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Tsukishiro
October 3rd, 2011, 03:39 PM
I read (or play) the novel but i dont get it, for what is the holy grail? i know that dont make any wish true, that it is for the heaven feels system, but what it is the heavens feel? and why illya have a dress with the same powers?

Neir
October 3rd, 2011, 03:41 PM
It is the third true magic. Resurrection of the soul.

food
October 3rd, 2011, 03:45 PM
The Grail is the chalice that held Christ's blood in legend. It is said to grant any wish, but nowadays it is just a name for anything that grants wishes.

The Einzbern "mechanism" is said to grant wishes, so it is called a Grail. Everyone knows it is not THE Grail, but no one cares.

The purpose of the Einzbern "mechanism" is to punch a hole to Akasha, the "wish granting" is a byproduct that can be made by using the huge amount of mana it stores (also a good lure for recruiting Servants and Masters).


EDIT:

As to the Dress of Heaven, it is a Mystic Code made from Liz (one of the maid Homonculi). It can emulate the power of the Grail for a brief period thanks to Liz herself being a failed Minor Grail.

Mcjon01
October 3rd, 2011, 03:50 PM
And I'm pretty sure the purpose of the ritual is only the punching of the hole to Akasha so that the Einzberns can recover the Third Magic. The Third Magic isn't actually involved in the ritual itself save for in a very limited fashion with the materialization of Servants and the Dress of Heaven. But those are probably the Third in the same way that Tsubame Gaeshi and the projected Jewel Sword are the Second.

Zankaze
October 3rd, 2011, 03:52 PM
And to open this path to Akasha, The Grail needs the power of the heroes' souls. It's a trap for them, in reality. That is why they must fight: when they "die", their souls are assimilated by the Grail and it stores power.

food
October 3rd, 2011, 04:02 PM
The souls of Heroic Spirits are not actually consumed. They are leased so the power of their return to Akasha can punch the hole from this World to Akasha. It's a bit unclear if this force directly punches the hole, or if the force is harnessed and the Grail punches the hole (I think it may be the later, because there's the "what kind of wish can be fulfilled depends on how many Servants are killed"). Regardless, the souls are allowed to return, and the hole is punched in the process. The Greater Grail then stabilises this hole.

Zankaze
October 3rd, 2011, 04:06 PM
You're right. Sorry, my last play of Heaven's Feel is a bit too old.

Apple
October 3rd, 2011, 04:08 PM
because there's the "what kind of wish can be fulfilled depends on how many Servants are killed.

So, Shirou potentially had the option for a better wish than Kiritsugu would have? (7 vs. 6)

Tsukishiro
October 3rd, 2011, 04:11 PM
so, why tokiomy and the einzberg want it?

I think tokiomi only want to reach the grail
But the einzbergs want it to fix their own error, avenger?

and, the story about make wish wasnt a lie? it was only to attract new magus to the ritual

Zankaze
October 3rd, 2011, 04:12 PM
So, Shirou potentially had the option for a better wish than Kiritsugu would have? (7 vs. 6)

But the Grail do not fullfill wishes anymore (It only destroys everything) after being corrupted by avenger in the third grail war, am I right?

For Tokiomi, it is also a pride issue, I think.

Arashi_Leonhart
October 3rd, 2011, 04:13 PM
so, why tokiomy and the einzberg want it?

I think tokiomi only want to reach the grail
But the einzbergs want it to fix their own error, avenger?

Tokiomi and the Tohsaka family previously all want to reach Akasha as per the original purpose. Einzberns originally wanted to reproduce Third Magic, but now they just wanna ease their pride and win, since they've bowed out early on beforehand.


the story about make wish wasnt a lie? it was only to attract new magus to the ritual

Grail produces tons of mana as byproduct as previously stated. It isn't really a wish so much as "endless mana gives magi ability to do almost anything."

Cruor
October 3rd, 2011, 04:13 PM
Einzbern's wants to regain the Third Magic (soul transportation).

Tokiomi wants it to reach Akasha just because.

Apple
October 3rd, 2011, 04:14 PM
Tokiomi wants to reach the root of all things (Akasha). Iris wants to give Kiritsugu whatever he wants, while the rest of the Einzberns also wanted to reach Akasha originally.

EDIT: Sniped

food
October 3rd, 2011, 04:14 PM
so, why tokiomy and the einzberg want it?

I think tokiomi only want to reach the grail
But the einzbergs want it to fix their own error, avenger?

and, the story about make wish wasnt a lie? it was only to attract new magus to the ritual
The Einzberns are not that nice.

They want to recover their lost True Magic, at ALL COST. There's no reason for them not to know the Grail is "off" after the Third War, but they still forged ahead.

ChronoReverse
October 3rd, 2011, 04:15 PM
The souls of Heroic Spirits are not actually consumed. They are leased so the power of their return to Akasha can punch the hole from this World to Akasha. It's a bit unclear if this force directly punches the hole, or if the force is harnessed and the Grail punches the hole (I think it may be the later, because there's the "what kind of wish can be fulfilled depends on how many Servants are killed"). Regardless, the souls are allowed to return, and the hole is punched in the process. The Greater Grail then stabilises this hole.

I've always thought that when the heroic spirits return to Akasha, it's the route that they take that the grail ritual was supposed to fix (in place).

But it just occurred to me that these heroic spirits are supposed to be a copy of the original that stays at the throne of heroes. What exactly is returning here?


Also, didn't the grail actually grant wishes if you properly fill it? IIRC, 5 spirits is enough to activate it and provide nigh unlimited mana. Whereas 6 can even grant wishes. Meanwhile, if you collect all 7 (probably by being the winner and then sneakily telling your servant to kill himself), you punch a hole right to Akasha.

Mcjon01
October 3rd, 2011, 04:17 PM
Tokiomi wanted it solely to reach Akasha, since that's what magi are all ultimately seeking. Or maybe the Tohsakas just wanted to reach Akasha so they could cheat on their homework from Zelretch.

SeiKeo
October 3rd, 2011, 04:18 PM
Or maybe the Tohsakas just wanted to reach Akasha so they could cheat on their homework from Zelretch.

Wouldn't that be like going to grad school to do your Bio 101?

Arashi_Leonhart
October 3rd, 2011, 04:20 PM
Wouldn't that be like going to grad school to do your Bio 101?

DON'T JUDGE ME

ChronoReverse
October 3rd, 2011, 04:20 PM
Wouldn't that be like going to grad school to do your Bio 101?

Except your buddies did all the work and you really just have to provide a venue for a poker game, winner takes all (degrees).

Tobias
October 3rd, 2011, 04:21 PM
But it just occurred to me that these heroic spirits are supposed to be a copy of the original that stays at the throne of heroes. What exactly is returning here?

good question.

Knight of Rider
October 3rd, 2011, 04:24 PM
The Record? The "books" Archer talks about? Or was that just for CGs?

Apple
October 3rd, 2011, 04:24 PM
Maybe it's just a retcon Nasu forgot to omit, Tobias.

Zankaze
October 3rd, 2011, 04:26 PM
Maybe the "experience" they got. What they have seen, their memories...

Apple
October 3rd, 2011, 04:28 PM
Saber presents a problem with that, doesn't she?

food
October 3rd, 2011, 04:28 PM
Something has to return I guess, otherwise where are they going to get their "books" in the Throne of Heroes.

Tobias
October 3rd, 2011, 04:30 PM
wasnt there something about how archer probably wouldnt even remember the crap that occured in the war? my memory is kind of foggy. also, what happens with saber and/or alter?

Zankaze
October 3rd, 2011, 04:31 PM
Saber presents a problem with that, doesn't she?

Saber don't dwell originally in the Throne of heroes. She must get the grail to achieve her transformation to be an Eirei. That is why she cannot turn into spirit form.
She will stay under that tree after the Battle of Camlann as long as she don't get the Grail.

Mcjon01
October 3rd, 2011, 04:35 PM
Wouldn't that be like going to grad school to do your Bio 101?

I consider it more like looking up the answer key online to see everything worked out step by step, after generations of your family had lived and died trying to solve the first step.

And then pretending that you figured it out yourself.

food
October 3rd, 2011, 04:35 PM
wasnt there something about how archer probably wouldnt even remember the crap that occured in the war? my memory is kind of foggy. also, what happens with saber and/or alter?

He won't remember he made peace with his ideal.

The "book" is not actual experience, so no emo stuff. I guess it would be something like this:

"Summon #534265354214: Stabbed by Emiya Shirou, impaled by Gilgamesh, and then died."

Knight of Rider
October 3rd, 2011, 04:35 PM
wasnt there something about how archer probably wouldnt even remember the crap that occured in the war? my memory is kind of foggy. also, what happens with saber and/or alter?
Archer wouldn't "remember", but he could read it. If he would find the right "book", which could be difficult with probably infinite such "books" beeing there, as the throne is timeless...

Apple
October 3rd, 2011, 04:36 PM
Saber don't dwell originally in the Throne of heroes. She must get the grail to achieve her transformation to be an Eirei. That is why she cannot turn into spirit form.
She will stay under that tree after the Battle of Camlann as long as she don't get the Grail.

Yes, and that's why she keeps her memories, so there would be no memories to 'return to Akasha'.

Zankaze
October 3rd, 2011, 04:37 PM
He won't remember he made peace with his ideal.

It's quite a sad point of view. Let me live in my perfect dream, OK?:neco_arc:

Knight of Rider
October 3rd, 2011, 04:37 PM
Yes, and that's why she keeps her memories, so there would be no memories to 'return to Akasha'.
Yes, so Sabers the exception?! What's the problem?

Mcjon01
October 3rd, 2011, 04:40 PM
He won't remember he made peace with his ideal.

The "book" is not actual experience, so no emo stuff. I guess it would be something like this:

"Summon #534265354214: Stabbed by Emiya Shirou, impaled by Gilgamesh, and then died."

I don't see why it couldn't include that stuff. The record could include every little thing Archer thought and felt, but it wouldn't translate into an experience for the real Archer because in the end he's still just reading a report of what happened.

Apple
October 3rd, 2011, 04:40 PM
@Rider
That's exactly what I was clarifying. Is Saber the exception or not? Can't Akasha duplicate the memories anyway?

If so, what is the point of the memories 'returning' to Akasha if it can just replicate every memory that took place in the war(s)?

And if it can't, then doesn't that mean that Akasha isn't as omnipotent as it seems?

Zankaze
October 3rd, 2011, 04:42 PM
Saber is a special case.
Well, she did a pact with the world, if my memories are correct. As long as she don't get the Grail and fix her failure (the death of her kingdom) she won't become an eirei.

Knight of Rider
October 3rd, 2011, 04:45 PM
I think the problem with Saber is that her soul is not yet in the throne of heroes, so the grail grabs it's copy from right before her death. So instead of beeing stored in "books" the memories are sent back to her original body/soul before death.

With actual Heroic Spirits this is not possible, since they are already in the throne, stored as a perfect entity and excluded from changes of the recorded soul. So the memories are stored as "books".

Mcjon01
October 3rd, 2011, 04:46 PM
Maybe because of its timeless nature Saber's soul is using Akasha as a hyperspace portal between the past and the present, so even though she doesn't go back to the throne she gets routed through the right place anyway?

i dunno lol

Zankaze
October 3rd, 2011, 04:48 PM
Well, not Akasha but her contract with the earth, I think. Anyway, it's nearly that.

Tobias
October 3rd, 2011, 04:48 PM
I wonder what happens when alter slams home.

Apple
October 3rd, 2011, 04:51 PM
So, do her memories get returned to Akasha as Zankaze suggested?

Tobias
October 3rd, 2011, 04:52 PM
she remembers what happened in the 4th war, so something is getting back to her.

Knight of Rider
October 3rd, 2011, 04:55 PM
So, do her memories get returned to Akasha as Zankaze suggested?
Like I said I think they are send back to her original body/soul befor her death, not to Akasha.

She is an exception.

Lianru
October 3rd, 2011, 04:56 PM
^Correct, I think.

Apple
October 3rd, 2011, 04:57 PM
So, does Akasha have records of her memories?

Tobias
October 3rd, 2011, 04:57 PM
akasha has records of everything.

Knight of Rider
October 3rd, 2011, 04:57 PM
Yes, Akasha has records of EVERYTHING!

Edit: Akasha has/had even a record of me getting sniped! >_<

Optimus
October 3rd, 2011, 04:59 PM
...Even of Taiga's three sizes?

Tobias, are you up for a 6th Heaven's Feel?

Apple
October 3rd, 2011, 04:59 PM
Then if Akasha has records of everything, how is it getting the records of her memories?

Knight of Rider
October 3rd, 2011, 05:01 PM
Sorry, I don't get the question?!

Zankaze
October 3rd, 2011, 05:04 PM
Then if Akasha has records of everything, how is it getting the records of her memories?

Because it's Akasha:neco_arc: (the ultimate answer when you don't know)

Apple
October 3rd, 2011, 05:06 PM
If they're there, they had to get there somehow.

The scenario implies

Normal servants die = memory returned to Akasha = Akasha gets records
Servant Saber dies, Arturia goes back to the tree = memory not returned to Akasha = Akasha doesn't get records

Basically, it produces a loophole in the idea that Akasha has records of everything.

Tobias
October 3rd, 2011, 05:07 PM
...Even of Taiga's three sizes?

Tobias, are you up for a 6th Heaven's Feel?

http://waverlyandwaverly.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/challenge-accepted.jpg?w=300&h=225

Zankaze
October 3rd, 2011, 05:09 PM
You're right, IMO, but I don't have the answer. The Nasuverse is full of unsolvable questions.

food
October 3rd, 2011, 05:09 PM
If they're there, they had to get there somehow.

The scenario implies

Normal servants die = memory returned to Akasha = Akasha gets records
Servant Saber dies, Arturia goes back to the tree = memory not returned to Akasha = Akasha doesn't get records

Basically, it produces a loophole in the idea that Akasha has records of everything.

No, Akasha still passively records everything.

The "memory return to Akasha" was just to make "books" for Heroic Spirits. More correctly, it should be "memory return to the Throne of Hero".

Knight of Rider
October 3rd, 2011, 05:09 PM
If they're there, they had to get there somehow.

The scenario implies

Normal servants die = memory returned to Akasha = Akasha gets records
Servant Saber dies, Arturia goes back to the tree = memory not returned to Akasha = Akasha doesn't get records

Basically, it produces a loophole in the idea that Akasha has records of everything.
You forget that Akasha is timeless, it doesn't "get" records, they are already there. Everything is already recorded in Akasha!

Apple
October 3rd, 2011, 05:10 PM
No, Akasha still passively records everything.

The "memory return to Akasha" was just to make "books" for Heroic Spirits. More correctly, it should be "memory return to the Throne of Hero".

If Akasha passively records everything, then there is no need for the memories to go back to Akasha because it already has them. It can just create the books from its observances.

Zankaze
October 3rd, 2011, 05:12 PM
The memories go back to the throne of heroes, not Akasha. I think it's for the eireis, because we assume Akasha already has it.
(And anyway, the throne of heroes is a Part of Akasha, isn't it?)

food
October 3rd, 2011, 05:13 PM
If Akasha passively records everything, then there is no need for the memories to go back to Akasha because it already has them. It can just create the books from its observances.

Lol, here's what happens when we start to build up from assumptions.

We don't know why the copied souls return, the "return memories" was just an assumption.

Knight of Rider
October 3rd, 2011, 05:14 PM
Yes the throne is only a lower instance of Akasha or something like that, IIRC.

Apple
October 3rd, 2011, 05:15 PM
So basically, the conjecture was wrong. Matter settled then?

HitokiriNanaya
October 3rd, 2011, 05:17 PM
wasnt there something about how archer probably wouldnt even remember the crap that occured in the war?

Would Archer remember cause he's a CG and not a HS?

Knight of Rider
October 3rd, 2011, 05:19 PM
It is explained in the game that GCs also only get the memories only stored in "books".

food
October 3rd, 2011, 05:19 PM
Would Archer remember cause he's a CG and not a HS?
CG is like a "subclass" of HS. Like a bulldog and a chiwawa are both dogs.


So basically, the conjecture was wrong. Matter settled then?
We are talking about it because it is not "settled", otherwise we would not be discussing it right? It is not settled until we find an answer for it, lol.

Apple
October 3rd, 2011, 05:22 PM
The matter is settled in the sense that the paradox is removed.

food
October 3rd, 2011, 05:25 PM
http://fsn.seorinwastaken.com/u/UBW14-11-09.jpg

From this, it seems you don't get "emo stuff". Just objective facts from the "books".

EDIT:
Well, this is working on the assumption that:

"Memory" = "Knowledge" + associated personal emotional components

Theocrass
October 3rd, 2011, 05:33 PM
Huh?

So the heroes get records?

But wait, I ... there are other grails, right?

Because IIRC, there have been a bunch of Holy Grail Wars.

food
October 3rd, 2011, 05:40 PM
The matter is settled in the sense that the paradox is removed.

Actually I just found confirmation. It is indeed the soul that returns to the original body (at the Throne). The original body then can extract information like books.

The conjecture was right.

EDIT:
P12 of CM3. It actually explicitly states the information from the Servants returns to the original body, in the form of a returning soul. Then the original body reads the information as "books".

Mcjon01
October 3rd, 2011, 05:51 PM
It might be easier to grasp if you think real-time as linear and Akasha-time as a point (i.e., timeless). So the real world interfaces with Akasha sequentially, sending over events and records as they happen, but from Akasha's perspective every point of contact with the real world across the entirety of its existence happens simultaneously, so everything that's there has always been there.

Probably a simplification, but it helps to visualize it.

ChronoReverse
October 3rd, 2011, 05:53 PM
It might be easier to grasp if you think real-time as linear and Akasha-time as a point (i.e., timeless). So the real world interfaces with Akasha sequentially, sending over events and records as they happen, but from Akasha's perspective every point of contact with the real world across the entirety of its existence happens simultaneously, so everything that's there has always been there.

Probably a simplification, but it helps to visualize it.

Isn't this exactly how Rin did it complete with diagrams in FSN?

Nerroth
October 3rd, 2011, 05:53 PM
One thing I wonder is whether or not there is any kind of connection (or perhaps some sort of cause-and-effect-ism) between the records as stored in Akasha to those in the Moon Cell Automaton.

For example, the Moon Cell would have ben around scanning the Earth at the time the various heroes were alive, so it would presumably set up its own files for each one (beside those for every other being it has recorded during its operation). But then, when the Fuyuki Grail Wars were taking place, it would have also been tracking the various summons, whuch themselves would have been drawn from the Throne of Heroes (which may or may not record the same hero/myth/thing in quite the same way as it does). Would its own records then be updated, or modofied, to incorporate this information; so that if someone were to use the Moon Cell record of a given hero to summon them, they would remember both their original lives on Earth and the experiences they went through in their various Throne-derived summons?

Or to go the other direction, could any of the information stored in the Throne itself be drawn from what records the MCA itself was storing?

(Assuming, of course, that a counterpart to the Moon Cell exists in other Nasuverse timelines, even if it has yet to be discovered in some of them.)

Mcjon01
October 3rd, 2011, 05:54 PM
I don't remember, maybe?

food
October 3rd, 2011, 05:59 PM
One thing I wonder is whether or not there is any kind of connection (or perhaps some sort of cause-and-effect-ism) between the records as stored in Akasha to those in the Moon Cell Automaton.

For example, the Moon Cell would have ben around scanning the Earth at the time the various heroes were alive, so it would presumably set up its own files for each one (beside those for every other being it has recorded during its operation). But then, when the Fuyuki Grail Wars were taking place, it would have also been tracking the various summons, whuch themselves would have been drawn from the Throne of Heroes (which may or may not record the same hero/myth/thing in quite the same way as it does). Would its own records then be updated, or modofied, to incorporate this information; so that if someone were to use the Moon Cell record of a given hero to summon them, they would remember both their original lives on Earth and the experiences they went through in their various Throne-derived summons?

Or to go the other direction, could any of the information stored in the Throne itself be drawn from what records the MCA itself was storing?

(Assuming, of course, that a counterpart to the Moon Cell exists in other Nasuverse timelines, even if it has yet to be discovered in some of them.)

Moon Cell works like a recorder, supposedly perfectly objective and accurate.

Heroic Spirit, on the other hand, is not always "true to history". A popular novel/tale/story can give Heroic Spirits a boost before being inducted into the Throne, the same thing won't happen with Moon Cell (since it does not care what people think).

Mcjon01
October 3rd, 2011, 06:01 PM
But then Vlad lol

food
October 3rd, 2011, 06:04 PM
The whole EXTRA is kind of a self-pwning lol, with contradictions.

What can you do?

EDIT:

Also, "real" Heroic Spirits are not supposed to be their original selves any more. They are "reconstituted souls" with humanity's wishes and stuff, thus all the "legends affect them" modifiers.

Mcjon01
October 3rd, 2011, 06:08 PM
I just assume that Round 4 is the "joke week" in both routes, and suddenly all the inconsistencies in the game evaporate.

Nerroth
October 3rd, 2011, 06:10 PM
On a semi-related topic, where did the layout/competition format/etc of the Se.Ra.Ph Grail War come from? Did someone deliberately set it up to echo the Fuyuki Grail Wars from the outset, or was there some sort of pre-existing structure somehow placed within the system already?

Mcjon01
October 3rd, 2011, 06:13 PM
Oh, found those explanations from Rin, too:

2938

2939

2940

TypeWannabe
October 3rd, 2011, 07:03 PM
About that whole "book" thing. Even a book can contain emotions. No, wait, that'll only confuse you. A book, doesn't matter fiction or non, can still convey the emotions the person was feeling. Experience is more than just what happened. If you don't take anything away from the event, you don't level up.

Also, the game itself says that the Servants are copied souls. Word is copy. The copy returns to the original. And don't even ask me for an exact source, because I don't remember where in the game I read that, and F/sn is too big for me to want to try.

Mike1984
October 3rd, 2011, 07:07 PM
Lol, here's what happens when we start to build up from assumptions.

We don't know why the copied souls return, the "return memories" was just an assumption.

Couldn't they just be "returning" in the same way as the soul of a dead person returns? To be wiped? After all, they're only copies....

food
October 3rd, 2011, 07:17 PM
Couldn't they just be "returning" in the same way as the soul of a dead person returns? To be wiped? After all, they're only copies....

They "return" in the sense that they are media that contain information.

The Throne doesn't want the copied soul back, it wants the data they contain.

EDIT:
It's like you have to take the harddisk with you or some type of physical medium if you want to move a large volume of data between two isolated computers.


About that whole "book" thing. Even a book can contain emotions. No, wait, that'll only confuse you. A book, doesn't matter fiction or non, can still convey the emotions the person was feeling. Experience is more than just what happened. If you don't take anything away from the event, you don't level up.

Also, the game itself says that the Servants are copied souls. Word is copy. The copy returns to the original. And don't even ask me for an exact source, because I don't remember where in the game I read that, and F/sn is too big for me to want to try.

It's "like books". The Throne does not literally print ethereal books for the Heroic Spirits.
The Heroic Spirits are fed boli of knowledge rather than their own memories. It probably has something to do with "lol we don't want to alter the original Heroic Spirit".

TypeWannabe
October 3rd, 2011, 07:36 PM
It's "like books". The Throne does not literally print ethereal books for the Heroic Spirits.
The Heroic Spirits are fed boli of knowledge rather than their own memories. It probably has something to do with "lol we don't want to alter the original Heroic Spirit".

Yes I know that. But the thing is, you cna also read something with "emotional" stuff in it and not feel anything.

Apple
October 4th, 2011, 05:28 AM
Actually I just found confirmation. It is indeed the soul that returns to the original body (at the Throne). The original body then can extract information like books.

The conjecture was right.

EDIT:
P12 of CM3. It actually explicitly states the information from the Servants returns to the original body, in the form of a returning soul. Then the original body reads the information as "books".

So Akasha now has two means of obtaining the same information from different sources (passive observation and soul returning), thereby wasting effort.

Now, why would Akasha do such a thing?

Mike1984
October 4th, 2011, 05:30 AM
Because the Throne of Heroes is not in Akasha.

There is one Throne per world, whereas there is only one Akasha in the entire multiverse.

Cubia - the - Anti-Existence
October 4th, 2011, 07:32 AM
So Akasha now has two means of obtaining the same information from different sources (passive observation and soul returning), thereby wasting effort.

Now, why would Akasha do such a thing?

Considering Akasha is the Spiral of Origin, Source of Everything and Nothing, Record of All Existence and a half a dozen other fancy titles its probably suppouse to be the other way arround. Akahsa does not obtain information it simply has it at the "begining".

It's less "Lancer gets trolled and Akasha watches to store the information" and more "Akasha says that version of Lancer will get trolled and thus that version of Lancer gets trolled".

Essentially if the nasuverse was a computer simulation Akasha would be the source code.

The "records" aren't copies of events but rather events are copies of the "records".

Apple
October 4th, 2011, 09:27 AM
All of a sudden this has become incredibly fatalistic.

Cubia - the - Anti-Existence
October 4th, 2011, 10:15 AM
All of a sudden this has become incredibly fatalistic.

Not really you have to remember the nasuverse is in a multiverse Akahsa just has a record for every possible combination of choices and events. In fate we see a few dozen universes were that Lancer was trolled.

If it can happen (logically or otherwise) Akasha would also have records of an infinite (orperhaps just uncountable) number of universes where Lancer kills Kotomine at the begining and then decides to get drunk and fights in the grail war while wasted.

You can still make choices it just "knows" every possible choice.

The headache comes in when you remember that being outside of time it should have records on multidimensional stuff and things like records of those that successfully entered Akasha.