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deviatesfish
January 24th, 2012, 05:42 PM
OOC: I moved this from Spacebattles and I'm keeping the first few actions. Hope you don't mind.

You wake up in the bed. It’s warm and comfortable. The soothing appeal of these strangely velvety, cotton sheets lure you further into its many folds. But your body acts differently. It’s time to wake up and through motions almost too mechanical to be human, you rise and step off of your bed. After you have already washed up and followed through the day, you realized something particular.

This isn’t your house.
This isn’t your room.
This isn’t your bed.
This isn’t your… body.

You are tiny; this body you are in is small even for its age. It is the body of a tiny Asian girl. It’s more graceful than yours, and far more flexible. Almost automatically, you walk out into the courtyard and begin going through many forms of certain styles of Chinese martial arts. Your body is fluid and flows thusly… easily.

As you follow through with whirling stabs and kicks, palms striking and knees thrusting in your deathly dance, you take time to admire the scenery. This house is huge. It could be called a manor, though barely anyone would have one this size. Just the maintenance of such a thing would be tremendous.

Half way through your crisp, clean forms, another girl joins in. She looks at you shyly before trying to keep up with your actions. Before long, she falls behind and begins to falter. You do not stop to help her.

She slows down, but you do not. As she falls to the ground, panting even as her knees scrapped into the earth, you do not stop to help her. She seems to be on the verge of tears, but then she stands back up and tries again, with renewed vigor.

After a moment, a soft clap echoes into the courtyard.

“Wonderful, my daughters,” a rich, baritone voice echoed from the balcony. You look up and see an elegant gentleman swirling a glass of rich, red wine. From the brown coloration that you could see from below, you could tell that the drink was rare and expensive. The man claps again, “As expected from my daughters, the future of the Tohsaka House. You are both doing well. Now come in and clean up. Your mother has prepared breakfast, so do not dally and make her wait, my daughters.”

This powerful body at the peak of human performance of this age, the rich house and fabulously dressed father, and the name Tohsaka… From the looks of it, you know exactly what you are. You, as a collective, have landed in the mind of Tohsaka Rin, a tragic genius who will face many more tragedies in the near future.

After cleaning up and breakfast...:

100%

After breakfast, whatever force it was that guided your body was gone. All you had left now is your own control. Something was still fighting within you, to keep you walking gracefully and steadily. Something was within that kept analyzing, but she could not see what you thought. It was like a one way mirror and you needed her. Without that force… you would be unable to be Tohsaka Rin.

So you glided to Tohsaka Sakura, whose eyes widened as you approached. She smiled at you shakily and bowed her head slightly, “Hello, nee-san. H-how are you?” She asked in confusion.

As you dug into your mind, memories of the past filtered into the surface. Images seen through the eyes of a young Rin as she studied her reading materials for elementary school as hard as she could. She was honest in her effort to prove herself to herself. That lack of focus that you have currently upsets her, though she still endures it because she could not speak up against you for some reason and she was curious. You saw an inkling in her mind, that if you proved to be unworthy or hostile, she would attempt in any and every way to rid her mind of you.

“I am fine, Sakura,” you heard yourself say. “But how I am does not matter. I am worried for you…” You began.

Before you could speak anymore, you were cut off as heavy footsteps sounded behind you. It was Father, and he only allowed you to hear his steps when he was upset by something. You looked around and saw him at the top of the stairs, looking down at you, “Sakura, go talk to your kaa-san. Rin, come and follow me.”

Shakily, Sakura scurried away.

You followed Father up the stairs and into one of the older laboratories. It was one of the cruder research rooms that Father often used to teach you magecraft. But none of the equipments were out. Father did not look like he was prepared to give a lesson in magecraft. He looked into your eyes kindly and asked, “Rin, what does a magus walk beside?”

“A magus must walk beside death,” you replied like reading from a textbook. The words flowed from your mouth like water. It was a much repeated phrase that even Rin’s body remembered.

Father nodded and then asked, “And what must a magus control?”

“A magus must control their emotions,” you replied again.

“Very good,” Father seemed to smile. “Do you know why I tell you this?”

The young Rin within did not, but she guess all sorts of fantastical reasons. But you knew what he was getting at. Your realization was so quick, that even the Rin within noticed it… and her shock was evident. Even Father saw your eyes widen in surprise. “B-because…”

Father looked on, making no moment.

“Because…” You whispered with your voice shaky, “A magus must be prepare to kill any foe, even if it is their relative.”

“That’s right, my daughter,” Father smiled gently as he patted your head. “Now then, are you ready for your lessons today?”

100%

You could feel the inner Rin’s confusion as she walked up to the area in her Father’s atelier that was prepared for her to study. She felt awkward, because she felt conflict from you over something that never bothered her before. You could almost feel her frowning, and you could hear her thinking to herself, “Why should I be worried? What is going to happen to Sakura that is so dangerous?”

But a moment later, as you walked up to your work desk, both Rin and you pushed the thought aside. What happens to Sakura couldn’t be too important anyway. What’s necessary is to focus on the now…

As you pushed prana with Rin, a strange, interesting thing happened. Rin did not feel it, but you did. She continued to focus on her pushing prana into the quartz jewel in front of her, but you…

You…

You felt pain beyond what could be called pain. It was pain of the very soul—as your magic circuits that were long since dormant suddenly were shot open. You with your collective, with your hundreds of souls, all screamed in blood-chilling agony that only you could hear. Imagine swimming in a sea of acid, as burning needles stabbed through every pore of your being, coming out the other side only to swirl around and stab again. And again. And again. Imagine this happening for what seems to be minutes, then hours, then days, then weeks, months, years, decades, millenniums…

…Then you, with your entire collective, passed out within little Rin’s mind. It was a good thing that she controlled your prana output with her subconscious, else you would have had your souls flayed into oblivion, only to be recycled by the world anew.

When little Tohsaka Rin tucked herself in that night, blushing as Mommy kissed her good night and shutting her eyes tightly in hopes of embracing a new day, she did not know what awaited her in her mind. Within her dreams, you woke up. All some three hundred of you regained consciousness at the same time, around the confused girl’s mind. Within that dream where nothing made sense, Rin cried in fear as you all appeared.

But to her, you were all ghastly phantoms, too blurred and too weak to be seen. Separated and divided, you are only gaseous ghosts who are unable to make any motions or sounds. However, together, you are more than enough to take hold of young Rin and whisper into her ears.

As you rallied, in that single moment, Rin turned to you and you saw into her eyes what she saw. It was enough to shatter your temporary resolve as much as cause Rin to resume screaming louder than before. You saw in her eyes…

…her. Three hundred or more of herself. Or are they yourself? She is you and you are she. Are you all but one being now? That seems to be the case, but you are no expert…

100%

“Calm down,” You say, and you heard your voice echoed hundreds of times in an instant. You say it as if you were saying it many times at the same time. A hive-mind collective that you are, you all aim for one goal: to help Rin settle down.

“A-are you me?” She asked tentatively and curiously. She approached you in this unreality and attempted to touch you. But within a dream, things don’t… make sense. One moment you were conversing so quickly, yet the next nothing seemed to have happened. “I…”

And then you woke up.

You went through the same motions again today. You excelled at martial arts, practicing your art of conscious, bodily control. With so many minds monitoring the same thing, your breathing and walking abilities are what young Rin alone could not achieve. Still, it was not so extraordinary that you earned anything more than a passing compliment from Poppa.

Sakura fell during the exercise today. When she did not pick herself up, Father scolded her and told you to continue. Father seemed to think that Sakura could keep going, but was limiting herself because she believed she couldn’t do it. Young Rin did not know exactly how that worked, because she believed in her own hard work.

Later at breakfast, Mommy said, “It is Saturday. Would you like to go to the park?” She asked this while looking at Sakura and you, but her eyes constantly flickered to Father.

After sipping his wine (Father seems to be drinking wine all the time, is he an alcoholic?), Father said, “Why don’t we leave it up to the girls what they want to do today? Well, Rin? …Sakura? Do you want to study magic today? Or do you want to go to the park? Or something else?”

100%

“Otou-san, alcohol isn’t good for your head,” You said sweetly.

Poppa seemed to fumble for a moment before he regained his composure. In this time, Mommy shushed you gently and tried to tell you that you shouldn’t tell your Poppa what to do, but Poppa interrupted. “Thank you, Rin,” he said, “However, I drink the alcohol slowly and my mind is not clouded by it. It does help dull the… Well, you don’t need to worry for me.” As an afterthought, he added, “Why don’t you go to the park. I… Otou-san needs to work.”

With that, he left.

“Rin,” Mommy said worriedly, “Your father doesn’t feel well, that’s why he drinks. When we come back, apologize to him, alright?”

Little Rin immediately responded before you could even think about what this meant. Was Tokiomi injured, that he needed to drink to dull the pain? You nodded fervently, “Yes, Okaa-san.”

“Good, now why don’t we go to the park,” Mommy asked. “Would you like that too, Sakura? The sun is out today and the weather looks lovely.”

Sakura nodded meekly.

Mommy drove you to the park. You played with Sakura in the sun, with the other kids in the park too, while Mommy watched. Whenever you turned to look at her, she would wave and smile at you kindly. The little Rin within thought it was a little embarrassing, but you could feel Mommy’s love almost tangibly wrap around you like a warm embrace. It was… overwhelming, how much she cared for you.

There was a creepy man in a hoodie watching Sakura and you play too. Little Rin wasn’t too worried; it’s just some random pedophile, probably.

When you returned to home, you immediately ran up to Poppa and apologized for questioning him earlier today. He patted you gently on the head and said, “Don’t worry about it, Rin. I know you care for me, that’s why you asked, right?”

“Um!” You nodded in affirmation.

“That’s my girl,” He smiled at you. “Why don’t you choose what you want to learn today, since you’re such a good girl?” He took out a book and showed you the table of contents, “You can choose anything here.”

[ ] Magic Circles
[ ] Incantations
[ ] Thaumaturgical Theory
[ ] Something Else

I3uster
January 24th, 2012, 05:43 PM
[x] Something Else

About familliars. Those are cool, and every little girl loves cute animals!

Spinach
January 24th, 2012, 05:43 PM
[x] Thaumaturgical Theory

[x] Something else, familiars! I3uster is right! Familiars!

It's here at last! Now I don't have to wade through SB to see it~

SeiKeo
January 24th, 2012, 05:45 PM
Familiars sounds fun.

Blackdeath6031
January 24th, 2012, 05:46 PM
[x] Something Else

About familliars. Those are cool, and every little girl loves cute animals!This. Please.

HolySeraph
January 24th, 2012, 05:50 PM
OOC: I moved this from Spacebattles and I'm keeping the first few actions. Hope you don't mind.


Are you bring over the 300 in the mind aspect as well?

Lycodrake
January 24th, 2012, 05:52 PM
[X]Familiars.
I think it should be...interesting.

Kotonoha
January 24th, 2012, 06:01 PM
>Otou-san
>Okaa-san

Oi, yamero.

Spinach
January 24th, 2012, 06:02 PM
I was honestly waiting for you to show up and point that out, Koto.

Erlkonig
January 24th, 2012, 06:03 PM
Lol Koto

deviatesfish
January 24th, 2012, 06:23 PM
NOPE I WILL KEEP AT IT KOTONEE.
Well, Seraph, if they come and participate here, then good for them. If not, we have like 300 people here.

100%

“Poppa…?” You asked slowly, “I want to learn about familiars.”

“Oh? That’s rather advanced for you isn’t it, Rin?” Poppa smiled gently down at you. Little Rin within you swooned at his gentle expression. He seemed to contemplate for a moment musing loudly, “I think I’ve heard of this phase, does this mean I have to get you a pet? Well… alright then, you have already read all the notes I have on this, haven’t you, Rin?”

“Um!” You nodded vigorously. The knowledge from Little Rin poured through, and you saw her reading and digesting vast amounts of knowledge too quickly for you to keep up. That was the mark of a genius, but thankfully, you didn’t have to keep up. Within the mind of Tohsaka Rin, you absorbed the knowledge she already comprehends almost instantly. The knowledge seemed skewed and twisted, different from the unreliable author’s original works and words.

It was only after you had learned from Rin that you realized this would be much more difficult than you originally believed.

Poppa knew that you could not do it however, and he took the rest of the day to lecture you on this topic of familiars. At the end of the lecture, he commented on how surprised he was that you were so attentive—even more than usual. It appears that at the very least, your presence within Rin allowed her to focus to a much finer degree than before, and at a much longer duration. To this, little Rin was ecstatic and more than a little nervous as to the true nature of what you were.

But she didn’t voice it.

The lecture itself was entertaining and provided you with information far beyond what Nasu could have provided. It was detailed and systematic, but also with a flair of elegance that only Poppa could pull off. By now even each of you has become accustomed to thinking of him as ‘Poppa’.

“It’s time for dinner, Rin,” Poppa petted you on the head before walking out. You quickly followed.

Dinner was a quiet affair, with Momma doting over you and Poppa making a small note on how far you have come. Sakura was meek and silent as usual, but she seemed to be brooding again. Little Rin dismissed it as nothing; she was far too excited to learn more magecraft to think of anything else.

…And so time passed. A week flew by quickly with you rapidly gaining more knowledge. Through the week, Momma took more time to talk to you when she could, telling you to not over exert yourself. Sakura seems to be sad lately, but that’s probably because she’s still far behind you in her studies. She ought to be more diligent instead of just barely scrapping by, little Rin thought to herself. By the end of the week, Poppa told you that you were too unskilled in your other subjects to actually create a familiar, despite your now intimate knowledge.

“You will get there eventually,” he said. “You are a Tohsaka, and moreover, you are my daughter. I know you will do well. But for now, keep studying alright?”

[ ] Study other subjects
[ ] Try to make a familiar in secret
[ ] Ask father to walk you through it
[ ] Other?

SeiKeo
January 24th, 2012, 06:24 PM
Dad likes us and it's too risky alone, ​ask him for a walkthrough.

I3uster
January 24th, 2012, 06:24 PM
[x] Ask father to walk you through it

She's a good kid, no stealthy approaches.

Erlkonig
January 24th, 2012, 06:25 PM
[ ] Ask papa to walk you through it while walking around in circles, flinging back his hair and holding a glass of wine.


​Class overload

Spinach
January 24th, 2012, 06:26 PM
[x] Ask father to walk you through it

Let's play it safe. Little Rin tried to open a book on her own and almost got herself killed. I'd rather not have our familiar experiment go awry without Poppa around.

HolySeraph
January 24th, 2012, 06:28 PM
Well, Seraph, if they come and participate here, then good for them. If not, we have like 300 people here.


Ahh okay. still running both or is SB server issues getting to you?

deviatesfish
January 24th, 2012, 06:34 PM
I'm not running the SB one because the servers are fucking with my mind.

“Poppa?” You inquired again, “Could you… walk me through it? I want to make a familiar!” You said with as much determination as you could, even as the little Rin within seemed to struggle with her only mental limitations. She seemed to dislike going against her Poppa’s words, and with good reason too.

“Rin,” Poppa said firmly as he knelt down and grasped your shoulders, “You aren’t ready yet, I already told you this. Now go help your mother set the table for lunch.” What he didn’t say was how unhappy he was with you trying to keep at something that he just said you didn’t have the skill for. It hurt a lot, but the one hurting most was little Rin. She was crying on the inside at Poppa’s look of dissatisfaction, because at this point in her life, her Poppa’s approval was everything to her.

The next day, Rin was so unmotivated that she seemed to have blanked out, leaving you to spar Sakura on your own. You were so surprised by this, that you were almost defeated by Sakura of all people! You would have laughed at how pathetic you were, if you weren’t the one almost beaten by Sakura.

“Rin,” Poppa said as he gathered the family in the hallway. “I have to go on a business trip. I will be back in a week, so be a good girl and listen to your mother, alright? Oh, and you too, Sakura.” He took time to hug both of you and share one last kiss with Momma before turning around and walking out.

With that, Poppa left.

[ ] Secret Familiar time!
[ ] Study other magecraft (Specify)
[ ] Ask Momma to teach you?
[ ] Other

Tobias
January 24th, 2012, 06:36 PM
[other] take a break! all work and no play make lil magus a frustrated girl.

deviatesfish
January 24th, 2012, 06:37 PM
=_=

Tobias
January 24th, 2012, 06:38 PM
kotomine shirou is a bad idea and you should feel bad.

I3uster
January 24th, 2012, 06:39 PM
Secret familliar time can't be good...and Aoi is useless. Still it's fun to ask her.

[x] Ask momma to teach you

Erlkonig
January 24th, 2012, 06:46 PM
[ ] Study other magecraft (Specify)


​Whatever the Barthomelois use.

I3uster
January 24th, 2012, 06:56 PM
Wind?

Erlkonig
January 24th, 2012, 06:57 PM
Wind?

Ok sure why not, let's learn how to use WIND magecraft

Mike1984
January 24th, 2012, 06:58 PM
You know, you could stop the pointless, constant and totally OOC Sakura-bashing....

I3uster
January 24th, 2012, 06:59 PM
Ok sure why not, let's learn how to use WIND magecraft
You know, that stuff isn't actually that impressive, the Bartholomelois are just that good. But I won't stop you. Wind it is!

Spinach
January 24th, 2012, 07:02 PM
[x] Study other magecraft (Numerology)

I3uster
January 24th, 2012, 07:04 PM
You know, she could actually do that, because lolaverageone.

deviatesfish
January 24th, 2012, 07:04 PM
What's going on guys?

Yun
January 24th, 2012, 07:05 PM
[X]Study Jewel magecraft.

I3uster
January 24th, 2012, 07:05 PM
Tobi voting break, Erl voting wind, Spin voting Lightning,Yun voting Jewels, Me voting for annoying Aoi

Spinach
January 24th, 2012, 07:06 PM
You know, she could actually do that, because lolaverageone.

Yeap! And she'd be no slouch, either. Freakin' talent.


What's going on guys?

Roa's magecraft! I like lightning.

Erl, lightning falls under Wind, care for a compromise?

Bam, two for lightning!

SeiKeo
January 24th, 2012, 07:07 PM
Roa's magecraft! I like lightning.

This.

Erlkonig
January 24th, 2012, 07:18 PM
Yeap! And she'd be no slouch, either. Freakin' talent.



Roa's magecraft! I like lightning.

Erl, lightning falls under Wind, care for a compromise?

Bam, two for lightning!

YES LIGHTNING

Mechatrill
January 24th, 2012, 07:24 PM
Suddenly, a very silly thought:

Let's go look for old family homework! Specifically, one about a sword from this old vampire...

Kumoatsu
January 24th, 2012, 07:25 PM
[x] Study other magecraft (Numerology)

Larekko12
January 24th, 2012, 07:32 PM
[x] Study other Magecraft Channeling without.

Why'd you go drop all the votes fish?

deviatesfish
January 24th, 2012, 07:35 PM
Uh... there's a lot to keep track of, that's all. I thought if I was going to move it all here, I might as well wipe the votes, or else people won't bother.

Zeranion
January 24th, 2012, 07:58 PM
[x] Study other subjects

I think numerology is a fine subject.

Still, we should actually think about what path we want to take Rin towards. We going to try to take her to Second Magicican, are we going to use our collective boost and her abilities to discover the sixth, or are we going to try and warp her mind into a Reality Marble? There are a lot of possibilities and figuring that out will help us decide what we want to do in the future for training.

I3uster
January 24th, 2012, 07:59 PM
For now shooting motherfucking lightning everywhere should be enough.

Kumoatsu
January 24th, 2012, 08:00 PM
[x] Study other subjects

I think numerology is a fine subject.

Still, we should actually think about what path we want to take Rin towards. We going to try to take her to Second Magicican, are we going to use our collective boost and her abilities to discover the sixth, or are we going to try and warp her mind into a Reality Marble? There are a lot of possibilities and figuring that out will help us decide what we want to do in the future for training.

OH GOD! Where going to turn her into the Rei aren't we?!?!?1:eek:

deviatesfish
January 24th, 2012, 08:11 PM
Rei?

Lycodrake
January 24th, 2012, 08:12 PM
Rei?
I think he means this: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/FanFic/NobodyDies

deviatesfish
January 24th, 2012, 08:17 PM
Confused.

Zeranion
January 24th, 2012, 08:22 PM
Confused.

Same here...

We could try to take her down the horribly disturbed and unbalanced path that is Nobody Die's Rei... And the Ree...

But honestly, I just wanted for us to at least start considering what we actually want to accomplish as we're inhabiting her body.

Besides saving Sakura.

Yes Mike, we know it's important to save her.

I3uster
January 24th, 2012, 08:31 PM
Get magic knowledge, especially combat expertise. Even a small child is dangerous when it is packed with circuits.

Get Tokiomi to actually survive the war.

Turn into a proper Magus lady, with your father having reached the root.

Lycodrake
January 24th, 2012, 08:33 PM
...and get a threesome with Shirou and Saber?
Or not...

HolySeraph
January 24th, 2012, 08:40 PM
...and get a threesome with Shirou and Saber?
Or not...
Unlimited Blade Works Good Harem ending?

Lycodrake
January 24th, 2012, 08:43 PM
Unlimited Blade Works Good Harem ending?
...maybe. I think it's the best one that Rin gets...mostly since she gets the two of them in that ending...
YMMV on the whole thing. XP

deviatesfish
January 24th, 2012, 08:49 PM
Rei? Ree? I'm still confused. :(

Lycodrake
January 24th, 2012, 08:52 PM
Rei? Ree? I'm still confused. :(
...it would take way too long to explain. XP

Also...since Beam has lead me to like it, and Mike might like it, we could make this end up with Rin x Shirou x Sakura x Saber...or something.

Zevrand
January 24th, 2012, 10:22 PM
[x] Help Sakura in her studies. Teaching someone else is a fantastic way of learning.

Tetsurō
January 24th, 2012, 10:27 PM
[x] Help Sakura in her studies. Teaching someone else is a fantastic way of learning.And we could start with the needed fields for summoning a familiar (ZnT)^^ Seriously, working on that would be good.
...
...
Could we get a ZnT familiar?

drake_azathoth
January 24th, 2012, 10:29 PM
(For the uninitiated) Nobody Dies is a parody fanfic of 'Neon Genesis Evangelion' run on WTF. Straightlaced character Rei Ayanami is converted to a very bizarre character indeed in the fanfic. Best I could describe her is a creepy cheerful mix of Ilya and Taiga. The Ree are clones of Rei which in the original anime stayed in the vats... In this one, it's complicated, but they're all awake and they take on bizarre personalities as well.

[x] Learn to use Lightning!

deviatesfish
January 24th, 2012, 10:29 PM
...Hiraga Saito?

Tetsurō
January 24th, 2012, 10:35 PM
...Hiraga Saito?A playmate, and if we catch him early enough he won't be an ass.

Zevrand
January 24th, 2012, 10:35 PM
Why the hell would we do that?

Lycodrake
January 24th, 2012, 10:36 PM
...how about no on that? Just saying. Ko-Gil would be a better choice, and it wouldn't lead to a crossover. ^^;;;

Tetsurō
January 24th, 2012, 10:40 PM
Why the hell would we do that?It was a crack question, but one I did get to wondering about the possibilities of.


...how about no on that? Just saying. Ko-Gil would be a better choice, and it wouldn't lead to a crossover. ^^;;;Yeah, but its Gil>_> Maybe Alex?

Lycodrake
January 24th, 2012, 10:42 PM
It was a crack question, but one I did get to wondering about the possibilities of.

Yeah, but its Gil>_> Maybe Alex?
Alex who?

Tetsurō
January 24th, 2012, 10:43 PM
Alexander, Rider from Zero if I understand it right.

deviatesfish
January 24th, 2012, 10:48 PM
[x] Help Sakura in her studies. Teaching someone else is a fantastic way of learning.

This is true that it is a fantastic way to learn. But what do you plan to teach her that you have not already learned?

Zevrand
January 24th, 2012, 10:55 PM
This is true that it is a fantastic way to learn. But what do you plan to teach her that you have not already learned?
Do you mean that she hasn't already learned?

In either case, let's study shadow magic. We know OOC that Sakura is good at it. I have no idea how difficult making a 'shadow dimension' like Dark Sakura is, but even limited progress towards that goal seems like it would also be progress towards kaleidoscope.

If Sakura and Rin show potential towards achieving True Magic while working together? Neither of them is going to be given away.

deviatesfish
January 24th, 2012, 11:11 PM
...but that's Sakura in like... 12 years. Right now Sakura hasn't gone through what she had gone through to be so warped enough to be talented in what she was talented in. Both of them have barely begun in their studies of magecraft... if you just jump right into it, you'll get overwhelmed. Basically, all you could really study at this point are very basic things...

Zevrand
January 24th, 2012, 11:15 PM
...but that's Sakura in like... 12 years. Right now Sakura hasn't gone through what she had gone through to be so warped enough to be talented in what she was talented in. Both of them have barely begun in their studies of magecraft... if you just jump right into it, you'll get overwhelmed. Basically, all you could really study at this point are very basic things...
I was under the impression Sakura always had shadow as an element, and got water from Matou 'training'.

Is there any really basic shadow stuff to work with (or, for that matter, lightning, since people seem to like that)?

If not... well, reinforcement is fairly useful, and that appears to be super simple. And since it's nonelemental, Sakura actually has a good chance of doing well, and she needs that.

Tetsurō
January 24th, 2012, 11:17 PM
...but that's Sakura in like... 12 years. Right now Sakura hasn't gone through what she had gone through to be so warped enough to be talented in what she was talented in. Both of them have barely begun in their studies of magecraft... if you just jump right into it, you'll get overwhelmed. Basically, all you could really study at this point are very basic things...Like Reinforcing, Structural Analysis, Projecting...

Zeranion
January 24th, 2012, 11:17 PM
...but that's Sakura in like... 12 years. Right now Sakura hasn't gone through what she had gone through to be so warped enough to be talented in what she was talented in. Both of them have barely begun in their studies of magecraft... if you just jump right into it, you'll get overwhelmed. Basically, all you could really study at this point are very basic things...

On that note, I'm wondering why everyone jumped on the familiar idea... We're still working on basics, though we've at least moved past projection and reinforcement it seems since we're messing with jewels.

We're talented yeah, but we don't even really have a solid foundation yet.

deviatesfish
January 24th, 2012, 11:17 PM
...That's not what I mean.

I just mean you can't say they are really talented at anything at this point other than just being talented at magecraft in general.

...I have no idea how you guys are going to get the materials to study what you want to study.

Zeranion
January 24th, 2012, 11:23 PM
...I have no idea how you guys are going to get the materials to study what you want to study.

*blinks* you telling me the Tohsaka library doesn't have books on wind thaumaturgy of any kind? How the heck did Rin master the element then in canon?

... Or are you talking about some of the other ideas like the shadow element? True that is Sakura's affinity, but if she wants to master that then I think she will have to study that on her own and make a whole separate branch of the family. Rin would be the inheritor of the Tohsaka magecraft and Sakura would be the start of a new branch that studied a different style.

Ironically, should Sakura do that I find it highly unlikely that Tokiomi will give her to Zouken since she'd be on the path to not only elevating the Tohsaka family, but she wouldn't need the Makiri magecraft of absorption either.

deviatesfish
January 25th, 2012, 12:38 AM
It seems like everyone wants Lightning or something however.

Zeranion
January 25th, 2012, 01:22 AM
It seems like everyone wants Lightning or something however.

Sounds like they're shooting too high or for an odd affinity to me... Lightning is a secondary element of wind thaumaturgy if I remember correctly. If we can't find what we want to study then it sounds like GM call to me. People trying to study something that doesn't exist or is simply a dead end is something that just happens sometimes in RPs. Maybe we just start working on Wind with hopes of moving up to lightning later...

You make the call Fish.

deviatesfish
January 25th, 2012, 01:30 AM
I'll get around to this then... people keep shooting so high even though I already told them they didn't have the skill...

Zevrand
January 25th, 2012, 03:33 AM
I'll get around to this then... people keep shooting so high even though I already told them they didn't have the skill...

Is reinforcement within the scope of our abilities? If a half-trained idiot like Shirou can manage it, it really should be.

With this much MP we might (later) even be able to brute force our way into projection abuse.

Erlkonig
January 25th, 2012, 06:45 AM
I'll get around to this then... people keep shooting so high even though I already told them they didn't have the skill...

Hey, I was planning on wind, but Spinach wanted lightning.


Alright fine, let's start with basic wind magecraft =x

Spinach
January 25th, 2012, 06:48 AM
Basic wind, then.

Larekko12
January 25th, 2012, 06:51 AM
It seems like everyone wants Lightning or something however.
I want one of the original choice papa said we were ready to study that didn't seem like it would lead to a fatal blow out before we could abort. We should really be studying basic energy usage.

Since it seems this may have been another chance for us to backtrack onto one of the approved list when the first lesson was mostly wasted on something we couldn't work on and not getting a useful and rather dangerous change accounted for by one of the teachers whom has our honest goodwill and the goodwill of the family accounted for.

YOu die when you try to fly to high without proper grounding in fishes games.

Altima of the Gates
January 25th, 2012, 11:18 AM
Basic wind, then.

Pretty much. And even then, as you saw in Zero she was kinda cracking jewels just practicing getting the ratio of prana right, so you might want to hold off for the both of them on abstract concepts before you have them blow up the house. Just practicing cycling the flow of prana is within their range right now, or making jewel sculptures. Maybe using ether clumps to mould and shape (ether being tied more to Sakura's stuff than Rin's) and refine skillfully using prana. Then, once you do that, body reinforcement once you have the basics of prana usage down pat, to keep from blowing *yourself* up.

You gotta crawl before you walk, after all. Each lesson should build upon the next.

whosaidthat
January 25th, 2012, 01:26 PM
Is this still going?

deviatesfish
January 25th, 2012, 01:55 PM
Is this still going?

I don't update for a single day and this happens

whosaidthat
January 25th, 2012, 02:47 PM
With that, Poppa left.

[ ] Secret Familiar time!


I know it was already done by that, but I really wanted to go Childcare is War here... :(

deviatesfish
January 25th, 2012, 04:02 PM
“Kabbalah~ Kabbalah~!” You hummed softly as you skipped through the Tohsaka family’s vast library. There were many books in many languages. Little Rin barely knew any of them, but strangely enough, the hivemind that is you seems to know quite a few of them. “Banana~ Kabbalah~!” You sang as you dug deeper into the library.

Momma had left to do the groceries earlier today, so only Sakura and you were home. Sakura had just about caught up to you on her school work, so she was working on her magecraft studies. Thankfully, that creepy Kirei man had not come today.

“Banana~ Banana~!” You sang as you carried a stack of books that rose above your head slowly towards a desk. The stack was uneven and it tilted awkwardly every time you took a step, forcing you to slow down and balance yourself. “Banana~ Kabbalah~!”

Finally, you dropped the stack onto your desk. It was where you did most of your studies in magecraft. You took the first book off of the pile and flipped it open and gasped, “Eeh? I don’t understand any of this…!” Little Rin whined frustratedly. However, you could comprehend just the very basic aspects of this book. It was far more difficult than you thought “magic” could be. This was like reading a textbook on chemistry in legalese… so confusing!

Little Rin was clutching her head in her head, but she tried her best.

You continued to attempt to study this form of Thaumaturgical theory, but you don’t get very far. Near the end of the week, you think you might have pieced together enough knowledge to have recreated the basics of the Roa’s numerology magecraft, but you need more knowledge in fields like channeling prana and magical seals to continue. Thankfully the most difficult parts—the calculations and theories—were easy for you to understand; Rin did not have as easy of a time, but some of your understanding seemed to bleed off to her. At the end of the week, you were confident in your knowledge of the theories behind Numerology and Kabbalah… at least enough to boast to Poppa what you learned.

“Rin, time to go to the park!” Momma called from down stairs.

You jumped off your seat and answered, “I’m coming Momma!”

The park was fun! Some of Rin’s childish amusement seemed to have copied over to you, giving you joy in such simple things that you might not have enjoyed before. The smell of the plants, the warmth of the sun, and sound of laughter made you only happier. While you played tag with Sakura, a creepy man approached Momma…

…It’s Uncle Kariya!

“Sakura! Rin!” He smiled at the two of you warmly as you approached him. Sakura jumped at him, but was only able to get up to his waist, where she hugged tightly. You joined in. “It’s been a while, how have you been?”

“I’ve been studying hard!” You say proudly.

He laughed and ruffled your hair, “That’s great!”

Little Rin pouted indignantly; she was older now, there’s no need to treat her like a kid! Uncle Kariya saw that and he only smiled wider. The three of you played around a bit longer while Momma watched happily. It was a good day.

The next morning, Poppa was home!

“Rin, have you been a good girl and listened to your Mother?” Poppa asked kindly.

“Um!” You nodded firmly.

“That’s my daughter,” he said as he pulled you in for a hug. “Have you been studying hard?”

[ ] Complete progress report!
[ ] Partial progress report.
[ ] Oh, I did this and that…
[ ] Other?

I3uster
January 25th, 2012, 04:04 PM
[x] Complete progress report!

Even if we didn't learn much useful stuff, we should brag about it.

Lycodrake
January 25th, 2012, 04:04 PM
[X]Partial Progress Report.

Spinach
January 25th, 2012, 04:06 PM
[X]Partial Progress Report.

If he sees how talented we are, he might teach us even more amazing things!

whosaidthat
January 25th, 2012, 04:16 PM
Complete Status Report

Also, can't we help lil'Sakura? Teaching other people is some of the best way to learn yourself, if anything you learn patience in how not to strangle to death your student.

I3uster
January 25th, 2012, 04:17 PM
What can we teach her though? We learned something pretty obscure right now, something we can't even understand. Teaching that to Sakura doesn't help her.

whosaidthat
January 25th, 2012, 04:20 PM
Not this, but in general.

I3uster
January 25th, 2012, 04:23 PM
Can't hurt I guess. But for now, let's focus on becoming a working Magus.

So, what will we need for that?

whosaidthat
January 25th, 2012, 04:31 PM
By 'we' you mean the collective or Rin?

Erlkonig
January 25th, 2012, 04:34 PM
[x] Complete progress report!

I3uster
January 25th, 2012, 04:43 PM
Aren't "we" Rin anyway?

Larekko12
January 25th, 2012, 07:41 PM
Nope we are the soul conglomerate sharing space with Rin blended yet distinct.

[x]Complete porgress report.

also no more straws people we have reached too far twice in a row and suboptimally wasted two update in turn in our studies. Basics basics basics! Lest frustration mount and Rin rebels when we really need her ot do something.

I3uster
January 25th, 2012, 07:43 PM
Well, didn't hurt to try, she's a genius after all.

But achieving the impossible doesn't work appaarently.

whosaidthat
January 25th, 2012, 08:13 PM
Not without Protagonist status. We have main cast status, and that counts a lot.

Larekko12
January 25th, 2012, 08:35 PM
Well, didn't hurt to try, she's a genius after all.

But achieving the impossible doesn't work appaarently.


Not without Protagonist status. We have main cast status, and that counts a lot.

No achieving the equivalent arts of a 8th degree black belt and a Phd while having the skills of a yellow belt and second grader doesn't work.

shirou achieved the impossible through, talent, having his soul wiped bare, trauma, and time fuckery due to resonation with future self and benifit ofthe counter force.

Learn to crawl, then stand, then walk and running and you will find yourself reaching critical mass soon enough.

whosaidthat
January 25th, 2012, 08:46 PM
The whole argument falls flat since he literally achieved the impossible. Too bad in Nasu there are degrees of impossibility.

Larekko12
January 25th, 2012, 09:18 PM
The whole argument falls flat since he literally achieved the impossible. Too bad in Nasu there are degrees of impossibility.

No he fell into the 'impossible' due Extreme luck, hard work, conincident and a lot of suffering on over-development alongside with being at the site of a remnant of magic, having a Noble phantasm piggy backing in him, and meeting a future self who was contracted with the world. In addition to participating in the ritual of a true magic. Having a reality marble if perfectly possible being systematically distorted enough to use while human is much much less likely. Less impossible and more improbable or you lack sufficient info to define.

Any way basics first.

deviatesfish
January 25th, 2012, 11:28 PM
You told Poppa everything. He laughed softly, “Ha, ha, you certainly have been a busy girl, haven’t you?”

With that, he walked in and started drinking some twenty year old wines. You could smell it from here with your sensitive nose, but just as you scrunched up your features in “ewww”, another man walked in. It was Poppa’s apprentice, Kotomine Kirei. He only made your frown worsen, though he only nodded at you and offered a simple greeting, “Good day, Miss Rin.”

They did some stuff, but you were too tired from all your recent studying to spy on them. Kirei left next morning and Poppa began teaching you more and more about magecraft. Due to your now even more superior brainpower, you improved in leaps and bounds ahead of Sakura in all things theoretical. With your knowledge, school work was just work now, and you breezed through it quickly. Though it was rare, sometimes Sakura would ask you to help her on her studies, which you do quickly. There wasn’t much to learn from what you did teach her however, because by the time she caught up with you, you were far ahead again. A small part of you felt bad for her, but she seemed to be happy enough with her progress and the attention she did get from you.

The next month flew by pretty quickly, because you were still too young for kindergarten, but Poppa seemed to be increasingly worried that you should be more around children your age. At least, that is what you heard him tell Momma in whispers anyway.

The first time you attempted to make a crystal sculpture with all your magic circuits active, Poppa had to jump in and pull you away—you had made a giant, erect tower of a crystal before it shattered into many pieces. A few of the shards actually cut your fingers; that hurt and you bleed a little. Little Rin was sniffling on the inside, but she tried to hold up a tough outer image. It didn’t last when Poppa took your hands into his and began healing you. Little Rin cried a few tears in your mind, but did her best to hold the tears back.

Poppa was rather surprised at how many magic circuits you had… or something. He seemed to panic for several days and had forbidden you from practicing magecraft for that week. He made you read up on something he deemed harmless, the theories behind magic circles. It actually fortified your knowledge on practicing magecraft in general, though that was also only theory. At the end of the week, he decided to walk you through the steps of cycling prana from the very beginning.

By then, Rin had gotten very frightened and anxious about this whole ordeal and was more than a little willing to expose you. Thankfully, when Poppa began teaching you again, she rescinded her plans for attempting to remove you—though she probably would be unable to remove you anyway. In that next week, Poppa worked tirelessly with you teaching you the basics of channeling and cycling prana inside and outside of you.

Perhaps it was because you had an excess of three hundred minds working in tandem or something else, but you learned this far faster than what you had expected to take you. By the end of the month you were able to sculpt various things with crystals—and even repair broken crystals. You even made a tiny replica of Avalon once, but quickly changed it into a chunk of something else when Poppa turned his attention towards you. Oops.

By the end of the month, you could say that you had come very far in the study of magecraft. It had been a tough, uphill battle, but you’ve finally gotten where you were. Even though you knew there was still much to learn, you were slightly more confident in yourself by then. Little Rin was too… you seemed to influence each other greatly, though it seems to be that she was influencing you far more than you were influencing her.

Sakura had also improved a lot in a month. She was able to match you strike by strike in martial arts now, making her a far more interesting sparring partner. Or this could also be because you have not been devoting a lot of time to martial arts… if at all. Through this, Sakura seems to be more confident too. She was smiling more lately and a whole lot of fun when you did get together at the park and play. Uncle Kariya occasionally showed up and gave the two of you jewelry, strangely enough.

[ ] Okay we studied enough, time to be slackers
[ ] Let’s study Reinforcement
[ ] Let’s study Familiars
[ ] Let’s study Numerology
[ ] Other

SeiKeo
January 25th, 2012, 11:29 PM
All work and no play makes Rin a dull girl?

Larekko12
January 26th, 2012, 12:35 AM
[x] Let's Play sparring with Sakura or study reinforcement beginning with structural analysis and then reinforcing other objects and never ourselves withtout father. Or play in the park

Kumoatsu
January 26th, 2012, 02:03 AM
[X] Let’s study Reinforcement

You know, while we still have a chance to do this under decent supervise. Its a dangerous thing to practice by yourself. Much less so if you have supervision.

Yun
January 26th, 2012, 02:09 AM
[X] Let’s study Reinforcement

Zevrand
January 26th, 2012, 03:01 AM
[x] Numerology is a load of crap for weak-minded idiots.

Let's study something with more rigor, based on real science.

Numeronomy.

deviatesfish
January 26th, 2012, 03:43 AM
They said numerology because Roa uses it. Since it's older, it's supposed to be more... Ooo mysterious ooo...?

I3uster
January 26th, 2012, 03:46 AM
[x] Okay we studied enough, time to be slackers

Chill out for now. Reinforcement isn't that useful (a reinforced kid is still not on the level of an adult), and even with more experience Numerology is kinda hard.

deviatesfish
January 26th, 2012, 03:48 AM
(a reinforced kid is still not on the level of an adult)

But with enough dakka ammunition prana, wouldn't reinforced child be... better?

I3uster
January 26th, 2012, 03:55 AM
Yeah, a better kid. But since I want to play Rin Tohsaka: Child Secret Agent I'd prefer something with more boom.

Numerology would be pretty cool for that, since shocking people is effective even when you are a little kid. Reinforced kicks to the shins may look cool but the usefulness is rather limited when stuck in the body of a child.

al103
January 26th, 2012, 04:46 AM
[X] Let’s study Familiars
[X] Continue training with Sakura
[X] And play with her.

I wonder if in current situation Sakura is better suited to receive Tohsaka family crest...

deviatesfish
January 26th, 2012, 04:55 AM
I disagree with that, but this isn't the place to debate the functions of a game mechanic... What I say goes. However, you are free to pursue the path of numerology... except you will need to persuade the others to change their vote.

You have already far surpassed Sakura in magecraft, so you're probably going to be getting the crest and Sakura will have to face a future of horrendous torture. It's either/or, and Rin doesn't know what's to come anyway.

Zevrand
January 26th, 2012, 04:59 AM
Sacrilege as it may be, this may be one of the few instances where it's acceptable to split the crest.

After all, Rin isn't hurting for new circuits (it'd be a drop in the bucket at this point), and I'm sure there's some redundancy in terms of knowledge built-in.

deviatesfish
January 26th, 2012, 05:02 AM
You'd have to bring that up to Tokiomi, who will be the one who ultimately decides.

Garlak
January 26th, 2012, 05:13 AM
Hrm.


Can we study Elemental Affinities and/or Origins?

Or is that too advanced or something?


Elemental Affinities at the least should be useful, and would be a start into figuring out what we can do with all the circuits we have.

I3uster
January 26th, 2012, 05:17 AM
I disagree with that, but this isn't the place to debate the functions of a game mechanic... What I say goes. However, you are free to pursue the path of numerology... except you will need to persuade the others to change their vote.

You have already far surpassed Sakura in magecraft, so you're probably going to be getting the crest and Sakura will have to face a future of horrendous torture. It's either/or, and Rin doesn't know what's to come anyway.
Okay, this sounds like Reinforcement might be the better idea after all.


Sacrilege as it may be, this may be one of the few instances where it's acceptable to split the crest.

After all, Rin isn't hurting for new circuits (it'd be a drop in the bucket at this point), and I'm sure there's some redundancy in terms of knowledge built-in.
Uh, you do realize that this requires a sorcery trait, one that the Tohsaka do not have?


Hrm.


Can we study Elemental Affinities and/or Origins?

Or is that too advanced or something?


Elemental Affinities at the least should be useful, and would be a start into figuring out what we can do with all the circuits we have.
We know both if Fish has not changed them, so why would we need research here?

deviatesfish
January 26th, 2012, 05:26 AM
I'm not saying Reinforcement is better, just that with a ridiculous amount of prana, you can do a lot of things.

Yesh, you are Average One. What is Rin's Origin?

Garlak
January 26th, 2012, 05:55 AM
Er, I thought you kinda implied that the 300 also had their Elemental Affinities?

And I thought that with the addition of the hive mind, Rin's affinities might have changed a bit. Kinda like how Avalon changed Shirou's Affinity to match his Origin I think?


I figured looking into the divination and tarot and such that is required for Elemental Affinity, we might get some insight into what the 300 are capable of, and if Rin has any additional utility/specialty from having the hivemind.

I3uster
January 26th, 2012, 07:42 AM
I'm not saying Reinforcement is better, just that with a ridiculous amount of prana, you can do a lot of things.

Yesh, you are Average One. What is Rin's Origin?
The 5th (or was it 6th) imaginary element (yeah, seriously)

Unless that changed due to lolhivemind. But finding out ORigins isn't easy anyway, and in most cases it does not provide any advantages unless you can awaken it, but that comes almost always hand in hand with loss of control, not to mention that it's so far out of our current skill range it's not even funny.

Well, we know for a fact that Gemcraft is something she can do well, but the problem is that it takes a while to get a good arsenal of gems, so if we want to go down that route we should start NOW. And pour all our ressources into it so that we can leisurly build a good arsenal while learning another offensive magecraft (at least that would be my suggestion).

Numerology is a great offensive magecraft because it is incredibly quick, so reacting to it is almost impossible, and it can be used as non-lethal weapon to avoid discovery. Compared to fire magecraft, which is loud, slower, painful, and in most cases lethal. Even if we want to go for ADVENTURES! we shouldn't mentally scar poor Rin with screams and charred corpses, no?

Familliar study is also very useful imo. Scouts are nice, and combat familiars can compensate our lack of physical strength. Also, more knowledge in familliars might be good if the masses here want to go up against Zouken.

Erlkonig
January 26th, 2012, 07:43 AM
[x] Okay we studied enough, time to be slackers

Spinach
January 26th, 2012, 07:48 AM
[x] Go play at the park!

whosaidthat
January 26th, 2012, 08:42 AM
Instead of split the crest, we split the family. We have more than enough circuits to learn everything on the crest by brute force alone, so we can give it to Sakura. While doing that we make another branch for Tohsaka's family, one that will start with Rin's ridiculously massive Magic Circuits and knowledge.

Play in the Park. Make a game of 'Structural Analysis of EVERYTHING'. Think about the BLACKMAIL!

Also, the manifestation of wishes and spiritual possession is the 6th Hypothetical Element, the 6th Theoretical is the Anti-Element.

I3uster
January 26th, 2012, 08:52 AM
And then recieve a sealing designation.

Cool plan, bro. But thinking that we can somehow avoid the situation of giving Sakura away is foolish. We just need to find a better family and for that we need to uncover Zouken first.

Mike1984
January 26th, 2012, 09:04 AM
I think that you can definitely avoid having to give Sakura away. Even just uncovering Zouken should have that effect, ultimately, because there's nowhere else for her to do.

I3uster
January 26th, 2012, 09:09 AM
I am sure that Tokiomi can make contacts with other Mage families, the Matou can't be the only dying lineage.

Larekko12
January 26th, 2012, 09:14 AM
Welp we can always ask uncle Kariya not to bean idiot and spit it out at ocst of reinforced Leg to the knees or balls and mention daddy has been drinking more and why if we find out in time.

Mike1984
January 26th, 2012, 09:18 AM
I am sure that Tokiomi can make contacts with other Mage families, the Matou can't be the only dying lineage.

Maybe, but I don't think it's a good idea to take Sakura away from Zouken only to put her in another family that could be even worse, and with less possibility of later rescue.

Bloble
January 26th, 2012, 09:21 AM
Mike, we are in the body of a child. There is no possible way for us to convince Tokiomi not to give Sakura away.

Anyway, it's not IC for Rin to slack off, so I say study Reinforcement.

whosaidthat
January 26th, 2012, 09:24 AM
And then recieve a sealing designation.

Cool plan, bro. But thinking that we can somehow avoid the situation of giving Sakura away is foolish. We just need to find a better family and for that we need to uncover Zouken first.

We have more than enough power to have a sealing designation the moment we step in the clock tower. That hardly counts for anything unless we never leave this place, or we start to downplaying lil Rin abilities.

As for Zouken, who says they don't really know what is happening? At least on the sense of 'unspeakable horrors are happening to my (former) kid?' They knew well enough that the Makiri/Matou family would participate on the war and yet sent Sakura there. They don't give two shits if Sakura will be worm food so long they uphold their contract.

I3uster
January 26th, 2012, 09:33 AM
We have more than enough power to have a sealing designation the moment we step in the clock tower. That hardly counts for anything unless we never leave this place, or we start to downplaying lil Rin abilities.

As for Zouken, who says they don't really know what is happening? At least on the sense of 'unspeakable horrors are happening to my (former) kid?' They knew well enough that the Makiri/Matou family would participate on the war and yet sent Sakura there. They don't give two shits if Sakura will be worm food so long they uphold their contract.
Before I have that debate with you too I'd like you to read through this thread, because I already had it there 3 times or so, and it's canon that he did it for her best interests (just read the post I linked to):
http://forums.nrvnqsr.com/showthread.php/1106-Who-is-your-favorite-Fate-Zero-Master?p=445017#post445017

I don't want Fish to lose interest in this just because this breaks out into another needless debate. So lets focus on what's important.

Mike1984
January 26th, 2012, 09:45 AM
We have more than enough power to have a sealing designation the moment we step in the clock tower. That hardly counts for anything unless we never leave this place, or we start to downplaying lil Rin abilities.

As for Zouken, who says they don't really know what is happening? At least on the sense of 'unspeakable horrors are happening to my (former) kid?' They knew well enough that the Makiri/Matou family would participate on the war and yet sent Sakura there. They don't give two shits if Sakura will be worm food so long they uphold their contract.

No, that's entirely untrue. Tokiomi explicitly says that he cares for Sakura and wanted her to have the chance to be a magus in her own right. He wouldn't have sent her if he knew Zouken's true intentions.

whosaidthat
January 26th, 2012, 12:30 PM
If that's the case then we run into another problem:

Either we can't really help lil'Sakura at all due to some problem, ranging from either Popa own unknown interference and future implications on the why we know fact A or B, or the possible competence (or lack of) in realizing whatever plans we might make. In this case the only thing we can do is to run damage control, either during the HGW we 'kidnap' Sakura back to us since it is a war and damn the rules, or during HGW 5. Either way Sakura becomes worm food for longer than most is comfortable, which is at all.

Or we come up with a plan that can be enacted by lil'Rin, that conveniently explain any knowledge we shouldn't know AND figure out what to do next since we are back to the square one of the big mess that still can put either of lil'Rin or lil'Sakura into a dissection table.

The best I can think of is for us to 'stumble' on one family with magical potential and start patronizing them in order to develop their abilities, short of making them our vassals or something. Maybe the family that will become the sacrifice for Ryuunosuke, or Shirou's family. One interesting on the later is the fact that apparently the ability to manifest a RM need some kind of talent and being utterly broken and alien just help into pushing it over the edge.

I3uster
January 26th, 2012, 12:33 PM
Well, if we manage to turn her into Rin Tohsaka: Magic Secret Agent we could try to infiltrate the Matou mansion and find proof.

We don't even have to go personally if we send a familliar to fetch a worm or something. The problem is getting noticed by bounded fields...

The reason? Lil'Rin was suspicious of that old man she saw on the street. Or something like that.

whosaidthat
January 26th, 2012, 12:36 PM
I'm sure the Matous should be very good at bounded fields, if only to help on their less rapestastic branch of magecraft which was about Absorption. Even Kiritsugu could at best break the fields instead of enter there and pretend they dont exist.

We still arent good enough to help Rin maker her own spells like that.

I3uster
January 26th, 2012, 12:41 PM
Well, if we can't learn it quick enough then we have to act after worm-raping, but I'd prefer trying to attempt it before.

Maybe we could get Uncle Hobo to not behave like an idiot this time around...

Larekko12
January 26th, 2012, 12:51 PM
Practice reinforcement and analysis. We get good enough we can see that zouken is a Vampire worm guy and needs to be detroyed.

whosaidthat
January 26th, 2012, 01:02 PM
As strange as it sounds Larekko's plan is the best backup plan we have for now.

deviatesfish
January 26th, 2012, 02:18 PM
I am sure that Tokiomi can make contacts with other Mage families, the Matou can't be the only dying lineage.

If you can think of one that could compensate him better than the Matou, more power to you.

Mike1984
January 26th, 2012, 02:19 PM
What do you mean "compensate him"?

Bloble
January 26th, 2012, 02:33 PM
What do you mean "compensate him"?

Well it's not like he chose the Matou because they were the only ones available. If he had found another family that would be able to offer him and Sakura a better deal he might have decided to give her to them instead.

Mike1984
January 26th, 2012, 02:35 PM
Well, I don't think he gained much "compensation" from it, though, at least not directly.

And, yeah, he actually did choose the Matou because they were the "only ones available". They were the ones who made the offer, not Tokiomi. Tokiomi just accepted it because he thought it was in Sakura's best interests.

I3uster
January 26th, 2012, 02:38 PM
If you can think of one that could compensate him better than the Matou, more power to you.
For now we should focus on him not giving her away.

Zeranion
January 26th, 2012, 02:58 PM
Alright, I'm gonna bring up a possible plan that I know I stated in the other thread.

Next time we see Kariya, we have to ask him "Why didn't you want to inherit the Matou magecraft."

We can use "childish curiostiy" as an excuse, and then if Kariya says he doesn't want to talk about it childishly we might say, "maybe Sakura could learn for you!"

Cue Kariya freaking out and probably either telling us the whole truth or making us promise to never bring that up again.

Then, when Tokiomi plans to give Sakura to the Matou's we can use the knowledge and beg him not to do it based on what Kariya says. If Tokiomi plays it off as Kariya being too weak to follow the path of a magus, then we can beg him to at least contact Kariya first and tell him what he's planning. Even if Kariya doesn't know everything since he didn't inherit the school, I'm sure he knows enough for him to dissuade Tokiomi from picking the Matous.

What do you guys think?

whosaidthat
January 26th, 2012, 04:12 PM
Better than absolutely nothing, though it assumes Tokiomi will let us speak and witness the whole thing. I'm not really sure if we can just go and ask another family about their magecraft school too.

I think it's one of those things you teach your kids right away since it does make things awkward later at the very least.

Zevrand
January 26th, 2012, 04:14 PM
Uh, you do realize that this requires a sorcery trait, one that the Tohsaka do not have?

That's dual inheritance, which as far as I can tell means that they manage to actually 'clone' their crest somehow.

Also, the Tohsakas somehow stole part of the Edenfelt's crest anyway, which implies that you can mix and match bits.

Asking Uncle Kariya seems like a decent plan. Subtle, but effective.

If they start going through with it, though... apparently your status of 'being able to be a master in the grail war' is predefined and atemporal, so Rin's now-alternate future summoning of Archer should make her a designated potential master even this early. It may be the nuclear option, but we have more than enough raw power to summon EMIYA *without* grail backup into the caster class.

That said: Deviates, what kind of magecraft does Rin know about that either require buttloads of magical energy or scales well with it? Obviously projection is one of those, but what else?

deviatesfish
January 26th, 2012, 04:14 PM
Well, if you take the action, you'll see at least a reaction from Rin first

Kumoatsu
January 26th, 2012, 04:21 PM
I like zeranions plan of asking. Then pushing slightly on the subject when it comes up.

Satehi
January 26th, 2012, 04:32 PM
The 5th (or was it 6th) imaginary element (yeah, seriously)

架空元素を起源とする冬木市の管理者

HolySeraph
January 26th, 2012, 04:39 PM
Then, when Tokiomi plans to give Sakura to the Matou's we can use the knowledge and beg him not to do it based on what Kariya says. If Tokiomi plays it off as Kariya being too weak to follow the path of a magus, then we can beg him to at least contact Kariya first and tell him what he's planning. Even if Kariya doesn't know everything since he didn't inherit the school, I'm sure he knows enough for him to dissuade Tokiomi from picking the Matous.

What do you guys think?
I think the bolded part may be more difficult to overcome.

Zevrand
January 26th, 2012, 04:40 PM
□ □ □ □ □ □ □ □ □ □ □ □ □ □ □ □ □

Is that Zalgotext, or Japanese? I can't tell on this computer.

In either case, would it be possible for you to put it in English so I can read it?

whosaidthat
January 26th, 2012, 04:49 PM
Is that Zalgotext, or Japanese? I can't tell on this computer.

In either case, would it be possible for you to put it in English so I can read it?

Kanji. Translates more or less as "the manager of the imaginary element originating in Fuyuki".

Satehi
January 26th, 2012, 04:49 PM
No, if I were to share meanings of the syntax of the native language from the country in which the writer for Type-Moon hails from with everyone, the power of the mystery would decrease.



Actually, I don't have a word for word translation of that. It's from CM2, basically tags Rin as the overseer of Fuyuki with an Imaginary Element Origin, which is probably responsible for her being an Average One.

I3uster
January 26th, 2012, 05:09 PM
That's dual inheritance, which as far as I can tell means that they manage to actually 'clone' their crest somehow.

Also, the Tohsakas somehow stole part of the Edenfelt's crest anyway, which implies that you can mix and match bits.
That's like asking your daddy if you can smash the Ming vase so that both you and your sister can wear it as a hat.

whosaidthat
January 26th, 2012, 05:16 PM
That's like asking your daddy if you can smash the Ming vase so that both you and your sister can wear it as a hat.

Your point is?

Zevrand
January 26th, 2012, 05:57 PM
That's like asking your daddy if you can smash the Ming vase so that both you and your sister can wear it as a hat.

That analogy is poor, given that both pieces would still be functional and there's a greater net gain. It's more like 'daddy, I already have a diversified portfolio performing well above the market. Instead of giving me the house and all the investments, just give me the house and don't leave Sakura empty-handed'

We know for certain that crests remain functional when split, since there was the partial crest transplant Rin pulled off to give some of hers to Shirou. Admittedly, it would reject him after a week, but that was only because he wasn't related to the Tohsakas.

Zeranion
January 26th, 2012, 06:11 PM
This still isn't something we should approach Tokiomi about. A Magus's crest and lineage is everything. One heir and one heir only in order to maximize the heir's ability and potential to take the magecraft to even greater heights. Rin doesn't even know about the Edelfelt crest, and Tokiomi probably hasn't told her. If she were to learn about it, then maybe she could make that a project and even pull Tokiomi into it.

However, without that project in mind I do not believe that asking Tokiomi to split the crest is a good idea. He loves his daughters yes, but he is still a proud magus. Maybe we can try and get lessons on the history of our family and the crest. If we hear from him that we have a fragment of the Edelfelt crest and that the Edelfelts sorcery trait was the ability to have two lines, then we can try to reverse engineer it from the crest in an attempt to give Sakura a chance.

deviatesfish
January 26th, 2012, 06:18 PM
That's like asking your daddy if you can smash the Ming vase so that both you and your sister can wear it as a hat.

Yep.

I3uster
January 26th, 2012, 06:23 PM
That analogy is poor, given that both pieces would still be functional and there's a greater net gain. It's more like 'daddy, I already have a diversified portfolio performing well above the market. Instead of giving me the house and all the investments, just give me the house and don't leave Sakura empty-handed'

We know for certain that crests remain functional when split, since there was the partial crest transplant Rin pulled off to give some of hers to Shirou. Admittedly, it would reject him after a week, but that was only because he wasn't related to the Tohsakas.

I'll give you a better analogy then:
Mages try to build the highest tower (their crest) to reach the clouds (the root).
If you split your high tower into two smaller towers, it is counterproductive.

deviatesfish
January 26th, 2012, 06:55 PM
I'll give you a better analogy then:
Mages try to build the highest tower (their crest) to reach the clouds (the root).
If you split your high tower into two smaller towers, it is counterproductive.

Why do the clouds keep floating higher?

I3uster
January 26th, 2012, 07:00 PM
Because God hates us.

deviatesfish
January 26th, 2012, 07:03 PM
If God existed, God does not exist in Nasuverse. >:3

whosaidthat
January 26th, 2012, 07:27 PM
If God existed, God does not exist in Nasuverse. >:3

The best they have really doesn't give two fucks to anyone. if they don't have the name Kokutou Mikiya

Tetsurō
January 26th, 2012, 09:45 PM
[x] Study Reinforcement.

drake_azathoth
January 26th, 2012, 10:29 PM
[x] Study Reinforcement (This seems like the most immediately rewarding, although I do also favor Numerology)

whosaidthat
January 27th, 2012, 06:11 AM
Use structural grasp on EVERYTHING;
Study Reinforcement;
Study Projection;
Study Numerology;
See text;

Structural grasp is apparently basic and cheap enough that we use it to train how to better use each of our individual circuits. If we could open/close any specific circuit in demand, or at least the initial 40 Rin had, it will increase a lot the control. Another benefit comes with better understanding of the physical world, and as much as the magi like to ignore it, it's were they live and were they do their research.

Better understanding of the physical world means better reinforcement on the long run. If anything, you can improve your control greatly.

Better understanding of the physical world also means better projection. Probably we will never get to the point of Shirou, but maybe there is room to conduct a research and make our own jewels on demand, instead of using our (future) near depleted capital on one shot items.

With numerology, since it is incredibly quick, we can use it's principles for a lot of practical applications, freeing precious time for research. If we can combine the numerology speed, a (good enough) projected gem and some kind of spell to absorb mana from the air into the gem, we can have a greater quantity of gems to burn in the future.

Freeing time for us to go after the true gold: Zelretch.

On a different note, what are the magical properties of quartz? I heard in real life it have something to do with 'storing energy' or something.

deviatesfish
January 27th, 2012, 02:51 PM
You began studying Reinforcement, but Poppa restricted you from using it on yourself. Instead, he taught you how to reinforce certain aspects of a crystal first. You picked this up quickly, even faster than Rin did in actuality. However, your unique situation helped you to understand it from multiple perspectives…

…by the end of the week, you could make a crystal smoother, harder, or even shinier. Of course, you did break several crystals when your prana got out of control when you initially started, but that was no problem for you because you knew how to fix crystals by now. What was a problem, however, was that a crystal is simple in its form… you found it harder to reinforce more difficult things the less you understood them.

Still, you reached a point where you could not reinforce things any longer without greater understanding of them… leading to your next assignment to yourself.

You approached Poppa at the end of the week while Sakura and Momma were out dong shopping and showed him your grasp at reinforcement with crystals. The tiny gem you held in your hand refracted light so many times in that instant that, even though you were in a dimly lit room, it looked like a tiny flashlight.

“You’ve done well.” Poppa clapped twice before your lightshow stopped, “and does this mean you want to learn something else again, my curious daughter?”

“Uh!” You smiled happily, “I want to learn how to… structural… how to analyze… erm… How to study things?”

Poppa chuckled and patted you gently before showing you how to use structural analysis. He seemed to be slightly puzzled why you wanted to learn something so… simple, but seemed to rationalize it being a child’s curiosity at work.

The act of analyzing seemed easy enough and you grasped the basic concept of it within a day. But then you realized that, unlike the other characters you may know, you can’t just analyze the structure of physical objects without concentrating your prana through it. This usually took you several minutes before you could understand the composition of a more complex item, like an automobile. But due to your rather… vast and diverse… well of knowledge, you found that you could understand things on a deeper level than Emiya Shirou ever could. It did not necessarily mean it was a good thing however, because this only made your process of analyzing take even more time.

You found that you had an easier time analyzing prana and actual spells than physical objects, but not by much. This was mostly due to Rin’s talent for magecraft that you were able to understand magecraft better with structural analysis. Still, it was interesting using this new technique on simple things like the swings at the park or the jewelry that Uncle Kariya gave you.

You saw the world in a different light, as did Rin. Some of your deeper understanding of atoms and molecules and the smaller, more scientific things in the world seemed to bleed off to her once again. This only fueled her curiosity for learning and in turn fueled your own as well.

Somewhere near the end of this week, you found out you could analyze yourself… and then analyze what effects of reinforcement did to you. You did this on whim, without Poppa watching. Thankfully, you didn’t blow your body apart, but you found out many things about yourself and learned at least a basic theory behind how to apply reinforcement to your own body by the end of the month.

[Character Sheet]
Name: Tohsaka Rin
Height: 122 cm
Weight: 28 kg
Magic Circuits: 40 (6040)
Output: 400 (1600)

Familiars: Rank --
Item Construction: Rank --
Jewel Magecraft: Rank E (E)
Martial Arts: Rank F (F+)
Numerology: Rank --
Reinforcement: Rank F (D)
Structural Analysis: Rank F (D)

By the end of the month, Momma didn’t feel very well and did not take you or Sakura to the park this week. Poppa was busy with work or something like it, so you couldn’t bother him either. Sakura approached you with tears in her eyes, “R-Rin, I’m lonely…!”

“Oh, Sakura…” You hugged her, “Come here. You have me, you know? Always…”

“B-But Momma is sick and Poppa is busy and Unca Kariya doesn’t come…” She sniffled, “I…” She ducked her head shyly and fidgeted with her fingers.

“I wish we had more friends too,” You replied, “B-but at least we have each other… right?”

“Rin…”

“Sakura…”

[ ] Friend? Make a Familiar!
[ ] Comfort Sakura by teaching her magecraft…
[ ] Take her out to the park, maybe you’ll meet Unca Kariya?
[ ] Other

SeiKeo
January 27th, 2012, 02:53 PM
Get her a kitten friend familiar.

Bloble
January 27th, 2012, 02:57 PM
Make her a familiar and tell her to pinky promise that she'll keep it secret forever! It'll be just between you two!

...actually, now that I see Rin having no Ranks in Familiars, we'd better not do something that could blow up in our face or accidentally summon House Husband Archer.

Take her to the park.

Mike1984
January 27th, 2012, 02:59 PM
Take her to the park.

Kratosirving
January 27th, 2012, 03:03 PM
@Blob oh god House Husband rofl.


Take imouto to park!

Tetsurō
January 27th, 2012, 03:03 PM
Make each other each other's Familiar?

Mike1984
January 27th, 2012, 03:04 PM
Bloble: what would be so bad about summoning House Husband Archer, exactly? That timeline ends up a lot better than canon....

deviatesfish
January 27th, 2012, 03:04 PM
yeah, if you do try for familiar, there's a 1% chance of Emiya being summoned.

EDIT: depending on the method you use to make/summon the familiar of course.

Yun
January 27th, 2012, 03:10 PM
Better understanding of the physical world also means better projection. Probably we will never get to the point of Shirou, but maybe there is room to conduct a research and make our own jewels on demand, instead of using our (future) near depleted capital on one shot items.
They aren't generally used as one shot items.


With numerology, since it is incredibly quick, we can use it's principles for a lot of practical applications, freeing precious time for research. If we can combine the numerology speed, a (good enough) projected gem and some kind of spell to absorb mana from the air into the gem, we can have a greater quantity of gems to burn in the future.
Your plan won't work because projection isn't permanent unless you have a excellent understanding of what your trying to project and the materials necessary to actually make the item you want to project.
"The most difficult of the RAP trio. Also, the most useless in combat. Thaumaturgy where a mirror image of an original object is physically materialized through Prana. Normally, gradation air is used to project, as a substitute for a ritual, a "lost" object for only a few minutes within one's own time axis. Not efficient at all, under normal circumstances. Best thought of as a video rental where you only get the cover of the video and not the video itself, in these cases. Of course, that cover itself is close to the original physically."

......Preparation of the needed materials as well as the appropriate knowledge of whatever's being constructed in addition to the overlaying of one's own image on top of those materials is the normal way of stabilizing the projected item to get something close to the original. Rin originally planned on having Shirou use this method to make Zelretch.


On a different note, what are the magical properties of quartz? I heard in real life it have something to do with 'storing energy' or something.Rin excells at storing prana inside of objects due to her Sorcery Trait with gems being used due to their high prana storing capacity and the fact that prana stored in them also acquires special properties(ex prana stored in a topaz gem gains anti spirit properties)

Bloble
January 27th, 2012, 03:15 PM
Bloble: what would be so bad about summoning House Husband Archer, exactly? That timeline ends up a lot better than canon....

Yeah, but it wouldn't be as fun. This is Magus Quest, not DAWWWWWW SO HEARTWARMING Quest. Emiya showing up would be awesome, but we'd probably be delegated to a side role.

Although, just saying, if we were to try and summon a familiar, maybe we should see if we can get our hands on that fancy jewel necklace for bonus Emiya chances.

Tetsurō
January 27th, 2012, 03:21 PM
Reinforcement would increase the amount of Prana each jewel could hold before it fell apart, something we should show Papa. Numerology and Alchemy are both things that should be looked into, one for the possibility of creating jewels out of cheep materials (there are more than a few methods of artifically creating them scientifically thus it is doable) while the other is simply dead useful across the board.

Larekko12
January 27th, 2012, 04:46 PM
[x]Go to the park and go hunting for friends or to wherever little kids hang out. If there is an Arcade go there.

deviatesfish
January 27th, 2012, 04:55 PM
Unca...

There is an arcade... Probably. You some of the other kids in the park talking about it but from their perspective it seems kind of far...

...also if you figure out how to make diamonds through magecraft, more power to you.

Yun
January 27th, 2012, 04:56 PM
[ ] Take her out to the park, maybe you’ll meet Unca Kariya?


Although, just saying, if we were to try and summon a familiar, maybe we should see if we can get our hands on that fancy jewel necklace for bonus Emiya chances.Isn't that jewel not finished yet or shortly going to be stored away?

Reinforcement would increase the amount of Prana each jewel could hold before it fell apart, something we should show Papa. Er what exactly are you trying to say here? Because reinforcing an object requires a Prana drain over time making it worthless for improving a jewel for storing prana....


Numerology and Alchemy are both things that should be looked into, one for the possibility of creating jewels out of cheep materials (there are more than a few methods of artifically creating them scientifically thus it is doable) while the other is simply dead useful across the board.Yes it is doable but you don't get any of the special properties none artificially made jewels give prana stored in them, and we'll probably run into issues of reliability and/or jewels that only store a small amount of prana due to the jewels being made from cheap materials.

Tetsurō
January 27th, 2012, 06:24 PM
[ ] Take her out to the park, maybe you’ll meet Unca Kariya?
Isn't that jewel not finished yet or shortly going to be stored away?
Er what exactly are you trying to say here? Because reinforcing an object requires a Prana drain over time making it worthless for improving a jewel for storing prana....Over time, yes...meaning that in the relative short term it would be an improvement, and who knows what discoveries could be made to power the relatively low-level art of Reinforcement for longer, a magical form of transduction?

Yes it is doable but you don't get any of the special properties none artificially made jewels give prana stored in them, and we'll probably run into issues of reliability and/or jewels that only store a small amount of prana due to the jewels being made from cheap materials....wtf?
You do know that all jewels, both artificial and natural are made out of elements that are cheep and relatively plentiful in their natural state? Like carbon, aluminium, silicon and whatever and that their value is determined by act of man ascribing value to them based on how shiny they are? And where do you get that artifically formed jewels won't hold prana or at least a lot less prana? The only difference between artifical jewels and the real ones, other than compounds added to show that they are artifical which isn't required by any law that I know of and isn't vital to their forming, is simply the time frame they take in forming, otherwise they are identical.

Bloble
January 27th, 2012, 06:36 PM
I'm guessing natural jewels are older and thus have more 'history' or 'mystery' and are possibly made in the Age of Gods and are thus better than ordinary jewels.

But really, I dunno. Canon is weird sometimes.

alfheimwanderer
January 27th, 2012, 06:44 PM
If God existed, God does not exist in Nasuverse. >:3

Actually he does. Its just after creating everything, he decided to go on a permanent vacation, almost as if Creation was a major thesis project for finishing college or something.

deviatesfish
January 27th, 2012, 07:00 PM
I'm guessing natural jewels are older and thus have more 'history' or 'mystery' and are possibly made in the Age of Gods and are thus better than ordinary jewels.

But really, I dunno. Canon is weird sometimes.

Nasu is unreliable narrator, so screw canon.

Satehi
January 27th, 2012, 07:01 PM
Actually he does. Its just after creating everything, he decided to go on a permanent vacation, almost as if Creation was a major thesis project for finishing college or something.

If you're talking the Nasuverse, may I have source?

whosaidthat
January 27th, 2012, 07:02 PM
They aren't generally used as one shot items.

Except when they are. One thing is to not have your time wasted by emptying the stored energy, another is when you really need it and the thing blow up in your enemies face, which a magus should have more than enough, specially considering the upcoming events.


Your plan won't work because projection isn't permanent unless you have a excellent understanding of what your trying to project and the materials necessary to actually make the item you want to project.
"The most difficult of the RAP trio. Also, the most useless in combat. Thaumaturgy where a mirror image of an original object is physically materialized through Prana. Normally, gradation air is used to project, as a substitute for a ritual, a "lost" object for only a few minutes within one's own time axis. Not efficient at all, under normal circumstances. Best thought of as a video rental where you only get the cover of the video and not the video itself, in these cases. Of course, that cover itself is close to the original physically."

......Preparation of the needed materials as well as the appropriate knowledge of whatever's being constructed in addition to the overlaying of one's own image on top of those materials is the normal way of stabilizing the projected item to get something close to the original. Rin originally planned on having Shirou use this method to make Zelretch.

Yes, I saw the route too. It's not supposed to be permanent. Notice the use of one shot items before.

The idea was to project a gem good enough that won't shatter on the first five minutes of existence and that was close enough to a true gem to hold some prana, then use the inherent speed of Numerology to quickly (as in less than a few minutes) store the gathered mana from the ambient and have quick and dirty gems for simple things or when you need quantity over quality.

That's precisely why I asked to use structural grasp on EVERYTHING. To have a better understanding of the physical world. There is just how many times you can look at a wall of concrete or a piece of glass before you start to understand and memorise it's composition and that knowledge to bleed off to other subjects.


Rin excells at storing prana inside of objects due to her Sorcery Trait with gems being used due to their high prana storing capacity and the fact that prana stored in them also acquires special properties(ex prana stored in a topaz gem gains anti spirit properties)

Yes, that's pretty much what I implied and you confirmed, yet you didn't answered my question on what quartz do. Is that just a larger than normal battery or it can do something else?


Over time, yes...meaning that in the relative short term it would be an improvement, and who knows what discoveries could be made to power the relatively low-level art of Reinforcement for longer, a magical form of transduction?
...wtf?
You do know that all jewels, both artificial and natural are made out of elements that are cheep and relatively plentiful in their natural state? Like carbon, aluminium, silicon and whatever and that their value is determined by act of man ascribing value to them based on how shiny they are? And where do you get that artifically formed jewels won't hold prana or at least a lot less prana? The only difference between artifical jewels and the real ones, other than compounds added to show that they are artifical which isn't required by any law that I know of and isn't vital to their forming, is simply the time frame they take in forming, otherwise they are identical.

Who else but a magus could perfect the process and add his own brand of impurities on the gem and make it look like a natural version?

Besides, diamond price is inflated by a cartel, not by it's worth.


*Jewels and history and mystery and stuff

Specific jewels might have all that, but they would be powerful magic items on their own already.

alfheimwanderer
January 27th, 2012, 07:15 PM
If you're talking the Nasuverse, may I have source?

As I recall, its from DDD, though also mentioned on Fuyuki wiki.

Since I don't have a copy of DDD in front of me, I'll pull from Fuyuki instead:


"If God's a phenomenon that's perfect and flawless while omniscient and omnipotent, demons are phenomena that are absurd and intangible. Back in the old days, demons used to be thought of as messengers of God, but God and demons are completely different; how people are suffering under demons isn't being heard by him. Since demons are incompetent, they hang around humans, but God doesn't care about humans. Doesn't care about faith and no interest in how humans have fun or suffer; since of course, he just needs himself. That's what it means to be omniscient and omnipotent.

So the only thing he has ever had to say to us is "Bug off, don't bother me."

Larekko12
January 27th, 2012, 07:29 PM
Hum Learn chemistry. Learn Alteration Get some diamonds and coal. Strutural grasp. Get to altering. Profit?

Satehi
January 27th, 2012, 07:30 PM
Ah, that.

Having my pdf copy of DDD open, something that deserves note, the closest phrase I can find in JtheE, is from the main character, Ishizue Arika, which I really can't say he's a reliable source of information. The phrase in question is as follows.


“We can’t do anything about it, but your feelings aren’t going to reach him.
Demons and God are hopelessly different. Demons are powerless so they deal
with humans, but God doesn’t give a rat’s ass about us. He doesn’t care about
faith, and he has no interest in how we indulge ourselves or how we suffer. Of
course he wouldn’t; he’s sufficient all by his lonesome. That’s what it means to be
all-knowing and all-powerful. God won’t save you. Since way back, there’s only
been one thing that God’s been saying.”

And well, can't exactly say he would be an expert on this type of thing. This is pretty much in response to this, from someone suffering from the Agonist's disorder:


“NO, HELP, HELP, GOD HELP……! IT HURTS, WHY DOES THIS HURT
SO MUCH, WHY DOES THIS HAVE TO HAPPEN TO ME, ITS NOT MY FAULT,
I’M NOT SICK, THIS POSSESSION ISN’T MY FAULT, GOD, I’D BEEN ONLY
CHOSEN BY GOD……!”

So uh, don't really believe that as exact proof of whether the Hebrew God exists in Nasuverse. That phrase you quoted doesn't exactly prove it either, TBH. It sounds more like "If God exists, he doesn't care about us because all he needs is himself."

alfheimwanderer
January 27th, 2012, 07:38 PM
So uh, don't really believe that as exact proof of whether the Hebrew God exists in Nasuverse. That phrase you quoted doesn't exactly prove it either, TBH. It sounds more like "If God exists, he doesn't care about us because all he needs is himself."

True. I can accept that he simply might not exist, though in the end, its the same difference, right? If he exists and doesn't give a rat's ass vs if he doesn't exist, the result is that he effectively isn't there.

Lycodrake
January 27th, 2012, 07:39 PM
...not sure what to say to this line of conversation. ^^;;;

Satehi
January 27th, 2012, 07:42 PM
True. I can accept that he simply might not exist, though in the end, its the same difference, right? If he exists and doesn't give a rat's ass vs if he doesn't exist, the result is that he effectively isn't there.

True, true. I was just wondering if anything new came up, or if anyone who knows more about DDD then I would be willing to step up and spine crush so that I might be more enlightened.

deviatesfish
January 27th, 2012, 07:50 PM
Hm, you'd just have to study more gem magecraft to find out...

...Or you could studying just random things that Tokiomi tells you to study...

Bloble
January 27th, 2012, 08:43 PM
Well, I'm inclined to take the advice of a well versed magi, so listening to Tokiomi sounds like a good idea.

(And we'll study extra behind his back!)

deviatesfish
January 27th, 2012, 09:06 PM
Anyway, so everyone wants to slack off and sneak to the park huh?

Kratosirving
January 27th, 2012, 09:08 PM
I dunno about everyone else, but I just wanna take Duckura to the park to play with her kin. :3

Yun
January 27th, 2012, 09:24 PM
Okay I'm seriously confused why everyone is so eager to learn Numerology which is a magecraft Rin's lineage has no proficiency with and we have no direct resource to help us learn it instead of focusing on gem magecraft which the Tohsakas are noted to "especially skilled at" and "Allows for the instant use of high thaumaturgy."? because we really aren't playing to Rin's strengths......

Over time, yes...meaning that in the relative short term it would be an improvement, and who knows what discoveries could be made to power the relatively low-level art of Reinforcement for longer, a magical form of transduction?The drain for reinforcement is constant so why exactly would Rin want to be in constant pain?(excluding the fact that the prana used to reinforce the gems could instead be stored in gems) Also circuits are already magical transducers(converting Mana to Od or using Mana to preform Formal Craft) unless you were referring to something else?


The only difference between artifical jewels and the real ones, other than compounds added to show that they are artifical which isn't required by any law that I know of and isn't vital to their forming, is simply the time frame they take in forming, otherwise they are identical.Than why exactly do the Tohsakas use expensive jewels instead of simply making their own jewels? Also we're limited by the fact that she makes them using the excess prana in her blood.
"Transferring magical energy… well, for example, you have excess strength left over if you do nothing for the whole day, right? I'm storing that excess power in the jewels.
You keep on doing this for days, months, and years, and that turns the jewels themselves into 'magic'."

Except when they are. One thing is to not have your time wasted by emptying the stored energy, another is when you really need it and the thing blow up in your enemies face, which a magus should have more than enough, specially considering the upcoming events.Considering Rin was only able to make 10 in the span of 10 years I doubt your going to be able to get that many more then those 10.


Yes, I saw the route too. It's not supposed to be permanent. Notice the use of one shot items before.

The idea was to project a gem good enough that won't shatter on the first five minutes of existence and that was close enough to a true gem to hold some prana, then use the inherent speed of Numerology to quickly (as in less than a few minutes) store the gathered mana from the ambient and have quick and dirty gems for simple things or when you need quantity over quality.That isn't possible per the VN and how the Tohsakas make the prana be stored in the gems gems using the excess prana in their blood."Even your strengthening is putting magical energy into something, right? Normally, whatever you put magical energy into changes in some way and uses up that magical energy. The effect of magic is instantaneous and not permanent, right?"


Yes, that's pretty much what I implied and you confirmed, yet you didn't answered my question on what quartz do. Is that just a larger than normal battery or it can do something else?I am not aware of quarts canonically having any special properties so whether it has any would be up to the GM.

Hum Learn chemistry. Learn Alteration Get some diamonds and coal. Strutural grasp. Get to altering. Profit?So you'd rather try to bribe a Master with money rather than have prana stored in Jewels increasing the likelihood that you won't die?

Larekko12
January 27th, 2012, 09:38 PM
Anyway, so everyone wants to slack off and sneak to the park huh?

Wait we don't have a scheduled park day for this?

Tetsurō
January 27th, 2012, 09:47 PM
Okay I'm seriously confused why everyone is so eager to learn Numerology which is a magecraft Rin's lineage has no proficiency with and we have no direct resource to help us learn it instead of focusing on gem magecraft which the Tohsakas are noted to "especially skilled at" and "Allows for the instant use of high thaumaturgy."? because we really aren't playing to Rin's strengths......I think too many people are looking at what's possible with it and not what we can do now...I admit I do have a passing interest with it also, but more of a means to an end with Alchemy in pursuit of a better gemcraft.


The drain for reinforcement is constant so why exactly would Rin want to be in constant pain?(excluding the fact that the prana used to reinforce the gems could instead be stored in gems) Also circuits are already magical transducers(converting Mana to Od or using Mana to preform Formal Craft) unless you were referring to something else?I was thinking of a more self-Reinfocing circuits, the more Reinforced the more facits the more prana stored the more it can be Reinforced the...et infintum, that sort of thing, if at all possible. As for the transduction thing, I meant that it was powered off of the stored prana as a byproduct effect of prana being stored within the jewel.

Than why exactly do the Tohsakas use expensive jewels instead of simply making their own jewels? Also we're limited by the fact that she makes them using the excess prana in her blood.Tradition would be a good place to start looking with mages, and the fact that I doubt any of them would be interested in trusting anything that used modern tech in anyway, but that's just my read.

Yun
January 27th, 2012, 09:59 PM
[]Spend some downtime with Sakura while Papa is busy and also ask Papa when he is available what he'd like for us to learn next.

I think too many people are looking at what's possible with it and not what we can do now...I admit I do have a passing interest with it also, but more of a means to an end with Alchemy in pursuit of a better gemcraft.It'd be better to simply store the prana instead of using it to save money by artificially making jewels.


I was thinking of a more self-Reinfocing circuits, the more Reinforced the more facits the more prana stored the more it can be Reinforced the...et infintum, that sort of thing, if at all possible. As for the transduction thing, I meant that it was powered off of the stored prana as a byproduct effect of prana being stored within the jewel.That is pretty much incompatible with the fact that circuits have a max capacity and do you really want to mess with something that is connected to your own nerves? Also I say it's simply better to spend the cash so you actually have a sufficient amount of prana stored when you actually need it....


Tradition would be a good place to start looking with mages, and the fact that I doubt any of them would be interested in trusting anything that used modern tech in anyway, but that's just my read.My read is it's more efficient then wasting the time and prana neccesary to make said artificial Jewels and the accumulated mystery the natural ones have from being stored underground make them worth the steep price you pay for them.

Kumoatsu
January 27th, 2012, 10:48 PM
[X] Lets do what sakura wants to do.

Tetsurō
January 27th, 2012, 11:19 PM
[]Spend some downtime with Sakura while Papa is busy and also ask Papa when he is available what he'd like for us to learn next.
It'd be better to simply store the prana instead of using it to save money by artificially making jewels.Based on what exactly?

That is pretty much incompatible with the fact that circuits have a max capacity and do you really want to mess with something that is connected to your own nerves? Also I say it's simply better to spend the cash so you actually have a sufficient amount of prana stored when you actually need it....Again, what are these assertions of your's based on? I couldn't find anything that implied that Magic Circuits were tied to nerves other than the fact that nerves were the body's attempt to copy the soul. Or that the artifical jewels couldn't store as much as real ones, what are you basing that off of? As for the storage, the more its Reinforced, the more Magic Circuits it could conceivibly take before breaking down.

My read is it's more efficient then wasting the time and prana neccesary to make said artificial Jewels and the accumulated mystery the natural ones have from being stored underground make them worth the steep price you pay for them.Even when you could make several jewels to every single natural, and even if you are right about their restrictions in prana stoarage, what's to say that the practice couldn't evolve to the point where it is more efficient to make artificial jewels in greater quantity and only slightly less quality?

deviatesfish
January 28th, 2012, 12:16 AM
Bwahaha!! Yes, live thread live!

Tetsurō
January 28th, 2012, 12:24 AM
Well, Jaina lives too^^ But we like this one as well...so [ ] Spar with Sakura, maybe play like those Ninja's on TV with their Chakra.

alfheimwanderer
January 28th, 2012, 12:55 AM
On the issue of circuits and nerves, there is the interesting observation that to stop the independent use of circuits, one must crush the brain. They're not nerves per-se, nor necessarily directly linked, (well, except in Shirou's case, where he turned nerves into circuits instead of using the ones he had), but each can affect the other. Further, as they are part of the soul, experimenting with them seems unwise - hence why magi generally do not try to increase the number of circuits after birth (before is a different issue, since the unborn to them haven't been trained and might not seem entirely human - note the alterations done to Illya in the womb).

Plus, if you meant self-reinforcing jewels, think of reinforcement as using prana to fill in the tiny voids left in an object, to enhance it to its fullest potential. If you've already reinforced an object, filling the space left for prana, how can you pour more prana into it for that purpose? Doing that is how Shirou breaks what he's trying to reinforce (overflow).

On Jewels in general, the Tohsaka prefer natural ones mostly because they have "slept beneath the surface for years", allowing nature spirits to manifest in them - staining the jewel with the alignment of that spirit and allowing the jewel to be used as a simple crest (to store prana for certain applications). An artificial jewel, while structurally the same, would not have the nature spirit within, so it can't be used for an application quickly. You might be able to store prana in it still, but you'd lose the ability to instantly use it to cast high thaumaturgy (actually focusing and such for an A-rank spell, for instance).

That's the main issue about artificial jewels in jewelcraft - not the storage capacity, but that they can't really be used as "crests" for instant activation of high-level spells.

Tetsurō
January 28th, 2012, 01:08 AM
Okay, thank you.

qsurf
January 28th, 2012, 03:59 AM
For whosaidthat:



Source: [/URL][URL]http://www.crystalsandjewelry.com/metaphysical_healing/stoneinfo/quartz.html (http://www.crystalsandjewelry.com/metaphysical_healing/stoneinfo/quartz.html)

Quartz is a power stone. It has been called the "Universal Crystal", and is the most recognized type of crystal. It's what many people envision when they think of crystals, even though there are many types of crystals. Quartz can be icy clear or have inclusions, veils, bubbles, etc. Visual clarity normally isn't important to a quartz crystal's energetic quality and ability to amplify subtle energies.Quartz enhances energy by absorbing, storing, amplifying, balancing, focusing and transmitting. It channels universal energy. Quartz also enhances thoughts, as they are a form of energy. Because it directs and amplifies energy, it is extremely beneficial for manifesting, healing, meditation, protection, and channeling. It is also beneficial for storing and retrieving information of all types, as information is a form of energy pattern also. This makes them particularly good for programming. Due to its ability to balance, quartz is excellent for harmonizing and balancing one's environment. Quartz is also good for energizing other crystals.Quartz is a stone of clarity which dispels negativity and clears away negative energy. It can be used to purify and clarify on the spiritual, mental, and physical planes. It is also powerfully protective. Quartz enhances spiritual growth, spirituality and wisdom. Because it clarifies though processes and emotions it increases inspiration and creativity. It can also help particularly with concentration, studying, and retaining what one learns. Quartz is also a stone of harmony because it balances energies, and is even helpful in romantic relationships.

Psychically, quartz is a powerful stone. It is used for protection because it counters black magic and protects from negative energy. Quartz is very useful on the third eye chakra for clarity of psychic vision, and can be used to communicate with spirits and other worlds. Quartz is a stone that can access ancient wisdom and bring it into the present. It is a very good stone for astral travel, manifestation, scrying, channeling, dream recall and dream work.

Quartz is a Master Healer stone. It is an excellent all purpose crystal healer stone. It is said to amplify healing energy and is used to perform diagnostic healing. It has been used historically to detect food poison. It is said to draw out pain. Quartz is used in crystal healing to fortify and strengthen all systems of the body. Quartz is reputed to be particularly effective for chronic fatigue, arthritis, bone injuries, depression, diabetes, fibromyalgia, intestinal troubles. It also is said to improve mental and physical energy, stamina, and physical strength .

Clear quartz is associated with the crown chakra, but also works effectively to balance and energize all chakras.

Speaking of which, at some point, Rin needs to starts studying crystals and their mystic properties. Some of their properties are quite amazing.

deviatesfish
January 28th, 2012, 05:02 AM
In game properties may change on the GM's whim.

qsurf
January 28th, 2012, 05:23 AM
*nods*

Cool, expected as much...

Don't have much else to add to the plans for the day other than if Rin heads for the park, we should experiment with multitasking, as it stands we all can focus on one thing, now let's have each of us focus on different things and see what happens. Rin should just be left alone to play if she wants; but some of us need to see if we can constantly Analyse Rin's body, keeping constant tabs on her condition, others on each of the five senses, maybe even a sixth (if it's there), others keeping tabs on the people around us and their activities...and so on.

Hundreds of minds folks, let's see what we can do with all of them.

whosaidthat
January 28th, 2012, 07:56 AM
"Even your strengthening is putting magical energy into something, right? Normally, whatever you put magical energy into changes in some way and uses up that magical energy. The effect of magic is instantaneous and not permanent, right?"

And yet Shirou's projection on perfectly mundane things lasts for days. If his is the closest thing from the ideal form of projection barring Denial of Nothingness, them a less skilled practioner with shitload of circuits and a massive hivemind in the head should make something that lasts a few hours.

Canon Rin is good enough to tell us the obvious and textbook normal, but our current situation is anything but normal for a magi, that's why I'm suggesting for us to try.

Edit: That means artificial gems, even those on the fly, are at best huge gallons of highly explosive material/energy without purpose. Still good enough if you have magic items that burn your prana like crazy. Maybe even use them quicly like a gun? It would be mostly free for the caster.

deviatesfish
January 28th, 2012, 12:34 PM
*nods*

Cool, expected as much...

Don't have much else to add to the plans for the day other than if Rin heads for the park, we should experiment with multitasking, as it stands we all can focus on one thing, now let's have each of us focus on different things and see what happens. Rin should just be left alone to play if she wants; but some of us need to see if we can constantly Analyse Rin's body, keeping constant tabs on her condition, others on each of the five senses, maybe even a sixth (if it's there), others keeping tabs on the people around us and their activities...and so on.

Hundreds of minds folks, let's see what we can do with all of them.Constantly watching little Rin's every motion? How naughty~

I3uster
January 28th, 2012, 12:53 PM
Projection is a waste of time and prana.
I agree on focussing on the traditional gem magecraft first. Reinforcement should come next. Structural analysis should be on a level where we can reinforce things with relative ease, but it does not need to be particularly high.

But now:
[x] Take her out to the park, maybe you’ll meet Unca Kariya?

Garlak
January 28th, 2012, 01:45 PM
Concerning artificial gems/jewelry...


Since they don't get elemental spirits in them, maybe that means we could customize them? Mess around with them as we want?

Or, hell. Use Alteration. The art of adding properties to things that don't have those properties.

Since gems seem to be receptive to being 'stained' or 'customized' with specialties, maybe that means Alteration would work well to fine-tune them to your own specifications?

I3uster
January 28th, 2012, 01:50 PM
Artifical gems are a dead end and a waste of time we do not have.
Tokiomi can give you as much gems as you want since he actually knows how to handle financial matters and as long as you use them to learn magic and not make fancy necklaces he will probably agree.

qsurf
January 28th, 2012, 02:08 PM
Constantly watching little Rin's every motion? How naughty~
I won't deny it since it's only going to make the teasing worse...and anyways, there should be some lolicons in the collective who would jump at the chance for such an exercise. ^^;;

Yun
January 28th, 2012, 04:19 PM
And yet Shirou's projection on perfectly mundane things lasts for days. If his is the closest thing from the ideal form of projection barring Denial of Nothingness, them a less skilled practioner with shitload of circuits and a massive hivemind in the head should make something that lasts a few hours.First off when does Shirou's projection last for days? Furthermore Shirou has a Reality Marble which last time I checked Rin did not so your comparison does not work, here "Prana consumption is high and the object will disappear quickly, making this pretty much worthless in combat."(Fuyuki)

Canon Rin is good enough to tell us the obvious and textbook normal, but our current situation is anything but normal for a magi, that's why I'm suggesting for us to try.How Rin does having more voices in her head alter the fundamental rules of magecraft?


Edit: That means artificial gems, even those on the fly, are at best huge gallons of highly explosive material/energy without purpose. Still good enough if you have magic items that burn your prana like crazy. Maybe even use them quicly like a gun? It would be mostly free for the caster........okay seriously provide evidence to back up your claims that projection is not a prana inefficient technique("Prana consumption is high and the object will disappear quickly, making this pretty much worthless in combat."(Fuyuki)) or how exactly it can create large amounts of energy out of thin air otherwise drop it because projection does not work like that.

Artifical gems are a dead end and a waste of time we do not have.
Tokiomi can give you as much gems as you want since he actually knows how to handle financial matters and as long as you use them to learn magic and not make fancy necklaces he will probably agree.This

deviatesfish
January 28th, 2012, 04:21 PM
Indeed, Tokiomi does know how to handle financial matters. He's such a great guy, that Tokiomi.

I3uster
January 28th, 2012, 04:23 PM
Shirous projections last indefinite actually. That's why his projection is almost true magic tier according to Rin.
That's not going to work with her.

Erlkonig
January 28th, 2012, 04:27 PM
Shirous projections last indefinite actually. That's why his projection is almost true magic tier according to Rin.
That's not going to work with her.

This.

I3uster
January 28th, 2012, 04:40 PM
So, since Fish keeps on suggesting that learning Lightning isn't going to work, I suggest that we learn Fire magecraft instead. Tokiomi uses this stuff, so he can teach us. It seems to be the easisest of the Elemental magecrafts even, so we could get it on a decent level fast.

After learning Gemcraft of course.

Yun
January 28th, 2012, 04:46 PM
So, since Fish keeps on suggesting that learning Lightning isn't going to work, I suggest that we learn Fire magecraft instead. Tokiomi uses this stuff, so he can teach us. It seems to be the easisest of the Elemental magecrafts even, so we could get it on a decent level fast.

After learning Gemcraft of course.No lighting is fine it's Numerology that is the issue, also I support Jewel magecraft first followed by fire and wind as a tentative third choice.

I3uster
January 28th, 2012, 04:48 PM
Still, a sub-element is harder to learn than a main element.

We already wasted time on useless stuff like structural analysis.

Yun
January 28th, 2012, 04:49 PM
Still, a sub-element is harder to learn than a main element.

We already wasted time on useless stuff like structural analysis.Yep and trying to have a child learn a math based system.

I3uster
January 28th, 2012, 04:51 PM
If it would have worked we would have had RIN TOHSAKA, GODDESS OF THUNDER!
It was worth a try.

Yun
January 28th, 2012, 05:01 PM
If it would have worked we would have had RIN TOHSAKA, GODDESS OF THUNDER!
It was worth a try.I prefer 2nd True Magic proficiency if this quest last anywhere near long enough. Also we should probably go with whatever Tokiomi thinks is best for us to learn before Jewel Magecraft due to Fishie blatantly hinting it to be a very wise choice.

I3uster
January 28th, 2012, 05:05 PM
Nah, I don't think we should wast any thoughts on the 2nd. This is so far beyond our reach it's not even funny.

Yun
January 28th, 2012, 05:08 PM
Nah, I don't think we should wast any thoughts on the 2nd. This is so far beyond our reach it's not even funny. Argh my bad let me rephrase that I was simply thinking about finishing the homework project the Tohsakas were given by Zeltrech.

I3uster
January 28th, 2012, 05:16 PM
Still not something we should waste time on.
If we talk about stuff we should do:
Priority right now should be preventing Sakura from getting wormraped and making Tokiomi survive the war.

Kumoatsu
January 28th, 2012, 05:18 PM
Both laudible goals and unlikely to be pulled off since we have little if any pull.

I3uster
January 28th, 2012, 05:22 PM
Depends if we can play our cards right.
For example, a simple way of increasing Tokiomis chance to survive the war, as stupid as it sounds, is just destroying the catalyst for Gil.
Since Tokiomi actually employs a relatively smart strategy, combined with his Assassin scouting advantage he could win even with a weaker Servant.

Yun
January 28th, 2012, 05:25 PM
Still not something we should waste time on.
If we talk about stuff we should do:
Priority right now should be preventing Sakura from getting wormraped and making Tokiomi survive the war.The first one is impossible for us to change considering Tokiomi's opinion that it was a perfect way to protect Sakura and the second would require him to summon a different Servant.

I3uster
January 28th, 2012, 05:27 PM
If we get Kariya to actually talk, and Tokiomi taking him seriously (BIG if here) it could happen.
Rescue actions on our own would get us killed though.

As for a different Servant, read above.

Yun
January 28th, 2012, 05:31 PM
If we get Kariya to actually talk, and Tokiomi taking him seriously (BIG if here) it could happen.
Rescue actions on our own would get us killed though.

As for a different Servant, read above.As depressing as it is both of them are two entrenched in their ways to listen to a child like us and we aren't even at the mansion when the Servant is summoned or the Catalyst is delivered iirc.

Mike1984
January 28th, 2012, 05:32 PM
Doesn't mean you shouldn't try....

I3uster
January 28th, 2012, 05:34 PM
If we aren't there it means we must ADVENTURE!

When was it delivered, do we know that?

Yun
January 28th, 2012, 05:45 PM
Doesn't mean you shouldn't try....It could very well make the situation worse than it was in canon for the 5th HGW.

If we aren't there it means we must ADVENTURE!The residence we stay at for the duration of the 4th HGW is in a different town....


When was it delivered, do we know that?The morning of the day after Rin departed("The holy relic I prepared will arrive tomorrow morning." )

I3uster
January 28th, 2012, 05:50 PM
She managed to get there by foot (or maybe bike?) during her awesome adventure, so it can't be too far.

Mike1984
January 28th, 2012, 05:58 PM
It could very well make the situation worse than it was in canon for the 5th HGW.

How could things possibly get any worse than they already are?


She managed to get there by foot (or maybe bike?) during her awesome adventure, so it can't be too far.

In the light novel she got the train....

I3uster
January 28th, 2012, 06:00 PM
Oh yeah, train. Then we'll take the train. That should do it.
Getting into the house unnoticed is impossible, but I guess it will take a little time for Aoi to come there and pick us up, in that time we should be able to find the catalyst (he just kept it on his table IIRC) and reduce it to ashes.

He'd scold us hard, but it's for the best.

Yun
January 28th, 2012, 06:02 PM
She managed to get there by foot (or maybe bike?) during her awesome adventure, so it can't be too far.She will also have to get past the boundary fields, escape the notice of any wards for detecting intruders,somehow avoid being noticed by Assassin, sneak past Kotomine and into the Tohsaka workshop where Tokiomi is currently holed up and what is she even to use to destroy it? Also do you really think Rin would listen to us and actually do it?

alfheimwanderer
January 28th, 2012, 06:04 PM
How could things possibly get any worse than they already are?

Well, there's always the risk of Rin accidentally killing herself or getting killed...

I3uster
January 28th, 2012, 06:05 PM
No, we don't have to be stealthy. Actually it's better when we aren't.
He will take us into the house, scold us, notify Aoi and let her pick us up.

In that timeframe it should be posible to blast that thing with a weak fire spell because we are sad that daddy wants to put us away or some other childish reason.
It seems to be very fragile from the picture we have of it in F/Z, I think it was placed on straw and stuff.

Yun
January 28th, 2012, 06:10 PM
No, we don't have to be stealthy. Actually it's better when we aren't.
He will take us into the house, scold us, notify Aoi and let her pick us up.

In that timeframe it should be posible to blast that thing with a weak fire spell because we are sad that daddy wants to put us away or some other childish reason.
It seems to be very fragile from the picture we have of it in F/Z, I think it was placed on straw and stuff.How are we convincing Rin this is a good idea or for that matter avoiding Kirei or Assassin who Tokiomi has watching us to stop Rin from sneaking off again or doing something else potentially dangerous like disturb him while he is preparing the ritual?

I3uster
January 28th, 2012, 06:12 PM
We'll see when we are there, I doubt that it's hard for her to get into Tokiomis room even with Kirei and Assassin there.

Or do you have a better idea?

Bloble
January 28th, 2012, 06:28 PM
Wait. Are you seriously trying to destroy Gil's catalyst? Don't be fools, not even Rin's cuteness is going to protect her if she does that.

Let's just try and make Kariya see reason or... swap the catalysts. Give Kariya Gil and give Tokiomi Lancelot. Cast an illusion spell on them to make them seem the same. It'll be awesome!

I3uster
January 28th, 2012, 06:31 PM
Swapping catalysts is impossible.
Destroying it actually has a chance of working in my opinion.

And what's the worst thing that could happen? We're just a child after all, he isn't going to kill us, probably not even going to slap us.

Larekko12
January 28th, 2012, 06:34 PM
Dudes it might more probably to Highjack the summoning sans catalyst before Tokiomi even does if you are trying to get another servant or to somehow convince Tokiomi to risk using us as the anchor for the summoning with our super powered prana causing to change summoning target as he would risk summoning something like Gil and binding it to a kid.

Finding something wrong and getting Kariya to spit it out seems more appropiate or somehow seeding the idea of summoning something other that Gil like Hector or something.

Yun
January 28th, 2012, 06:35 PM
We'll see when we are there, I doubt that it's hard for her to get into Tokiomis room even with Kirei and Assassin there.

Or do you have a better idea?We could get in there while being escorted which means we would have a 0% chance of destroying the skin and this is assuming whatever force is keeping us acting like Rin doesn't interfere because this is completely ooc for Rin.

I3uster
January 28th, 2012, 06:37 PM
I doubt that it's possible to persuade him to summon someone else, his whole life he was prepared for the task and probably considered a lot of options before settling on Gil.
And we didn't get picked by the Grail, so we can't summon anyone.

Yun
January 28th, 2012, 06:41 PM
Dudes it might more probably to Highjack the summoning sans catalyst before Tokiomi even does if you are trying to get another servant or to somehow convince Tokiomi to risk using us as the anchor for the summoning with our super powered prana causing to change summoning target as he would risk summoning something like Gil and binding it to a kid.
The Greater Grail does most of the work for the summoning so he has no reason to involve Rin.


Finding something wrong and getting Kariya to spit it out seems more appropiate or somehow seeding the idea of summoning something other that Gil like Hector or something.We are 7 years old so how are we going to convince him that summoning a weaker Servant is a good idea?

whosaidthat
January 28th, 2012, 06:58 PM
Try to get the full set with both Gil AND Enkidu. At least the latter can in theory restrain the former from going the deep end.

On the other hand they could simply forget about the grail and go party on the 20th century.

Mike1984
January 28th, 2012, 07:10 PM
Wouldn't saving Sakura actually also (probably) save Tokiomi? His fight with Kariya was the catalyst for Kotomine finally choosing to turn against him, because it was the first time he did anything explicitly against Tokiomi's will. Without that he might well not have got to the "backstabbing" stage. Plus, Berserker really annoyed Gil, and without him around he might be a little less inclined to be pissed off at Tokiomi.

qsurf
January 28th, 2012, 08:15 PM
We'll see when we are there, I doubt that it's hard for her to get into Tokiomis room even with Kirei and Assassin there.

Or do you have a better idea?
I have one.

Let's not do it.

Let's let everything run as it does in canon; we train up, we shore up our magical prowess, we learn everything we can and then some, then we can act freely after our father's death. The matter with Kirei as our guardian can be easily handled as he doesn't pay much attention to us since we weren't all that interesting during the 4th War. With our parents dead and Sakura away, we'll be free to make friends with a certain red head and teach him how to properly use his circuits, we'll be free to smile and laugh with our distant imouto in private in school, when the 5th War comes about, we'll have an Alliance option open with the Master of Saber, and after nulling the Alliance with Matou as an act of War, wipe the bastards off the map and have our imouto return to us as the Mistress of Rider.

Archer, Rider, and Saber in an alliance together, and two Reality Marble users, an Average One, and a Shadow User. All for the price of sitting and waiting and shoring up our strength like a real magus.

Mike1984
January 28th, 2012, 08:49 PM
You mean the "distant imouto" who is being horribly tortured?