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View Full Version : Something I've always wondered, is Gilgamesh truly the most broken servant? Could other mythological mortal heroes exceed his threat level as a Servant?



Artius
January 5th, 2012, 03:19 PM
Off the top of my head, I can't imagine anyone who would be more dangerous as an Archer than Gilgamesh or Iskander as Rider, with the exception of MAYBE Yi the Archer. Can anyone think of any other legendary heroes with a similar or greater potential level of threat when summoned as a Servant? I personally think Sun Wukong/Son Goku summoned as Lancer would make for a pretty interesting matchup for Gil. Even though true Divine Spirits can't be summoned, how would a mortal monkey who grew powerful enough to rampage through the heavens and make the gods themselves cower in fear stack up against servants like Gil or Heracles as a Lancer?

I3uster
January 5th, 2012, 03:24 PM
Go to the RP section. Look at some rejected profiles. Shit your pants.

Sherrinford
January 5th, 2012, 03:35 PM
In order, no, and... yes?

^ that's more because most people don't have a sense of restraint when making up servants. :P

Five_X
January 5th, 2012, 03:36 PM
If you want to get technical, Sun Wukong wouldn't be applicable for summoning; he's not a human "hero" in the regular sense, and more importantly, he's not dead.

LeopardBear
January 5th, 2012, 03:39 PM
Gil, King Arthur with Avalon, and a properly-classed Hercules are probably about as good as you're going to get with Servants.

Vahan
January 5th, 2012, 03:39 PM
If you want to get technical, Sun Wukong wouldn't be applicable for summoning; he's not a human "hero" in the regular sense, and more importantly, he's not dead.
If you think of it like that, neither is King Arthur, he's still on Avalon ;p

Sherrinford
January 5th, 2012, 03:41 PM
^^ Mahabharata.

Pretty much all of them. Perhaps with the exception of Bill Gedempoteranik, random extra #76, who appears for just two seconds.

Karna everyone?

LeopardBear
January 5th, 2012, 03:42 PM
Fame boost, those guys aren't worldwide.

Vahan
January 5th, 2012, 03:42 PM
Karna/Saint George from Fate/Apocrypha would probably give Gil a run for his Money

Five_X
January 5th, 2012, 03:43 PM
If you think of it like that, neither is King Arthur, he's still on Avalon ;p

Well, that's getting into something else entirely. Nasu's answered this, plus contract with the world lulz and stuff.

Vritra
January 5th, 2012, 03:43 PM
Isn't the Mahabharata and Ramayana Hugely Popular and important in India?

LeopardBear
January 5th, 2012, 03:43 PM
Karna/Saint George from Fate/Apocrypha would probably give Gil a run for his Money

Karna? Karna is gone. Son of the Sun God? Hi Enkidu. And George is done as soon as a anti-dragon NP comes out.

^ Sure. King Arthur and Herc are cornerstones of the entire western culture. That's quite a bit bigger.

Satehi
January 5th, 2012, 03:44 PM
Arjuna and Karna, with their nuke level attacks, Solomon, Nimrod, they should be around the level to tango with Gil.

Well, if you take Enkidu into account...

LeopardBear
January 5th, 2012, 03:45 PM
Also, Ea. Nobody else is going to have a NP that comes close to that.

Five_X
January 5th, 2012, 03:45 PM
George also has Divinity (albeit rather low), so...

terraablaze
January 5th, 2012, 03:45 PM
If you want to get technical, Sun Wukong wouldn't be applicable for summoning; he's not a human "hero" in the regular sense, and more importantly, he's not dead.

This is where I come in with my LEET knowledge of Chinese history and mention that he was modeled after an earlier hero (human trickster who stole peaches from the Queen Mother of the West) who was a maybe historical figure. Assuming he is still guaranteed to live his ridiculous life span he still won't be dead but eh, Galahad died in the Nasu version so who knows.

Vahan
January 5th, 2012, 03:46 PM
Jesus would trump Gil with sheer OP-ness

Sherrinford
January 5th, 2012, 03:46 PM
Fame boost, those guys aren't worldwide.

I'd say debatable.

Plus, consider that, differently from Zeus, Odin & Co., Shiva and the other Hinduism gods are most likely still alive, and their blessings and favors are therefore far more effective.

LeopardBear
January 5th, 2012, 03:46 PM
Jesus would trump Gil with sheer OP-ness

I think the Moon Cell is gonna have trouble summoning God.

^ I can without a doubt say that the Hindu epics are less known than the 12 Labors.

Five_X
January 5th, 2012, 03:47 PM
Galahad died in the original version, too, except Galahad is Galahad and probably wouldn't want to be a Servant. He's got the Holy Grail and no reason to come back to the world, really.

I3uster
January 5th, 2012, 03:48 PM
Who knows...

Mcjon01
January 5th, 2012, 03:49 PM
Karna's just a lousy faker mooching off Gil's golden armor and magical nukes.

Vahan
January 5th, 2012, 03:49 PM
Galahad died in the original version, too, except Galahad is Galahad and probably wouldn't want to be a Servant. He's got the Holy Grail and no reason to come back to the world, really.

Unless its to stop someone else from getting their hands on it

terraablaze
January 5th, 2012, 03:49 PM
@LeopardBear
population for Europe is about 700 million.
population of India is over 1 billion.

@Five
he died in battle in the Nasu version, no Grail for him.

Vahan
January 5th, 2012, 03:50 PM
The Indian Jesus?

LeopardBear
January 5th, 2012, 03:52 PM
@ Terra: Note that the west is not Europe.

Virtue
January 5th, 2012, 03:52 PM
Actually Solomon would be good... he's basically got Gate of Babylon but with HORDES OF INCREDIBLY OP DEMONS.

I3uster
January 5th, 2012, 03:53 PM
Not that the Bra...I am not going to even bother isn't also famous outside of India, maybe less so, but still, the fame should surpass Gils fame easily.

terraablaze
January 5th, 2012, 03:53 PM
@LeopardBear
Note that we already know Nasu doesn't give a rat's dropping about America, wouldn't surprise me if he thinks we know nothing of myth or our founding culture. Besides that still puts us behind India.

Vritra
January 5th, 2012, 03:53 PM
Krishna? man he would be OP.

Five_X
January 5th, 2012, 03:54 PM
Nasu's grasp on history and myth (and the Apocrypha writers' sense of balance) are both tenuous enough for something more powerful than Gilgamesh to be very possible.

Vahan
January 5th, 2012, 03:54 PM
Endiku <= Gilgamesh?

terraablaze
January 5th, 2012, 03:55 PM
Oh and if we include Canada, Australia, and all of Latin America (Central and South) we barely come out on top I think population wise. But that is being super generous since I can't say anything for the culture of Latin America.

Sherrinford
January 5th, 2012, 03:56 PM
^ I can without a doubt say that the Hindu epics are less known than the 12 Labors.

Again, debatable.

Maybe everyone knows some guy named Heracles did these so-called 12-labors, but who knows them in detail? Fame boost is a tricky subject to discuss. Plus, living gods, still actually worshipped...

MssrNeko
January 5th, 2012, 03:57 PM
I've always wanted to see the Yellow Emperor go head-to-head with Gil.

Vahan
January 5th, 2012, 03:57 PM
Heroes in the Nasuverse are a big enough arguement, lets not start on Gods ;p

terraablaze
January 5th, 2012, 03:57 PM
Yeah, I can see percentage wise more Indians knowing their legends then the combination of all the disparate Westerner.

Five_X
January 5th, 2012, 03:57 PM
Jesus' Second Coming is actually him being summoned in the Grail War!

petalferrous
January 5th, 2012, 03:58 PM
Isn't Gilgamesh not actually that famous compared to other myths because even though the Epic of Gilgamesh is about the oldest recorded story, the tablets were lost for ages and only rediscovered like 150 years ago? I might be talking out of my ass here.

terraablaze
January 5th, 2012, 03:59 PM
Also I think we might be discounting that Gilgamesh should really be receiving no fame boost outside of college students and graduates (and fans of certain Japanese video games).

Vahan
January 5th, 2012, 03:59 PM
Isn't Gilgamesh not actually that famous compared to other myths because even though the Epic of Gilgamesh is about the oldest recorded story, the tablets were lost for ages and only rediscovered like 150 years ago? I might be talking out of my ass here.

Which is why he probably loses a lot of power since he is not all that famous these days compared to Heroes like Arthur or Heralces

Vritra
January 5th, 2012, 04:00 PM
Something like that, I think but it's total age that matter (Total guess).

Sherrinford
January 5th, 2012, 04:01 PM
^ fame boost, age, actual power... everything adds up in the total count.


Isn't Gilgamesh not actually that famous compared to other myths because even though the Epic of Gilgamesh is about the oldest recorded story, the tablets were lost for ages and only rediscovered like 150 years ago? I might be talking out of my ass here.

Well, Gil compensates a bit by being the oldest hero.


Also I think we might be discounting that Gilgamesh should really be receiving no fame boost outside of college students and graduates (and fans of certain Japanese video games).

Hey, I knew about him before reading FSN.

But I've always been interested in mythology, so...

Five_X
January 5th, 2012, 04:02 PM
Age matters unless you're someone like Arturia or EMIYA or Li Shuwen.

Mcjon01
January 5th, 2012, 04:02 PM
Not that the Bra...I am not going to even bother isn't also famous outside of India, maybe less so, but still, the fame should surpass Gils fame easily.

I think people are ascribing too much importance to this "fame" thing. Since the concept of Gil going back all the way to Proto-Fate was as the "most obscure, oldest" hero that would be more powerful than the "strongest, most famous" hero Hercules.

Vahan
January 5th, 2012, 04:02 PM
Hey, I knew about him before reading FSN.

But I've always been interested in mythology, so...

So had I, but I was never sure where I had heard the name before until I found my copy of The Epic of Gilgamesh on my bookshelf and realised I had been reading it as 'Gilgamash'.

Five_X
January 5th, 2012, 04:03 PM
Ha, Nasu actually thought that Gilgamesh was obscure? lol

^ Well, hello, I'd like some GILGAMASH'd potatoes.

terraablaze
January 5th, 2012, 04:03 PM
I think people are ascribing too much importance to this "fame" thing. Since the concept of Gil going back all the way to Proto-Fate was as the "most obscure, oldest" hero that would be more powerful than the "strongest, most famous" hero Hercules.

Ooooh. That sounds interesting. Character Material?

^
probably one of the few obscure heroes he could get away with making super powerful. No one is going to buy some Russian peasant turned knight folk hero is going to beat Heracles.

Sherrinford
January 5th, 2012, 04:04 PM
So had I, but I was never sure where I had heard the name before until I found my copy of The Epic of Gilgamesh on my bookshelf and realised I had been reading it as 'Gilgamash'.

... although, to be honest, I knew about him because related to the Giant Flood myth. Don't remember if I already knew about Enkidu and the Bull of Heaven.

MssrNeko
January 5th, 2012, 04:05 PM
If Nasu wanted obscure, he could have looked at some Polynesian or Latin American heroes.

Five_X
January 5th, 2012, 04:05 PM
People would naturally want the Russian peasant to beat Heracles, though. Underdog rule, after all.

Vritra
January 5th, 2012, 04:06 PM
Well how well known a hero is seems rather hard to tell.

Vahan
January 5th, 2012, 04:07 PM
... although, to be honest, I knew about him only because related to the Giant Flood myth. Don't remember if I already knew about Enkidu and the Bull of Heaven.

I found it out after reading Snowcrash and doing lots of research into the Sumerian culture and stuff and eventually he turned up

Mcjon01
January 5th, 2012, 04:07 PM
Ooooh. That sounds interesting. Character Material?

^
probably one of the few obscure heroes he could get away with making super powerful. No one is going to buy some Russian peasant turned knight folk hero is going to beat Heracles.

Yes and yes. He had come up with Hercules first, I guess, then wanted to use a hero that was old and not super-famous. He had a few candidates in mind, but settled on Gilgamesh because he liked the name and the stories about him were interesting and made him out to be pretty OP which is what he was shooting for.

terraablaze
January 5th, 2012, 04:10 PM
If Karna was another candidate I guess the name won him over. Though Gilgamesh bitchslapping Ishtar with a piece of the Bull of Heaven was pretty great.

Five_X
January 5th, 2012, 04:11 PM
Well, I doubt Nasu would've wanted to use a really obscure old hero. There are a few of those, but they're just so obscure that most people would be like, "Wha?"

Mcjon01
January 5th, 2012, 04:12 PM
Specifically, he thought the name itself sounded strong so he went with it. Nasu so shallow.

Vahan
January 5th, 2012, 04:12 PM
If Karna was another candidate I guess the name won him over. Though Gilgamesh bitchslapping Ishtar with a piece of the Bull of Heaven was pretty great.

Pretty much the ultimate way to turn down a Woman's advances

Five_X
January 5th, 2012, 04:15 PM
I'm an LotR nut, so before F/SN I would always think of Gil-galad when I heard "Gilgamesh," even though I knew who the latter was. Gave me a funny picture oft he guy.

Vahan
January 5th, 2012, 04:17 PM
I'm an LotR nut, so before F/SN I would always think of Gil-galad when I heard "Gilgamesh," even though I knew who the latter was. Gave me a funny picture oft he guy.

.......... wow, never thought of that before

ratstsrub
January 5th, 2012, 04:22 PM
Holy-long-title-batman!

Cruor
January 5th, 2012, 05:51 PM
Did Karna ever actually do any of the nuke attacks in legend? I thought most of the legends doing that was of King Rama (who's believed to be Vishnu [one of the three Supreme Gods] in human form).

Edit: So yeah, now we have to question whether or not the nuke attack was a function of the weapon or a recreation of legend. Because if its the latter Nasu was hyping the weapon up while ignoring it could only do that with some other person.

Sherrinford
January 5th, 2012, 06:11 PM
Brahamastra is thought to be very similar to a nuke. The description of what happens when you unleash Brahamastra sound really close to the effects of atomic detonation. That's not something Nasu made up.

Vahan
January 5th, 2012, 06:33 PM
If I recall correctly, Brahmastra was one of the Astra's which Karna MIGHT have attempted to use against his Brother, but then he never got round to using it becuase of the Curse that got put on him.

Cruor
January 5th, 2012, 06:34 PM
Yeah, I know that. But sometimes it just seems to be an unblockable attack that can kill anything and then there's Rama who could destroy the entire world's ocean with it and kill an immortal Demon God. Rama was the one who made it famous. From what I remember of Karna, however, he never used it because he was cursed and forgot how to invoke Brahmastra.

^Snipe'd

Vahan
January 5th, 2012, 06:36 PM
Do remember that those aren't Karna's only weapons, he also probably has a couple of other Astra's which aren't listed as Noble Phantasms, some magical bow with a cool name and also a magical Chariot, so either way he's still Badass ;p

Sherrinford
January 5th, 2012, 06:38 PM
he also probably has a couple of other Astra's which aren't listed as Noble Phantasms, some magical bow with a cool name and also a magical Chariot, so either way he's still Badass ;p

He has. At least three-four other astras I don't remember on top of my head right now (back when F/A infos came up, I did some quick research on him).

celsius
January 5th, 2012, 06:38 PM
Isn't the reason Gilgamesh is so strong because of the sheer number of Noble Phantasms he possesses? If Karna pulls a nuke on him, who's to say that Gil can't just pull out an anti-nuke shield or something? Theoretically, he has a counter for every single Noble Phantasm ever. Or so I discerned, anyway.

LeopardBear
January 5th, 2012, 06:39 PM
Isn't the reason Gilgamesh is so strong because of the sheer number of Noble Phantasms he possesses? If Karna pulls a nuke on him, who's to say that Gil can't just pull out an anti-nuke shield or something? Theoretically, he has a counter for every single Noble Phantasm ever. Or so I discerned, anyway.

Pull out Sumerian Nukes, counter-nuke. Nasulogic.

Vahan
January 5th, 2012, 06:40 PM
I'm not quite sure how I like him. I like him as a Lancer, becuase they are Badass. I like him as a Rider becuase he's like the bastard son of Iskander and Gilgamesh, and I like him as an Archer because ... well the guy is just absolutely badass, if I recall correctly, the guy was firing arrows at a chariot that had 'the weight of the universe' inside it and STILL managed to rock it .... nothing is more cool then THAT!

Five_X
January 5th, 2012, 06:41 PM
Older nukes are better, duh.

So the Tsar Bomb can be completely wiped away by Little Boy.

Sherrinford
January 5th, 2012, 06:44 PM
But sometimes it just seems to be an unblockable attack that can kill anything and then there's Rama who could destroy the entire world's ocean with it and kill an immortal Demon God. Rama was the one who made it famous. From what I remember of Karna, however, he never used it because he was cursed.

And Brahamastra is not even the strongest. Or better, it is, but lol there are other astras-that-aren't-exactly-that-powerful-but-they-are-nonethless.

Karna never used it against Arjuna because damncurses, but that shouldn't a problem if the opponent is not Arjuna.


if I recall correctly, the guy was firing arrows at a chariot that had 'the weight of the universe' inside it and STILL managed to rock it .... nothing is more cool then THAT!

Yeah, something like that. Indian epic is as epic as you could get, to the point it becomes a bit... ridicoulous, if you can say that of an Epic Poem.

Mcjon01
January 5th, 2012, 06:44 PM
Vimana does have those optional machine gun and nuclear warhead attachments, if he'd bother to pull them out of his vault and use them. :p


Yeah, something like that. Indian epic is as epic as you could get, to the point it becomes a bit... ridicoulous, if you can say that of an Epic Poem.

The thing is, as awesome as the Indian stuff is, in Mushroomland they got all their cool toys from ancient Babylon. Uruk. Whatever, Gil had them.

giorno
January 5th, 2012, 06:49 PM
hey just a thought, how do you think Genghis Khan would fare as a servant?

celsius
January 5th, 2012, 06:54 PM
hey just a thought, how do you think Genghis Khan would fare as a servant?
That depends on what Noble Phantasms he'd have, I guess.

food
January 5th, 2012, 06:55 PM
Something like the King's Army? Except with cavalries?

TypeWannabe
January 5th, 2012, 07:06 PM
Genghis Khan's Noble Phantasm would be reenacting the Kngihts of the Round summon from FFVII, but instead of armor and swords and stuff it would be Mongolians.

Five_X
January 5th, 2012, 07:10 PM
His true NP would be raping all of the female Servants and Masters, getting them pregnant and forcing them into his harem. 'Cause that's the Mongolian way, yo.

The Golden Horde is not something to wish lightly on a city.

Cruor
January 5th, 2012, 07:10 PM
Do remember that those aren't Karna's only weapons, he also probably has a couple of other Astra's which aren't listed as Noble Phantasms, some magical bow with a cool name and also a magical Chariot, so either way he's still Badass ;p

I know but I was questioning whether the nuclear bomb power might not be one of Karna's Brahmastra when Rama (Vishnu) was the only one who could/did.


Isn't the reason Gilgamesh is so strong because of the sheer number of Noble Phantasms he possesses? If Karna pulls a nuke on him, who's to say that Gil can't just pull out an anti-nuke shield or something? Theoretically, he has a counter for every single Noble Phantasm ever. Or so I discerned, anyway.

Well, the thing is all of the world destroying weapons in Hinduism were created by Gods.


ANYWAY MOST OP WOULD BE INDRAJIT WHO HAD THE BRAHMASTRA, THE PASHUPATASTRA, AND THE VAISHNAVASTRA THE MOST OP WEAPONS CREATED BY THE 3 SUPREME GODS BY THE TIME HE WAS A KID AND WAS GIVEN THE ABILITY TO NEVER LOSE A BATTLE BY THE GODS AS LONG AS HE PRAYED (hint: as long as he prayed)

Mcjon01
January 5th, 2012, 07:20 PM
Well, the thing is all of the world destroying weapons in Hinduism were created by Gods.

Like, 95% of everything that shows up in myths was created by gods, but ol' Gil still has their prototypes.

Vahan
January 5th, 2012, 07:21 PM
Prototype Avalon FTW?

Mellon
January 5th, 2012, 07:23 PM
Well, the thing is all of the world destroying weapons in Hinduism were created by Gods.


It does not stop Gil having the Vajra.

ChronoReverse
January 5th, 2012, 07:24 PM
From a quick Google, it seems the Ramayana is only about 500BC while the Epic of Gilgamesh is at least 1000BC. Older defeats the younger?

@Cruor

Why was Lakshmana able to tank all three of "BRAHMASTRA, THE PASHUPATASTRA, AND THE VAISHNAVASTRA THE MOST OP WEAPONS CREATED BY THE 3 SUPREME GODS" anyway?

Vahan
January 5th, 2012, 07:26 PM
What about Nimrod? surely he trumps Gilgamesh?

NOTE TO SELF: Make Servant Profile for Nimrod

Mcjon01
January 5th, 2012, 07:26 PM
Prototype Avalon FTW?

Nope, made by the planet.


What about Nimrod? surely he trumps Gilgamesh?

Again. Older defeats the younger.

petalferrous
January 5th, 2012, 07:27 PM
From a quick Google, it seems the Ramayana is only about 500BC while the Epic of Gilgamesh is at least 1000BC. Older defeats the younger?
The Epic of Gilgamesh is the oldest known work of literature (well there are some Egyptian love poems that predate it but they aren't actually very good) so if it's old you're looking for, Gil is the man. I thought that was a pretty cool idea when I found out his identity.

Cruor
January 5th, 2012, 07:27 PM
Like, 95% of everything that shows up in myths was created by gods, but ol' Gil still has their prototypes.

No most of the ones in western mythology were created by weird shit like Dwarves and whatnot. And some of these 'weapons' are in some legends not even physical objects but eyes/words/and the MIND. Not to mention one of the strongest weapons in Hindu myth is a sword rain that gets stronger if you feel resistance. Brahmastra is actually like this too. Even though Rama was the one who used it famously, Indrajit, someone in the army he was fighting against also was a user of Brahmastra. Hindu myth is crazy.

Five_X
January 5th, 2012, 07:29 PM
Again. Older defeats the younger.

Eh, not always. Not in terms of Servants, anyhow.

Sherrinford
January 5th, 2012, 07:29 PM
Not to mention one of the strongest weapons in Hindu myth is a sword rain that gets stronger if you feel resistance.

Gate of Babylon?

:3

Mcjon01
January 5th, 2012, 07:30 PM
Eh, not always. Not in terms of Servants, anyhow.

I was being snarky because his implication was that Nimrod might be able to beat Gilgamesh using that same rule. Implying that Nimrod is older than Gilgamesh. Implying that he wasn't retroactively placed into Sumerian history after the fact. Implying.

>Implying

Five_X
January 5th, 2012, 07:30 PM
Nimrod's been overdone anyhow.

Sherrinford
January 5th, 2012, 07:32 PM
Ah, forgot this.


Even though Rama was the one who used it famously, Indrajit, someone in the army he was fighting against also was a user of Brahmastra. Hindu myth is crazy.

That's because Astras are more like spells than actual weapons IMO. They need mantras and an accurate knowledge of how they work, otherwise they don't work or they could also possibly backfire IIRC.

ChronoReverse
January 5th, 2012, 07:36 PM
Some of them could only be used once too right? Lucky they haven't ended the world as they're claimed to be capable of.

Sherrinford
January 5th, 2012, 07:39 PM
The only one that can be used only once is Vasavi Shakti, IIRC. But yes, it's not like the others don't have restrictions.


Lucky they haven't ended the world as they're claimed to be capable of.

Yep. Exaggerations, eh-eh! :P

Cruor
January 5th, 2012, 07:45 PM
Why was Lakshmana able to tank all three of "BRAHMASTRA, THE PASHUPATASTRA, AND THE VAISHNAVASTRA THE MOST OP WEAPONS CREATED BY THE 3 SUPREME GODS" anyway?

Well, I think Indrajit's invincibility in battle ability was nullified when he was attacked in the Temple as he never prayed again after that but it seems Lakshamana had the favor of all three Gods and all the Gods in existence was all about screwing Ravana and Indrajit by that point.

Pretty much when Indrajit started up his incantation Lakshamana either started up his own incantation and they both unleashed the same weapon on each other which cancelled each other out OR Lakshmana takes over Indrajit's weapon and nullifies it. Indrajit then goes on thinking that Lahshamana may be the Lord Superior or something.

Strife212
January 5th, 2012, 09:28 PM
What is the justification behind Durendal being in GoB, when Durendals story is that it was given by an Angel to Roland. If that can be in it why not Excalibur.

Mcjon01
January 5th, 2012, 09:32 PM
Planets > Gods

Aladar
January 5th, 2012, 09:37 PM
Wouldn't summoning Cain/Abel/Lilith trump Gil even by age?

Even better, as strange fake showed, why not summon a conceptual character like Death? That's a nearly guaranteed win if you can reign it in.

food
January 5th, 2012, 09:37 PM
What is the justification behind Durendal being in GoB, when Durendals story is that it was given by an Angel to Roland. If that can be in it why not Excalibur.

Apparently in Nasuverse Faeries make the best wares.

Angels just pick up stuff off the ground and hand them out as favours.



Wouldn't summoning Cain/Abel/Lilith trump Gil even by age?

Even better, as strange fake showed, why not summon a conceptual character like Death? That's a nearly guaranteed win if you can reign it in.

There's a reason Strange Fake is not canon.

And I don't think they summoned Death in there. Which one do you mean? Rider? Berserker?

I3uster
January 5th, 2012, 09:40 PM
Wouldn't summoning Cain/Abel/Lilith trump Gil even by age?

Even better, as strange fake showed, why not summon a conceptual character like Death? That's a nearly guaranteed win if you can reign it in.
That's why I think that age is not that important either.
Summoning Abel gets you the worlds best shepherd. He was no "hero".


There's a reason Strange Fake is not canon.

And I don't think they summoned Death in there. Which one do you mean? Rider? Berserker?
Rider. But Rider was the plague IIRC?

Aladar
January 5th, 2012, 09:40 PM
There's a reason Strange Fake is not canon.

But say, if you use a piece of paper describing the Apocalypse Rider Death, for example, something similar ought to be pulled out, assuming you're being backed up by a tainted Grail which allows for the summoning of evil characters.

Virtue
January 5th, 2012, 09:41 PM
What is the justification behind Durendal being in GoB, when Durendals story is that it was given by an Angel to Roland. If that can be in it why not Excalibur.

It alternatively is made by the same guy whom made most of the legendary Scandinavian weapons, same with Joyuese. So it's possible in Nasuverse they're not "Angelic".

Aladar
January 5th, 2012, 09:43 PM
That's why I think that age is not that important either.
Summoning Abel gets you the worlds best shepherd. He was no "hero".


Well, yeah. But summoning Lillith would get you perhaps the oldest possible Caster.

Mcjon01
January 5th, 2012, 09:43 PM
That's why I think that age is not that important either.
Summoning Abel gets you the worlds best shepherd. He was no "hero".

Word of God is that Gilgamesh is mankind's oldest hero anyway, so no matter who you suggest they're going to be younger than Gil in the Nasuverse. Plus I'm pretty sure that age of the legend is more important than the age of the characters in the legend, and Gil is older than Genesis.

TypeWannabe
January 5th, 2012, 09:43 PM
allows for the summoning of evil characters.

I wouldn't say Death is evil.

Aladar
January 5th, 2012, 09:45 PM
I wouldn't say Death is evil.

Technically it'd be True Neutral but an untainted Grail is supposed to only summon true heroes anyway.

TypeWannabe
January 5th, 2012, 09:47 PM
I wouldn't say Death isn't a hero.

food
January 5th, 2012, 09:47 PM
But say, if you use a piece of paper describing the Apocalypse Rider Death, for example, something similar ought to be pulled out, assuming you're being backed up by a tainted Grail which allows for the summoning of evil characters.

In order to summon someone, the Hero has to be in the Throne.

Heroic Spirits are human phenomenons. Ambiguous concepts like Death don't get turned into Heroic Spirits and inducted into the Throne. If the Grail can't find the Hero, then it will get you the next best thing (Wraiths).

The Grail won't get you the Horseman, it will probably get you a serial killer that killed a lot of people and has a nickname "Death", lol.

Apple
January 6th, 2012, 09:38 AM
Saint Nicholas maybe? You would get a massive fame boost just by the association with Santa Claus. Dude was also supposed to be capable of reading minds and resurrecting the dead.

mewarmo990
January 6th, 2012, 12:13 PM
Re: Mahabhrata...


Fame boost, those guys aren't worldwide.

Karna? Karna is gone. Son of the Sun God? Hi Enkidu. And George is done as soon as a anti-dragon NP comes out.

^ Sure. King Arthur and Herc are cornerstones of the entire western culture. That's quite a bit bigger.

Ethnocentric much?

King Arthur and Heracles aren't even close to worldwide. Unless you want to tell me "the Orient" doesn't count.

Gilgamesh is gone outside of school textbooks, too.

That said, Karna is strong but not completely OP. He's got curses, plus Enkidu would end it very quickly.

terraablaze
January 6th, 2012, 12:15 PM
The curses are kind of the whole reason he doesn't faceroll everyone forever. And yes Gilgamesh can still beat him but he has his god killing spear, that sounds like he is reaching past the ankles of Gilgamesh's OPness.

Technically even Sun Wukong has a debilitating weakness, though you would never know it from the way people talk.

mewarmo990
January 6th, 2012, 12:24 PM
The curses are kind of the whole reason he doesn't faceroll everyone forever. And yes Gilgamesh can still beat him but he has his god killing spear, that sounds like he is reaching past the ankles of Gilgamesh's OPness.

Technically even Sun Wukong has a debilitating weakness, though you would never know it from the way people talk.
Sun Wukong doesn't count anyway. Though it would be fun to see him get summoned.


Sun Wukong possesses an immense amount of strength; he is able to lift his 13,500 jīn (8,100 kg or 17,881 lbs) staff with ease. He is also superbly fast, able to travel 108,000 li (54,000 kilometers or 33,554 mi) in one somersault. Sun knows 72 transformations, which allows him to transform into various animals and objects; he has trouble, however, transforming into other people, because he is unable to complete the transformation of his tail. He is a skilled fighter, capable of holding his own against the best generals of heaven. Each of his hairs possesses magical properties, and is capable of transforming either into a clone of the Monkey King himself, or various weapons, animals, and other objects. He also knows spells that can command wind, part water, conjure protective circles against demons, and freeze humans, demons, and gods alike.


Sun Wukong later single-handedly defeated the Army of Heaven's 100,000 celestial warriors - each fight an equivalent of a cosmic embodiment, including all 28 constellations, four heavenly kings, and Nezha, the son of Li Jiang Jun who proved himself worthy - and proved himself equal to the best of Heaven's generals, Erlang Shen. Eventually, through the teamwork of Taoist and Buddhist forces, including the efforts from some of the greatest deities, Sun Wukong was captured. After several failed attempts at execution, Sun Wukong was locked into Lao Tzu's eight-way trigram cauldron to be distilled into an elixir by the most sacred and the most severe samadhi fires. After 49 days, the cauldron was opened and Sun Wukong jumped out, stronger than ever. He now had the ability to recognize evil in any form through his huǒyǎn-jīnjīng (火眼金睛) (lit. "fiery-eyes golden-gaze"), an eye condition that also gave him a weakness to smoke, and proceeded to destroy Heaven's remaining forces.

Not too hard to see why people consider him so OP, though a Servant-type wouldn't be as strong.

That headband is a serious weakness if you know the chant, though.

terraablaze
January 6th, 2012, 12:47 PM
Don't forget getting smoke in his eyes makes him useless/

Vahan
January 6th, 2012, 05:21 PM
Lol, he gets summoned by a Master that is a chain smoker!

Five_X
January 6th, 2012, 05:46 PM
Wish Fulfillment Sues: older than you'd think.

Twelveseal
January 6th, 2012, 05:52 PM
Oi...
You know, I don't think it's technically possible to have a Heroic Spirit stronger than Gil in the Canon anymore.
Didn't Nasu say at one point that there was only one Heroic Spirit that could beat Gil easily, and only three that could make him fight seriously?
If that's the case, then I think all those slots have been filled already.

terraablaze
January 6th, 2012, 05:58 PM
Oi...
You know, I don't think it's technically possible to have a Heroic Spirit stronger than Gil in the Canon anymore.
Didn't Nasu say at one point that there was only one Heroic Spirit that could beat Gil easily, and only three that could make him fight seriously?
If that's the case, then I think all those slots have been filled already.

I don't remember hearing anything of the sort.

Twelveseal
January 6th, 2012, 06:00 PM
I'm not sure where I heard it, to be honest, but it seems like it was an old source. It's been a long time since I've heard it. Possibly Character Material?

Neir
January 6th, 2012, 06:01 PM
Re: topic question

Yes.

food
January 6th, 2012, 06:06 PM
Oi...
You know, I don't think it's technically possible to have a Heroic Spirit stronger than Gil in the Canon anymore.
Didn't Nasu say at one point that there was only one Heroic Spirit that could beat Gil easily, and only three that could make him fight seriously?
If that's the case, then I think all those slots have been filled already.

Character Material says Gilgamesh prides himself in being invincible against Heroic Spirits, a "Slayer of Heroes".

Twelveseal
January 6th, 2012, 06:08 PM
Hmm... Wonder where I got that idea, then? Crap... Now I really wanna know. It was probably something somebody made up.

Mcjon01
January 6th, 2012, 06:13 PM
Character Material says Gilgamesh prides himself in being invincible against Heroic Spirits, a "Slayer of Heroes".

I just noticed that CM2 talks extensively about what really happened in that exchange between Sakura and Gilgamesh at the beginning of the game, and then somebody asked about exactly what they already answered there in the Q&A for CM3. Japanese fans, why are you so useless?

Twelveseal
January 6th, 2012, 06:16 PM
It's probably more a matter of them not realizing it was answered. After all, Nasu's responses are hidden all through his works like easter eggs.

Plus, Nasu likes to troll, so he probably just printed the repeats for the lulz.

Mcjon01
January 6th, 2012, 06:21 PM
Nasu's responses are hidden all through his works like easter eggs.

It's in its own subsection titled "Sakura and Gilgamesh". :p

Tobias
January 6th, 2012, 06:25 PM
hey nasu, we have a few spots left to fill!

well what are our options?

lets see, one section detailing exact servant speed limits for both normal combat and noble phantasm usage, a status update, with photos, on the tsukihime remake, an answer to how aoko utilises the 5th magic, and this one about sakura and gilgamesh.

oooh! go with sakura and gil, I bet they will love that!

done and done sir, excellent choice!

Twelveseal
January 6th, 2012, 06:29 PM
Indeed. Isn't Sakura's popularity relatively low in Japan?

celsius
January 6th, 2012, 06:32 PM
Probably, it's because "yamato nadeshiko" types like her aren't as popular in Japan anymore. Saber and Tohsaka's archetypes are generally considerably more popular nowadays, I think.

TypeWannabe
January 6th, 2012, 06:35 PM
Japan fetishes and their tsunderes man.

Twelveseal
January 6th, 2012, 06:36 PM
If that's the case, then it really seems like a troll. Give old info about a character that's relatively unpopular with the fans asking the questions, or give something else? Yeah...

Tobias
January 6th, 2012, 06:36 PM
the japanese have better taste then I thought they did!

Twelveseal
January 6th, 2012, 06:37 PM
It amuses me that you say this right after getting back from Japan. He speaks from experience now. :D

TypeWannabe
January 6th, 2012, 06:39 PM
y u no rikey Sakura?

Twelveseal
January 6th, 2012, 06:40 PM
I actually do like her. But she doesn't seem to be that popular.

Milbunk
January 6th, 2012, 06:40 PM
Sakura is the best heroine and has the best route in my opinion. (Just thought I should mention that.)

Tobias
January 6th, 2012, 06:41 PM
reminds me of the poster we walked by in akiba advertising the type moon anime revolving around the "4th hory grail war"


we all laffed

TypeWannabe
January 6th, 2012, 06:51 PM
...I'd see a HGW with whores participating instead of Masters and Servants. Or, well, they could be a different kind of "Master + Servant"...

Twelveseal
January 6th, 2012, 06:53 PM
And we now have a name for the live action porn version of... Something related to Fate. I don't want to think about it being Zero, though. That's... Just... Too many guys.
Read: Poor Iri and Maiya.

TypeWannabe
January 6th, 2012, 07:03 PM
It would go something like "Fate/stay-the-night-at-my-place,-wait,-how-much-do-you-charge-holy-crap-that's-ridiculous-eh-I'm-just-horny-enough-to-go-along-with-it." They collect souls by sucking them out of men's penises after orgasm, but the Grail is actually tainted with all the STD's in the world and filling it will automatically infect 6 billion people with them and cause the human race to die out.

Twelveseal
January 6th, 2012, 07:05 PM
That's... Actually a relatively good porn plot. Well done, Type. This is where people laugh.

food
January 6th, 2012, 09:20 PM
It would go something like "Fate/stay-the-night-at-my-place,-wait,-how-much-do-you-charge-holy-crap-that's-ridiculous-eh-I'm-just-horny-enough-to-go-along-with-it." They collect souls by sucking them out of men's penises after orgasm, but the Grail is actually tainted with all the STD's in the world and filling it will automatically infect 6 billion people with them and cause the human race to die out.

Sabre managed to destroy the Grail, but the mud showered Kiritsugu.

Kiritsugu was actually slowly dying of AIDS.

Twelveseal
January 6th, 2012, 09:23 PM
Which is why he chose to adopt, and not bang Taiga.

food
January 6th, 2012, 09:32 PM
Sad, sad, unrequited love.

There seems to be one for every one of Nasu's work.

celsius
January 6th, 2012, 09:34 PM
Poor Issei...

food
January 6th, 2012, 09:35 PM
That fox Rin is just too hard to compete with...

Tobias
January 6th, 2012, 09:44 PM
So what was it coming out of holy Grail-kun's mouth in carnival phantasm?

food
January 6th, 2012, 09:56 PM
Hot glue.

Bolfotha
January 10th, 2012, 01:45 AM
You know.. it's possible that Giglamesh simply added things to his GoB collection after he was summoned

Take the Chinese spear for instance.. that wasn't produced until a few hundred years after his death, and the one wielded by Lu Bu didn't became famous NP until the 3 Kingdoms era

Arashi_Leonhart
January 10th, 2012, 01:49 AM
No, it was produced in his time, and only became known in China after the originals ended up in the hands of Chinese heroes much later on.

Bolfotha
January 10th, 2012, 01:51 AM
That can't be right because the houtengeki type spear was made during 1600 BC at the earliest

Epic of Gilgamesh was during 2000 BC

the timeline does not match

Mcjon01
January 10th, 2012, 01:52 AM
That's just how it is. He also wears full plate armor and has a flying throne that shoots nuclear missiles, what can you do?

Arashi_Leonhart
January 10th, 2012, 01:52 AM
Yeah and the crucifix sword wasn't made until after it was derived from the Anglo Saxon period viking swords in the 6th and 7th centuries. lolNasu.

Starman
January 10th, 2012, 01:53 AM
It's Gilgamesh, history bends to his will.

Bolfotha
January 10th, 2012, 01:57 AM
armor and throne a futuristic enough for me to accept that it might have been made during some bored God

but the houtengeki has a very pronounced Chinese cultural significance. It's a normal spear that became a Noble Phantasm. It was made by some random swordsmith.

it would be like seeing Gilgamesh pulling out a Tommy Gun from GoB

But as I've said, I think he simply added them to GoB after he was summoned. He had 10 years and A LOT of moneys, remember?

and if Carnival Phantasm is any indication, he does weird things when he is bored

ratstsrub
January 10th, 2012, 01:57 AM
Speaking of things that are lol:

Vampires that walk in the sun.

Vampires period.

Magic.

Time traveling emo.

Resurrecting the dead.

Faeries.

Etc...

Elyrin
January 10th, 2012, 01:58 AM
Not quite a tommygun, but he does have machine guns of some sort, IIRC?

Mcjon01
January 10th, 2012, 01:59 AM
Also on Vimana, yes.

Arashi_Leonhart
January 10th, 2012, 01:59 AM
Uh, "pronounced [insert culture here] significance" could be said about any number of the things he has. This is still Nasuverse, and the history is that Sumeria had all the originals and everything was derived from them.

^ God, why must we wait to see that....

Bolfotha
January 10th, 2012, 02:01 AM
well. then I guess in Nasuverse, Sumeria is some kind of ancient super advanced possibly alien colony

and everything that came after it is a ripoff of Sumerian culture

I wonder what ancient Sumerian eroge were like

Starman
January 10th, 2012, 02:03 AM
Gilgamesh doesn't have to make sense. He's a Sumerian king who's NP is named 'Gate of Babylon', Babylon being a civilization that gained prominence some 800 years after Gilgamesh's time. Don't worry about things too much.

Bolfotha
January 10th, 2012, 02:11 AM
I worry about it because I have a few fanfiction idea going around in my head

If I were to write that "Gilgamesh summoned Tetsujin 28, the progenitor of all Japanese super robots from the Gate of Babylon" I would like to be able to justify that

ratstsrub
January 10th, 2012, 02:17 AM
Duh, he summoned Tetsujin 01, the Original progenitor of all Japanese super robots from the Gate of Babylon".

Starman
January 10th, 2012, 02:23 AM
I don't think the problem lies in figuring out how to justify writing about Gilgamesh summoning Tetsujin 28, I think the problem lies in figuring out why you're writing such a thing in the first place! I kid, Gilgamesh piloting Gundam or something would be rad. I think you're looking at the 'prototype' thing the wrong way. From what I understand, it's not:

X has Giant Robot Man, but Gilgamesh has Giant Robot Man Prototype. Because then what if Y appeared and he had Giant Robot Man Prototype? Would Gilgamesh have Giant Robot Man Prototype Prototype? I think this is the wrong way of looking at things.

I think a better word to use than 'Prototype' is 'Archtype'. That is, remember how Excalibur is the sword in the stone? Well Gilgamesh had the other sword that was like this in his treasury. It's not like he had an early version of Excalibur itself, he had the original version of the sword in the stone archetype itself in his treasury.

Completely unrelated, but thinking about this filled my head with the idea of a Mao Zedong servant who literally has the cheap Chinese knockoff of everything. Enemy has Excalibur? No problem, Mao has the superior Z-Caliber 2000!

Arashi_Leonhart
January 10th, 2012, 02:24 AM
Also, not Excalibur in stone. Just saying.

Five_X
January 10th, 2012, 02:24 AM
Completely unrelated, but thinking about this filled my head with the idea of a Mao Zedong servant who literally has the cheap Chinese knockoff of everything. Enemy has Excalibur? No problem, Mao has the superior Z-Caliber 2000!

This amuses me.

ratstsrub
January 10th, 2012, 02:24 AM
Also, not Excalibur in stone. Just saying.In other words, to make this clear, Gilgamesh doesn't have the original Excalibur.

meevanhelot
January 10th, 2012, 07:21 AM
Fairies are the only ones who don't rip off Sumerians.

Erlkonig
January 10th, 2012, 08:49 AM
If Fairies are the ONLY ones, does that mean Gil has the original elephant?

ratstsrub
January 10th, 2012, 08:54 AM
Sorry, Gilgamesh's not a faker.

Only authentic materials allowed.

HitokiriNanaya
January 10th, 2012, 01:08 PM
If Fairies are the ONLY ones, does that mean Gil has the original elephant?

Whoa whoa whoa, back the fuck up.

Elephants are OP enough without one of them being owned by Gil.

Apple
January 10th, 2012, 02:24 PM
Completely unrelated, but thinking about this filled my head with the idea of a Mao Zedong servant who literally has the cheap Chinese knockoff of everything. Enemy has Excalibur? No problem, Mao has the superior Z-Caliber 2000!

They also explode without prior notice, as is the case with many Chinese appliances.

Archer copies without respect for intellectual property, his creations explode, his creations are inferior to the actual ones.... Archer is Mao Zedong in disguise? Lolololol

TypeWannabe
January 10th, 2012, 03:07 PM
*looks at above post*

*is part Chinese*

...I'm...not sure whether I should be offended or not.

Verg Avesta
January 10th, 2012, 05:28 PM
If Fairies are the ONLY ones, does that mean Gil has the original elephant? Elephant-Rain out of GoB?

Fingolfin
January 10th, 2012, 07:04 PM
I'm surprised no one mentioned Heroic Spirit! Dinosaurs yet.

Mcjon01
January 10th, 2012, 07:18 PM
Probably because Heroic Spirits are a purely human phenomenon, and also Alexander's horse.

terraablaze
January 10th, 2012, 07:23 PM
His horse is domesticated though. Human interaction and such. There is that one line from Rin that talks about humans, animals, and MACHINES becoming Heroic Spirits though.

Come Mcjon01 let us converse while the plebs can't see us.

Mcjon01
January 10th, 2012, 07:28 PM
She was probably only referring to talking animals and machines that want to become real boys.

terraablaze
January 10th, 2012, 07:58 PM
had to make biscuits, come back to discover the FSN best end thread has moved on to the next page despite my new found strength, this development has left me in despair.

Mcjon01
January 10th, 2012, 08:00 PM
You can still see all the latest replies if you go to the advanced post editor.

terraablaze
January 10th, 2012, 08:06 PM
McJon01 has restored my sight! Are you Jesus!?!

Mcjon01
January 10th, 2012, 08:09 PM
Yes.

Erlkonig
January 10th, 2012, 08:15 PM
Human interaction

HEROIC SPIRIT CARTHAGE ELEPHANT

HEROIC SPIRIT PERSIAN ELEPHANT

YOU CANNOT TAKE THE IMAGE OFF MY MIND NOW

Five_X
January 10th, 2012, 08:23 PM
No Indian elephants, Erl? That's where the Persians and Greeks got them from. The Carthaginians had their own source for easily trained elephants in North Africa.

Hannibal, in fact, had his own special elephant named Surus. She was apparently quite large, and a very hardy animal who lived through most (if not all, historians aren't sure) of Hannibal's campaign in Italy.

Apple
January 11th, 2012, 11:44 AM
*looks at above post*

*is part Chinese*

...I'm...not sure whether I should be offended or not.

You shouldn't, primarily because I am talking about the nation itself and not the ethnic group. Also, because it is true that they have a tendency to producing exploding things. When you have a nation managed like that there's bound to be shit happening. That doesn't necessarily mean that ethnic Chinese are going to be producing exploding goods as well. It has to do with the factory standards and social environment within that particular part of the world.

Fingolfin
January 11th, 2012, 12:24 PM
Probably because Heroic Spirits are a purely human phenomenon, and also Alexander's horse.

I can dream though, I can dream.

Hmm, Godzilla as a heroic spirit? I think that might work if he exists in the nasu-verse, somewhere in some alternate dimension where Kaiju exist. And technically he's a dinosaur; a mutated dinosaur with atomic fire breath, and kung-fu skills.

Also, a Heroic Spirit Honey Badger!

4246

No one is safe.

Five_X
January 11th, 2012, 01:34 PM
Godzilla would more likely be classified as a Phantasmal Beast.

terraablaze
January 11th, 2012, 01:47 PM
More like a Divine Beast thanks to the movies.

giorno
January 11th, 2012, 01:50 PM
Also, a Heroic Spirit Honey Badger!

honey badgers are pure evil incarnate, they cannot be heroic spirits!

Vritra
January 11th, 2012, 07:15 PM
Anti hero Honey badger? Angra Mainyu got in.

Lycodrake
January 11th, 2012, 07:23 PM
...and now you have me thinking of a Typhlosion as an Anti-Hero Servant.

Aiden
January 11th, 2012, 07:39 PM
All I'm thinking of now is Avenger riding giant honey-badgers.

Lycodrake
January 11th, 2012, 07:40 PM
All I'm thinking of now is Avenger riding giant honey-badgers.
Avenger as the Old Spice Guy: "I'm on a giant honey-badger."

Fingolfin
January 11th, 2012, 08:19 PM
All I'm thinking of now is Avenger riding giant honey-badgers.

Sweet Jesus! The horror, the unimaginable horror! What in the world could ever stop something so diabolical?! Honey Badgers are bad enough, but giant Honey Badgers?

Is there no God?!

giorno
January 11th, 2012, 08:55 PM
there was. then the honey badgers came and ate his balls....

mAc Chaos
April 5th, 2012, 01:19 PM
GEORGE WASHINGTON. The only hero who can defeat Gilgamesh.

terraablaze
April 5th, 2012, 01:23 PM
Not sure what to think.

Petrikow
April 5th, 2012, 01:29 PM
I think the discussion in this thread ceased because the conclusion was: No, Gilgamesh owns everyone.

Lock?

R.Lock
April 5th, 2012, 02:01 PM
Who called me out...?

mAc Chaos
April 5th, 2012, 02:06 PM
This thread is becoming amazing.


Not sure what to think.

He's practically famous worldwide, isn't he?

IMAGE IT.

terraablaze
April 5th, 2012, 02:11 PM
No not really. At least not to the degree you suggest. Fame boosts don't help as much as you imply anyway, George Washington has nothing that can help him against the man who is "Invincible amongst Heroic Spirits, a Slayer of Heroes."

If you're making a joke I don't get it.

aldeayeah
April 5th, 2012, 03:10 PM
Gilgamesh's natural enemy would be somebody who can seal the Gate of Babylon, or who can force a physical fight where one can't use any Noble Phantasms, or who can steal his Noble Phantasms.

Just build a Servant around any of those ideas.

Apple
April 5th, 2012, 03:12 PM
Nonsense, he has the original lockpicker. And the original aimbot. He just couldn't use it on Shirou because he was preoccupied with his villainous onoreonoreonoreonore war cry.

aldeayeah
April 5th, 2012, 03:15 PM
Even if we concede that Gilgamesh has the right tool for every job, if you keep the vault closed there's no way he can use it.

terraablaze
April 5th, 2012, 03:17 PM
I doubt any such thing exists. Sure you can make up a Servant that can do that but that's kind of a moot point because you can make up anything, it doesn't make it canon so you won't be winning any internet arguments.

aldeayeah
April 5th, 2012, 03:56 PM
I'm not concerned about winning anything.

Just saying, if I were the writer and wanted someone to trump Gilgamesh, that would be the path I'd follow.

Indeed, I haven't solved the hardest part which is finding a character who could justify having that kind of ability.

But I brought up the idea thinking that maybe somebody else could come up with such a character.

As for canon, the opening post was already throwing that out of the window.

Apple
April 5th, 2012, 04:21 PM
Even if we concede that Gilgamesh has the right tool for every job, if you keep the vault closed there's no way he can use it.

He keeps the original lockpicker in his original hidden pocket. It's a result of his original foresight and being the All-Seeing Star.

I3uster
April 5th, 2012, 04:25 PM
I doubt any such thing exists. Sure you can make up a Servant that can do that but that's kind of a moot point because you can make up anything, it doesn't make it canon so you won't be winning any internet arguments.

Can't Benkei steal or seal NPs or something like that?

Apple
April 5th, 2012, 04:49 PM
Benkei steals, he doesn't seal.

Gil can always pull out an older version of what got taken and proceed to beat him over the head for even trying. No idea how effective the pilgrimage NP would be, though it would be hilarious seeing a shrieking kinpika carted away into the afterlife by a mob of holy men.

terraablaze
April 5th, 2012, 04:53 PM
Can't Benkei steal or seal NPs or something like that?

A. Fate Apocrypha Servant not designed by Nasu
B. Gilgamesh probably has a counter. It would probably just steal a single sword anyway.

Apple
April 5th, 2012, 04:58 PM
Yeah, it steals a weapon and temporarily turns it into Benkei's. I really doubt it'd work on the gate itself or conceptual NPs.

terraablaze
April 5th, 2012, 05:02 PM
All this talk about sealing the gate shut and stealing just serves to remind me we have no idea how it really works. How many more posts before people start discussing whether it's time travel that leads straight to his original vault 4000 years ago or a vault sealed off from cause and effect?

Sherrinford
April 5th, 2012, 05:07 PM
How many more posts before people start discussing whether it's time travel that leads straight to his original vault 4000 years ago

Which leads to... "Gilgamesh's Adventures in Time"!!!


or a vault sealed off from cause and effect?

... this is a bit more difficult to expand on...

... but it's still interesting! (although, if so, the treasure would be impossible to steal, and it's not the case...)

I3uster
April 5th, 2012, 05:14 PM
It's a Noble Phantasm, I ain't gotta explain shit.

terraablaze
April 5th, 2012, 05:17 PM
... this is a bit more difficult to expand on...

... but it's still interesting! (although, if so, the treasure would be impossible to steal, and it's not the case...)

If you mean Lancelot that doesn't count because those weapons left the vault. Besides no matter how many times he fires off a Noble Phantasm it will reappear in his vault. So a possibility I suppose but who knows.

food
April 5th, 2012, 05:53 PM
No not really. At least not to the degree you suggest. Fame boosts don't help as much as you imply anyway, George Washington has nothing that can help him against the man who is "Invincible amongst Heroic Spirits, a Slayer of Heroes."

If you're making a joke I don't get it.

Slayer of legitimate Heroes.

May die to women and children.

But who cares about women and children.

terraablaze
April 5th, 2012, 06:07 PM
Well yeah, King of Carelessness is always there. It's like a built in backdoor for the author to arrange for Gilgamesh's defeat.

mAc Chaos
April 5th, 2012, 06:12 PM
All this talk about sealing the gate shut and stealing just serves to remind me we have no idea how it really works. How many more posts before people start discussing whether it's time travel that leads straight to his original vault 4000 years ago or a vault sealed off from cause and effect?
I always thought of it as leading to Babylon itself, lulz. THE ENTIRE KINGDOM, in his gate.

celsius
April 5th, 2012, 06:25 PM
Gilgamesh defeat #1:
Gilgamesh: "DRILL LASER, FIRE!!"
Saber: "SHIROU YOU ARE MY SCABBARD, ALSO I AM STICKING MY SWORD IN MY SCABBARD"
Shirou: "I. What?"
Saber: "A.T. FIELD ON"
- Gilgamesh's laser is blocked
Gilgamesh: "WAIT WHAT, WHAT IS THIS CRAP. You know what, screw this, I'm going home to watch Law & Order reruns."

Gilgamesh defeat #2:
Gilgamesh: "DRILL LASER, FIRE!!"
Saber: "SHIROU, I SUMMON THE POWER OF OUR LOVE!!"
Shirou: "KINDA IN THE MIDDLE OF SOMETHING HONEY--- oh wait no, love's good. Love's strong against evil sludge, right?"
Saber: "BARRIER!!"
- Gilgamesh's laser is negated
Gilgamesh: "Okay seriously, I ALREADY KNEW ABOUT THIS HOW DID I GET CAUGHT OFF GUA--"
Saber: "LASER SWORD!!"
Gilgamesh: "... I hate you. I hate you so much. But I guess that's why I love you. And now I am dead."

Gilgamesh defeat #3:
Gilgamesh: "SERIOUSLY I HAVE B-RANK STRENGTH HOW AM I LOSING TO THIS KID WITH HIS SHODDY BOOTLEGS!?"
Shirou: "MY PROTAGONIST MODIFIERS SPIT ON YOUR RPG STATS!"
Gilgamesh: "WELL IF THAT'S GONNA BE, I'LL JUST TAKE YOU WITH ME!!"
Archer: "Aaaaaaand sniped."
Gilgamesh: "... I hate this game."

Gilgamesh defeat #4:
Gilgamesh: "I have stabbed thee, wench, with my many swords! And now you are dead and there is nothing for me to worry about!"
Sakura: "By the way, I can regenerate. Also, I am very hungry."
Gilgamesh: "... You know what? Screw this. I give up."
- And then Gilgamesh was eaten

aldeayeah
April 5th, 2012, 07:40 PM
Nitpick: in the game he wasn't using Ea in defeat #1 (he only brought it out for a moment to blast Saber and then stored it back into the vault); that only happened in the anime. He was using Gram/Merodach in the game. So, in the game, Enuma Elish vs Avalon only happened in the final battle, which narratively makes more sense.

It just dawned on me, someone who could stop time might be able to beat Gil too.

...Maybe Joshua? If we twist the part about "stopping the sun/moon in the sky" to make it mean "stopping time"...

mAc Chaos
April 5th, 2012, 07:42 PM
That scene in the game confused me.

It wasn't very clearly spelled out.

It just seemed like a few sentences passed and then somehow Gil was defeated. It didn't even make it that clear that Ea was used. I think the anime did a better job of it there. I think he did use Avalon though; how else could they repel Ea? My memory is fuzzy though.

aldeayeah
April 5th, 2012, 07:45 PM
Not really. Gil has just laid the hurt on Shirou with Gram, is never said to change his weapon, and Shirou says Gil's attack is "a light not as strong as Excalibur".

http://fsn.seorinwastaken.com/archive/100.html

As for Team Shirou, they did use Avalon, but the name wasn't called. So it was a passive ability? Or they just used the object itself as a shield? That part isn't as clear.

Hell, I just noticed they never call Avalon's name aloud in the game! Not even in the final battle...

mAc Chaos
April 5th, 2012, 07:49 PM
I just figured Shirou was too out of his mind to notice Gilgamesh changing weapons. He notices a burning light coming for him. Gram can do that? And then it shows Saber's sword with the sheath on it, and he mentions he needs something to protect Saber, who he compares to a sword. That's why I thought it had to be like the anime.

But I'm not sure why he mentions having "something like a sword" in front of him when he projects. But if it was a sword it doesn't really make sense either. How would that save him from anything? But still, it's "something" like a sword, so maybe it's vague enough to be Avalon.

aldeayeah
April 5th, 2012, 07:54 PM
Gram's pretty powerful according to its description, so a light BIIMU is not so surprising.

I know there's a degree of ambiguity, but I prefer to think it was Gram, and not Ea, that was defeated by Avalon in that scene because IMO, even the King's carelessness can't justify him shrugging off the fact that his trump card was beaten.

Apple
April 5th, 2012, 08:28 PM
Slayer of legitimate Heroes.

May die to women and children.

But who cares about women and children.

It's from all the bad karma he racked up over the years molestig and eating young orphans to survive.

I swear, he's almost as bad as Gilles.

mAc Chaos
April 5th, 2012, 08:30 PM
I'm surprised they managed to make those kids last ten years.

Apple
April 5th, 2012, 08:33 PM
Gil > Gilles

Eats young children > rapes and kills young children

Is a prime antagonist at several points in time > is a prime antagonist at several points in time

has a sadistic killer for a master > has a sadistic killer for a master

Is pretty much given free reign to do what he wants > same deal

HMM COINCIDENCE?

Milbunk
April 5th, 2012, 08:34 PM
Tokiomi is a sadistic killer?

Junky
April 5th, 2012, 08:35 PM
He means Kirei. And Kirei is definitely an S.

mAc Chaos
April 5th, 2012, 08:39 PM
*sees Junky's avatar* If only he lived up to my expectations in Fate/Extra. But I was disappoint.

Laith
April 5th, 2012, 08:42 PM
Well it is only a copy of Kirei. Fakers are degraded one Rank in everything after all.

Apple
April 5th, 2012, 08:47 PM
If Kotomine was an antagonist in extra there wouldn't be much of a game left.

Beat the effigy? Bad end. Escaped the jabberwock? Bad end. Peek at rin and servant sexing it up? Stabbed in the back. Trying to set up the anti ki trap? Trolled by a surprise black key.

mAc Chaos
April 5th, 2012, 08:49 PM
I'd buy it.

I can see it now. You beat the final opponent, and then... suddenly, a thousand swords nearly impale you as Fate/Extra Gilgamesh appears.

Apple
April 5th, 2012, 08:51 PM
Please. Kotomine doesn't need Gilgamesh in any way shape or form to troll the protagonist to death.

Laith
April 5th, 2012, 08:52 PM
http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/g386/laith_rem/Week%206/snap068.jpg

http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/g386/laith_rem/Trollomine.jpg: Hahahaha… Don't be ridiculous.

http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/g386/laith_rem/Trollomine.jpg: All I will say about that is this: If I were your next opponent, you'd already be dead.

Apple
April 5th, 2012, 08:55 PM
Kotomine is so friendly sometimes.

Lycodrake
April 5th, 2012, 08:56 PM
He even has the celtic knot around his neck their.

celsius
April 5th, 2012, 08:59 PM
Kotomine sure was friendly in that game.

I can see why Emiya Shirou likes him. ;)

Apple
April 5th, 2012, 09:02 PM
Shirou loved him so much he tried to relieve his stress through magical acupuncture, unfortunately killing him in the process.

Anyway, Gilles is the new old Gil. If that makes any sense. Gil EX form! Now with infinitely more cthulhu and far less ego!

food
April 5th, 2012, 11:24 PM
Kotomine sure was friendly in that game.

I can see why Emiya Shirou likes him. ;)

Emiya Shirou loved Kotomine.

It is canon OTP.

celsius
April 6th, 2012, 12:02 AM
Emiya Shirou loved Kotomine.

It is canon OTP.

Alas, they were never meant to be. Kotomine Kirei was fated to die before they could form a meaningful relationship. Emiya Shirou had no choice but to settle with women and children.

food
April 6th, 2012, 12:05 AM
Alas, they were never meant to be. Kotomine Kirei was fated to die before they could form a meaningful relationship. Emiya Shirou had no choice but to settle with women and children.

Nasu is truly a Master of Tragedy.

*Sniff*

But that is why Heaven's Feel is such a profound route.

celsius
April 6th, 2012, 12:06 AM
Nasu is truly a Master of Tragedy.

*Sniff*

But that is why Heaven's Feel is such a profound route.

Emiya Shirou will never be able to experience the splendor that is Kotomine pelvic thrust. It is so sad.

Junky
April 6th, 2012, 02:01 AM
Is it just me or is every thread discussing Kirei's pelvic motion?

mAc Chaos
April 6th, 2012, 02:06 AM
The evil in this thread... it is more ominous than Mapo Tofu.

TetsuoS2
April 9th, 2012, 10:02 AM
Shirou would die, Kotomine breaks trees with his body!

Mike1984
April 9th, 2012, 10:38 AM
Tokiomi is a sadistic killer?

Well, he was pretty "sadistic" towards Kariya, IIRC....

terraablaze
April 9th, 2012, 10:41 AM
Yeah no.

Apple
April 10th, 2012, 10:21 AM
Like the other guy said, i meant kirei but considering how docile his wife is i guess tokiomi works too