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MZeroX
September 7th, 2011, 06:19 AM
The last time a mahjong thread was made, it didn't seem like there were any new players. This thread's opening purpose is a visual aid to hopeful beginners, introducing Japanese Riichi Mahjong in the Ari-Ari style. All this means is that common "local" or "house" rules will also be introduced. These rules introduce a little more chance and may increase the pace of play, which increases casual play enjoyment. These rules will also be isolated later on for those who wish to play using the more rigid tourney style rules.

Now with links to other posts relevant to the rules!
The Introduction (http://forums.nrvnqsr.com/showthread.php/1004-Zero-s-Guide-to-Riichi-Reach-Mahjong-rules-points-and-general-discussion?p=319715&viewfull=1#post319715)
Within The Introduction, there are quite a few different topics. All Hail f3 or whatever your search command is (Search I00#, there ya go). Anyways, the topics parsed out are as follows:


Tiles (I001) - Well, These are the tiles.



Hand Formation Basics (I002) - Yep, that's how we play.



Calls (I003) - Because this is how some people like the game



Riichi and Yaku (I004) - The Defining point for Riichi mahjong. Dora is touched upon in this section.



Winning (I005) - This is how you win the game.



Oh Yeah, Question. (I006) - Because I went narration, this section is more on the limits of dora.



Setting Up and Payment Types (I007) - Wall Building and all that jazz.

List of Yaku w/ differences between Allowed/Not Allowed rule sets (http://forums.nrvnqsr.com/showthread.php/1004-Zero-s-Guide-to-Riichi-Reach-Mahjong-rules-points-and-general-discussion?p=319724&viewfull=1#post319724) - Refer here for Yaku Tables, Fu Counting, Han Counting, and score tables.

The Set Up (http://forums.nrvnqsr.com/showthread.php/1004-Zero-s-Guide-to-Riichi-Reach-Mahjong-rules-points-and-general-discussion?p=324561&viewfull=1#post324561) - Point Stick discussion and distribution. Also In-Game Deposits, Penalties, and Bonuses section (riichi, honba/renchan, proportionality winnings, chombo, and noten)

Washouts (http://forums.nrvnqsr.com/showthread.php/1004-Zero-s-Guide-to-Riichi-Reach-Mahjong-rules-points-and-general-discussion?p=345416&viewfull=1#post345416) - How the game ends if no one wins. Special cases of force draws, etc.


After the opening posts, I encourage questions, discussion about possible tactics, and most importantly I hope that people will use this thread as a means of setting up matches and playing with each other. Mahjong is a multiplayer game, so getting people together is what this is all about. There are FREE to use online sites, such as tenhou.net, where we can play against each other even with large physical location problems. In fact, I encourage the use of tenhou.net, since there is a tab which allows you to look at games you've participated in. Asking about how to do things or what went wrong using this is a great way to improve, and even learn. Online matches in the non-zero lobbies, where we can isolate ourselves to have matches among ourselves (members of beast's lair and maybe other friends), is also the reason for the sticky. Hope everyone interested can enjoy themselves~
We'll use this lobby for online matches, unless you have another preference (in which case, speak up and we can vote) :
http://tenhou.net/0/?L7776

For those who need help logging into Tenhou, this (http://www.osamuko.com/complete-beginners-guide-to-online-mahjong-part-1-how-to-play/complete-beginners-guide-to-online-mahjong-part-1-5-playing-on-tenhou/) is pretty helpful.
For more details on the Tenhou engine and interface, including replay data, etc., this (http://arcturus.su/tenhou) should be quite helpful too.
Anyways, let's get going on this introduction to Japanese Riichi Mahjong.

http://i51.tinypic.com/egygjs.jpg

Training Links for Yaku Mastery and Scoring are in the 2nd post

Assisting (doing all of the actual work for) me for the first portion of this instruction will be Ayumu, the resident Mahjong deity representing Love and Peace.
http://i55.tinypic.com/dws2vq.jpg
Is everyone ready~?

*disclaimer: I can't read moonrunes, so these aren't actual translations. I tried to listen properly for the names/categories, but Yui Sakakibara's hilariously erotic voice (hilarious being the part that matters right now) means it won't necessarily be sounded out properly. I'll eventually edit more "proper" names in if this thread actually survives.*
(I001)
TILES


First, let's look at the tiles used in play:
http://i53.tinypic.com/15nm92w.jpg
Pretty, huh?

It's too overwhelming to just try to learn all of them at once. So let's start with the suits,shuuhai/shuupai like with a deck of cards.
http://i54.tinypic.com/10f7rpy.jpg
Numbering 1-9 in three suits, from the top they are manzu (Chinese characters), pinzu (circles, dots, etc.), and souzu[/i] (bamboo, with the exception of number 1 being a bird--don't ask, it just is). In the middle of play, pinzu and souzu are easy to figure out--just count the number of dots or bamboo, remembering the bird for 1 of souzu.
Counting only really helps in manzu up to the number 4--1 has a single line, 2 has two lines, 3 has three lines, and 4 has 4 vertical lines sandwiched between two horizontal lines. 5 is the messiest of the manzu, so that is one way to remember it. 6 looks kinda like a stick person running, so I remember it as a person--1 head, 1 torso, 2 arms, 2 legs, for a total of 6 things. 7, 8, and 9 are harder, but there is a way to remember them. This is Beast's Lair, and Nanaya fans abound. 7 here is the same as Nanaya's seven. Or, you could think of it as a sloppy upside-down cursive Arabic seven. 8 and 9 I don't really have anything to help you memorize with by themselves, but as the left over tiles, 8 has less "strokes" than 9.
Pronunciation of these tiles are a simple affixing the number at the respective defining feature of the suits. 1=ii, 2=ryan, 3=san, 4=suu, 5=uu, 6=ryuu/lo, 7=chii, 8=paa, 9=chuu; manzu->wan, pinzu->pin, souzu->sou. The only exceptions to this naming rule are 4 of the souzu, 2,3,4, and 8. These aren't really glaring exceptions, but rather pronunciation conventions. Ryansou becomes ryanzou, sansou becomes sanzou, suusou becomes sussou, paasou becomes passou.

Next are the honors tiles, tsuupai/tsuuhai. You can think of these as like "jokers" in a deck of cards, but have a more pronounced usage.
http://i.imgur.com/JAVJx.png

Altogether, that means there are 3 suits x 9 numbers for suits + 7 for honors giving us a total of 34 different tiles.
http://i52.tinypic.com/2dlk9oj.jpg

There are four of each tile, giving a total of 136 tiles.
http://i51.tinypic.com/xfx9ub.jpg
Just remember, there are only 34 different tiles, and the rest are copies. A deck of cards has 52-54 different cards, depending on if jokers are included or not. This task is looking less daunting already, hopefully.

I'm sure you've already noticed, but the honors tiles are divided into two parts:
http://i56.tinypic.com/2hdtlwx.jpg

First are the Four Winds tiles
http://i51.tinypic.com/k4y03n.jpg
from left to right, East (Ton), South (Nan), West (Xia), North (Pei).

Last are the Three Dragons tiles
http://i54.tinypic.com/vq455h.jpg
from left to right, White/Blank (Haku), Green (Hatsu), Red (Chun)

Now that you know what all of the tiles are called, let's get onto the game.

(I002)
Hand Formation Basics


A basic working hand in mahjong consists of 13 tiles, and completed basic hand in mahjong consists of 14 tiles. That is, each player sits with 13 tiles, and takes turns drawing and discarding a tile. We will take a look at the composition of a completed hand, since a working hand doesn't progress if you don't know what to aim for.
http://i54.tinypic.com/34qkykg.jpg
4 sets of 3 tiles (mentsu) and a pair/head (atama) make up a winning hand.

let's look at some examples of mentsu.
http://i53.tinypic.com/15yt1th.jpg

of these, let's first take a look at the left column.
http://i55.tinypic.com/2mnhkid.jpg
this type of set is called shuntsu, also called a straight or sequence. you can only make shuntsu in threes, meaning no 1234. of course, you can can have a 123456, but it counts as two sets, not one.

let's look at some restrictions on shuntsu
http://i56.tinypic.com/2qtjtr4.jpg
shuntsu are restricted to staying within the respective suit, and only in increasing order. for those with difficulty on manzu numbering, refer back to second tutorial image, or the 4th image and captions in this post. this shows that while 567 is allowed, 912 is not allowed. Also, the tsuuhai don't form shuntsu ever.

now let's look at the other mentsu
http://i54.tinypic.com/29li92u.jpg
these are 3 of a kinds, koutsu. 4 of a kind is also possible, and falls under koutsu as well, but more will be said on this later.

a winning hand is such made up of 4 mentsu, with each mentsu being either shuntsu or koutsu.
http://i51.tinypic.com/2r615s5.jpg
the only part without discussion is the head or pair. from it's name alone, it should easy enough to figure out what it is.

These are the basic structures of hand making. Now let's move onto a critical part of making hands.

(I003)
Calls


Other than drawing tiles, it is possible to build your hand using the discards of other players. There is also a special call required for the 4 of a kind koutsu.
http://i54.tinypic.com/14e1aft.jpg
These calls are pon, chii, and kan. It should be noted that using calls to complete a mentsu is exactly that--you can only call if you're one tile away from completing the mentsu.

First we will look at pon and chii.
http://i52.tinypic.com/30vp2f7.jpg
Note that these are examples, so any shuuhai falls under these terms.

Pon is the completing of a koutsu.
http://i53.tinypic.com/202iiq.jpg
this is shown by the upper diagram using the manzu: iiwan.

Chii is the completing of a shuntsu.
http://i56.tinypic.com/2ijguih.jpg
this is shown by the lower diagram using the souzu: sanzou, sussou, and uusou.
Chii has an inconvenient restriction, which will be noted later in the Setting Up section

These two are the basic calls.
http://i52.tinypic.com/157gqz9.jpg
It should be noted that calls can only happen on the most immediate of discards--once a new tile is drawn, all discarded tiles are "dead" and sit there to be gawked at for the rest of the hand.

Now let's look at the special call, Kan.
http://i56.tinypic.com/wvwo40.jpg
Like with pon, you have to collect the same tile in your hand before making this call. Displayed here, you must already have 3 tiles in your hand before declaring kan.

Let's look at the top row kan more closely.
http://i51.tinypic.com/152j7zs.jpg
this type of kan is made by collecting 3 of the 4 tiles, and calling the 4th tile. this is called a minkan. This distinction is necessary for the scoring system.

Now let's look at the bottom row kan more closely.
http://i55.tinypic.com/21o7cyg.jpg
this type of kan is made when you collect all 4 of the tiles on your own draws. this is called an ankan.

Ankan are the luckiest and most useful/versatile of the kan calls.
http://i54.tinypic.com/13zd6ds.jpg
Even though it is technically a call, unlike other calls, your hand remains considered "closed". This is a very powerful distinction for scoring. It also looks cool, since you get to turn tiles over.

Minkan are still pretty rare, and have many perks in ari-ari rules.
http://i55.tinypic.com/2rc7vwg.jpg
This minkan shown is made by collecting 3 tiles and then calling on the 4th. This is called a daiminkan. This distinction isn't really necessary outside of a very obscure and rarely used rule, but since is great, they're calling it that.

Minkan can also be made through the use of Pon.
http://i52.tinypic.com/157ns3m.jpg
after collecting two tiles, it is possible to declare pon on the third. then, drawing the 4th tile, you can promote the pon into a kan. it has the same end effect as a daiminkan, but promoting a pon into a kan comes with a risk--if the promotion tile is someone's winning tile, they can call your promotion and effectively steal the tile you drew yourself. It is also possible to already have 3 of the tiles, but declare pon only and save the 4th for either shuntsu or delaying the call of kan.

There is a restriction on the promotion of pon into kan.
http://i53.tinypic.com/2rothlg.jpg
This isn't a special rule, but rather the application of the rules on calling in general. If you've already declared pon, that mentsu is already exposed. As such, if someone discards the 4th tile, you cannot call that tile to make a kan--this would make your koutsu made of two tiles self drawn, and two tiles recycled from other players. Called mentsu can only have 1 recycled tile.

These are the three methods of arriving at the kan call.
http://i52.tinypic.com/2dcbfrs.jpg
All kans have a special function. Since you are turning a mentsu, which is usually 3 tiles, into a 4 tile set, the rest of your hand will now be lacking. To compensate, a player declaring kan is allowed to draw an extra tile from the stack of tiles at the end of the game that you usually are not allowed to touch--the dead wall or king's treasure. If you happen to complete your winning hand by the dead wall draw, your hand increases in point value. This chance would be a reason to take the risk of holding onto the 4th tile and only calling pon, instead of making an immediate daiminkan. Risk management is the game, here.

These are all of the "hand building" calls in the game. Increasing points has been mentioned in passing, so let's move onto that.

(I004)
Riichi and Yaku


In riichi mahjong, scoring is not a simple addition system. It uses a base score and multiplier count to calculate hand values. Granted, higher multiplier scores far exceed the allotted point values in a game, so for hands of 5 multipliers or more, predetermined scores are listed. Also, since base score can only go so high, and for ease of play, "calculated" point hands are also easy to fit in a table. Discussion on base score and a table of values for hands will be given their own section later. This section will be about discussing multiplier points, fan. Fan are awarded in set amounts by meeting certain conditions with your hand. These conditions are called yaku.

First, we will go over the yaku that makes riichi mahjong riichi mahjong--Riichi.
http://i56.tinypic.com/33oqmaf.jpg
Riichi is the lovely engrish version of the word "reach". In other words, declaring "riichi" means you're telling your opponents that you've reached tenpai. Tenpai is the state of your 13 tiles ready and waiting for your winning 14th tile (15th-18th tile if you're using kan). This image shows a hand about to be in tenpai--14 tiles in hand, discarding either the sussou (4 of bamboo) or ryuusou/losou (6 of bamboo), the upcoming working hand will be waiting on uusou, or sussou and passou, respectively. In the former, uusou will complete the 456 shuntsu while in the latter, sussou or passou will complete the 444 or 888 koutsu, with 88 or 44 becoming the atama.

Declaring Riichi--the deposit
http://i.imgur.com/1MmOk.png
After proclaiming to all of your enemies that you're ready to sink their battle ships if they make one false move or you get lucky, you have to put your money where your mouth is. After declaring riichi, you throw down a 1000 point (from here on, ten; so as to not confuse other point values) counter stick. So not only have you potentially pissed off your opponents, you've also laid money on the table free for the taking, but only if block your assault first. Yeah, riichi is pretty mocking.

Declaring Riichi--timing is important
http://i56.tinypic.com/2eamf83.jpg
Declaring riichi is nice and angering and all, but for those tacticians that thrive on countering the offensive asshole of the neighborhood, it is important to know when they're mounting their offense. And since this is courteous japan, we go right out and give them a nice reminder. Riichi's final step is laying out you last unwanted tile sideways, indicating that you're in a state of riichi. This serves two purposes: 1. If you get it fast enough, you get to pour the pressure on. 2. After declaring riichi, you can't change your hand. You've declared that you're ready to make imaginary gusts of wind in anime style. Changing tiles in your hand might mean you're no longer ready. If someone has reached, the other players keep watch to make sure no blatant cheating is happening.

Declaring Riichi--why do it?
http://i53.tinypic.com/e8se90.jpg
So you've declared riichi, announcing to everyone that you wanna blow their heads off. You've also put money on the table. You can't change your position either. You're flaunting and taunting. You're just pissing everyone off. So why is this the namesake of the game, and why do it at all?
Remember those multipliers called yaku? Riichi is a yaku that offers you 1 fan point!

Declaring Riichi--didn't you say 5 multipliers/fan or more were where the real hands were?
http://i56.tinypic.com/erjuis.jpg
Yes. Yes I did. Basically, you want to collect as many fan points as possible, and riichi as a 1 fan yaku gives you +1. Try hard to get more.

Declaring Riichi--no seriously, why do it? 1 fan is nothing. And I know you're not allowed to stack riichi to give you +1 per deposit, unfortunately(?).
http://i56.tinypic.com/18krw8.jpg
Shut up, you fool! do you even know the meaning of a "multiplier"?! You need at least 1 fan if you want your hand to be valid! or do you want to say "I won! 0 ten!".
http://i56.tinypic.com/34y20za.jpg
Since you're an idiot who doesn't even know other yaku yet, riichi will let your trashy hand at least win. Maybe. If you get lucky enough, you might annoy your opponent to death.
http://i56.tinypic.com/op680w.jpg
Also, if you win while in riichi, you have a chance of gaining uradora!

Declaring Riichi--wat.
http://i55.tinypic.com/2nk4exh.jpg
no seriously, what? wtf is uradora? or dora for that matter?

http://i55.tinypic.com/29447px.jpg
=___=

http://i51.tinypic.com/jkwvi9.jpg
OBJECTION! You haven't explained shit about dora. is it a yaku?

http://i51.tinypic.com/izumb6.jpg
Huh, I'm impressed; you're not completely stoned 24/7. It isn't a true yaku, but if does increase your fan count if you get it. Let's talk about dora first, since uradora is an offshoot of it.

Dora--The mysterious power of luck.
http://i55.tinypic.com/143gyn7.jpg
Remember when I talked about Kan and the dead wall? In the dead wall, a single tile is exposed. This is the dora indicator. If you have the dora in your hand, your fan count goes up by the number of dora in your hand. (E.G. have a pon koutsu of dora, your hand's fan count is inflated by 3)

Dora indicator's method of indicating
http://i53.tinypic.com/14tn5gn.jpg
The indicator is extremely simple--the next tile in sequence is the dora. For example, the suuwan (manzu's 4) indicator here means the uuwan (manzu's 5) is the dora.

That's cool, but...
http://i55.tinypic.com/mx0enp.jpg
seriously. What does riichi and uradora have to do with it?

Dora is the power of luck!
http://i54.tinypic.com/le5ft.jpg
And winning with riichi means you get to flip the tile under the dora--the uradora--and it becomes a new, additional dora! since you can't see it while playing (assuming you're not cheating), getting uradora is lucky!

*Notice: The rest of the yaku will be listed in another post/section titled "List of Yaku and Ari-Ari/Nashi-Nashi differences", without the aid of Ayumu. She's too busy being hilarious to walk you through everything.*

(I005)
Winning


That's great! So this entire time, we're talking about winning. How's it done exactly? I'm pretty sure you can complete your hand by drawing, but shouldn't it also be possible to win off of opponent discards, similar to open calls?
http://i56.tinypic.com/amrtx.jpg
That's right. There are two methods of winning: Ron-wins and Tsumo-wins.
http://i55.tinypic.com/2yonz2d.jpg
You can declare Ron to win off of an opponent's discard.
http://i56.tinypic.com/ka2rgy.jpg
By process of elimination, you can declare Tsumo to when if you draw your winning tile yourself.
http://i56.tinypic.com/2b8dfp.jpg
Moreover, if your hand is in the state that allows for riichi to be declared, tsumo-winning means you've completed your hand by your own powers alone--this rewards you as another yaku--1 fan for complete concealed victory.

BTW, where you're sitting matters in how many points you get.
http://i55.tinypic.com/1zehac5.jpg
In mahjong, the East wind seat is dealer (oya).
http://i54.tinypic.com/t7fqqx.jpg
If you win while being dealer, you get to continue being dealer (with a 100 ten deposit that doesn't subtract from your score... more on this later).

btw, IT'S PUN TIME.
http://i53.tinypic.com/1zutg0.jpg
If one player is dealer (oya), the other players are the children. In the real world, parents give more money to their children, but in mahjong, it's reversed. Dealer gains more points if (s)he wins as dealer.
http://i51.tinypic.com/oj47ew.jpg
However, this power is a double-edged sword--if one of the children wins, the dealer pays double what the other children would have to pay.

(I006)
Oh yeah, Question.


Few Quick Questions that I couldn't ask when you were rambling, Ayumu.
What's the dora when the indicator is a 9?
http://i52.tinypic.com/qo6onc.jpg
As you recall, dora indicator means the next in sequence is the dora. However, 9 is the end of the sequence. When this happens, 1 becomes the dora. The suit remains unchanged, though. Just remember, even though the dora indicator line says after 9 is 1, it doesn't mean you can make a shuntsu with 9->1.

What about when the dora is a tsuuhai?
http://i55.tinypic.com/s480hs.jpg
This is very important. Since there are two types of tsuuhai, there are also two sequences. The top row shows the Wind sequence, ton->nan->xia->pei->ton. Just a reminder, even though the dora sequence exists, you can't make a shuntsu with winds.
http://i56.tinypic.com/2yyziwz.jpg
Likewise, the Dragon sequence, haku->hatsu->chun->haku is shown, and can't be used as shuntsu.

Remember back when you were showing me the shuuhai? What are those red 5 tiles?
http://i52.tinypic.com/6oighs.jpg
ah, those are special tiles. these are ari-ari only tiles, the red-dora tiles! regardless of the dora indicator, having a red 5 in your hand counts as a dora.
http://i51.tinypic.com/2ibf3ex.jpg
do note that it is only the red 5s that count as dora; the red chun of the three dragons is not a dora unless by dora indicator.

Anymore more tangents? No? Then I'll tell you about set up.

(I007)
Setting Up and Payment Types


The first thing to do when setting up is determining seat position.
http://i54.tinypic.com/1zv8y1g.jpg
Four tiles are placed face down, one per wind (ton, nan, xia, pei). These are shuffled as much as 4 tiles can be shuffled, and then players pick them randomly.
http://i55.tinypic.com/2w54jeq.jpg
After taking your seats in the proper positions, create the walls (sometimes called mountains) 17 tiles wide, 2 tiles deep, 1 wall per player. The current east is known as the Dealer of the Beginning.
http://i54.tinypic.com/15re5vb.jpg
The Dealer of the Beginning then rolls a pair of dice, and counters counterclockwise per player, starting on him/herself. The last counted player is now the True Dealer.
http://i56.tinypic.com/aonwpu.jpg
Now the True Dealer rolls the dice, and also counts counterclockwise starting on him/herself. Whoever's wall the final count lands on will have their wall as the starting point of the game. The place to start drawing from is determined by the already rolled dice. Counting that same number starting from the owner's right hand side towards the left, the final count is where the dead wall (7 sections deep) ends, and the starting hand draws begin. Tiles are drawn clockwise, while player turn is counterclockwise. Hands are built by each player drawing in rotation 4 tiles at a time--2 tiles wide, 2 tiles deep--for three rotations, then a single tile is drawn. The dealer then starts the game.

As stated before, Chii has a really inconvenient usage restriction.
http://i53.tinypic.com/rt0o6g.jpg
You can only call chii on the immediate discard of the player to your left. You cannot call chii on discards by the player across from you nor by the player to your right.
http://i52.tinypic.com/2rr28v7.jpg
Pon, and likewise kan, however, can be called on any player's discard.
In the case of one player calling chii on a tile, and another player calling pon/kan on the same tile, the pon/kan takes precedence. In the same vein, Ron has higher priority than any of the building calls.

Since we are reflecting on calls, let's reflect on winning.
http://i53.tinypic.com/dfkaib.jpg
In the case of tsumo-winning, all other players pay the winner by sharing the load of the hand. If a child wins by tsumo, then half of the payment is made by the dealer, while the other two children each pay a quarter of the total.
http://i51.tinypic.com/2ag7zpc.jpg
In the case of ron-winning, the player that discarded into the winning hand must pay the entire hand's value.

While it was implied earlier with "you get to keep being dealer if you win as dealer", if anyone who isn't dealer wins, dealer status is shifted one player counterclockwise. A whole game of riichi mahjong is played in a segment called a hanchan, which consists of two rounds of everyone being dealer once. That is to say, in a game of riichi mahjong, everyone gets to be dealer twice (assuming the game doesn't end prematurely).
A hanchan is half of a whole chan. Each "round" is represented by a wind. Since riichi mahjong is played by only half a chan, east round wind and south round wind are the only winds that get played. West wind round and North wind round are not usually played in riichi mahjong.

Any questions?
-Yeah, apparently I'm doing something wrong. I think I'm supposed to win, but someone tells me that my move is illegal. What's going on?

There are two possibilities I can think of off of the top of my head.
http://i56.tinypic.com/bi16w2.jpg
The first is that instead of proper yaku, you've only collected dora. While dora do inflate your han count, they don't count as the minimum 1 yaku necessary for a winning hand. Hording dora will boost your hand's value, but having only dora means you've got the air for a balloon, but no balloon to blow up.
http://i56.tinypic.com/ifd57c.jpg
The other thing I can think of is if you tried to declare ron while you've discarded a tile you could use now to complete your hand. Even if you couldn't use it at the time, this is a technical state called "furiten". You're in a tenpai state, but you've passed up one of your winning tiles. Even if your hand is in such a position that that tile wouldn't give you a necessary yaku, while the other wait will, your hand is still in furiten. Either be more careful, or change your wait! You could also hope for tsumo, but that's hardly an often winning strategy.

Disclaimer: all images copyright their respective owners (heavily Akabee Soft 2, the Zero image prior to editing by Capcom, etc.)

MZeroX
September 7th, 2011, 06:27 AM
List of Yaku, and Ari-Ari/Nashi-Nashi differences

List of Yaku


Type
Closed (fan awarded)
Open (fan awarded)
Yaku Name
Description


Winning
1
N/A
Menzenchin Tsumohou
Must be strongly closed--no calls (unless ankan); just say "tsumo"


Winning
1
N/A
Riichi
Must follow the specifications of riichi. See Above.


Winning
2
N/A
Double Riichi
Declaring Riichi on the first go-around; player ankan allowed in ari-ari


Winning
1
1
Chankan
Stealing a Kan--declaring ron on a pon-to-kan promotion


Winning
1
1
Rinshan Kaihou
Tsumo-win using the dead wall draw tile after a kan; often shortened to "rinshan" or "rinshan tsumo"


Winning
1
1
Haitei Raoyue
Tsumo-win using the final tile in the active walls; often shortened to "haitei" or haitei tsumo"


Winning
1
1
Houtei Raoyui
Ron-win using the final tile discarded; often shortened to "houtei" or "haitei ron"


Winning
Yakuman
N/A
Tenhou
Dealer's initial draw results in a winning hand; player's ankan not allowed


Winning
Yakuman
N/A
Chiihou
Non-dealer's initial draw results in a winning hand; player's ankan no allowed, no calls made by other players either


Shuntsu
1
N/A
Pinfu
All mentsu are sequences, atama must not be an active tsuupai (no dragons, no seat or round wind), wait must be ryanmen


Shuntsu
1
N/A
Iipeikou
Same-sequence twice; must be in the same suit and same number sequence. (EG: 112233 in souzu)


Shuntsu
1+1(iipeikou)+1(iipeikou)
N/A
Ryanpeikou
Two sets of Iipeikou; do not need to be the same sets. (EG: 223344 manzu, 556677souzu)


Shuntsu
2
1
Ikkitsuukan
Full set of a suit (123456789 in same suit); is often shortened to "itsuu"


Shuntsu
2
1
Sanshokudoujun
Same sequence in all three suits (234manzu, 234pinzu, 234souzu); often shortened to "sanshoku/sanshiki"


Koutsu
2
2
Toitoihou
all mentsu are koutsu; almost always shortened to "toi-toi"


Koutsu
2
2
Sanshokudoukou
same numbered koutsu in all three suits (666manzu, 666pinzu, 666souzu); not really shortened, but also "sanshokudoupon"


Koutsu
2
2
Sanankou
three strongly concealed koutsu; open hand is allowed for the remaining mentsu or tanki wait ron


Koutsu
2
2
Sankantsu
winning player has declared three kans with current hand; few ari-ari rules increase fan count to 3


Koutsu
Yakuman
Yakuman
Suuankou
four concealed koutsu; koutsu must be strongly concealed--ron-winning suuankou MUST be tanki wait only; some ari-ari variations make suuankou tanki a double yakuman


Koutsu
Yakuman
Yakuman
Suukantsu
winning hand is composed of 4 kans; nashi-nashi rules require win by rinshan kaihou due to 4-kans abortive washout. ari-ari rules make an exception to the 4-kans washout rule, if a single player has declared all four kans for the sake of suukantsu, with the abortive washout happening on a fifth kan.


Yaochuuhai
1
0
Tanyaochuu
hand consists purely of numbers 2-8, often shortened to "tanyao"; this hand consists of no "yaochuuhai" (1,9) or tsuuhai; almost all ari-ari rules and a few nashi-nashi rules allow tanyao to be open for 1 han


Yaochuuhai
2
1
Honchanta Yaochuu
each mentsu and the atama have at least one yaochuuhai(1,9) or tsuuhai. (E.G. 123manzu, 789pinzu, 111souzu, xia-xia-xia, haku-haku) often shortened to "chanta"


Yaochuuhai
1+2(chanta)
1+1(chanta)
Junchanta Yaochuu
each mentsu and atama is composed of at least one yaochuuhai (1,9). (E.G. 123 manzu, 111 manzu, 123pinzu, 11souzu, 999 souzu) often shortened to "junchan"


Yaochuuhai
2+1(chanta, no closed bonus)
2+1(chanta)
Honroutou
each mentsu is composed entirely of yaochuuhai(1,9) or tsuuhai; only happens in the cases of toitoi(+2 fan) or chiitoi(+2), giving a minimum of 5 fan when involved. (E.G. 111999manzu, 111pinzu, xia-xia-xia, ton-ton)


Yaochuuhai
Yakuman
Yakuman
Chinroutou
purely yaochuuhai (1,9). (E.G. 111999manzu, 111999pinzu, 99souzu)


Tsuuhai
1
1
Fanpai/Yakupai
koutsu of a dragon, seat wind, or round. can be stacked. (E.G. Dealer during east round get's 2 fan for a koutsu of ton)


Tsuuhai
Yakuman
Yakuman
Tsuuiisou
hand is composed entirely of tsuuhai.


Tsuuhai
2+1(fanpai)+1(fanpai)
2+1(fanpai)+1(fanpai)
Shousangen
two koutsu of the sangenpai and atama of the third.


Tsuuhai
Yakuman
Yakuman
Daisangen
koutsu of all three dragons.


Tsuuhai
Yakuman
Yakuman
Shousuushi
3 koutsu of winds, atama of the 4th.


Tsuuhai
Yakuman
Yakuman
Daisuushi
4 koutsu of the winds; ari-ari and some nashi-nashi regard this as a double yakuman


Shuuhai
3
2
Honiisou
hand is composed entirely of a single suit and/or tsuuhai. (E.G. 3 koutsu of souzu, hatsu fanpai, xia atama); often known as "honitsu" or "honichi"


Shuuhai
3+3(honitsu)
3+2(honitsu)
Chiniisou
hand is composed entirely of a single suit, no tsuuhai.


Structure
1
N/A
Pinfu
*see previous Pinfu entry under Shuntsu*


Structure
2
N/A
Chiitoitsu
exception of exceptions. hand is composed entirely of atama. that's 7 pairs. fu count is forced to 25. often abbreviated "chitoi"


Structure
2
2
Toitoihou
*see previous Toitoihou entry under Koutsu*


Special Case
Yakuman
Yakuman
Ryuuiisou
purely green tiles. that means souzu and hatsu. but not just souzu and hatsu. only the souzu that are entirely green. this limits the tiles to 2,3,4,6, and 8. This is almost specific to japanese sets.


Special Case
Yakuman
N/A or Yakuman
Chuurenpoutou
1112345678999+1-9, all in the pinzu. a few ari-ari styles allow this hand to be open


Special Case
Yakuman
N/A
Junsei Chuurenpoutou
in the case of chuurenpoutou tenpai being 1112345678999, there is a 9 sided wait. in most ari-ari styles, this is counted as a double yakuman.


Special Case
Yakuman
N/A
Kokushi Musou
1 of every yaochuuhai and tsuuhai, with a single one being a pair. 1-9(m)-1-9(p)-1-9(s)-T-N-X-P-Hk-Ht-C with any of these repeated once for atama.


Special Case
Yakuman
N/A
Kokushi Musou of 13 waits
In the case of Kokushi Musou tenpai being one of each thirteen yaochuuhai and tsuuhai, the wait has 13 possible winning tiles. in most ari-ari styles, this is counted as a double yakuman.







There are two types of ari-ari/nashi-nashi differences. The first type are local/house yaku, and the second are methodologies. First I'll list the Yaku. Note that some official yaku also have local renditions. These yaku will be relisted with their common house rules applied. Do note that really specialized house rules that aren't as common will be missed, just because I'm not omniscient. Anyways, onto debatable yaku.

Debatable Yaku


Type
Closed
Open
Yaku Name
Description


Winning
1
N/A
Ippatsu
winning within the first go-around after declaring riichi. this is voided if anyone makes any call, including ankan. a few very loose ari-ari sets allow the riichi declarer ippatsu if they declare ankan on their immediate tsumo post riichi, assuming they also get rinshan kaihou. in most cases, however, it is voided. note that declaration of riichi is not a "call" that disrupts the draw order, so it doesn't cause the ippatsu to be voided.


Winning
1+1
N/A
Open Riichi
In addition to calling riichi, some variants allow you to open either your waiting portion to be view by other players, or your entire hand. Upon winning after revealing your wait, an extra han is fixed onto the riichi, for a total of 2 fan. Basically you get more points for being an asshole.


Koutsu
2
2
Sanrenkou
Also called "Sanrenpon", it is 3 koutsu in shuntsu order. Some looser variants give this 3 han for strongly closed. (E.G. 444souzu 555souzu 666souzu; can be obtained open using pon/kan).


Koutsu
1
1
Sanshokushodoukou
Like how DaiSanGen has a weaker variant ShouSanGen, Sanshokudoukou can have a weaker variant. 2 koutsu and atama of the same number across the 3 suits.


Ryuukyoku
Mangan
N/A
Nagashi Mangan
If a player makes no calls and discards only yaochuuhai and tsuupai the entire hand such that the game goes to draw/wash out, that player is payed as if (s)he won a mangan limit hand by tsumo.


Winning
5/8/13
N/A
Renhou
If player starts in tenpai and another player discards that winning tile before the tenpai player's turn, Renhou can be declared. Different rules mark that victory as a Mangan, Baiman, or Yakuman.


Winning
Yakuman
N/A
Shiisanbudou
12 disordered tiles such that no mentsu can be properly made and a pair. In the same vein as Tenhou, Chiihou, and Renhou, Shiisanbudou can only be called during the first go-around, and no other calls may have been made.


Yaochuuhai
Yakuman
N/A
Daisharin
22334455667788 in pinzu. simultaneous chiitoi and ryanpeikou; excludes all yaochuuhai. some looser variations allow this yakuman in other suits. for a fabulous example, see Koizumi's use of Daichikurin (daisharin in souzu) in Mudazumo Naki Kaikaku ~the Legend of Koizumi~


Shuntsu
Yakuman
Yakuman
Suurenjun
same sequence in the same suit 4 times. (4 identical shuntsu, using all 4 of each of the 3 tile types; E.G. 345,345,345,345 pinzu)


Winning
5/8/13
5/8/13
Paarenchan
continuing being dealer for 8 consecutive hands, any victory is treated as a limit hand. Some variants fix the limit hand to mangan, baiman, or yakuman.


Yaochuuhai
1
1
Tanyaochuu
officially, this yaku is only usable when strongly concealed. looser variants allow this yaku even with open calls.





Debatable Methods and Rules
Red 5 doras: see tutorial entry

Double Ron: Two players declaring ron on the same discarded tile. Officially, the first one in the seat sequence East->South->West->North has priority, but this rule forces the player to pay both hands.

South failed preparations: If the game goes to ryuukyoku and the dealer is not in tenpai, the dealership status usually gets shifted to the current south seat. Under this rule, dealer gets to continue being dealer if South seat isn't in tenpai either.

Tenpai Renchan: allows dealer to continue dealing without winning, as long as the dealer is in tenpai by the time the game washes out to a draw.

Ryanhanshibari: If a dealer continues to rack up renchan, then once the 5th or 7th renchan is reached, the dealer must have a minimum 2 fan hand in order to declare a winning hand.

Play Continuing: If no players have reached or exceeded the 30,000 point mark by the end of the South round, the hanchan is extended into the chan rounds until someone exceeds that limit (sudden death). Continues first into West round, then into North round if necessary. If for some magical reason no conclusion is reached by the end of North round, it loops back the East.

Yakitori: players have a bird marker that they flip over once they win any hand. If the game's conclusion is reached and a player hasn't flipped this marker over, they pay a chombo to those who have won.

Yakibuta: a player flips their bird marker on the final round, escaping yakitori penalty. The other players pay a chombo.

Uma: traditionally, winner takes all. final score calculation is traditionally winner +9, losers -3. In Uma proportionality bonus, final score calculation is 1st: +10, 2nd: +5, 3rd: -5, 4th: -10. See Variation of Starting Scores and Victory Pot Breaking for an example of this rule in effect.

Stagnant Riichi: even if declaring ankan after riichi does NOT change the wait, players are still forbidden to do so as it changes the hand's fu value.

Natural Wins Only: There are four situation yaku which ignore hand composition: Rinshan Kaihou, Kanchan, Haitei Raoyue, and Houtei Raoyui. Natural wins only rule treats these yaku like dora han, meaning they can't be the only yaku in the hand in order to declare a win.

Atozuke: allows a yaku-less hand to declare ron if the winning tile creates the yaku.

Double Yakuman: special case yakuman hands can have twice the value they normally have if conditions are met. Yakuman may also be "stacked" in certain rule sets, like tsuuiisou+daisangen. Some cases my exceed mere "double" yakuman, but since you probably cheated to get there, you're gonna get beaten, physically. If you didn't, you'll still probably get beaten, since it's too unbelievable.

Kandora: declaration of a kan allows another dora indicator to be revealed. some variants allow the flip before a player discards in the case that rinshan kaihou does not happen, while others only flip the tile after the player has finished his/her move.

Kanuradora: same concept as uradora but applied to kan dora. win with riichi after someone has declared a kan or three, and you get more shots are dora. let's say the other three players have declared one kan a piece. that's 4 doras revealed. now let's say you declare riichi, after which you draw a 4th tile to complete an ankan. so you do, and get rinshan kaihou before the game aborts due to 4 kan. 5 dora indicators, 5 uradora indicators. yeah, shit's getting dumb.

Kuikae: in most cases, you aren't allowed to declare chii, steal a certain tile, then discard the same tile (holding 345, someone discards 5, you declare chii for 345, and discard the 5 you already held--this is usually illegal, but is allowed under this rule). The same applies for shifting a chii (holding 456, someone discards 7, you chii for 567, then discard 4. Usually illegal, allowed under this rule).

No Limit Hands: some bizarre people don't like the ease of the limit hands, so play without limits. Big hands also have stupidly HUGE point counts, so starting scores need to be adjusted to take the hit too. And I guess that means starting scores variations should be listed here.

Variation of Starting Scores and Victory Pot Breaking: Ignoring the ridiculous amount of point sticks you'd need for No Limit style of play, normal play also has a few point variations, though they all center around the same idea. Winner's "score" is calculated by adding up how far off the losers' score is from 30,000, then divide by 1,000. Most places you'll find online start at 25,000, while 26k, 27k, and 30k also happen frequently enough irl. Anyways, let's show an example of a 25k starting 30k pay out system with Uma distribution in play (very common). Say the top scorer has 49,800 ten, second has 22,300, third has 17,900, and last has 10,000. The differences from 30k for the losers are (30,000-22,300)+(30,000-17,900)+(30,000-10,000). These would be 7,700; 12,100; and 20,000. dividing by 1000 per and truncating decimals, second place's base score is -7, third's is -12, and fourth's is -20. Adding these together to get -39, you flip the sign, and give the top ranker a base score of +39. The normal distribution give victory bonus/penalties as (top +9, losers -3). This means the final score in a normal distribution is top: +48, 2nd: -10, 3rd: -15, and 4th: -23. In the Uma proportionality bonus distribution, (top +10, 2nd +5, 3rd -5, 4th -10). This means that with the final score distribution is Top: +49, 2nd: -2, 3rd: -17, 4th: -30.


Base Score (Fu):
Any completed hand starts with a base score count of 20 fu. All following formations are added onto fu count, and then forcefully rounded up to the nearest 10s digit. For example, a 22 fu hand is considered a 30 fu hand. Chiitoitsu ALWAYS has a fu count of 25. It is the only hand with a fu count not a multiple of ten.



Open
Fully Concealed
Exceptions


Honors Pair
0
2
Chiitoitsu's fu is fixed


3 of a kind: 2-8
2
4



3 of a kind: 1,9, honors
4
8



4 of a kind: 2-8
8
16



4 of a kind: 1,9, honors
16
32



single wait
2
2
kanchan, penchan, tanki only; ryanmen with an exhausted end does not count


tsumo-winning
0
2
pinfu and rinshan kaihou earn 0 fu even if strongly concealed


ron-winning
0
10
not an exception but remember! must be weakly concealed







kanchan wait is waiting on a middle of a shuntsu--if you're waiting on a 6 to turn 57 into 567, it's a kanchan.
penchan wait is waiting on an edge tile; only happens for 123 or 789--waiting on the 3 or 7 in these cases is an edge wait.
tanki wait is waiting on a single tile to complete the atama-- 123555888999<xia>, waiting on a single <xia> is a tanki wait.

strongly concealed is a winning hand with no calls (unless ankan) and won by tsumo.
weakly concealed is a winning hand with no calls (unless ankan) and won by ron.


Table of Scores (shamelessly ripped from Akagi OST):
format:
fu count-> (row)
han count: V (column)
http://i53.tinypic.com/zn6kv4.jpg
Child scores on the top, Dealer scores on the bottom. (2x/x) scores in the child sections are tsumo-wins payment (dealer/other children)

also, training links:
To learn how to figure out what yaku are in a hand to avoid being cheated/actually make scoring plans. (http://arcturus.su/tenhou/scorequiz/yaku.html)
To grind your base score (fu) and yaku (han) calculations. (http://arcturus.su/tenhou/scorequiz/)
These are highly recommended for learning the yaku and calculating score.
It's alright to start with a cheat sheet and work your way off of it. I personally think it's optimal to have a cheat sheet before you really know any yaku and play the yaku quiz. The fact that you're doing something other than reading helps you establish it into memory faster.


Also, I'm absolutely certain I've left out things, but it's 5 am and i've yet to sleep. i'll add more later, or if you know how to play and feel like adding stuff, go for it.

GlanGR
September 7th, 2011, 08:11 PM
Thank you so much for this. Now when those people from the mahjong club at school want me to play with them, I can do things other than just call Riichi or pray for a wind or honor Pon.

MZeroX
September 7th, 2011, 11:10 PM
No problem. Still have a ways to go before the lists and rules are all here, but I do hope that the basics of playing are easy enough to grasp now, at least to get a general idea of how to play. In fact, since I've mentioned chombo and ryuukyoku but haven't explained them, I should probably get to those. As well as point distribution. And making a more readable version of the scoring chart. Maybe include the calculation algorithym for those insane -no limit- rules. Oh shit, I forgot to put -no limit hands- variation in my list of house rules.

EDIT: no limit hands variation added, a small bit added in rules. Have other stuff to do, so can't finish it right now, again. ;_;

Marth
September 7th, 2011, 11:16 PM
Holy fuuuuuck, long posts full of images are loooong. 0___o

Gonna take me awhile to read all this. May as well start now.

MZeroX
September 7th, 2011, 11:38 PM
hey now, at least you get visual aids and bad fake dialogue. When I learned how to play (self-taught), I didn't have real visual aids or badly comical speech to give my brain a rest. I just read and grinded cpu mahjong on gamedesign and various eroge that i couldn't read. i think this will actually make learning a bit easier, or at least easier than the way i learned.

Marth
September 8th, 2011, 12:12 AM
hey now, at least you get visual aids and bad fake dialogue. When I learned how to play (self-taught), I didn't have real visual aids or badly comical speech to give my brain a rest. I just read and grinded cpu mahjong on gamedesign and various eroge that i couldn't read. i think this will actually make learning a bit easier, or at least easier than the way i learned.

I wasn't complaining. Just so much to go through at once, it will take me awhile, is all.

Saradin
September 8th, 2011, 01:11 AM
How do they calculate the score in that table? The way I learned to score, I'm getting waaay less points than what it shows. Though, I'm pretty sure that my style of scoring is pretty different, since I also assign different han values for some of the yaku. (And some of the rules are different, though that may just be house rules. I don't really know.)

MZeroX
September 8th, 2011, 02:36 AM
yeah, there's tons of different scoring methods because of different styles of play. Is the way you learned to score something along the lines of


dealer seat
3 han
4 han
5 han
6 han
7 han
8 han


20
N/A
2000 (700)
3900 (1300)
7700 (2600)
12000 (4000)
18000 (6000)


22-30
1500 (500)
2900 (1000)
5800 (2000)
11600 (3900)
12000 (4000)
18000 (6000)


32-40
2000 (700)
3900 (1300)
7700 (2600)
12000 (4000)
12000 (4000)
18000 (6000)


42-50
2400 (800)
4800 (1600)
9600 (3200)
12000 (4000)
12000 (4000)
18000 (6000)


52-60
2900 (1000)
5800 (2000)
11600 (3900)
12000 (4000)
12000 (4000)
18000 (6000)


62-70
3400 (1200)
6800 (2300)
12000 (4000)
12000 (4000)
12000 (4000)
18000 (6000)


72-80
3900 (1300)
7700 (2600)
12000 (4000)
12000 (4000)
12000 (4000)
18000 (6000)









child seats
3han
4han
5han
6han
7han
8han


20
N/A
1300 (700-400)
2600 (1300-700)
5200 (2600-1300)
8000 (4000-2000)
12000 (6000-3000)


22-30
1000 (500-300)
2000 (1000-500)
3900 (2000-1000)
7700(3900-2000)
8000 (4000-2000)
12000 (6000-3000)


32-40
1300 (700-400)
2600 (1300-700)
5200 (2600-1300)
8000 (4000-2000)
8000 (4000-2000)
12000 (6000-3000)


42-50
1600 (800-400)
3200 (1600-800)
6400 (3200-1600
8000 (4000-2000)
8000 (4000-2000)
12000 (6000-3000)


52-60
2000 (1000-500)
3900 (2000-1000)
7700(3900-2000)
8000 (4000-2000)
8000 (4000-2000)
12000 (6000-3000)


62-70
2300 (1200-600)
4500 (2300-1200)
8000 (4000-2000)
8000 (4000-2000)
8000 (4000-2000)
12000 (6000-3000)


72-80
2600 (1300-700)
5200 (2600-1300)
8000 (4000-2000)
8000 (4000-2000)
8000 (4000-2000)
12000 (6000-3000)






??? if so, it's an older style of japanese riichi mahjong that is still often played, though the newer scoring system seems to be gaining more popularity (at least to my knowledge, which may be lacking).

As for the way that i'm used to calculating, the Base Score (Fu) table in my second post is used, along with counting the han using the values in the yaku tables. Then I just look at the scoring chart from the Akagi OST if is lower than a 5 han mangan, since i haven't played irl in a long time, so have lost my recall on the exponential hands.

With limit hands being:
5 han: mangan <12000 dealer, 8000 child>
6-7 han: haneman <18000 dealer, 12000 child>
8-10 han: baiman <24000 dealer, 18000 child>
11-12 han: sanbaiman <36000 dealer, 24000 child>
13+ han: yakuman <48000 dealer, 32000 child>


Eh, if i'm posting that scoring diagram, might as well break it down too. let's see if i can decipher the moon runes on the pink slip in my set case.
1 han yaku
pinfu
tanyao
riichi
menzen tsumo
iipeikou

2 han yaku
toitoi
sanshokudoujun
sanshokudoukou
ikkitsuukan
chanta
sanankou
sankantsu
honroutou
chitoitsu

3han yaku
honitsu
ryanpeikou
junchan

4 han yaku
shousangen

6 han yaku
chinitsu

yakuman
suuankou
suuankou tanki
suushiihou
chinroutou
kokushi musou
kokushi musou 13 sided wait
suukantsu
daisangen
tsuuiisou
ryuuiisou
chuurenpoutou
junsei chuurenpoutou
tenhou
chiihou

is this the set you play with, saradin? if i look harder i might be able to find another japanese riichi variant, but i chose the thread's specific one because this is BL. That style appears the most in random eroge, as well as is one of the more popular versions played on the tenhou servers. It just seems like it had a wider audience potential.

and i reinforce that i can't read moonrunes. i'm just assigning sounds to shapes that i've look at for a while, so when it comes the actual rules written i can't decipher shit. ;_;

Saradin
September 8th, 2011, 03:48 AM
The way I learned is simple: (fu) x (2^han). So if you have, say 32 fu and 2 han, your score is 128. It's something simple that you can do in your head without having to memorize tables.

In terms of the yaku, it's basically the easy ones are worth 1 han, and the hard ones are worth 2 han. The cutoff point between easy and hard is generally around the "all the same suit/honors" condition. And of course, there's yakuman, but no one ever gets those so...

I do have a book of rules that came with the set, but I've never really read it. Well, I looked through it once, but it's hard to understand, because I don't know a lot of the terminology. (On a side note, the book is so old that it uses outdated kana.)

MZeroX
September 8th, 2011, 04:01 AM
are the point sticks different, then? or do they just have different values? or do you use coins instead of sticks?

i haven't upped everything yet, but points in this style are distro'd
1 -- 10,000 ten sticks
2 -- 5,000 ten sticks
9 -- 1,000 ten sticks
5-10 -- 100 ten sticks

With a score of 128, you'd be wholly unable to divide the sticks properly, unless you multipled your score calculation by 100. But then, that's a hefty portion of your overall score for a meager 2 han hand, so i'm confused about the point parsing.

But yeah, just goes to show that there are many variations on how to play. Feel free to post about it, as I'm completely fine with derailing this topic into a general mahjong discussion.

Saradin
September 8th, 2011, 04:29 AM
Generally we don't play with the sticks. We just write the points down on a pad of paper. Or you can play 1 point = 1 cent and do some cheap gambling like that. Though I don't gamble, but I'm told that's what my grandparents/parents used to play for.

If we used the sticks, we would probably do in some multiple of 4, since that's generally how we count scoring. Maybe increments of 4, 20, 80 and 400 or something.

MZeroX
September 8th, 2011, 04:52 AM
it's been really grating on me, since the method you mentioned for calculating seemed really familiar... so i looked it up and found what seemed similar.

the calculation method used in the riichi mahjong that's introduced in this thread is

total point count = fu x 2^(2+han count)
so with your 32 fu, 2 han hand we get

32 x 2^(2+2)= 512, rounded to 500

this is the base score.

on child tsumo, other children pay 500, dealer pays 1000.
on dealer tsumo, children pay 2 times base score, 1000 each.

checking the charts that you don't want to memorize, that's the a 30 fu - 2 han hand.
i think your scoring is either a house rule on scoring, or a portion of the calculation got lost along the way. this is just postulation, though. this simpler form might just be the calculations of a style i'm not familiar with.

Saradin
September 8th, 2011, 06:13 PM
Well, it's nice to know I'm just off by a factor of 4. Minus the adjusted han values of various yaku.

Now that I think about it, it's highly likely that different scoring systems were all mixed together to create the one I know. How very American.

MZeroX
September 9th, 2011, 06:46 PM
The Set Up

Since I assumed that the majority of people reading were gonna use the internet in all of its glory to play, I left this until later, since the programmers would do all of the set up work. This is for those who want to play IRL but either rely on others to set up, or just don't play because they don't know how to participate. I also think it's necessary to make an official post about the points.


Distributing the points (ten) sticks
First, it is necessary to know which sticks are worth what, and what they look like.
http://i52.tinypic.com/2aos40.jpg<- this is the 10,000 ten stick. It's backbone of your starting score, so if you have to dish it out early, you're in trouble.
http://i54.tinypic.com/70an7n.jpg<- this is the 5,000 ten stick. These are also a good chunk of your starting score.
http://i52.tinypic.com/11vmbo9.jpg<- this is the 1,000 ten stick. If you've seen any mahjong anime or read any manga, it's the iconic riichi stick.
http://i56.tinypic.com/2i2bo04.jpg<- this is the 100 ten stick. You'll be handling these quite a bit, since hands perfectly dividable by 1000 are rarities. Even limit hands become prone to score adjustment due to renchan.

Different sets have different amounts of sticks, but the suggested distribution of those sticks per player is
1 - http://i52.tinypic.com/2aos40.jpg
2 - http://i54.tinypic.com/70an7n.jpg
9 - http://i52.tinypic.com/11vmbo9.jpg
10 - http://i56.tinypic.com/2i2bo04.jpg

I've seen a few sets that have, what i assume to be, a strange "stick printing error". Rather than 36 http://i52.tinypic.com/11vmbo9.jpg (nine 1000 ten sticks per player), they only have 32 (eight 1000 ten sticks per player); and instead of 40 http://i56.tinypic.com/2i2bo04.jpg (10 per player), they have 44(11 per player). This could also be a way to keep people from starting at 30,000 ten per game, if that style of play isn't preferred, but that's strange imo.




In-Game Deposits, Penalties, and Bonuses
Riichi Deposit: You all remember the riichi deposit, right? You throw down a riichi-bou when declaring riichi to piss people off follow the declaration rules. The riichi deposit is now free game on the table. If the game goes to a draw, the stick stays on the table. This doesn't mean that when you start the next hand, your in a state of riichi--that just means you left the points on the table. If you want to declare riichi again, you have to make another deposit. If your deposit points are on the table, but someone else wins, in addition to their winning payment, they also get to take all riichi deposits on the table.

Renchan Deposits: Remember when Ayumu said that you get to keep being dealer when you win as one? That's only if you decide to make a 100 ten deposit, for each victory. This means that if you have been dealer 5 times in a row, there should be four 100 tenbou on the table (first round as dealer requires no deposit, 4 bonus rounds require one 100 tenbou per round). Unlike riichi deposits, these stay on the table in the case of a victory. In the case of renchan combos ending, your sticks are returned to you. If you have renchan sticks on the table but the game washes out and you are not in tenpai, these sticks remain on the table and are passed to the next dealer. The previously stated rule still applies, however, and your sticks are returned to you once the renchan combo ends.

Renchan Bonus: For every renchan deposit on the table, hand values are increased by 300 ten. This means that in the case of a child haneman ron with 2 renchan in effect, the payout is 12600, instead of 12000. In the case of a tsumo, each player (regardless of child or dealer) pays an additional 100 per renchan.

Ending/Proportionality Bonus: You'll often see players starting with 25,000 ten each, so what's the extra 5000 for? Those are for proportionality bonus at the end. To simplify score calculations, as shown in the Debatable Yaku/Rules section, those extra 5000 are thrown around for the proportionality bonus, in order to avoid too much outside math. In a normal Top rank wins only, 3000 of the 5000 is given to the winner from each player. With the Uma proportionality bonus, 3rd gives the 5000 to 2nd, and 4th gives the 5000+an additional 5000 from his/her score to the Top. (In the case of the 4th player going negative, the numbers have to be calculated by hand if you care to keep records.) This simplifies calculations, since now, each loser only needs to find the difference between their current point holdings and 30,000, and those are their point rankings. Flip the sign and add them up, that's the top's score ranking.

Chombo penalties: Break any of the rules in effect (and get caught), pay a mangan payment. Some rule sets make this dependent on seat, making cheating as dealer more painful. Examples of chombo payments would be declaring riichi while in noten (not in tenpai), the game goes to wash out and your hand is revealed to be in pieces; getting caught switching tiles (this is a nice penalty, some people would kick you out of a parlor or tourney if you were caught).

Ryuukyoku penalties: In the case of the game washing out, those in tenpai receive a small payment from those not in tenpai. Of course, if everyone is in tenpai or everyone is noten, then no points are transferred. Renchan does NOT apply to ryuukyoku penalties.
For 3 tenpai - 1 noten: 1000 to each tenpai, 3000 from noten
For 2 tenpai - 2 noten: 1500 to each tenpai, 1500 from each noten
For 1 tenpai - 3 noten: 3000 to tenpai, 1000 from each noten

Tangerang
September 9th, 2011, 09:00 PM
We should set up some time to play mahjong

MZeroX
September 9th, 2011, 09:23 PM
i agree. preferably within the next few weeks, as i believe this upcoming quarter in school is gonna be HELL. 12 more days until sad life.

Saradin
September 11th, 2011, 01:37 AM
Ok, I fished out my set and the book of rules that came with it, and after painstakingly trying to read it, it said the scoring was how I said. The sticks were worth 10, 100 and 500 (there's only 3 types). There's also a piece of paper with a scoring chart, and none of the amounts are rounded. But seeing as how it looks like my grandfather's handwriting, I'm not exactly sure I can call that official.

There's another piece of paper that has a bunch of yaku on it, and there's only 17 non-yakuman, each worth 1 han, and then 10 yakuman. And there's 2 others listed, the 7 pairs, and the all one suit with no winds/dragons. The 7 pairs says it's worth 100 points, and the other one is 4 han. This one looks like a photocopy from a book, so it's probably legit. (If you're interested what the 17 normal yakus are, I can try reading them, but it's a pain since I don't know any terminology.)

MZeroX
September 11th, 2011, 01:41 AM
hmmm, that's a style i've not encountered yet. sounds interesting. if it is too much of a hassle to read them, you can always just photocopy the photocopy and upload it. either way, you've got my attention.

Saradin
September 11th, 2011, 02:38 AM
The page is kind of faded, sadly. Plus I don't have a scanner. So I'm giving it my best shot. And I don't know the names, and I'm not going to try to guess them, so you'll get my bad translation of them/description. (There were a ton of kanji that looked like they're outdated, so I just kinda, matched them as best as I could with a list of yaku.)

1) Tsumo
2) No-point hand
3) No terminal/wind/dragon
4) All the same suit + wind/dragons
5) All koutsu
6) All koutsu and all terminal/winds/dragons
7) 3 hidden koutsu
8) 2 koutsu of dragons, the pair is dragon
9) Everything has a terminal/wind/dragon in it
10) 3 kan
11) 123456789 of one suit
12) Victory from the tile drawn when you declare a kan.
13) When someone places a tile down from a previously declared pon to form a kan, and you instead take that tile to win.
14) Victory from the last tile drawn from the wall before a stalemate
15) Victory from the last tile discarded before a stalemate
16) Riichi
17) "Other" (1-17 are all labeled as 1 han)

18) 7 pairs (Worth 100 points)
19) All same suit, no dragons/winds (Worth 4 han)

Yakuman:
1) Dealer starts with winning hand
2) Other players wins with first draw
3) Koutsu of all 3 dragons
4) Koutsu of all 4 winds
5) All koutsu, all terminals (including pair)
6) All wind/dragon
7) 4 concealed koutsu
8) One of every terminal/dragon/wind, and the last one matches any of the others.
9) 1112345678999 + any other tile of that suit, all the same suit
10) "Other"

MZeroX
September 11th, 2011, 02:56 AM
oooh, thanks for the attempt. once/if you get all of them up, i'm gonna try to play this way for a little bit and see if it sits well with me~

MZeroX
September 11th, 2011, 03:17 AM
So... I'm gonna go ahead and equate these yaku to names that i recognize.

The page is kind of faded, sadly. Plus I don't have a scanner. So I'm giving it my best shot. And I don't know the names, and I'm not going to try to guess them, so you'll get my bad translation of them/description. (There were a ton of kanji that looked like they're outdated, so I just kinda, matched them as best as I could with a list of yaku.)

1) Tsumo->tsumo
2) No-point hand->probably pinfu or chicken hand. i've seen pinfu labeled as "no other yaku", but i've also seen chicken hand given points, even if its formation is a mess
3) No terminal/wind/dragon->tanyao
4) All the same suit + wind/dragons->honitsu
5) All koutsu->toitoi
6) All koutsu and all terminal/winds/dragons->honroutou
7) 3 hidden koutsu->sanankou
8) 2 koutsu of dragons, the pair is dragon->shousangen
9) Everything has a terminal/wind/dragon in it->chanta
10) 3 kan->lol yeah, sankantsu
11) 123456789 of one suit->itsuu
12) Victory from the tile drawn when you declare a kan.->rinshan
13) When someone places a tile down from a previously declared pon to form a kan, and you instead take that tile to win.->chankan
14) Victory from the last tile drawn from the wall before a stalemate->haitei
15) Victory from the last tile discarded before a stalemate->houtei
16) Riichi->riichi
17) "Other" (1-17 are all labeled as 1 han)->huh?

18) 7 pairs (Worth 100 points)->yay chitoitsu! always the exception.
19) All same suit, no dragons/winds (Worth 4 han)->chinitsu

Yakuman:
1) Dealer starts with winning hand->tenhou
2) Other players wins with first draw->chiihou
3) Koutsu of all 3 dragons->daisangen
4) Koutsu of all 4 winds->suushihou
5) All koutsu, all terminals (including pair)->chinroutou
6) All wind/dragon->tsuuiisou
7) 4 concealed koutsu->suuankou
8) One of every terminal/dragon/wind, and the last one matches any of the others.->kokushi musou
9) 1112345678999 + any other tile of that suit, all the same suit->chuurenpoutou
10) "Other"->huh?
hmmm, this leaves out most of the shuntsu yaku of the style i play. and since everything is 1 yaku, there aren't any han penalties for going open. that makes the game much more call oriented, with riichi being very rare. seems like less suspicions and mind games and more head butting action. higher pace seems natural too. seems like it'll be fun, but with less of an emphasis on keeping your hand closed, so you're less likely to over think and tire out from playing only a few hands. seems great for a little spin. thanks~

Tangerang
September 15th, 2011, 03:00 AM
Somebody remind me, how many han does it take to get a counted yakuman?

MZeroX
September 15th, 2011, 03:20 AM
13 han


5: mangan
6-7: haneman
8-10: baiman
11-12: sanbaiman
13+: yakuman

you can get mangan limit at 3 and 4 han too, but only if your fu count is high enough to compensate; 70+ fu 3 han= mangan, 40+ fu 4 han=mangan.

MZeroX
September 18th, 2011, 09:53 PM
And... I just realized that I forgot one of the most common and important parts of the game--how it ends.

There are 2 outcomes to any hand: someone wins, or the game washes out in a draw.

Heavily implied in the previous posts, is someone winning. This means someone completes their hand, and points are awarded. Nice and peachy, this one.

Mentioned in passing but never given a real explanation is a drawn game. So here we go...

Ryuukyoku
Running out of tiles: Of all of the 136 tiles, 52 are used for making players' hands, and the dead-wall is 14 tiles in total. That means the tiles available to draw during the game number 70. This number does not change. When 70 tiles are drawn and no one has legally declared victory, the game goes to draw. Depending on rules and hand states (tenpai/noten), dealership may or may not change, points may or may not be passed around, and honba count may increase (renchan stick thrown down to continue dealer status). Declaring kan, which allows a draw from the dead wall, does not change the 70 drawn tiles either. If a tile is drawn due to kan declaration, the last tile on the active wall is shifted to the dead wall. This also means that you aren't able to declare kan on the haitei tile. I should probably put a good chunk of this into the kan explanation as well, but that'll happen later.

Kyuushukyuhai: if your hand has 9 or more different terminals and honors, and you have no more than 2 meldable sets (making a chi or pon will give you a set), you can force the game to an abortive draw, tiles rewashed, and seat changed (depending on the rules). Note that this is only applicable DURING the FIRST go-around (no calls made), and can only be called after your first draw, but before a discard. The 9th terminal/honor is allowed to come from the first drawn tile. May not apply in some rules.

Suufontsu: if all players discard the same wind tile during the first turn (no calls made), the hand is treated as a draw with everyone in noten. May not apply in some rules.

Suukansanra: if 4 kans are declared, the game is a draw. The yakuman, suukantsu, is thus impossible if more than one player has declared kan. The game is not declared a draw until a tile has been discarded after the 4th kan, making suukantsu possible only on the rinshan.

Yoninriichi: simply, if all four players have declared riichi, the match is stupid sudden death with no semblance of the desired metagame--so the hand is aborted.

Triple Ron: even simpler, if three players declare ron on the same tile, the game is aborted. may not apply in some rules.

Tangerang
September 18th, 2011, 10:07 PM
Huh, haven't heard of the triple ron rule before. Is that apply for Tenhou?

MZeroX
September 18th, 2011, 10:14 PM
dunno, haven't seen it happen on tenhou to confirm. i should probably add that that rule also is dependent on accepted/denied rules.

RadiantBeam
December 15th, 2011, 11:59 AM
I admit I've never actually played this game, though the rules look interesting. Is it difficult to learn?

KENTA
December 15th, 2011, 12:04 PM
Not terribly hard, just takes some getting used to.

MZeroX
December 15th, 2011, 12:44 PM
it's basically rummy/poker, but with tiles instead of cards.

RadiantBeam
December 15th, 2011, 01:23 PM
Huh. Have to admit I've never played poker before.

KENTA
December 15th, 2011, 01:40 PM
That may actually make things easier. You won't be as inclined to make assumptions.

MZeroX
December 15th, 2011, 01:54 PM
Yeah, the general idea of hand formation is related to concepts that poker and rummy both use, but the scoring system is different. I just like saying it's similar to poker or rummy because they're both relatively easy conceptually, and all of the difficulties arise from player-borne metagame. Mahjong is the same thing. It's just a matter of learning the basic ideas of hand formation, then what formations lead to wins. Everything after that is player-player interaction, and metagame variations depending on rules for very obscure happenstance (which can mostly be ignored, since they rarely happen).

GlanGR
December 15th, 2011, 06:18 PM
Back when my parents tried to convince me to play Chinese mahjong with them, they would compare it with those two games, which confused me to no end since I had never played either of them.

Now that I play Riichi mahjong a bit more, I'm still confused to no end, but at least I have a general idea of what gets you more points.

Marth
January 29th, 2012, 08:52 AM
*slams through the topic door*

Jesus FUCK, I understand now.

It's like wearing a literal mask of mahjong stupidity all my life, then taking it off and seeing how simple it all was.

Only took me two weeks and endless grinding. XD

Also...

*casts Revive on the topic*

KENTA
January 29th, 2012, 08:57 AM
*brofist* Once you get it Mahjong's pretty fun. It just takes a little time for everything to fall into place.

Marth
January 29th, 2012, 08:58 AM
I still don't much understand the scoring. So many goddamn numbers. Makes my head hurt. ;__;

*brofist returned*

MZeroX
January 29th, 2012, 09:23 AM
YES, MORE CONVERTS. ZERO IS PLEASED.

but yeah, the scoring. it's pretty dumb, that's why i made separate posts for the scoring from the instruction post.

MZeroX
February 13th, 2012, 01:48 AM
After some discussion and some interest enough for new players, this thread being sticky'd in order to help set up online matches seems like a good idea. It's easier to see when people are available if the thread doesn't keep getting thrown into the far recesses of the wash.

And hopefully, this will also spark some interest in the even newer members who have never seen this thread before.

KENTA
February 13th, 2012, 01:59 AM
Holy shit, Zero with the sticky? Well done sir.

MZeroX
February 13th, 2012, 02:00 AM
So yeah, wanna get a match date set up? Tuesday or Thursday would be best for me. Finer time adjustments can be made as more people respond.

EDIT: guess I should include that unless otherwise specified by the players, we should pick a tenhou non-zero lobby so we can match each other. /7776 seem good for everyone in general?

link for lobby:
http://tenhou.net/0/?L7776

ItsaRandomUsername
February 13th, 2012, 02:05 AM
Oh cool, this thread's been stickied.

KENTA
February 13th, 2012, 02:15 AM
Tuesday should be good for me.

mewarmo990
February 13th, 2012, 02:18 AM
Zero, you are a pretty cool guy.

Marth
February 13th, 2012, 02:51 AM
As I've said before, any day is fine for me. Just, uh, make sure someone reminds me or something, or else I may well forget. ^_^'

MZeroX
February 13th, 2012, 02:52 AM
so we have enough for a 3 player game, though a 4 player game would be preferred. want to start getting hours worked out, or should we wait for last minute?

Marth
February 13th, 2012, 02:56 AM
May be best to just plan for a 3-player match, then add in another if need be later on. Not like it ruins the plans if someone does join at the last minute.

MZeroX
February 13th, 2012, 02:57 AM
then timezone confirmations, and then we'll work from there. i'm GMT -8.

Marth
February 13th, 2012, 03:08 AM
*forgets what Maine is*

I wanna say GMT -5, but it's been years since I've even looked at a timezone map. Pretty sure it is, though. -_-

MZeroX
February 13th, 2012, 03:17 AM
protip: bottom of the BL page, if time on site is relatively sync'd to the actual time. timezone is displayed.

Marth
February 13th, 2012, 03:20 AM
...huh.

Never bother to look down that far. XD

MZeroX
February 13th, 2012, 03:51 AM
cool, i'm free pretty much all tuesday, so it's just whenever kenta is ready (if we're awake).

Marth
February 13th, 2012, 03:58 AM
Mmm, it is indeed GMT -5 as I thought. (I forgot to edit my timezone stuffs before, apparently.)
I should be awake/available, but make no promises. Knowing my luck, I'll end up being dragged off somewhere for the day or something. -_-

MZeroX
February 14th, 2012, 03:50 PM
So marth is on, and I assume ready to play. Kenta, you there but invisible?

KENTA
February 14th, 2012, 04:05 PM
I am here.

MZeroX
February 14th, 2012, 04:07 PM
and marth just signed off. oh well. i'm gonna go camp in the 7776 lobby, since I really don't much to do other than astrophysics midterm, which I can put down at anytime for glorious mahjong.

MZeroX
February 14th, 2012, 04:12 PM
btw, since there's only three of us, only in the bottom four "tables" will there be enough of us to start a game. right column are hanchan matches (east and south rounds), and left column are tonpuusen matches (east round only).

KENTA
February 14th, 2012, 04:12 PM
I shall do the same whilst possibly playing FE6.

Marth
February 14th, 2012, 04:40 PM
*wanders into the lobby*

I'm here now. :p

(Sorry about that. Got dragged off twice by computer-illiterate relatives. ;_; )

MZeroX
February 14th, 2012, 04:59 PM
And here we go, our first BL organized match.
http://tenhou.net/0/?log=2012021505gm-0019-7776-914e1c0f&tw=0
this is starting from my point of view. Marth is to my left, and Kenta is across from me. I hope more people are willing to watch than just us. Anyways, let's get this going, shall we~

Marth
February 14th, 2012, 05:00 PM
As I said before: Well, that was kinda like being violated in a dark alley. XD
Still fun though. :3

Mine, here: http://tenhou.net/0/?log=2012021505gm-0019-7776-914e1c0f&tw=1

Fear my indecision, and watch as it ruins me! -_-

KENTA
February 14th, 2012, 05:04 PM
KENTA doesn't know how to do those. He does know, however, that Zero's Tsumo's killed him dead.

Marth
February 14th, 2012, 05:05 PM
http://tenhou.net/0/?log=2012021505gm-0019-7776-914e1c0f&tw=2

That's yours, KENTA. :)

MZeroX
February 14th, 2012, 05:10 PM
The first thing to realize is how three player and four player are different from each other.

First of all, the lack of the the manzu suit. the ones and nines are left in for the sake of kokushi musou, but 2-8 of that suit is wholly violated. This reduces the amount of the possible shuntsu, so the games tend to gravitate more of the koutsu set. As such, as seen here, it is helpful to aim for either toitoi, or fanpai hands--ones that cooperate with calling pon or kan without messing up your hand value too much. Also note that chii cannot be called. as such, pushing for a shuntsu style yaku is not generally the best of ideas if you're still in the early stages of hand building.

Second, the pei dora. since there is a missing seat wind (due to lack of a fourth player), that excess wind is considered a dora. so that you don't recalculate it every hand switch, the north dora was decided upon howeverness. This becomes a huge factor in three player. There is an abundance of koutsu, so kans being declared is normal. There are additional north wind doras. Moreover, there are red doras. Three player is then a dora landmine field--going for quick hands and focusing on dora sets is basically all you can do if you don't want to be raced into the ground.

Third, same as normal mahjong. sometimes, you just don't draw what you need. Nothing you can do here but try to play statistics, or look at ponds and hope you spot a pattern that you can use.

KENTA
February 14th, 2012, 05:10 PM
Thanks, now everyone can see my poor decisions~

There were two separate times in that game where I went "I just did something. I don't know what, but it was something."

MZeroX
February 14th, 2012, 05:12 PM
I think you were referring to the north dora declarations. those are kinda confusing if you haven't played three player before. how you went for fanpai often is extremely good in three player, though. previous post says why, but it was still a good decision. Well, when you declared the east pon in south round when you weren't dealer confused me, but the overall action was good.

Marth
February 14th, 2012, 05:15 PM
Yeah, that last riichi I got? Total fucking bomb on my part.

"Let's riichi and hope they drop a two-pin I need to complete my hand, hurr-durr."

...and so KENTA does. Thanks, man.



;__;

MZeroX
February 14th, 2012, 05:18 PM
Kenta with that honitsu in south 1 scared me. with two pons and a north dora, i thought he also had a toitoi. i was scared, since my hand was pretty much solid, and stuck in a state where danger tiles are everywhere. i was a bitch to a the draw, and only luck stopped me from not discarding into him. ^^;

we should definitely play again. (i'm okay with right now, but i understand if you want to look over each other's hands first, and try to sort your strategies first.)

Marth
February 14th, 2012, 05:21 PM
That match...was not my best moment, that's for certain. I second-guessed myself and ended up taking apart one of my hands. I really need to stop doing that. =/

MZeroX
February 14th, 2012, 05:24 PM
yeah, i think of it this way--in mahjong, the only thing that is certain are the things in front of you. So your own hand, and your own discard pile. And since we're playing online, the revealed dora indicator. Opponents' discard piles may have some sort of impromptu camouflage, so they aren't as reliable, above their face value. in that case, the only things you can have rightful confidence in are your own hands. So don't second guess yourself.

Marth
February 14th, 2012, 05:27 PM
It's a self-confidence thing, really. ;_;

And I'm seeing one of you waiting in one match, and one in another? XD

EDIT: I'm nomming chocolate and chilling. If you folks want to do more matches, I'm all set. If not, I'll wander back to lobby 0 probably.

EDIT 2: Unless that's the same person in both rooms. Never thought of that until just now.

KENTA
February 14th, 2012, 05:28 PM
Maybe later, but right now I'm mahjong'd out. Doesn't take much to do that to me. Should be good in a few hours if you guys will still be up/here.

Marth
February 14th, 2012, 05:31 PM
I'll be up, but I don't know if I'll be online or not. Should be, though.

MZeroX
February 14th, 2012, 05:33 PM
i enter both rooms; the only difference is that the top one has a 10 second wait period +5 after draw, and the bottom one has a 5 second wait period +5 second after draw. if you wait long enough, the initial wait is reduced, though your +5 seconds per draw isn't. but yeah, if kenta is mahjong'd out, and no one else is willing, then we should wait for him to recover.

Marth
February 14th, 2012, 05:36 PM
Alright, I'ma wander back to lobby 0 and do some more matches, then.
If you need me, chuck me a message or something.

KENTA
February 14th, 2012, 09:31 PM
I love it when Marth and Zero ruin my hands.

Marth
February 14th, 2012, 09:31 PM
What the fuck, guys? I wasn't supposed to win that! Stop ruining my expectations, dammit!

MZeroX
February 14th, 2012, 09:31 PM
And Marth pulls victory from the jaws of defeat!
http://tenhou.net/0/?log=2012021510gm-0019-7776-aed24b59&tw=1
poor kenta.

KENTA
February 14th, 2012, 09:34 PM
Seriously hate you guys.

http://tenhou.net/0/?log=2012021510gm-0019-7776-aed24b59&tw=1

Marth
February 14th, 2012, 09:34 PM
That was wholly unexpected. See, when I go into these matches, I fully expect to get roflstomped by Zero (and possibly KENTA), not pull a win out of my ass. -_-

KENTA's: http://tenhou.net/0/?log=2012021510gm-0019-7776-aed24b59&tw=0

Zero's: http://tenhou.net/0/?log=2012021510gm-0019-7776-aed24b59&tw=1

Mine: http://tenhou.net/0/?log=2012021510gm-0019-7776-aed24b59&tw=2

MZeroX
February 14th, 2012, 09:35 PM
if it makes you feel any better, kenta, Marth wasn't supposed to have won that last hand--he only pulled ahead of me because of the ura dora giving him three additional han. dealer haneman hurt. that being said, i've won with that kind of scenario multiple times, so i'm not really complaining. it's just kinda lulzy. and another reason I love the game. luck can curbstomp anyone.

KENTA
February 14th, 2012, 09:36 PM
Never expect to be roflstomped by me. I'm pretty bad.

Marth
February 14th, 2012, 09:37 PM
^^ What he said. ;_;

^ I've no indication as to how well you play, so I automatically assume you're better than me because, let's face it, most folks are.

MZeroX
February 14th, 2012, 09:37 PM
wanna go again? this time i'll try not to be distracted by checking TT in the middle. >.<;

Marth
February 14th, 2012, 09:42 PM
All set to go, boys.

KENTA
February 14th, 2012, 09:48 PM
And once again my love of music has distracted me and fucked me over partly.

Marth
February 14th, 2012, 09:52 PM
KENTA, I am so, so very sorry for that....

;___;

Mine: http://tenhou.net/0/?log=2012021510gm-0019-7776-8ec5ac97&tw=2

Zero's: http://tenhou.net/0/?log=2012021510gm-0019-7776-8ec5ac97&tw=1

KENTA's: http://tenhou.net/0/?log=2012021510gm-0019-7776-8ec5ac97&tw=0

KENTA
February 14th, 2012, 09:53 PM
Alright, well Marth absolutely raped everything and everyone, so I think I'm gonna call it a night on that. God, that was painful.

MZeroX
February 14th, 2012, 10:24 PM
seriously, another sanbaiman? that's ridiculous. then again, i do still think tenhou rng is more kind than it is supposed to be, but I guess that that kindness gets people to come back.

Marth
February 14th, 2012, 10:26 PM
I'd prefer kindness over the asshattery of the gamedesign one. =/

Y u gotta hate on my win?(even if it was completely luck) ;__;

MZeroX
February 14th, 2012, 10:27 PM
marth, get back on. some other people showed up, so i'm bombing their games. we need one more person for 4p.

Marth
February 14th, 2012, 10:28 PM
I am on. =/
So, who else we got on now? Or is it random asshats? :p

MZeroX
February 14th, 2012, 10:29 PM
fourth person where, then? it says there are four people in this lobby. ;_;
I know that there are at least three people who weren't you or kenta, since I bomb'd their last game. didn't really do much, but got greedy and wanted first instead of settling for second, which lead to ending up in third.

Marth
February 14th, 2012, 10:31 PM
I see that. Chat announces when a game is done, apparently.

MZeroX
February 14th, 2012, 10:32 PM
balls on chest, the third person left, too. guess it's over for today. oh well, it was pretty fun. need to do this again, next time when i don't have an exam in front of me. take home exams are the worst, since i end up distracted and they end up not done. ;_;wait, someone is back. grrr, so much confusion.

Marth
February 14th, 2012, 10:34 PM
That may have been me logging out and back in, actually. Wanted to check something.

MZeroX
February 14th, 2012, 10:37 PM
gah, fourth person left, and third person doesn't seem to want to play 3p. oh well, guess that is it for now. down for thursday?

Marth
February 14th, 2012, 10:38 PM
For future reference:

Unless otherwise stated, I am always to be considered 'available', as I'm jobless right now. ^_^'

And yeah, Thursday is fine.

MZeroX
February 14th, 2012, 10:41 PM
yeah, i knew that. i should have put it on a different line as more of an announcement to everyone else (lack of "you" was my attempt to make the statement wider than 2nd person). ^^;

Marth
February 14th, 2012, 10:44 PM
Ah. ^_^'

On that note, I'ma hang out in the 7776 lobby for awhile. I'm just surfing porn and reading, anyway.

MZeroX
February 15th, 2012, 07:51 PM
anyone down for a game now?

KENTA
February 15th, 2012, 09:10 PM
I'm down.

Marth
February 15th, 2012, 09:14 PM
I'm not doing anything, really. Might as well. I'll be in the lobby.

MZeroX
February 15th, 2012, 09:32 PM
i like how you guys replied when i wasn't on, lol. oh well, i'll just hound the lobby, then. see y'all there sometime.

Marth
February 15th, 2012, 09:37 PM
Was mostly replying to KENTA, not you. :p

EDIT: Looks like that acquaintance I mentioned is on. I'll see if I can rope him into a few games with us. ^_^

KENTA
February 15th, 2012, 09:55 PM
Up for 4 player if you guys get that third to stick around.

Marth
February 15th, 2012, 10:04 PM
Yeah, he's still around. Gotta finish this 3-p one, first.

Marth
February 15th, 2012, 10:11 PM
If I didn't know better, I'd say one of you was trying to drive me into negatives. ;__;

KENTA
February 15th, 2012, 10:11 PM
FUCK YEAH! SECOND PLACE!

Marth
February 15th, 2012, 10:12 PM
Note to self: Chat + mahjong = bad

MZeroX
February 15th, 2012, 10:12 PM
marth be mad. since i'm not even really paying attention.
http://i.imgur.com/z89fv.jpg

Marth
February 15th, 2012, 10:13 PM
Mad? Not as such. Just mildly irritated. Typing responses to Thelas and then tabbing over into Mahjong is apparently a good way to fail hard. XD

MZeroX
February 15th, 2012, 10:14 PM
apparently playing Ar Tonelico 1 and just looking over every now and then puts me in, first, though.

Marth
February 15th, 2012, 10:15 PM
You've probably forgotten more mahjong shit than I currently know, man. :p

KENTA
February 15th, 2012, 10:16 PM
KENTA was eating, watching Basketball, and talking with Zero.

MZeroX
February 15th, 2012, 10:24 PM
probably. mahjong is more second nature to me, though i do play differently when i focus. basically, i don't give a rats' ass about defense when i'm just screwing around, but then my scores get smaller due to defensive playing when i do focus.

geenius3ab
February 15th, 2012, 10:58 PM
Akagi got me into Riichi Mahjong. I understand most of the basics, but there is still a number of cases where hands that I think should work open, doesn't.. :(
Though to be quite honest, I enjoy playing Mahjong the most when I play with people I know.

If I do play Mahjong, I play on Mahjongtime.. Don't know if there are any other better places to play Mahjong on?

MZeroX
February 15th, 2012, 11:08 PM
we're using tenhou, which is wholly free to use. the /0/ lobby is for random matches against anyone, and the /0/?#### lobbies are where you can plan to meet with certain people; here, we use lobby 7776. if you're having some yaku trouble,

the second post of this thread (http://forums.nrvnqsr.com/showthread.php/1004-Zero-s-Guide-to-Riichi-Reach-Mahjong-rules-points-and-general-discussion?p=319724&viewfull=1#post319724) has them listed, as well as a java based randomized multiple choice testing program that you can use to grind your yaku memory.

KENTA
February 18th, 2012, 01:38 AM
Anyone want to play?

MZeroX
February 18th, 2012, 01:50 AM
i'm down, anyone else online?

KENTA
February 18th, 2012, 02:11 AM
YES! YES! YES! YES! YES!

WORLD HEAVYWEIGHT CHAMPION!

YES!

MZeroX
February 18th, 2012, 02:42 AM
yeah, that was pretty steep loss, lol. for some reason (i shit you not), my rng luck goes down the shitter whenever deviousj gets on. my tsumos are non-existent.

Marth
February 18th, 2012, 11:52 AM
I'll be in and out of the 7776 lobby for most of today, if anyone wants to get a game going.

MZeroX
February 18th, 2012, 06:59 PM
i'll probably lurk there, since the only thing i'm doing today is homework.

MZeroX
February 18th, 2012, 10:12 PM
deviousj is on and willing to play, so if someone wants to hop on, that'd be great. or if two want to hop on, that'd be even better.

Marth
February 18th, 2012, 10:14 PM
Sure.

...Onwards, to glorious defeat! :3

Marth
February 18th, 2012, 10:39 PM
That went about as expected. Jesus, I still fail so hard. ;_;

MZeroX
February 18th, 2012, 10:39 PM
you predicted it, man.

Marth
February 18th, 2012, 10:40 PM
Because compared to just about anyone else, I'm damn bad. Why? I'm still figuring that part out.

MZeroX
February 18th, 2012, 10:52 PM
discards, man. you only have control over what you drop.

Marth
February 18th, 2012, 10:53 PM
AGAIN. WE GO AGAIN.

I will bash my head against this wall of mahjong-ness until I learn, or I will die from it!

@[email protected]

MZeroX
February 18th, 2012, 11:09 PM
basics:
if everyone is ponning everything, danger tiles are usually the ones that have no other appearances in the discard piles.
if everyone is maintaining closed forms and it seems like straights are being built, watch for numbers being dropped every three spaces apart (1-4-7, 2-5-8, 3-6-9).
Also try to relate what your discard piles look like generally to what others discard piles look like. If you think you see some sort of pattern giving away how the hand is being built, then test the waters--drop things that you think might be danger tiles, and if you end up discarding in, that that pattern might be of some use--of what not to drop next time.

Marth
February 18th, 2012, 11:13 PM
Yeah, I'm learning that. Pond reading, wheeee~
Still, there are times when something I'd think would be damn safe and it ends up...not safe. XD

And I think I kinda figured out part of my problem:

Back when I first started playing mahjong, one of the first things I was advised to do was aim for riichi. However, I've recently found that, frankly, it seems to work far better if I hold off on it awhile, if indeed I riichi at all. I seem to have clung to the 'must riichi' bit too much, it would seem.

Any logic in that, or am I confused again?

MZeroX
February 18th, 2012, 11:21 PM
when you're learning, you don't have any knowledge of yaku. riichi bestows your shitty yaku-less hand with a yaku, so you can ron shit. once you start getting yaku down, riichi becomes something you use less often, since you are no longer bound by your lack of yaku. riichi also forces you to get used to keeping your hands closed, which is a big part of riichi mahjong. so yeah, aiming for riichi when you're a total n00b is definitely good advice.

However, once you do get yaku knowledge, the restrictions on riichi can harm you. not being able to control your discards is one of the biggest restrictions. and in the same vein, you also can't change your hand if you happen to draw a tile that can alter your hand into a higher scoring one.

basically, when you don't know shit, it gives you a chance to win, which feels good if that chance comes to fruition. keeps you motivated to play. when you do know stuff, riichi becomes just another option, and it's a risky one. if you've built your hand well, riichi can be a pretty good option due to high reward, even with its risks.

Marth
February 18th, 2012, 11:24 PM
Mmm, that's about what I thought. Still working on my yaku-fu, though.
Once or twice in that last match, I got ronned off of and couldn't do much about it as I had riichi'd. Saw it coming, but couldn't do much about it. -_-
Mmm, time for more I suppose. My head has stopped spinning and my arms have feeling in them again. ^_^'

MZeroX
February 18th, 2012, 11:44 PM
noooooes. my come back suuankou didn't go through. all i needed was a tsumo...

Marth
February 18th, 2012, 11:45 PM
Am I giving you all my bad luck, Zero? :(

MZeroX
February 18th, 2012, 11:46 PM
oh hell no. my luck exponentially decreases whenever deviousj is involved. you're completely unrelated to that, lol.

Marth
February 18th, 2012, 11:46 PM
Is that your way of saying you get stomped when he's around? :p

MZeroX
February 18th, 2012, 11:48 PM
well, it does apply, but even in other things irl, my luck plummets to the shitter when he's around. unfortunate that he's one of my best friends and all, lol.

Marth
February 18th, 2012, 11:51 PM
Quite amusing when someone ruins your hand with a 2k tsumo or such, eh?

"One more fucking tile, come on..."

"Tsumo."

"FUUUUUUU-"

MZeroX
February 18th, 2012, 11:53 PM
it's the worst when you've already calculated the numbers and are in tenpai, instead of just planning it and getting stuffed before you can do anything.

Marth
February 18th, 2012, 11:58 PM
...y'know, that's the FOURTH time I've gone against my gut instinct and paid for it. -_-

*is ronned off of*

MZeroX
February 19th, 2012, 12:13 AM
don't discard the dora when it's sudden death, man. >.<;

Marth
February 19th, 2012, 12:16 AM
Whenever you see me fuck up, repeat this to yourself:

"He's still learning. He's still learning."

It will explain 75% of my screwups.

The other 25%? Just me being a bit daft. ^_^'

MZeroX
February 19th, 2012, 12:22 AM
i am, but you see.
sudden death: winner is whoever breaks the score limit first
dora=hand inflation
you just don't drop it, man. at least that late in the game.

Marth
February 19th, 2012, 12:24 AM
Eh, I'm done for tonight anyway. Far beyond tired at this point. Was fun, though. At least I didn't get horribly murdered this time around. ^_^'

geenius3ab
February 19th, 2012, 04:58 AM
Really?!
MY F-ING GOD! .. Seriously? .. I played about 2 rounds on Mahjongtime .. From the look of my tiles, it felt like I was getting lucky, then to be extremely dissappointed by my draws EVERY SINGLE TIME! But I still didn't give up and got quite a number of decent hands ready, some that could've been quite big and would have brought me an come-back .. 4 of those ''got my hand ready at last'' times I pulled the enemies winning tile, while having to discard it (And they had a 2k hand or so.).. Then another time I saw a possible Yakuman hand while I was falling short about 50k from the constant winner and I was the last East.. Guess what.. He and some other dude declared riichi on the FIRST turn.. And as my perfect luck would have it.. I had to discard the tile for their victory.. Hell I even had 4 doras on a decent value once..
I would continue this rage, but I'm now I'm feeling sadness instead of rage. :(

Is the ''below 4'' hand an open one or a closed one?.. Could look through the scary wall of text, but I was like ''The guys here are quite ok, so lets ask them'' :neco_arc:

MZeroX
February 19th, 2012, 05:05 AM
...but it's a wall of images, not a wall of text. ;_;

anyways... "below 4"? ummm. what? ^^;

I would answer if I could figure out what you're trying to say...

if you don't know how to clarify "below 4", you can skip the entire first post, since that's basic rules post. the second post is scoring and yaku, but just scroll through it until you see the grid lines of the charts I made, which is where all the yaku are listed.

geenius3ab
February 19th, 2012, 05:23 AM
Well it's just that all the dots, bamboos, man tiles are 1-4 (123, 234,111,444) with honors and winds included. I do think it gives extra points, but I might be majorly wrong as well. -_- ..

MZeroX
February 19th, 2012, 05:28 AM
If you mean 123 and honor tiles, then that's Hon-Chanta (having 789 also works, as well as pure ones or pure nines). If you have the same number sequence in all three suits, then that's sanshoku doujun. Both can be open, but there are more points awarded if you stay closed.

MZeroX
February 19th, 2012, 05:37 AM
EDIT: (123, 234,111,444) with honors and winds included.
oh, these tiles. hmmm, there isn't anything particularly special that combination of numbers. you probably just got something like a double valued wind during dealer seat (having the east wind set when you're dealer AND it is an east round counts for both seat wind and round wind, so two han are awarded; this also can happen with south seat in south round. if the place you're playing has continuance if a certain point value isn't reached, then west and north have this opportunity too.).

geenius3ab
February 19th, 2012, 06:20 AM
oh, these tiles. hmmm, there isn't anything particularly special that combination of numbers. you probably just got something like a double valued wind during dealer seat (having the east wind set when you're dealer AND it is an east round counts for both seat wind and round wind, so two han are awarded; this also can happen with south seat in south round. if the place you're playing has continuance if a certain point value isn't reached, then west and north have this opportunity too.).

Ah that was it, thought it was strange that I got that much value out of my hand. Thanks.:rider:

MZeroX
February 19th, 2012, 06:24 AM
no problem. if you have any more questions, feel free to ask. i can't make any guarantees on how speedy a response will be, since it's nearly 2:30 AM in my time zone, so i should be sleeping, but other players might also answer, so don't hold back. the better you get, the more fun it will be to play you.

MZeroX
February 19th, 2012, 07:40 PM
who wants to play? or rather, who is free?

Marth
February 19th, 2012, 07:43 PM
Will be in a minute, once I finish losing horribly to this 3-dan. ^_^'

EDIT: Ruined the bastards plans with my crappy tsumos twice. No good hands for you~ :3

MZeroX
February 19th, 2012, 08:36 PM
MARTH WITH A SUUANKOU IN THIS HOUSE. oh snap, son, back the fuck up.

MZeroX
February 19th, 2012, 08:55 PM
...so yeah, sorry about all of those ura dora based limit hands. and that rinshan. that should never happen, lol. >.<;

Marth
February 19th, 2012, 08:57 PM
That Suuankou was mostly luck, really. I wasn't trying for it specifically.

"Pretty tiiiiles, let's match em' up. :3"

^_^'

MZeroX
February 19th, 2012, 09:00 PM
a yakuman is a yakuman. take it, bro.

Marth
February 19th, 2012, 09:15 PM
Fine! I will! @[email protected]

http://i.imgur.com/IiZGu.jpg

:p

MZeroX
February 19th, 2012, 10:03 PM
seriously though, those were some pretty good matches. no one clear lead. you're getting better, man.

KENTA
February 19th, 2012, 10:54 PM
Hanging out in the lobby if you guys want to play.

MZeroX
February 19th, 2012, 11:19 PM
...man you guys are horrible for my school commitments.


i'm in.

Marth
February 19th, 2012, 11:21 PM
Mmm. Might as well.

Marth
February 19th, 2012, 11:39 PM
That was quite fun, gentlemen. I like matches like that, where it's not clear who's gonna win it. ^__^


Mine: http://tenhou.net/0/?log=2012022012gm-0019-7776-324cf36f&tw=2
KENTA's: http://tenhou.net/0/?log=2012022012gm-0019-7776-324cf36f&tw=0
Zero's: http://tenhou.net/0/?log=2012022012gm-0019-7776-324cf36f&tw=1

KENTA
February 19th, 2012, 11:40 PM
DAMMIT MARTH! I WAS SO CLOSE!

MZeroX
February 19th, 2012, 11:41 PM
both of you, back on. deviousj is willing. and i think the phone calls will finally stop, so i can concentrate. 4P, let's rock.

Marth
February 19th, 2012, 11:41 PM
^^ Welcome to my world, dude. That's me, 90% of the time.

"VICTORY IS MINE!"

"Ron."

"FUUUUU-"

KENTA
February 19th, 2012, 11:41 PM
Let's do this shit.

KENTA
February 20th, 2012, 12:09 AM
Ugh, actual Mahjong. I'm so bad at it.

Marth
February 20th, 2012, 12:10 AM
I'm still worse.

MZeroX
February 20th, 2012, 12:10 AM
again again! it's great practice.

Marth
February 20th, 2012, 12:11 AM
But I don't liiiiiike 4-p~ ;__;

*pouts*

(And I get enough of it on gamedesign anyway)

MZeroX
February 20th, 2012, 12:13 AM
but 4P is glorious emperor mahjong, while 3P is scrappy plebeian mahjong~
/whatisthisidon'teven

Marth
February 20th, 2012, 12:16 AM
THAT WIND.

THAT WIND.

THAT EFFING WIND.

I looked at it for some time, and said to myself:

"Duncan, dude, if you discard that, you KNOW someone will fucking ron off it. It's the last tile you don't really want/need, so of course someone else needs it. Don't fucking pitch it."

...I pitched it.

-____-

MZeroX
February 20th, 2012, 12:19 AM
yeah, i declared riichi expecting the other side of the wait to come out or get tsumo'd. getting the fanpai was a pretty "wtf okay i'll take it" moment.

Marth
February 20th, 2012, 12:21 AM
My mahjong instincts. Why do I keep ignoring em' so much? ;_;

MZeroX
February 20th, 2012, 12:27 AM
confidence, man. the only thing that's certain in mahjong is your own hand and your own discard pile. everything else is LIES AND DECEIT. in that case, ignore it and do what you feel like. >_>;

...okay, that's actually horrible advice, but still. you should at least listen to yourself.

Marth
February 20th, 2012, 12:33 AM
I think it's the minor OCD in me. It sees a single wind sitting there and it drives me NUTS. =/

Must. Grind. More. Defensive. Strategy.

MZeroX
February 20th, 2012, 12:35 AM
get back on the 4P tables, the aekami-ran/emilio is dropping in. let's play agains~

Marth
February 20th, 2012, 12:40 AM
idontlike4p.gif

MZeroX
February 20th, 2012, 12:48 AM
but that's actual mahjong.

Marth
February 20th, 2012, 12:58 AM
@[email protected]

Marth
February 20th, 2012, 01:40 AM
FINALLY.

Jesus mother of fuck, that was long. And kinda boring. And a prime example of why I like to stick to 3p matches.

MZeroX
February 20th, 2012, 01:42 AM
so you shut out my mounting offense for a come from behind victory because you got tired?
;_;

also, that wasn't that long of a game. i've been in single matches what lasted over three hours because of the tightness of playing...

Marth
February 20th, 2012, 01:43 AM
Yeah, actually. I'm fucking exhausted, dude. ;_;

EDIT: And it was hardly a victory. I still failed rather badly overall. =/

MZeroX
February 20th, 2012, 01:46 AM
man, those types of games are what I play for (deviousj, too). i think i said it in my declaration, too. I want a massive game that exhausts everyone. that was pretty tough defensively. Aekami-ran plays for the lulz, hence the chinitsu and the double kans. he just likes screwing around. ^^;

Marth
February 20th, 2012, 01:47 AM
That match made me think too much, given how tired I was when I went into it. ;_;

I shouldn't think so much. Thinking is hard~

MZeroX
February 20th, 2012, 01:50 AM
at least you were thinking. well, at least until that last hand. seriously though, a suuankou-tanki and scoring a ron against aekami-ran would have been a comeback victory for you. sure its pretty distant, but with me in the final dealer seat and pretty far back, i'm gonna shoot for fast hands that tend to be low scoring until i get into striking distance. you could use that time to build up a yakuman, man.

Marth
February 20th, 2012, 01:51 AM
You forget that my yaku-fu is pitiful. I'm still working on that, bro. =/

EDIT: The last three hands were, frankly, me just playing to get it over with a bit faster. I was getting really tired at that point, as I am right now actually. Time to sleep I suppose.

MZeroX
February 20th, 2012, 01:53 AM
suu-an-kou. four concealed koutsu. you got one earlier today, too. to ron it, you just need the four koutsu already made. can't use that excuse for that hand, man.

RE:EDIT: oh well, rest up. i still think that once you get better, you'll find 3P isn't as tension filled, and gets you less of a rush.

Marth
February 20th, 2012, 01:55 AM
...I did?

Seriously, I haven't looked at that last match's replay yet.

I...did?


Fuck.

Motherfuck.

Why do I not know/notice these things until after the fact? ;_;

(In all honesty, I did not notice that. Epic fail is epic.)

geenius3ab
February 20th, 2012, 09:53 AM
Why is there nothing concerning ''getting back into the flow of the game'' ?! :illya:
I lost every single game for the last (5 sessions or more.) cause of HORRENDOUS luck, and don't get me started with my last week! *sigh*
My bad luck has given the enemies INSTANT mahjong hands (Think it's called tenhou, remember it being in Gintama..), tons and tons of tiles while in riichi that have helped the others win.. And with me waiting for the whole match to get 1 tile to finish my tenpai, but it not showing up.. etc etc .. >_<
Mahjong has never been so dissappointing. :(

MZeroX
February 20th, 2012, 06:01 PM
"flow" is pretty... unexplainable, even if you believe in it.

Tenhou is a yakuman obtained by declaring tsumo-winning on the very first draw of the game by the dealer alone. There is no chance for anyone to declare riichi if Tenhou is declared. So you're probably just remembering wrong. If riichi is declared on the first turn, then that's a "double riichi", which works the same as a normal riichi declaration, but is worth 2 han instead of 1 han.

Yeah, if you're stuck in iishanten (1 tile away from tenpai), everyone else is in tenpai, AND you've been unable to progress for multiple turns, then instead of trying to win that hand, it's better to just discard safe tiles to avoid discarding in. You know, folding because your options are either a noten payment of up to 3000 ten, or maybe a limit hand that could be up to sixteen times that. ^^; Sometimes you just need to count your current losses and pick the path of least pain.

Marth
February 20th, 2012, 10:32 PM
One acquaintance of mine said that folding when the opponent looks to be nearing a completed hand/declares riichi is something he does about 80% of the time, as it's usually not worth it to risk dealing into their hand.
I'd have to agree, really. Nothing worse than dealing into someone's hand because you tried to complete your own instead of playing defensively.

geenius3ab
February 20th, 2012, 11:41 PM
"flow" is pretty... unexplainable, even if you believe in it.

Tenhou is a yakuman obtained by declaring tsumo-winning on the very first draw of the game by the dealer alone. There is no chance for anyone to declare riichi if Tenhou is declared. So you're probably just remembering wrong. If riichi is declared on the first turn, then that's a "double riichi", which works the same as a normal riichi declaration, but is worth 2 han instead of 1 han.


I didn't think the name ''tenhou'' was correct. I did mean that some guys did get mahjong on the first turn I played with them.. And of course I was the dealer when they did it (Happened about twice in 5 sessions.).. That's ridicolous bad luck. :(
Well by ''flow'' I meant luck.. Anything like an morning ritual to improve ones luck?
Well I almost never deal into a persons hand, most of the times I deal into someones hand when I have just declared Riichi, and then I'll be *facepalming* for a minute or two..
Of course I'm somewhat of a beginner in Mahjong, which means I do have a hard time looking at what others are going for, though I still think that I will have a general idea what is safe to play and what is not.

I will really have to move to the table where you're playing at, cause I will just run out of points in seconds in Mahjongtime. :/

Marth
February 20th, 2012, 11:54 PM
As Zero mentioned in his opening post for this topic, lobby 7776 (http://tenhou.net/0/?L7776) on tenhou is where we usually have our games. Another player is always welcome.

For those that may be unfamiliar with tenhou, this link (http://www.osamuko.com/complete-beginners-guide-to-online-mahjong-part-1-how-to-play/complete-beginners-guide-to-online-mahjong-%E2%80%93-part-1-5-%E2%80%93-playing-on-tenhou/) should be of use.

MZeroX
February 20th, 2012, 11:58 PM
ah, yes, a tenhou explanation link would be nice.
http://arcturus.su/tenhou/
this is what I ended up on when I was trying to learn to play.

Marth
February 21st, 2012, 12:00 AM
That one is nice, though a bit technical and a tad overwhelming if one is simply looking for how to log-on and such. Either one works well, though.

And mine has pretty pictures, too. :p

MZeroX
February 21st, 2012, 12:12 AM
hmmm, i guess i've played enough eroge that i didn't have any problem figuring out how to log in. >_>;

MZeroX
February 21st, 2012, 01:37 AM
Kenta, you on? wanna play?

Marth
February 21st, 2012, 01:41 AM
Nice post count, Zero. :p

I'm up for one more match, before I wander off to do other stuffs.

Marth
March 2nd, 2012, 02:11 AM
I'ma just leave this here. XD

http://i.imgur.com/oBmT1.jpg




Explanation:

Used the Goumoupai cheat repeatedly at the start of the match.(swaps a tile in my hand for a white dragon, no limit on uses)

MZeroX
March 2nd, 2012, 05:26 AM
nice reference to mudazumo.
http://i.imgur.com/egXqo.png

Marth
March 2nd, 2012, 09:26 AM
Yeah, the guy that made the BvS version mahjong (which is what the screenshot is from) is a big fan of all things mahjong-related. :)

MZeroX
March 2nd, 2012, 10:05 AM
still, a septuple yakuman. that's so... impossible. i've worked it out, the highest valued hand possible without goumoupai shit (but if you get it, either you have luck surpassing god or you cheated... so basically you cheated) is a sextuple yakuman. and this is only if your playing with rules that allow double yakuman valued special yakuman. daisuushi, tsuuiisou, and suuankou tanki make up the first 5 yakuman values, and then the sixth yakuman value is either suukantsu or tenhou. you could say chiihou or maybe renhou, but then it wouldn't be highest possible value in the case of the former, and the latter isn't a universally accepted yaku.

well, i guess if you're playing on a really loosely ruled table and you can still get tenhou after ankan declarations (so tenhou is measured by first discard, rather than first draw), then a septuple yakuman would be possible, by getting both suukantsu and tenhou with the other 3 yakuman, two of which are doubles.

Marth
March 2nd, 2012, 10:21 AM
It was a test match I did on the 'Super Easy' setting, which is as follows:

The opponent will never call tiles off you or catch you cheating

So, uh, yeah. Even with Goumoupai, it's still almost impossible due to the way cheating works in BvS mahjong. The Goumoupai cheat has a flat 15% chance to fail when used(and cost me 15k when I get caught, to boot) and each time it is used, successful or not, the chance of being caught next time rises by 2%.
Assuming a natural draw of 4 white dragons, that's still about 10 times I'd have to cheat to get all white dragons.

15% for the first
17% for the second
19% for the third

All the way up to 35% fail chance for the last one. It'd be almost impossible in a normal game.

Only reason I tried it is because the BvS wiki mentioned it as being a secret hand of sorts. Wanted to see it for myself. :p

EDIT: Wanted to see what a ron of it would look like, so I did it again for lulz.

http://i.imgur.com/whjIX.jpg

MZeroX
March 2nd, 2012, 10:24 AM
oooh, variable difficulty levels. maybe i should give this BvS thing a spin sometime in the future.

Marth
March 2nd, 2012, 10:29 AM
For reference, the difficulty levels are:

Single Round (East)

Super Easy
Players will not call tiles or ever catch you cheating

Easy
Players have a 60% chance to not call tiles / win

Medium
Opponent plays normally, L/R are 20% not-call/win

Medium Hard
Opponent has a 1-draw advantage

Hard
2-Draw / 1-Draw advantage

Temple Pro
4-Draw / 2-Draw advantage

MZeroX
March 2nd, 2012, 10:31 AM
Temple Pro sounds like a great setting for defensive grinding. also what my irl hands usually look like. struggle to get a mangan, man. haneman and baiman are pretty rare and "ooooooh, shit, son!" inducing. sanbaiman and yakuman are almost impossible to get.

Marth
March 2nd, 2012, 10:33 AM
Temple Pro is...rough. The norm for that difficulty is that the AI will get at least two double riichi per match. It's insane how much they skew hands in their favor.

But yes, it is good for defensive grinding. Came out third in a match today and counted myself as lucky. -_-

MZeroX
March 2nd, 2012, 10:38 AM
yeah, with my irl set, the aekami-ran and deviousj have both gotten double riichis on me (not at the same time, mind you) when my shanten count is still so high you don't even bother talking about it. as in my hand doesn't even have a yaku shape or useful looking set. temple pro sounds pretty realistic to me.

Marth
March 2nd, 2012, 10:46 AM
Finally decided to sit down and go through Mudazumo. What happens when you take 30% over-the-top shenanigans and mix it with 30% manly faces and 40% mahjong?

You get Mudazumo. XD

MZeroX
March 2nd, 2012, 10:49 AM
*she has two red dragons and the rest are tanyaochuuhai*
*discards the dragons*
"hmmm, so she's given up on the daisangen..."
*Taizo pisses himself again in wonder at world leader's mind processes*

Mudazumo is great. It's a lesson to every mahjong player in the world. Every hand, regardless of composition, is a chinitsu or yakuman waiting to happen.
>______>;

Marth
March 2nd, 2012, 10:51 AM
I was supposed to be playing epic Monmusu Quest pronz right now. Instead, I'm reading Mudazumo.

...not sure if that's a pro or a con. :p

MZeroX
March 2nd, 2012, 10:53 AM
it's a pro. you get increased heart rate causing breasts to grow in by multiple stages of magnitude all on the same page.

Also, I imported my part 1 data form monmusu onto part 2 after i finished part 2, and my encyclopedia of part 2 got wiped, even though my saves are still there. it makes me sad. so monmusu is starting in con territory for me atm.

the first line is mahjong relevant, I swear. this is still on topic!

Marth
March 2nd, 2012, 12:58 PM
"Draw me a bath powered by hell itself."

0____0

MZeroX
March 3rd, 2012, 05:20 AM
hell's wait (tanki wait on a tile that already has two of the tile in the pond)
bathing in your opponent's blood because mudazumo makes it rain


...or touhou.

Marth
March 3rd, 2012, 06:31 AM
Well, finished reading Mudazumo(for now). Amusingly enough, I kinda want to see more of dat nazi loli.

...I wonder what that says about me. ^_^'

MZeroX
March 3rd, 2012, 07:12 AM
you like girls and mahjong and especially girls who play mahjong?

Marth
March 3rd, 2012, 07:15 AM
http://i.imgur.com/oSmHG.jpg

:3

Hmm, time to find another manga to read. Right after I eat. Must eat in order to play moar mahjong, too.

MZeroX
March 3rd, 2012, 07:25 AM
Read Ten ~Tenna Toori no Kaidanji~ [Ten ~The Nice Guy on the Path of Tenhou~]
Excellent mahjong manga. Predates Akagi in publishing so is finished, but Akagi is the prequel of Ten... So you get old man Akagi in Ten being god tier all of the time.

themasterwarlord
March 3rd, 2012, 11:03 AM
Dammit, I played mahjong on PSP's Saki a year ago, but never did able to remember the scoring, let alone a yaku set. I just form a winning hand without calculating the scores, blindly. I also cannot read an opponent's hand AT ALL. As a result, my wins are 80% done on luck. most of them are even go-mi (trash;500/300). ;_;

TELL ME HOW TO REMEMBER THE SCORING CALCULATIONS AAGH!!!

MZeroX
March 3rd, 2012, 11:57 AM
...the first few posts of this thread?

In scoring, there are 3 aspects you need to keep in mind--fu count, han count, and seat position.

fu is pretty basic... memorize the table, learn how to add and round. things tend to be worth worth more if they're concealed, and the same applies to fu. getting kans also gives more fu, so baturally a fully concealed kan grants fu in massive amounts. han count is 100% learning your yaku. you can't play mahjong unless you have a grasp of yaku. seat position is basically "are you dealer or not?" if you're dealer, "base points" are doubled. if you're not dealer, base points are base points. there's a yaku hand composition game/quiz program in the second post of this thread. there's also a hand calculation tutorial program/game in the second post of this thread as well. the hand calculation one tests your fu, han, and ten count per randomly generated hand. the hand composition quiz gives you a random hand, and you click what yaku you think are relevant to the hand and hit submit.

anyways, assuming you mean actual calculations and not trouble remembering yaku...
fu is calculated on composition of sets in your hand. closed yaochuu kans are 32 fu, open yaochuu kans are 16 fu. closed tanyao kans are 16 fu, open tanyao kans are 8 fu. closed yaochuu "pons" are 8 fu, open yaochuu pons are 4 fu. closed tanyao pons are 4 fu, open tanyao pons are 2 fu. yaochuu pair is 2 fu, tanyao pair is 0. single wait win is 2 fu. fully concealed tsumo is 2 fu unless pinfu or rinshan kaihou. concealed ron is 10 f4. and them up and round to the nearest tenth, that's your fu count.

han count is simply "how many han is this yaku worth?" add them up straight. then if you're too lazy to do the actual calculation, look at a table that has han count versus fu count and see what it's worth. if you want to do the actual calculation, it's
base point = fu x 2^(2+han count)
this is rounded to the nearest 100s place, and this is the base point score. at 5 han or more (or in the case of 70+ fu - 3 han, or 40-60 fu - 4 han), "limit hands" are imposed to reduce the burden of calculation--these are mangan, haneman, baiman, sanbaiman, and yakuman. these "limit hands" have a fixed base score. how base score is used depends on if you're dealer or not. in the case of being dealer, on a tsumo win, the amount each player pays is double the base score. in the case of a non-dealer tsumo, other non-dealers pay the base score, and the dealer pays double the base score. on a ron win, the total theoretical value of the hand as if it were tsumo won is considered, then that amount is payed in whole by the one discarding in. that is to say...

in the case of a mangan limit hand, the base score is 2000. this means that a dealer tsumo means the other three players pay 4000 each. this leads to a total of 12000 ten, which is how much you have to pay the dealer if you deal into a dealer mangan. if a non dealer tsumos a mangan limit hand, the other two non dealers pay 2000, and dealer pays 4000. this comes to a total of 8000, which is what a non-dealer mangan ron is worth.





tl;dr: anyways, this ENTIRE post is just me copying what was said in the second post of this thread, which also develops through a few more posts in discussion. if you read through that and are still confused, I can try explaining any specific questions, but the amount of leg work you need to do on your own is much if your trouble is still at the yaku memorization level. there are training programs in the second post if that is your trouble, though. please do use them.

http://forums.nrvnqsr.com/showthread.php/1004-Zero-s-Guide-to-Riichi-Reach-Mahjong-rules-points-and-general-discussion?p=319724&viewfull=1#post319724



still tl;dr: ummmm. yeah. about that...

Marth
March 3rd, 2012, 12:29 PM
RAGERAGERAGERAGERAGE!




......GAAAAAAAHHHH!

http://i.imgur.com/txJIw.gif













Inclination to keep playing tenhou: Approaching negative values

geenius3ab
March 3rd, 2012, 04:15 PM
If we're talking about riichi mahjong then remembering which hands are open and closed will give you a base.

Knowing basic hands is still vital. 3 color straight is simple (234,234,234 + anything else.) .. No ends (2,3,4,5,6,7,8) is a simple closed hand. While a simple ends (1,2,3 and 7,8,9) is a great open hand to aim for.. And three's only (Hand formed from pons and kans.).

In all honesty I personally can't count all the points that I can get for my hand. But I can still know which hand is more valuable, and an approx number of points that I'd get.

Next is to know which is a better hand, and forming it to fit doras, round winds, your own wind. Having a random wind that gives no points is usually no good, but it does help in forming your hand.


The next stage is reading the waits of your opponents, but that's a bit further out..

P.S: How the hell is it possible to read an opponents hand in Hong Kong mahjong?

Marth
March 3rd, 2012, 04:22 PM
I was raging at the goddamn wench that got this (http://i.imgur.com/pY9Cl.jpg) and this (http://i.imgur.com/nzbw9.jpg), both in one match, actually.
Lookit that score go, Pa! 66.2k higher now, it is! -_-

MZeroX
March 3rd, 2012, 04:59 PM
you don't. there isn't a furiten rule in hong kong mahjong, iirc, so it's literally just a race to complete your hand fastest. well, the same general ideas still apply, since people will still tend to discard useless tiles, but it isn't as tight as riichi mahjong's reading depth.

geenius3ab
March 3rd, 2012, 05:02 PM
That Mahjong seems ''slightly'' boring compared to RCR.

Marth
March 3rd, 2012, 11:07 PM
I stalked you here from your profile page, Zero. I SEE YOU THERE. YOU CAN'T HIDE.

^_^

Also, one tile away from Suuankou again, somehow. Didn't get it. That feel. Feels so bad, man. =/


AtleastIdidn'tgetronnedoffthistime


Question time: What's the statistical probability of getting a Kokushi Muso in a normal 4p game?

MZeroX
March 3rd, 2012, 11:25 PM
shitty. too lazy to look up the actual number, but unless your starting hand is almost there already, you'll just end up getting frustrated and going for a chanta/junchan/honroutou/chitoi. that being said, kokushi is more likely than a honroutou-chitoi, so it isn't impossible... but don't count on it if it isn't given to you.

Marth
March 4th, 2012, 06:25 PM
Start match...

"Alright, let's do th-"

Two 4-dans.

"...fuck."


It went about as expected. Still kinda hate tenhou for not having any sort of distinction between rankings. There's nothing I can do in a match like that. I tried my best, and I got driven into the negatives so fucking fast it nearly made my head spin.

Anyway, back I go again. Must. Grind. Moar.

Marth
March 7th, 2012, 12:01 AM
http://i.imgur.com/3XEFd.jpg
http://tenhou.net/0/?log=2012030712gm-0019-0000-113398f0&tw=2

Mmmm, winning~

I love matches like that one. Back and forth, no clear victor (until NoName started dropping to 15k or so, anyway.) and I started off horribly and ended up making a comeback partway through.

Though that 12k ron that NoName got off me should never have happened. I know better than to drop a pin when their pool barely has any in it. >_>

EDIT: Looking at the replay, I'm surprised I won, and that Left didn't. He got some goddamn nice hands more than once.

MZeroX
March 8th, 2012, 03:01 PM
any of you guys want to get a game going?

Marth
March 8th, 2012, 05:42 PM
Late reply is late. Too tired anyway, been up all day/night. Tomorrow, maybe?

Kyuu
March 9th, 2012, 09:35 PM
Greetings. My name is Kyuu. I managed to find this forum via a Google search and led me exactly to this thread. :3

Marth
March 9th, 2012, 09:43 PM
Welcome to the Beast's Lair. :)
Amusingly enough, I've found images from this thread while doing a google search for mahjong stuff.
We tend to use http://tenhou.net/0/?L7776 for matches whenever we get enough folks. Should be having a few matches tomorrow(or sometime thereafter), assuming Zero can clear his schedule. Feel free to join, if you want.

MZeroX
March 10th, 2012, 03:36 PM
Welcome to the Lair of the Beast King. The fact that a thread of mine is turning up on google searches makes me pretty happy and paranoid at the same time. Anyways, the residual drunkenness is still here, but I can actually see my monitor now, so if you guys want to play sometime soon, I'm down.

Kyuu
March 10th, 2012, 07:18 PM
Anime Central Tournament (http://www.acen.org) (Mahjong Taikai 3)

This year, the Tournament will be round elimination based. There will be 16 seats available, divided into 4 tables. The top 2 players from each table will proceed to the next round. Prizes will be awarded to the top 4 players in the Tournament.

The rules for this Reach mahjong tournament is as follows:

* Closed Simples
* Aka Dora ~ 2 red 5 pins only
* Cannot pon, if first opened with a chi
* Warame enabled (The person's wall that is broken in the deal; if he wins, gets payed double, if someone ron off of him, he pays double)
* Yakitori(-20,000 pts if a player hasn't won a hand during an entire game.)
* Paarenchan (8 consecutive wins from a dealer, 9th round any hand is yakuman)
* Double Ron enabled
* If a Dealer deals more than 2 turns, than 2 yaku is required to go out.
* Yakuman bonus (+30,000pts)
* Kan of aka dora (+3,000pts)

===

Of course, this is only relevant if you do plan to go to this convention and play the game. Just lettin' y'guys know about a group of us trying to make these kinds of things happen. Otherwise, disregard it. :3


Welcome to the Lair of the Beast King. The fact that a thread of mine is turning up on google searches makes me pretty happy and paranoid at the same time. Anyways, the residual drunkenness is still here, but I can actually see my monitor now, so if you guys want to play sometime soon, I'm down.

Yea. I'm also a casual Starcraft player. So, the word "metagame" comes up a lot there. Thus, I considered the search: "mahjong metagame" and ended up here. Despite playing mahjong on a weekly basis with real tiles, I've picked up my frequency to play this game lately.

I mean, lol. Look what I just did to Saki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_Saki_episodes&action=history

XD

Marth
March 11th, 2012, 01:06 AM
As a side note, I'm usually awake from about 10 pm to 10 am (GMT -5), most days. Hooray for differing time zones and sleep schedules~ ^_^;

MZeroX
March 11th, 2012, 06:24 AM
too far away, don't have the money. i'd love to play, but location matters irl... ;_;

and on the note of metagame, I guess it'd be good to actually discuss it in more depth here, though I fear that if we go at it too hard, it might scare off potential players. PM discussions might be best if you really want to grind the metagame here.

MZeroX
March 16th, 2012, 07:52 PM
anyone free to play?

Marth
March 16th, 2012, 08:43 PM
Blargh. Feeling quite tired, really. And late reply is late anyway.

Still, if we've another able to play, sure. Otherwise, I'ma head to bed.

Tangerang
March 18th, 2012, 02:57 AM
I wonder how many mahjong players there now are here

MZeroX
March 18th, 2012, 03:13 PM
kenta is willing to take a seat, marth prefers 3P, you and I obviously can play.
MasterSeth is on the grind, so isn't quite ready yet, but will get there eventually.
Kyuu seems to know how to play, but I personally haven't seen him play. Geenius3ab seems to also be on the grind, but maybe that's been rectified of late.
I'm still in touch with Aekari/Emilio and deviousj/doping_panda, so there are definitely enough to get games going. Marth knows a few people, too. There could even be more players that just haven't said anything.

Marth
March 18th, 2012, 10:41 PM
Mmmm, Thelas is on every now and then. Pretty rare given how busy he is. IIRC he's not a member here, though.

I prefer 3p, but I don't mind 4p either. It's just that usually we only have at most 3 folks on tenhou at once, for some reason. :p

Kyuu
March 21st, 2012, 06:43 AM
I wonder how many mahjong players there now are here

Personally, I'll be looking to increase that number around the Midwest... by teaching it (to anyone interested). With a couple of partners, I am scheduled to run a mahjong panel at Anime Central geared towards teaching the game, as well as touching up on the history and media (anime) references to the game.

About 3 weeks ago, three people (counting myself) went up to Anime Milwaukee looking to meet up with some mahjong people. It turns out, they play standard Chinese style, and our timing didn't allow us to meet them. Yet, we set ourselves up in the game room and ended up teaching a couple people. Plus, a few who know the game also joined up for a couple rounds.

And that was cool :3

So, if you can, spreading this game would be nice.

:D


MZeroX[/B]]I personally haven't seen him play.

I have a couple tenhou game archives in a couple forum threads.
http://forums.animesuki.com/group.php?do=discuss&group=&discussionid=1900

If you can see that thread anyways...

In summary, my defensive game needs work, as in, when to go in defense mode. Selecting safe tiles, that's not too much of a problem. But, I'm clingy with tenpai... as in... totally unwilling to bail on them. That gets me into plenty of trouble as well. Playing with real tiles really helps with reading the discards, as you're more self-conscious about losing points in the presence of people, than online; yet, once I allowed myself to play into someone's Dansaigen -- even though, 2 sets of the dragons were pon'd. To that, I LOL'd and was amused. XD

Yet, unfortunately, my Internets can gone down the tubes, where I may have to switch ISPs. I even lag in tenhou for the past week, and it sucks.

Marth
March 21st, 2012, 06:48 PM
In summary, my defensive game needs work, as in, when to go in defense mode. Selecting safe tiles, that's not too much of a problem. But, I'm clingy with tenpai... as in... totally unwilling to bail on them. That gets me into plenty of trouble as well.

As I've learned the hard way:

Unwilling to bail on tenpai = Loss of points

Well, usually anyway.


yet, once I allowed myself to play into someone's Dansaigen -- even though, 2 sets of the dragons were pon'd. To that, I LOL'd and was amused. XD

Your Dansaigen fail can't be any worse than a match I had where one player managed two freaking yakuman. One of which was Dansaigen. Talk about RNG favoritism. Or luck. Whichever. Point is, it was fail from start to finish. And I didn't even get ronned off of.


Haven't had any matches in some time. Been busy with other stuff. And with spring here finally, lots to do.

Kyuu
March 22nd, 2012, 03:20 AM
Ah, the double yakuman. Felt great scoring one of those babies, despite getting nailed by Tsu Iiso today.

In case you're curious, here are the Yaku hit rates in Tenhou:
http://tenhou.net/sc/prof.html

The funny thing is: I don't see Su Kantsu anywhere. Its hit rate must be really really low.


As I've learned the hard way:

Unwilling to bail on tenpai = Loss of points

Well, usually anyway.

Aye. The key thing is to bail hoping to get right back into tenpai, or just giving up all-together. When in the lead, this decision is much easier to make. Otherwise, quite the dilemma playing catch up. Oh teh pain.