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Prince Charon
September 14th, 2011, 10:27 AM
Imagine a Shirou who was healed without Avalon, and whose Origin is Fire, which is most likely his element, as well. He still develops a Reality Marble, but it looks like an eternal conflagration. The Great Fire of Fuyuki still burns in his soul

He was saved from the Great Fire by a minor magus, a mere formalcraft (http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_Magic_Spells#Formalcraft) user with less than twenty magic circuits. The one who saved him nearly exhausted himself keeping the boy alive long enough to reach a hospital, but it was enough. Shirou was saved, and the person who saved him, adopted him.

I've been considering the idea that the person who saved him might have been a relative of Sajyou Ayaka (http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Sajyou_Ayaka), perhaps her father, and did not so much formally adopt him as become his guardian, with the hope of arranging a marriage to her. That requires knowing that Shirou has more magic circuits than one would expect, though. If the magus does find out, there's still an issue he hadn't considered: Shirou thinks of Ayaka as his sister, not a potential wife. Maybe they should have explained things when he was brought home.

Was also thinking that the magus, whether a Sajyou or not, was an employee of the Fujimura clan. A man who joined the yakuza to help his community, and sees it as a true chivalrous organization, not the group of violent thugs many outsiders and police consider it to be. Of course, Raiga certainly encourages that belief. This Shirou could still wish to be a Champion of Justice, but would have a different (though clearer) idea of how to go about it.

Shirou's training in formalcrft goes well enough, but he lacks canon-Shirou's talent for Projection, and thus, has to use real things as sacrifices, rather than Tracing them. His true talent lies in Fire, both its its destructive and creative aspects, and while he can use formalcraft to convert it to other elements when he has time, any magic used in a hurry (like, say, combat), without a Mystic Code or Conceptual Weapon, is going to be Fire-based. I'm not sure how good formalcraft is at creating Mystic Codes, as the wiki doesn't say, but as Shirou is capable of using Fire's creative aspect, he should be able to forge Mystic Codes, but would have difficulty crafting any that did not involve Fire in their creation. Conceptual Weapons are probably right out, though he might have a small chance of obtaining one through other means.

I do not have an Aria for his Reality Marble, though I do have a possible name for it: Birth of the Phoenix.

One may wonder what happened to Emiya Kiritsugu, that he was not there to save Shirou. Perhaps he found someone else to save, but that involves either creating a new character, or changing the story of an existing one.

One possible point of divergence for this is that Tohsaka Sakura was not given to the Matou family, but to another. Let's say, a childless couple who use crystal magic, something similar enough to gem magic for Sakura to perform more easily than the Matou style. This Sakura, while still a very nice girl, has a much better sense of self-esteem, and occasionally shows an impish sense of humour, such as teasing Rin about Shirou by calling her 'Tsundere-neechan'. She may or may not even live in Fuyuki, or be interested in Shirou beyond 'nice, handsome guy', and might not be chosen as a Master. Perhaps the couple is more eccentic (from a magus's perspective), and Sakura is developing technomagic. (Weird idea: Babylon 5 came out before the Fourth Holy Grail War, so Sakura could be a Technomage fangirl, with a stylke to match.)

Another idea is that the couple or person she was given to was killed in the Great Fire, and Kiritsugu saved her, thus explaining why he didn't find Shirou, since her was busy saving Sakura. Not sure how plausible either option is.

Either of the above would mean that Matou Kariya had no reason to enter the Fourth Heaven's Feel, which would change that War severely. Tokiomi might not even be dead, and Aoi might be sane. Also, someone else would have summoned Berserker, and would most likely have gotten a different Berserker, at that, which means the Great Fire might not have happened, at all. So, perhaps 'Sakura goes to a family other than the Matous' should have its own TL, where first the alternate Fourth Holy Grail War is played out, then the interbellum decade, and only then the Fifth. Moving on:

Perhaps Kiritsugu found no-one to save, in which case his future might go along the lines depicted in Tainted Ideals (http://www.fanfiction.net/s/7331568/1/Tainted_Ideals), which I probly shouldn't spoil by explaining. There are two possibilities: either he makes it there alive, or he doesn't, and that's going to strongly affect how Saber's Master behaves.

Its also quite possible that he dies in the fire, and Avalon is either lost, or found by someone else, who will most likely be Saber Arturia's Master in the Fifth Heaven's Feel. Having that person be Shirou is out, as that strains SoD too far. Rin, perhaps? Maybe she found it during the time before the Fifth, or maybe Kotomine found it, and thought it would be amusing to give it to her. Maybe Ayaka or Sakura has it, and angsts over having to fight Shirou and/or Rin. Maybe Mitsuzuri Ayako has it, and is even less prepared for Saber's arrival than canon Shirou was. Maybe its hanging in the Ryuudouji Temple, and Caster uses it to summon Saber.

Maybe it stays lost until the War begins, or isn't in the story at all, so the Saber of the Fifth War is not Arturia.

I tried to come up with a good Servant for this Shirou, and my mind wandered to Azula (http://avatar.wikia.com/wiki/Azula), and from there, to this odd idea: Avatar: the Last Airbender, the cartoon, is in this version of the Nasuverse, a distorted account of events that took place in pre-Imperial China, Korea, and Japan, during the Age of Gods (http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Age_of_Gods). Caster (or Berserker) Azula is pretty much the person she was in canon (maybe more sane, maybe less), and might have the ability to summon other spirits attached to her Legend - or not, considering that they abandoned her at the end. Depends on how close the end of the series is to what 'really' happened in the Nasuverse, and whether they got close to her again, after. Using Azula saves the trouble of creating an entirely new character, but if there's a canon Nasuverse character that would fit, the author is certainly free to use them.

EDIT: You may want to ignore most of the first four pages of this thread. Sorry.

Mike1984
September 14th, 2011, 10:32 AM
Well, if you're having Sakura remain as in canon, then her finding Avalon might be an interesting change, since the healing ability it provides might allow her to free herself from Zouken, or at least allow her to be freed more easily.

Also, Shirou summoning someone who is (IIRC) a villain seems rather unlikely, TBH.

SeiKeo
September 14th, 2011, 10:36 AM
Maybe Mitsuzuri Ayako has it, and is even less prepared for Saber's arrival than canon Shirou was.

My word, fund it.

burningclaw2
September 14th, 2011, 10:56 AM
Lina inverse is pretty good with fire spells. If Shirou ends up with a phoenix familiar I will laugh.

Neir
September 14th, 2011, 12:51 PM
WITCH CRAFT WORKS.

lethum
September 14th, 2011, 01:47 PM
So, Shirou dies in a fire, but comes back to life...in the fire! His life now begins and ends in fire, death, destruction, birth, creation and rebirth. Phoenix Force? Or a convenient Nasu-verse equivalent?

burningclaw2
September 14th, 2011, 01:55 PM
Shirou is an incarnation of fire it cannot kill him.

Ergast
September 14th, 2011, 02:05 PM
It's an interesting idea. About Azula, I have to say that I don't have the foggiest idea about Avatar, so I can't say anything, but she doesn't seem to match Shirou's personality, unless this Shirou is way too different from his canon version.

@Mike Avalon could hardly helps Sakura there. If only because Zouken doesn't have anything to do with her in this setting. That aside, I would be right with her having Avalon. Or Rin. But Rin has to summon EMIYA, if only to fuck with him, as this time he wouldn't be able to go for the paradox. And what the hell, he isn't exactly my favorite character, but when he isn't being an asshole, he is a nice character to have around.

@TheSpy Spellcasters in manga/anime tends to be overkill, and Lina Inverse is one of the most broken magic users. I'll dare to say she is almost at the level or at the level of Dark Snider.

Mike1984
September 14th, 2011, 02:09 PM
@Mike Avalon could hardly helps Sakura there. If only because Zouken doesn't have anything to do with her in this setting. That aside, I would be right with her having Avalon. Or Rin. But Rin has to summon EMIYA, if only to fuck with him, as this time he wouldn't be able to go for the paradox. And what the hell, he isn't exactly my favorite character, but when he isn't being an asshole, he is a nice character to have around.

If Sakura had had Avalon in HF, removing the worm in her heart would have been much easier.

Neir
September 14th, 2011, 02:11 PM
No, we discussed this. Avalon does not have ivermectin.

Mike1984
September 14th, 2011, 02:13 PM
No, we discussed this. Avalon does not have ivermectin.

Avalon when you have a contract with Saber allows the healing of virtually any wound, which would surely include the removal of Zouken's worm from Sakura's heart.

SeiKeo
September 14th, 2011, 02:13 PM
Avalon when you have a contract with Saber allows the healing of virtually any wound, which would surely include the removal of Zouken's worm from Sakura's heart.

Whether Zouken's worm is a wound is debatable.

Neir
September 14th, 2011, 02:14 PM
Surely it would. If you make ungrounded assumptions.

It's been there long enough that Avalon would just restore it anyway, even if your handwavium worked.

Mike1984
September 14th, 2011, 02:15 PM
Whether Zouken's worm is a wound is debatable.

It's not, but it is stated by Kotomine that it can be removed, but doing so would kill her. Ergo, if you give her Avalon, it could likely be removed without killing her.


It's been there long enough that Avalon would just restore it anyway, even if your handwavium worked.

Erm, what?

Why would that happen? It's not part of Sakura, it's a foreign body that is inside her (hence why it is controlled by Zouken).

Neir
September 14th, 2011, 02:18 PM
It's been part of her for 11 years. LONGER THAN AVALON HAS BEEN IN SHIROU.

But go on. Continue your groundless statements.

Mike1984
September 14th, 2011, 02:24 PM
It's been part of her for 11 years. LONGER THAN AVALON HAS BEEN IN SHIROU.

And?

Avalon heals the body, it doesn't revert it back to its former state. However long the worm has been in Sakura, it is still a foreign object and, thus, there is no reason why Avalon should be expected to recreate it, and indeed it would be stupid if it even could.

Neir
September 14th, 2011, 02:28 PM
even if she made a contract and had avalon inside her long enough for it to work on her body (ie 10 years), it would only heal her back to the point she was at when it was in there (ie still wormed).

Also, it's a stupid idea.

shiningphoenix
September 14th, 2011, 02:30 PM
even if she made a contract and had avalon inside her long enough for it to work on her body (ie 10 years), it would only heal her back to the point she was at when it was in there (ie still wormed).
Bullshit! If that were the case it couldn't have healed Shirou from the fire!

Neir
September 14th, 2011, 02:30 PM
I believe it only stopped him from getting WORSE while natural healing and medicine did the real work. Besides, without Saber around, it doesn't do nearly as much.

Edit: Regarding sickness, yes. Which is why I said it doesn't do nearly as much. Again, more preventative than restorative without Saber.

Altima of the Gates
September 14th, 2011, 02:32 PM
even if she made a contract and had avalon inside her long enough for it to work on her body (ie 10 years), it would only heal her back to the point she was at when it was in there (ie still wormed).

Also, it's a stupid idea.

If that was the case, her ripping it out in HF wouldn't have worked, and would have created another soul jar in it's place.
Hell, she was ripped apart by Gil, her regen would then mean that every worm would have been restored, as, in your theory, the body
would remember them being there.

Just wut.


I believe it only stopped him from getting WORSE while natural healing and medicine did the real work. Besides, without Saber around, it doesn't do nearly as much.

He also said he never actually had illness in his life, so it's possible it stays minor pathogens.

Neir
September 14th, 2011, 02:33 PM
She wasn't using Avalon, was she?

That's right. She wasn't.

Tobias
September 14th, 2011, 02:37 PM
even if she made a contract and had avalon inside her long enough for it to work on her body (ie 10 years), it would only heal her back to the point she was at when it was in there (ie still wormed).

Also, it's a stupid idea.

http://i.cr3ation.co.uk/dl/s1/jpg/63733d1164785768usbabymurderedmicrowavemorbo1.jpg

AVALON DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY



what the hell....?

when shirou had avalon put in him he was burned to a crisp, is avalon going to put him back like that?

Neir
September 14th, 2011, 02:37 PM
Keep him from getting worse, sure. He wasn't dead at the time, was he?

But like I said, that's just how I think it worked.

Tobias
September 14th, 2011, 02:42 PM
err, keeping from getting worse would be EXACTLY WHAT PURPLE HEAD WOULD NEED.

getting the worms out is not the problem, its that getting the worms out is lethal. if getting the worms out is not lethal, you have just solved the problem.


would avalon like, magically take the worms out? I highly doubt it, but if avalon will, to use your own phrasing, keep her from getting worse done the process, you have now fixed the whole worm issue.






avalon restoring you to the state you were in when you first got it indeed........

Neir
September 14th, 2011, 02:44 PM
HANDWAVIUM, GO.

>Implying we actually know how avalon works.

Tobias
September 14th, 2011, 02:48 PM
>implying we dont know enough about Avalon to say with absolute, utter certainty that it doesn't just restore you to the state of health you were in when you acquired it.

>implying we don't know that so perfectly it isnt permissible, nay, demanded we laugh at someone who makes at such an absurd claim.

>implications abound!

Neir
September 14th, 2011, 02:49 PM
>implying we do

>implying this is a worthwhile argument

Tobias
September 14th, 2011, 02:50 PM
>implying we do


I am not implying anything. we absolutely do to have 100% proof of just that.

Neir
September 14th, 2011, 02:51 PM
Eh, okay then.

I don't mind being wrong.

burningclaw2
September 14th, 2011, 02:54 PM
This match has ended in a draw. Next derailers please.

Mike1984
September 14th, 2011, 02:55 PM
even if she made a contract and had avalon inside her long enough for it to work on her body (ie 10 years), it would only heal her back to the point she was at when it was in there (ie still wormed).

Erm, what?

Again, the worm is not part of Sakura's body. Therefore, Avalon would not have any reason to put it back. Also, Avalon does not need to be inside you for any period of time to work, you just need a connection to Saber.

Seriously, you're being ridiculous here. I mean, I know you don't like Sakura, but I didn't know you hated her enough that you would rather believe that Saber's Noble Phantasm is more limited than usually thought rather than that there is a way to save Sakura (without her turning Dark) after all....


I believe it only stopped him from getting WORSE while natural healing and medicine did the real work. Besides, without Saber around, it doesn't do nearly as much.

It stopped him dying, which was inevitable without Avalon. And, even if that's all it can do for Sakura, that would be sufficient. She can get medical help (or, even, just heal herself) later.


Edit: Regarding sickness, yes. Which is why I said it doesn't do nearly as much. Again, more preventative than restorative without Saber.

But Saber would be "around", hence her being Sakura's servant....


She wasn't using Avalon, was she?

That's right. She wasn't.

No, but she was using some form of "regeneration". So, if Avalon regenerates things like that, then why should Sakura's magic be any different?


err, keeping from getting worse would be EXACTLY WHAT PURPLE HEAD WOULD NEED.

getting the worms out is not the problem, its that getting the worms out is lethal. if getting the worms out is not lethal, you have just solved the problem.

Exactly.


would avalon like, magically take the worms out? I highly doubt it, but if avalon will, to use your own phrasing, keep her from getting worse done the process, you have now fixed the whole worm issue.

Yeah, exactly.

I would say that it is just about plausible that Avalon would remove the worms outright, or at least disrupt them (but unlikely), but that it is very likely that it could heal any wounds caused by their removal.

Tobias
September 14th, 2011, 02:56 PM
thanks for the wall mike, but I think we are just about done here, no need to rub it in

Neir
September 14th, 2011, 02:56 PM
I'm actually done with this whole debate, but this...


So, if Avalon regenerates things like that, then why should Sakura's magic be any different?

Because one is forged in the world of faeries and one is not? They're completely different? Why WOULD they be the same?

Mike1984
September 14th, 2011, 02:58 PM
Because one is forged in the world of faeries and one is not? They're completely different? Why WOULD they be the same?

There's no reason why they should be expected to be the same, but there's also no reason why they should be expected to be different, either.

Neir
September 14th, 2011, 03:00 PM
Except that they're completely different in origin? And even alignment?

Tobias
September 14th, 2011, 03:00 PM
....ok, I am about to prove I have no loyalties because I think I am about to throw in with neir on that part of it, could you run down and detail what it is you think sakura would be doing that was like avalon's power for me?

Mike1984
September 14th, 2011, 03:06 PM
....ok, I am about to prove I have no loyalties because I think I am about to throw in with neir on that part of it, could you run down and detail what it is you think sakura would be doing that was like avalon's power for me?

I didn't say they would, I'm just saying that the only logical reason to believe that what Neir is saying must be true is if all healing works that way (since we have seen no specific evidence that Avalon does), and Sakura proves that it doesn't.

Neir
September 14th, 2011, 03:07 PM
... Why would all healing work that way? As someone who has supposedly worked in a scientific field, you should know that you can't take a single data point and call it a pattern.

Tobias
September 14th, 2011, 03:08 PM
ah, well, anyway, now that we have that bit cleared up then, everyone good for actually discussing the fic again?



that sounds like fun.




... Why would all healing work that way? As someone who has supposedly worked in a scientific field, you should know that you can't take a single data point and call it a pattern.

unless you have a scientific curiosity about it, drop it. Avalon itself heals people even if they were injured before it was implanted, thats direct canon.

Altima of the Gates
September 14th, 2011, 03:12 PM
I didn't say they would, I'm just saying that the only logical reason to believe that what Neir is saying must be true is if all healing works that way (since we have seen no specific evidence that Avalon does), and Sakura proves that it doesn't.

Anyway, you can lower your guns bro, saying that healing works in different ways doesn't disprove what you want Avalon to do, and tobias has already given you the nod, so end it here, please. Anything further is just needless back and forth.

Mike1984
September 14th, 2011, 03:13 PM
... Why would all healing work that way? As someone who has supposedly worked in a scientific field, you should know that you can't take a single data point and call it a pattern.

Perhaps, but, whilst assuming a pattern based on one data point is bad, it's still better than assuming one based on no data points, which is what you were doing....

reborn214
September 14th, 2011, 03:15 PM
SO what do you think Ayaka's personality would be like? Very close to Rin except more shy then Tsun?

Tobias
September 14th, 2011, 03:17 PM
rin without the tsun?



whats that like, a genius who tries mightily ignore being so sexually frustrated she is probably two drinks and an aphrodisiac away from assaulting an appropriately shaped piece of furniture?

burningclaw2
September 14th, 2011, 03:26 PM
She only needs half a drink

Prince Charon
September 14th, 2011, 06:24 PM
Can we delete like, the first four pages of this thread, or should I ask for the whole thread to be deleted, and start a new one?

More seriously, no to Lina, to damn overpowered, but not nearly on the level of Dark Schnieder, who I'm also saying no to, for the same reason.

I picked Azula because I couldn't think of a character associated with Fire who would really fit, she's more interesting than her father, and depending on how she grew up after the events of the cartoon, Azula could have become a decent fit for him... or, maybe he has a catalyst. One thought that passed through my head is that his Reality Marble is the catalyst, but I'm not sure that would work.

I'm still open to other fire-associated characters, though.

Also, I'm not good at poetry right now, so I'm almost certainly not the one who will come up with an aria for Birth of the Phoenix (or whatever name works best - not 'Unlimited Fire Works', though, unless in an omake). Feel free to make suggestions.

burningclaw2
September 14th, 2011, 06:31 PM
Natsu Dragneel from Fairy Tail? He eats and uses fire

Neir
September 14th, 2011, 06:36 PM
I believe you can delete the thread yourself. Under Administrative Tools at the top of the thread.

shiningphoenix
September 14th, 2011, 06:53 PM
I'm still open to other fire-associated characters, though.
Kokutou Azaka of KnK.

reborn214
September 14th, 2011, 07:37 PM
Karna from Fate/Apocrypha his prana burst takes the form of fire and he uses the radiance of the sun as armor and weapons. Plus he comes from the only legend older then Gilgamesh the Mahabharata. It would be amusing the see Karna refute Gil's claims that he is the "original" hero

burningclaw2
September 14th, 2011, 07:51 PM
^I agree with the guy who shares a name with a midget hitman

Cubia - the - Anti-Existence
September 14th, 2011, 11:45 PM
Perhaps in addition to the ability to control heat he has some talent at healing magic do to the phoenix association.

Also according to wikipedia animals are considered fire objects in the japanese element system so perhaps he's good at using living animals as familiars.

Needless to say he'll still be very useful in the kitchen. More so then sword Shirou as he would be able to cook with out turning the oven on by simply manipulating the heat right. Hell cooking without the oven could be his insane training method.

Spinach
September 14th, 2011, 11:57 PM
I second the Karna suggestion, mostly because it was a really cool Servant idea, a cool hero, and just something I want to see.

Elf
September 15th, 2011, 12:14 AM
What about Prometheus, the guy who stole fire from the gods to give it to man?

reborn214
September 15th, 2011, 12:16 AM
Hmmm I think Prometheus would be more of a divine spirit or god than a heroic spirit; although if he was I'd imagine him being amazed at modern technology

Elf
September 15th, 2011, 12:25 AM
Hmmm I think Prometheus would be more of a divine spirit or god than a heroic spirit; although if he was I'd imagine him being amazed at modern technology

Or Shirou could be partnered with Lancer. Lugh was also a god of smithery.

burningclaw2
September 15th, 2011, 12:28 AM
This Shirou's origin and element is fire, not swords/weapon making.

Hymn of Ragnarok
September 15th, 2011, 12:35 AM
As awesome as a brofic between Shirou and Lancer would be, I'm really curious as to how Shirou and Karna would fight and interact. Yes, they would be enormously powerful, but the character interaction would be downright fascinating.

Especially since Karna sees through deceptions. If Karna ever becomes involved in conversation between EMIYA and Rin, he's going to need every overpowered Noble Phantasm at his disposal to survive. It'd be classic.

burningclaw2
September 15th, 2011, 12:50 AM
I think Karna only has to protect his head, his armor can stand A rank attacks I think.

Hymn of Ragnarok
September 15th, 2011, 01:01 AM
I think Karna only has to protect his head, his armor can stand A rank attacks I think.

While this is true, Archer has plenty of Noble Phantasms to break. And Karna's armor doesn't adapt like Berserker's God Hand.

burningclaw2
September 15th, 2011, 01:07 AM
I believe this is where the "Get the F*** Out of Dodge!" effect comes into play.

Spinach
September 15th, 2011, 01:10 AM
What Archer really has to watch out is for that anti-nation NP..

burningclaw2
September 15th, 2011, 01:13 AM
I believe Karna also comes with a homing NP

Hymn of Ragnarok
September 15th, 2011, 01:18 AM
I believe this is where the "Get the F*** Out of Dodge!" effect comes into play.

Fair enough. Archer is still exceptionally well equipped to successfully damage Karna.


What Archer really has to watch out is for that anti-nation NP..

I think it might depend on whether this is the first time Archer encounters Karna. That passive ability to make everyone underestimate Karna? That could mess Archer up if Karna doesn't play around, seeing as it's very difficult to predict how your foe will strike when you can't discern their full measure.

As for that homing NP...Archer does have Rho Aias. You do not get a better defense without have Gilgamesh level of protection or Avalon.

burningclaw2
September 15th, 2011, 01:22 AM
Smash Rho Aias with the anti-nation NP with the homing close by the impale Archer the second Rho Aias shatters

Hymn of Ragnarok
September 15th, 2011, 01:28 AM
Smash Rho Aias with the anti-nation NP with the homing close by the impale Archer the second Rho Aias shatters

Never said it was foolproof. Just that it was the best he would get. And Rho Aias is meant to defend against projectile weapons. That's a hefty advantage.

I question whether Karna is capable of using so many high level NPs so quickly, and whether he'd be willing to use them or that Shirou would let him use them on account of collateral damage. I suppose it's possible, but that would have to leave him drained. Even with all of his Magic Circuits open, Shirou is not Rin.

Prince Charon
September 15th, 2011, 03:20 AM
*looks up Karna*

Interesting. Not sure how well he fits, but may well be better than Azula. He doesn't pre-date Gilgamesh, though: its estimated that his legend (https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Mah%C4%81bh%C4%81rata) comes from between the very early Vedic period, as much as a thousand years after Gilgamesh, and the rise of the first Indian Empire in the 3rd century BCE.

I was thinking Shirou would have a female Servant, but its really up to the author, whomever that will be.

Any thoughts on the Aria?

nununu
September 15th, 2011, 03:37 AM
Why have an aria? Why not go with a reflex reaction to life-threatening danger? Or maybe an 'after receiving a fatal blow' trigger?

Ergast
September 15th, 2011, 04:00 AM
Because RM usually are a 10 lines spells if you want it to be completely manifested.

Also, I like Karna as his Servant. Like Saber, he is an overpowered Servant nerfed thanks to Shirou's lack of prana. And even if this Shirou has his circuits open, Karna wouldn't be at the same degree of power as Rin!Saber. Rin is just that powerful as a magus (now I'm wondering what stats would Archer have if he was Shirou's Servant)


If Sakura had had Avalon in HF, removing the worm in her heart would have been much easier.

I said there, but I mean here, Mike. I know that Avalon would have been helpful in HF, but this isn't HF (or even canon FSN), so she wouldn't need the help, because she doesn't have the worms. But it would help her in the war, that's for sure.

Mike1984
September 15th, 2011, 04:40 AM
I said there, but I mean here, Mike. I know that Avalon would have been helpful in HF, but this isn't HF (or even canon FSN), so she wouldn't need the help, because she doesn't have the worms. But it would help her in the war, that's for sure.

Erm, what?

Whilst her not having the worms is a possibility, I got the impression that it's one he was unlikely to follow, since removing her from Zouken's "care" would have a significant effect on the fourth war and, consequentially, Rin (specifically, without Kariya involved, Aoi would likely still be alive and sane, and thus would look after her).

Prince Charon
September 15th, 2011, 05:37 AM
Erm, what?

Whilst her not having the worms is a possibility, I got the impression that it's one he was unlikely to follow, since removing her from Zouken's "care" would have a significant effect on the fourth war and, consequentially, Rin (specifically, without Kariya involved, Aoi would likely still be alive and sane, and thus would look after her).
If Kariya stays out of the war, which he would if Sakura went to someone else, Tokiomi might not be dead, and Rin would have been raised by both her parents, which means I have no bloody clue how she would have grown up, beyond 'not as lonely'. If Tokiomi still dies, Kariya most likely marries Aoi, and helps her raise Rin. Really, I should have left the 'Sakura with another family' option to a thread of its own.

So, ten line aria.

It might start with 'I am the <blank> of my <blank>', as that's sort of a theme with alternate Shirou's RMs. 'Fire is my blood' can probably be kept, also, as it fits so well.

Ergast
September 15th, 2011, 06:08 AM
@mike well, now it seems unlikely, but when you said that, I understood it as the option to follow, with Sakura being in a family of crystal magi, that use a magecraft similar to the Tohsaka's jewel magecraft.

And I don't see why Tokiomi would be alive if Kariya isn't in the war. It's Kotomine the one who kills him, not Kariya.

Mike1984
September 15th, 2011, 06:10 AM
If Kariya stays out of the war, which he would if Sakura went to someone else, Tokiomi might not be dead, and Rin would have been raised by both her parents, which means I have no bloody clue how she would have grown up, beyond 'not as lonely'. If Tokiomi still dies, Kariya most likely marries Aoi, and helps her raise Rin. Really, I should have left the 'Sakura with another family' option to a thread of its own.

Well, Tokiomi would likely die either way, either at Kotomine's hand or at the hands of someone else (possibly even Gil himself when he pisses him off for the last time) but, yeah, I agree that Sakura going elsewhere would probably change the story substantially enough that it would be hard to fit in here, which is why I was looking for other ways to prevent her being totally shafted.


@mike well, now it seems unlikely, but when you said that, I understood it as the option to follow, with Sakura being in a family of crystal magi, that use a magecraft similar to the Tohsaka's jewel magecraft.

OK, fair enough.


And I don't see why Tokiomi would be alive if Kariya isn't in the war. It's Kotomine the one who kills him, not Kariya.

Because the reason Kotomine turns on him is because he's interested in Kariya and, then, Tokiomi orders him to leave Fuyuki just when it's getting intriguing. Without Kariya there, he might not turn on him and, thus, Tokiomi might not die.

nununu
September 15th, 2011, 06:15 AM
How about 'unaware not-heir younger sibling' played straight?

Mike1984
September 15th, 2011, 06:15 AM
How about 'unaware not-heir younger sibling' played straight?

Erm, what?

Ergast
September 15th, 2011, 06:21 AM
He is talking about Sakura. And about Kotomine... isn't it also because he was interested in Kiritsugu? I admit it is sometime since the last time I read Tokiomi's death, but I remember Kotomine being interested mainly in Kiritsugu, although he also was interested in Kariya.

Mike1984
September 15th, 2011, 06:33 AM
He is talking about Sakura.

Yeah, I know that, I'm just wondering whose "younger sibling" he was talking about her being, and how he intends to make that work given that Sakura is an extremely powerful magus (who Tokiomi seemed to think would be in serious danger if she were not trained) and, further, the point of not having her situation change was to prevent knock-on effects to Rin.


And about Kotomine... isn't it also because he was interested in Kiritsugu? I admit it is sometime since the last time I read Tokiomi's death, but I remember Kotomine being interested mainly in Kiritsugu, although he also was interested in Kariya.

His ultimate interest was in Kiritsugu, yes, but his first betrayal of Tokiomi was to save Kariya after their battle. That was the first time he contemplated going against the wishes of his father.

Prince Charon
September 15th, 2011, 07:19 AM
Really, I should have left the 'Sakura with another family' option to a thread of its own.

So, ten line aria.

It might start with 'I am the <blank> of my <blank>', as that's sort of a theme with alternate Shirou's RMs. 'Fire is my blood' can probably be kept, also, as it fits so well.
So, anyone have any thoughts on the aria?

reborn214
September 15th, 2011, 10:56 AM
Not sure I would probably start it out with
I am the remains of a tragedy

Prince Charon
September 15th, 2011, 11:14 AM
Not sure I would probably start it out with
I am the remains of a tragedy
Good start.

Oh, since it might come up again, I'll give my opinion as OP writer on Sakura and Avalon:

If Sakura has access to both Avalon and Arturia, and Shirou knows about the worms, he could, with enough preparation and some sacrifices, burn out the worms from her body, all of them, without injuring her beyond Avalon's ability to quickly heal. It will be very painful, but she's long accustomed to pain.

If Rin is involved, which she would be if anyone bothered to tell Shirou that she's Sakura's sister, she ought to be able to supply a few prana-charged diamonds, the burning of which would greatly reduce the preparations Shirou would need to make.

On another note, someone mentioned Kokutou Azaka (http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Kokutou_Azaka) as a possible Servant, and I looked her up. Interesting. I wonder how she might have developed, later in life, at the point where she could become a Counter Guardian. Her Origin, Taboo, not only could help Ayaka, but might lead to Shirou getting a harem.

Not sure what her class or write-up would be.

Hymn of Ragnarok
September 15th, 2011, 12:03 PM
Potential lines:

An ever-burning monument to the past

Fire is my blood, and my heart is made of ash



Depending on circumstances and if Shirou hates himself: Consuming all that I touch


I'm partial to ash, unless someone can come up with an idea for a similar substance. Cinder doesn't sound nearly as classy.

Mike1984
September 15th, 2011, 12:13 PM
Oh, since it might come up again, I'll give my opinion as OP writer on Sakura and Avalon:

If Sakura has access to both Avalon and Arturia, and Shirou knows about the worms, he could, with enough preparation and some sacrifices, burn out the worms from her body, all of them, without injuring her beyond Avalon's ability to quickly heal. It will be very painful, but she's long accustomed to pain.

If Rin is involved, which she would be if anyone bothered to tell Shirou that she's Sakura's sister, she ought to be able to supply a few prana-charged diamonds, the burning of which would greatly reduce the preparations Shirou would need to make.

Yeah, that makes sense.

And, yeah, the fact that it's excrutiatingly painful isn't going to stop Sakura going ahead with it, although Shirou might be less-than-pleased with the idea. The main question, though, is whether Shirou would even know her and, if he did (or didn't), whether and how he'd find out about the worms.

Prince Charon
September 15th, 2011, 12:34 PM
Yeah, that makes sense.

And, yeah, the fact that it's excrutiatingly painful isn't going to stop Sakura going ahead with it, although Shirou might be less-than-pleased with the idea. The main question, though, is whether Shirou would even know her and, if he did (or didn't), whether and how he'd find out about the worms.
I figured he goes to the same school, and is probably in Taiga's class, so he can be there if she needs anything, so he'd certainly have opportunities to meet Sakura.


Potential lines:

An ever-burning monument to the past

Fire is my blood, and my heart is made of ash



Depending on circumstances and if Shirou hates himself: Consuming all that I touch


I'm partial to ash, unless someone can come up with an idea for a similar substance. Cinder doesn't sound nearly as classy.
'Consuming all that I touch' could be followed with something like 'to make room for new growth', though.

"I am the remains of a tragedy
An ever-burning monument to the past
Fire is my blood, and my heart is made of ash
Consuming all that I touch, to make room for new growth

Mike1984
September 15th, 2011, 12:41 PM
I figured he goes to the same school, and is probably in Taiga's class, so he can be there if she needs anything, so he'd certainly have opportunities to meet Sakura.

Yeah, fair enough. And, I can certainly see her still falling for him....

Hymn of Ragnarok
September 15th, 2011, 02:06 PM
'Consuming all that I touch' could be followed with something like 'to make room for new growth', though.

"I am the remains of a tragedy
An ever-burning monument to the past
Fire is my blood, and my heart is made of ash
Consuming all that I touch, to make room for new growth

Hmm. I feel like the 'Fire is my blood' line either needs to be removed, modified, or placed elsewhere.

I am the remains of a tragedy
An ever-burning monument to the past
Consuming all that I touch, to make room for new growth

Or, since this seems like a more positive and life affirming area, describe his heart as a hearth. Much more symbolic connotations. It'd be even better if we could contrast it with a more destructive depiction of fire.

shiningphoenix
September 15th, 2011, 03:25 PM
"This is the fire in my soul"?

Also: Hmm, I wonder if CG Azaka was actually sent back for the purpose of a foursome...

reborn214
September 15th, 2011, 03:50 PM
How about?
I am the remains of a tragedy
An ever burning monument of the past
my flesh is coal and my breath is ash
I have reached forth and consumed everything
Yet I have never been fulfilled
Still I consume all that I touch, give life to all that I can
So that the tragedy will never repeat itself
So as I pray ___________ works

The blazing sun that never sets
Can you survive this inferno King of heroes?

Good or bad chant?

Hymn of Ragnarok
September 15th, 2011, 03:51 PM
Good. Definitely good.

Change it to Monument to the past though. Of the past makes Shirou sound like he considers himself a relic.

EDIT: Hmm. On further reflection, while this is still good, it can be made better. Consuming everything implies that Shirou believes, on some level, that he has consumed everything. That wouldn't make sense. I suggested consumed all I touched because a self loathing Shirou could think he made things worse for everybody, but a Shirou who is more positive? Perhaps something elses...

Prince Charon
September 15th, 2011, 05:59 PM
How about?
I am the remains of a tragedy
An ever burning monument of the past
my flesh is coal and my breath is ash
I have reached forth and consumed everything
Yet I have never been fulfilled
Still I consume all that I touch, give life to all that I can
So that the tragedy will never repeat itself
So as I pray ___________ works

The blazing sun that never sets
Can you survive this inferno King of heroes?

Good or bad chant?
Mostly good, but I think it needs two more lines, and 'works' should be removed. It's 'Birth of the Phoenix', or perhaps 'Cradle of the Phoenix'. Also, see Hymn of Ragnarok's suggestion.

Thank you.

Cubia - the - Anti-Existence
September 16th, 2011, 03:04 AM
Perhaps something along the lines of "like a phoenix rising out of hell" as the line that reflects on the Fuyuki fire?

Prince Charon
October 19th, 2011, 07:10 AM
BGM On (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cUs8FEsDUZ4)

Shirou:
I am the remains of a tragedy
An ever burning monument to the past
My flesh is coal and my breath is ash
I have reached forth and consumed everything
Like a phoenix rising out of hell
Yet I have never been fulfilled
Still I consume all that I touch, give life to all that I can
So that the tragedy will never repeat itself
This is my path, to bring about
The Birth of the Phoenix!

Gilgamesh:
What...?!

Shirou:
The blazing sun that never sets
Can you survive this inferno, King of Heroes?


So, awesome, or not?

Ergast
October 19th, 2011, 09:53 AM
Everything is awesome with phoenixes.

Prince Charon
October 19th, 2011, 06:31 PM
I do admit that I'm not totally happy with the aria, since Hymn has a good point, but I don't have anything to replace the 'consumed' bit with.

Hymn of Ragnarok
October 19th, 2011, 06:33 PM
It's good, but I'd also cut the first use of phoenix. The rising out of hell bit. Invoking the phoenix by name earlier in the aria dilutes its impact in the end.

Prince Charon
October 19th, 2011, 07:32 PM
It's good, but I'd also cut the first use of phoenix. The rising out of hell bit. Invoking the phoenix by name earlier in the aria dilutes its impact in the end.
Right, I'll think about it, but then I need a line to replace it, since its supposed to be a ten-count aria. Anyone have suggestions?

EDIT: The bolded line is what we're discussing, if anyone missed it:

I am the remains of a tragedy
An ever burning monument to the past
My flesh is coal and my breath is ash
I have reached forth and consumed everything
Like a phoenix rising out of hell
Yet I have never been fulfilled
Still I consume all that I touch, give life to all that I can
So that the tragedy will never repeat itself
This is my path, to bring about
The Birth of the Phoenix!

Prince Charon
October 20th, 2011, 08:19 PM
The Eromancer on TFF has been quite helpful. I think we might have a final version.

BGM On (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cUs8FEsDUZ4)

Shirou:
I am the remains of a tragedy
An ever burning monument to the past
My flesh is coal and my breath is ash
I have walked through fire and death
Made unto myself the devouring flame
Yet I have never been fulfilled
Still I consume all that I touch, give life to all that I can
So that the tragedy will never repeat itself
This is my path, to bring about
The Birth of the Phoenix!

Gilgamesh:
What...?!

Shirou:
The blazing sun that never sets
Can you survive this inferno, King of Heroes?

Hymn of Ragnarok
October 20th, 2011, 08:23 PM
Hmm. Consider swapping one of the consume/consuming with an appropriate form of devour.

Prince Charon
October 21st, 2011, 02:11 PM
Hmm. Consider swapping one of the consume/consuming with an appropriate form of devour.
Not sure which one would sound better, but you're probably right. I guess I could flip a coin.

Have been thinking about Ayaka. Not being so utterly oblivious as Shirou is, she easily recognizes that two other girls fell in love with him, when they saw him going for the BAR. Worse, they're both from important, powerful, old, wealthy mage families. Worst of all, she can't bring herself to hate either of them, as both are orphans with no female role-model, being raised by men she finds massively creepy. Mind you, she guessed wrong about which of her rivals is a virgin, but that's because Shinji managed to make a good impression on her, and she can't imagine her back-up crush (if she completely and absolutely fails with Shirou, refreshing the Matou line doesn't sound so bad to her) putting up with someone treating his sister like that. If she ever finds out the truth, well, hell hath no fury.

Anyway, some time before the Fifth Holy Grail War, she approaches Rin and Sakura, separately, and asks each something like 'If you marry Shirou, will you accept me as his mistress?', with the idea that she'll push Shirou toward the girl who says yes (well, she will, unless she manages to win Shirou, herself). Not entirely certain how they'll respond. On one hand, Sakura is both far to nice and lacking in self-esteem, and Rin appears to be bisexual, but on the other, Rin is a tsundere, and the thought of marrying Shirou-sempai is likely to send Sakura to her happy place (neither of which facilitates communication, you see).

So, thoughts?

reborn214
October 21st, 2011, 03:34 PM
Meh, I'm tend to dislike harem's in general and think Shirou should just pick one without mistresses

Delcer
October 21st, 2011, 06:24 PM
I'm fine with going with whatever type of romance the author decides on; I'm indifferent towards most harems or single pairings so long as they are written well. I'm liking what you did for the aria as well; though for prospective servants I'm against having one from another show. That said, this is just an opinion, and by no means concrete, if you think you can write it well, I'll take your word for it and eagerly await your story.

Hymn of Ragnarok
October 21st, 2011, 06:33 PM
Harems are meh and not very convincing unless in the hands of a talented author or characters who just click together. Love triangle is one thing, harem is another. And saying everyone lived in a harem happily ever after without seriously accounting for the dynamics is just copping out.

Shirou:
I am the remains of a tragedy
An ever burning monument to the past
My flesh is coal and my breath is ash
I have walked through fire and death
Made unto myself the eternal flame
Yet I have never been fulfilled
Still I consume all that I touch, give life to all that I can
So that the tragedy will never repeat itself
This is my path, to bring about
The Birth of the Phoenix!

Gilgamesh:
What...?!

Shirou:
The blazing sun that never sets
Can you survive this inferno, King of Heroes?


Eternal isn't exactly perfect here, but it works I think.

Prince Charon
October 21st, 2011, 07:06 PM
Just because Ayaka asks, doesn't mean either one agrees, nor does it mean, if someone agrees, that it works out.

Hymn of Ragnarok
October 21st, 2011, 07:20 PM
True, I suppose.

Mike1984
October 21st, 2011, 07:22 PM
Yeah, the whole "harem" idea sounds a bit dubious to me, especially when both girls are only doing it because they're after the guy. That's not a good set-up for a long-term relationship....

reborn214
October 21st, 2011, 07:23 PM
By the way what is Shirou's reality Marble's unique ability? Besides just creating a really big fireball what is the special reality breaking thing that it does?

Hymn of Ragnarok
October 21st, 2011, 07:31 PM
Hmm. The fire needs no fuel and never extinguishes? So being trapped for prolonged periods of time or being grazed with fire is practically a death sentence.

Vanathor
October 21st, 2011, 08:00 PM
Endless inferno does not really strike the "cool" factor in me... Especially when you consider how damage resistant Servants are. How about you touch onto the other aspects of the phoenix...

The traditional cycle of life, death and rebirth. Interestingly in Alchemy it is used to represent the Philosophers Stone. Maybe within the reality marble, the law of equivalent exchange can be broken? IE creating something from nothing. That can get pretty interesting.

Prince Charon
October 21st, 2011, 09:21 PM
Endless inferno does not really strike the "cool" factor in me...
Ouch. Bad pun, that.


Especially when you consider how damage resistant Servants are. How about you touch onto the other aspects of the phoenix...

The traditional cycle of life, death and rebirth. Interestingly in Alchemy it is used to represent the Philosophers Stone. Maybe within the reality marble, the law of equivalent exchange can be broken? IE creating something from nothing. That can get pretty interesting.
Most interesting suggestion, so far. Should perhaps be elaborated on, though, especially as he's a formalcrafter, not an alchemist.

EDIT: As for Ayaka, the point of her asking is to show how much she wants him. Its characterization.

Hymn of Ragnarok
October 21st, 2011, 09:27 PM
Hmm. Within the Reality Marble he has essentially limitless prana somehow? Hmm...perhaps a healing factor, being a flaming corpse that feels no pain and lacks a weak point?

Shirou becomes the fire. There's one. He's not bringing people to a landscape, he becomes the landscape.

Vanathor
October 21st, 2011, 09:36 PM
Ouch. Bad pun, that.


Most interesting suggestion, so far. Should perhaps be elaborated on, though, especially as he's a formalcrafter, not an alchemist.

EDIT: As for Ayaka, the point of her asking is to show how much she wants him. Its characterization.

He might be a formalcrafter I see no reason why he would be solely limited to it. I mean in Fate/Zero the fake priest allegedly became an expert in like 4 different schools of magic in like a three year apprenticeship to Tokiomi. I see no reason why he could not have a focus in alchemy as well.

Within the reality marble, he can manipulate energy (the "fire" that his prana composes, and create the equivelent of sword-rain for the tenth of the cost. I can see him getting really creative with Atlas-style alchemy...

PS - I support Karna being his servant.

reborn214
October 21st, 2011, 09:40 PM
Still alchemy without costs doesn't really tie in with the fire theme and blazing sun that never sets. Shirou becoming part of the inferno sounds like an interesting concept maybe we can expend this

Hymn of Ragnarok
October 21st, 2011, 09:41 PM
He might be a formalcrafter I see no reason why he would be solely limited to it. I mean in Fate/Zero the fake priest allegedly became an expert in like 4 different schools of magic in like a three year apprenticeship to Tokiomi. I see no reason why he could not have a focus in alchemy as well.

Within the reality marble, he can manipulate energy (the "fire" that his prana composes, and create the equivelent of sword-rain for the tenth of the cost. I can see him getting really creative with Atlas-style alchemy...

PS - I support Karna being his servant.

...Right. Idea. Formalcraft is drawing mana into a ritual circle to convert to prana, or to use, right?

Make his Reality Marble one giant ritual circle/sphere that mitigates its own cost by sucking the world outside the RM dry.

reborn214
October 21st, 2011, 09:46 PM
A reality marble that eats at reality to fuel itself being in the reality marble not only has an endless stream of fire but also the marble eats the existence of all the inhabitants except the caster causing them to lose power and hollowing their soul.

What do you think? It kinda ties into the emptiness Shirou feels after the fire the feeling that he isn't needed and should just die already

Vanathor
October 21st, 2011, 09:50 PM
Sounds like a really cool idea. A self perpetuating Ritual Circle (which is a multipurpose tool all its own.) that consumes everything inside and out it (akin to Rider's Bloodfort or that one magus-killer plant in Tainted Ideals but even more so.). It can use of a lot of Epic Magic inside of it, while also making Servants severely weakened, and Maguses outright dead in minutes from prana drain. And that is not even considering the endless inferno aspect. Sounds pretty reality breaking hax enough for me.

Hymn of Ragnarok
October 21st, 2011, 09:51 PM
A reality marble that eats at reality to fuel itself being in the reality marble not only has an endless stream of fire but also the marble eats the existence of all the inhabitants except the caster causing them to lose power and hollowing their soul.

What do you think? It kinda ties into the emptiness Shirou feels after the fire the feeling that he isn't needed and should just die already

Add bolstering the strength of his allies by being able to pretty much stuff them full of prana and it's pretty thorough.

Haven't played Tsukihime (yet) but do all RMs keep the RM user solid or can they become part of or hide in their environment? If so, Shirou should become or hide in it. Actually, in HF Ilya has Shirou 'looking' through tress and objects. So Shirou ought to be able to become his RM unless I'm missing something. Make one of the biggest threats to him someone breaking the RM, like Ea or Excalibur. No guarantee that Shirou will return in one piece.

Vanathor
October 21st, 2011, 09:55 PM
Hymm, what do you think of my idea?

Hymn of Ragnarok
October 21st, 2011, 10:03 PM
Sounds like a really cool idea. A self perpetuating Ritual Circle (which is a multipurpose tool all its own.)

True. It could translate as one of Shirou's skills outside the RM. I feel like Shirou should spend his childhood imagining burning to death in the fire of Fuyuki in order to activate his circuits.


that consumes everything inside and out it (akin to Rider's Bloodfort or that one magus-killer plant in Tainted Ideals but even more so.). I can use of a lot of Epic Magic inside of it, while also making Servants severely weakened, and Maguses outright dead in minutes from prana drain. And that is not even considering the endless inferno aspect. Sounds pretty reality breaking hax enough for me.

Hmm. Some good ideas here. Epic Magic? If he knows it maybe, but I would think something as prana intensive as an RM would put most of the prana towards maintaining the RM. Using more prana would end it faster, and Shirou may or may not be capable of using too much.

Perhaps getting around the limitation by flat out no longer requiring his circuits to shape some spells in the RM? Age of the Gods style magic with roots in Formalcraft? Maybe.

Magi could die from prana drain perhaps, or just get burned to death. It's a workable idea. Like Caster's spell to suck souls, Shirou has a similar ability. If he chooses to use it.

Vanathor
October 21st, 2011, 10:06 PM
I like the way you think Ragnarok. Hopefully Charon likes it too, when he writes this.

EDIT: Regarding Shirou having a female servant... It would not be too much of a stretch to genderbend Karna. In fact I think it would be something cool to read.

Hymn of Ragnarok
October 21st, 2011, 10:14 PM
I like the way you think Ragnarok. Hopefully Charon likes it too, when he writes this.

Why thank you.


EDIT: Regarding Shirou having a female servant... It would not be too much of a stretch to genderbend Karna. In fact I think it would be something cool to read.

Hmm. Gender bending Servants is a bit overdone, but it is possible. Depends on what the piece wants to do, how it'd affect and reinterpret Karna's personality and abilities, et cetera.

Vanathor
October 21st, 2011, 10:17 PM
Charon said earlier in this thread that he wanted Shirou to have a female Servant. I was just responding to that, in such a way that Charon gets what he wants, and Servant Karna is still around.

reborn214
October 21st, 2011, 10:18 PM
Well Karna in his story was very Snarky and honorable. He also was stubborn and never gave up regardless of the challenges, but as a female I have no idea what that would be like

Hymn of Ragnarok
October 21st, 2011, 10:21 PM
Well Karna in his story was very Snarky and honorable. He also was stubborn and never gave up regardless of the challenges, but as a female I have no idea what that would be like

I feel like Karna would make a good role model or older brother figure for this Shirou. Better a mentor than a love interest.

reborn214
October 21st, 2011, 10:24 PM
Yeah i agree with you, but I'd lean more to mentor

Hymn of Ragnarok
October 21st, 2011, 10:48 PM
Particularly since I don't think Shirou will discover his potential for an RM without someone like Karna seeing his potential. Imagining himself burning in Fuyuki or being the burning city leads to the RM being developed, but Karna's advice and guidance is probably needed to make Shirou believe he's capable and therefore solidify it.

Prince Charon
October 22nd, 2011, 07:47 AM
Had another thought on Ayaka: Her glasses are special. While the lenses came from an optometrist, the metal frames are a Mystic Code forged for her by Shirou, as a birthday gift. Not sure what powers they have, but some form of perception magecraft seems likely. Possibly a defense against mind-control, as well.

Speaking of Mystic Codes, this may be how Shirou gets money - by making them. Was thinking he made lots of minor, one-shot Mystic Codes for a demon-hunter family, in the form of bullets or throwing knives. Occasionally, he gets a bigger order, for something more permanent, but he isn't well-known enough to get a lot of those.

Vanathor
October 22nd, 2011, 11:57 AM
That is not a bad idea. Charon, do you have an ETA when you think you will be starting to write this?

Prince Charon
October 22nd, 2011, 01:21 PM
That is not a bad idea. Charon, do you have an ETA when you think you will be starting to write this?
Its an open idea. I'm not so much writing it, as participating in its creation.

Mike1984
October 22nd, 2011, 01:44 PM
Its an open idea. I'm not so much writing it, as participating in its creation.

Yeah, the problem with these "open ideas" is that I don't see anyone else being likely to write it. As good an idea as it is, it's hard to get people to pick up ideas that are designed in this way.

reborn214
October 22nd, 2011, 01:47 PM
I might write it, but the problem is I've never written anything before so it would probably turn out badly

Prince Charon
October 22nd, 2011, 02:11 PM
My main problem is that I'm good at coming up with interesting plot points, and can visualize scenes, but generally can't turn that into a story (often, I can't turn a scene I've visualized into words). Part of it is having to many ideas that can't all fit in the same fic, which makes focusing on any one difficult.

Anyway, a story can have more than one author, and I'm very inclined to help.

Vanathor
October 22nd, 2011, 04:44 PM
Off the cuff...
-------------------------------

The command seal took hold, and Saber's holy blade struck the tainted grail true. The spirit within the omnipotent chalice cried out in anguish as its vessel was shattered and the Once And Future King dissipated with nothing to bind her to the mortal plain of existence. Thus the fourth grail war ended, its champion forsaking he prize without a second glance.

All that remained as a testament to the meaningless bloodshed was Fire. A great and terrible Fire. A burning inferno that would leave little but ash and cinders once it was eventually quelled.

In the Fire a child walked through the blazing holocaust, the soles of his feet blistered and scorched. He briefly considered laying down to take nap and wait for sleep to make the pain go away but just as quickly dismissed the thought. If he had to sleep, it would be when he could not take a single step further.

His mother and father had already gone to sleep, but the boy hadn't. Not yet. He should have felt worse than he did, even with the pain. He loved his parents he really did, but giving up would not bring them back.

Through the Fire he walked, ignoring the cries for help from the ones who already fallen, his breath laboring with every step. 'Just one more step' the boy thought 'Just one more step'​

And so took his one more step.

--------------------

Sajyou Nakamura moved through the streets of Fuyuki, his brisk stride that of a man with a purpose. He was glad that his foresight had been great enough that his decision to have his wife and daughter leave the city for the duration of the Heaven's Feel Ritual was a wise one. At the very least they would be safe if nothing else.

He did not feel the effects of the heat, his admittedly minor talent for magecraft granting him that small blessing. Having been a resident of Fuyuki City for more than a decade he knew he would be approaching the city limits soon, and so long as the Fire had not spread further then that he would be safe.

As the magus neared his destination he saw something which struck a chord within his heart. A young boy was crawling, his feet having given out on him, but even still striving to survive. As he looked on him something not immediately apparent became clear. Nakamura's sixth sense has always been particularly sharp compared to the vast majority of mages, strong enough that he could "see" things not normally apparent to the average magecraft user.

It was only because of this that Nakamura was able to sense something different about the nameless child. He had a destiny in his future, should he survive. He would be one of the few to become truly Great given time. But with his survival no means certain the winds of fate were in flux, and his destiny was far from assured.

Nakamura made a decision. Walking up to the red haired boy, he quickly examined him for injury. The child was as gravely hurt as he thought, and only quick intervention would grant salvation. Reaching into his pocket, he took out two objects, a piece of chalk, and a jewel. Hurriedly he drew arcane symbols, and the required ritual circle, and flared his prana through the jewel.

The energy held within the semi-precious gem resonated to its creators will, and it so dispersed. Flooding the circle, it followed the symbols, the energy channeling into the child, healing him. The gem was not strong enough to bring total recovery but it took care of the worst of the wounds. It would buy enough time for more complete medical treatment. This much done, unless something were to go horribly awry, the boy would live.

Picking up the now unconscious the younger one of the pair, Nakamura walked on.

--------------------------------------------

Here it is, not much but just how I picture the first scene. Not sure if I will write more then this, so feel free to take it and continue it at will...
Oh and just to clarify, Nakamura is just a name I picked randomly, if Ayaka's father has a canon name please let me know so I can edit.fy, Nakamura is just a name I picked randomly, if Ayaka's father has a canon name please let me know so I can edit.

Prince Charon
October 22nd, 2011, 05:24 PM
I don't think her father has a canon name, so Nakamura is fine, unless someone who actually speaks Japanese shows up to say otherwise.

Oh, I wouldn't use 'infant' to refer to his daughter at this point, since she's around Shirou's age, but that's minor. I think I spotted some grammar or spelling errors, but I'm to tired to point them out, right now. Over all, its a good first draft, IMHO.

Vanathor
October 23rd, 2011, 11:30 AM
edited the bit regarding the infant daughter comment, and changed it up some, to fix some grammar breaks, but it is still far from perfect.

Can I get the thoughts of someone other then Charon?

reborn214
October 23rd, 2011, 11:57 AM
Hmm, seems good to me there are some grammatical errors like prize should be his prize but overall a nice first intro

Vanathor
October 23rd, 2011, 12:06 PM
I am about to start writing the next scene, but I am not sure where to go from here. I could go either with a time skip (to what point in time?), or introducing Shirou to the family... or what?

reborn214
October 23rd, 2011, 12:12 PM
It's mainly up to you, but maybe you can skip the introduction and then touch back on it with a flashback when Ayaka compares how empty Shirou was when they first met and how lively he is now. By the way what exactly got Shirou out of his soul crushing emptiness after the fire and witnessing his family get burned alive?

Vanathor
October 23rd, 2011, 12:20 PM
I personally see him being very similar to Kotomine, only he is just much better at hiding his distortion.

reborn214
October 23rd, 2011, 12:24 PM
Kotomine was actually pretty good at hiding his distortion, but on another note I think Shirou should actaully have kinda of a hot blooded personality in this story since his origin and element is fire. If you're going for the Kotomineish Shirou then his Origin would probably be emptiness

Vanathor
October 23rd, 2011, 02:31 PM
I don't know... I just don't see Shirou as being reckless, even with an origin of Fire. As for his distortion it would not be as heavy as Kotomines, just in my view, he goes through periods of creation and destruction (the cycle of rebirth), where he is filled with passion, then he just wants to tear everything down.

Prince Charon
October 23rd, 2011, 03:18 PM
I don't know... I just don't see Shirou as being reckless, even with an origin of Fire. As for his distortion it would not be as heavy as Kotomines, just in my view, he goes through periods of creation and destruction (the cycle of rebirth), where he is filled with passion, then he just wants to tear everything down.
I can see that. Ayaka would probably have gotten pretty good at helping him channel his destructive impulses (or gotten a lot of practice trying), by the time they got to High School... or not, but that how she seems in my head. Thoughts?

reborn214
October 23rd, 2011, 03:34 PM
I don't know... I just don't see Shirou as being reckless, even with an origin of Fire. As for his distortion it would not be as heavy as Kotomines, just in my view, he goes through periods of creation and destruction (the cycle of rebirth), where he is filled with passion, then he just wants to tear everything down.

That is better than my hot blooded idea. Still, how would you represent these periods of passion and destruction? Perhaps you can have him calm down and be less polar as he grows older.

Prince Charon
October 23rd, 2011, 04:27 PM
That is better than my hot blooded idea. Still, how would you represent these periods of passion and destruction? Perhaps you can have him calm down and be less polar as he grows older.
Yeah, I'd say he would. It may be mostly a matter of learning better self control, something a lot of martial arts are good for.

Hymn of Ragnarok
October 26th, 2011, 02:47 AM
Right, first criticism of the opening scene is the jewel magic. Last I checked it belonged to the Tohsakas and Zelretch, so unless my memory is wrong I don't see how someone else has access to it. It's the only thing that really mars the scene on my first impression though.

For Shirou, give him an Origin of Rebirth. But in order for something to be born anew, it has to die. Give him an affinity for fire as well. Phoenix as his Origin would be pushing it, but Rebirth adequately contains powers of creation and destruction. Shirou's bipolar episodes could involve him making a work of art, hating it, and burning it before he even starts to recreate it. No keeping old pictures for reference, if he remakes something it will be completely new.

Mike1984
October 26th, 2011, 05:21 AM
Right, first criticism of the opening scene is the jewel magic. Last I checked it belonged to the Tohsakas and Zelretch, so unless my memory is wrong I don't see how someone else has access to it. It's the only thing that really mars the scene on my first impression though.

Your memory is wrong.

The Edelfelts use jewel magic, and as far as I know they're unconnected to Zelretch. Whilst it is certainly true that it is a Tohsaka speciality, there's no reason to believe that they're the only family capable of it. Hell, it may well be that any magus can do it, but the Tohsakas are just more efficient.

VelspertheCat
October 26th, 2011, 05:50 AM
there's a mineralogy department in Clocktower too.

Hymn of Ragnarok
October 28th, 2011, 01:49 PM
Your memory is wrong.

The Edelfelts use jewel magic, and as far as I know they're unconnected to Zelretch. Whilst it is certainly true that it is a Tohsaka speciality, there's no reason to believe that they're the only family capable of it. Hell, it may well be that any magus can do it, but the Tohsakas are just more efficient.

Really now? Interesting. Got a citation for that? I'd like to read that myself.

Also, mineralogy isn't confined to the study of gems and crystals. I could see it applying to fields of Earth based magic as well. I'd have to read the relevant scenes though.

Also, quoted a post I made back at TFF. People are discussing whether characters' minds and personalities could be reincarnated through Shirou's RM. I built on that, but won't drag the topic here. Parts of relevant interest here are bolded:


Put Sakura on standby: consider what would happen to Gilgamesh and Kotomine.

Gilgamesh could have the taint of the Grail burned out of him. If he can resist All The Evils of the World I don't see him fully reincarnating, but the corruption of the Grail? I can see that burning nicely.

I know Gil is supposed to be unable to be controlled by Command Spells of Grail mud, but there's a difference between his attitude in Fate/Zero and FSN, so I chalk it up to the Grail Mud constantly whispering to his subconscious. So while Gil can't be compelled to do something he would never do, the Grail Mud draws out Gil's arrogance and all around asshatery to their fullest measure.

It would take some specific circumstances for Shirou to purify Gil, have Gil realize and acknowledge it, and Shirou to live to tell the tale, but I'v never seen Gil 'purified' in an FSN story. Could be interesting. It'd certainly be new, and in a story like this I say that cram as much novelty into the story as you can.

As for Kotomine, he wanted AM to be born to see if what is naturally evil must always be evil, or if it could have been good. With Shirou's RM, however, he may not need AM to answer that question. If Kotomine was willing to be reincarnated, to give himself the proverbial second chance...well. New territory to be explored.

Hmm. Rider was once a goddess instead of a monster. Could Shirou reincarnate her and restore her lost Divinity? Perhaps, if her Divinity is still there but suppressed by her deeds in life and monstrous nature. If lost, I don't see how Shirou could restore it without somehow having a link to Akasha. Which, in itself, could be downright fascinating if it can be feasibly justified. I'd have to watch KnK again to plan this out. But Shirou being, on some level, aware of everything a person can be in all the infinite possible universes? Having the ability to draw certain qualities out of a person, but never being satisfied with what they become and therefore always encouraging new changes to their ever growing ire?

Wow that was a long tangent. I like the idea though.

Ilya? Perhaps, perhaps...it could let her survive the fifth Holy Grail War if it can be justified properly. I may think on this more later.

Brainstorm time: what kind of new ideals can we give Shirou? If his rescuer lacks the pure joy in finding Shirou that Kiritsugu had, Shirou would never wonder if he could be that happy. He may still be empty and distorted, but how? Would he have an fascination with remaking one's self? Destroying the old to usher in the new? I suggested a Rebirth Origin back at Beast Lair to give focus to the destruction of the old to create something new, but I'm interested on any ideas someone else has. Let's hear 'em!

Thoughts, comments?

Mike1984
October 28th, 2011, 02:24 PM
Really now? Interesting. Got a citation for that? I'd like to read that myself.

Not anything specifically, but I believe Luvia uses gem magic both in Hollow Ataraxia and also in Unlimited Codes. I may be mistaken, though....

Prince Charon
October 28th, 2011, 02:37 PM
Huh. Making Medusa a goddess, again? That would surprise, well, everyone, no?

Mind you, Gil has at least one anti-God weapon, and he hates gods, but the change would still be potentially useful. Would goddess Medusa become Servant Savior?

reborn214
October 28th, 2011, 02:41 PM
Well Luvia does in Prism Illya if that counts here http://www.mangafox.com/manga/fate_kaleid_liner_prisma_illya_2wei/v02/c013/15.html

I3uster
October 28th, 2011, 02:43 PM
Really now? Interesting. Got a citation for that? I'd like to read that myself.
Do the moves of Luvia in a fighting game convince you or do you need explicit statements?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WwXVGHirzkI

At 6:30. I can look for explicit statements too, but I am too lazy for that.
The Tohsaka got Gandr and Jewel Magecraft by marrying an Edelfelt heir in the third war. Prior they only had their martial arts.

Mike1984
October 28th, 2011, 03:22 PM
The Tohsaka got Gandr and Jewel Magecraft by marrying an Edelfelt heir in the third war. Prior they only had their martial arts.

I'm not convinced of this, honestly. Whilst they probably got Gandr from the Edelfelt, I can't imagine that they didn't have their own speciality prior to that, especially since they were Zelretch's apprentices.

I3uster
October 28th, 2011, 03:33 PM
Their speciality was martial arts and the whole "breathing and walking" thing western mages do not like.

Hymn of Ragnarok
October 28th, 2011, 04:32 PM
Do the moves of Luvia in a fighting game convince you or do you need explicit statements?

The movie is enough, though explicit statements are preferred when possible. I've never played Unlimited Codes so this is new to me.

Oddly enough, I saw a counter for Rin's Jewels but not Luvia's. At first I was thinking that it might mean that despite the appearance of Luvia's attacks, she isn't actually using jewel magic.

Then I decided that she's just waaaaaay richer than Tohsaka and therefore doesn't have to count her jewels. It's a funnier explanation.


The Tohsaka got Gandr and Jewel Magecraft by marrying an Edelfelt heir in the third war. Prior they only had their martial arts.

Hmm. I find it hard to believe that the Tohsaka's would get the blueprints for the Jeweled Sword as Zelretch's apprentices, but not the magic that is its foundation.

Then again, it is Zelretch, so him trolling the Tohsaka heir (Nagato or something?) for being the dimmest of his apprentices seems to be in character.

I3uster
October 28th, 2011, 04:34 PM
Yeah, I asked the same thing in the Questions thread, but apparently jewel magic isn't actually required to make that thing.

Hymn of Ragnarok
October 28th, 2011, 04:35 PM
Yeah, I asked the same thing in the Questions thread, but apparently jewel magic isn't actually required to make that thing.

...Seriously?

Color me surprised. Guess I'll be hunting through Questions when I have more time to kill.

EDIT:


Huh. Making Medusa a goddess, again? That would surprise, well, everyone, no?

Mind you, Gil has at least one anti-God weapon, and he hates gods, but the change would still be potentially useful. Would goddess Medusa become Servant Savior?

Only if the writer wants to copy a certain well respected author's fic~

Prince Charon
October 28th, 2011, 08:21 PM
Only if the writer wants to copy a certain well respected author's fic~
That's what it was a reference to. Even just restoring her godhood is getting pretty close.

Hymn of Ragnarok
October 28th, 2011, 09:19 PM
That's what it was a reference to. Even just restoring her godhood is getting pretty close.

Yeah, but there was a point to making her Servant Saver. Though I'll grant that restoring her Divinity does skirt the edge.

Prince Charon
March 7th, 2012, 05:10 PM
So, Fate/Prototype has been out for a while, and most of us have seen it, whether subtitled or RAW. This is important, because Ayaka is a fairly significant character in this fic. Admittedly, we don't learn a lot more about her, but what we do learn is potentially important, even though growing up with Shirou will change her to a degree. Its interesting that Lancer seems to have been mildly impressed by the black feathers she used as shuriken, for example. Since her father is dead, its not unreasonable that it was her uncle who saved Shirou, and then possibly took her in, or was invited to move into her house, rather than having her live alone.

Another thing, of course, is that we've seen Misaya, and Prototype Lancer. I think it might be interesting to import them into this story, but the question is, is it plausible that Misaya will avoid having her Command Seals stolen by Kotomine, and if so, would Gil bother to prevent her from killing the false priest?