September 24th, 2011, 03:34 PM
Considering most of the greek heroes were assholes Zouken fortunately for everyone else just got unlucky.

Actually, Rider served him rather well, because her wish to protect Sakura led her to fight for Shinji even when most servants would have cut him into tiny pieces. It's only towards the end of HF that he lost out, and I'm not sure most other servants would have been any more willing to support Dark Sakura than Rider was, honestly.

shiningphoenix
September 24th, 2011, 06:57 PM
Does there exist an alternate universe where the Tohsakas don't have a goof-up gene?

Mike1984
September 24th, 2011, 07:00 PM
Dunno.

I guess that, if there did, Sakura would be living happily alongside her sister and Zouken would be long-dead after Tokiomi realised his true intentions towards his daughter....

2ndsly
September 25th, 2011, 05:11 PM
No that can't happen. If they were lucky enough to lose their biggest flaw, you know they'd gain something else to even it up again. They're just not That lucky.


Wait a minute!
I just figured it out!
It's not a goof up gene. They just have horrible Luck scores.

Mike1984
September 25th, 2011, 05:33 PM
Oh, come on, give Sakura a chance....

Ergast
September 25th, 2011, 06:25 PM
Well, sakura confirms that they have shitty luck. She is the epitome of said shitty luck.

Mike1984
September 25th, 2011, 06:27 PM
Well, Sakura is more of a demonstration of the Tohsaka ability to fuck things up horribly. Her father wanted her to be able to learn magic so she wouldn't be turned into an experiment, and ended up just handing her directly to the experimenter.

lethum
September 25th, 2011, 06:37 PM
What a shitty life Sakkura has, huh?

So unlucky...

SeiKeo
September 25th, 2011, 06:40 PM
Isn't it sad, Sakura. (?)

Mike1984
September 25th, 2011, 06:42 PM
Well, yeah, definitely. Although, in HF at least she does get some (long overdue) luck....

2ndsly
September 25th, 2011, 06:44 PM
Oh, come on, give Sakura a chance....

I have No problems with giving Sakura a chance. It's just that this diagnosis fits the symptoms best.

(Everything important in life, I learned from Dr. House)


Still, maybe somewhere (far far away within Kaleidoscope) there exists a Tohsaka clan with decent, not good but decent, Luck Scores.




Also, even a broken phantasm is nessisary two times a day. Even with the Worst luck imaginable, you can still get through life. And RPG's too.

Mike1984
September 25th, 2011, 06:53 PM
I have No problems with giving Sakura a chance. It's just that this diagnosis fits the symptoms best.

Not really. Her problem is that she was handed over to a monster by her moron of a father, which is due to his goof-up gene, not her shitty luck. From that point on, her life has probably gone better than you'd expect, given that she had an asshole like Zouken controlling her. In particular, if she was truly unlucky, she would not have happened to see Shirou jumping the BAR....

2ndsly
September 25th, 2011, 06:57 PM
..
....
......
darn
There goes that theory.


Agreed, there is no way Sakura should have made it through what she did, as sane as she did.

Ergast
September 25th, 2011, 07:10 PM
Here comes a throwing save to your theory.

Shirou's BAR rank is way higher than low is Sakura's luck. And it should have some "Tohsaka's attention atraction", as both sister watched him at the same time. So it overruled Sakura's shitty luck. Also, keep in mind that the Tohsakas can manage almost everything except when it comes to the most important thing. In that moment, Sakura's most important thing was get free, so watching Shirou and thus having some hope was just the second most important thing, and that's why she managed to watch Shirou in the right moment.

SeiKeo
September 25th, 2011, 07:11 PM
Not really. Her problem is that she was handed over to a monster by her moron of a father, which is due to his goof-up gene, not her shitty luck. From that point on, her life has probably gone better than you'd expect, given that she had an asshole like Zouken controlling her. In particular, if she was truly unlucky, she would not have happened to see Shirou jumping the BAR....

Of course, this is actually unlucky if it happens to be Fate or UBW...

Mike1984
September 25th, 2011, 07:15 PM
Of course, this is actually unlucky if it happens to be Fate or UBW...

Not really. It still gave her at least some happiness, and even if they're not in a relationship Shirou will likely still be an important part of her life. Plus, in UBW it gives her the possibility of getting back into contact with her sister too.

2ndsly
September 25th, 2011, 07:20 PM
1 out of 3 routs we Know she's happy.




YEEEESSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
IT ALIVE!!!


Still.
No, it's not pretty, No, it's not happy. It's just the ugly truth.
Tohsaka Luck Scores are low.
(I state again. Everything important in life, I learned from Dr. House.)

Luckily, luck isn't everything.


Edit: It's also possible it's Shiro's luck giving her possible good endings.

Ergast
September 25th, 2011, 07:47 PM
...

Sweet, my post has been ignored.

I already said that about Shirou, 2ndsly... (with other words, true, but still)

2ndsly
September 25th, 2011, 08:26 PM
I was restating it.


Luck Scores:
Roll 1 D6.
Add 3 to that number.

If you are a member of the Tohsaka family: divide your score by 3, and round down. The lowest score permissible is 1 .

If your username is 2ndsly: your score is a flat 4, no rolling allowed. Every turn, alternate adding and subtracting D3 to your score.

Prince Charon
September 25th, 2011, 10:32 PM
I had this thought, that I'm not sure is good or bad: Rin-3 is about 12 or 13, and sounds to the other Rins and Shirous as if she's voiced by Kugimiya Rie (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9C0xA4FpEk), who has the same reputation in their timelines as she does in our timeline.

Prince Charon
November 4th, 2011, 11:46 AM
OK, so, unless someone comes up with a better name in the next day or two, I plan to post Rin-1's world under the title Fate/comic book.

If anyone is wondering about the Ilya of that TL, she's there, as per Prisma Illya, but that might not be her hero-name (still, maybe it is). I'm thinking since there's no Holy Grail War in this TL, she's a bit different, one element being that she looks her age. Given that the Shinji of this world is a pretty nice guy (well, as long as you don't hurt his Nakama), I was thinking Illya's with him, rather than joining the group trying to get into her brother's pants.

Also, came up with a way for Shinji to talk to himself: Rin-0 stabs Shinji-0 with the Jewel Dagger Tohsaka Rin (not necessarily anywhere fatal), and supplies the prana for the connection, so Shinji-1 can express his opinions to Shinji-0. Might lead to Shinji killing himself, though Shinji-1 will survive.

2ndsly
November 4th, 2011, 11:51 AM
Fate/Comic, it looks better without the extra word and capitalized.
Fate/Manga
Fate/Heroes



Your jeweled sword stabbing idea would put the necessary components in place, but it would need more.
Think of it as installing the hardware but not the software. Course, this is easily hand waved away.

shiningphoenix
November 4th, 2011, 01:13 PM
Rin-2 is still getting used to her new nature. She has begun to develop some succubus-like traits, [...]. There may be other odd quirks, as its an unusual situation, and Sakura-2 was insane at the time, on top of that.

"I think I see an opportunity to jump in..."

Prince Charon
November 4th, 2011, 02:31 PM
Fate/Comic, it looks better without the extra word and capitalized.
Fate/Manga
Fate/Heroes
'Comic' without 'book' is potentially misleading (though I might use it anyway), and 'Manga' and 'Heroes' are not descriptive enough.


Your jeweled sword stabbing idea would put the necessary components in place, but it would need more.
Think of it as installing the hardware but not the software. Course, this is easily hand waved away.
OK, lets handwave that.


"I think I see an opportunity to jump in..."
Well, I doubt Shirou or Ayako would be all that inclined to refuse.

shiningphoenix
November 4th, 2011, 02:48 PM
'Comic' without 'book' is potentially misleading (though I might use it anyway), and 'Manga' and 'Heroes' are not descriptive enough.

Fate/Superheroes


OK, lets handwave that.
What if Rin-1 shows Shinji-1 how to force the connection open?


Well, I doubt Shirou or Ayako would be all that inclined to refuse.
"We will have many wonderfully sexy times together. Now where did I put the ropes..."

2ndsly
November 4th, 2011, 02:57 PM
I like Fate/Superheroes

I said easy enough to hand-wave because its MAGIC.
While their is an underlying logic, to the uninitiated it makes no sense. This allows you to hand nearly any situation any manner you like.

meh That's a paragraph of nothing.
Correct me if im wrong, but wasn't the connection accidental?
Though I suppose they may have been studying the connection.

Prince Charon
November 6th, 2011, 09:14 PM
Correct me if im wrong, but wasn't the connection accidental?
Though I suppose they may have been studying the connection.
Where did you get the idea that the connection was accidental? It was intentional on the part of CERN-1 - or did you mean that where Rin-0 connected to was uncontrolled? The mind of the person activating the Dagger determines the location.

Anyway, I've started that thread, so discussion focusing on Rin-1's Earth should go there (http://forums.nrvnqsr.com/showthread.php/1274-Fate-comic-book-an-Open-Idea). Sorry about the title, I meant to change it, but couldn't decide which of several suggestions to use.

2ndsly
November 6th, 2011, 09:28 PM
meh
My mistake, it's been awhile since I first read through this.