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shinji
January 8th, 2012, 09:42 AM
Osu everyone, my first post here. :)

The question is simple, do servants' alignments in Fate Stay Night abide by DND rules? Coz it puzzles me that Lancer's alignment is Lawful instead of Chaotic.

Is there any law that he wouldn't break if he feels like it? Even his king could never order him around.

Erlkonig
January 8th, 2012, 09:49 AM
His promises are law.

terraablaze
January 8th, 2012, 10:19 AM
He conforms pretty much to the precepts of his times, and he tries to keep all his geas until the end.

Edit: here is what Complete Material 3 says about Servant alignments:


Alignment
A status showing a clear representation of the mentality of the Servant. It represents a combination of the policy they place importance on and their personality, policies being "lawful, neutral, chaotic" and personalities being "good, neutral, evil". These are different from the fire, wind, and other alignments of magi.
Non-matching personalities won't result in major discord, but differing policies will result in difficulty in a Servant resolving differences of opinion with another Servant.
Lawful Altria and Chaotic Gilgamesh will often have differing opinions despite their personalities both being the same "good".

That last part is pretty Dungeons and Dragons if you ask me.

Sakuraba Haru
January 8th, 2012, 10:27 AM
Also the Servant Alignments are what the Servants themselves think they are.

terraablaze
January 8th, 2012, 10:29 AM
Also the Servant Alignments are what the Servants themselves think they are.

citation needed

Edit: it's a distinct possibility but there is no hard evidence.

shinji
January 8th, 2012, 10:39 AM
Is that so? What about Berserker's Chaotic Insane?

terraablaze
January 8th, 2012, 10:42 AM
Well it obviously doesn't follow Dungeons and Dragons entirely, hence Karna having two opposite alignments at the same time. They are probably based on Nasu's homebrew RPG which probably took some elements from Dungeons and Dragons and made them his own.

shinji
January 8th, 2012, 10:44 AM
Chaotic Good

Chaotic Good is known as the "Beatific," "Rebel," or "Cynic" alignment. A Chaotic Good character favors change for a greater good, disdains bureaucratic organizations that get in the way of social improvement, and places a high value on personal freedom, not only for oneself, but for others as well. They always intend to do the right thing, but their methods are generally disorganized and often out of alignment with the rest of society. They may create conflict in a team if they feel they are being pushed around, and often view extensive organization and planning as pointless, preferring to improvise.

Robin Hood, Starbuck from Battlestar Galactica, and Malcolm Reynolds from Firefly are examples of Chaotic Good individuals. Eladrin are the outsider race representing Chaotic Good.

Lawful Neutral

Lawful Neutral is called the "Judge" or "Disciplined" alignment. A Lawful Neutral character typically believes strongly in Lawful concepts such as honor, order, rules and tradition, and often follows a personal code. A Lawful Neutral society would typically enforce strict laws to maintain social order, and place a high value on traditions and historical precedent. Examples of Lawful Neutral characters might include a soldier who always follows orders, a judge or enforcer that adheres mercilessly to the word of the law, and a disciplined monk.

Characters of this alignment are neutral with regard to good and evil. This does not mean that Lawful Neutral characters are amoral or immoral, or do not have a moral compass, but simply that their moral considerations come a distant second to what their code, tradition, or law dictates. They typically have a strong ethical code, but it is primarily guided by their system of belief, not by a commitment to good or evil.

Cited from Wikipedia.

I guess Kazuki Souichirou suits 'Lawful Neutral' even more than Lancer.

shinji
January 8th, 2012, 10:50 AM
Well, I think so

Apple
January 8th, 2012, 12:11 PM
Neither Kintoki nor George have alignments, heh.

mewarmo990
January 8th, 2012, 09:02 PM
Is that so? What about Berserker's Chaotic Insane?
Obviously that's not one of the traditional nine D&D alignments, but easy enough to understand.

Ethics: Chaotic because he doesn't follow any laws or philosophy.
Morals: Insane means he lacks the mental faculty to make moral decisions.

TypeWannabe
January 8th, 2012, 09:06 PM
Or it could just be because Berserker is so freaking metal simple things like morals, ethics, personality, etc. are beneath him. Berserker rolls hardcore.

ratstsrub
January 8th, 2012, 09:33 PM
Or because he's under ME.

deadfish
January 8th, 2012, 11:41 PM
What would lawful insane be?

Five_X
January 8th, 2012, 11:43 PM
You were politely asked by a governmental superior to go crazy and burn down an orphanage then save the orphans. You agreed without delay.

food
January 8th, 2012, 11:46 PM
What would lawful insane be?

Isn't Lancelot Lawful Insane?

terraablaze
January 8th, 2012, 11:46 PM
No ability to make moral choices, but executes orders in an orderly fashion?

food
January 8th, 2012, 11:48 PM
Lol, no he doesn't execute orders in an orderly fashion.

Lancelot does the exact opposite.

terraablaze
January 8th, 2012, 11:50 PM
Your post wasn't their when I was responding to deadfish's question. Your behavior under Mad Enhancement kind of depends on the degree anyway. At A rank you are basically a doll, why even bother with Lawful and Chaotic at that point?

Five_X
January 8th, 2012, 11:53 PM
At A rank you are basically a doll....

Heroic Spirit Kohaku, Servant Berserker.

Aiden
January 9th, 2012, 01:56 AM
Oh shi-

TypeWannabe
January 9th, 2012, 07:27 AM
That's horrible and yet I'm laughing.

Five_X
January 9th, 2012, 11:48 AM
My waifu understands if I make bad jokes about her.

Aiden
January 9th, 2012, 02:40 PM
She will take it out on you in bed later. With needles.

Strife ❤️
January 9th, 2012, 03:05 PM
No one mentioned Gilgamesh yet? His alignment makes no sense whatsoever.

Milbunk
January 9th, 2012, 03:12 PM
If I remember correctly, Gil believes that he is doing what is right in his own way.

Elyrin
January 9th, 2012, 03:13 PM
Gilgamesh believes himself to be Good aligned, so it is true. The will of the king overrides wimpy human concepts such as "alignment"!

He's chaotic because all the puny present laws are likewise useless bits of garbage to him. If he follows any rules at all, they will be his own!

Bloble
January 9th, 2012, 03:27 PM
Well, Lancer only follows his own rules, but he's the kind of guy who's big on promises and tradition, so he's Lawful.

Gilgamesh on the other hand is whimsical. He randomly does whatever he wants to, changes his mind arbitrarily, and basically does whatever he wants whenever. Thus, Chaotic.

terraablaze
January 9th, 2012, 03:58 PM
No one mentioned Gilgamesh yet? His alignment makes no sense whatsoever.

There are mentions again and again that Gilgamesh is in fact good and why, if you disagree... that might be kind of the point. Nasu doesn't seem to take much stock in classic definitions of good and evil.

Strife ❤️
January 9th, 2012, 04:13 PM
It's more the chaotic part. He is lawful. He follows the laws he set down as king.

As for the good/evil scale, it's worthless unless there is some objective measure. Almost everyone thinks they are doing good. You can't have one person as evil because they are evil, then another evil person as good because they believe they are good. Then the scale makes no sense.

terraablaze
January 9th, 2012, 04:22 PM
As far as I can tell Chaotic means self focused in Nasu's parlance. Unless we want to go with Fate Apocrypha's definition in which case it means he believes that the universe is a meaningless mess of a place to be.

Strife ❤️
January 9th, 2012, 04:27 PM
I'm sure it does have it's own logic but it's certainly not the well known Alignment system. As shown by 'Chaotic Mad' for berserker :p

terraablaze
January 9th, 2012, 04:37 PM
I think we already established that. See once again Karna being both Chaotic Evil and Lawful Good.

TypeWannabe
January 9th, 2012, 04:57 PM
But at least that one was explained.

Tobias
January 9th, 2012, 04:59 PM
Gilgamesh believes himself to be Good aligned, so it is true. The will of the king overrides wimpy human concepts such as "alignment"!


TBH, to me, this is far more likely then anything about his twisted desires to reform humanity or whatever, as much as nasu likes to go on and on about the king's order and rule, and things like how he cant be blackened or controlled make me think its actually quite plausible that when the grail classified him he just told it to fuck off and mark him down as good, it did.

Five_X
January 9th, 2012, 07:20 PM
Caster thinks she's Neutral Evil, so... *gasp!* ...emo Medea!?

Milbunk
January 9th, 2012, 09:03 PM
I honestly do not blame her for that, after being betrayed or being forced to betray other people she eventually just said "whatever and decided that if people wanted her to be the witch of betrayal then that's what she was gonna do."

Yakumo-san
January 26th, 2012, 03:29 AM
Sasaki being "Evil" doesn't fit at all though... that guy has honor and lets Shirou pass by. He even helps Saber and Shirou when Archer plans on backstabbing em.
But yes, it's effing Kojiroh... he might be so awesome he defies his own alignment that Nasu put up for him.

GlanGR
January 26th, 2012, 03:52 AM
The universe thinks Kojiro is evil since he gets so close to breaking its rules by just swinging a lot.

Hyarion
January 26th, 2012, 10:03 PM
I would mark him as Lawful Evil, myself. Terminator's mention of his strong code of honor is true, but imo that's his lawfulness rather than his morality.

Now if the world's about to go up in flames, all the better, because when someone goes to save it they'll be just that much more determined to cut him down -- and he can finally get that one battle worthy of a Heroic Spirit, dammit.

Yakumo-san
January 27th, 2012, 02:10 AM
Wouldn't that be more Lawful Neutral? I'm sure that if he had been summoned properly, he'd have helped vs Gil THEN sparred against Saber. The fact that the Grail was going haywire and that he himself was fake and had little time left kinda screwed him up that is.

Think of it, you're summoned by some guy, only to find out that you really aren't a true person, you're stuck to one place, and you can't even get a nice fight that a Spirit like you should have. Of course you will be pissed off and will try to get it.

Mcjon01
January 27th, 2012, 02:12 AM
He is a real person, just not Sasaki Kojiro.

Fakessassin
January 27th, 2012, 04:57 AM
Fake Assassin is counted as Evil because of Angra Mainyu's influence on the Grail. No-name-farmers did sacifice him and all that, probably took one look at Fake Assassin and yelled out at the Grail that he's evil. *Totally not serious*

Milbunk
January 27th, 2012, 10:44 AM
Dont the Master's play a part in the alignment as well?

Mike1984
January 27th, 2012, 11:40 AM
I don't think so, no. The alignment is personal to the servant, not derived from the master. Further, that fits Gil very poorly (he had two masters, one Lawful Neutral and the other Neutral Evil, yet he's listed as Chaotic Good).

Sherrinford
January 27th, 2012, 11:44 AM
I'd say it's more the role in which the servants plays that can change his alignment.

For example, Karna is Chaotic Evil/Lawful Good.

But then again, I'm basing my experience of alignment on wikipedia, so...

terraablaze
January 27th, 2012, 11:52 AM
Karna's alignment doesn't change.

People percieve his alingment as Chaotic Evil from his actions and that is what it would normally be, but since he is super enlightened and has access to priority knowledge about the nature of everything he gets to be Lawful Good because he bases his actions on things incomprehensible to mear mortals.

Five_X
January 27th, 2012, 01:36 PM
Karna is hardcore.

food
January 27th, 2012, 02:07 PM
It's the Master's characteristic/attribute that draws the Servant.

However, if you have a powerful enough catalyst (like Avalon to Sabre), Master's characteristic/attribute is irrelavant.

About Karna, I guess if you are a douchebag, the Chaotic Evil aspect will dominate. And if you are a good dude and show Karna the White Knight way, Karna will be Lawful Good. Something like that.

Vlad_the_II
January 27th, 2012, 02:09 PM
I don't think so, no. The alignment is personal to the servant, not derived from the master. Further, that fits Gil very poorly (he had two masters, one Lawful Neutral and the other Neutral Evil, yet he's listed as Chaotic Good).
Wait…we have alignments for masters?

SeiKeo
January 27th, 2012, 02:10 PM
Wait…we have alignments for masters?

Not from the Shroom, no.

food
January 27th, 2012, 02:11 PM
Jonnobi actually HAS the alignment for the Masters.

I don't know where they got it from.

Wait, no, that's just the laundary list for Servants only.

TypeWannabe
January 27th, 2012, 02:12 PM
Karna...or rather, KARNAL. AAAAAAAAWWWWWWW SHIT YEAAAAAAHHHH, HE BE BANGIN ALL THE THE PUSSIES

SeiKeo
January 27th, 2012, 02:12 PM
Jonnobi actually HAS the alignment for the Masters.

I don't know where they got it from.

Really? Well huh. What does it say?

Lycodrake
January 27th, 2012, 02:13 PM
...obviously it should say that Shirou is Chaotic Good Dumb.

Vlad_the_II
January 27th, 2012, 02:15 PM
Jonnobi actually HAS the alignment for the Masters.

I don't know where they got it from.
So there is no place for me to see all the masters alignments?
Pity, I’m curious what Shinjis alignment was.

food
January 27th, 2012, 02:15 PM
Really? Well huh. What does it say?

No, I remember I saw something, but the alignment are only for the Servants.



"With such a perfect holy relic, the summoned heroic spirit will definitely be the one we want. But his and my personalities are too vastly different. Originally, the nature of the summoned Servant will be affected by the Master’s personality. In theory, all Servants have similar personalities to their Masters’. However, this holy relic takes priority. The more exact the nature of the relic, the more likely it is that the summoned Servant will be locked as a certain spirit.”

According to this, if you summon without a catalyst or some weak sauce catalyst, personality matching will trump. However, most summonings do have catalysts. You can probably argue Blue Beard and Lancelot were summoned via personality matching.

terraablaze
January 27th, 2012, 02:21 PM
I think he wants you to post them anyway.

Mike1984
January 27th, 2012, 02:23 PM
Wait…we have alignments for masters?

No, but Tokiomi is pretty clearly Lawful Neutral. Kotomine is a bit harder, but he's definitely some kind of "Evil" alignment.


...obviously it should say that Shirou is Chaotic Good Dumb.

Shirou probably varies, actually. HF Shirou is Chaotic Good, Fate Shirou is more Lawful Good.


Pity, I’m curious what Shinjis alignment was.

Neutral Evil, almost certainly. He's selfish, but not really deliberately destructive or exceptionally Law-abiding.

TypeWannabe
January 27th, 2012, 02:25 PM
It goes without saying that drinks is Lawful Neutral.

Mike1984
January 27th, 2012, 02:27 PM
Really?

He trolls way too often for that, IMO.

food
January 27th, 2012, 02:28 PM
Really?

He trolls way too often for that, IMO.

It seems I have a fan.

terraablaze
January 27th, 2012, 02:32 PM
I think food's joshing about is in line with what a Lawful character would do. It's not like jokes really hurt anyone.

Lycodrake
January 27th, 2012, 02:32 PM
It seems I have a fan.
Make sure to get a warranty on it, and not waste too much electricity. XP

TypeWannabe
January 27th, 2012, 02:48 PM
It'll go bad in two years anyway.

Lycodrake
January 27th, 2012, 02:49 PM
It'll go bad in two years anyway.
Or around Shinji or Sakura. XP