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Apple
February 23rd, 2012, 06:22 PM
Does anyone know where every art teacher got this idea?Also, does anyone know where i can find teachers who don't?I would post this in the instant expert thread, but i thought a topc like this would be big enough to warrant its own thread. Also i doubt there is such a thing as an expert on 'why art teachers think anime sucks'. The art teachers can never explain themselves, and when they do i get some contradictory nonsense about how anime is dead (lol) or how it is grossly disproportionate (from the same people who advocate disney princesses and their large eyes and barbie hips).Tell me, why do art teachers think anime sucks? Some people say it is because they dont update themselves, but i have a feeling it has more to do with what they were taught than what they are doing. Was there possibly some kind of 'anime sucks' agenda going on way back when our generation's art teachers were schooling?Possibly this is an effect of herd mentality, or the inner trolls in all art teachers exposing themselves?

Ivan The Mouse
February 23rd, 2012, 06:27 PM
Was there possibly some kind of 'anime sucks' agenda going on way back when our generation's art teachers were schooling?

Dawn of Disney era, comrade. At least among the cartoonists who are afraid of Japan's advancement to animation during that time.

As for art teachers, they have the stereotype of being pretentious and pompous. This might be one of the reasons: Close-mindedness and bookishness.

Apple
February 23rd, 2012, 06:28 PM
Is this... what they call fear of conpetition?As for stereotypes, i prefer the term 'trash loving assholes' myself (how can human beings live amidst so much junk willingly like an art teacher can) but who am i to judge the likes and dislikes of my superiors lol

MZeroX
February 23rd, 2012, 06:46 PM
Science people live in even more junk filled environments. There's just a different pretense, lol. >_>;



Yeah, I totally read this thread title and due to it was expecting someone to be bitching about how current anime seasons don't have as much flair as ones half a decade ago.

Kotonoha
February 23rd, 2012, 06:47 PM
Anime does suck. But I assume you're talking about manga artstyle, rather than anime itself sucking, which it does.

My guess is that art teachers are jaded from kids coming in and just wanting to draw KAWAII ANIMU without learning realism, anatomy, and all the things that make art not suck. So they insist on drawing shitty anime because IT'S MAH STYYYYLE OKAY

Twelveseal
February 23rd, 2012, 06:56 PM
From what I've seen, it's mostly to do with their education. Art Teachers are generally Fine Arts Majors, from my experience, which means that they've gone through a lot of schooling that's hammered home very traditional views of what Art "should be." Most of the modern era grew up with Western cartoons and animation, so they're not as biased against it.

Ultimately, though, Manga and Anime are not Fine Art. They're very modern, living, changing media that adapt to the current technology and culture. Unlike Fine Art production, it's popular, more-or-less mainstream, and perhaps most of all, profitable. For the most part, it's not as complex as the products of more traditional media, nor does it take as long to produce, nor as much money.

Most teachers, however, were taught to follow the traditional disciplines, which place much higher demands on technique, precision, time, and resources, and yet are not as profitable or popular.

In essence, Manga and Anime spit in the face of the principles these people were taught, and are more successful for it. That can foster a tremendous amount of resentment, since there's the subtle suggestion that those Majors wasted their lives learning things that are ultimately proving to be wrong. The success of Anime and Manga is like a massive walking insult to people who genuinely believe in the traditional views of Fine Art. And at the same time, it's also threatening the value of their own work in the past.

However, this is ultimately my opinion on this, so take it with a grain of salt.

Malgos
February 23rd, 2012, 06:59 PM
Anime does suck [...] than anime itself sucking, which it does.

I agree with anime sucking and I don't really watch any or many. I didn't watch any last year with the exception of Type-Moon ones.

While not exactly on topic, but kind of, I disliked my art teachers as well. Then again I have no real talent and being forced to do so kind of sucks. That's besides my dislike for them personally, but it added to art classes grating on my nerves.

MZeroX
February 23rd, 2012, 07:01 PM
...waitwaitwait. you're saying anime sucks, but the vast amount of your anime experience is type-moon anime? that's like reading the Twilight series, then saying all vampires suck.

well, it's still true, but it's a poor generalization.

Twelveseal
February 23rd, 2012, 07:02 PM
There's a joke in that post.

Malgos
February 23rd, 2012, 07:18 PM
...waitwaitwait. you're saying anime sucks, but the vast amount of your anime experience is type-moon anime?

No, I was merely talking about how much anime I watched during the last year. Which was strictly Type-Moon and basically everything, but the Tsukihime one since Shiki's face scared me off. I got interested in Type-Moon stuff during the last year so I kind of did everything, but play the visual novels, although decided to play Fate after I was finished with the anime and manga stuff. Well except for the Fate manga, since that one wasn't completly translated yet. The art for the manga seems to be pretty bad though.

Despite my poor wording and you misunderstanding. I really don't have too much experience in the way of anime. I was never really too interested in it, but most of the ones I watched were kind of sad, if you know what they were based off of and what they turned into. Again I haven't watched too many, but besides the ones from my childhood and later a few other one. Most of the animeI watched were kind of sad compared to the manga, I guess I just started running into all the bad ones or something like that. Not to mention that my interest in anime wasn't that great to begin with. Can't say my interest in manga in general is all that higher either. I do like some series though. I usually tend to go off and find some when I'm bored or in rare cases get something recommended. I just rather play games than watch anime and reading manga doesn't take as long either, so keeping up with stuff is easy. Just got to dedicate a few minutes, so that's definitely a plus.


There's a joke in that post.

It wasn't intentional nor meant like that.

Twelveseal
February 23rd, 2012, 07:26 PM
I was actually talking about Zero's post. The "All Vampire's Suck" line. I found the wording a bit humorous.

Ivan The Mouse
February 23rd, 2012, 07:48 PM
Let us kill the joke, shall we?

http://www.comingsoon.net/gallery/66293/Vampires_Suck_1.jpg

Apple
February 23rd, 2012, 07:49 PM
In my day, vampires sucked blood not cock.

In other news: science types live in worse trash? You should see my old school's art room sometime, the boards had gotten so old and rotten that worms (maggots i think) were crawling all over them.

Koto, y Anime suk? Srs question plz

Kotonoha
February 23rd, 2012, 08:03 PM
Koto, y Anime suk? Srs question plz

Poorly animated, too much reliance on cliche plots and characters (tsundere, anyone?), everything is an adaptation, etc

There's some good stuff too but for the most part, anime is not that great.

terraablaze
February 23rd, 2012, 08:05 PM
I'm pretty sure it has to do with most being adaptations of things that tend to only get worse upon adaptation + the much larger reason of the animation for anime being as a whole not very good.

Edit: okay never mind

Kotonoha
February 23rd, 2012, 08:06 PM
I'm pretty sure it has to do with most being adaptations of things that tend to only get worse upon adaptation + the much larger reason of the animation for anime being as a whole not very good.

Edit: okay never mind

You read my mind!

Mcjon01
February 23rd, 2012, 08:08 PM
In essence, Manga and Anime spit in the face of the principles these people were taught, and are more successful for it. That can foster a tremendous amount of resentment, since there's the subtle suggestion that those Majors wasted their lives learning things that are ultimately proving to be wrong. The success of Anime and Manga is like a massive walking insult to people who genuinely believe in the traditional views of Fine Art. And at the same time, it's also threatening the value of their own work in the past.

http://i43.tinypic.com/xndkqo.jpg

Pictured: Threatening the value of art.

terraablaze
February 23rd, 2012, 08:09 PM
Your response wasn't there when I was posting.

^
Oh sweet Siddhartha why!?!

Guy
February 23rd, 2012, 08:09 PM
Poorly animated, too much reliance on cliche plots and characters (tsundere, anyone?), everything is an adaptation, etc

There's some good stuff too but for the most part, anime is not that great.


To be fair there is no medium that is not derivative.

Seeing twist upon this cliches is what makes the story good.

^^ KILL IT! KILL IT WITH FIRE!

terraablaze
February 23rd, 2012, 08:10 PM
"90% of everything sucks" is the law in fiction as I recall.

Kotonoha
February 23rd, 2012, 08:11 PM
http://i43.tinypic.com/xndkqo.jpg

Pictured: Threatening the value of art.

So as I was saying about animation quality...

Ivan The Mouse
February 23rd, 2012, 08:12 PM
^
Oh sweet Siddhartha why!?!

Pictured: Early 4chan dwellers define this as an example of why anime is not the greatest thing in the world.


To be fair there is no medium that is not derivative. Seeing twist upon this cliches is what makes the story good.

And this twisting of cliche has an overall potential of being a cliche.

terraablaze
February 23rd, 2012, 08:12 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturgeon%27s_Law

This is what I was thinking of. Whether anime somehow beats this trend and shoots for 95% is a separate issue.

Apple
February 23rd, 2012, 08:12 PM
Sex sells, so they make lots of it to satisfy the fat virgin otaku living in their parents' bomb shelters.

I find your justification jarring with the update level of my old art teachers though, one told me 'doraemon is the best anime and it is not art therefore all anime is not art, and so it sucks.'

Guy
February 23rd, 2012, 08:17 PM
I find your justification jarring with the update level of my old art teachers though, one told me 'doraemon is the best anime and it is not art therefore all anime is not art, and so it sucks.'


An art teacher saying that anime is not art?

Bad art I understand, YMMV I understand, but saying that anime it is not art?

How odd.

Ivan The Mouse
February 23rd, 2012, 08:20 PM
I find your justification jarring with the update level of my old art teachers though, one told me 'doraemon is the best anime and it is not art therefore all anime is not art, and so it sucks.'

Wait...

Doraemon is the best anime.
Doraemon is not art.
Ergo, all anime is not art.
Double ergo, Doraemon sucks.

http://cdn.myanimelist.net/images/characters/10/118441.jpg

According to them, that is not art.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9lmvX00TLY

But this is art. Performance art.

So much for art logic.

Apple
February 23rd, 2012, 08:21 PM
His ability to skew logic was impeccable

Seems to be a common trait for most art teachers though. They also mostly say anime is not art for lolwhatever reason they can come up with, whether it makes sense or not

Twelveseal
February 23rd, 2012, 08:23 PM
Welcome to the world of tomorrow. Or yesterday, since we're talking about Doraemon.

But yeah. I can see the validity of "anime sucks" but keep in mind that not all anime is aesthetically displeasing, which I think is a valid point of contention.

In other news, hswtf is that posted pic.

Ivan The Mouse
February 23rd, 2012, 08:25 PM
In other news, hswtf is that posted pic.

I can see Annaka from Nichijou here, as a reaction image. What do you see?

[Edit: False alarm; Ignore post.]

In-N-Out Double-Double & Animal Fries
February 23rd, 2012, 08:30 PM
Considering all my doodles look as if they were done by a 12 year old weeaboo, I don't have anything to say.

Ruu-tan
February 24th, 2012, 07:24 AM
Hm, one of my senior who's currently studying animation told me about how her art teacher berated her for using anime style in her projects. Yet the guy had his students watch a anime for reference...

I think it's the mainstream anime that usually suck. Not every one of them, but that's how it go in my experience. Then again, you have to admit there are high-quality anime, such as Hayao Miyazaki's Spirited Away and Princess Mononoke...

Kotollama
February 24th, 2012, 08:11 AM
Does anyone know where every art teacher got this idea?Also, does anyone know where i can find teachers who don't?I


YOU JUST FOUND; KOTONORRIS!

nununu
February 24th, 2012, 09:51 AM
I'm too shallow for art. Anime please.

KENTA
February 24th, 2012, 10:21 AM
Just like everything, there's good anime and there's bad anime. And just like most people, your art teacher doesn't give a shit if something's good or not. That one time they interacted with it it sucked, so they win.

And yes, Sturgeons law. 90% of everything is horrible, Anime included.

Kotonoha
February 24th, 2012, 10:40 AM
Hm, one of my senior who's currently studying animation told me about how her art teacher berated her for using anime style in her projects. Yet the guy had his students watch a anime for reference...

I think it's the mainstream anime that usually suck. Not every one of them, but that's how it go in my experience. Then again, you have to admit there are high-quality anime, such as Hayao Miyazaki's Spirited Away and Princess Mononoke...

There is indeed good stuff like Ghibli and DAT SATOSHI KON but let's face it, the average "anime fan" is going to be watching/emulating Naruto, not those.

If you're studying animation, anime can teach you to be a lazy bastard though! (lollowframerates lolmakingcharactersfaceawayfromtheviewerwhiletheyt alk soyoudon'thavetoanimateanymouthmovements lol)

Ruu-tan
February 24th, 2012, 10:42 AM
@Kotonoha
They don't know what they're missing, those poor bastards.

I'm still a highschool student at the moment lol. I'll be studying Graphic Design studying this June in Singapore, though.

@KENTA
That's why the remaining 10% is something worth dying for. Most of the time.

Kotonoha
February 24th, 2012, 10:43 AM
Uh, I dunno man, I like Nausicaa but I probably wouldn't actually die for it.

Oh I remember one rage moment that relates to this topic, there was some high school art show my school contributed to, and when I went to it, someone from another school had basically just eyeball-copied that UBW ending CG of Archer and Rin. Other people had done similar things. Hooray for plagiarism.

(I will never understand why people think they are awesome artists for making copied versions of official art or other people's fanart. Oh yeah, I always thought Takeuchi's art would be improved by shaky lines and shitty acrylic paint!)

KENTA
February 24th, 2012, 10:51 AM
No, 1% is worth dieing for, and only if you're REALLY hardcore. 10% is worth arguing occasionally.

And lolwut? Someone copied TAKEUCHI?! What madness has this world come to?!

MZeroX
February 24th, 2012, 10:53 AM
it's called deviantart. fear it.

KENTA
February 24th, 2012, 10:54 AM
Fun deviantart game: Take any character from any genre of anything, type their name in, and add "The Hedgehog" to the end of it.

MZeroX
February 24th, 2012, 10:59 AM
i just shivered. i like to think that it's in fear of entertaining that thought, though it realistically is probably just my body temperature decreasing.

Kotonoha
February 24th, 2012, 10:59 AM
it's called deviantart. fear it.

Yeah, I think approximately 250% of works submitted to deviantart are traced/eyeballed animu.

Even Pixiv isn't safe from it.

Ruu-tan
February 24th, 2012, 12:14 PM
Uh, I dunno man, I like Nausicaa but I probably wouldn't actually die for it.

Oh I remember one rage moment that relates to this topic, there was some high school art show my school contributed to, and when I went to it, someone from another school had basically just eyeball-copied that UBW ending CG of Archer and Rin. Other people had done similar things. Hooray for plagiarism.

(I will never understand why people think they are awesome artists for making copied versions of official art or other people's fanart. Oh yeah, I always thought Takeuchi's art would be improved by shaky lines and shitty acrylic paint!)

I did say, 'Most of the time.' ^ ^;

I hate plagiarism. Very much. A classmate once recolored a wallpaper for a school project. I happen to know the creator of said wall so I've never really liked said classmate since then. It's one thing to copy an art for practice, but blatantly retracing and claiming it your own? No. Mercy.


... Ahem, sorry for a bit of raging. it's just that it pissed me off to see someone else easily redraw what you have created from scratch then make it their own. That bit of artist in me just can't stand it.

In-N-Out Double-Double & Animal Fries
February 24th, 2012, 01:41 PM
Max the hedgehog, after our fellow forumite

third result

http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs17/f/2007/122/6/8/Max_the_Hedgehog_by_Perreault.jpg

Apple
February 25th, 2012, 03:11 AM
If you're studying animation, anime can teach you to be a lazy bastard though! (lollowframerates lolmakingcharactersfaceawayfromtheviewerwhiletheyt alk soyoudon'thavetoanimateanymouthmovements lol)

Low frame rates isnt really something i would gripe about, last i remember lots of animes run on approximately 30 frames per second. That's hardly a small number of frames, unless you compare it to disney's ocd for having as many frames as they can.

It isnt a good thing to be as obsessive about frames as gil is obsessive over swords.

When have anime made people face away from the camera so you dont have to animate their mouths? I dont recall any doing that.

Counterguardian
February 25th, 2012, 03:17 AM
With respect to the "no mouth animation" discussion as a whole:

Gendo Ikari. That is all.

Apple
February 25th, 2012, 03:22 AM
Gendou pose?

Ruu-tan
February 25th, 2012, 03:30 AM
.hack//ROOTS. I recall there is one scene of a character speaking without facing the camera. We get Gendo pose for a few mouth frames, I think it's a fair trade.

LunarLegend
February 25th, 2012, 04:15 AM
Please don't make me laugh.

Just sketching out a My Life Me clone does not transmute base paper into gold. Being able to sell to publishers, have publishers market, and be able to keep up demand on the product once in production (for serialization, natch) is not an easy task. The skills that go into producing Fine Art are quite precise, and - while I don't want to put down comic and manga artists - there's a lot to be said for understanding the techniques behind making Fine Art.

As for the profitability of Fine Art Degrees: do you have any thing to back up that classically trained artists are worth less than mangaka and comics artists? I'm sorry, but I find it hard to believe that the backlash from these arts teachers is merely the collective grunt of liberal arts majors crying in their lattes over how little they earn compared to manga artists.



Anime does suck. But I assume you're talking about manga artstyle, rather than anime itself sucking, which it does.

My guess is that art teachers are jaded from kids coming in and just wanting to draw KAWAII ANIMU without learning realism, anatomy, and all the things that make art not suck. So they insist on drawing shitty anime because IT'S MAH STYYYYLE OKAY

This. I have seen SO many fans who think their art is amazingly fantastic rather than merely pedestrian. While one can't deny that some manga-style art is great, quite often it merely is serviceable for the sake of an artist to quickly crank out the story they want (or rather, the folks hiring them want) serialized. Not everyone is Naoki Urasawa, and sameface can be a huge problem for beginners. The cries of nephytes claiming they're going to be the next Tite Kubo because they draw a googly-eyed girl with a weird haircolor can be VERY grating after a while.

I'm reminded of someone whose writing I edited and revised who told me about how she started he own fictional universe/setting while we were geekin out over writing fiction (specifically, Vampires and Fey). Her stuff was totally not derivative because "Elves" were called "Elva" and they were a slave race that magic but since retreated from the world of humans. I couldn't convince her any other way that her stuff was merely Tolkien elves with some cosmetic reskinning of their history. It's a hard lesson for learners to pick up, but just because they can copy something they think is cool doesn't mean that it's instant awesomesauce.

Trying to hammer that into a starry-eyed newbling's mind is one helluva challenge

In-N-Out Double-Double & Animal Fries
February 25th, 2012, 04:36 AM
Speaking of which, I have no idea why I decided to do my shitty doodle a day thing with anime/Manga style. It was probably a spur of the moment thing after viewing the fanart section here but I don't see a purpose in actually doing it.

mewarmo990
February 25th, 2012, 04:47 AM
Poorly animated, too much reliance on cliche plots and characters (tsundere, anyone?), everything is an adaptation, etc

There's some good stuff too but for the most part, anime is not that great.
Yeah, to expand on this, it's like how modern network television sucks in general because 80% of it seems to be reality TV shit like Jersey Shore.

You have to understand that anime is a mainstream medium in Japan, so it's going to be used to grab ratings and merchandising and the lowest common denominator of all that bad stuff about the otaku culture that you can think of.

Apple
February 25th, 2012, 04:47 AM
.hack//ROOTS. I recall there is one scene of a character speaking without facing the camera. We get Gendo pose for a few mouth frames, I think it's a fair trade.

Compared to the vast majority of anime where characters are mostly, if not always facing the camera when they speak?

I dunno, maybe i havent seen enough anime so my sample data is biased, but one scene doesnt justify it for me

KENTA
February 25th, 2012, 04:53 AM
I don't know about that specific concept, but there are TONS of examples of corner cutting in anime. It's understandable, but when you notice it it's off putting. From tons of stock footage to static drawings being on screen for even 30 seconds at a time, it's all about cutting corners.

Ruu-tan
February 25th, 2012, 04:55 AM
One of my best friends is a very talented artist, the best in my class I daresay. She's more of a traditional-style artist (her oil-paintings are scary....), yet she could draw anime-style like breathing after someone convinced her to watch K-ON and Clannad. (Watch Clannad, it's a classic) Shows that Fine Art isn't something to sneeze at. Personally, I think it even strengthen one's drawing basics. Many, many practices later, you could practically draw anything. Well, not exactly everything, but you will definitely improve. Doodling is still practice, even if a sketch a day still counts as slow it's still something.


This. I have seen SO many fans who think their art is amazingly fantastic rather than merely pedestrian. While one can't deny that some manga-style art is great, quite often it merely is serviceable for the sake of an artist to quickly crank out the story they want (or rather, the folks hiring them want) serialized. Not everyone is Naoki Urasawa, and sameface can be a huge problem for beginners. The cries of nephytes claiming they're going to be the next Tite Kubo because they draw a googly-eyed girl with a weird haircolor can be VERY grating after a while.

I'm reminded of someone whose writing I edited and revised who told me about how she started he own fictional universe/setting while we were geekin out over writing fiction (specifically, Vampires and Fey). Her stuff was totally not derivative because "Elves" were called "Elva" and they were a slave race that magic but since retreated from the world of humans. I couldn't convince her any other way that her stuff was merely Tolkien elves with some cosmetic reskinning of their history. It's a hard lesson for learners to pick up, but just because they can copy something they think is cool doesn't mean that it's instant awesomesauce.

Trying to hammer that into a starry-eyed newbling's mind is one helluva challenge

They're still frogs in the well. Or have never been to the god-tier parts of pixiv. Also, Tite Kubo is not a bad artist, but I'd rather not take him as a role model. Something about his current style just grates on me...

Obnoxious starry-eyed newbies. I'm ashamed to say I used to be that, before some years of getting wiser and such.

mewarmo990
February 25th, 2012, 05:20 AM
Btw, anime has very low frame rates compared to a lot of Western animation. Took me a long time to realize this but it was really jarring when I started comparing them.

Fortunately most of what I watch has great art to make up for it... but wow.

food
February 25th, 2012, 06:54 AM
Comparing animu with fine art is like comparing rap with classical music.

Animu and rap are not perceived as "classy" by all segments of the population, while fine art and classical music are perceived as "classy" by all segments of the population.

Ivan The Mouse
February 25th, 2012, 07:08 AM
Comparing animu with fine art is like comparing rap with classical music.

Animu and rap are not perceived as "classy" by all segments of the population, while fine art and classical music are perceived as "classy" by all segments of the population.

This.

Erlkonig
February 25th, 2012, 08:27 AM
http://www.macalester.edu/german/GS306/306Aufsatzvorlagen/Ressourcen/WernerReichsgruendung.jpg

Am I kawaii uguu

Ruu-tan
February 25th, 2012, 09:21 AM
@food
An apt analogy.

terraablaze
February 25th, 2012, 09:45 AM
http://www.macalester.edu/german/GS306/306Aufsatzvorlagen/Ressourcen/WernerReichsgruendung.jpg

Am I kawaii uguu

So kawaii desuuuuuu~

Ivan The Mouse
February 25th, 2012, 10:39 AM
http://www.macalester.edu/german/GS306/306Aufsatzvorlagen/Ressourcen/WernerReichsgruendung.jpg

Am I kawaii uguu

Moe~

Apple
February 25th, 2012, 11:38 AM
One of my best friends is a very talented artist, the best in my class I daresay. She's more of a traditional-style artist (her oil-paintings are scary....), yet she could draw anime-style like breathing after someone convinced her to watch K-ON and Clannad. (Watch Clannad, it's a classic) Shows that Fine Art isn't something to sneeze at. Personally, I think it even strengthen one's drawing basics. Many, many practices later, you could practically draw anything. Well, not exactly everything, but you will definitely improve. Doodling is still practice, even if a sketch a day still counts as slow it's still something.

Well that part is understandable (a given, actually), since a hard worker tends to be hard working at everything so if you give her animu she'll get good at it relatively quickly due to her nature. Also, an extensive pre-existing understanding of the human form would allow her to quickly adapt to anime people. Not to mention she's spent ages holding art materials (and been good at it for ages) so loladapting shouldn't be too difficult.

In any case, we are digressing. I am not saying that a solid foundation in relevant topics like anatomy won't benefit animu artists. I want to know why the fuck most if not all art teachers consistently hate anime/manga/the anime/manga style.

terraablaze
February 25th, 2012, 11:46 AM
Koto's explanation is probably serviceable: students who want to jump straight to drawing animu style without any knowledge or skills resulting in atrocities, and then the art teacher associates the suck with manga art. Because lord knows my non-mangaish drawings in art class were somehow better.

eddyak
February 25th, 2012, 11:48 AM
Koto's explanation is probably serviceable: students who want to jump straight to drawing animu style without any knowledge or skills resulting in atrocities, and then the art teacher associates the suck with manga art.

Same reason people start to dislike Sakura on BL. Overexposure to less-than-pleasant sources.

Seika
February 25th, 2012, 01:18 PM
Tactfully put, eddy.

Apple
February 25th, 2012, 01:29 PM
Koto's explanation is probably serviceable: students who want to jump straight to drawing animu style without any knowledge or skills resulting in atrocities, and then the art teacher associates the suck with manga art. Because lord knows my non-mangaish drawings in art class were somehow better.

It seems plausible, but the explanation simply doesn't sit well with me. Can't quite put my finger on it though.

Ruu-tan
February 25th, 2012, 02:08 PM
Well that part is understandable (a given, actually), since a hard worker tends to be hard working at everything so if you give her animu she'll get good at it relatively quickly due to her nature. Also, an extensive pre-existing understanding of the human form would allow her to quickly adapt to anime people. Not to mention she's spent ages holding art materials (and been good at it for ages) so loladapting shouldn't be too difficult.

In any case, we are digressing. I am not saying that a solid foundation in relevant topics like anatomy won't benefit animu artists. I want to know why the fuck most if not all art teachers consistently hate anime/manga/the anime/manga style.

And she does love art, along with a very down-to-earth attitude and eccentricities. Talented yet very likable and fun, people like this are very hard to find nowadays.... Too bad she's going to learn architecture instead of Fine Arts. I'd love to see more of her works, envy be damned. For your information, she's more of the expert on colors. Her human anatomy is kind of basic, but she's definitely the master of painting. That's why most of the stuffs she produced would be, at least, eye-catching.

It simplifies the human anatomy too much... Often times, also distorting it. That's no good for newbie art students. And they (the teachers) do have a reputation and pride to keep. Can't have your graduates going around making crappy art then blaming you for bad educating, right?

LunarLegend
February 25th, 2012, 07:29 PM
Ruu-ten, introduce your friend to BLAME! and BIOMEGA. She will have much to learn re: architecture gone WILD!

Ruu-tan
February 25th, 2012, 09:50 PM
Hm, I'll see if I could get a copy or the scanlation of those for her. But now isn't the best time, she's preparing for her university entrance exam. And we have exams starting from this week and many days to come. Yeah.

Apple
February 26th, 2012, 05:15 AM
Anime: simplifies anatomy too much
cartoons: deliberately grossly exaggerates body parts
Cubism: turns anatomy into weird shit

Apparently altering anatomy is only unacceptable in the first example, and is acceptable and encouraged in the second and third despite the fact that they both bend anatomy over and screw it over.

I3uster
February 26th, 2012, 06:02 AM
You are getting it wrong there, Apple, the point was that art students who want to draw kawaii uguu~ art don't bother learning basic human anatomy before stylization.

Which is bad.

Ivan The Mouse
February 26th, 2012, 06:40 AM
You are getting it wrong there, Apple, the point was that art students who want to draw kawaii uguu~ art don't bother learning basic human anatomy before stylization.

Which is bad.

Oh.

How about the comic artists who went to art school and don't even want to learn the basic anatomy, like Rob Liefeld? Don't say that his artwork didn't leave a nasty bruise in the comic industry, man. He owned the 90s. He's also a self-taught artist, never went to art school or something.

If the art teachers hate the kawaii uguu~ art students, how about the GRIMDARK SEX AND VIOLENCE art students? Are art teachers vocal about it? Granted, comic books are less popular today, but doesn't mean it isn't an existing industry.

I'm going to make more analogies from the other fields of art regarding this. (Music, filming, writing, etc.) But I don't think it is necessary.

Flame
February 26th, 2012, 07:51 AM
Comparing animu with fine art is like comparing rap with classical music.

Animu and rap are not perceived as "classy" by all segments of the population, while fine art and classical music are perceived as "classy" by all segments of the population.
http://memebase.referata.com/w/images/Fat-son-1.jpg


http://cache.ohinternet.com/images/6/68/Fatson_Football.png

KENTA
February 26th, 2012, 08:47 AM
Oh.

How about the comic artists who went to art school and don't even want to learn the basic anatomy, like Rob Liefeld? Don't say that his artwork didn't leave a nasty bruise in the comic industry, man. He owned the 90s. He's also a self-taught artist, never went to art school or something.

If the art teachers hate the kawaii uguu~ art students, how about the GRIMDARK SEX AND VIOLENCE art students? Are art teachers vocal about it? Granted, comic books are less popular today, but doesn't mean it isn't an existing industry.

I'm going to make more analogies from the other fields of art regarding this. (Music, filming, writing, etc.) But I don't think it is necessary.

We're not a big part of that fanbase, so you don't hear about it as often, but yes, yes they do. Generally speaking art teachers hate when students don't learn the basics first, no matter what they draw.

Kotonoha
February 26th, 2012, 10:05 AM
Anime: simplifies anatomy too much
cartoons: deliberately grossly exaggerates body parts
Cubism: turns anatomy into weird shit

Apparently altering anatomy is only unacceptable in the first example, and is acceptable and encouraged in the second and third despite the fact that they both bend anatomy over and screw it over.

Ruu and I3uster got it right, it's because it's too simple and you're expected to learn anatomy before moving on to styles that distort it.

My art teachers didn't approve of people drawing cartoons either (probably for the same reasons), and as for cubism, even Picasso started out with realism (when he was 15, dayummm).

If you can't handle people telling you what to draw, why take an art class?

Ivan The Mouse
February 26th, 2012, 01:54 PM
My art teachers didn't approve of people drawing cartoons either (probably for the same reasons), and as for cubism, even Picasso started out with realism (when he was 15, dayummm).

Oh, that's weird. My teacher in animation actually taught us manga style and cartoons. Granted, it was after he taught us realism and said that we have to master it, so that we could be better at drawing other things.

mewarmo990
February 26th, 2012, 04:03 PM
Same reason people start to dislike Sakura on BL. Overexposure to less-than-pleasant sources.

The bait is cast...

mangafreak7793
February 26th, 2012, 04:36 PM
The bait is cast...

and the wait begins.

Apple
February 26th, 2012, 07:18 PM
Your art teachers are weird.

All the art teachers i know are solely skewed against anime/manga, one was particularly happy to let one of my classmates draw stick figures and ball headed people for his gcse o level project. No question about anatomy, just 'fuck off anime style, whatever you do'.

Also, it's like after they go through the necessary minimum syllabus about anatomy they can't be bothered upholding anatomy anymore, save for prohibiting Kawai uguu anime

Basically, you can do anything the fuck you want so long as it is not anime or naked pix. Theyd let you copy directly using the light box for the bulk of projects as well, or draw big sized comic frames with color pencils. I found the whole thing extremely weird.

Anyway, i dont take art anymore, i was only curious as to why they hate anime and manga with such burning passion. Also, when i said 'cubism' i was referring to what students do in the classroom, not what picasso went through.

Mcjon01
February 26th, 2012, 08:38 PM
Your art teachers are weird.

It sounds more like, your art teachers were just really shitty teachers.

eddyak
February 26th, 2012, 08:47 PM
The bait is cast...

My bait is usually more subtle. That, or so obvious it isn't bait at all.

Apple
February 26th, 2012, 08:47 PM
I thought so too at first, but when you go from school to school for a look at their art rooms/teacher attitudes, you realize that they're pretty much the norm.

Mcjon01
February 26th, 2012, 08:53 PM
Even if it's the norm, that's still being a shitty teacher. Because if you're letting students do whatever they want with no direction, and letting them just mindlessly trace stuff, you aren't doing your job. Which is to impart a fundamental skillset and knowledge that will let students art whatever strikes their fancy later on down the road.

eddyak
February 26th, 2012, 08:56 PM
...that will let students art whatever strikes their fancy later on down the road.

Best new phrase ever?

Apple
February 26th, 2012, 09:09 PM
What would be considered providing direction though?

Tohno
February 27th, 2012, 04:00 AM
Does anyone know where every art teacher got this idea?Also, does anyone know where i can find teachers who don't?I would post this in the instant expert thread, but i thought a topc like this would be big enough to warrant its own thread. Also i doubt there is such a thing as an expert on 'why art teachers think anime sucks'. The art teachers can never explain themselves, and when they do i get some contradictory nonsense about how anime is dead (lol) or how it is grossly disproportionate (from the same people who advocate disney princesses and their large eyes and barbie hips).Tell me, why do art teachers think anime sucks? Some people say it is because they dont update themselves, but i have a feeling it has more to do with what they were taught than what they are doing. Was there possibly some kind of 'anime sucks' agenda going on way back when our generation's art teachers were schooling?Possibly this is an effect of herd mentality, or the inner trolls in all art teachers exposing themselves?
When I went to Japan, the art club members could draw jaw-droppingly gorgeous anime pics in seconds. Then the ones they photoshopped and digitally edited and printed gave visual novels a run for their money, and the teachers actually FRAMED them and put them on display.

But in the western world, anime is the DARK DARK PLACE

I3uster
February 27th, 2012, 04:12 AM
In the western world Anime doesn't exist, because if you draw it here it's a goddamn cartoon.

Cascade
February 27th, 2012, 04:18 AM
I really dislike making anime out to be some sort of exotic art form, because it limits your ability to appraise individual works objectively. To me, it's just another medium through which a story can be conveyed.

The fact is though that I tend to watch cartoons exclusively over other forms of televised entertainment, probably because as a medium it allows more flexibility in setting than live action, without having to rely on awkward CGI. I tend to watch anime more over other cartoons from other countries because it just happens the majority of entertainment media with stories or aesthetics that interest me come out of Japan. I suppose it's just a different perspective on the part of the directors or writers, but I can't connect as easily to equivalent stories coming out of my own country's entertainment industry.

That being said, I don't maintain an illusion that there is anything superior or inferior about the general "style" used in a lot of Japanese comics and animation. I just like how it looks personally. If it came from Pakistan instead of Japan I'd still have the same attraction to the style. It's all a matter of personal aesthetics. I'm not surprised, nor do I care, that some Western artists deride the style, though I wonder really if they've seen the total breadth of variety of styles that the term "manga" encompasses.

Mcjon01
February 27th, 2012, 04:37 AM
In the western world Anime doesn't exist, because if you draw it here it's a goddamn cartoon.

That's true. If you want to be technical, cartoons and anime are the same thing. Languages, how do they work?

I3uster
February 27th, 2012, 05:02 AM
Well, the definition here has shifted so that "Anime" is synonymous with "Japanese Cartoon".
Using the style of Japanese cartoons does not make your cartoon Japanese though, that's why people claiming that stuff like Avatar is Anime are wrong by definition.

Apple
February 27th, 2012, 07:09 AM
What else makes anime anime, then?

I3uster
February 27th, 2012, 08:17 AM
The only qualifier: being a cartoon made by a Japanese studio.

That's it. Can be outsourced to Korea or France, as long as it's a Japanese studio it's Anime.

Kotollama
February 27th, 2012, 08:49 AM
http://memebase.referata.com/w/images/Fat-son-1.jpg


http://cache.ohinternet.com/images/6/68/Fatson_Football.png

can't stop laughin' at this

food
February 27th, 2012, 01:33 PM
DAT NECKBEARD

Kotollama
February 27th, 2012, 03:06 PM
STILL LAUGHIN'

Apple
February 27th, 2012, 06:38 PM
A semi-new query, do art teachers you know tend to be extra biased only towards anime or only towards the idea of 'not learning anatomy before you draw' in general?

I3uster
February 27th, 2012, 07:26 PM
We can only give you vague generalizations, what do you want exactly?

terraablaze
February 27th, 2012, 07:34 PM
I've had a grand total of one art teacher. Can't really do much for you.

Satehi
February 27th, 2012, 07:46 PM
I've had an art teacher that was TOTALLY CHILL with anime, but then again maybe that's because the animu people were actually good artists.

Apple
February 27th, 2012, 08:18 PM
We can only give you vague generalizations, what do you want exactly?

1) State your sample size
2) State your experiences
3) State the limitations of your experiences, if any
4) state the country where said experiences took place, if you wish

It's that simple.

EXiku
February 27th, 2012, 08:45 PM
Not sure what I can contribute, but I'd like to share my story...

I wanted to pursue a manga-based art style because of its precision to anatomy. I became aware of the existence of anime at age 8 or (granted what I watched was aimed at an adult audience, but I didn't know) I was mystified and enchanted by the existence of cartoons with more engaging storylines that drew people as proportionally correct as possible - at least more proportionally correct than the usual stuff I watched (then much later on I found out that most of the Western animation I liked that had better proportioned characters were animated in Japan anyway...)


From then I worked hard on drawing similarly and come Secondary School, my art teacher tore all that down. I could easily blame her for hating on my work (especially when in contrast she liked my realistic drawings of fruit; flowers and animal skulls that she had us draw...) and destroying all confidence and drive, but I let her get to me. Of course at that age what you need most is encouragement, but I know that her attitude affected my decision to not take up art in Sixth Form...only towards the end of my final year did I find out that the art teachers there were more lax, since a guy I know took art and his sketchbook was full of Final Fantasy pictures copied from promo art.


Though saying that, it's pretty lame what my motivation would have been to take up art just because of the validation I'd get for my style; only now do I also realise that my Secondary School art teacher may not have been as mean as I thought she was...

Twelveseal
February 27th, 2012, 10:22 PM
Let's see...
I've had three fine arts teachers and two graphic arts teachers between middle school and high school.
One of my Fine Arts teachers, the one in middle school, hated on anything that was not traditional art no matter the circumstances. It literally had nothing to do with anatomy. She was very much a fan of realism in all of her classes. She was very opinionated on the matter, but would never explain why. It should be noted that she did like Western Cartoons either, though.

The Computer Arts teacher in Middle School didn't really give a shit about the class, or art in general. I think he just had the job because he could do it. No good examples there.

In High School, I had two Fine Arts teachers. One was more or less indifferent to it. To be honest, she was pretty much indifferent to drawing and painting as well. Her passion was in sculpting. I still remember how that class always reeked of glazes and wet clay. Her class really wasn't oriented towards accuracy, now that I think about it. She was more interested in the creativity of the students and in technical skills as opposed to precision in a single artform. That, and she was trying to rush us through to pottery and carving projects at the end of the course.

The second Fine Arts teacher I had in High School hated the anime and manga style when she saw it in her students' projects, but didn't seem to be bothered by it outside of class. Even when used in conjunction with anatomical studies, she wasn't fond of it, which makes me wonder if it wasn't something to do with the course curriculum rather than personal dislike. Even so, if asked about it, she described it as not being a form of Art, so I have a feeling things were a bit more complicated.

My Graphic Arts teacher really didn't give a shit about it. He was all about finding ways to market art and developing the technical skills needed to produce advertisements and such. Not to mention learning how to operate the press and such. To him, anime was art, but mostly it was marketable, which was what he looked at.

The fact that the only people that seemed to have beef with anime in my personal experience are the ones that focus on Fine Art specifically made me think that the problem lay there, but now that I look back on it, it may just be that such artforms are not acceptable to the standards of the Classes more than the Teachers.

I can't say anything for college level courses, but that might be part of it.

Ruu-tan
February 28th, 2012, 06:53 AM
I have several art teachers in my current seventeen years.

The earliest I could recall... Well, he was nice and basically taught the basic of drawings. I was still very young and not yet introduced to anime (or rather, didn't know what the heck 'anime' is) so I just happily had his lessons until he suddenly quit for reasons I forgot. As I entered elementary school, my parents me to a rather famous local art tuition. The teacher was more inclined to realism, most of what I drew would be landscapes, animals, fruits, etc. I had started to love anime by then and would draw crappy anime-style sketches and stick figures (lol) at my grandparent's, but I still enjoyed trying something different. Not to mention scared of that teacher, she's like a lioness... I quit near the time I entered middle school due to conflicting schedules.

Around the second year of my Middle High, I entered yet another art tuition. The head teacher is very talented, but he's against anime-style. One of his assistants, however, is a Kamen Rider fanboy and, to an extent, anime. Said assistant later opened his own art class which I entered during high school and still attend until now. The man is rather open-minded and doesn't mind a bit of freedom, though he will put his feet down once in a while....

A few months ago, I had to take up prep class for my entrance exam. Coincidentally, the teacher was my father's business acquaintance. He never said anything against anime-style, but he more or less sent the unsaid message that I might want to learn more realism if I were to survive my future college days. At least I learnt a lot of techniques from this guy.

However, I personally feel that the person who actually made me interested in anime would be my best friend whom I met near the end of my elementary school days. Now, this is what I call someone who truly love art (anime-style, anyway). She would bring her anime disc jackets to copy from during recess and made mini doujins of her favorite series. We quickly became friends due to our similar interests. Not to mention she's very friendly and good in convincing others. We went to different school in our fourth grade, but we managed to be friends until now and share sketches every now and then.

Eh, anyway. Except for my current art teacher, the others I was tutored under are either against anime-style or subtly trying to tell me off it.

Altima of the Gates
March 2nd, 2012, 09:54 PM
Ah, this. I remember when my art teacher in high school put up a picture on the front door of his classroom that one student drew of Goku from Dragonball, and put a caption under it that said:

"If you continue to do this, you have no future in art."

Just whoa. Considering I have an Art degree and was involved in the making of a couple games, that sure showed him.

Five_X
March 2nd, 2012, 10:05 PM
Was it a good picture, Altima, or just some crap that was put on the door?

Ivan The Mouse
March 2nd, 2012, 11:46 PM
Ah, this. I remember when my art teacher in high school put up a picture on the front door of his classroom that one student drew of Goku from Dragonball, and put a caption under it that said:

"If you continue to do this, you have no future in art."


Art in the museums and galleries where nobody wants to visit oftenly, maybe.

Neir
March 3rd, 2012, 12:12 AM
People always like to assume that their way (and the way they were taught) is best. It's the whole 'if it was good enough enough for x, it's good enough for you' argument.

Not a very good argument, all things considered.

Ivan The Mouse
March 3rd, 2012, 12:27 AM
People always like to assume that their way (and the way they were taught) is best. It's the whole 'if it was good enough enough for x, it's good enough for you' argument.

Not a very good argument, all things considered.

No wonder that their art isn't considered a "liberal art".

Neir
March 3rd, 2012, 12:28 AM
*rimshot*

Mashina
March 6th, 2012, 12:58 PM
Whenever anyone says to me that "Anime art isn't real art", I tell them "That's what they said about the impressionists."
It tends to shut them up.
But yeah, the fine art world is ridiculously conservative. If you do anything that isn't in fashion, it will be labelled as crap.

Kotollama
March 6th, 2012, 01:00 PM
MANGA MUSEUM, NOW!

okay, at least Tezuka does have one. 8D

Twelveseal
March 6th, 2012, 06:28 PM
Eh, it's more like... The Fine Art world's "in style" consists almost entirely of things that are actually at least a generation out of style. Which might be a big part of why many talented artists don't actually become widely popular until after their deaths.

Then again, that's just my opinion on it.

Ivan The Mouse
March 7th, 2012, 12:39 AM
Eh, it's more like... The Fine Art world's "in style" consists almost entirely of things that are actually at least a generation out of style. Which might be a big part of why many talented artists don't actually become widely popular until after their deaths.

Then again, that's just my opinion on it.

Fine Art People = Consummate Hipsters

King Rorthur
March 7th, 2012, 03:19 AM
Fine Art People = Consummate Hipsters

Agreed with the Moose.

food
March 7th, 2012, 03:12 PM
Fine Art People = Consummate Hipsters

Not really, Fine Art People are the real ones who have taste.

It is the Modern Art/Avant Garde people who should go die.

ReverseLogic
March 7th, 2012, 06:59 PM
Not really, Fine Art People are the real ones who have taste.

It is the Modern Art/Avant Garde people who should go die.

Modern Art:
http://www.google.com/url?source=imglanding&ct=img&q=http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-e2aJXImlhfY/TcKrSw69D4I/AAAAAAAAAIU/xjjNNNGj_Fw/s1600/modern_art.jpg&sa=X&ei=I-ZXT7XbA4is2gW4sZjcDg&ved=0CAkQ8wc4QA&usg=AFQjCNGZ29UtLE3q1Gb1LDF1czBg4tibkQ

If you make up enough BS about its deeper meaning, anything can be art! ♥
http://www.google.com/url?source=imglanding&ct=img&q=http://toilet-guru.com/pictures/france-art-dscf9033.jpg&sa=X&ei=6OdXT82MCIac2AWGiI3bDg&ved=0CAoQ8wc&usg=AFQjCNHY2vljybNxq3EGegC0dqVJhmbVZg
Anything ♥

TypeWannabe
March 9th, 2012, 07:52 PM
If anybody actually got paid a substantial amount of money for that, I want to find them and punch them.

ReverseLogic
March 9th, 2012, 11:03 PM
Don't know if a substantial amount of money was handed out, but apparently that urinal is considered a landmark in modern art. Sadly it seems you can't punch the guy, 'cause according to the wikipedia article, he's dead (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fountain_(Duchamp)). Professional troll or art fail, you decide ♥

Ivan The Mouse
March 9th, 2012, 11:36 PM
Don't know if a substantial amount of money was handed out, but apparently that urinal is considered a landmark in modern art. Sadly it seems you can't punch the guy, 'cause according to the wikipedia article, he's dead (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fountain_%28Duchamp%29). Professional troll or art fail, you decide ♥

wwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww

Kotonoha
March 10th, 2012, 12:27 AM
And yet Dadaism was still a hundred times more creative than kids who draw animu in art class.

ReverseLogic
March 10th, 2012, 12:53 AM
True; at least Dadaists don't trace. :P

Apple
March 10th, 2012, 04:56 AM
Lol, all the people who I know are in art trace.

I used to be fervently averse to tracing. Problem was, my art teachers would ridicule me for not tracing, because 'everyone does it'. Maybe it's a cultural difference.

Ivan The Mouse
March 10th, 2012, 06:08 AM
True; at least Dadaists don't trace. :P

I beg your pardon. Dadaism is worst than tracing, it is stealing. You take an object that was manufactured by factories, put a creative name and deeper meaning to it and call it your artwork.

By that logic, I could take Mona Lisa, name it as something else and give it a deeper meaning and call it my art. And Marcel Duchamp did (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L.H.O.O.Q.) that.

Ruu-tan
March 10th, 2012, 09:20 AM
Tracing, in my opinion, is more like practicing. So long as you don't claim it as your own, it's not stealing.

Kotonoha
March 10th, 2012, 09:41 AM
I beg your pardon. Dadaism is worst than tracing, it is stealing. You take an object that was manufactured by factories, put a creative name and deeper meaning to it and call it your artwork.

By that logic, I could take Mona Lisa, name it as something else and give it a deeper meaning and call it my art. And Marcel Duchamp did (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L.H.O.O.Q.) that.

I beg to differ.

-Duchamp: lol I'm defacing a copy of this well-known work of art to make a statement / claiming this random object is a "sculpture" to piss off the art community <--pretty cool idea and original/shocking at its time (plus nobody was deceived into thinking he painted the Mona Lisa or built the urinal)
-Animu kiddies tracing: hurr I can't draw so I'm going to copy a picture somebody else drew, and tell people it's my original work since nobody can tell otherwise, and get praise on deviantArt for it. <--shit and dishonest, and yet tons of people on the internet do it

Also you clearly have no idea what Dada was if you think it's entirely based around found objects. Look it up.

tl;dr: The hipster trend of saying "art is dumb lol!", and thinking they're the first one to make that observation, has now gone so far that they will mock/condemn the people who made a movement out of saying the same damn thing.

(I feel like Seika.)

TypeWannabe
March 10th, 2012, 09:52 AM
Hipsters inherently hate each other, Koto. That's nothing new.

ReverseLogic
March 10th, 2012, 01:40 PM
But one sided hatred is so mainstream. Clearly equal opportunity hatred is the way to go. :ciel:

Ivan The Mouse
March 10th, 2012, 02:20 PM
Also you clearly have no idea what Dada was if you think it's entirely based around found objects. Look it up.

tl;dr: The hipster trend of saying "art is dumb lol!", and thinking they're the first one to make that observation, has now gone so far that they will mock/condemn the people who made a movement out of saying the same damn thing.

(I feel like Seika.)

Hell, I looked it up, back before I had an internet connection at home, back before I knew what the Internet is. I still think that just because it attacks traditional art and its aesthetics, doesn't mean it is intelligent and not pretentious. Have you even seen the Dadaist manifesto? It is incomprehensible, like an art film. If it is supposed to be like that, don't think their anarchistic and anti-artistic still has a point. No wonder they became like the punk subculture that used to be revolutionary and offending, now a mainstream thing that represents that thing they rebelled against. They hated art, but became the triumphant example of art.

This is coming from someone who has some Dadaist influences in philosophy,

On the other hand, we at our drawing class were taught that Western comics artists do something that is almost the same as tracing, and it is okay. Copying poses, to be exact.

So no, Dadaism is worst than tracing.

ReverseLogic
March 11th, 2012, 12:12 AM
Warning, impending tl;dr ahead :neco_arc::

To be more serious in my discussion of this, at the end of the day, I think in the end it's all ultimately subjective. Both have their uses and values, and both have their low points. As silly and pretentious as current Dadaist art can get though, I still object more to tracing.

I'm not saying that there is no value whatsoever in tracing; it's a good way to start developing basic art skills and thus make it easier to master more advanced skills later on. It's also nice when a budding artist hasn't quite yet learned how to reference yet.

What I object to more is the compulsion of some tracers to trace another work nearly wholesale (often resulting in a product with inferior quality) and then claim it as their own. What's worse is that such people tend to be proud of their tracing and will brag about their artistic skill.

Despite the pretentiousness that Dadaism has developed, what makes it slightly more justifiable to me is that there tends to be more creative thought involved. With the instances of tracing I mentioned, the creative thought proccess tends to be something more along the lines of, "Look at my totally original character you gaiz!!!" Plus there's a moral issue of claiming what is practically someone else's work as one's own. This is just my opinion though; again, the whole thing is subjective, so pretty much if there's a resonable justification for that viewpoint, it's acceptable.

More on topic, I think the issue of disliking the "anime" style of art is also, when all is said and done, subjective. In my opinion though, probably the three main viewpoints that result in the active dislike of that particular art style are old fashioned pretentiousness, a view of it as simply "cartoons" and therefore "not to be taken seriously" or overexposure to bad examples.

I can sympathize with the last view point; I actually like the manga art style, and I don't actively dislike anime, but many a bad artist with an ego the size of the entiretly of North America tends to try to emulate this art style (see at least 80% of Deviant Art), and that can make the style seem more obnoxious than it really is. These "artists" also tend to be the types that reject criticism and feel that they don't require improvement. For a person that has little exposure to better examples before hand or didn't grow up with anime to begin with, this can get frustrating, and thus they have trouble assuming positive atributes to the art style, regardless of source or quality. So thus when they see someone drawing with that style, they reject it based on reflex.

It's actually kinda funny in my case. Until recently I thought I was an anime fan... Then I realized the reason I watch the majority of the anime I watch is because they're delightfully cheesy and so bad that they're good. :P Carnival Phantasm is the only anime I've watched recently that's been an exception to this rule :3. (...why yes, I haven't watched the Fate Zero anime yet, how ever did you guess? :neco_arc:) Hell, I haven't even watched a that much anime; only about ten I can even recall really watching, off the top of my head, and some of those were from when I was a kid. I tend to like manga just fine, though. :)

Kotonoha
March 11th, 2012, 12:28 AM
On the other hand, we at our drawing class were taught that Western comics artists do something that is almost the same as tracing, and it is okay. Copying poses, to be exact.

So no, Dadaism is worst than tracing.

Just because you like Western comics doesn't mean tracing is better than art, sorry. :P

(Believe me, comic artist pose copying is not "okay" at all. And it looks incredibly stupid when they copy from porn...)

Kyuu
March 11th, 2012, 12:52 AM
"Tracing" is not a good way to learn. It's better to learn the fundamental skills instead. It takes more effort, but the end results are far better. Tracing would only render one's drawing ability as limited. Has anyone here mentioned Mark Crilley's YouTube archive? He has plenty of tutorials there.

I am someone who can only draw stick figures or the "cartoon" fox in my signature.

Ivan The Mouse
March 11th, 2012, 12:55 AM
Just because you like Western comics doesn't mean tracing is better than art, sorry. :P

No. You don't call Dadaism as art, it is called as anti-art. For the movement, it was the offshoot of World War 1 back then and for the rest of the world, it was their equivalent of September 11 attacks. So there, the Dadaists thought that the world was ugly and destructive and it doesn't deserve art, so they created anti-art just to kick everyone's spirits down after a war, just because they lost hope on it. They created all sorts of things just to offend people which, of course, was very good for a Europe who is still under PTSD and economic depression.

In the end, they just created things for the hell of offending people, no more meaning. Much like a bunch of metalheads who are using Satanic imagery just to piss off moralists, without making a statement, except that their statement lacks depth to it. Then, a much bigger sequel to World War 1 came, and it was what the Dadaists wanted: A chaotic world.

Eventually, they Dadaists just abandoned the cultural movement, looked back and realized it was nothing but them being angry.

And no, Koto-nee, even if Western comic books are much more tolerable, I don't like them. At least anime has dignity in killing off characters. Tracing is a sin, but Dadaism is equivalent to Satanism just for the edgy hell of it.

Kotonoha
March 11th, 2012, 01:00 AM
No. You don't call Dadaism as art, it is called as anti-art
These days we consider it an art movement regardless. Because fuk da poleece


In the end, they just created things for the hell of offending people, no more meaning. Much like a bunch of metalheads who are using Satanic imagery just to piss off moralists, without making a statement, except that their statement lacks depth to it. Then, a much bigger sequel to World War 1 came, and it was what the Dadaists wanted: A chaotic world.
Not going to lie, the way you put it makes me think "this sure sounds like something Mouse would like". Aren't you always ranting about how the world sucks and you want to destroy things.


equivalent to Satanism
Hey, what's wrong with Satanism, it's less violent or hateful than Christianity/Islam/Judaism at least.

Ivan The Mouse
March 11th, 2012, 01:07 AM
These days we consider it an art movement regardless. Because fuk da poleece

Just like Reddit or 9Gag is considered equals with 4chan. Except that is it not.


Hey, what's wrong with Satanism, it's less violent or hateful than Christianity/Islam/Judaism at least.

No, there's nothing wrong with Satanism. I met Satanists before, and they're just people with belief. But as I said, Tracing is a sin, but Dadaism is equivalent to Satanism just for the edgy hell of it. If you know a bit about the early history of Black Metal, some pioneers of that music genre actually are violent enough to burn down churches, even the oldest ones.

ReverseLogic
March 11th, 2012, 01:12 AM
I certainly don't disagree with the fact that learning the fundamental skills is far better. :) When I refered to tracing as a learning tool, I meant it in the most basic sense; that is for an artist just barely starting out who needs to learn very basic skills. Probably the attempt to explain everything in one tl;dr post didn't help make things very clear. ^^" Hell, the only tracing I ever did was when I was 12, and I got bored of it real fast and just started doin' my own thang. :neco_arc:My statement was more of an attempt to acknowlege that tracing has at least a little value, rather than just dismissing it wholesale. That being said, I still find tracing far more deplorable than Dadaism. Again, that's just my opinion though, so take it with a grain of salt. :p

Kotonoha
March 11th, 2012, 01:14 AM
Just like Reddit or 9Gag is considered equals with 4chan. Except that is it not.
I still don't know what 9Gag is, but as a user of both Reddit and 4chan, I can confirm that they are basically the same thing.

I also just noticed that this conversation has taken a nonsensical path.
How dare my mean art teachers say anime isn't art -> their just jellis, fine art is dumb! -> yeah, look at what those dumb artists think is art! (link to dadaist pieces) -> dada was better art than animu -> but dada was not art!

Was it or wasn't it? And if you can make that claim (that being offensive on purpose is bad, and means it's not art), is it really any worse to claim anime isn't art?

ReverseLogic
March 11th, 2012, 01:24 AM
Attempting to quantify what is and what isn't art is fun isn't it? :3 More seriously though, is there really any way to come to a definite conclusion of what is and what isn't art? Just these past few posts alone show how subjective the whole subject is, and with such a wide variation of opinion, is it possible to quantify that into one standard?

Kotonoha
March 11th, 2012, 01:29 AM
That's what I am kind of getting at, you can't say "how dare they say [style I like] is not art, those pretentious artists. Also [style I don't like] is not art"

Ivan The Mouse
March 11th, 2012, 01:32 AM
I still don't know what 9Gag is, but as a user of both Reddit and 4chan, I can confirm that they are basically the same thing.

Maybe Reddit, fine, but 9gag, no.


I also just noticed that this conversation has taken a nonsensical path.
How dare my mean art teachers say anime isn't art -> their just jellis, fine art is dumb! -> yeah, look at what those dumb artists think is art! (link to dadaist pieces) -> dada was better art than animu -> but dada was not art!

Was it or wasn't it? And if you can make that claim, is it really any worse to claim anime isn't art?

First of all, I didn't claim that Postmodernism isn't art. The problem with Postmodernist art was it was influenced by Dada, which labelled itself as anti-art. Take note that it was much more of a cultural movement, yet it influenced or might even have heralded Postmodern Art (http://www.sociology.org/content/vol004.001/locher.html). And Dada, for the third time, was anti-art in essence and name, according to the Hans Richter himself, one of the earliest Dadaists.

So, how could you claim that Dada was better art than animu and mango, if it didn't call itself art in the first place?

Kotonoha
March 11th, 2012, 01:33 AM
So, how could you claim that Dada was better art than animu and mango, if it didn't call itself art in the first place?

Because anime doesn't call itself art either.

Ivan The Mouse
March 11th, 2012, 01:37 AM
Because anime doesn't call itself art either.

And so, how can we say that just because anime doesn't consider itself art, it already means it is bad?

Sure, Dada isn't art and I see it as bad, but I didn't say that it is bad because it is not art. I hated the roots and modus of the movement, not the fact that it didn't consider itself as art.

ReverseLogic
March 11th, 2012, 01:38 AM
That's what I am kind of getting at, you can't say "how dare they say [style I like] is not art, those pretentious artists. Also [style I don't like] is not art" That's kinda how I feel, to be honest. ^^" I have a hard time determining if something should be considered an art form or not because it is so subjective, and so my personal scale tends not to be geared towards what is or isn't art, but how good or creative the art is vs how shitty or uncreative it is. I actually haven't really thought about something that is drawn or presented as an art piece not being art, execpt in the context of someone not thinking it's art for some reason. As a half Bio major who on the whole tends to like clear cut values for the classification of things, what are the variables that usually determine these sorts of judgements?:confused:

Kotonoha
March 11th, 2012, 01:40 AM
And so, how can we say that just because anime doesn't consider itself art, it already means it is bad?

I don't recall anyone saying that.

I do seem to recall you bitching about fine art in general and how artists are JUST SO JELLY of anime.


and so my personal scale tends not to be geared towards what is or isn't art, but how good or creative the art is vs how shitty or uncreative it is

Yeah, this is pretty much what I've been talking about the whole time.

Generic highschooler's drawing of Goku doesn't have any emotion or creativity/originality behind it. Thus it is shit. Which is what separates it from quality work.

Same reason why I think "hey I put a white canvas in an art gallery, lol" is very clever, but only if you're the first person to do it.

IMO of course.

ReverseLogic
March 11th, 2012, 01:48 AM
Odd question, but are any of said shitty Goku drawings drawn by said generic highschoolers not traced and not colored in with colored pencil? Because that's the mental image I keep getting for some reason. :neco_arc:

Ivan The Mouse
March 11th, 2012, 01:49 AM
I don't recall anyone saying that.

Apple's art teacher did.


I find your justification jarring with the update level of my old art teachers though, one told me 'doraemon is the best anime and it is not art therefore all anime is not art, and so it sucks.'



I do seem to recall you bitching about fine art in general and how artists are JUST SO JELLY of anime.


I didn't say fine art, I said art teachers. I am bitching about art teachers and their close-mindedness on everything that they don't consider art, so therefore it sucks.

Kotonoha
March 11th, 2012, 01:54 AM
Odd question, but are any of said shitty Goku drawings drawn by said generic highschoolers not traced and not colored in with colored pencil? Because that's the mental image I keep getting for some reason. :neco_arc:

Not traced with coloured pencils - poorly eyeballed with HB pencils!

http://i630.photobucket.com/albums/uu21/ibrodie/SDC11434.jpg

Searched photobucket for "goku drawing", immediately found tons of what I was thinking of


Apple's art teacher did.
I don't recall Apple's art teacher participating in this discussion. How exactly do you know what he/she said on the subject?



I didn't say fine art, I said art teachers. I am bitching about art teachers and their close-mindedness on everything that they don't consider art, so therefore it sucks.
Actually you said "fine art people" which is pretty broad

ReverseLogic
March 11th, 2012, 02:02 AM
Not traced with coloured pencils - poorly eyeballed with HB pencils!

http://i630.photobucket.com/albums/uu21/ibrodie/SDC11434.jpg

Searched photobucket for "goku drawing", immediately found tons of what I was thinking of
Quality! :neco_arc: Aww, my mental image was so close, just not quite there. :( ...Also why does Goku have boobs? :neco_arc:

Ivan The Mouse
March 11th, 2012, 02:06 AM
I don't recall Apple's art teacher participating in this discussion. How exactly do you know what he/she said on the subject?

The art teacher rooted this. Apple's complaint about art teachers made him create this thread.


Actually you said "fine art people" which is pretty broad

And do you know what they consider "fine art" now? Just look at Wikipedia's "Fine Art" article and see.

http://img849.imageshack.us/img849/4319/finearticle.png

Postmodern art. And I can't forget the word Disumbrationism.

Kotonoha
March 11th, 2012, 02:10 AM
The art teacher rooted this. Apple's complaint about art teachers made him create this thread.



And do you know what they consider "fine art" now? Just look at Wikipedia's "Fine Art" article and see.

http://img849.imageshack.us/img849/4319/finearticle.png

Postmodern art. And I can't forget the word Disumbrationism.

Good for them, then.

Ivan The Mouse
March 11th, 2012, 02:19 AM
Good for them, then.

Yes. And as much as Postmodern art is influenced by Dada, it still has the originality and creativity that can't be found in Dada or tracing.

Kotonoha
March 11th, 2012, 02:26 AM
I don't know about "not creative".

>Present postcard of Mona Lisa with moustache drawn on
>Later present another Mona Lisa postcard without moustache drawn on, declare it a "shaved" version

Shit's fucking funny.

TypeWannabe
March 11th, 2012, 02:43 AM
Art is really...well, vague, when you get down to it. In a way, it encompasses all the human senses and beyond. Hell, writing is a form of art, as is music, dancing. I'm not debating that anime isn't art, nor Dadaism isn't legitimate, I just fail to see how people can look at anime and say that isn't art, or that it is somehow inferior to other forms.

ReverseLogic
March 11th, 2012, 02:58 AM
Exactly this. Again, I'm not sure how you quantify art beyond actual quality, since it truly is so subjective. I wonder how many of the debates over this topic are trying to apply values to what art is and isn't and how many are just trying to say, "the things I like are better than the things you like." (note: this doesn't apply to the present conversation, as the present debate is clearly a legitimate one; this is to refer to the attempts at quantification as a whole, and across a variety of people).

You gotta admit that the "Mona Lisa's Moustache" thing is clever, though. :3

Seika
March 11th, 2012, 03:41 AM
I beg to differ.

-Duchamp: lol I'm defacing a copy of this well-known work of art to make a statement / claiming this random object is a "sculpture" to piss off the art community <--pretty cool idea and original/shocking at its time (plus nobody was deceived into thinking he painted the Mona Lisa or built the urinal)
-Animu kiddies tracing: hurr I can't draw so I'm going to copy a picture somebody else drew, and tell people it's my original work since nobody can tell otherwise, and get praise on deviantArt for it. <--shit and dishonest, and yet tons of people on the internet do it

Also you clearly have no idea what Dada was if you think it's entirely based around found objects. Look it up.

tl;dr: The hipster trend of saying "art is dumb lol!", and thinking they're the first one to make that observation, has now gone so far that they will mock/condemn the people who made a movement out of saying the same damn thing.

(I feel like Seika.)

Meh, your lectures need to be longer. And include quotes. Quotes solve everything. :p

Sylon
March 11th, 2012, 10:42 AM
To argue about what is art and what is not is, at its heart, a meaningless argument. 'Art' was originally a classificatory term. As the definition of 'art' expanded, however, it lost its purpose in being used in classification. Part of this is due to the fact that the definition of 'art' was never really agreed on apart from a vague conception, which led to the aforementioned urinal being classified as 'art'.

These days, everything in existence can conceivably be called 'art'. Games can be an art. Writing can be an art. Cooking can be an art. Sitting around doing nothing can be considered 'art'- the famous 'The Artist is Present' exhibit is proof. Thus, the term 'art' has lost its meaning as a term of classification, and is only evoked in the present day when one wishes to draw prestige to their work (i.e. "My cooking is not merely just cooking, it is an art, and I am an artist.").

That is my two cents on this issue.

ReverseLogic
March 11th, 2012, 03:06 PM
Oh wow, I can't believe I forgot about food art; not only can cooking be an art, but actual dishes can be works of art themselves :):
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_mmBw3uzPnJI/SSgHdTMmv4I/AAAAAAAAWdA/loSa_ekWz5I/s400/Russian-Cake-Art-06.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_mmBw3uzPnJI/SSgHdZ9NjYI/AAAAAAAAWdI/bgCRfv7g8XQ/s400/Russian-Cake-Art-05.jpg
http://amazingdata.com/mediadata16/Image/art_stuff_cool_crazy_offbeat_cake_art_52_200907271 54720151.jpg
http://www.myunusual.com/Pix/Art/cake%20Art/cake%2065.jpg
http://static.binscorner.com/c/cake-art/125065517346.jpg
Those are all cakes. :D I also love all the stuff people do with bento boxes. :3 Food art is great because not only does it look great, but it's edible too! :o

Ivan The Mouse
March 11th, 2012, 03:33 PM
Food art is great because not only does it look great, but it's edible too! :o

But I would not be able to eat that. Because it is already eye candy! ;_X

Ruu-tan
March 12th, 2012, 08:25 AM
I'd keep them preserved for my great grandchildren.

geenius3ab
March 12th, 2012, 12:29 PM
To be quite honest, I respect the artists who put tons of details into their pictures, and made it look like the picture was real. I'd understand if the teachers would think that would be the only art that matters.. But now there's imperssionism, etc, which doesn't really have detail in it, and is FAR from how much time the paintings took in the past.
The art now seems somewhat lazy. The anime art can be beautiful and seemingly complete with tons of detail, and it is great to look at, can't say the same about a number of artists (For example my current art teacher seems quite proud about the ''art'' that she does, but honestly you can look at it for 2 seconds and you've had enough.).

Kotonoha
March 12th, 2012, 12:40 PM
What I think:

We all pretty much seem to agree that anything can be art. A blank canvas for example.

But in a school you have to put actual effort into your work. So submitting a blank canvas, or a simplistic cartoon, does not fly. So students are expected to use styles that require some amount of work.

Basically just because it's an art class doesn't mean you can use the "everything can be art" excuse to submit anything you want. Otherwise you'd have people being lazy on purpose and saying their lack of a painting is a painting in itself and is so deep man.

Fantabulous
March 12th, 2012, 07:16 PM
Otherwise you'd have people being lazy on purpose and saying their lack of a painting is a painting in itself and is so deep man.

I've done that before.

Got a B.

ReverseLogic
March 12th, 2012, 10:42 PM
But I would not be able to eat that. Because it is already eye candy! ;_X
I hear ya. ;_; When I was a kid, every time my mom would get me a fancy frosted cookie, I had a hard time eating it because I always though they were so pretty. So I made her let me take pictures of it so I could eat it without guit. :3 I couldn't make myself eat chocolate bunnies either. ^^"


I'd keep them preserved for my great grandchildren.

I wonder if there's actually a way to preserve cake that long without losing it's original appearance. But even if there isn't, we can find a way, with science!!! http://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-science.gif


What I think:

We all pretty much seem to agree that anything can be art. A blank canvas for example.

But in a school you have to put actual effort into your work. So submitting a blank canvas, or a simplistic cartoon, does not fly. So students are expected to use styles that require some amount of work.

Basically just because it's an art class doesn't mean you can use the "everything can be art" excuse to submit anything you want. Otherwise you'd have people being lazy on purpose and saying their lack of a painting is a painting in itself and is so deep man.
This. There's also the fact that mastering or at least learning about the higher effort styles will also increase aptitude with the more simplistic styles, and produce better results for both. Learning how to draw human anatomy properly is a good example of this; it's easier to draw something that is more stylized and simplistic and yet still visually appealing when one has at least a decent understanding of how to draw proper anatomy. It's quite rare to be able to just start out drawing cartoons or drawing in the anime style and show talent for it instantly:

http://i.imgur.com/uU2yh.png
"Animu Enthusiast" Art Student: "Hey sensei-san, look at this drawing I did! Isn't it kawaii desu? ^_^"
Teacher: "...Your ability to conceptualize the basic framework is still weak."
"Animu Enthusiast" Art Student: "T_T"

I've done that before.

Got a B. :neco_arc:

Kotonoha
March 12th, 2012, 11:05 PM
http://i40.tinypic.com/14wva6v.jpg

ReverseLogic
March 12th, 2012, 11:08 PM
http://i40.tinypic.com/14wva6v.jpg

Glorious

Five_X
March 13th, 2012, 12:04 AM
Wow, did you do that Photoshop, Koto? (Kotoshop??)

That's actually really impressive.

PHOTOSHOP IS AN ART FORM NOW

Ivan The Mouse
March 13th, 2012, 01:06 AM
I think it is just a generator. But I could be wrong.

Kotonoha
March 13th, 2012, 01:09 AM
He's right, it's a generator.

Five_X
March 13th, 2012, 03:17 AM
Oh.

BUT STILL

ReverseLogic
March 13th, 2012, 12:54 PM
A generator did that?! http://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-aaa.gif Because seriously, that photoshop is amazing.

Fantabulous
March 13th, 2012, 04:35 PM
I must have a link to said generator.

Ivan The Mouse
March 13th, 2012, 06:26 PM
I must have a link to said generator.

Aye!

Kotonoha
March 13th, 2012, 07:47 PM
http://photofunia.com/

Go have fun, you crazy kids.

Ruu-tan
March 14th, 2012, 06:06 AM
I wonder if there's actually a way to preserve cake that long without losing it's original appearance. But even if there isn't, we can find a way, with science!!! http://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-science.gif


Where there's a want, we will make our way. WITH SCIENCE.

Hm, my Elementary teacher used to call blank pictures as "Polar Bears in the Middle of Hail". Just saying.

ReverseLogic
March 14th, 2012, 06:24 PM
Where there's a want, we will make our way. WITH SCIENCE.

Hm, my Elementary teacher used to call blank pictures as "Polar Bears in the Middle of Hail". Just saying.

That's one (really cute) way of looking at it. :) Huh, now that I think about it, I think I heard something similar as a kid... but I can't remember exactly what it was.:( Also, even when there is no way, we can make a way... with SCIENCE!!!
https://wearscience.com/img450/germf.png
https://wearscience.com/img450/moonf.png
https://wearscience.com/img450/jurassic.png
https://wearscience.com/img450/show.png
https://wearscience.com/img450/robot.png

Ruu-tan
March 15th, 2012, 05:11 AM
Fufufu, indeed.

SCIENCE! *high five*

Ivan The Mouse
March 15th, 2012, 07:10 AM
http://davidbarsalou.homestead.com/LICHTENSTEINPROJECT.html

Roy Lichtenstein is one of the first Modern artists I've ever encountered, back when I was a kid reading Grolier Encyclopedia.

Apple
March 15th, 2012, 07:19 AM
Actually, after seeing all the people going 'anime sucks' on Youtube I have a feeling that this is the result of an elaborate trolling session coupled with conservative artsy mindsets that managed to carry its momentum over into reality.

The overpopulation of tsundere and moeblob anime probably isn't helping either.

Now everyone's spouting it like sheep. Anime sucks anime sucks maaaa~a baa~a.

Ivan The Mouse
March 15th, 2012, 07:28 AM
Actually, after seeing all the people going 'anime sucks' on Youtube I have a feeling that this is the result of an elaborate trolling session coupled with conservative artsy mindsets that managed to carry its momentum over into reality.

The overpopulation of tsundere and moeblob anime probably isn't helping either.

Now everyone's spouting it like sheep. Anime sucks anime sucks maaaa~a baa~a.

I have my doubts.

0SilverHawk0
March 15th, 2012, 07:52 AM
Actually, after seeing all the people going 'anime sucks' on Youtube I have a feeling that this is the result of an elaborate trolling session coupled with conservative artsy mindsets that managed to carry its momentum over into reality.

The overpopulation of tsundere and moeblob anime probably isn't helping either.

Now everyone's spouting it like sheep. Anime sucks anime sucks maaaa~a baa~a.
Replace 'Anime sucks!' with just about any other medium, and you'll find a similar bunch of haters. Metal in particular gets much more narrowminded criticism than anime does. People just judge crap on stereotypes without giving it a chance, and it's going to keep happening for quite awhile, I think.

Apple
March 15th, 2012, 08:39 AM
Well, they don't tell you 'metal sucks' in music school... do they?

Wait, all the metal bands are self-taught? My respect for them just increased tenfold

Kotonoha
March 15th, 2012, 09:25 AM
Actually, after seeing all the people going 'anime sucks' on Youtube I have a feeling that this is the result of an elaborate trolling session coupled with conservative artsy mindsets that managed to carry its momentum over into reality.

The overpopulation of tsundere and moeblob anime probably isn't helping either.

Now everyone's spouting it like sheep. Anime sucks anime sucks maaaa~a baa~a.
You can't just accept that people don't like what you like, it has to be a conspiracy now?

Apple
March 15th, 2012, 10:02 AM
Beliefs do not sprout out of nothing. Rain does not spontaneously generate.

Similarly, art teachers do not consistently dislike things for no reason.

Kotonoha
March 15th, 2012, 10:41 AM
Have you considered that perhaps the problem lies with anime?

I dunno, seems like you're just mad at your teachers and you want us to reassure you that anime is awesome and anyone who dislikes it is trolling or elitist.

Ivan The Mouse
March 15th, 2012, 11:15 AM
Have you considered that perhaps the problem lies with anime?

I dunno, seems like you're just mad at your teachers and you want us to reassure you that anime is awesome and anyone who dislikes it is trolling or elitist.

I don't think it lies on anime alone. It might lie on anime, anime fans or anti-anime people who were either anime fans once or consistently anti-anime. Much more those who were once anime fans.

Apple
March 15th, 2012, 11:31 AM
Have you considered that perhaps the problem lies with anime?

I dunno, seems like you're just mad at your teachers and you want us to reassure you that anime is awesome and anyone who dislikes it is trolling or elitist.

There are better places I could go if I wanted to seek reassurance.

I'm looking for reasoning because quite frankly I'm seeing an effect but not a cause. It's bewildering and unsettling.

It most certainly isn't the fault of the plotline because art teachers don't give jack about that (at least, the ones I had never did) and it can't be the music so it's got to be the art.

If it's the art it's got to be the lantern eyes, which is problematic considering many cartoons also have lantern eyes but receive much better standing. Also, I have never seen anyone bother asking art teachers to draw anime, or saying that they want to draw only anime. Not in my year, and not in my senior's year. And that was around the time anime got popular too. So the situation where teachers hate it because too many people bug them over it is obviously wrong as well.

There is simply no explanation to the ambiguity of the nature behind the hate at present, and that frustrates me.

Kotonoha
March 15th, 2012, 11:35 AM
It's hard to say this and not sound mean but... maybe your teachers just felt that the anime you drew was not very good?

Apple
March 15th, 2012, 11:42 AM
Come to think of it, they never wanted to see anything. They just heard 'anime' and reacted like I'd said 'fuck you and your mother'.

Ivan The Mouse
March 15th, 2012, 11:43 AM
It's hard to say this and not sound mean but... maybe your teachers just felt that the anime you drew was not very good?

Did he draw one?

Apple
March 15th, 2012, 11:45 AM
In any case, I have the unsaid belief that my drawings and anything I do sucks badly in general so I wouldn't be offended if you called them sixth-rate pieces of trash.

mangafreak7793
March 16th, 2012, 01:01 AM
I have a friend who is a bit like that he loves ancient Japan but hates modern Japan for stuff like anime and manga and considers it low-brow and not very serious, etc,etc,etc while considering American comics as very serious and intricate. (Did I mention he's very patriotic)

Five_X
March 16th, 2012, 03:42 AM
I have a friend who is a bit like that he loves ancient Japan but hates modern Japan for stuff like anime and manga and considers it low-brow and not very serious, etc,etc,etc while considering American comics as very serious and intricate. (Did I mention he's very patriotic)

'MURRICA!!

Ivan The Mouse
March 16th, 2012, 03:56 AM
but hates modern Japan for stuff like anime and manga and considers it low-brow and not very serious, etc,etc,etc while considering American comics as very serious and intricate. (Did I mention he's very patriotic)

Anime has the shame of making the same characters many times in different shows and calling it "archetype" but as much as I think the art in American comics that was not done by Rob Liefeld are practically much more aligned in human anatomy, they have shame of practically refusing to kill characters.

Five_X
March 16th, 2012, 03:59 AM
I think that comics at least have more asspulls and retcons. Partially due to their age and nature, of course.

I do recall an article I once found comparing anime and western animation... it was pretty fantastic, actually, but I can't find it any more.

Apple
March 16th, 2012, 11:30 AM
Anime has the shame of making the same characters many times in different shows and calling it "archetype" but as much as I think the art in American comics that was not done by Rob Liefeld are practically much more aligned in human anatomy, they have shame of practically refusing to kill characters.

'Archetype'?

I think you mean 'tsundere'.

Ivan The Mouse
March 16th, 2012, 07:38 PM
'Archetype'?

I think you mean 'tsundere'.

Not just 'Tsundere'. How about 'Moeblob' or 'Dandere' or 'Dense MC' or more? I don't exactly hate these 'archetypes', but they are almost analogous to a character that refuses to die.

Apple
March 17th, 2012, 12:52 AM
Tsundere is a class of archetype in itself. It's so fucking common that you can't even sub-classify it under archetypes anymore.

You have tsundere, and then you have archetypes.