PDA

View Full Version : Fate/stay night - Fate Route



Pages : [1] 2

DragoZERO
March 19th, 2011, 11:01 AM
This is the discussion thread for the Fate route of Fate/stay night, meant for those who have only finished up to Fate or wish to only discuss it. Please put plot points that occur outside of Fate in spoiler tags.

http://i.imgur.com/5MrNk.jpg

Fate is the first route in Fate/stay night and is centered out Saber.

More Info: Type-Moon Wiki (http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Fate_%28route%29) (spoilers)

TypeWannabe
April 8th, 2012, 10:22 AM
Remember when Shirou and Saber teamed up to impale motherfuckin' Heralces on a lightsaber and then have it blow up? Then Gilgamesh and Saber face off, but she's getting owned, but then Shirou has his second epiphany and blasts through all the evils of the world with Avalon and closes in to Kotomine for the final kill as Saber risks it all for one last Excaliblast?

And then both Gilgamesh and Kotomine get mutually owned as Shirou stabs Kotomine through the chest, runs back around in a circle and punches the dagger's hilt and it explodes, essentially stabbing Kotomine in half? And Gilgamesh seems to temporarily not be crazy and says some philosophical stuff before fading away?

And then Shirou has his first epiphany in the Church's basement where he gets mind raped but resolves to keep going for the ones that died in the fire ten years prior? Then Lancer holds off Gilgamesh for half the day as Saber and Shirou finally confess they love each other and make sweet sweet love? But at the end of the route Saber has to go back to her time because of her honor and even though Shirou wants her to stay, if he truly loves her he cannot besmirch her honor?

Then Archer holds off Heracles and actually kills him five or so times by himself, possibly without using Unlimited Blade Works but we don't know that for sure?

Fate route is good shit.

bahamut zero
April 8th, 2012, 10:24 AM
but boring in comparison :/

I3uster
April 8th, 2012, 10:34 AM
6/10 compared to the action scenes in the other routes.

I am sorry Fate route. I like how you sell us on Shirou's Ideal and how you are pretty much the best lovestory out of the three routes, but your action scenes comparatively suck.

Lycodrake
April 8th, 2012, 10:36 AM
...honestly I like this Route more than UBW and HF at times, though I admit that the fight scenes were...shoddy most of the times.

[Edit] I like HF mainly because of Shirou VS Saber Alter. And because Rider.

TypeWannabe
April 8th, 2012, 11:34 AM
How many people like Last Episode? Keyne, don't answer this, your opinion is already known.

I3uster
April 8th, 2012, 11:34 AM
I don't, and I use every chance I get to bring this up.

eddyak
April 8th, 2012, 11:36 AM
Last Episode was weirdly worded as fuck.

Mcjon01
April 8th, 2012, 11:37 AM
I like it and all, but if there's one thing it definitely isn't, it's "clear and understandable".

I3uster
April 8th, 2012, 11:42 AM
It's so weird I can easily make it sound like it's the most horrible bad end ever, worse than Shirou and Rin getting Dark Sakura'd until the end of their days.

Which is what I think Nasu even wanted. He gave such an incredibly stereotypical happy end it becomes grotesque again, as a reaction to fan reaction. Like a kid who lets everyone play with his dented football, and once they complain that the football has dents he just packs it up and goes home, because nobody appreciated his football.

Anno-tier trolling ladies and gents.

SeiKeo
April 8th, 2012, 11:43 AM
I like it and all, but if there's one thing it definitely isn't, it's "clear and understandable".

Lot's of speculation for everyone!

Mike1984
April 8th, 2012, 11:43 AM
How many people like Last Episode? Keyne, don't answer this, your opinion is already known.

I certainly don't....

Tobias
April 8th, 2012, 12:00 PM
Fate scenes weren't awesome? How about when HOLY SHIT Gil just went all out EA and saber just tanked it like a BAWS and excalliblated the fuck out of him how AWESOME was that?

TypeWannabe
April 8th, 2012, 12:01 PM
It wasn't all out.

terraablaze
April 8th, 2012, 12:03 PM
I certainly don't....

Would you really want Shirou spending precious text space talking about how he misses Saber in the True End of Heaven's Feel? Or even worse, seemingly unrelated text about how Saber finnally found the Grail so don't worry she's cool now?

TypeWannabe
April 8th, 2012, 12:03 PM
Wow that's pretty crazy. Nasu had to tell people 3 times that Saber went to Avalon? I mean I was lurking here too for that last one as I recall but still for some reason that blows me away.

At least I can say that it was a version of Archer that got into Avalon and into Saber!

TypeWannabe
April 8th, 2012, 12:04 PM
Would you really want Shirou spending precious text space talking about how he misses Saber in the True End of Heaven's Feel? Or even worse, seemingly unrelated text about how Saber finnally found the Grail so don't worry she's cool now?

I don't see how that has to do with his post at all.

terraablaze
April 8th, 2012, 12:04 PM
How did your response end up in this thread?
^
because he doesn't like Last Episode because NO MENTION OF SAKURA WORST ENDING EVAH! SAKURA DESERVES MOAR!

TypeWannabe
April 8th, 2012, 12:07 PM
Except nothing he said in those three words implied that at all. People are more than just one thing.

I3uster
April 8th, 2012, 12:07 PM
Fate scenes weren't awesome? How about when HOLY SHIT Gil just went all out EA and saber just tanked it like a BAWS and excalliblated the fuck out of him how AWESOME was that?
I guess 7/10?

terraablaze
April 8th, 2012, 12:09 PM
Except nothing he said in those three words implied that at all. People are more than just one thing.

I guess he also doesn't like it because he thought it was pandering to Saber fans. If that wasn't what he was thinking he can correct me, I was just trying to save time by not asking and then waiting for his reply.

It's what he has talked about in the past though so I thought it was fair game.

TypeWannabe
April 8th, 2012, 12:12 PM
Eh, as long as you owned up to your mistake.

Mcjon01
April 8th, 2012, 12:16 PM
Except nothing he said in those three words implied that at all. People are more than just one thing.

You understand that Mike has talked about this before, right? Extensively. We all know how he feels about Last Episode and why, we don't have to infer anything.

Mike1984
April 8th, 2012, 12:17 PM
Would you really want Shirou spending precious text space talking about how he misses Saber in the True End of Heaven's Feel? Or even worse, seemingly unrelated text about how Saber finnally found the Grail so don't worry she's cool now?

That would be different, because Saber is dead in HF True, whereas Sakura is still very much alive (and being tortured) in Fate. Plus, LE Shirou is supposed to be a "hero", and yet he's not shown saving one of his closest friends from a living hell. Further, LE is not an ending you get following Fate, it's an ending that you get as a "reward" for completing the whole game (i.e., most likely just after completing HF...). I don't see why it should be expected to be Saber-centric.

But, regardless of that, I still don't like it. It's totally non-sensical (there's no way Shirou could go to Avalon) and it totally destroys the message that the rest of the story gives about heroism and Shirou's ideal. It's just pointless fluff that was added because Saber fans moaned that she didn't get to be with Shirou.

TypeWannabe
April 8th, 2012, 12:18 PM
But it shouldn't be that way! Just because all somebody does is talk about that one thing forever and ever, doesn't mean that's all he does! Everybody deserves as many chances as it takes.

terraablaze
April 8th, 2012, 12:20 PM
It's totally non-sensical (there's no way Shirou could go to Avalon)

I may, or may not address the rest of your post at a later time when I have time to burn, but this I have to get out of the way now.

You are not the author. Deal with it. He had a magic soul overwriting sheath in him for 10 years, that sounds good enough to me (whatever the actual reason is).

eddyak
April 8th, 2012, 12:23 PM
Not an expert or anything, but Merlin might still be around, and Shirou had Avalon in him, he'd projected it and knew how it worked.

It's not as far fetched as all that.

Lycodrake
April 8th, 2012, 12:24 PM
Merlin got stuck in a tree. =P

Mike1984
April 8th, 2012, 12:24 PM
The fact that Nasu decreed it as possible does not mean that I have to like his blatent fanservicey retcon....

Mcjon01
April 8th, 2012, 12:26 PM
What exactly did it retcon again?

eddyak
April 8th, 2012, 12:26 PM
Retcon?

Far as I know, it wasn't ever stated to be impossible for Shirou/EMIYA to find his way there.

I3uster
April 8th, 2012, 12:27 PM
Nasu is better than blatant fanservice imo.

So, you can either go by the people who say that he's better than blatant fanservice and this was the cherry on top of the F/SN sundae or you can go with me and say that he's better than blatant fanservice and proceeded to troll the fuck out of people wanting a better ending for SEIBAH.

ratstsrub
April 8th, 2012, 12:28 PM
"WAH WHY SABER END SO SAD!"

"Lol you're right LE GET!"

Fucking Last Episode.

Altima of the Gates
April 8th, 2012, 01:22 PM
You understand why it came to be the way it was because of how Nasu operates. I for one have no issue with LE, because there isn't anything that says Shirou can't go there. It's just like any other ending Nasu makes, and that is perfect setups for any future installment he could possibly think of. That is just how he writes. When he gives answers in something, it's mainly, imo, to provoke inquiry, speculation, and conversation on the topic. That is why he rarely gives flat out answers.

LE is just that. How did Shirou become a hero? How did he finally find his answers? What will he and Saber do for now? He makes it to give a definite conclusion while provoking the audience with filling the holes their own way. That way, no story is the final, truest, end. Maybe to him that would mean the death of a story to give such finality to it.

mAc Chaos
April 8th, 2012, 02:22 PM
For all we know part of him becoming a hero was saving Sakura.

Fate was my favorite route. Although that partly has to do with the fact that the anime is what introduced me to the franchise and I liked it. Everything was new to me then and had a greater impact. Plus I always liked Saber best and considered that the "default" route. The other two routes were still good though.

Mike1984
April 8th, 2012, 02:27 PM
Yeah, but that's the point. We don't know. And, since LE was shown after HF, there's no reason Nasu couldn't have told us.

mAc Chaos
April 8th, 2012, 02:32 PM
That ending was just about Saber and Shirou though. It's not like it said anything about Rin or anyone else. I mean, I doubt most people thought of Sakura when they were watching it.

Since it's up in the air, just decide whatever pleases you most. If that means he saved Sakura, then go with that.

Crown
April 8th, 2012, 02:34 PM
I remember l3uster wanting a happy end for Ciel too. He said that Saber and Arc fans already got our happy endings, or something like that.

Laith
April 8th, 2012, 02:36 PM
Well Ciel already got a Good End.

Cue rage in 3... 2..

I3uster
April 8th, 2012, 02:37 PM
I remember l3uster wanting a happy end for Ciel too. He said that Saber and Arc fans already got our happy endings, or something like that.
Ciel has a happy end. I just want Good End to stop existing.

Tobias
April 8th, 2012, 02:50 PM
Look, I love ciel and all, but her true end was about as happy as you get. I mean, how do you even sweeten that up without harem antics?

I3uster
April 8th, 2012, 02:51 PM
What are you trying to say?
I am absolutely happy with her True end. I don't need a better end, it's already the best.

But good end needs to die.

Tobias
April 8th, 2012, 02:53 PM
They could move her good end to poor akiha. Psuedo arc NTR would still be a step up.

Keyne
April 8th, 2012, 06:29 PM
Wow, you guys actually talk in these threads. 'C'

Vigilantia
April 8th, 2012, 09:10 PM
What was so bad about Ciel's good end?
Alright men, I want .50 cals on the wall! I want those artillery pieces deployed and ready to fire on pre-set co-ordinates! The flames are comming, boys! Batten down the hatches!

telesbleach
April 8th, 2012, 10:12 PM
It has Arcueid in it. lol

Crown
April 8th, 2012, 10:59 PM
l3uster is not fond of harem. I presume he craved for an unique CielxShiki ending. This is of course, my personal point of view regarding this subject.

Seika
April 8th, 2012, 11:26 PM
Fate? Like I3uster said, its love story is probably the best out of the three. The action scenes vary, I think. I have a definite soft spot for the first unveiling of Excalibur, but some of the others just didn't work so well for me - Caliburn, for example. Nasu failed to wow me enough there, so I ended up losing my SoD at the bizarre way Saber and Shirō are trying to use it. My broadsword teacher would have had a fit (speaking of which, I notice that the F/Z animators actually did look up some basic broadsword stances at the least, which was very good of them).

LE? Not bad at all, but I'm not going to declare it the BEST END EVAR (HF Normal still holds that place in my heart). Yeah, Last Episode wasn't exactly clear, but I thought that worked. It's all about an endless pursuit of a lover in fairyland. Clarity and exposition aren't necessarily fitting for that, I'd say.

Lycodrake
April 8th, 2012, 11:31 PM
My broadsword teacher would have had a fit (speaking of which, I notice that the F/Z animators actually did look up some basic broadsword stances at the least, which was very good of them).
Seika has a broadsword teacher? Awesome.
And I strongly agree that Nasu seriously messed up with the Caliburn usage.

Laith
April 9th, 2012, 12:19 AM
LE? Not bad at all, but I'm not going to declare it the BEST END EVAR (HF Normal still holds that place in my heart). Yeah, Last Episode wasn't exactly clear, but I thought that worked. It's all about an endless pursuit of a lover in fairyland. Clarity and exposition aren't necessarily fitting for that, I'd say.

Look! I can just quote Seika and add "Yeah that's how I feel too" and not bother typing my opinion. Fun.

I3uster
April 9th, 2012, 06:19 AM
What was so bad about Ciel's good end?
Alright men, I want .50 cals on the wall! I want those artillery pieces deployed and ready to fire on pre-set co-ordinates! The flames are comming, boys! Batten down the hatches!
"Hey Ciel, remember how I am the only reason that you're not killing yourself and got you out of deep depression by pretty much confessing to you?" (lolerogamelogic)
"Yeah."
"Well, I am going to screw around with the vampire whose fault it is that your life was fucked up in the first place."
"Allright"

Mcjon01
April 9th, 2012, 06:21 AM
Technically it was Roa's fault, and Arcueid is the only reason she's alive with her original personality intact at all. If anything, Ciel is in her debt.

I3uster
April 9th, 2012, 06:24 AM
Reasoning with Ciel when it comes to her past is a task as fruitless as trying to fight full powah Arc.

Keyne
April 9th, 2012, 06:29 AM
Postan Ciel in a Fate thread, yo!

Mcjon01
April 9th, 2012, 06:31 AM
The beauty of these threads right now is that they all got necro'd at the same time, and everybody is discussing the right topics, just in the wrong threads. It's all mixed up!

Keyne
April 9th, 2012, 06:34 AM
Oh, then I fret to think what's going on in th HF thread. 'C'

I3uster
April 9th, 2012, 06:36 AM
HF thread had LE discussion.

It's totally out there, man. Simultaneous derails, everywhere.

Keyne
April 9th, 2012, 06:48 AM
HF thread had LE discussion.

It's totally out there, man. Simultaneous derails, everywhere.
WOAH HOLAY FOOK!

Seika
April 9th, 2012, 07:17 AM
LE? Not bad at all, but I'm not going to declare it the BEST END EVAR (HF Normal still holds that place in my heart). Yeah, Last Episode wasn't exactly clear, but I thought that worked. It's all about an endless pursuit of a lover in fairyland. Clarity and exposition aren't necessarily fitting for that.
Look! I can just quote Seika and add "Yeah that's how I feel too" and not bother typing my opinion. Fun.
Seika. Allowing forumites to be lazy since October 2011. :p

(Notice: The "Seika" product has many, many uses. This was achieved through experimental AI technology and sorcery from beyond the stars. Abuse of your Seika bot may result in temporary distortion of physics, SAN loss and tentacle rape. The company disclaims all liability for these events, the Supreme Court having defined them as 'Acts of God'. We hope you find yourself 100% satisfied with our product! :) )


WOAH HOLAY FOOK!

Keyne, you're never allowed to be near a Mancunian. Ever.

Keyne
April 9th, 2012, 07:32 AM
(Notice: The "Seika" product has many, many uses. This was achieved through experimental AI technology and sorcery from beyond the stars. Abuse of your Seika bot may result in temporary distortion of physics, SAN loss and tentacle rape. The company disclaims all liability for these events, the Supreme Court having defined them as 'Acts of God'. We hope you find yourself 100% satisfied with our product! :) )
*imagines Seika commiting self-tentacle-rape*

*C*

Flame
April 23rd, 2012, 09:24 AM
I read LE back in the days I was a big Saber-phile and it was really touching, but that was probably more due to the great music than anything. Nowadays it's more like "it doesn't make sense, but it's really nice so who gives a fuck". To avoid repeating what everyone else is saying, LE was a great way to wrap up fate/stay night and I honestly can't think of a better way Nasu could have ended the VN.

Come to think of it, there was someone on old BL who kept insisting that LE was "written by Takeuchi since he was such a big Saber fan, not Nasu" and whenever that person was asked for his source he would reply "I don't remember who told me, but it was someone reliable." Not sure if the poor dumbass ever realized he wasn't fooling anyone.

Mike1984
April 23rd, 2012, 09:38 AM
To be fair, when you're talking about this, "I don't remember but it was someone reliable" isn't really that silly a response, given the number of people who would be considered more "reliable" than normal....

I disagree about it being a "good way to wrap up Fate/Stay Night", though. It's totally Saber-centric and ignores everyone else (other than Shirou, of course) entirely. It doesn't "wrap up Fate/Stay Night". It wraps up the Fate route, perhaps, but the VN has two entirely seperate routes and a bunch of character development for Shirou (and everyone else) which it just outright ignores.

Mcjon01
April 23rd, 2012, 09:55 AM
It's a decent enough epilogue for FSN, so long as you're looking at the work as a story about an ideal, rather than characters.

Flame
April 23rd, 2012, 10:10 AM
To be fair, when you're talking about this, "I don't remember but it was someone reliable" isn't really that silly a response, given the number of people who would be considered more "reliable" than normal....

Not so much a silly response as it is totally out of the blue and totally without any backup. It doesn't help that person's case when the only instance of someone claiming that "Takuechi wrote LE, not Nasu" was uttered by him/her/it alone and supported by no one else.

Then again I might be overly critical of the guy/girl/thing. I just don't understand where this mysterious "someone reliable" came from.


I disagree about it being a "good way to wrap up Fate/Stay Night", though. It's totally Saber-centric and ignores everyone else (other than Shirou, of course) entirely. It doesn't "wrap up Fate/Stay Night". It wraps up the Fate route, perhaps, but the VN has two entirely seperate routes and a bunch of character development for Shirou (and everyone else) which it just outright ignores.

Eh, understandable. If LE was all about Sakura I would most likely have the same reaction as you. But again, I was a Saber-phile so I didn't care that it was "Saber-centric". Besides, if you look at it from a business perspective, it totally makes sense (Saber is the most popular heroine and with the largest fanbase, let's give them something/please them the most).

Kotonoha
April 23rd, 2012, 10:14 AM
Come to think of it, there was someone on old BL who kept insisting that LE was "written by Takeuchi since he was such a big Saber fan, not Nasu" and whenever that person was asked for his source he would reply "I don't remember who told me, but it was someone reliable." Not sure if the poor dumbass ever realized he wasn't fooling anyone.
He read it in my book, of course!

Mike1984
April 23rd, 2012, 10:17 AM
It's a decent enough epilogue for FSN, so long as you're looking at the work as a story about an ideal, rather than characters.

Except that that still doesn't work, because in so far as it's a "story about an ideal", Last Episode totally contradicts everything that's gone before. If you treat it in that way, then Last Episode is a total Deus Ex Machina ending, with the ideal dying (or, at least, being reformed in a fundamental way) under the assault of reality only to magically sprout back up out of nowhere on the final page without ever addressing the problems that killed it in the first place.


Eh, understandable. If LE was all about Sakura I would most likely have the same reaction as you. But again, I was a Saber-phile so I didn't care that it was "Saber-centric".

Well, exactly.

It's fine if you're a Saber fan, but as an ending to the story as a whole it fails miserably.


Besides, if you look at it from a business perspective, it totally makes sense (Saber is the most popular heroine and with the largest fanbase, let's give them something).

Honestly, I don't give a fuck about the "business perspective". That sort of argument really pisses me off....

Mcjon01
April 23rd, 2012, 10:20 AM
The ideal didn't die, Mike. Heaven's Feel was just one answer out of many.

Kotonoha
April 23rd, 2012, 10:21 AM
If HF actually led people to believe the ideal "died", Last Episode probably WAS a good idea.

Mike1984
April 23rd, 2012, 10:28 AM
The ideal didn't die, Mike. Heaven's Feel was just one answer out of many.

The point is that, if you take the story as a whole, then the ideal clearly gets discarded as a result of what happens in HF, and since HF is the last route it provides the "ending" of the story as a whole (excluding Last Episode, obviously). If you treat the three routes as stand-alone entities which do not form a coherent story, on the other hand, then calling HF "one answer out of many" makes perfect sense, but in that case I don't see how you can call Last Episode anything other than a belated ending to the Fate route.


If HF actually led people to believe the ideal "died", Last Episode probably WAS a good idea.

Well, then, what would you say was the meaning of HF (in terms of the ideal, I mean)...?

Mcjon01
April 23rd, 2012, 10:32 AM
If you treat the three routes as stand-alone entities which do not form a coherent story, on the other hand, then calling HF "one answer out of many" makes perfect sense, but in that case I don't see how you can call Last Episode anything other than a belated ending to the Fate route.


This game is describing the growth of the main character Emiya Shirou. The first storyline shows his slanted mind, the next storyline shows his resolve, and the last storyline gives another resolution for him as a human. All three storylines are essentially equal, but they have different forms.

It's like you're sarcastically reading Nasu's mind!

Oh, and

since HF is the last route it provides the "ending" of the story as a whole
is one of the sillier things you've ever said, but I don't really have much else to say about it.

Kotonoha
April 23rd, 2012, 10:38 AM
The point is that, if you take the story as a whole, then the ideal clearly gets discarded as a result of what happens in HF, and since HF is the last route it provides the "ending" of the story as a whole (excluding Last Episode, obviously). If you treat the three routes as stand-alone entities which do not form a coherent story, on the other hand, then calling HF "one answer out of many" makes perfect sense, but in that case I don't see how you can call Last Episode anything other than a belated ending to the Fate route.
But FSN has three endings. Fate and UBW are not invalidated by HF's existence. One of them has to be last, but that doesn't mean that it's the be-all-end-all of the routes. Otherwise why even bother having three routes, just make "Heaven's Feel: the Game".


Well, then, what would you say was the meaning of HF (in terms of the ideal, I mean)...?
That the ideal does not necessarily HAVE to be followed. Not that it cannot be or that it's wrong. Just that it's a choice (like how in UBW he chose it even after seeing the risks).

If people are interpreting it as "oh, since HF was the last route, in the end the ideal was bad and should be discarded" (which some people seem to actually believe), that contradicts Nasu's statements that there are in fact multiple answers. Lots of people seem convinced that HF is the "only right answer" and that Fate Shirou becomes Archer or something (both of which Nasu has denied). So I think that may be why LE exists in the first place, to counteract the misconception that "last route = ONLY TRUE END".

Mike1984
April 23rd, 2012, 10:51 AM
I don't consider HF to be the "only right answer", but Last Episode is quite clearly not an ending for the game as a whole. It's an ending to the Fate route which Nasu added to appease Saber fanboys.

Kotonoha
April 23rd, 2012, 10:53 AM
So how is HF True an "ending for the story as a whole" while LE isn't?

Oh right, because HF True was added to appease you​. :P

Mike1984
April 23rd, 2012, 10:54 AM
I didn't say it was. I said that, if you consider the whole thing as one story, then HF comes last, and thus is the "ending", at least until you add Last Episode.

Kotonoha
April 23rd, 2012, 10:56 AM
So if "being last" is the only requirement, then Last Episode is the ending for the story as a whole.

What is the problem?

Kratosirving
April 23rd, 2012, 11:09 AM
Isn't Last Episode basically similar to how Tsukihime comes full circle with Eclipse? That's how I see it anyhow. :/

Keyne
April 23rd, 2012, 11:11 AM
By the end of HF pretty much the whole story is wrapped up. Just two things are missing: the fate of Fate!Shirou and Saber's first wish for herself. That's where the LE comes in.

Isn't Last Episode basically similar to how Tsukihime comes full circle with Eclipse? That's how I see it anyhow. :/
Oh, you too?

Laith
April 23rd, 2012, 11:13 AM
...If you go by normal playthrough wouldn't you watch HF True first before HF Normal? That's how I, and some others I'm guessing, did it at least.

Mike1984
April 23rd, 2012, 11:16 AM
So if "being last" is the only requirement, then Last Episode is the ending for the story as a whole.

What is the problem?

Then the "story as a whole" makes no sense, because the last chapter totally contradicts all the "development" which happens in the chapters immediately proceeding it.

Therefore, treating FSN as a single "story" with a beginning and an "end" does not make sense if you add Last Episode, and thus Last Episode does not make sense as an ending for the entire story. Thus, it is an Fate ending, and nothing more.


...If you go by normal playthrough wouldn't you watch HF True first before HF Normal? That's how I, and some others I'm guessing, did it at least.

Yeah, me too, actually. That's not explicitly defined to be true, though. It's possible to see either first, depending on your choices.

Mcjon01
April 23rd, 2012, 11:23 AM
Therefore, treating FSN as a single "story" with a beginning and an "end" does not make sense if you add Last Episode, and thus Last Episode does not make sense as an ending for the entire story.

Nooooo, you're misunderstanding totally. Treating all of FSN as a single "story" doesn't mean Fate is the beginning and Heaven's Feel is the end. It all runs in parallel. Non-standard story structure.

Mike1984
April 23rd, 2012, 11:36 AM
But Last Episode is clearly an ending to the Fate part of that, not the story as a whole. If it was an ending to the story as a whole then it wouldn't ignore the other two routes entirely....

Bloble
April 23rd, 2012, 11:37 AM
Yeah, me too, actually. That's not explicitly defined to be true, though. It's possible to see either first, depending on your choices.

Actually, I'm pretty sure you can only see HF True the first time around, and you can only get HF Normal after getting HF True. Might be wrong about that though.

Also, there's a theory that the Shirou we see in LE is actually Archer. I'm not sure if that was disproved or not though.

eddyak
April 23rd, 2012, 11:38 AM
I read Normal first, then True.

Bloble
April 23rd, 2012, 11:40 AM
I read Normal first, then True.

That's weird. For me the first time I finished HF it automatically went to True without giving me a choice, and I had to go back and play through it again to see Normal.

Laith
April 23rd, 2012, 11:40 AM
Actually, I'm pretty sure you can only see HF True the first time around, and you can only get HF Normal after getting HF True. Might be wrong about that though.

If you choose to help Rider against Saber Alter with projection you are locked to the Normal Ending no questions asked.

Mike1984
April 23rd, 2012, 11:43 AM
Yeah. Also, if you don't get enough Ilya points you're stuck with HF Normal (although it's difficult to fail that one).

Keyne
April 23rd, 2012, 11:58 AM
Also, there's a theory that the Shirou we see in LE is actually Archer. I'm not sure if that was disproved or not though.
The Shirou we see there is still very much alive, so no, it's not Archer.

Kotonoha
April 23rd, 2012, 12:01 PM
But Last Episode is clearly an ending to the Fate part of that, not the story as a whole. If it was an ending to the story as a whole then it wouldn't ignore the other two routes entirely....
But HF's ending ignores the other two routes too... notably in the complete absence of one of the heroines, and "friendzoning" of another one.

aldeayeah
April 23rd, 2012, 12:03 PM
As for the paralellism with Eclipse, I don't see it. Eclipse reunites the MC and his mentor, and it's almost route agnostic on its own (the only direct link with Arc route is via Tsukihime 2 shenanigans). But LE, I can only see it as an answer to Continuation of the Dream.

FSN's Eclipse equivalent would involve a Shirou-Kiritsugu meeting IMO.

I consider HF True the "truest" ending because of its closure. It's not that I consider it more canon than the other endings, it's that I consider it more of an ending.

Mike1984
April 23rd, 2012, 12:05 PM
But HF's ending ignores the other two routes too... notably in the complete absence of one of the heroines, and "friendzoning" of another one.

Yeah, which is why it's the end to HF and not the end to the story as a whole.

Also, Rin really doesn't get "ignored" in HF. Hell, IMO, she gets more character development there than in her own route....


As for the paralellism with Eclipse, I don't see it. Eclipse reunites the MC and his mentor, and it's almost route agnostic on its own (the only direct link with Arc route is via Tsukihime 2 shenanigans). But LE, I can only see it as an answer to Continuation of the Dream.

FSN's Eclipse equivalent would involve a Shirou-Kiritsugu meeting IMO.

Yeah, exactly.


I consider HF True the "truest" ending because of its closure. It's not that I consider it more canon than the other endings, it's that I consider it more of an ending.

Yeah, HF is the only end which really resolves all the outstanding issues that could pop up. Although, I guess Last Episode semi-resolves Shirou's issues (although ignoring Sakura's, Rin's and Ilya's...).

Laith
April 23rd, 2012, 12:11 PM
I think Koto meant Saber on the absence thingy

Mcjon01
April 23rd, 2012, 12:15 PM
But Last Episode is clearly an ending to the Fate part of that, not the story as a whole. If it was an ending to the story as a whole then it wouldn't ignore the other two routes entirely....

That's why I said it's only a decent epilogue if you refuse to interpret anything that happens in LE literally and assume that none of the actual details are important because it's all allegorical abstract symbolism designed to close the book on the overarching theme of FSN.
Hahaha, wait, nm, I didn't actually say that I just thought it in my head then typed something else. Oops. <_<;;

(Not necessarily my views on LE, just my views on how one could go about seeing it as a final epilogue.)

Mike1984
April 23rd, 2012, 12:16 PM
But it's not "allegorical abstract symbolism", the whole thing is about Shirou chasing Saber. Sakura and Rin don't even get a mention.

Kotonoha
April 23rd, 2012, 12:17 PM
Yeah, HF is the only end which really resolves all the outstanding issues that could pop up. Although, I guess Last Episode semi-resolves Shirou's issues (although ignoring Sakura's, Rin's and Ilya's...).
Well, FSN is about Shirou.

So in that sense you could say it's Eclipse-like (since Eclipse was all about Shiki).

The difference being that Tsukihime doesn't have a "last" ending.

SeiKeo
April 23rd, 2012, 12:18 PM
But it's not "allegorical abstract symbolism", the whole thing is about Shirou chasing Saber. Sakura and Rin don't even get a mention.

But Saber is the metaphor. You have only begun to stratch the surface of the allegory.

Mcjon01
April 23rd, 2012, 12:18 PM
But it's not "allegorical abstract symbolism", the whole thing is about Shirou chasing Saber. Sakura and Rin don't even get a mention.

Saber would represent the ideal. Because "ever-distant utopia".

Kotonoha
April 23rd, 2012, 12:20 PM
Well she IS an idealized hero I guess?

Mike1984
April 23rd, 2012, 12:21 PM
Saber would represent the ideal. Because "ever-distant utopia".

Which is in itself totally biased towards Fate as a route....

I3uster
April 23rd, 2012, 12:23 PM
Well, Realta Nua WAS made to profit from the hugely succesful Anime.

eddyak
April 23rd, 2012, 12:24 PM
Well, duh it's biased. Nasu's a writer, not a goddamned judge.Of course he's going to have favourites.

Kotonoha
April 23rd, 2012, 12:25 PM
Well, duh it's biased. Nasu's a writer, not a goddamned judge.Of course he's going to have favourites.
That is only acceptable if his favourite is also my favourite!

eddyak
April 23rd, 2012, 12:27 PM
Of course his favourite is your favourite. Shinji got Sakura sex and probably a-bunch-of-other-school-wimminz sex.

Kotonoha
April 23rd, 2012, 12:28 PM
You mean... the Shinji route was Nasu's favourite?

Of course! The reason it was cut was so he could have it all to himself! Nasuuuuuu...​

Mike1984
April 23rd, 2012, 12:28 PM
Well, duh it's biased. Nasu's a writer, not a goddamned judge.Of course he's going to have favourites.

I don't recall Saber in any way being Nasu's "favourite", though....

eddyak
April 23rd, 2012, 12:29 PM
Her route was one of his favourites, and he decided to give her an ending because she was a bunch of other people's favourites too.

I see no problem here, just whining.

mAc Chaos
April 23rd, 2012, 12:31 PM
If Mike posts in this thread enough, Nasu will change the LE.

Mcjon01
April 23rd, 2012, 12:31 PM
Well, she's the heroine of the route that's all about setting up Shirou's ideal. She's the one that more or less shares his ideal, as far as "sacrifice self! save others!" is concerned. Her sword is made of hopes and dreams, and the name of her sheath is straight up exactly what Shirou wanted to accomplish by being a superhero: world where everybody is happy = an ever-distant utopia. It's not bias toward the Fate route so much as it is taking advantage of easy symbolism that was already there.

Under this interpretation, of course.

telesbleach
April 23rd, 2012, 12:34 PM
Didin't illya said in the "valhalla hot spring" that heaven's fell is the 'true ending' of the game or something like that?

Lycodrake
April 23rd, 2012, 12:35 PM
Didin't illya said in the "valhalla hot spring" that heaven's fell is the 'true ending' of the game or something like that?
Ending of the game as in the game/VN that is F/SN, not the series or continuity. ^^;;;

Altima of the Gates
April 23rd, 2012, 12:37 PM
Well, FSN is about Shirou.

So in that sense you could say it's Eclipse-like (since Eclipse was all about Shiki).

The difference being that Tsukihime doesn't have a "last" ending.

Come to think of it, you're right. You could look at it as complete separate even if a part of the story itself.

So it's not really about anything but the end of Shirou's journey in a metaphorical sense.

Still, LE is pretty holey, it got the message across, but more info on how he got there wouldn't have hurt the overall message.

I understand the message, but it's still kinda like, "that's it?"

telesbleach
April 23rd, 2012, 12:37 PM
thats an interesting way to see it XD

Keyne
April 23rd, 2012, 12:41 PM
Still, LE is pretty holey, it got the message across, but more info on how he got there wouldn't have hurt the overall message.

I understand the message, but it's still kinda like, "that's it?"
Not only metaphorical, but physical as well.

And what you're asking for is a seperate light novel-sized story.

Mcjon01
April 23rd, 2012, 12:42 PM
thats an interesting way to see it XD

Ha, but seriously, it didn't call it the "true ending". It just said that it's a satisfactory finale for the game, since everybody's happy.

Spinach
April 23rd, 2012, 12:43 PM
But Shinji isn't happy.

He's dead.

Keyne
April 23rd, 2012, 12:44 PM
Ha, but seriously, it didn't call it the "true ending". It just said that it's a satisfactory finale for the game, since everybody's happy.
Except a few people because "Hey, that's life for you~~". X3

Mcjon01
April 23rd, 2012, 12:44 PM
Everybody. Is. Happy.

Bloble
April 23rd, 2012, 12:45 PM
But Shinji isn't happy.

He's dead.

Neither is Saber, or Illya. So really, it's more like all the purpleheads are happy. HF has a bias against blondes and light haired people!

Spinach
April 23rd, 2012, 12:46 PM
Not to mention Hassan. Sakura killed Hassan. What did Hassan do to Sakura? Mike, can you justify your waifu killing my favorite character?

Arashi_Leonhart
April 23rd, 2012, 12:47 PM
But Shinji isn't happy.

He's dead.

Nah, he'll be reincarnated. Maybe immediately after his death. So by the end of the game, he's right back in a woman's womb, where he's most comfortable.

Keyne
April 23rd, 2012, 12:48 PM
Nah, he'll be reincarnated. Maybe immediately after his death. So by the end of the game, he's right back in a woman's womb, where he's most comfortable.
IIIII C WHAT U DID THAR! 8D

Mike1984
April 23rd, 2012, 12:50 PM
Neither is Saber, or Illya. So really, it's more like all the purpleheads are happy. HF has a bias against blondes and light haired people!

Well, Ilya died smiling, at least, which is somewhat better than UBW....


Not to mention Hassan. Sakura killed Hassan. What did Hassan do to Sakura? Mike, can you justify your waifu killing my favorite character?

Well, he supported Zouken and stood there laughing as Sakura was being tortured. Plus, he was advocating killing her sister and lover....

Altima of the Gates
April 23rd, 2012, 12:51 PM
Except a few people because "Hey, that's life for you~~". X3

*shrug*
That's pretty much the way it is for all routes.

For all three routes, are the guys made sterile by Caster happy they can never have children?
Are the students happy that some of them will need plastic surgery from the Bloodfort drain(which who knows if the Church subsidizes that)?
Or the orphans?
And the list goes on.

Magi kinda aren't terribly concerned about people in general, considering how things have gone so far.

Keyne
April 23rd, 2012, 12:53 PM
Or the orphans?
Well, the orphans chose to stop whining into Shirou's ears at least.

Altima of the Gates
April 23rd, 2012, 12:54 PM
So cruel Keyne. So cruel.

Keyne
April 23rd, 2012, 12:54 PM
So cruel Keyne. So cruel.
But they did. 'C'

Spinach
April 23rd, 2012, 01:00 PM
Well, he supported Zouken and stood there laughing as Sakura was being tortured. Plus, he was advocating killing her sister and lover....

Mike, I was kidding. Anyway, Sakura didn't care too much about the first two points, or that Hassan went for Rin. She just killed him because he tried to hurt Shirou, lol.

Mike1984
April 23rd, 2012, 01:05 PM
Mike, I was kidding. Anyway, Sakura didn't care too much about the first two points, or that Hassan went for Rin. She just killed him because he tried to hurt Shirou, lol.

Well, she was Dark at the time, so I think it's somewhat unfair to blame her for not thinking particularly altruistically....

RacingeR
April 23rd, 2012, 01:07 PM
(Remember kids, for Mike being Dark is a get out of guilt free card.)

Just my two cents, and my own opinion, but I wouldn't call HF!True really happy for Rin too, or at least less happy than UBW!True/Good.

Bloble
April 23rd, 2012, 01:10 PM
Well obviously getting a boytoy/harem is better than seeing the guy you like run off with your little sister. Rin's best ending is UBW Good (or True, for some people).

Mike1984
April 23rd, 2012, 01:12 PM
(Remember kids, for Mike being Dark is a get out of guilt free card.)

Dark Sakura is clearly not sane, and insanity does imply a lack of culpability (and, therefore, guilt) so, yeah, it is....


Just my two cents, and my own opinion, but I wouldn't call HF!True really happy for Rin too, or at least less happy than UBW!True/Good.

Really?

She certainly seemed pretty happy with her life in the epilogue. Certainly, she's considerably better off than she was at the beginning of the game, or than she is post-Fate. UBW is more debatable, I guess, but then that is her route, so....


Well obviously getting a boytoy/harem is better than seeing the guy you like run off with your little sister.

On the other hand, HF Rin has her beloved little sister back and is in a position where she can likely obtain the Second Magic. I suspect that UBW Rin would envy both of those things, even if HF Rin would envy her for having Shirou (on the other hand, she might feel bad for that version of Sakura...).

I won't say HF True is definitely her best end, but I don't think it's considerably worse than UBW, if at all.

Bloble
April 23rd, 2012, 01:18 PM
Here are my opinions.

Rin's ends in order from best to worst:

UBW Good >= UBW True > HF True > Fate > HF Normal

Sakura's ends in order from best to worst:

HF True > Fate > UBW True >= UBW Good > HF Normal

Saber's ends in order from best to worst:

Fate (Last Episode) >= UBW Good > Fate (no Last Episode) >>>>> HF True = HF Normal

RacingeR
April 23rd, 2012, 01:23 PM
I was actually just making a point on calling HF True the "True End" or the "Ultimate End" or even the final end. Saber is even better as a point for that, too.

I am a Rin fan above being a Saber fan (though she is my second favorite) and I enjoyed Last Episode anyway. I dunno why is it assumed that LE!Shirou did not bother with Sakura, or Rin, or whatever. We dunno shit about what he did or what he accomplished apart of him "becoming a real hero".

Spinach
April 23rd, 2012, 01:24 PM
I dunno, Sakura's Normal end isn't all peaches and sunshine for her, but at least she's free from Zouken. Sure, she doesn't get to have any more Shirou, but she doesn't get much more Shirou in either of the UBW endings or Fate, seeing as it's pretty heavily implied that he heads out to become a SEIGI NO MIKATA. So outside of HF she still doesn't get Shirou AND she's still constantly wormraped.

Laith
April 23rd, 2012, 01:25 PM
Saber's ends in order from best to worst:

Fate (Last Episode) >= UBW Good > Fate (no Last Episode)> UBW True >>>>> HF True = HF Normal

There we go, there we go.

Mike1984
April 23rd, 2012, 01:35 PM
I am a Rin fan above being a Saber fan (though she is my second favorite) and I enjoyed Last Episode anyway. I dunno why is it assumed that LE!Shirou did not bother with Sakura, or Rin, or whatever. We dunno shit about what he did or what he accomplished apart of him "becoming a real hero".

I didn't say that, I just said that the ending does not bother with them.


I dunno, Sakura's Normal end isn't all peaches and sunshine for her, but at least she's free from Zouken. Sure, she doesn't get to have any more Shirou, but she doesn't get much more Shirou in either of the UBW endings or Fate, seeing as it's pretty heavily implied that he heads out to become a SEIGI NO MIKATA. So outside of HF she still doesn't get Shirou AND she's still constantly wormraped.

Fate and UBW Sakura has the possibility of being rescued and being happy. HF Normal Sakura is known to be totally depressed due to Shirou's death, and dies that way.

Mcjon01
April 23rd, 2012, 01:39 PM
She's not depressed because of her EX rank boundary field: Absolute Denial of Truth.

Spinach
April 23rd, 2012, 01:39 PM
Sure, in fanfics, but until Nasu pops up and says "oh, btw, Sakura gets saved at some point after UBW," I'll still consider HF Normal to be better for her than the other endings. She's still not happy in HF Normal, but at least there's no more physical torture, which is better than being unhappy AND physically tortured on a regular basis.

Kotonoha
April 23rd, 2012, 01:45 PM
Nah, he'll be reincarnated. Maybe immediately after his death. So by the end of the game, he's right back in a woman's womb, where he's most comfortable.
"Senpai, I'm pregnant."

Keyne
April 23rd, 2012, 01:46 PM
"Senpai, I'm pregnant."
Oh fuck, I lol'd hard.

eddyak
April 23rd, 2012, 01:48 PM
Oh god

Best mental image ever.

Shinji's head sticking out from between Sakura's legs, in that HF H scene CG.

"Sup Emiya?"

Flame
April 23rd, 2012, 01:51 PM
I am a Rin fan above being a Saber fan (though she is my second favorite) and I enjoyed Last Episode anyway. I dunno why is it assumed that LE!Shirou did not bother with Sakura, or Rin, or whatever. We dunno shit about what he did or what he accomplished apart of him "becoming a real hero".

I always thought the theme for LE was "a guy who never asked for anything continues strive for a miracle for all eternity" and "a girl who never asked for anything continues to wait for a miracle for all eternity" and they're both rewarded for that patience. I never understood what Sakura or anyone else had to do with that.

Keyne
April 23rd, 2012, 01:58 PM
I always thought the theme for LE was "a guy who never asked for anything continues strive for a miracle for all eternity" and "a girl who never asked for anything continues to wait for a miracle for all eternity" and they're both rewarded for that patience. I never understood what Sakura or anyone else had to do with that.
Aaaaah, someone also grasped that idea~~

I'm so happy.

Altima of the Gates
April 23rd, 2012, 01:59 PM
Which is why I pretty much said that everyone gets a turn at the short end of the stick. I wish I had that page from the Rosario+Vampire manga where the author pretty much spelled out his viewpoint on harem/everyone happy endings and the implausibility.

And Rin and Rider do seem awfully friendly in HF True as well. Even if she is Sakura's servant, she's pretty much allowed to do almost whatever she wants, and Rin can concentrate on her research, since Sakura is the Supervisor.

Saber is likely, no matter what, to go to Avalon upon death, so that isn't that bad.

And like Spinach said, Sakura takes much of what happens in stride and besides the denial, lives fairly happily if melancholic in HF Normal, teaching her sister's granddaughter magic.

Now if only he hadn't been such a tease with that "10 years later conflict", which who knows if he'll ever make, I'd be satisfied.


I always thought the theme for LE was "a guy who never asked for anything continues strive for a miracle for all eternity" and "a girl who never asked for anything continues to wait for a miracle for all eternity" and they're both rewarded for that patience. I never understood what Sakura or anyone else had to do with that.

Understood, which is why I just think of it as the last 2% of Fate as route. I still say a little exposition wouldn't have hurt, since you could just fit it as a poetic piece as an aside, like some of the extras you see in Umineko.

Keyne
April 23rd, 2012, 02:05 PM
Saber is likely, no matter what, to go to Avalon upon death, so that isn't that bad.
That in itself isn't bad, but with what thoughts she'll go there. I don't think she'll be that happy.

Mike1984
April 23rd, 2012, 02:05 PM
Which is why I pretty much said that everyone gets a turn at the short end of the stick. I wish I had that page from the Rosario+Vampire manga where the author pretty much spelled out his viewpoint on harem/everyone happy endings and the implausibility.

And Rin and Rider do seem awfully friendly in HF True as well. Even if she is Sakura's servant, she's pretty much allowed to do almost whatever she wants, and Rin can concentrate on her research, since Sakura is the Supervisor.

Saber is likely, no matter what, to go to Avalon upon death, so that isn't that bad.

And like Spinach said, Sakura takes much of what happens in stride and besides the denial, lives fairly happily if melancholic in HF Normal, teaching her sister's granddaughter magic.

Now if only he hadn't been such a tease with that "10 years later conflict", which who knows if he'll ever make, I'd be satisfied.

So basically, Saber is just fine in every route, as is Rin, but Sakura may or may not get screwed outside of HF and Ilya definitely does outside of Fate...?

Doesn't sound like everyone getting screwed to me....

eddyak
April 23rd, 2012, 02:08 PM
Saber eventually gets the Grail and is forced into CGship by Alaya in HF, far outweighing everybody else's suffering but Archer's.

Rin spends the rest of her life as a magus (which you seem to think of as some sort of punishment, so there)

Mike1984
April 23rd, 2012, 02:11 PM
Saber eventually gets the Grail and is forced into CGship by Alaya in HF, far outweighing everybody else's suffering but Archer's.

What makes you think that?


Rin spends the rest of her life as a magus (which you seem to think of as some sort of punishment, so there)

In HF? Sure, she's a magus (just like she is in UBW...), but she's a magus who is clearly aware of her human side and who is back in contact with her sister.

The issue with Rin being a magus, fundamentally, is that it doesn't really fit with who she is as a person. In HF, she's much more able to be herself (particularly with regards to Sakura) whilst still pursuing the Second Magic.

eddyak
April 23rd, 2012, 02:15 PM
What makes you think that?
What would make you think otherwise? If she doesn't give up on the Grail (which won't happen unless she comes across someone as idiotically suicidal and in love with her as Fate Shirou was, which isn't likely, considering, y'know, magi), she'll eventually come across a Grail War of one kind or another, where she'll win, get her wish granted, and get CG'd.


In HF? Sure, she's a magus (just like she is in UBW...), but she's a magus who is clearly aware of her human side and who is back in contact with her sister.

The issue with Rin being a magus, fundamentally, is that it doesn't really fit with who she is as a person. In HF, she's much more able to be herself (particularly with regards to Sakura) whilst still pursuing the Second Magic.
Everywhere but HF. In HF, she's pretty happy.

Altima of the Gates
April 23rd, 2012, 02:19 PM
So basically, Saber is just fine in every route, as is Rin, but Sakura may or may not get screwed outside of HF and Ilya definitely does outside of Fate...?

Doesn't sound like everyone getting screwed to me....

Who knows? I doubt he can decide whether Ilya is definitely screwed or not, giving his flipflopping in that Taiga Dojo omake. Ilya did say there was a possibility, but as always, he has the character skip things he doesn't want to get into now. Same with Sakura. He does like to leave things very 'open to interpretation'.


That in itself isn't bad, but with what thoughts she'll go there. I don't think she'll be that happy.

Don't misunderstand me, I never really said it was okay for her to leave unfulfilled. But by what information we have, things are pretty much like this as of now:

Fate - Avalon with Shirou
UBW - True (Avalon alone), Good (life with Rin and Shirou, then Avalon)
HF - Still likely Avalon, though possibly alone.i don't think there is any proof Alter doesn't go to Avalon.

And if we look at the legends, she wouldn't be in Avalon alone. I'm not saying that this would heal her wounds(it may or may not), but at the least she won't be recycled and lives in paradise, and even then, it is "until an appointed time".

Mike1984
April 23rd, 2012, 02:20 PM
What would make you think otherwise? If she doesn't give up on the Grail (which won't happen unless she comes across someone as idiotically suicidal and in love with her as Fate Shirou was, which isn't likely, considering, y'know, magi), she'll eventually come across a Grail War of one kind or another, where she'll win, get her wish granted, and get CG'd.

It's not clear, but Altima certainly seemed to think otherwise.

Also, being a CG is less of an issue for her than it is for Shirou, because she never had the same objection to killing (with reason) that he has, especially with faceless people she doesn't know.


Everywhere but HF. In HF, she's pretty happy.

Oh, I see....

Well, for UBW Rin, IMO how good an ending it is for her depends on what happens in the future (particularly with Sakura, since if Rin finds out the truth and is unable to save her, she will break hard, IMO). For Fate Rin, she's probably stuck as a magus without much of a life, once again unless things change somehow.

eddyak
April 23rd, 2012, 02:23 PM
It's not clear, but Altima certainly seemed to think otherwise.

Also, being a CG is less of an issue for her than it is for Shirou, because she never had the same objection to killing (with reason) that he has, especially with faceless people she doesn't know.
Yeah, but look how averse she was to eating souls to gain power. If she had to kill people- even perfect strangers- for the rest of eternity...

Nah, she's not getting off that much better than EMIYA.

Arashi_Leonhart
April 23rd, 2012, 02:23 PM
Also, being a CG is less of an issue for her than it is for Shirou, because she never had the same objection to killing (with reason) that he has, especially with faceless people she doesn't know.

No, she still had to "harden her heart." She has pretty much the same objection, but is better than Shirou at controlling her personal feelings.

TypeWannabe
April 23rd, 2012, 02:25 PM
But hey, she's saving England for the rest of eternity! You British people should be happy!

lantzblades
April 23rd, 2012, 02:26 PM
Saber is likely, no matter what, to go to Avalon upon death, so that isn't that bad.

nasu cemented that by not altering the legend in anyway. however I'd call it bad since she doesn't go there to relax. she sleeps until the world needs her again. pretty shit lot.


Saber eventually gets the Grail and is forced into CGship by Alaya in HF, far outweighing everybody else's suffering but Archer's.

huh, there's that idea for magic wars creeping again...

Altima of the Gates
April 23rd, 2012, 02:33 PM
Yeah, but look how averse she was to eating souls to gain power. If she had to kill people- even perfect strangers- for the rest of eternity...

Nah, she's not getting off that much better than EMIYA.

I'm really doubtful in any ending she ever gets CG-ship, since she's a true hero.
She'll either go to Avalon, or be a heroic symbol for oracles to glean wisdom from.

nasu cemented that by not altering the legend in anyway. however I'd call it bad since she doesn't go there to relax. she sleeps until the world needs her again. pretty shit lot.

Well, as much as I hate that, the Nasuverse cosmology is either reincarnation through recycling, this, or the Throne.

Not too many good choices, since you kinda cease to be "you" in reincarnation except as a concept imprinted on the soul.

eddyak
April 23rd, 2012, 02:35 PM
I'm really doubtful in any ending she ever gets CG-ship, since she's a true hero.
She'll either go to Avalon, or be a heroic symbol for oracles to glean wisdom from.
She makes a deal with Alaya, and then somehow runs off to Avalon once her side of the contract is complete?

Nah.

Arashi_Leonhart
April 23rd, 2012, 02:37 PM
Faeries, man. Faeries are in with Gaia. They've got the connections.

Mcjon01
April 23rd, 2012, 02:37 PM
I'm really doubtful in any ending she ever gets CG-ship, since she's a true hero.
She'll either go to Avalon, or be a heroic symbol for oracles to glean wisdom from.

Well, if she gets the Grail that fulfills her deal with the world, which means she becomes a CG since that's what she agreed to. There won't be any shenanigans where her deal becomes void because she changed the past, because the Grail can't do something like that in the first place.

Altima of the Gates
April 23rd, 2012, 02:43 PM
Faeries, man. Faeries are in with Gaia. They've got the connections.

Alaya: *shaking involuntarily, saunters up to a small creature* You got the dust man?
Fairy: Sure do, now about that contract...
Alaya: Yeah, man, whatever! Just gimme my fix!
Fairy: Sure. Oh and if you could do something about a certain man...*waves bag in front of Alaya*
Alaya: Done! *snatches bag, runs off* See you next week!
Fairy: Another satisfied customer.


Well, if she gets the Grail that fulfills her deal with the world, which means she becomes a CG since that's what she agreed to. There won't be any shenanigans where her deal becomes void because she changed the past, because the Grail can't do something like that in the first place.

I'm aware, but she technically never 'gets' it in any route.

Keyne
April 23rd, 2012, 02:46 PM
Alaya: *shaking involuntarily, saunters up to a small creature* You got the dust man?
Fairy: Sure do, now about that contract...
Alaya: Yeah, man, whatever! Just gimme my fix!
Fairy: Sure. Oh and if you could do something about a certain man...*waves bag in front of Alaya*
Alaya: Nope. I won't do anything. Thrice as much as this, best quality, and we'll talk. Such a manslave ain't cheap.
Fairy: Well, fuck.
Alaya: That's how we roll around these parts, bitch. *backhands her and lights a cig*
fix'd

Altima of the Gates
April 23rd, 2012, 02:50 PM
Alaya: *shaking involuntarily, saunters up to a small creature* You got the dust man?
Fairy: Sure do, now about that contract...
Alaya: Yeah, man, whatever! Just gimme my fix!
Fairy: Sure. Oh and if you could do something about a certain man...*waves bag in front of Alaya*
Alaya: Nope. I won't do anything. Thrice as much as this, best quality, and we'll talk. Such a manslave ain't cheap.
Fairy: Well, fuck.
Alaya: That's how we roll around these parts, bitch. *backhands her and lights a cig*

Fairy: Fine. I just need some prune juice. Meet me at Taco Bell tomorrow at 4:30 and you'll get four times the amount. Super concentrated.
Alaya: Aww yeah.

Mcjon01
April 23rd, 2012, 02:53 PM
I think the point is that in Heaven's Feel she never really gets a reason to give up her quest for it, though. So after that scenario, it's off to somewhere new and exciting for another chance at another grail. Over and over, until she succeeds or gives up.

Keyne
April 23rd, 2012, 02:55 PM
Fairy: Fine. I just need some prune juice. Meet me at Taco Bell tomorrow at 4:30 and you'll get four times the amount. Super concentrated.
Alaya: Aww yeah.
*next day*
Alaya: *picks teeth with a toothpick* Nope, the price changed. Gimme all that you got and some explicit, naked pics of that chick with purple hair. Goddamn, is Japan the second Paris? Shit, bitch. Hahah.
Fairy: Hey, mo-fo, that wasn't the deal!
Alaya: Well, deal with it. It's "take it or leave it".

Altima of the Gates
April 23rd, 2012, 02:59 PM
I think the point is that in Heaven's Feel she never really gets a reason to give up her quest for it, though. So after that scenario, it's off to somewhere new and exciting for another chance at another grail. Over and over, until she succeeds or gives up.

Well if we have Alter's testimony in her opening movie in U/C to go by, I doubt she cares for it anymore. But again, who knows?


*next day*
Alaya: *picks teeth with a toothpick* Nope, the price changed. Gimme all that you got and some explicit, naked pics of that chick with purple hair. Goddamn, is Japan the second Paris? Shit, bitch. Hahah.
Fairy: Hey, mo-fo, that wasn't the deal!
Alaya: Well, deal with it. It's "take it or leave it".

Daaamnn. Alaya is a hard OG.

Keyne
April 23rd, 2012, 03:03 PM
Daaamnn. Alaya is a hard OG.
Yup, she(?) strikes a hard bargain, right Awcha?

aldeayeah
April 23rd, 2012, 03:54 PM
She makes a deal with Alaya, and then somehow runs off to Avalon once her side of the contract is complete?

Nah.

Nah, she just used one of the classical ways of weaseling out of a Faustian deal: not dying.

eddyak
April 23rd, 2012, 04:32 PM
She does die, though.

lantzblades
April 23rd, 2012, 04:34 PM
She does die, though.




actually she doesn't, techically she sleep heals the wounds she had while in avalon, it's a cop out yes but still...

Tobias
April 23rd, 2012, 04:36 PM
FWIW worth the only time nasu specifically confirms saber went to avalon, as something that actually happened as opposed to a metaphor or something relating to the legend or whatever is post fate route, so its a bit over confidant to say she always will no matter the route. frankly, my interpratation is she does in UBW true and and fate. everything else is either arguable (UBW good) or extremely unlikely (Either HF)

I3uster
April 23rd, 2012, 04:39 PM
I find the image of Saber Alter descending onto British soil, being mighty pissed, somehow pretty hillarious.

Mike1984
April 23rd, 2012, 04:45 PM
FWIW worth the only time nasu specifically confirms saber went to avalon, as something that actually happened as opposed to a metaphor or something relating to the legend or whatever is post fate route, so its a bit over confidant to say she always will no matter the route. frankly, my interpratation is she does in UBW true and and fate. everything else is either arguable (UBW good) or extremely unlikely (Either HF)

The problem is that the only way Saber can not go to Avalon is by causing a time paradox. If she erases herself from existence (as a hero, at least), then she cannot be summoned by Shirou....

Tobias
April 23rd, 2012, 04:48 PM
whether or not the throne of heroes would be bound by a time paradox is something of an open question. notably, seeing as how she was able to make the contract at all, its heavily implied at least that the world believes that she can alter time, and then still become a CG, since she couldn't it wouldn't profit by making the contract.

Mike1984
April 23rd, 2012, 06:07 PM
I'm not talking about the Throne, I'm talking about the rest of the universe....

Tobias
April 23rd, 2012, 06:12 PM
again, if a time paradox was such a major, crippling issue, the world wouldn't have cut the deal with saber to begin with. in other words, logically, it must have at least been theoretically plausible for saber to achieve her objective and then become a CG.

Mcjon01
April 23rd, 2012, 09:38 PM
The problem is that the only way Saber can not go to Avalon is by causing a time paradox. If she erases herself from existence (as a hero, at least), then she cannot be summoned by Shirou....

What makes you so sure her wish is possible to grant?

Satehi
April 23rd, 2012, 09:47 PM
There's gotta be at least one magical item out there that can grant her wish, right?

Mcjon01
April 23rd, 2012, 09:49 PM
Does an Aoko/Zelretch team-up count as a "magical item"?

Satehi
April 23rd, 2012, 10:09 PM
Sure, why not.

Mcjon01
April 23rd, 2012, 10:16 PM
Then yes, there's one magical item that might be able to do it. Since her wish is True Magic.

Tobias
April 23rd, 2012, 11:03 PM
Does an Aoko/Zelretch team-up count as a "magical item"?



suddenly, surfing Aoko.

or possibly just maximum bro fist followed by epic, drunken shenanigans.

Ok I should stop now, this is getting to awesome.

chrnno
April 24th, 2012, 01:15 AM
Well to me LE is the perfect conclusion to the whole story in several levels.

First it grants closure to both Shirou's and Saber's relationship as both Rin's and Sakura's had and more importantly also gives them a happy ending. I understand the complaints about there not being more details but if there were more details then it might as well have been somehow done as a Fate Good Ending in the normal sequence instead.

Second... Argh I rewrote it several times and every single time I look at it and think "that's not what I meant" so I will give up in trying to describe everything and simple state that it finishes the story as a whole because it ties the whole deal together, the message I got from it was that whatever choices made(In this I mean following the different routes) as long as he follows it to the end there won't be a right or wrong choice as they all lead to happiness in different ways.

Still not happy with this but it's just that before reading LE I would have said UBW was my favourite but after I can't help but be torn between Fate and HF... Well if it wasn't for Sakura as she is HF would probably be my favourite, which is pretty odd because I like Sakura. It's just that even during her own route which is driven basically by her she still somehow feels as a background character... And no, I have no idea how that makes sense but it just is.

ragna92
April 24th, 2012, 01:20 AM
Well to me LE is the perfect conclusion to the whole story in several levels.

First it grants closure to both Shirou's and Saber's relationship as both Rin's and Sakura's had and more importantly also gives them a happy ending. I understand the complaints about there not being more details but if there were more details then it might as well have been somehow done as a Fate Good Ending in the normal sequence instead.

Second... Argh I rewrote it several times and every single time I look at it and think "that's not what I meant" so I will give up in trying to describe everything and simple state that it finishes the story as a whole because it ties the whole deal together, the message I got from it was that whatever choices made(In this I mean following the different routes) as long as he follows it to the end there won't be a right or wrong choice as they all lead to happiness in different ways.

Still not happy with this but it's just that before reading LE I would have said UBW was my favourite but after I can't help but be torn between Fate and HF... Well if it wasn't for Sakura as she is HF would probably be my favourite, which is pretty odd because I like Sakura. It's just that even during her own route which is driven basically by her she still somehow feels as a background character... And no, I have no idea how that makes sense but it just is.

I don't see how LE is anything besides a closure to the Fate route.

aldeayeah
April 24th, 2012, 02:34 AM
Then yes, there's one magical item that might be able to do it. Since her wish is True Magic.

Maybe it's beyond True Magic. Since Avalon is stated to be untouchable even to the Magics. How that works, I have no idea.

Mike1984
April 24th, 2012, 12:22 PM
What makes you so sure her wish is possible to grant?

What makes you think that I believe it is...?


First it grants closure to both Shirou's and Saber's relationship as both Rin's and Sakura's had and more importantly also gives them a happy ending.

Yes, so why is it being portrayed as an ending to the story as a whole and not to just the Fate route...?


I understand the complaints about there not being more details but if there were more details then it might as well have been somehow done as a Fate Good Ending in the normal sequence instead.

Which would have been a bad thing why, exactly...? It would fit far better if Nasu had done that.


Still not happy with this but it's just that before reading LE I would have said UBW was my favourite but after I can't help but be torn between Fate and HF... Well if it wasn't for Sakura as she is HF would probably be my favourite, which is pretty odd because I like Sakura. It's just that even during her own route which is driven basically by her she still somehow feels as a background character... And no, I have no idea how that makes sense but it just is.

Well, Sakura's situation is such that it's very difficult for her to play an active role in anything, except if she is willing to be Zouken's tool. And, since being Zouken's tool means endangering Shirou (and Rin), she resists taking that role with everything she has.


I don't see how LE is anything besides a closure to the Fate route.

Yeah, this.

It doesn't provide closure to HF or UBW at all, and nor does it even provide closure for the main characters of those two routes (Sakura and Rin, as well as perhaps Ilya, Archer and Rider) within Fate.

Keyne
April 24th, 2012, 12:35 PM
But the LE did provide the closure for Rider. 'C'

She became a star and then got supernova'd.... that is Excaliblast'd.

Mcjon01
April 24th, 2012, 02:02 PM
What makes you think that I believe it is...?

I just assumed, since you were treating Saber getting the Grail and Saber getting her wish granted as the same thing. Or at least that's what it looked like to me. :/

aldeayeah
April 24th, 2012, 03:39 PM
Well, it could be another more powerful Grail than the one in Fuyuki. Saber wouldn't settle for a Grail which couldn't grant her wish, methinks.

Seika
April 24th, 2012, 03:42 PM
Well, it could be another more powerful Grail than the one in Fuyuki. Saber wouldn't settle for a Grail which couldn't grant her wish, methinks.

World: Tough shit, bitch. Now kill for me!

chrnno
April 24th, 2012, 04:14 PM
Yes, so why is it being portrayed as an ending to the story as a whole and not to just the Fate route...?
Because it finishes Shirou's and Saber's tale when everyone else's already did? Kinda like the last goal in a football match, it is atributted greater meaning but in the end if the other didn't come before it wouldn't mean anything...


Which would have been a bad thing why, exactly...? It would fit far better if Nasu had done that.
Wow, talk about inventing meaning to other's people sentences. Where I ever even implied that it was a bad thing? All I said is that LE only works as it is because it is vague. If it wasn't then it would only have worked as one of the endings.


Well, Sakura's situation is such that it's very difficult for her to play an active role in anything, except if she is willing to be Zouken's tool. And, since being Zouken's tool means endangering Shirou (and Rin), she resists taking that role with everything she has.
Err... Not sure how this makes sense but then considering I am not sure how my own thoughts make I guess it fits. Though I wonder how you reached that conclusion as she is pretty active in HF, not by choice or decisions she would have made if she were herself but still actions. Yes I know that does not make much sense considering she feels like a background character to me but... Perhaps better put it this way, the HF route had as plot Sakura and as main characters Shirou, Rider, Rin, Zouken and Kotomine.


Yeah, this.
It doesn't provide closure to HF or UBW at all, and nor does it even provide closure for the main characters of those two routes (Sakura and Rin, as well as perhaps Ilya, Archer and Rider) within Fate.
Because it is not supposed to? It is supposed to confirm the notion that the whole story only has meaning when seen as one. The natural progression of the story gives some people the mistaken impression that Fate builds to UBW which in turn builds to HF and by making the conclusion solely tied to Fate it brings the story in a full circle.

Basically I always thought that LE was added because Nasu was tired of the discussions on the 'best' route.

mAc Chaos
April 24th, 2012, 04:21 PM
An ending doesn't have to give EVERY SINGLE CHARACTER EVER an amazing resolution to be good. Some characters are not as prominent as others and some of them are meant to fulfill certain roles, rather than have everything wrapped up. So just because LE doesn't resolve Sakura's problems, (not that we even know) so what? It's a good sendoff nonetheless.

lantzblades
April 24th, 2012, 04:32 PM
Yes, so why is it being portrayed as an ending to the story as a whole and not to just the Fate route...?

well why did nasu tack on the epilogue to HF instead of presenting it separately?


It's a good sendoff nonetheless.

except for the plot holes and contradictions.

Bloble
April 24th, 2012, 04:33 PM
I always thought of LE as an awesome ending to FSN.

First you have the Fate route, which while bittersweet is kinda bright and idealistic. Then you have the darker, more grim UBW that still retains some hope in Shirou's ideal. Then you have the GRIMDARK BLOOD DARKNESS GARM HF, showing just how stupid it can be.

And then, just as you've almost forgotten the light of how beautiful Fate was, you see it once more, showing that an answer is just an answer, and either one is okay. Hell, if I hadn't seen LE I would've thought of HF as the canon ending, but because of LE I realized that all the choices were right, and each route is merely another facet of the kaleidoscope.

...fuck I suck at writing. And trying to get my opinion across properly.

TypeWannabe
April 24th, 2012, 04:33 PM
You know guys, the people who think LE is the end to Fate route aren't saying that just because it has Saber in Avalon. In the flashback sequence before that where the PoV switches between Archer and Saber, there are things in it that happened ONLY during Fate route.

Mike1984
April 24th, 2012, 05:08 PM
Err... Not sure how this makes sense but then considering I am not sure how my own thoughts make I guess it fits. Though I wonder how you reached that conclusion as she is pretty active in HF, not by choice or decisions she would have made if she were herself but still actions. Yes I know that does not make much sense considering she feels like a background character to me but... Perhaps better put it this way, the HF route had as plot Sakura and as main characters Shirou, Rider, Rin, Zouken and Kotomine.

How is Sakura "active" in HF? She does very little other than attempt to resist Zouken as best she can.


Because it is not supposed to? It is supposed to confirm the notion that the whole story only has meaning when seen as one. The natural progression of the story gives some people the mistaken impression that Fate builds to UBW which in turn builds to HF and by making the conclusion solely tied to Fate it brings the story in a full circle.

But how the hell does an ending which explicitly follows one route and which has nothing whatsoever to do with the others confirm that the story only has meaning when seen as one entity? If anything, it confirms the opposite....


Basically I always thought that LE was added because Nasu was tired of the discussions on the 'best' route.

Which he tried to resolve by making an "ending" which is totally and utterly biased towards one route and totally ignores the other two...?


An ending doesn't have to give EVERY SINGLE CHARACTER EVER an amazing resolution to be good. Some characters are not as prominent as others and some of them are meant to fulfill certain roles, rather than have everything wrapped up. So just because LE doesn't resolve Sakura's problems, (not that we even know) so what? It's a good sendoff nonetheless.

But Last Episode isn't an ending for anything but the Fate route, and for anyone but Shirou and Saber. How can that possibly be seen as an ending for the story as a whole?


I always thought of LE as an awesome ending to FSN.

First you have the Fate route, which while bittersweet is kinda bright and idealistic. Then you have the darker, more grim UBW that still retains some hope in Shirou's ideal. Then you have the GRIMDARK BLOOD DARKNESS GARM HF, showing just how stupid it can be.

And then, just as you've almost forgotten the light of how beautiful Fate was, you see it once more, showing that an answer is just an answer, and either one is okay. Hell, if I hadn't seen LE I would've thought of HF as the canon ending, but because of LE I realized that all the choices were right, and each route is merely another facet of the kaleidoscope.

...fuck I suck at writing. And trying to get my opinion across properly.

Well, that would be a reasonable interpretation if it wasn't for the fact that the supposedly "non-grim" ending didn't involve (potentially) leaving an innocent girl who Shirou cares deeply for to be tortured to death....

I don't see how you can possibly call that "beautiful", to be honest.

celsius
April 24th, 2012, 05:14 PM
It's called leaving things open to interpretation. This is a technique that many writers often use to allow readers to form their own conclusions about certain subjects. If you want to believe Sakura was saved after Fate route, you're free to think that. If you want to believe that she wasn't, then you're also free to think that. Nasu doesn't have to spell every little detail out to you.

Frankly, I don't understand why people are getting so worked up over what's essentially a bonus ending.

mAc Chaos
April 24th, 2012, 05:16 PM
But Last Episode isn't an ending for anything but the Fate route, and for anyone but Shirou and Saber. How can that possibly be seen as an ending for the story as a whole?
I didn't say it was. But Shirou is the main character. The ending is going to be first and foremost concerned about him, in any case.

Mike1984
April 24th, 2012, 05:21 PM
It's called leaving things open to interpretation. This is a technique that many writers often use to allow readers to form their own conclusions about certain subjects. If you want to believe Sakura was saved after Fate route, you're free to think that. If you want to believe that she wasn't, then you're also free to think that. Nasu doesn't have to spell every little detail out to you.

No, but I can't see how it can really be seen as particularly "bright" or "idealistic" when one of the main characters has potentially been tortured to death....


Frankly, I don't understand why people are getting so worked up over what's essentially a bonus ending.

Because I don't see it as much of a "bonus" or reward, especially given that you get it immediately after completing HF....


I didn't say it was. But Shirou is the main character. The ending is going to be first and foremost concerned about him, in any case.

But, even then, it's only an ending for one version of Shirou, and it's entirely Saber-centric. It's an ending to Fate, not to the entire game.

mAc Chaos
April 24th, 2012, 05:30 PM
What. Why are you arguing when I agree? I never said it wasn't the Fate ending. I'm just not all buttmad about the content of it.

celsius
April 24th, 2012, 05:31 PM
No, but I can't see how it can really be seen as particularly "bright" or "idealistic" when one of the main characters has potentially been tortured to death....

Why are you so cynical about this? I thought you liked Sakura. Why can't you just believe that she was saved? Seeing as how Last Episode is apparently about Shirou achieving his ideals, I don't see why you can't think a little more optimistically about it either. Seeing as how Nasu proooobably isn't gonna say anything about it, there's no reason I can't choose to think that she was saved and lives happily with her sister or whatever.


Because I don't see it as much of a "bonus" or reward, especially given that you get it immediately after completing HF....

It's a bonus ending because it didn't exist in the original version. The original Fate/stay night was created without Last Episode in mind. Nasu could have shoehorned it in after Fate True, but it might have messed with the flow. You know how in some updated versions of video games, a last scenario or epilogue or whatever is added after the ending? This is pretty much the same concept. Even if the extra scenario only has anything to do with one of the heroines, the fact that it's an extra doesn't change.


But, even then, it's only an ending for one version of Shirou, and it's entirely Saber-centric. It's an ending to Fate, not to the entire game.

Eh. It's just Nasu's thing. The Shiki in Eclipse after you beat all the routes in Tsukihime is apparently from after Arcueid True, after all. I'm sure that if Nasu ever creates a new visual novel that isn't Tsukihime or Fate (Pffft...), he'll probably do the same thing.

RacingeR
April 24th, 2012, 05:34 PM
The point is that it is an ending for the entire game because it gives closure to the one route that got no real closure? Continuation of the Dream was beautiful, but by itself it got no real closure. Yes, LE is Fate centric, but it is just showing one final answer, after UBW's and HF's, one answer whose first part was given on Fate.

Bloble
April 24th, 2012, 05:38 PM
No, but I can't see how it can really be seen as particularly "bright" or "idealistic" when one of the main characters has potentially been tortured to death....
If you want to say it that way, then I can't see how any of HF's endings can really be seen as happy when one of the main characters has had her soul and body corrupted by all the evil in the world, and is (potentially) doomed to an eternal hell of being forced to slaughter millions of people in service to the world itself.

EDIT: And I called the ideal beautiful, not the ending, although I thought that was beautiful as well.

Mike1984
April 24th, 2012, 06:01 PM
Why are you so cynical about this? I thought you liked Sakura. Why can't you just believe that she was saved? Seeing as how Last Episode is apparently about Shirou achieving his ideals, I don't see why you can't think a little more optimistically about it either. Seeing as how Nasu proooobably isn't gonna say anything about it, there's no reason I can't choose to think that she was saved and lives happily with her sister or whatever.

Yeah, sure, it's quite possible that he could have saved her, and I'd definitely rather believe that to be the case, but nevertheless, for it to be a truly idealistic ending it should demonstrate that she is saved.


Eh. It's just Nasu's thing. The Shiki in Eclipse after you beat all the routes in Tsukihime is apparently from after Arcueid True, after all. I'm sure that if Nasu ever creates a new visual novel that isn't Tsukihime or Fate (Pffft...), he'll probably do the same thing.

From what I know of the Tsukihime Eclipse, though, it's a lot more generic. Even though the version of Shiki there is Shiki from Arcueid True, the basic idea of it applies to all routes.


The point is that it is an ending for the entire game because it gives closure to the one route that got no real closure? Continuation of the Dream was beautiful, but by itself it got no real closure. Yes, LE is Fate centric, but it is just showing one final answer, after UBW's and HF's, one answer whose first part was given on Fate.

I don't see how Fate has any less "closure" than UBW, though. In both cases, Shirou's future development is not entirely clear, and there are plenty of other issues which could crop up.


If you want to say it that way, then I can't see how any of HF's endings can really be seen as happy when one of the main characters has had her soul and body corrupted by all the evil in the world, and is (potentially) doomed to an eternal hell of being forced to slaughter millions of people in service to the world itself.

HF True is xlearly still a happy ending though, overall, just not for Saber. And I never said that Last Episode wasn't happy, just that it wasn't "idealistic" or "bright"....


EDIT: And I called the ideal beautiful, not the ending, although I thought that was beautiful as well.

Well, fair enough, I can't really argue with that....

eddyak
April 24th, 2012, 06:03 PM
Yeah, sure, it's quite possible that he could have saved her, and I'd definitely rather believe that to be the case, but nevertheless, for it to be a truly idealistic ending it should demonstrate that she is saved.
"A hero can't save everyone."

Mike1984
April 24th, 2012, 06:06 PM
"A hero can't save everyone."

That's not Shirou's ideal, though. Shirou's ideal is to "save everyone". Of course, he can't really do that, but if he can't even manage to save one of his closest friends, then I don't see how he can possibly consider himself to have upheld that ideal.

celsius
April 24th, 2012, 06:10 PM
Yeah, sure, it's quite possible that he could have saved her, and I'd definitely rather believe that to be the case, but nevertheless, for it to be a truly idealistic ending it should demonstrate that she is saved.

Ehh... I dunno about that. I think it's better the way it was left. In terms of drama and impact, a passing mention of Sakura being saved would have been completely overshadowed by, well, the entirety of the Heaven's Feel route. That's also another reason why Last Episode being unlocked after all the routes have been beaten wasn't a mistake. It creates a greater impact, which is important for story-telling.

In the end, that's basically what it comes down to. Mentioning Sakura would have messed with the flow of the extremely Shirou/Saber-centric Last Episode. Putting Last Episode anywhere other than after all three routes' completion would have also lessened the impact. Last Episode's placement and content was more or less strategic writing and planning on Nasu's part.

I think it's fine not to demonstrate some things in the story. It seems to me that you want confirmation of Sakura's salvation due to your affection for her, but I think you should try and think about it a bit more objectively. The reader has already witnessed Sakura's salvation in Heaven's Feel. A passing mention of her being saved in Last Episode would have undermined the events that had occurred in that route. It's better in that regard to leave it up to the interpretations of the reader rather than say what happens outright. Of course, I'm talking from a story-telling perspective here. And as a reader, I'd rather just assume in my mind that Sakura was saved rather than read the text saying "Oh, and by the way, Sakura was saved too." in the midst of all the Saber-focus.

Leary
April 24th, 2012, 06:14 PM
http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/8982/19321141.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/207/19321141.jpg/)
Seriously though, why does it matter if some people think its the ending to just Fate or the game overall?

What celsius said in his last post (edit: last, last post) is probably exactly why you get LE after completing the other routes. Personally, I didn't think Fate was in dire need of closure and because of that LE would have been seriously out of place as a direct follow up. It was years of having just that one bittersweet ending for Fate route that made Nasu penning an epilogue which panders to Saber fans such a cool gesture. Its also nice to think that the author was wanting a happy end for that couple as well this whole time.

You know, like Shiki and Arc will have when Tsukihime 2 comes ou-

I3uster
April 24th, 2012, 06:16 PM
But I liked the closure of Continuation of a Dream...

celsius
April 24th, 2012, 06:18 PM
But I liked the closure of Continuation of a Dream...

Well if it bothers you that much, just pretend Last Episode was a dream that Shirou and Saber shared. Shirou seeing Saber in his last moments before his death and Saber dreaming of Shirou while in Avalon.

Heck, that entire scenario is vague enough to allow such a line of thinking.

lantzblades
April 24th, 2012, 06:18 PM
have undermined the events that had occurred in that route.

unless you have proof this is a lie.

Mike1984
April 24th, 2012, 06:18 PM
Ehh... I dunno about that. I think it's better the way it was left. In terms of drama and impact, a passing mention of Sakura being saved would have been completely overshadowed by, well, the entirety of the Heaven's Feel route. That's also another reason why Last Episode being unlocked after all the routes have been beaten wasn't a mistake. It creates a greater impact, which is important for story-telling.

In the end, that's basically what it comes down to. Mentioning Sakura would have messed with the flow of the extremely Shirou/Saber-centric Last Episode. Putting Last Episode anywhere other than after all three routes' completion would have also lessened the impact. Last Episode's placement and content was more or less strategic writing and planning on Nasu's part.

But how does it make sense to have an extremely Shirou/Saber-centric ending be unlocked immediately after playing through Sakura's route, where we find out that she's been suffering horribly and that said suffering has been entirely ignored in the first two routes?

celsius
April 24th, 2012, 06:22 PM
unless you have proof this is a lie.
Proof? Consider the following: Shirou sacrifices his ideals and goes through many trials, losing many things in order to save Sakura. It was an extremely grueling road for him, but he managed to persevere until the very end. Are you saying that a passing mention in Last Episode going "Oh, and Shirou saved Sakura too" wouldn't have undermined that? Personally, I'd find it rather distasteful.


But how does it make sense to have an extremely Shirou/Saber-centric ending be unlocked immediately after playing through Sakura's route, where we find out that she's been suffering horribly and that said suffering has been entirely ignored in the first two routes?

Again, "open to interpretation". You seem to have a very cynical mindset, but there's absolutely no reason why you can't believe that Sakura was saved sometime after Fate. Last Episode is all about fulfilling impossible wishes. Compared to what Shirou manages to do (reach Avalon, meet Seibaaa), saving Sakura would be considerably less impossible.

You can continue thinking such unhappy thoughts if you want, but I'll continue to believe that Sakura was saved after Fate. After all, that's also an ideal, and Last Episode is all about the fulfillment of an ideal, right?

Mike1984
April 24th, 2012, 06:30 PM
Again, "open to interpretation". You seem to have a very cynical mindset, but there's absolutely no reason why you can't believe that Sakura was saved sometime after Fate. Last Order is all about fulfilling impossible wishes. Compared to what Shirou manages to do (reach Avalon, meet Seibaaa), saving Sakura would be considerably less impossible.

You can continue thinking such unhappy thoughts if you want, but I'll continue to believe that Sakura was saved after Fate. After all, that's also an ideal, and Last Episode is all about the fulfillment of an ideal, right?

Yeah, sure, it's quite possible (perhaps even likely) that Shirou would save Sakura prior to Last Episode, but nevertheless it is not known for certain, and nor is she (or Rin, for that matter), even mentioned in the ending.

lantzblades
April 24th, 2012, 06:33 PM
Consider the following:

your statement spits on the core of shirou's character in order to justify your argument that sakura shouldn't be mentioned in LE. what's to consider?


Are you saying that a passing mention in Last Episode going "Oh, and Shirou saved Sakura too" wouldn't have undermined that?

he became a full blown hero supposedly so yes it would not have undermined hf or ubw shirou and their choices.

celsius
April 24th, 2012, 06:35 PM
Yeah, sure, it's quite possible (perhaps even likely) that Shirou would save Sakura prior to Last Episode, but nevertheless it is not known for certain, and nor is she (or Rin, for that matter), even mentioned in the ending.

Well, yeah. It would have messed with the story-flow. Here's the basic layout of Last Episode:

"SABER SHIROU conflict SABER SHIROU SABER SHIROU ordeals SABER SHIROU SABER ideal SABER SHIROU SABER miracle SABER"

It's pretty much all Shirou and Saber. Flow and pacing are also important for story-telling. Throwing Rin or Sakura into that mix would have screwed with the pacing, particularly since it wasn't even told from Shirou's point of view. Actually, it was more Saber's POV than it was Shirou's if you think about it. It's not like Saber really interacted with Sakura that much in Fate. Heck, even her interactions with Rin were minimal. It's only natural that the only relevant characters would be Saber and Shirou.

And now "Saber" doesn't look like a word to me.


your statement spits on the core of shirou's character in order to justify your argument that sakura shouldn't be mentioned in LE. what's to consider?

he became a full blown hero supposedly so yes it would not have undermined hf or ubw shirou and their choices.

I'm not spitting on anything.

I was talking from the point of view of the narrative. If you're gonna go into how Sakura was saved, a passing mention in a very Saber-centric recap epilogue isn't the way to do it. That would undermine Heaven's Feel. I'm not saying that Shirou saving Sakura is wrong, but rather, the way it's portrayed shouldn't be just a passing mention in a Saber-epilogue.

Last Episode didn't go into HOW Shirou fulfilled his ideal. It gave no examples whatsoever. It didn't portray what happened to Shirou and what he did after Fate. I mean, it was mostly just a recap of the Fate route. Shirou's life after Fate is meant to be open to the interpretation of the reader. How he achieved his ideal, how he reached Avalon, it's clear that Nasu has absolutely no intention of going into this at all. We're supposed to imagine what happened to him in our minds. You shouldn't expect the narrative to hand you all your answers on a silver platter.

Keyne
April 24th, 2012, 06:49 PM
Heck, that entire scenario is vague enough to allow such a line of thinking.
Not true. Saber confirmed his presence in Avalon by simply embracing him. This dream you speak of was before that very moment. The event is real.

Bloble
April 24th, 2012, 06:51 PM
I think LE was put at the end because it ensured that before we read it we'd have to see all the other points of view first. It has a greater impact now that we've seen all the negatives of Shirou's ideal, and not just the positives. It's like looking at a bright light after having been plunged into darkness. Like a breath of fresh air after holding your breath for as long as you possibly could.

Not to say that the other routes were bad, but if LE had been set right after Fate I think the impact of it wouldn't have been as much, and we wouldn't have gained such a greater appreciation for it as opposed to when we read it with full knowledge of all the routes and possible choices.

ragna92
April 24th, 2012, 06:52 PM
Saber didn't get a happy ending in her route, but a bittersweet one which I preferred much more then the LE one. Anyways she was the only heroine that didn't get a happy ending. That's the purpose of LE. It's for the Fate route. It has nothing to do with UBW and HF. The way I see it, LE is an alternate ending to the Fate route. That is all. If you don't like it then just ignore it.

Keyne
April 24th, 2012, 06:54 PM
Saber didn't get a happy ending in her route, but a bittersweet one which I preferred much more then the LE one. Anyways she was the only heroine that didn't get a happy ending. That's the purpose of LE. It's for the Fate route. It has nothing to do with UBW and HF. The way I see it, LE is an alternate ending to the Fate route. That is all. If you don't like it then just ignore it.
Then the way you see it isn't correct. It does not branch away from the main story, but is a direct continuation.

ragna92
April 24th, 2012, 06:57 PM
Then the way you see it isn't correct. It does not branch away from the main story, but is a direct continuation.

I know it's a direct continuation of the Fate route. Maybe calling it an alternate ending to the Fate route wasn't the right thing to say. But the point I'm trying to make here is that LE is solely for the Fate route. It has nothing to do with the game as a whole.

lantzblades
April 24th, 2012, 06:59 PM
Last Episode didn't go into HOW Shirou fulfilled his ideal.

his being there is a major implication that he in fact did.


That would undermine Heaven's Feel.

conjecture at best.


I was talking from the point of view of the narrative.

clearly you're reading a different novel then.

I3uster
April 24th, 2012, 07:02 PM
But he can't fulfill his ideal. It's impossible without alterations, though IIRC LE hints at something like that.

Mike1984
April 24th, 2012, 07:03 PM
Then the way you see it isn't correct. It does not branch away from the main story, but is a direct continuation.

It doesn't make sense, though, for it to be the only possible follow-on from the Fate route. The universe he's in branched into (at least) three different paths inside a few days, to claim that it can then not branch again for the rest of his life is just absurd.

Keyne
April 24th, 2012, 07:05 PM
It doesn't make sense, though, for it to be the only possible follow-on from the Fate route. The universe he's in branched into (at least) three different paths inside a few days, to claim that it can then not branch again for the rest of his life is just absurd.
That's what he chose. I will not enter a "what if" debate with you, Mike.

lantzblades
April 24th, 2012, 07:06 PM
But he can't fulfill his ideal. It's impossible without alterations

godless fatalistic garbage if impressed literally.

I3uster
April 24th, 2012, 07:07 PM
godless fatalistic garbage if impressed literally.
No, seriously, it's impossible by definition. It is something to strive for while acknowledging the faults. Faults he did acknowledge in LE, or he would have turned into Archer.

celsius
April 24th, 2012, 07:08 PM
conjecture at best.
Conjecture...? I mean, it's fine if you want to disagree with me but a person's opinion isn't exactly "conjecture". Especially considering I do genuinely believe everything I had said up to this point.


clearly you're reading a different novel then.

I think you're misunderstanding something here. By "narrative", I'm talking about, you know, the narrative. The format of the novel, the words, the thing that isn't a character and thus shouldn't have any particular personality traits or biases. What I'm saying is, as a set of words used to tell the story, mentioning Sakura in passing would have messed with the narrative flow, the way the words and sentences and thoughts all connect, the pacing.

Basically, "So Saber and Shirou did this and this and they went their separate ways and---oh by the way, Shirou also saved Sakura. Anyway, back to Saber..." See? This is not good pacing. This is not a good narrative.

lantzblades
April 24th, 2012, 07:16 PM
it's impossible by definition. It is something to strive for while acknowledging the faults.

the ideal isn't flawed or faulty though. sociological context may force a person to adapt but the ideal is not flawed because of that.


would have messed with the narrative flow

in your opinion.

and i do believe you're over simplifying what including her would mean.


"So Sakura and Shirou did this and this and they went their separate ways and---oh by the way, Shirou also saved Sakura. Anyway, back to Saber...

is the way a third grader would write. if you strive to make a point do not over simplify, it makes you come off as lazy

I3uster
April 24th, 2012, 07:18 PM
It is not flawed as an ideal (because then it's just that, an ideal), but as a way of life. A compromise must be made, or you end up on the slippery slope to a Kiritsugu wannabe.

eddyak
April 24th, 2012, 07:20 PM
the ideal isn't flawed or faulty though. sociological context may force a person to adapt but the ideal is not flawed because of that.
The ideal is fundamentally flawed because for someone to be saved, someone else has to not be saved, and someone has to be in trouble.

Kuradora
April 24th, 2012, 07:30 PM
The ideal is fundamentally flawed because for someone to be saved, someone else has to not be saved, and someone has to be in trouble.
Ergo, there exists the "Rejoice Emiya Shirou." Scene

Tobias
April 24th, 2012, 07:34 PM
so whats your answer to, even ignoring LE for a moment, shirou continuing to pursue that ideal without regret at the end of fate being considered as equally valid as the ends of UBW and HF?

celsius
April 24th, 2012, 07:36 PM
in your opinion.

and i do believe you're over simplifying what including her would mean.

is the way a third grader would write. if you strive to make a point do not over simplify, it makes you come off as lazy

You're right, and I apologize for that.

What I think should have said was that, well... To put in frankly, Sakura is largely irrelevant to Saber. Last Episode isn't just about Shirou, but Saber as well. That's probably why it only touched on things that are relevant to both. Saber is relevant to Shirou and Shirou is relevant to Saber, but Sakura is only relevant to Shirou. Saber herself had very little interaction with her.

Let's say that Last Episode were an essay. In an essay, you have a main idea and everything else is built around that idea. In Last Episode, that main idea is "Saber and Shirou". Sakura may be important to Shirou, but has little to do with Saber. You can build a paragraph detailing how Shirou saved Sakura, but it would ultimately detract from the overall theme of "Saber and Shirou". Of course, a story isn't an essay and allows for distractions like that, but, and this is what I think, Last Episode is simply too Saber-focused (both on her character and her POV) for Sakura to really have a place in it. Perhaps if Saber had built up some form of meaningful relationship with Sakura, it would work, but as their interactions stand, I don't think it would have added to Last Episode at all.

mAc Chaos
April 24th, 2012, 07:36 PM
The ideal is fundamentally flawed because for someone to be saved, someone else has to not be saved, and someone has to be in trouble.
It's more of a tension than a flaw. Look at it this way. If there weren't conflicts like that, life wouldn't exist. The difference between good and evil, good and bad, is what makes life what it is.

lantzblades
April 24th, 2012, 07:42 PM
A compromise must be made, or you end up on the slippery slope to a Kiritsugu wannabe.

and therein lies my anger at the translation "superhero"

Kuradora
April 24th, 2012, 10:33 PM
and therein lies my anger at the translation "superhero"

Why? Is it the 'cannot save everyone' thing?

Satehi
April 24th, 2012, 10:37 PM
It's because Lantz has a certain impression of what a superhero should be, having read western comics.

lantzblades
April 24th, 2012, 10:47 PM
Why?

the dilemma shirou goes on about having makes no sense if he wants to be a superhero. there's no conflict for a superhero if they fail to save someone. They simply get up and continue to save others, they mourn yes, they learn but they aren't all or nothing. Archer cannot arise from a shirou who wishes to become a superhero. however as i said it's a faulty translation because shirou wants to be a hero of justice.


It's because Lantz has a certain impression of what a superhero should be

given that the term originates from western comics it's more then an impression

I3uster
April 25th, 2012, 02:54 AM
so whats your answer to, even ignoring LE for a moment, shirou continuing to pursue that ideal without regret at the end of fate being considered as equally valid as the ends of UBW and HF?
That he eventually encounters a situation where his ideal will be challenged, and that he deals with it in a sensible way and not "now it's all or nothing kill 1 to save 2", probably due to the influence of Saber and Rin. Y'know, how the Dojo said it.

Seika
April 25th, 2012, 03:06 AM
the dilemma shirou goes on about having makes no sense if he wants to be a superhero. there's no conflict for a superhero if they fail to save someone. They simply get up and continue to save others, they mourn yes, they learn but they aren't all or nothing. Archer cannot arise from a shirou who wishes to become a superhero. however as i said it's a faulty translation because shirou wants to be a hero of justice.

That's your impression, great. I'm fairly sure I could find other 'superheroes' - in western comics or otherwise - who have reacted differently, whose ideals have changed because they've failed to save someone, or who do treat 'saving' as the be-all-and-end-all.


given that the term originates from western comics it's more then an impression

Merriam-Webster and etymologyonline give the first instance of 'superhero' as 1917. Seems to me that your idea of western comics and the superhero wasn't around then. Moreover, it 'originates' (like many words) from someone deciding to slam together two words in order to create a new one - one of them first being Latin and the other Greek. And so at its origin, I rather doubt it meant anything more than 'a great hero'. All this baggage you're piling on it is yours. There's nothing inherent in the word which demands it.

lantzblades
April 25th, 2012, 03:15 AM
I'm fairly sure I could find other 'superheroes' - in western comics or otherwise - who have reacted differently, whose ideals have changed because they've failed to save someone, or who do treat 'saving' as the be-all-and-end-all.


being narrow when answering a statement does not make you right miss nit pick.


erriam-Webster and etymologyonline give

a know it all techical answer i could care less about.


All this baggage you're piling on it is yours.

go insult some one else please.

Seika
April 25th, 2012, 03:24 AM
being narrow when answering a statement does not make you right miss nit pick.
No need to go name-calling, thank you. And to over-generalise is as bad as to be too narrow.



a know it all techical answer i could care less about.
I've given you the facts, plain and simple. That's all I can say.



go insult some one else please.
I see no insults in my post. Your post, on the other hand, is really unwarrantedly aggressive. I'm not attacking you personally, I'm pointing out that your view doesn't take certain information into account. Please recognise that and back down a bit.

lantzblades
April 25th, 2012, 03:33 AM
And to over-generalise is as bad as to be too narrow.

if you want in depth conversation make a thread because this one isn't about the morality and nature of heroes it's about the fate route.


've given you the facts. There's nothing I can do if they don't match what you think.

superheroes as they are currently recognised begin in the 40's the statements i've made cover them not some archaic term which means similar.


I see no insults in my post.

you called my view point and belief baggage. that's an insult.


I'm pointing out that your view doesn't take certain information into account.

it does, it's simply not the place to discuss the topic in depth

aldeayeah
April 25th, 2012, 03:48 AM
lantzblades, check this out:

http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%AD%A3%E7%BE%A9%E3%81%AE%E5%91%B3%E6%96%B9

Very rough translation of the first bulleted sentence: Seigi no mikata is a word that designates a fictional hero, a superhero [link to "Superhero" article].

The fact that LOLNASU gives it his personal twist doesn't make it a bad translation.

Arashi_Leonhart
April 25th, 2012, 03:52 AM
It's the Japanese version of a superhero, yeah. It literally means "ally of justice" and carries a few different connotations.

Seika
April 25th, 2012, 03:54 AM
if you want in depth conversation make a thread because this one isn't about the morality and nature of heroes it's about the fate route.
And what is the Fate route - no, what is the entire game about, if not about the nature of morality and the hero?



superheroes as they are currently recognised begin in the 40's the statements i've made cover them not some archaic term which means similar.

'Archaic'? Just twenty-five years before your idea of the superhero comes up is not 'archaic'. And I really think that you shouldn't call it 'currently recognised'. Both dictionaries (I refer you again to Merriam-Webster) and a real-life example (me) appear to disagree with your definition that a superhero must be a comic book hero and that they must have the attribute of not faltering in their determination to carry out heroics. I honestly find that second part a very weak area of your argument.



you called my view point and belief baggage. that's an insult.
Baggage is a neutral term: what you carry along with you. You have the baggage of comic books - that influences your perception of the word 'superhero'. If I were to be thrown back in time, I would have difficult dealing with the morality system of, say, Elizabethan England. That's a part of my baggage, the baggage of someone born in the 20th century and living in the 21st. It's neither necessarily bad nor good. It just is, and it needs to be noted in an argument. Particularly so if it seems to be affecting our viewpoints to a great degree. I put to you that your baggage is influencing you in such a way. Particularly if you dismiss facts presented to you, as you have. Calling facts 'a know it all techical answer i could care less about' is not an argument.




it does, it's simply not the place to discuss the topic in depth
It's relevant to the topic at hand - a conversation about Last Episode. Given that Last Episode is so much about the ideal of a hero, I don't think this is an inappropriate place for the discussion.

lantzblades
April 25th, 2012, 04:11 AM
'Archaic'? Just twenty-five years before your idea of the superhero comes up is not 'archaic'.

the current year is 2012 figuring that superhero as in my idea begins in 1945 that's 67 years. I'd say that's archaic.


. Both dictionaries (I refer you again to Merriam-Webster) and a real-life example (me) appear to disagree with your definition

well fun for you then. it doesn't mean you're right just that you disagree.


I don't think this is an inappropriate place for the discussion.

i do. end of discussion.


I honestly find that second part a very weak area of your argument.


i'm not arguing anything. there's no point to arguing on bl, no one listens. i stated in shorthand an answer to a question. i was not interested in debate.


Baggage is a neutral term

to YOU, in the future recognize that i do not take it that way.

SeiKeo
April 25th, 2012, 04:12 AM
to YOU in the future recognize that i do not take it that way.

Hey, you, you future reader, listen to me!

lantzblades
April 25th, 2012, 04:17 AM
Hey, you, you future reader, listen to me!

yes leo i missed a coma. very funny

SeiKeo
April 25th, 2012, 04:19 AM
yes leo i missed a coma. very funny

I don't think not visiting family members when they're in a coma is really much of a laughing matter, really.

aldeayeah
April 25th, 2012, 04:25 AM
the current year is 2012 figuring that superhero as in my idea begins in 1945 that's 67 years. I'd say that's archaic.
That's not how archaisms work. A term that still has common use with the same meaning can't be an archaism no matter how old it is.

Else most of the English language would be archaic, since it has been around for centuries.