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SeiKeo
September 13th, 2011, 09:06 PM
So, this is a thread to gather information on all those topics that get argued over all the time. Empty for now, but will get more information soon. People, source all claims.

Ryougi can see dots <-----> Ryougi can't see dots

See seen in Chapter 5/Paradox Spiral and chapter 1 where we see swirly lines and cross sections but no dots. Good morning America, and hello ensuing word battle.

Are Ryougi's eyes are better then Tohno's.

Kinoko: It's not quite so much the eyes, but how (R) Shiki perceives things that has a large effect on her powers. First, Mystic Eyes and brains work as a set. For example, Tohno Shiki from "Tsukihime" normally can't cut concepts like Shiki does, but that's because the specs of the Mystic's Eye's user's brain is different. Tohno Shiki isn't suited in the aspect of recognizing "concepts". (Ryougi) Shiki touched " " and became specialized in the visualization of events, while (Tohno) Shiki became submerged in death and became specialized in killing living things. By the way, Asagami Fujino's Mystic Eyes also work the same way. In her case, she can't twist things that she recognizes as not being twistable.

Interviewer goes on how about how amazing Shiki's eyes seem, given that she can cut space and concepts, and that it really feels like that "as long as it's alive, I can kill God" line isn't an exaggeration. But..

Kinoko: "As long as it's alive", however. The thing is, God isn't alive or dead so Shiki can't do anything to him. However, Shiki can kill what she thinks to be "alive", for example, say a telephone that she perceives as "being alive because it's not broken". On the other hand, if it's broken and therefore feels it's "already dead", she won't see lines.


両儀式【人名】
 りょうぎ しき。空の境界の主人公。志貴と同じく死の線が見えてしまう体質。
 着物に革ジャン、編み上げブーツという出で立ち。
 ナイフを常備しているが、本当の獲物は日本刀。
 両儀という苗字にも、式という名前にもしかるべき意味があり、
 その為に志貴より数段上の直死の魔眼の使い手といえる。
 志貴とは何もかもが正反対。月姫における志貴の性格は黒桐幹也に近い。
 詳しくは空の境界本編を参照のコト。

"She is a Mystic Eyes of Death Perception user several ranks above Shiki (Tohno)."

Source: Ryougi Shiki, Plus Period

100%

Ryougi Shiki vs Tohno Shiki vs Emiya Shirou
Not even gonna bother explaining.


From http://ranbukai.xgn.jp/tsukihime_zadankai2.htm
(http://ranbukai.xgn.jp/tsukihime_zadankai2.htm)

福外鬼内 |> 月姫の吸血鬼(真祖と死徒)って人間と子供作れるんですか?<きのこさん (2/17(土)1:28)


ほんきのこ > 福外鬼内 さん>今のところ、成功例はただ一人みたいです。 (2/17(土)1:29)

Fukugaikinai: Can the vampires of Tsukihime (True Ancestors and Dead Apostles) make children with humans?
Honkinoko: Fukugaikinai: At the moment, it looks like there's only one successful case.


(which makes the 真祖と人間の間に子が生まれた例は過去に一例だけである on Jonnovi somewhat incorrect, unless Kinoko clarified it later?)

And, I'm just going to drop this link off also if anyone wants to dig up some other stuff without having to go through the old Typemoon chats.
http://jbbs.livedoor.jp/bbs/read.cgi...95/1091591896/ (http://jbbs.livedoor.jp/bbs/read.cgi/otaku/995/1091591896/)


http://fsn.seorinwastaken.com/archive/170.html

Hohoho, it seems EMIYA was the one carrying out the miracle after all.

Vague, but good enough.

God Hand is B inclusive, NPs can be the item. http://forums.nrvnqsr.com/showthread.php/1034-General-Facts-About-Controversial-Topics?p=349831&viewfull=1#post349831

SeiKeo
September 13th, 2011, 09:06 PM
Reserved post.

SeiKeo
September 13th, 2011, 09:07 PM
Again, reserved.

Lianru
September 13th, 2011, 09:09 PM
Arc powerlevels.

EDIT: jk, food made one about just arc?

Neir
September 13th, 2011, 09:16 PM
Sakura.

Lianru
September 13th, 2011, 09:16 PM
Gilgamesh.

SeiKeo
September 13th, 2011, 09:17 PM
Arc powerlevels.

EDIT: jk, food made one about just arc?

IDK, he said somebody who's on more should make it, and I'm on far more than I should be, heh.

Lianru
September 13th, 2011, 09:19 PM
OK.
Both of the Berserkers (FSN, F0).

HitokiriNanaya
September 13th, 2011, 09:20 PM
Sakura is not more deserving of Shirou's love than Rin or Saber

There I said it =/

Altima of the Gates
September 13th, 2011, 09:24 PM
Good show Hitokiri! xD
But you forgot your canonical evidence to go along with your claim. :p

But seriously, I think the one who opened the thread should put that disclaimer for this thread, that actual canon evidence must come with claims in order to solidify them as fact.

Oh boy, this is gonna be fun, I just know it.

Lianru
September 13th, 2011, 09:26 PM
But you forgot your canonical evidence to go along with your claim. :p

But seriously, I think the one who opened the thread should put that disclaimer for this thread, that actual canon evidence must come with claims in order to solidify them as fact.
Wait, so am I supposed post both sides of the arguments too? And justification?
I'm tired. I'll edit them tomorrow.

SeiKeo
September 13th, 2011, 09:27 PM
Good show Hitokiri! xD
But you forgot your canonical evidence to go along with your claim. :p

But seriously, I think the one who opened the thread should put that disclaimer for this thread, that actual canon evidence must come with claims in order to solidify them as fact.

Oh boy, this is gonna be fun, I just know it.

Yeah, good idea.

eddyak
September 13th, 2011, 09:30 PM
Unlimited Unlimited Crap Works.

mist2123
September 13th, 2011, 09:33 PM
INB4 Sakura thread:D

Mcjon01
September 13th, 2011, 09:33 PM
Fate/Extra is canon.

Source: Fate/Extra

Sherrinford
September 13th, 2011, 09:40 PM
Fate/Extra is canon.

Source: Fate/Extra

Suuuuuuuuure... not.

Source: a well working brain.

/ :3

Lianru
September 13th, 2011, 09:41 PM
The canonity of Fate/Extra is very controversial.

Source: BL

Mcjon01
September 13th, 2011, 09:54 PM
It's not that controversial. It'd be less annoying if even half the people going around talking about how obvious it is that Extra is a completely unrelated project had actually played the game.

Cruor
September 13th, 2011, 10:31 PM
Ryougi can see dots <-----> Ryougi can't see dots

See seen in Chapter 5/Paradox Spiral and chapter 1 where we see swirly lines and cross sections but no dots. Good morning America, and hello ensuing word battle.

Are Ryougi's eyes are better then Tohno's.
Sorry, I lost the the quote again (Even after you gave it to me), and I think I just realized things in quotes may not show up in searches (or rather I think it works sometimes and it may not work others. If that's not the case then it's that I can't remember if I asked you for it on the old board or on this board. I'd do a Google Advanced Search but it seems Google hates us or this is a private forum and they set searches to this site off), Dartz, can you give me the Nasu quote for this again?

Ryougi Shiki vs Tohno Shiki vs Emiya Shirou
Not even gonna bother explaining.

Do Servants get stronger then when they were in life.
Servants/CGs like Archer!Emiya did. But most Servants like Saber and Lancer actually became weaker.

I'll try thinking of more.

SeiKeo
September 13th, 2011, 10:33 PM
Ryougi can see dots <-----> Ryougi can't see dots

See seen in Chapter 5/Paradox Spiral and chapter 1 where we see swirly lines and cross sections but no dots. Good morning America, and hello ensuing word battle.

As far as I understand this, it's that she can't see dots, but she can use lines with the same function, right?

Kotonoha
September 13th, 2011, 10:33 PM
It's not that controversial. It'd be less annoying if even half the people going around talking about how obvious it is that Extra is a completely unrelated project had actually played the game.

Yeah, Sherrinford, weren't you saying you would never play it?

ratstsrub
September 13th, 2011, 10:38 PM
In the spirit of the thread already:


Servants/CGs like Archer!Emiya did.

Wut.

Dartz
September 13th, 2011, 10:46 PM
@Cruor: No problem:


Kinoko: It's not quite so much the eyes, but how (R) Shiki perceives things that has a large effect on her powers. First, Mystic Eyes and brains work as a set. For example, Tohno Shiki from "Tsukihime" normally can't cut concepts like Shiki does, but that's because the specs of the Mystic's Eye's user's brain is different. Tohno Shiki isn't suited in the aspect of recognizing "concepts". (Ryougi) Shiki touched " " and became specialized in the visualization of events, while (Tohno) Shiki became submerged in death and became specialized in killing living things. By the way, Asagami Fujino's Mystic Eyes also work the same way. In her case, she can't twist things that she recognizes as not being twistable.

Interviewer goes on how about how amazing Shiki's eyes seem, given that she can cut space and concepts, and that it really feels like that "as long as it's alive, I can kill God" line isn't an exaggeration. But..

Kinoko: "As long as it's alive", however. The thing is, God isn't alive or dead so Shiki can't do anything to him. However, Shiki can kill what she thinks to be "alive", for example, say a telephone that she perceives as "being alive because it's not broken". On the other hand, if it's broken and therefore feels it's "already dead", she won't see lines.

ratstsrub
September 13th, 2011, 10:49 PM
Oh no it's that cut space thing again.

food
September 13th, 2011, 10:50 PM
I think this is what Cruor meant:

両儀式【人名】
 りょうぎ しき。空の境界の主人公。志貴と同じく死の線が見えてしまう体質。
 着物に革ジャン、編み上げブーツという出で立ち。
 ナイフを常備しているが、本当の獲物は日本刀。
 両儀という苗字にも、式という名前にもしかるべき意味があり、
 その為に志貴より数段上の直死の魔眼の使い手といえる。
 志貴とは何もかもが正反対。月姫における志貴の性格は黒桐幹也に近い。
 詳しくは空の境界本編を参照のコト。

"...She is a Mystic Eyes of Death Perception user several ranks above Shiki (Tohno)."

Source: Ryougi Shiki, Plus Period

EDIT:

The first part is not too relevant, it's talking about how the two parts of the name, "Ryougi" and "Shiki" each has a corresponding meaning.

You know, Japanese is concise (or as my English teacher ages past call them, super run-on sentences).

ratstsrub
September 13th, 2011, 10:51 PM
Of particular note:

user


Wait did you just bold that sentence in the original?

That's hard to tell...maybe you should color it in red.

Five_X
September 13th, 2011, 11:06 PM
Not really controversial, but an interesting note:

Herakles, as many know, was summoned through a piece of a temple, which was later carved into its familiar axe-sword shape.

What is less often pointed out is that this piece of rock probably doesn't come from an actual Greek temple. Even barring the logic that a) breaking apart temples is kind of illegal in fifteen different ways, it's specifically noted that the rock was part of "a temple Einzbern prepared" and was in essence a pseudo-Greco-Roman structure. Perhaps this means that, with a technically faulty catalyst, Herakles could have been summoned better...?

Just something I noted.

Source: Fate/Stay Night (the visual novel)

ratstsrub
September 13th, 2011, 11:11 PM
it's specifically noted that the rock was part of "a temple Einzbern prepared"

Wut.

Five_X
September 13th, 2011, 11:12 PM
Yeah, apparently they built a temple to summon him with.

Somehow, it really seems like an Einzbern-y kind of thing to do.

ratstsrub
September 13th, 2011, 11:14 PM
No, I'm looking for source here.

Like, where in there. Narrow it down to Route, then to before certain scene, after certain scene, and what not.

Exact quote is the best.

(Because from what I remember, it's more like, 'prepared from Temple', and not, 'Temple was prepared')

Five_X
September 13th, 2011, 11:16 PM
It's from the weapon status screen.

I don't think it's really something to cause controversy, just an amusing note, jeez.

"It is part of the foundations of a temple Einzbern prepared and this itself was the catalyst to summon Berserkser."

The sentence structure implies that it was the temple that Einzbern prepared, and the rock was taken from that.

Going into more depth:

The sentence structure used here is a bit complex as it has a long main clause, with "the foundations of a temple" as the object of the verb "prepared", as well as the subject, "Einzbern". Technically, it's strange English, but it works I guess for the style that mirrormoon was going for.

deadfish
September 13th, 2011, 11:25 PM
Uh. They didn't prepare a temple. It's typical parsing that's getting you thrown off. They procured part of the foundation of a temple of his. Foundation of a temple they prepared, with the they prepared or whatever going with the foundation not the temple.

ratstsrub
September 13th, 2011, 11:25 PM
Yeah definitely not what you think.

Damn it arai, why you ninja me.

Five_X
September 13th, 2011, 11:30 PM
But the adjoining clause specifies the axe-sword, drawing focus from it to the foundations of the temple in the main clause. The idea presented in the main clause is the foundations of the temple, which were prepared by Einzbern, and the secondary clause focuses on the axe-sword so that it doesn't get dragged into the main clause, despite the stupid use of "It" at the very beginning.

In more proper english, the sentence would be thus:

"Part of the foundations of a temple (that) Einzbern prepared, this (itself) was the catalyst to summon Berserker."

I'm really getting confused about what mirrormoon meant with this, but I think they should have read it over a bit first.

Source: English Major. :P

Elyrin
September 13th, 2011, 11:31 PM
Arai has japanese, you have translation.

Arai wins, as long as he didn't derp.

Five_X
September 13th, 2011, 11:32 PM
I wonder how many ancient relics have been destroyed as a result of the Holy Grail War...

Clearly, UNESCO does not exist in this universe.

deadfish
September 13th, 2011, 11:33 PM
Source: English Major. :P

Which is totally irrelevant to the actual meaning.

Five_X
September 13th, 2011, 11:34 PM
But what about the whales?

ratstsrub
September 13th, 2011, 11:37 PM
Oh just get over it and stop dragging it out and strike out everything you wrote for like the last *5 posts.

*6

Cruor
September 14th, 2011, 06:50 AM
In the spirit of the thread already:



Wut.

Archer became more powerful with the contract with the world/becoming a CG after his death. Is kinda what I meant.


@Cruor: No problem:
Thanks.

ratstsrub
September 14th, 2011, 09:28 PM
Archer became more powerful with the contract with the world/becoming a CG

Ok.


Related to this:


Do Servants get stronger then when they were in life.
Servants/CGs like Archer!Emiya did.

How?

Tobias
September 15th, 2011, 07:56 AM
I am rather waiting on an answer for that myself.

Nanaya
September 15th, 2011, 08:01 AM
I think he means the contract itself is what did it. That and CG get backup. Rats. Where is my Saber KA card. Jeez.

deadfish
September 15th, 2011, 09:42 AM
I think it's ratstsrub being ratstsrub again.

Do Servants get stronger then when they were in life.
Servants/CGs like Archer!Emiya did. But most Servants like Saber and Lancer actually became weaker.

Also, it makes more sense to get something that's actually said in-game as proof instead of posting what's technically an assumption.

Cruor
September 15th, 2011, 02:16 PM
'Not all Servants are Heroic Spirits' is what I was aiming at. The CG part was also trying to say that CG's also get boosted.

food
September 15th, 2011, 05:34 PM
Haha, define "stronger".

Black Sabre was stronger than Sabre when she was alive, even after accounting for all the penalties applied by the taint.

Five_X
September 15th, 2011, 05:56 PM
Heh. The taint.

TypeWannabe
September 15th, 2011, 06:00 PM
General "Facts"? More like "General Speculation."

Lianru
September 15th, 2011, 06:01 PM
It always goes in that direction after a while.

SeiKeo
September 15th, 2011, 06:01 PM
General "Facts"? More like "General Speculation."

People not given meh quotes. ;_;

food
September 15th, 2011, 06:07 PM
People not given meh quotes. ;_;

Because there isn't a clear quote saying Archer got boosted by the World Pact, or Akasha improves the attributes of Guardians.

It just said the World performed a miracle that saved some people that cannot be saved.

It could be the World just teleported the people away, or it could be the World augmented Archer (so he could solo a vast enemy mob), we don't know.

ratstsrub
September 15th, 2011, 06:57 PM
I think it's ratstsrub being ratstsrub again.

What does that mean ;_;


'Not all Servants are Heroic Spirits' is what I was aiming at. The CG part was also trying to say that CG's also get boosted.

Ok, but related to this:


Do Servants get stronger then(sic) when they were in life.
How?


I don't see the logical connection between your premise:

"Not all Servants are Heroic Spirits"

And your conclusion:

"Therefore EMIYA is stronger as Servant."

deadfish
September 15th, 2011, 08:04 PM
Because there isn't a clear quote saying Archer got boosted by the World Pact, or Akasha improves the attributes of Guardians.

It just said the World performed a miracle that saved some people that cannot be saved.

It could be the World just teleported the people away, or it could be the World augmented Archer (so he could solo a vast enemy mob), we don't know.

Yeah. Now, I vaguely remember hearing an in-game quote about how he suddenly changed after the wish was made, and if that's true, that might imply there might have been some kind of actual change in something to him but, we'd have to fish it out. And even if it is true, it still isn't definite proof.

Tangerang
September 15th, 2011, 08:09 PM
Wasn't he still alive after his wish/contract was made?

ratstsrub
September 15th, 2011, 08:10 PM
I don't think that point is in dispute here.

(Of course he was.)

Lianru
September 15th, 2011, 08:12 PM
Of course.
If he were to die, what would be the point of that power he asked for?

ratstsrub
September 15th, 2011, 08:15 PM
Depends on what he contracted for.

deadfish
September 15th, 2011, 08:18 PM
Wish could be:
1. Save these people plz.
2. Gimme power so I can save these people.

food
September 15th, 2011, 08:19 PM
Depends on what he contracted for.

He didn't die after the contract, because he didn't actually trade his life.

He got forsaken and killed by his allies sometime after he made the pact.

ratstsrub
September 15th, 2011, 08:19 PM
@deadfish

What did you mean?!


He didn't die after the contract, because he didn't actually trade his life.

He got forsaken and killed by his allies sometime after he made the pact.

I don't know why you quoted me.

food
September 15th, 2011, 08:22 PM
He traded his eternal servitude for a miracle, and the result of the miracle is "people were saved".

We don't know the how this miracle was carried out.

ratstsrub
September 15th, 2011, 08:24 PM
Still don't know why you quoted me.

food
September 15th, 2011, 08:30 PM
http://fsn.seorinwastaken.com/archive/170.html

Hohoho, it seems EMIYA was the one carrying out the miracle after all.

Vague, but good enough.

deadfish
September 15th, 2011, 08:33 PM
After that, he changed as though possessed by something and saved people who could not normally be saved.

Okay, that's the thing I was talking about.

food
September 15th, 2011, 08:37 PM
I still wouldn't call it proof of augmentation though.

It seems like a temporary thing, like "God Mode so you can defy Fate", rather than "STR+1".

EDIT:

Interesting it was Archer who initiated the World Pact by casting a spell.

deadfish
September 15th, 2011, 08:40 PM
You mean power overwhelming?

food
September 15th, 2011, 08:42 PM
More like one of those old school cheats. After you input it, the game just fast-forwards, and you see your character auto attacks all mobs and kill them really fast.

deadfish
September 15th, 2011, 08:56 PM
Eh. There were cheats like those?

food
September 15th, 2011, 08:58 PM
You never had clear-level cheat like that?

You input it, your guy just runs around super fast, one-shot'ing bad guys and the level is cleared in an instant.

ratstsrub
September 15th, 2011, 09:05 PM
Maybe for a few side-scrolling beater...but most of my cheats were either invincible or level skip. Y'know, an instant clear level.

food
September 15th, 2011, 09:18 PM
We digress.

This is not a retro-gaming thread.

deadfish
September 15th, 2011, 09:21 PM
Okay well back to something relevant.

Interesting it was Archer who initiated the World Pact by casting a spell.

If you can do that with a spell, you'd figure there'd be more people doing it.

Tobias
September 15th, 2011, 09:22 PM
Would you? How many morons like shirou are ready to make a grade A Faustian bargain like that?

eddyak
September 15th, 2011, 09:22 PM
Except for the whole eternal slavery thing.

deadfish
September 15th, 2011, 09:25 PM
It just sucked for Shirou because he didn't use it for himself.

food
September 15th, 2011, 09:26 PM
Okay well back to something relevant.


If you can do that with a spell, you'd figure there'd be more people doing it.

You can beg, but will the World answer every time?

Tobias
September 15th, 2011, 09:28 PM
It would have sucked for pretty much anyone after they got whatever it was they asked for. We are talking literal sell you soul type stuff. Eternity is a long time.




Also, wasn't there something on fuyuki about people who became CGs were originally people the world gave the power to stop evil, then when they became known as heroes it just pocketed them for later use? The spell might have just invoked that.


Well, maybe not, since saber specifically asked for the Grail.

Lianru
September 15th, 2011, 09:29 PM
I thought CGs were people who weren't heroes.

deadfish
September 15th, 2011, 09:30 PM
Maybe not.
I just keep thinking though that it makes more sense for the world to have actually approached him with the offer (like it would have probably done with Joan since I don't think some peasant girl is going to know any magic), and then he was like, okay sure.

ratstsrub
September 15th, 2011, 09:31 PM
food calling it a spell is a bit weird.


But agent initiation doesn't seem all that less sense making to me. It doesn't have to mean agent caused.

Lianru
September 15th, 2011, 09:32 PM
Huh.
That makes sense. Does anyone actually know how to contact the World to make a pact?
1800-555-GAIA

food
September 15th, 2011, 09:33 PM
I think Tobias is talking about during dire times, Araya will possess individuals and divert humanity away from doom through these heroes.

It is probably exactly what Archer experienced here, except here Araya did not take the initiative, because humanity was not threatened.

In order to mobilize Araya, a payment was demanded.


food calling it a spell is a bit weird.


But agent initiation doesn't seem all that less sense making to me. It doesn't have to mean agent caused.

I did not coin the term, it was in-game.

ratstsrub
September 15th, 2011, 09:33 PM
Just say it out loud. You're on the World, it's not like it's a million miles away.

Tobias
September 15th, 2011, 09:34 PM
Though if arc is any indication even if you get Gaia on the line you have to deal with being put on hold forever wnd shitty reception when you get through.

ratstsrub
September 15th, 2011, 09:35 PM
That's probably Arc's fault. ORT had no problem.

deadfish
September 15th, 2011, 09:37 PM
Hm? So the world was threatened by the English in the fifteenth century?

food
September 15th, 2011, 09:38 PM
Just say it out loud. You're on the World, it's not like it's a million miles away.

It's a contract, and a very powerful and binding one at that, so you probably do need some sort of spell or ritual for it. Not unreasonable.


Hm? So the world was threatened by the English in the fifteenth century?
If the event proceeded, shit might hit the fan.

Guardians were not used, so obviously there was no immediate danger.

EDIT:

It was not dire enough to invoke ungodly natural disasters or unleashing guardians.

However, it was dire enough that subtle manipulation was no longer enough and a direct augmentation/possession was needed.

deadfish
September 15th, 2011, 09:41 PM
Or was there no immediate danger because Shirou got conned into becoming a guardian without getting the benefits and prevented it from becoming an immediate danger?

ratstsrub
September 15th, 2011, 09:42 PM
It's a contract, and a very powerful and binding one at that, so you probably do need some sort of spell or ritual for it. Not unreasonable.

I don't see where it says "probably" or "do" or "need".

And even in that case, I don't see why the World can't be the one who actually cast the contracty-spelley.


I highly doubt Shirou was going to the scene and was like, "Oh shizzle this is bad man, let me go and draw my circle and research all the theory on the spell and blah blah blah so I can cast it right."

Or, for that matter, Saber.

"Oh yeah, totally I'm gonna cast a spell now because, I, King Arthur, am a bitching magus."

food
September 15th, 2011, 09:44 PM
Or was there no immediate danger because Shirou got conned into becoming a guardian without getting the benefits and prevented it from becoming an immediate danger?

LOL.


I don't see where it says "probably" or "do" or "need".

And even in that case, I don't see why the World can't be the one who actually cast the contracty-spelley.

No, we are talking "World Pact", as in the human volunteers himself.

We already know the World can possess you to do its bidding if it wished.

Tobias
September 15th, 2011, 09:45 PM
Or was there no immediate danger because Shirou got conned into becoming a guardian without getting the benefits and prevented it from becoming an immediate danger?

As far as I can tell, he did at least gain the physical benefits, judging from the linked page, not sure if that's what you mean.

ratstsrub
September 15th, 2011, 09:46 PM
I did not coin the term, it was in-game.

Maybe you have a different definition of in-game than me.


No, we are talking "World Pact", as in the human volunteers himself.

World Pact = Pact with the world.

I don't see where in that it necessitate the human volunteers being the one to actualize the machination needed to solidify the contract. All that's required of them is consent. They don't have to cast a spell, just assent to one being cast on them.


Or if we put it in familiar Servant like terms, Servants are the volunteers, Masters are the spell casters, and you're telling me that Servants have to cast their own summoning/contract spell to make a summoning/contract with the Masters, rather than just...accept the spell. That the Master casts.

deadfish
September 15th, 2011, 09:48 PM
"Oh yeah, totally I'm gonna cast a spell now because, I, King Arthur, am a bitching magus."

lolololololol

food
September 15th, 2011, 09:50 PM
Do not doubt Arthur, she has better circuits than any magi.

Elyrin
September 15th, 2011, 09:52 PM
Including Ciel?

terraablaze
September 15th, 2011, 09:54 PM
I imagine the World Pact spell is probably supah easy since apparently "every hero minus Arthur" used it at some point, also earlier spells equal less complex.
It could be like, meet requirements that the World actually wants you for Counter Guardianship/Throne of Heros, wake up one morning with knowledge of the spell and no doubt as to what it is.

^
yes

Mcjon01
September 15th, 2011, 09:57 PM
他の英霊たちは神性が高い、星寄りの存在になっているなどの理由で守護者に取り込まれずに済ん でいる。

There's a little something for Dartz and his crazy idea that Heroic Spirits aren't existences on the same level as Arcueid just because they come from humans.

(Controversy!)

terraablaze
September 15th, 2011, 09:59 PM
@McJon01
What it say?

deadfish
September 15th, 2011, 10:00 PM
I imagine the World Pact spell is probably supah easy since apparently "every hero minus Arthur" used it at some point, also earlier spells equal less complex.
It could be like, meet requirements that the World actually wants you for Counter Guardianship/Throne of Heros, wake up one morning with knowledge of the spell and no doubt as to what it is.

^
yes

I figure this guy just pops up and talks to you telepathically.
http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/8397/berserk26631.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/3/berserk26631.jpg/)


Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

Mcjon01
September 15th, 2011, 10:00 PM
^^Says they're existences close to planets.

food
September 15th, 2011, 10:03 PM
他の英霊たちは神性が高い、星寄りの存在になっているなどの理由で守護者に取り込まれずに済ん でいる。

There's a little something for Dartz and his crazy idea that Heroic Spirits aren't existences on the same level as Arcueid just because they come from humans.

(Controversy!)


Wait, is that the one from Side Material?


他の英霊たちは神性が高かったり、人間側ではなく星よりの存在になっている為、守護者に取り込まれずに済ん でいる。

What you posted seems to be quite different.

Tobias
September 15th, 2011, 10:03 PM
^^Says they're existences close to planets.


Oh, lol, I actually thought you were backing him up there.

TypeWannabe
September 15th, 2011, 10:04 PM
Heroic Spirits =/= Counter Guardians, terra. This has been established. Unless now food and mcjon and everybody who knows Japanese reveals it was all a lie in the first place.

Mcjon01
September 15th, 2011, 10:05 PM
Wait, is that the one from Side Material?



What you posted seems to be quite different.

I'm using Jonnobi right now since I haven't transferred my giant collection of side materials to my new computer.

ratstsrub
September 15th, 2011, 10:06 PM
I imagine the World Pact spell is probably supah easy since apparently "every hero minus Arthur" used it at some point, also earlier spells equal less complex.
It could be like, meet requirements that the World actually wants you for Counter Guardianship/Throne of Heros, wake up one morning with knowledge of the spell and no doubt as to what it is.

^
yes

Seems like a convoluted way to retain an unnecessary concept.

terraablaze
September 15th, 2011, 10:07 PM
There was a scene that said most heroes made pacts with the world in order to be awesome, Saber being an exception in that she did so with her own skills. Unless that was a mistranslation.

^
implying things in the Nasuverse aren't convoluted.

Mcjon01
September 15th, 2011, 10:08 PM
Maybe normally the World is the one that seeks people out for pacts, but Archer wasn't even worth that.

deadfish
September 15th, 2011, 10:08 PM
There's also something else about the only heroic spirit in the game functioning as a guardian being Archer.

Five_X
September 15th, 2011, 10:10 PM
Isn't it sad, Archer? Not even the World loves you. ;_;

TypeWannabe
September 15th, 2011, 10:10 PM
There was a scene that said most heroes made pacts with the world in order to be awesome, Saber being an exception in that she did so with her own skills.

The game is wrong.

food
September 15th, 2011, 10:11 PM
^^Says they're existences close to planets.

That interpretation is incorrect.

It is saying Heroic Spirits with high Divinity are on the Planet's side, not humans'.

ratstsrub
September 15th, 2011, 10:11 PM
implying things in the Nasuverse aren't convoluted.

They're also necessary.

(In before philosophical debate on contingency)

terraablaze
September 15th, 2011, 10:12 PM
@TypeWannabe
Since when?

Dartz
September 15th, 2011, 10:12 PM
他の英霊たちは神性が高い、星寄りの存在になっているなどの理由で守護者に取り込まれずに済ん でいる。

There's a little something for Dartz and his crazy idea that Heroic Spirits aren't existences on the same level as Arcueid just because they come from humans.


^^Says they're existences close to planets.

What does that even mean? I thought the original text said they were close to the planet since they are the elementals of humanity and all. Your statement seems to imply something else.

At any rate, according to fuyuki, they still aren't quite counted among the trascendent species. Dead Apostles are also among the transcendents but just like with Heroic Spirits, they seem to be on a lower scale.

ratstsrub
September 15th, 2011, 10:13 PM
since apparently "every hero minus Arthur" used it at some point

Apparently from what now?

Mcjon01
September 15th, 2011, 10:13 PM
That interpretation is incorrect.

It is saying Heroic Spirits with high Divinity are on the Planet's side, not humans'.

Yeah. That's way, way clearer in the original quote, though.

food
September 15th, 2011, 10:14 PM
Don't panic Dartz, I have protected your precious Arc's name.

You owe me 20 bucks now.

deadfish
September 15th, 2011, 10:14 PM
Technically, the たり has a bit of an "or" (dunno how to put it really) nuance to it.


they still aren't quite counted among the trascendent species.
It's kind of hard to put them in that category when it isn't mentioned in the game and that term is even rarely used in Tsukihime. And even then, it doesn't mean they might not be included in it either.

ratstsrub
September 15th, 2011, 10:15 PM
Including but not limited to?

Did this and that (but maybe also something else, maybe not)

Mcjon01
September 15th, 2011, 10:23 PM
Don't panic Dartz, I have protected your precious Arc's name.

You owe me 20 bucks now.

My current goal is to twist canon statements so much that they end up saying that Arcueid is weaker than Avenger at her maximum power. I will find a way, goddammit.

terraablaze
September 15th, 2011, 10:26 PM
You mean the guy who can only kill the entire human race (some exceptions may apply)? wow so weak.

Elyrin
September 15th, 2011, 10:28 PM
Only the dog and the spider are better than Avenger at killing humans. Arc is neither of those.

/hopeshismemoryisgood

food
September 15th, 2011, 10:28 PM
You mean the guy who can only kill the entire human race (some exceptions may apply)? wow so weak.

That is a misconception.

It is the Greater Grail's INTERPRETATION of Angra Mainyu can kill the entire human race.

Avenger is just "good at killing humans", probably similar to White Dog.

ratstsrub
September 15th, 2011, 10:28 PM
That's not that good. He has a type advantage.

deadfish
September 15th, 2011, 10:30 PM
Only the dog and the spider are better than Avenger at killing humans. Arc is neither of those.

/hopeshismemoryisgood

Dog and spider win in the killing cost because Avenger can't keep up with their pace so he comes in third, but Avenger's quality is number 1.

ratstsrub
September 15th, 2011, 10:35 PM
He kills them more artistically?

Mcjon01
September 15th, 2011, 10:36 PM
I was thinking more the original sucky Servant Avenger that got summoned with rock bottom stats and no survival ability.

Also, after project de-power Arc is complete, I'll embark on the quest to make Shinji stronger than ORT.

deadfish
September 15th, 2011, 10:39 PM
He kills them more artistically?

Dog is just munch munch and spider is I dunno what but laser spam or crystal spam?
But human evil comes in all sorts of colors and shapes

food
September 15th, 2011, 10:39 PM
Technically, the たり has a bit of an "or" (dunno how to put it really) nuance to it.


It's kind of hard to put them in that category when it isn't mentioned in the game and that term is even rarely used in Tsukihime. And even then, it doesn't mean they might not be included in it either.

I always interpret Heroic Spirits are existence even beyond transcendentals.

In KnK, God Word Mayday used the Unified Language to access the Gaian Records, and it is said to be one rank lower than the Akasha Record since it is merely planetary. Since Heroic Spirits are existences admitted by the Akasha Record, they are "super special" now.


Dog is just munch munch and spider is I dunno what but laser spam or crystal spam?
But human evil has so many variations and styles.

Death by Snu-Snu.

ratstsrub
September 15th, 2011, 10:40 PM
What flawed logic.

deadfish
September 15th, 2011, 10:42 PM
Oh, stop being such a ratstrub.

ratstsrub
September 15th, 2011, 11:05 PM
...

Yukiho is not the best idol.

Whoever that is

deadfish
September 15th, 2011, 11:28 PM
Rarfgh!

food
September 15th, 2011, 11:31 PM
Rarfgh!

You mean:

「■■■■■■■■■!」

deadfish
September 15th, 2011, 11:40 PM
I meant that yes.

Something else to add.

From http://ranbukai.xgn.jp/tsukihime_zadankai2.htm
(http://ranbukai.xgn.jp/tsukihime_zadankai2.htm)

福外鬼内 |> 月姫の吸血鬼(真祖と死徒)って人間と子供作れるんですか?<きのこさん (2/17(土)1:28)


ほんきのこ > 福外鬼内 さん>今のところ、成功例はただ一人みたいです。 (2/17(土)1:29)

Fukugaikinai: Can the vampires of Tsukihime (True Ancestors and Dead Apostles) make children with humans?
Honkinoko: Fukugaikinai: At the moment, it looks like there's only one successful case.


(which makes the 真祖と人間の間に子が生まれた例は過去に一例だけである on Jonnovi somewhat incorrect, unless Kinoko clarified it later?)

And, I'm just going to drop this link off also if anyone wants to dig up some other stuff without having to go through the old Typemoon chats.
http://jbbs.livedoor.jp/bbs/read.cgi/otaku/995/1091591896/

food
September 15th, 2011, 11:53 PM
What's the difference?

"There's been only one case in the past" VS "At the moment, there's only one case"

In both versions, I get the idea of "there's only this one mongrel hanging around".

deadfish
September 15th, 2011, 11:56 PM
The question was if a vampire could make babies with a human being and guy asking the question had (dead apostles and true ancestors) in parentheses. Kinoko didn't clarify which.
The Jonnovi guy is assuming that Kinoko meant a True Ancestor.

food
September 15th, 2011, 11:58 PM
The question was if a vampire could make babies with a human being and guy asking the question had (dead apostles and true ancestors) in parentheses. Kinoko didn't clarify which.
The Jonnovi guy is assuming that Kinoko meant a True Ancestor.

Of course, the Jonnobi guy is a true Nasu-fan.

Always assume MAX POWA.

Mcjon01
September 16th, 2011, 12:00 AM
And, I'm just going to drop this link off also if anyone wants to dig up some other stuff without having to go through the old Typemoon chats.
http://jbbs.livedoor.jp/bbs/read.cgi/otaku/995/1091591896/




Heeeey, I think that's the same page I stumbled onto when I was desperately searching for a proper way of rendering Curry De Marche in English. Or French. Or whatever, I don't know how those kind of names work.

...there's a lot of stuff there. <_<


Oh, and hey, guess that's the source of the Lancelot couldn't turn an aircraft carrier into an NP thing. Neat.

food
September 16th, 2011, 12:13 AM
Is this one hybrid still referring to Altrouge?

Or are we trying to spin this interview so that there's another hybrid out there?

I think the Jonnobi guy just assumed the mixed child is referring to Altrouge. "They are talking about Altrouge" was my immediate reaction.

Tangerang
September 16th, 2011, 12:19 AM
Zel Naga hybrid?

deadfish
September 16th, 2011, 12:33 AM
Well.
Question was asking about a human mating with a Dead Apostle or True Ancestor.
Kinoko says, well there was one case of this in the past.

Now, there's a Dead Apostle/True Ancestor hybrid. Does that translate into the same thing as the above, for sure?

food
September 16th, 2011, 12:38 AM
Well.
Question was asking about a human mating with a Dead Apostle or True Ancestor.
Kinoko says, well there was one case of this in the past.

Now, there's a Dead Apostle/True Ancestor hybrid. Does that translate into the same thing as the above, for sure?

We can certainly make a case if we chew the words real hard, and just shout "STFU THAT IS WHAT THE INTERVIEW SAYS" to all dissonance.

However, I have this gut feeling Nasu did not quite absorb the question, and just answered what he thought the question asked. (And people did not drill him further because it is not relevant to the main lore at this moment.)

Hard to say.

EDIT:
We have an example of Nasu having brain fart during interview, like the "Sabre's Riding does not let her ride a motorcycle" thing I stumbled across a while ago.

EDIT2:
Actually, when was this interview? And what was the context?
Is he dropping hints for future characters?

Blastedspider
September 16th, 2011, 03:42 AM
It is saying Heroic Spirits with high Divinity are on the Planet's side, not humans'.
And what does it mean?
They're technically Divine Spirits (or at least semi-Divine Spirits), so they're existence wanted by both planet and humanity, and since closer to the World?


We have an example of Nasu having brain fart during interview, like the "Sabre's Riding does not let her ride a motorcycle" thing I stumbled across a while ago.
What may be not a mistake.
Prior to F/Z Saber's Riding rank was B and she didn't pull any of her crazy bike stunts, but during Fourth War it was A and thus she may be able to do.

deadfish
September 16th, 2011, 09:24 AM
EDIT2:
Actually, when was this interview? And what was the context?
Is he dropping hints for future characters?

http://ranbukai.xgn.jp/tsukihime_zadankai2.htm

Tobias
September 16th, 2011, 09:32 AM
this part?

ほんきのこ > 福外鬼内 さん>今のところ、成功例はただ一人みたいです。

food
September 16th, 2011, 09:37 AM
And what does it mean?
They're technically Divine Spirits (or at least semi-Divine Spirits), so they're existence wanted by both planet and humanity, and since closer to the World?


What may be not a mistake.
Prior to F/Z Saber's Riding rank was B and she didn't pull any of her crazy bike stunts, but during Fourth War it was A and thus she may be able to do.
Gods are created by the planet with ideas contributed by humans, so heroes with higher divinity has more loyalties with the planet.

About Sabre Riding. Nasu already publicly admitted his error, there is nothing to discuss there.

Blastedspider
September 16th, 2011, 10:02 AM
so heroes with higher divinity has more loyalties with the planet.
Loyal or "closer to world", whatever what means? I mean, none of Divine heroes do seems to care about natural order and stuff, and in the latest interview Nasu said something about people with high divinity being classified as Divine Spirits.

food
September 16th, 2011, 10:55 AM
Loyal or "closer to world", whatever what means? I mean, none of Divine heroes do seems to care about natural order and stuff, and in the latest interview Nasu said something about people with high divinity being classified as Divine Spirits.
It is in contrast with Guardians, who are pure human spirits with no Divinity.

Basically human spirits serve humans without complaints, but demigod Heroes do not always heed human summons or fight for the benefit of mankind.

Tobias
September 16th, 2011, 11:25 AM
Gaia: hi, herc? listen, I know its a saturday but I need you to come in today

*music in the back ground

Herc: what? sorry, I cant, I err, have a thing, my...mom is sick, yes, need to bring her food

*female laughter and squealing in back ground*

Herc: ...so, yeah, not gonna be able to make it, why not ask that guy in red?

Gaia: This is really important, I need you to

*back ground: hey herc, we just opened up another keg and medusa and her hot sisters are taking off their clothes!

Herc: SHITSORRYGAIAYOURBREAKINGUPILLCALLYOU!!!!

*click*

*dialtone*

Gaia: .....

terraablaze
September 16th, 2011, 11:32 AM
Pretty sure the World in Archer's case refers to Alaya, I think the World is just used when Nasu talks about the huge set of systems and rules that govern everything.

Mcjon01
September 16th, 2011, 11:34 AM
Yeah, I think there's a distinction between "the world" and "Gaia". Only one is a maybe-semi-sentient thing out to kill all humans.

Tobias
September 16th, 2011, 11:35 AM
this may surprise the two of you to learn that the previous statement may not have been entirely serious....?

Mcjon01
September 16th, 2011, 11:36 AM
This is a new page, previous statements don't exist. I was replying to terra.

eddyak
September 16th, 2011, 12:26 PM
Dog is just munch munch and spider is I dunno what but laser spam or crystal spam?
But human evil comes in all sorts of colors and shapes
Probably the dog kills people by barking at them (I'm thinking along the lines of Unified Language- tell someone to die, and they do, only PM is a dog, and thus probably can't speak).

ORT turns the territory into Mars just by existing. People can't survive on Mars. All it needs to do is stroll through a city and everything around it dies.

SteinsGate
September 16th, 2011, 12:28 PM
ORT turns the territory into Mars just by existing. .
Mercury you mean

Tangerang
September 16th, 2011, 12:32 PM
Mercury you mean

Although it's funnier/more mindfucky the other way.

'What do you mean, the Ultimate creature of Mercury turns the surrounding area into Mars?'

eddyak
September 16th, 2011, 12:33 PM
Mercury you mean
Yeah, that.

Mike1984
September 20th, 2011, 06:55 AM
However, it was dire enough that subtle manipulation was no longer enough and a direct augmentation/possession was needed.

Didn't Joan make a pact, like Shirou?

food
September 20th, 2011, 10:01 AM
There is no evidence that Joan "asked for it" like Archer.

She was given as an example of direct interference from Alaya (still "indirect" because Counter Guardians were not unleashed), in contrast to the subtle interference in KnK (random burglar running into Araya's bound field, one Tomoe mysteriously falling out of the endless spiral).

Mike1984
September 20th, 2011, 10:18 AM
But it makes very little sense for Alaya to care if the English somehow get hold of the French crown....

Tobias
September 20th, 2011, 10:21 AM
clearly English expansionism is a bad thing and in nasu land the reason they are now a little island is because all their colonies were swarmed under by duel wielding, red and black wearing emos right in their prime


Archer: I was summoned into hell..........a place filled with the English..

SeiKeo
September 20th, 2011, 10:22 AM
But it makes very little sense for Alaya to care if the English somehow get hold of the French crown....

Well, who says that was why? Maybe the English would have reached the Root with the French crown jewels or something like that.

Lianru
September 20th, 2011, 10:24 AM
Yeah, you have to remember that magi existed.

food
September 20th, 2011, 10:31 AM
Here is the explanation of the normal "Alaya backup" mechanism (not World Pact).


大抵は抑止力によって後押しされた『一般人』が滅びの要因を排除し、結果として『英雄』として 扱われる。
"Generally the factor that brings extinction is removed by a 'normal person' with the support of the Counter Force, as a result this normal person is treated as 'a hero'."
間接的に働く場合は特定の人間を強力に後押しする。近代ではジャンヌ・ダルクがアラヤに後押しされたらしい 。
"In situations which Alaya works indirectly, it provides powerful backup to designated individuals. In recent times, Joan of Arc seemed to have received the backup of Alaya."


Joan is the most recent example of this, so it is implied if the event at Joan's time proceeded to the finale, extinction of humanity may result.

TypeWannabe
September 20th, 2011, 02:09 PM
See, I keep trying to tell everyone this. The English are secretly trying to kill the world. Go America.

eddyak
September 20th, 2011, 02:10 PM
Note to self: Type knows too much.

I3uster
September 20th, 2011, 02:20 PM
See, I keep trying to tell everyone this. The English are secretly trying to kill the world. Go America.
I don't think I can trust you guys on this one.
After all it's a colony...

SeiKeo
September 20th, 2011, 02:37 PM
See, I keep trying to tell everyone this. The English are secretly trying to kill the world. Go America.

VIVE LA REVOLUTION


I don't think I can trust you guys on this one.
After all it's a colony...

Bah, we told them stuck-up Brits where the heck they could stick their darned tea.

Mellon
September 20th, 2011, 04:31 PM
Bah, we told them stuck-up Brits where the heck they could stick their darned tea.

Yeah and then you spent most of the 20th century destabilizing governments and installing puppet-leaders. :P

Freedom for everyone, indeed.

Lianru
September 20th, 2011, 04:39 PM
Bah, we told them stuck-up Brits where the heck they could stick their darned tea.
It was such a waste, though.....tea is wonderful.

SeiKeo
September 20th, 2011, 04:43 PM
Yeah and then you spent most of the 20th century destabilizing governments and installing puppet-leaders. :P

Freedom for everyone, indeed.

FFFFFFFFRRRRRRRRREEEEEEEEEDDDDDDDDDDDOOOOOOOOOMMMM MMMMMMM

deadfish
September 20th, 2011, 04:58 PM
Food, I kinda wonder if the World Pact mechanism and the "push on the back" that Alaya gives are actually the same thing.

Lianru
September 20th, 2011, 05:01 PM
Food, I kinda wonder if the World Pact mechanism and the "push on the back" that Alaya gives are actually the same thing.
Maybe Alaya possesses only the people that have a wish to be fulfilled, and the people that have a wish and aren't possessed are instead approached by the World and blah?
Ah, screw it. I haven't been following this conversation, this was probably mentioned before. I give up.

food
September 20th, 2011, 05:02 PM
I think I mused about it in this thread a bit earlier.

What Archer has gone through sounds exactly like the normal mechanism that Alaya carries out, except in his case it was ambiguous whether the event was leading to "Extinction of Mankind".

It could be that Alaya always work through the same mechanism, but it will only act if there is a threat of extinction.

If there is no threat, and you ask for Alaya's action, you must pay (i.e. through the World Pact).

Tobias
September 20th, 2011, 05:04 PM
well, judging from a fuyuki quote, you always end up in the world pact anyways if alaya gets involved any hero would. in archer's case, it sounds more like he dialed up the world and said, eh, why not let me take this one and you get a new CG, whats the harm?

deadfish
September 20th, 2011, 05:09 PM
But food, it's said that the person that gets backed up (in the rakkyo dictionary and back before we heard anything about pacts) is incorporated in the Counter Force somehow. That sounds alot like what Archer got.

food
September 20th, 2011, 05:11 PM
Also, Sabre signed the World Pact as well.

Hell, in her case, it was certainly not "a pushed in the back".

World Pact is more "bargain with the World" than the "backup" described in the Counter Force entry from KnK.


But food, it's said that the person that gets backed up (in the rakkyo dictionary and back before we heard anything about pacts) is incorporated in the Counter Force somehow. That sounds alot like what Archer got.

I remember there's a tag on that statement of "unknown if this is the truth".

deadfish
September 20th, 2011, 05:12 PM
Or is it?
I think it's just the world conning you into thinking that only you can do it.

food
September 20th, 2011, 05:15 PM
If you are saying "it's always the World who initiates the Contract", then why does the World offer it to Sabre?

There was no "Events that lead to Extinction" during Sabre's final battle. There was no need to "augment" Sabre (or interfere at all).

deadfish
September 20th, 2011, 05:15 PM
Same could be said about France and England lol.

food
September 20th, 2011, 05:17 PM
Ya, except Sabre asked for the Contract. So did Archer.

There is no evidence Joan asked for a Contract, and the entry was describing how the Counter Force can take the initiative (to remove factors leading to extinction), in that entry.

deadfish
September 20th, 2011, 05:19 PM
Saber and Archer asking for a contract doesn't mean they initiated the dialogue.

I3uster
September 20th, 2011, 05:19 PM
And Ryougi didn't ask either, right?

food
September 20th, 2011, 05:20 PM
I need to check Sabre, but Archer was the one initiated the Contract.


And Ryougi didn't ask either, right?

Why would she? She owns the Spiral of Origin.

deadfish
September 20th, 2011, 05:22 PM
You're sure about that? Because I don't see sufficient evidence for Archer actually initiating the dialogue from it. It just has him saying, okay, let's do this contract thing dude.

Lianru
September 20th, 2011, 05:24 PM
All it said (IIRC) was that he willingly did it.
So the World could have been all like "hey dude, you have a wish, right? Become a CG."
Right?

food
September 20th, 2011, 05:24 PM
It is a scene of some natural disaster, not the result of human conflict.

"Let me make a contract. I shall give you my life after my death. I would like the compensation now."

He weaves the words of contract.
After that, he changed as though possessed by something and saved people who could not normally be saved.
…Oh, so this must be how he became a "heroic spirit".

See?

There is absolutely no reason for Alaya to move, at all.

And you can see Archer asking for the Contract.

terraablaze
September 20th, 2011, 05:26 PM
English translation no good food, you need to slam down some moonrunes or GTFO.

deadfish
September 20th, 2011, 05:29 PM
It is a scene of some natural disaster, not the result of human conflict.

I don't really remember this being said in the original. Anyone have the actual text?

food
September 20th, 2011, 05:29 PM
Why would Alaya move?

1. It is a natural disaster.

2. There are only a few hundred people.

Alaya does not react to Gaian disasters, and Alaya reacts to threat of extinction scale rather than a pocket of a few hundred people.


I don't really remember this being said in the original. Anyone have the actual text?

You need to summon Mcjon or Hyrion.

terraablaze
September 20th, 2011, 05:31 PM
And he is asking for the original text food, go get it son.

Edit: ^
never mind, you actually bothered to read the last post on the previous page.

food
September 20th, 2011, 05:32 PM
Since when do I take command from BL?

I am oppressed enough in the lab, on the Internet, I am the boss.

deadfish
September 20th, 2011, 05:33 PM
2. There are only a few hundred people.
Alaya does not react to Gaian disasters, and Alaya reacts to threat of extinction scale rather than a pocket of a few hundred people.
So, how does England taking over France cause the extinction of humanity?


You need to summon Mcjon or Hyrion.

MCJON, I summon thee.

terraablaze
September 20th, 2011, 05:34 PM
@food
http://www.creativeuncut.com/gallery-02/art/mgs-big-boss.jpg

???

Cruor
September 20th, 2011, 05:35 PM
Why would Alaya move?

1. It is a natural disaster.

2. There are only a few hundred people.

Alaya does not react to Gaian disasters, and Alaya reacts to threat of extinction scale rather than a pocket of a few hundred people.

Eh, technically Elementals (which includes TA's) are counted as apart of Gaia (extension of the planet blah blah blah) so I don't think that's it entirely. Alaya probably didn't see that disaster as something that would harm the future of the race.

food
September 20th, 2011, 05:35 PM
So, how does England taking over France cause the extinction of humanity?

Stuff cascades, or Alaya was trying to stop someone from reaching the Origin.

Nothing is as it seems on the surface, we already gotten a taste of it from KnK.

deadfish
September 20th, 2011, 05:36 PM
So, same thing could be said for that incident Archer was involved in. We don't have the full story.

Cruor
September 20th, 2011, 05:37 PM
So, how does England taking over France cause the extinction of humanity?



MCJON, I summon thee.
Obviously a Frenchmen poisoned Ghengis Khan who woulda wiped out Europe if he never was poisoned.

Satehi
September 20th, 2011, 05:38 PM
Obviously a Frenchmen poisoned Ghengis Khan who woulda wiped out Europe if he never was poisoned.

TIMETRAVEL

food
September 20th, 2011, 05:38 PM
So, same thing could be said for that incident Archer was involved in. We don't have the full story.

Well, except we don't have evidence that a World Pact was involved in Joan's case.

Your argument is building on Joan ran through an identical a process to Archer and Sabre, while the entry is simply stating it as a case of World choosing to backup Joan.

deadfish
September 20th, 2011, 05:42 PM
The problem is we have this.

We have heroes that did things by their own merits.
We have heroes that didn't do things by their own merits, because the world made them heroes by the backing up process, but they didn't actually make a pact, they just got help.
Then we have heroes that didn't do things by their own merits, because the world made them heroes by the backing up process that came with the world pact deal.

That's just messy.

The Rakkyo entry in the Rakkyo only glossary (not the one from Jonnovi) for that only took account what was described directly in Rakkyo, but then it also mentioned something like "to see more info on what is meant by this, look at Fate".

That sounds alot to me that it's saying these things are exclusive.

Lianru
September 20th, 2011, 05:46 PM
Uh, I'm not mcjon, but:
おそらくは何かの事故現場で、争いによる惨状じゃない。契約しよう。我が死後を預ける。その報酬を、ここ に貰い受けたい
 契約の言葉を紡ぐ。
 その後、そいつは何かに憑かれたように様変わりして、本来救える筈のない人々を助け出してい た。
 ああ。ようするにコレが、そいつが『英霊』になった事件なワケだ。

food
September 20th, 2011, 05:46 PM
That's just messy.
That's what we can extract from the text without further clarification from Nasu.

"Making things clean" is not exactly the messenger boy's role.

deadfish
September 20th, 2011, 05:49 PM
Alright, so it's probably some sort of accident, and not a disaster from conflict huh.

food
September 20th, 2011, 05:50 PM
Alright, so it's probably some sort of accident, and not a disaster from conflict huh.

So ya, it's not a scenario that Alaya should move out (also given how few people were saved).


@Lianru,

Thanks for the digging effort.

deadfish
September 20th, 2011, 06:05 PM
I still don't see how helping out a little French girl against the English is any different than what happened with Archer, but okay.

food
September 20th, 2011, 06:09 PM
Let's see what Apocypha says....

I remember there was something about Joan in the Q&A...

Strife ❤️
September 20th, 2011, 07:11 PM
Counter Guardians helping France fight England in the hundred years war sounds ridiculous.

mewarmo990
September 20th, 2011, 07:12 PM
TIMETRAVEL
In that case, wouldn't Alaya just send someone or backup people to assassinate scientists/timetravelers to stop that from ever becoming a reality?

http://www.viruscomix.com/obersalzberg.jpg

Counterguardian
September 20th, 2011, 07:55 PM
More likely Alaya will try to prevent the mechanism of time travel from being discovered in the first place (read: reaching the Root/True Magic).

Tangerang
September 20th, 2011, 08:03 PM
But once it's been discovered, it doesn't care anymore.

Just like the Association?

food
September 20th, 2011, 08:06 PM
In KnK, there was this part where Touko talks about how those who reached Akasha passed to the beyond, leaving only traces in this World.

It's probably not entirely true, but it's probably not entire false.

After you reach Akasha, you probably ascend to an existence beyond the control of Counter Force.

Counterguardian
September 20th, 2011, 08:06 PM
I get the feeling that if someone does discover a True Magic, it means that Alaya knows the guy is definitely not a threat to humanity at all (such as Zelretch).

food
September 20th, 2011, 08:09 PM
I get the feeling that if someone does discover a True Magic, it means that Alaya knows the guy is definitely not a threat to humanity at all (such as Zelretch).

So you are saying those who do slip through the Counter Force are not "super good at avoiding Counter Force", but are really "Counter Force Approved"?

Well, I guess that's another way to look at it.

Five_X
September 20th, 2011, 08:53 PM
I like to imagine the Counter Force as sort of like a more badass version of the Rescue Rangers.

TypeWannabe
September 20th, 2011, 08:57 PM
Since when do I take command from BL?

I am oppressed enough in the lab, on the Internet, I am the boss.

Oh God I'm fapping so hard right now. I can only hope to be as badass as you japanese speaking people.

food
September 20th, 2011, 09:06 PM
Haha, if only the professors in the faculty give a shit about me reading Moon Runes as much as you do.

ratstsrub
September 20th, 2011, 09:13 PM
Already the first page is outdated.

What was the point of this thread again.

food
September 20th, 2011, 09:14 PM
Questions Thread #2

TypeWannabe
September 20th, 2011, 09:21 PM
It's hardly anybody but LeopardBear's fault. Because he, you know, made the thread.

ratstsrub
September 20th, 2011, 09:23 PM
My point is made.

food
September 20th, 2011, 09:24 PM
The thread's fine, I think ratstsrub is just fuming because this is still on the front page, lol.


Do Servants get stronger then when they were in life.
Servants/CGs like Archer!Emiya did. But most Servants like Saber and Lancer actually became weaker.

SeiKeo
September 20th, 2011, 09:25 PM
Has now been taken off. Hey, I don't follow the arguments closely enough to tell when there's a decision.

ratstsrub
September 20th, 2011, 11:08 PM
??

I just find that this thread is just a GQ#2, especially since there's been a bunch of direct quotes/citations that still haven't been added.

SeiKeo
September 20th, 2011, 11:11 PM
Eh, mind pointing them out? Like I said, I'm not following this that closely, just kind of been looking for someone to say okay, this is put to rest.

Tobias
September 20th, 2011, 11:15 PM
The thread's fine, I think ratstsrub is just fuming because this is still on the front page, lol.

Is that a bad thing? I thought everyone knew that? Well, cept maybe eddy.

ratstsrub
September 20th, 2011, 11:20 PM
http://forums.nrvnqsr.com/showthread.php/1034-General-Facts-About-Controversial-Topics?p=339473&viewfull=1#post339473
http://forums.nrvnqsr.com/showthread.php/1034-General-Facts-About-Controversial-Topics?p=339235&viewfull=1#post339235


Is that a bad thing? I thought everyone knew that? Well, cept maybe eddy.

Everybody knew what?

SeiKeo
September 20th, 2011, 11:20 PM
Okay, thanks.

Tangerang
September 20th, 2011, 11:23 PM
The thread's fine, I think ratstsrub is just fuming because this is still on the front page, lol.

Here's a question. Assuming the world pact did buff Archer to CG level, and assuming he didn't randomly die afterwards, how does Servant Archer stack to living CG Archer?

food
September 20th, 2011, 11:32 PM
Here's a question. Assuming the world pact did buff Archer to CG level, and assuming he didn't randomly die afterwards, how does Servant Archer stack to living CG Archer?

It's complicated and we don't know enough.

Normally, the "backup" will last until the threat to humanity is removed. So basically, you are still getting Alaya's lovin' and power up until the deed is done. (Don't know about afterward, but during the process you are still superman.)

For Archer, it is unclear if World Pact is different from normal Alaya backup. If it is just "my servitude for just this one favour/miracle", then Archer just loses the Alaya buff afterward, and Servant Archer is just normal EMIYA.

Too many unknowns.

Tangerang
September 20th, 2011, 11:33 PM
Well, let's just take the assumption that he has the CG buff on for this hypothetical question.

ratstsrub
September 20th, 2011, 11:36 PM
Oh I guess these should be added:

God Hand is B inclusive.


...Yes. It is difficult to say, but I believe any attack that is below A rank will be nullified, whether normal attack or Noble Phantasm.

(Fate 5th Day, Return Home - Evening - Question for Saber)

Noble Phantasms can be the items themselves and not just the activation.


Yes, Noble Phantasms are similar to magic.
For example, Lancer's lance itself is a Noble Phantasm, but it demonstrates its full potential only when he puts magical energy into it and says its true name.

(UBW Talk With Saber After Intro to UBW)


Why these?

Past arguments have had proponents of one or the other. Even the simple one like God Hand...the latter had an especially passionate proponent who I think have disappeared now. Or I forgot his name.




Assuming living had CG buff.

Servant is weaker generally.

Just forget Archer and apply it to somebody like Jeanne.

food
September 20th, 2011, 11:44 PM
Well, let's just take the assumption that he has the CG buff on for this hypothetical question.

There is no specific amount of power that the Counter Force gives to an individual.

We know Alaya always apply enough force to finish the task, plus a little more for safe measure (yes, you read it right, Alaya works similar to Gaia).

Alaya might have just give Archer enough power to rescue those few hundred people.

It's just so very vague and hard to quantify.

ratstsrub
September 20th, 2011, 11:54 PM
...Stop viewing it like that and view the question like this:

Does Archer gain power (in general) after he dies?

The answer should be relatively clear. It doesn't matter exactly the amount of buff he might or might not have in life. This is more a relative question than an exact.

Counterguardian
September 21st, 2011, 12:17 AM
Do we know if the Grail is capable of buffing Servants? From memory we've only seen cases of downgrading power, which may be a Wallachia-like case of "not being able to fully manifest the Heroic Spirit", instead of "I can crank your powerlevel up and down as I please".

So this in mind, if the Grail can't nerf then it follows that the EMIYA summoned must be at his normal state in the Throne. Given that the epitome of humans can only achieve a D rank in stats tops, the fact that Archer has C-ranks and more means that his Counter Guardian boost is his Servant baseline. Because there's no way in hell that EMIYA can train his stats to Kouma-like levels.

Five_X
September 21st, 2011, 12:21 AM
Humans can't even achieve E rank, actually.

"Even E rank is beyond the pinnacle of human achievement" or something to that effect, as it was said. In regards to stats, that is.

food
September 21st, 2011, 12:25 AM
If you think about it, saying "Servants are weaker than when they were alive" is not entirely correct.

I am looking at Joan right now, so she's the only example I have. La Pucelle is the manifestation of Joan's sacrifice, so she would have never had such a powerful mystery when she was alive.

Essentially Joan got more powerful after she became a Heroic Spirit (and as a Servant).

Also, there's that old example I had, Knight Class gets Magic Resistance by default, even when the Heroic Spirit has 0 magic resistance.

ratstsrub
September 21st, 2011, 12:40 AM
Man, I knew exactly what sort of thing food was gonna say right when I wrote all those things.

Sigh...

That is why I wrote power and generally.

If food wants to concern himself with those specific gains, then he should mention the very best example, that of physical needs being replaced with a single and simple energy source: prana.

Which is of particular use in battle, since a Servant could sacrifice a severe but non-fatal wound without too much worries if it ensures victory.

I.e. they don't worry about bleeding to death, and the only essential organs are the heart and the brain.

In fact, speaking strictly in terms of human level Servants (if those exist), this advantage might outweigh any disadvantages.



Hence why Servants are weaker than their living counterpart is a general trend, about a general reduction in parameters and strength/power of the person and not things external to the person: crystallization of their legends, for example.


If a question asks: Are Servants stronger than when they were in life, and you want an accurate answer, then it would be:

It depends on the Servant.

Which is completely correct and also utterly worthless.

And it is worthless because there is a trend. There might be exceptions to that trend, but those are exceptions.

food
September 21st, 2011, 12:54 AM
If there is a correct answer, why bust a spleen trying to peddle a less correct answer?

If you think about it, Alexander the Great is another good example. He somehow landed himself Divinity with legend alone, and gotten himself a very powerful reality marble even though he is no magus.

He led an army in real life, but he now carries an Elemental level sorcery everywhere that a magus would want to sell his family for.

EDIT:

Also, Avalon might have gotten more powerful after Sabre died (made the contract). The barrier aspect represents "the King returning to the Faerieland" aspect of Sabre's legend. (OK, confirmed this, it is a manifestation of Arltria's resting place, so Avalon definitely have gotten more powerful than when Sabre was alive)

Tangerang
September 21st, 2011, 12:59 AM
Just on the subject of Alexander.

On the other hand, while he was alive, couldn't you say that his army was like, right there so he didn't need a way to summon them? And since they were alive, he didn't need to use prana, and they wouldn't have disappeared if something disrupted their surroundings like a RM or something.

*but lets talk pure stats here. How do they comparez

Counterguardian
September 21st, 2011, 01:05 AM
Calling back to Nasu's fine tradition of ranking everything compared to Arcueid, I'm going to say a Servant is "weaker" than in life because Arc gets less backup against a Servant compared to the same entity as an Heroic Spirit.

ratstsrub
September 21st, 2011, 01:07 AM
If there is a correct answer, why bust a spleen trying to peddle a less correct answer?

If you think about it, Alexander the Great is another good example. He somehow landed himself Divinity with legend alone, and gotten himself a very powerful reality marble even though he is no magus.

He led an army in real life, but he now carries an Elemental level sorcery everywhere that a magus would want to sell his family for.

EDIT:

Also, Avalon might have gotten more powerful after Sabre died (made the contract). The barrier aspect represents "the King returning to the Faerieland" aspect of Sabre's legend. (OK, confirmed this, it is a manifestation of Arltria's resting place, so Avalon definitely have gotten more powerful than when Sabre was alive)


Which is completely correct and also utterly worthless.

Did you like completely skip a part or something, or were you unable to understand anything written up there other than the words correct answer and is?



And those examples, again, are worthless. It's like you think if one says, Servants are generally weaker than when they were in life (a position the game fucking takes), that means any and all situations must and absolutely needs be, there can be none stronger. (And if you don't think that, then you should be able to realize that the examples you give are frivolous and unneeded.)

Which, again, the game fucking refutes, Black Saber.



*On the subject of Alexander

Someone did state what food said for them before (mike probably did at one point too), and that was one of the more obvious response.

Well, sure, it became a Reality Marble and blah blah blah, but dude, when he was alive, he didn't even need to cast a spell to have his army. They were fucking there.

food
September 21st, 2011, 01:07 AM
Lol, I don't think Nasu ever pitted Arc against a Heroic Spirit, it's always been Servants.

deadfish
September 21st, 2011, 01:08 AM
Heroic Spirit being stronger than a Servant is pretty definite. Game says that.

Problem is hero in life being stronger than a Servant. And we can't really say much about that for sure, other than some text in Black Saber's description saying that Saber under Shirou couldn't fully demonstrate the ability she had when she was alive.

Counterguardian
September 21st, 2011, 01:08 AM
Whoa, rats still rages in arguments.

I'm going to need a while to ease back into this again.

ratstsrub
September 21st, 2011, 01:11 AM
And we can't really say much about that for sure, other than some text in Black Saber's description saying that Saber under Shirou couldn't fully demonstrate the ability she had when she was alive.

And bridge scene.

And Rin vs Kiritsugu vs Sakura.

They all add up.


Whoa, rats still rages in arguments.

I don't have a lot of patience for people who either deliberately misconstrue posts or are too dense or lazy or whatever to read posts.

food
September 21st, 2011, 01:12 AM
What about Avalon?

Altria did not have that godly barrier effect when she was alive. You can't say living Altria is stronger than Servant Sabre, because living Altria is missing the most br0ken effect.

deadfish
September 21st, 2011, 01:13 AM
What the...

I'm not saying that. The game is saying that.


And Rin vs Kiritsugu vs Sakura.
Hm?

ratstsrub
September 21st, 2011, 01:14 AM
Read food's post:


I don't have a lot of patience for people who either deliberately misconstrue posts or are too dense or lazy or whatever to read posts.

I rest my point.



And Rin vs Kiritsugu vs Sakura.

Sabers under Rin under Kiritsugu under Sakura. Not definitive but adds the progressive increase in stat as more prana is fed. Which leads to bridge scene where maxed out.