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I3uster
April 20th, 2012, 03:32 PM
CLARIFICATION

A text-only banner: What it says
An image-and-text-banner: Something like we have now, but with TM characters. Probably rotating
A new BL-tan: Something like we have now, but with a new character designed by a volunteering fanartist
Old BL-tan but different picture: Something like we have now with a better drawn BL-tan
Keep the current one: Duh.

Kotonoha
April 20th, 2012, 03:32 PM
oh for the love of

I3uster
April 20th, 2012, 03:33 PM
The old one's gone. I don't want more useless debates and bitching, the poll was created to prevent that.

Spinach
April 20th, 2012, 03:34 PM
BUT I LIKED THE CONVERSATION I WAS HAVING WITH LEO

Lycodrake
April 20th, 2012, 03:34 PM
"New BL-tan" meaning a completely new mascot from scratch or what?

Kotonoha
April 20th, 2012, 03:34 PM
"New BL-tan" meaning a completely new mascot from scratch or what?
Uh oh better make a new thread

Aku
April 20th, 2012, 03:36 PM
This... Isn't what I was trying to make happen though D:

For the record, this is the post I was going to post:

I was the one saying you should embrace it and make it your own. A redesign sums that up well.


But no, god no, don't make another thread.

I'd just like to put forward that if the combined votes of the two BL-tan options outweight the remaining options then that implies the majority wants some form of BL-tan, and we might want to take that into account

I was hoping to put forward that the votes for a BL-tan shouldn't be spread out over multiple options, but rather that after it is decided wether to have a BL-tan or not, it be decided if it should be the same one or a redesigned one.
Now we have even more BL-tan alternatives, oderp.

Lycodrake
April 20th, 2012, 03:37 PM
Neco Shinji wouldn't even count as a "new BL-tan". It would just be Neco Shinji. ^^;;;

Aku
April 20th, 2012, 03:38 PM
Neco Shinji wouldn't even count as a "new BL-tan". It would just be Neco Shinji. ^^;;;
Indeed.

Kotonoha
April 20th, 2012, 03:38 PM
It represents BL (BL) and is cute (-tan)

Thus it is BL-tan.

deviatesfish
April 20th, 2012, 03:39 PM
More of this... and wait, don't they all fall under "text and image banner"?

New BL-tan is undefined.

Black Sword
April 20th, 2012, 03:39 PM
now I'm uncertain. A redesigned BL-tan would keep the same basic look but have a more, ah, refined, appearance, right?

Lycodrake
April 20th, 2012, 03:39 PM
It represents BL (BL) and is cute (-tan)

Thus it is BL-tan.
No it doesn't. At all.

Aku
April 20th, 2012, 03:39 PM
now I'm uncertain. A redesigned BL-tan would keep the same basic look but have a more, ah, refined, appearance, right?
Yeah.

Edit: Clarification though, it seems some want to argue that new BL-tan won't be a redesign, but will be an entirely different character called BL-tan.
If you want BL-tan but more refined then Old BL-tan but new picture is probably it.

I3uster
April 20th, 2012, 03:43 PM
now I'm uncertain. A redesigned BL-tan would keep the same basic look but have a more, ah, refined, appearance, right?
There is no "redesign" option, it's the old one drawn better, or a new one that may not look anything like the old one.

Dark Pulse
April 20th, 2012, 03:48 PM
The problem with this poll is that it narrowly tries to shoehorn stuff into a few categories.

I'll abstain from voting since admittedly what I planned isn't on there, but also because even if we did do new banners, I would want BL-tan to be one of them. Ergo, none of them really fits what my choice is.

I3uster
April 20th, 2012, 03:48 PM
So, the OP is changed for people that didn't get it the first time even though I thought it was perfectly clear.

Aku
April 20th, 2012, 03:49 PM
There is no "redesign" option, it's the old one drawn better, or a new one that may not look anything like the old one.
So then if we want one that's the same BL-tan, but redesigned, we vote for old one drawn better? That's pretty unclear by itself.

If anything, if you make an entirely new mascot-character then I'd argue it shouldn't even be called BL-tan, since BL-tan would be the old mascot, but that doesn't really need to change the poll alternative names as long as it's made clear to the people voting.

I actually liked the idea of a new design based on the old one though... But hey, as long as we get more BL-tan I suppose I'm good.

I3uster
April 20th, 2012, 03:53 PM
The problem with this poll is that it narrowly tries to shoehorn stuff into a few categories.

I'll abstain from voting since admittedly what I planned isn't on there, but also because even if we did do new banners, I would want BL-tan to be one of them. Ergo, none of them really fits what my choice is.
The narrowly shoehorned categories are taken DIRECTLY from the thread.

Kotonoha
April 20th, 2012, 04:00 PM
Hey i3uster could you clarify in the OP that "image and text" is also going to be fanart? It's like you're saying only the "new mascot" will be original content.

Anyway I should probably clarify my stance:

I would originally have been sort of okay with the idea of "updating the old mascot", but its designer showed up here earlier for the sole purpose of trolling and insulting the forum as a whole. So I'm really uncomfortable with the idea of having that character represent the forum.

Making a new mascot is slightly better, but I'm not sure we'd be able to agree on one, and I doubt we'd do much with such a character anyway (short of making some sort of Mary Sue TM OC).

Text-only would be okay but a little bland.

So I prefer the image-and-text option.

Aku
April 20th, 2012, 04:21 PM
I'm pretty sure Sae was a little upset rather than coming in to troll. Definitely didn't come in for the sole purpose of trolling and insulting.

I think Sae just likes having a history, same way everyone else who wants BL-tan probably does.

Kotonoha
April 20th, 2012, 04:27 PM
I'm pretty sure Sae was a little upset rather than coming in to troll. Definitely didn't come in for the sole purpose of trolling and insulting.

I think Sae just likes having a history, same way everyone else who wants BL-tan probably does.
Let's look at the post again.


Well, everyone's got their opinion. Even if their opinion is total shit, like Kotonoha here.

Say, you guys want more people to visit? Yeah, keep up that attitude. It's just like /b/ here. No, seriously. You guys have done a wonderful job with making this entire forum a complete cesspool. It's all Mike1984 hate and Little Miss Estrogen on 24/7 Menstruation Mode here. What are you, 15? Abortion jokes?

Any case. Getting back to the topic (because I know you guys'll get derailed after a few posts talkin' about your waifus), you can make your own banners, your own mascot. Whatever. Keep BL-tan or no, update her, put Shinji up there so everyone knows this is an entire forum dedicated to boy's love and pandering to rotten little fujoshis. You're free to wipe away what little anchor it has left to its 10 year history, because Mike did the rest by having proboards eradicate our archives and nuke a lot of threads, so why not finish off the job, right?

What a charming individual, this is definitely what non-trolls sound like when they are "a little upset". I'm sure he just wanted to preserve BL's wonderful history and not just shit everywhere because we suggested his character design wasn't a masterpiece of loli uguu. I sure do want to draw him some fanart of his ORIGINAL BL CHARACTER DO NOT STEAL.

Kratosirving
April 20th, 2012, 04:36 PM
Sure his response wasn't nice, but you can't say Sae is the one to blame when you threw the first punch.


Hey.

I'm Sae, I created the mascot. I joined up around....well, a long time ago. Back when EvoSpace was still around, back when we didn't have separate forums and it was just one giant forum page with lots of threads.

I heard someone was talkin' shit about my baby.


Yeah she's ugly so we're aborting her.

Aku
April 20th, 2012, 04:36 PM
I'll just say that as far as I can tell, half of that post is about how throwing out BL-tan is letting go of whatever connection BL has left to its history.

I don't think the situation is quite that extreme, but either way, half of that post was dedicated to saying that.
That is all I really have to say on the subject.

(Incidentally, that wasn't the first post he made in the thread. That was the post he made in response to your not entirely friendly responses to his first post. His first post, ie. what he came on here to say, was quite non-hostile. Saying anything else is twisting of facts.)

But that's really all I have to say on the matter so feel free to get in the last word if you so desire, I really oughta go get on top of my drawing now.


Edit: And Kratosirving brought up precisely what I was referring to. With quotes even! Good on you, Kratosirving.

Kotonoha
April 20th, 2012, 04:38 PM
Sure his response wasn't nice, but you can't say Sae is the one to blame when you threw the first punch.
So I make what he himself acknowledged was a joke, and his response is to shit on the entire forum.

Clearly he is the victim here. That poor, sensitive soul.


I'll just say that as far as I can tell, half of that post is about how throwing out BL-tan is letting go of whatever connection BL has left to its history.
While also blaming Mike for the old forum getting deleted, despite Mike not saying ANYTHING to him. And calling us "rotten little fujoshis" (because ewwww there's women on the forum). And saying BL's users have made the forum into a cesspool.

Seriously, don't defend this guy, he's just trolling. None of that is the result of "hurt feelings" because I poked fun at him for calling the banner his baby.

Kratosirving
April 20th, 2012, 04:56 PM
I never suggested defending him at all. I believe that Sae is at fault for everything you've said here Koto, but I'm not letting you off the hook for being just as responsible as Sae is for starting this latest shitstorm. You don't deserve any form of support either.

TypeWannabe
April 20th, 2012, 04:57 PM
Spinach's words on the first page sounds exactly like something I would say, caps and all.

Kotonoha
April 20th, 2012, 04:58 PM
I never suggested defending him at all. I believe that Sae is at fault for everything you've said here Koto, but I'm not letting you off the hook for being just as responsible as Sae is for starting this latest shitstorm. You don't deserve any form of support either.

Who's supporting me to begin with? Nobody's saying "poor Koto, she cannot be held responsible for what she says because her feelings were hurt".

Whereas Aku IS defending Sae with pretty much that exact reasoning.

Spinach
April 20th, 2012, 05:27 PM
Spinach's words on the first page sounds exactly like something I would say, caps and all.

I strive to imitate your posting style, Master TW.

As a random aside, allow me to sum up BL today.

http://i.imgur.com/MPWPg.png

RacingeR
April 20th, 2012, 05:54 PM
Now, THAT should be the new banner.

Erlkonig
April 20th, 2012, 06:25 PM
No, don't take BL-tan away ;_;

She's been here for far too long to be just thrown and discarded away like that. It just feels... weird.

EDIT: Yeah I know, u no from old BL, but I've still been here a considerable amount of time.

Sherrinford
April 20th, 2012, 06:30 PM
As a random aside, allow me to sum up BL today.

http://i.imgur.com/MPWPg.png

I LOL'd.

It's brilliant.

Mormarth
April 20th, 2012, 06:49 PM
Votin for text only

No more fun ever. We must all enjoy a nice wholesome splash of letters across the top.

IN FACT

NO BANNERS. FOX ONLY. FINAL DESTINATION.

Mereo Flere
April 20th, 2012, 07:21 PM
No, don't take BL-tan away ;_;

She's been here for far too long to be just thrown and discarded away like that. It just feels... weird.

EDIT: Yeah I know, u no from old BL, but I've still been here a considerable amount of time.

Honestly, while I wouldn't mind an updated BL-Tan (Kaiza made quite a decent banner in the other thread), I'd prefer a new BL-tan over it if we didn't do other kinds of Image Banners to begin with.

Part of me just can't help but think the message it sends is "Welcome to BL! By the way, this was made by someone who hates the forum!"

Seems rather silly to me.

I do have a good argument for a BL-Tan 2.0, anyway. She'd effectively be a little sister to the original. I already have a nickname for her: Nimouto.

You guys don't have anything against little sisters, do you?

TypeWannabe
April 20th, 2012, 08:04 PM
But new members wouldn't even know her older sister to begin with! The story will always be incomplete for them!

Mereo Flere
April 20th, 2012, 08:20 PM
But new members wouldn't even know her older sister to begin with! The story will always be incomplete for them!

Even new members would know that little sisters have older siblings, though.

TypeWannabe
April 20th, 2012, 08:23 PM
How would they even know she was a younger sister!

Mereo Flere
April 20th, 2012, 08:24 PM
How would they even know she was a younger sister!

Nimouto: Imouto's right in the nickname.

RadiantBeam
April 20th, 2012, 08:29 PM
Just update the old BL-Tan with a newer, more clear image

Erlkonig
April 20th, 2012, 09:05 PM
Part of me just can't help but think the message it sends is "Welcome to BL! By the way, this was made by someone who hates the forum!"


Eh, that's up to whoever sees the image to interpretate as he likes. For example, even if the one who made it 'hated the forum' or such (Haven't been in the thread), you could just think of BL-tan as a non-related, completely innocent personification of the forum.

(Really though, BL-tan hardly seems like a personification now. If it were one, she should be stained by purple marks, be placed on top of a pyramid divided in levels and black text surrounding her with spoilers. The moonrunes are fine, however.)

In-N-Out Double-Double & Animal Fries
April 20th, 2012, 11:19 PM
Get Tusia/Nasho/other people to collab on a few pics and pick one?

Techlet
April 20th, 2012, 11:34 PM
I'll just say that as far as I can tell, half of that post is about how throwing out BL-tan is letting go of whatever connection BL has left to its history.

"History" left first.

Ivan The Mouse
April 21st, 2012, 09:08 AM
I'm opting for a text-only banner. In that way, no one is going to use ad hominem, ad absurdum, ad misercordiam and most of all, reductio ad ridiculum over whose character we should put on the new banner.

You might call me out for doing argumentum ad temperantiam but if people are going to like this, then an extreme measure is necessary.

I3uster
April 21st, 2012, 09:09 AM
The poll pretty much made everything cool down in the thread anyway. So, yay!

Mcjon01
April 21st, 2012, 10:15 AM
Where's the option to vote for something like a "Car Enthusiast Forum" banner, so that if anybody glances over your shoulder while you're browsing it doesn't immediately give away how super nerdy you are. Also, there should be an option to change everybody's avatar into manly pictures of guns.

Ivan The Mouse
April 21st, 2012, 11:22 AM
Where's the option to vote for something like a "Car Enthusiast Forum" banner, so that if anybody glances over your shoulder while you're browsing it doesn't immediately give away how super nerdy you are.

You'll still be called out as nerd depending on the type of people who like to glance at your computer screen. Why not something normal, like "Electronica Lovers Forum"? You'll surely be dismissed as a party-goer, then.


Also, there should be an option to change everybody's avatar into manly pictures of guns.

Oho, you'll attract the suspicions of gun-control advocates and concerned parents in that way. Why not pictures of flowers instead?

Mcjon01
April 21st, 2012, 12:25 PM
Because I'm from the South, so big engines and guns is a pretty sure fire way to communicate I AM A MAN AND I LIKE MANLY THINGS.

I guess it wouldn't hurt if some of the guns were wearing football helmets, though.

Ivan The Mouse
April 21st, 2012, 12:40 PM
Because I'm from the South, so big engines and guns is a pretty sure fire way to communicate I AM A MAN AND I LIKE MANLY THINGS.

And I'm from the Southeast. Car enthusiasm here means you are either a jeepney driver, an auto mechanic or a yuppie bachelor. Guns here mean you want to go into the military or police life, or you are a 90s guy. Or a potential criminal.


I guess it wouldn't hurt if some of the guns were wearing football helmets, though.

Why not put water sprinklers on them instead? You know, eco-friendly concerns.

Mcjon01
April 21st, 2012, 12:48 PM
"eco-friendly"

Well, geez, that's worse than the moemoe animu loli girls, as far as image goes. :V

Ivan The Mouse
April 21st, 2012, 12:53 PM
"eco-friendly"

Well, geez, that's worse than the moemoe animu loli girls, as far as image goes. :V

But you know it attracts a lot of potential market. And not everyone likes moemoe animu loli girls. At least we could present ourselves as an environmentally-conscious forum. You know, you have to please the target demand.

Mcjon01
April 21st, 2012, 12:54 PM
I'm willing to compromise, as long as the environment can wear a football helmet.

Ivan The Mouse
April 21st, 2012, 12:57 PM
I'm willing to compromise, as long as the environment can wear a football helmet.

It is wearing one. It is called "Ozone Layer".

Mcjon01
April 21st, 2012, 12:58 PM
I thought we got rid of that thing ages ago.

Ivan The Mouse
April 21st, 2012, 01:03 PM
I thought we got rid of that thing ages ago.

Well, we obviously can't duct tape the thing but we practically can't throw it away. You know, this isn't a case of "if you can't duct it, then fuck it."

Techlet
April 21st, 2012, 01:48 PM
If you don't duct it, it's going to make a lot of noise.

Ivan The Mouse
April 22nd, 2012, 01:13 AM
If you don't duct it, it's going to make a lot of noise.

Maybe that's the reason Recyclopaths are making a lot of noise. Because we can't duct tape the thing.

Trevelyan
April 22nd, 2012, 07:12 AM
So. While I don't care about BL-tan's fate, I don't want text only. By process of elimination, I must select Image and Text.

Mike1984
April 22nd, 2012, 07:22 AM
I was hoping to put forward that the votes for a BL-tan shouldn't be spread out over multiple options, but rather that after it is decided wether to have a BL-tan or not, it be decided if it should be the same one or a redesigned one.
Now we have even more BL-tan alternatives, oderp.

Yeah, the problem with this poll is that the winner depends on how many options there are. Someone who wants to keep BL-tan could set it up to have three options for getting rid of her and only one for keeping her, and vice-versa.


I would originally have been sort of okay with the idea of "updating the old mascot", but its designer showed up here earlier for the sole purpose of trolling and insulting the forum as a whole. So I'm really uncomfortable with the idea of having that character represent the forum.

And, honestly, I'm "uncomfortable" about having the forum represented by 55 pictures of Saber and Rin, so....

Erlkonig
April 22nd, 2012, 07:52 AM
This poll clearly shows BL is divided on the issue. I don't think it's possible to satisfy everyone with one change or the other.

Mereo Flere
April 22nd, 2012, 07:56 AM
And, honestly, I'm "uncomfortable" about having the forum represented by 55 pictures of Saber and Rin, so....

I'm using a Sakura banner right now, whileSaber and Rin don't even have banners submitted yet.

At all.

To begin with, most of the ideas for rotating banners have had suggestions that probably wouldn't allow for 5 pictures of them, let alone 55; I doubt 55 banners would even be submitted. Also, one of those ideas came from DP himself, so you already know that the mods aren't considering letting such an extreme scenario to occur.

By worrying about something that isn't very likely to happen, you're doing something much worse than not voting for Sakura - you're not even giving her a chance.

I3uster
April 22nd, 2012, 08:27 AM
This poll clearly shows BL is divided on the issue. I don't think it's possible to satisfy everyone with one change or the other.
It shows a pretty clear consensus in one regard though: nobody wants the old banner.

terraablaze
April 22nd, 2012, 09:06 AM
How did this argument come about? Where did the old banner even come from (I've always been confused about this)?

Kotonoha
April 22nd, 2012, 09:07 AM
This poll clearly shows BL is divided on the issue. I don't think it's possible to satisfy everyone with one change or the other.
In other words "my chosen option is currently losing." :P

Kratosirving
April 22nd, 2012, 12:01 PM
Nah, what it means is that a new BL-tan should be in one of the banners. With the current percentage of the votes, about 75% want either new banners with image & text, or a new one with BL-tan. Therefore, why not just do both?

Satehi
April 22nd, 2012, 12:04 PM
Nah, what this poll really means is that we should just have text. You see, all of the poll options all support a banner with text, and therefore the only way we can please 100% of the crowd is through making it a text only banner. That settles all disputes.

Mcjon01
April 22nd, 2012, 12:24 PM
Clearly, the people are trying to communicate their desire for a banner composed entirely of ascii art, but have no idea how with such limited poll options.

terraablaze
April 22nd, 2012, 01:37 PM
How about a banner that is nothing but an advertisement for J-List? Then maybe we really can become 4 chan.

Kotonoha
April 22nd, 2012, 01:41 PM
For instance, penises.

Ivan The Mouse
April 22nd, 2012, 03:11 PM
For instance, penises.

Or onaholes.

Erlkonig
April 22nd, 2012, 04:21 PM
It shows a pretty clear consensus in one regard though: nobody wants the old banner.

Well of course, "rework the old one to make it better" isn't going to get discarded over just keeping the old one.

Aku
April 22nd, 2012, 08:03 PM
The optimal poll setup would've been to have two alternatives ("keep BL-tan or use something else?"), then followed by a new poll to determine to either use new/old BL-tan, or to either use text-only or text-and-images depending on the result of the first poll.
But then last time I suggested a change in poll-setup the result was a new poll with even more vote-splitting, so it's probably better if you don't act on what I just said.

Techlet
April 22nd, 2012, 08:33 PM
We need a poll to vote on whether or not we should have a new poll that supplements the existing poll.

TypeWannabe
April 22nd, 2012, 09:33 PM
Banner Maker sama kun chan, the city needs you now!

Mike1984
April 23rd, 2012, 07:34 PM
I'm using a Sakura banner right now, whileSaber and Rin don't even have banners submitted yet.

At all.

Yeah, but the contest hasn't started yet. Plus, the Sakura banner you're using is hardly one I'd particularly support (if it's the one I saw originally, anyway)....


To begin with, most of the ideas for rotating banners have had suggestions that probably wouldn't allow for 5 pictures of them, let alone 55; I doubt 55 banners would even be submitted. Also, one of those ideas came from DP himself, so you already know that the mods aren't considering letting such an extreme scenario to occur.

Well, obviously 55 was an over-exaggeration, but the basic argument is valid, especially given that DP's voting system is heavily biased towards the most popular characters (even if Sakura herself may well fit into that group).


By worrying about something that isn't very likely to happen, you're doing something much worse than not voting for Sakura - you're not even giving her a chance.

Not really, because I'm quite happy to not have Sakura displayed at the top of my screen one time in 10 (if that) if it means not having to have characters I may not want to be displayed there the rest of the time. Particularly given the tendancy for people on this forum to troll.

Plus, I dislike the idea of a rotating banner, and of having Nasuverse characters on it. I'd much rather just have one banner which represents the site, rather than 25 different banners of which I will probably dislike about 20.


Nah, what it means is that a new BL-tan should be in one of the banners. With the current percentage of the votes, about 75% want either new banners with image & text, or a new one with BL-tan. Therefore, why not just do both?

Because my vote was not "I want to keep BL-tan" as much as it was "I don't want rotating banners with Nasuverse characters", and that is quite possibly true for many of the other people who voted for that option.

RacingeR
April 23rd, 2012, 08:28 PM
(Translation: Trolling = Having different tastes/opinons.)

Keep being classy :/.

Kyte
April 23rd, 2012, 08:34 PM
You know, your opinion doesn't really matter. You're one person and you run counter to everyone else. It's basic democracy. The fact the mods listen to you is basically a courtesy of their part.

Hell, I'd say the fact the ones in charge listen to you so much is unfair in itself, given you're only one person that happens to shout very loudly and yet you still end up getting your way.

SeiKeo
April 23rd, 2012, 08:38 PM
inb4rights

RacingeR
April 23rd, 2012, 08:40 PM
inb4rights

We all knew it would degenerate into such a shitstorm sooner or later.

I still intend to call it as I see it, though -_-

Mike1984
April 23rd, 2012, 09:11 PM
You know, your opinion doesn't really matter. You're one person and you run counter to everyone else. It's basic democracy. The fact the mods listen to you is basically a courtesy of their part.

Since when is the forum a "democracy", though? The forum exists for the benefit of all the members, not just the majority.


Hell, I'd say the fact the ones in charge listen to you so much is unfair in itself, given you're only one person that happens to shout very loudly and yet you still end up getting your way.

No, they listen to me (in so far as they do at all) because what I'm saying actually makes sense. Just because a troll is popular that doesn't make them any less of a troll.

Satehi
April 23rd, 2012, 09:12 PM
But Mike, what if you can't please all the members?

The Sylentnight
April 23rd, 2012, 09:21 PM
*See's argument*
http://memeorama.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/dis-gon-b-gud.gif

And on my opinion on the banner, I think a text only would be best to stop people from getting angry that one of their favorite characters didn't get one.

Lianru
April 23rd, 2012, 09:37 PM
I like that GIF. Tis nice.

RacingeR
April 23rd, 2012, 09:38 PM
Since when is the forum a "democracy", though? The forum exists for the benefit of all the members, not just the majority.



No, they listen to me (in so far as they do at all) because what I'm saying actually makes sense. Just because a troll is popular that doesn't make them any less of a troll.

I. You...

Wh-

....

But.

Graaahhhhhhhh

EDIT: I need to take a fucking break or I will explode and end tempbanned or some shit like that. Jumping out of thread.

Kyte
April 23rd, 2012, 09:39 PM
Since when is the forum a "democracy", though? The forum exists for the benefit of all the members, not just the majority.
Serving the entirety of the membership is an impossibility. The benefit-to-effort curve scales logarithmically. You'd need infinite effort to cater for all of them.
As such, all sane systems try to benefit the majority rather than the entirety. 80/20 rule, man.


No, they listen to me (in so far as they do at all) because what I'm saying actually makes sense. Just because a troll is popular that doesn't make them any less of a troll.
Ahahahahaha.

Lianru
April 23rd, 2012, 09:44 PM
I wonder if it's possible to close a poll thread but leave the poll open.

Lianru
April 23rd, 2012, 09:50 PM
nice one, spinach XD

SeiKeo
April 23rd, 2012, 09:52 PM
You bastard.

Spinach
April 23rd, 2012, 09:52 PM
Well, whatevs. Deal wit' it, Leo.

SeiKeo
April 23rd, 2012, 09:54 PM
No u.

Spinach
April 23rd, 2012, 09:55 PM
Also, I want to report my deleted post for trolling, but I can't. Suffering.

Mcjon01
April 23rd, 2012, 09:57 PM
Serving the entirety of the membership is an impossibility. The benefit-to-effort curve scales logarithmically. You'd need infinite effort to cater for all of them.
As such, all sane systems try to benefit the majority rather than the entirety. 80/20 rule, man.

Forum exists for everybody, not just the majority. Impossible to please everybody. However, quite possible to piss everybody off. Only ethical course of action clear.

Lianru
April 23rd, 2012, 10:00 PM
Leo, why did you do that, now it looks like I have a double post ._.

SeiKeo
April 23rd, 2012, 10:01 PM
Spammer.

Satehi
April 23rd, 2012, 10:02 PM
SPAMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMERSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS

Erlkonig
April 23rd, 2012, 10:13 PM
Spammer.

Spammer.
Spammer.

Spammer.
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Spammer.





Spammer.

Spammer.
Spammer.

Spammer.
Spammer.

Spammer.





Spammer.

Spammer.
Spammer.

Spammer.
Spammer.

Spammer.




​.

Kyte
April 23rd, 2012, 10:15 PM
Forum exists for everybody, not just the majority. Impossible to please everybody. However, quite possible to piss everybody off. Only ethical course of action clear.

Not sure if Salarian or Rorschach.

Also people: Stop spamming, srsly.

lethum
April 23rd, 2012, 10:44 PM
I say that we reach 「」 and just have no banner. Since that is what the option I voted for means, right?

I3uster
April 24th, 2012, 02:51 AM
Poll seems to be decided. Now the ball is in the admin court.

Mike1984
April 24th, 2012, 04:43 AM
Serving the entirety of the membership is an impossibility. The benefit-to-effort curve scales logarithmically. You'd need infinite effort to cater for all of them.
As such, all sane systems try to benefit the majority rather than the entirety. 80/20 rule, man.

Sorry, that's just bollocks. No system should ever aim to benefit the majority at the expense of the minority. It should aim to benefit everyone equally. That's the only way to be fair.

Mereo Flere
April 24th, 2012, 05:02 AM
Yeah...

Maybe in an ideal world. However, all we can do is try to get as close to that ideal world as possible.

For example - I'm trying to get closer to an ideal world by using a script to replace people's avatars with Neco Shinji. It's kind of amusing, how much better it makes someone's post.

http://i.imgur.com/YHOHZ.png

Mike1984
April 24th, 2012, 05:17 AM
Yeah...

Maybe in an ideal world. However, all we can do is try to get as close to that ideal world as possible.

Yeah, but that's not what DP actually does. He goes with the majority opinion even when the majority isn't that bothered whilst the minority cares a lot, and ignores the opinions of the minority entirely, even when he could easily listen to them without pissing off everyone else.

Techlet
April 24th, 2012, 05:24 AM
Yeah...

Maybe in an ideal world. However, all we can do is try to get as close to that ideal world as possible.

For example - I'm trying to get closer to an ideal world by using a script to replace people's avatars with Neco Shinji. It's kind of amusing, how much better it makes someone's post.

http://i.imgur.com/YHOHZ.png

This is amazing.

Tusia
April 24th, 2012, 05:49 AM
I'm still kinda new there, so I don't know the story of BL-tan so I don't mind new mascot, It's something users can relate to, and I won't hide that I have idea tied with it - but didn't noticed that pool earlier ... and worked with that idea ^^' ... and then noticed pool ...... so I've waited for the pool to end, and as I see results You guys don't want new mascot... so I don't know what to do now xD

Besides TM have so many characters and series that it'll be hard to pick one banner with image
"One person will want Sakura with Rider, the other half naked Sion or Mushroom, and I want Alphard :3c ~ "



It'll be hard to make everyone happy~ ;_;

SeiKeo
April 24th, 2012, 05:53 AM
Yes, Alphard, do that!

Lianru
April 24th, 2012, 06:44 AM
It'll be hard to make everyone happy~ ;_;
Always true.

Techlet
April 24th, 2012, 06:55 AM
Naked Mushroom Sion. ;__;

Lianru
April 24th, 2012, 06:57 AM
As image-and-text won is winning, why don't you draw something abstract as opposed to a character, though?

Hyarion
April 24th, 2012, 02:51 PM
Makes sense.

Actually, you know, I wouldn't mind dropping the kanji entirely and just having an abstract design with "Beast's Lair" superimposed somewhere. Haven't seen that suggested in a while.

Lianru
April 24th, 2012, 07:26 PM
I like the kanji, they're pretty~

Dark Pulse
April 24th, 2012, 09:43 PM
Yeah, but that's not what DP actually does. He goes with the majority opinion even when the majority isn't that bothered whilst the minority cares a lot, and ignores the opinions of the minority entirely, even when he could easily listen to them without pissing off everyone else.I hardly am ignoring the minority, but the simple fact is that the minority loses. Not everyone gets what they want in life, after all, otherwise I'd have millions of dollars, a private island, and a cadre of attractive women to take care of every single need I may have.

As has been said earlier, pleasing everyone is impossible, so I don't even try. The key is to please as many people as you can. It means some people won't like it, but well, I can't control that. I've depended on the forum for that ever-important feedback, and even though I didn't run this poll, the majority of users picked two categories:


A group who wants a new banner, period, with images and text, without particular indication as to what that contains (for now).
A group who wants either a new drawing of the current BL-tan.

Thus, I would boil down what the board wants to this:


A brand-new banner (or series of banners) is definitely welcomed, and a BL-tan is fine, too.

The problem with what you're arguing, Mike, is that to please "everybody" I would have to please the people who don't want the banner to change (impossible because the majority will dislike it), remove the banner entirely (same) or keep the current one (same). There is absolutely no point in having a forum controlled by the forumites (in some senses) without giving them a voice, whereupon the choices are either to give them a voice (where you will complain because you do not agree with them) or to revoke their ability to have a say in what we do (where you will complain that you do not have a voice). Furthermore, the fact that people have a voice and a say in how their board is run, means that - inevitably - someone is going to vote on the losing side of the issue.

See the problem here?

Absolute equality is, in two words and an interjected expletive, abso-fucking-lutely impossible. As I said, I did the math and to ensure absolute fairness, we'd need to make nearly 400 banners, use each character once, and even then you would still occasionally see characters you either didn't know, didn't like, or god have you - and you'd complain about their presence.

So there's a majority, and the majority is what wins. Consideration is given to the minority, but simply put, utopiaeic equalism is about as much of a dream as perfect peace on Earth, the end of all disease, the end of world hunger, and so on. Therefore, it's best to serve the majority. The minority is given consideration, but simply put, if I tried to please everyone, I would effectively be unable to do my job, because I'm constantly trying to make everyone happy. There has to be limits as to how far I go to please people before it becomes counterproductive. That's what you're failing to grasp, instead perceiving it as "tyranny by majority" and me completely ignoring the minority.

I've never taken this position to try to be Mr. Popular, though from various murmurs I've heard, the vast majority of people are fine with how I do things. There were some decisions that I set, especially early on, that I backed down on later by the very thing you dislike - a populist vote. I set something, the board disagreed, I put it up to a vote, they changed it, I swallowed my pride and I changed my course. Even if I don't personally like it, the board felt that that is what they wanted, and as administrator, it is my job to heed the whims of the users, so long as they're sensible (so no asking for global admin powers, everyone). From what I recall, you sure didn't disagree with the methods used when it was things like poll choice limits (although you sure did complain when most people agreed there should be a general set limit).

I've always valued criticism of my actual duties (they're worth more than praise to me) and so as a result I definitely keep an ear open for people who disagree. At the same time, they have to be willing to compromise, too. What are the odds you're going to look at the banner every time, for example? After a few weeks, probably next to zip. There's also the fact that, simply put, you'd be able to block that banner very easily. As I said, I'm even considering a static banner skin (counterproductive as that is because it means that if I did any changes to the main skin I would also need to do them in the new skin) just in an attempt to appease a few dissenters.

I'd say, realistically, I'm being as fair as I can be - some would argue I'm probably being more fair than I should be. How much further do I have to go?

Kotonoha
April 24th, 2012, 09:59 PM
Yeah...

Maybe in an ideal world. However, all we can do is try to get as close to that ideal world as possible.

For example - I'm trying to get closer to an ideal world by using a script to replace people's avatars with Neco Shinji. It's kind of amusing, how much better it makes someone's post.

http://i.imgur.com/YHOHZ.png
That post just got five times more smug!

RacingeR
April 24th, 2012, 10:50 PM
Somehow I imagine Neko-Shinji saying bollocks and I giggle like a schoolgirl.

Oh god the Shinji gland is having an effect! D:

Lianru
April 25th, 2012, 06:58 AM
This was Koto's plan all along?

Mike1984
April 25th, 2012, 07:58 AM
A group who wants a new banner, period, with images and text, without particular indication as to what that contains (for now).
A group who wants either a new drawing of the current BL-tan.

Thus, I would boil down what the board wants to this:


A brand-new banner (or series of banners) is definitely welcomed, and a BL-tan is fine, too.


I think that a new banner is indeed welcomed, but I don't think you can really make much of a judgement on the content of such.


So there's a majority, and the majority is what wins. Consideration is given to the minority, but simply put, utopiaeic equalism is about as much of a dream as perfect peace on Earth, the end of all disease, the end of world hunger, and so on. Therefore, it's best to serve the majority. The minority is given consideration, but simply put, if I tried to please everyone, I would effectively be unable to do my job, because I'm constantly trying to make everyone happy. There has to be limits as to how far I go to please people before it becomes counterproductive. That's what you're failing to grasp, instead perceiving it as "tyranny by majority" and me completely ignoring the minority.

But you are completely ignoring me, and everyone else who has complaints. Don't try to pretend otherwise. You act to serve the majority (by your own admission) whilst trampling over the minority, and you seemingly don't give a flying fuck.


From what I recall, you sure didn't disagree with the methods used when it was things like poll choice limits (although you sure did complain when most people agreed there should be a general set limit).

Actually, yes, I did object, because I don't see any reason to have a limit at all, barring technical limitations. However, I didn't really have a problem with the final result (because I honestly couldn't imagine any scenario where it will get hit, although, amusingly, your poll for banners could end up violating it...), so I didn't see any point in pressing my complaints further.


I'd say, realistically, I'm being as fair as I can be - some would argue I'm probably being more fair than I should be. How much further do I have to go?

How the bloody hell are you being remotely "fair"? Your entire system is set up to be biased towards the majority with no regard whatsoever for the minority, even down to the way you're determining how many banners each character is allowed and the voting system itself.

You've set it up to basically guarentee that Rin, Saber etc. will get as many banners as they're allowed (which will probably be quite a lot) and that less popular characters (which may or may not include Sakura) will get none. Further, the way you're counting banners with multiple characters (particularly when coupled with the 25% restriction) is also biased against minor characters, because images of them with a more major character are likely to be more popular and, thus, images of them alone will likely get washed out (whereas the same will not happen to the major characters because they will be allowed more banners in total). Additionally, your rules for producing images makes it very hard for those of us who can't draw, because we're extremely limited in our choice in pictures to use. Finally, your voting system is designed in such a way that people really can't pick only the banners they like for a particular character (especially if there are a lot of them), because the vote for that character might get split and they'll end up with nothing.

Trevelyan
April 25th, 2012, 08:10 AM
Everyone gets a vote. The poll option with the highest number of votes is the one which is selected. That's eminently fair and reasonable. Sometimes the options aren's ideal, but you find one that works for you better than the rest, and vote for it.

What some people want isn't fairness - they want to be pandered to. To do so would be the unfair thing.

Techlet
April 25th, 2012, 08:19 AM
How's this for a realistic Sakura banner?

http://i.imgur.com/Wymfn.jpg

Trevelyan
April 25th, 2012, 08:30 AM
You're being unfair to people who don't know how spoiler tags work. Tyrant. Fuck you. :P

Kyte
April 25th, 2012, 01:02 PM
Additionally, your rules for producing images makes it very hard for those of us who can't draw, because we're extremely limited in our choice in pictures to use.
Once again, because you SURE LOVE IGNORING US. IT'S ONLY NOT COOL WHEN THEY IGNORE YOU ISN'T IT:

There are plenty of pics on the internet, including the full rip of FSN sprites. Paint.NET, GIMP and Photoshop are all readily available. Making a banner using preexisting pics is not hard, it just takes some copy paste, Googling some tutorials and a decent sense of artistic layout. If you really want original art you can commission some, which has the benefit of being both tailored to your preferences and provided in hi-res for your personal use, whether it's a banner, poster, whatever. Really, the only reason you cannot make a banner is laziness.

You keep complaining but you never work for the solution.
You are all that is wrong with BL, the internet and the world in general.

Mike1984
April 25th, 2012, 01:09 PM
Once again, because you SURE LOVE IGNORING US. IT'S ONLY NOT COOL WHEN THEY IGNORE YOU ISN'T IT:

There are plenty of pics on the internet, including the full rip of FSN sprites. Paint.NET, GIMP and Photoshop are all readily available. Making a banner using preexisting pics is not hard, it just takes some copy paste, Googling some tutorials and a decent sense of artistic layout. If you really want original art you can commission some, which has the benefit of being both tailored to your preferences and provided in hi-res for your personal use, whether it's a banner, poster, whatever. Really, the only reason you cannot make a banner is laziness.

You keep complaining but you never work for the solution.
You are all that is wrong with BL, the internet and the world in general.

DP has explicitly excluded anything other than official art and self-produced (or commissioned) art (although I'm not entirely sure why that is somehow considered less prone to complaints than random art from Pixiv...). That is a huge limitation on what we can use, and makes producing a decent picture very difficult, especially with multiple characters.

Kyte
April 25th, 2012, 01:19 PM
DP has explicitly excluded anything other than official art and self-produced (or commissioned) art (although I'm not entirely sure why that is somehow considered less prone to complaints than random art from Pixiv...). That is a huge limitation on what we can use, and makes producing a decent picture very difficult, especially with multiple characters.

I mentioned sprites, didn't I? Tech made a good banner with nothing more than a sprite.
Also: Whine whine whine you haven't even tried. There's plenty of good official art, and given it's a banner there's plenty of leeway to crop and collage from multiple sources. Your argument still fails.

(Commissioned art is legally owned by the commissioner AFAIK, so you don't run into copyright issues as you would with random pixiv art)

Mike1984
April 25th, 2012, 01:22 PM
I mentioned sprites, didn't I? Tech made a good banner with nothing more than a sprite.
Also: Whine whine whine you haven't even tried. There's plenty of good official art, and given it's a banner there's plenty of leeway to crop and collage from multiple sources. Your argument still fails.

It is highly limiting, though, especially since I don't know what art is "official". Plus, my artistic skills are rather limited, so producing something good given what I have to work with will not be at all easy.

Also, you did say that creating a banner requires a "decent senst of artistic layout", which I entirely lack, so....


(Commissioned art is legally owned by the commissioner AFAIK, so you don't run into copyright issues as you would with random pixiv art)

Yeah, I know, which is why I included commissioned art in the list of things that were allowed....

I3uster
April 25th, 2012, 01:26 PM
Since we're on the topic of mods:

DP! DP! Results are in, now do something with them!

Mike1984
April 25th, 2012, 01:31 PM
The problem is that, whilst the vote pretty clearly supports doing something, there's no clear consensus as to what that "something" should be....

Rockxas
April 25th, 2012, 01:33 PM
It is highly limiting, though, especially since I don't know what art is "official".
My guess is that "official" art refers to images made by Type-Moon, like the pictures in artbooks or sprites.

I3uster
April 25th, 2012, 01:37 PM
The problem is that, whilst the vote pretty clearly supports doing something, there's no clear consensus as to what that "something" should be....
It's pretty clear in the OP, no?

eddyak
April 25th, 2012, 01:48 PM
How about just a few banner options, and an update whenever someone comes up with something good, or whenever a mod can be arsed to add a new picture?

User selects whatever banner they want, like with the Black Beast of Chaos/regular average BORING forum layout selection thing, anyone who hasn't selected one gets a random one from the pool each time they visit/refresh.

Mike1984
April 25th, 2012, 01:48 PM
It's pretty clear in the OP, no?

Yeah, but none of the choices got an absolute majority, and so we cannot say with any certainty that any one of the options is preferred.


How about just a few banner options, and an update whenever someone comes up with something good, or whenever a mod can be arsed to add a new picture?

User selects whatever banner they want, like with the Black Beast of Chaos/regular average BORING forum layout selection thing, anyone who hasn't selected one gets a random one from the pool each time they visit/refresh.

I would support something like this, but DP seems to think that it's "unfair" because it won't include $generic_high_school_student_54 who appears for one second in the background of one scene and, thus, that the only way to be "fair" is to ignore the less popular characters entirely and have loads of Saber and Rin banners....

Neir
April 25th, 2012, 01:50 PM
Irrelevant. Winning choice wins.

Mike1984
April 25th, 2012, 01:51 PM
That's stupid, though, particularly since I3uster made the poll, and is biased towards one of the options. I could easily have made a poll with different options and obtained a different result as a consequence.

Kotonoha
April 25th, 2012, 01:55 PM
He's biased towards the option that didn't win though...

Kyte
April 25th, 2012, 01:56 PM
Official art is anything with copyright Type-Moon.


Yeah, but none of the choices got an absolute majority, and so we cannot say with any certainty that any one of the options is preferred.
Absolute Majority is not required. We just need Simple Majority which (surprise!) has been met.

RacingeR
April 25th, 2012, 01:56 PM
Well Mike, you lost. This is how life works, and yes, life is unfair.

Deal with it.

Mike1984
April 25th, 2012, 01:59 PM
He's biased towards the option that didn't win though...

Well, regardless, it's ludicrous to look at this poll and decide that the majority of people want a rotating banner with images. I would imagine that most of those who wanted a new BL-tan would prefer the old one with a different picture to rotating banners (and the converse is almost certainly true), and those who voted to keep the current banner would almost certainly prefer the old BL-tan with a new picture.


Well Mike, you lost. This is how life works, and yes, life is unfair.

Deal with it.

I didn't, though. There was no majority in favour of your option, and claiming victory just because the poll was biased towards you (by having 3 options that involve a new BL-tan and only one involving rotating images) is extremely unfair. Further, DP did not make this poll, so I see no reason whatsoever why he should be bound by it, given that it did not even reach a firm conclusion.

Kyte
April 25th, 2012, 02:00 PM
Oh give up dude. You ain't winning either way. You're just placing obstacles because you know you already lost.

Neir
April 25th, 2012, 02:01 PM
Go make your own forum, with your own banner! And blackjack, and hookers!

Kratosirving
April 25th, 2012, 02:02 PM
With a little under 85% having voted for new text/image banners or a new image w/BL-tan in some way or fashion, I'd say taking both of them together makes a fairly dominant majority. Therefore, a logical solution could be to make a few new text/image banners and have at least one of them with BL-tan.

Mike1984
April 25th, 2012, 02:03 PM
Oh give up dude. You ain't winning either way. You're just placing obstacles because you know you already lost.

No, I did not "lose". You are just claiming victory because you consider your side to have won, despite there being no official definition of "victory" and the poll being biased towards your side.


With a little under 85% having voted for new text/image banners or a new image w/BL-tan in some way or fashion, I'd say taking both of them together makes a fairly dominant majority. Therefore, a logical solution could be to make a few new text/image banners and have at least one of them with BL-tan.

No, because I voted for the option I did precisely because I did not want rotating banners or canon characters. I don't particularly care about BL-tan per-se, I just think that it's better than DP's horribly biased and unfair canon character poll. Your assumption is entirely false.

Further, if that was the correct solution, then why wasn't that option in the poll alongside one with the characters? And why weren't the other possible permutations of "image and text banner" included, given that the BL-tan options are all just subsets of that anyway (the current banner certainly counts as an "image and text banner")?

The "image and text" option won because it was the broadest, not because it was necessarily the most popular. The poll should have included all the different permutations of that, such as one banner or rotating banners, and canon characters, none or a mixture. Hell, rotation was not even explicitly required in the choice.

RacingeR
April 25th, 2012, 02:04 PM
First thing first, I did not vote on this poll nor I intend to. I couldn't care less about what happens with the banner.

Second, you keep assuming things and have no proof of your assumptions. Present proof, then we'll discuss this "unfairness" that you speak of. But at this point, you are just whining about the option you wanted failing. Which you do constantly and all the time in both fics and RPs and whatever.

So I don't see why the mods should have to even care about your unbased complaints anyway.

I3uster
April 25th, 2012, 02:04 PM
How is this poll biased? I don't get it. If anything the former poll was biased because the two BL-tan options were one.

In any case, we have a result, and I expect DP to act on that, after all it can also include old BL-tan in a better-drawn form if she gets voted.
Not having an absolute majority for such a trivial issue is stupid. I just want it changed so that the site banner actually looks pretty for once, and I won't let you get in the way of that just because you like throwing a fit, Mike.

Because honestly, the only thing you always did in the threads discussing the banners was BLOCKING and not doing shit, and that's why I created the poll, to show that people actually want a new banner and so that you can't just suffocate all discussion about it by screaming the loudest. Because it's better to have a tyranny of the majority than the tyranny of one person with a loud organ.

Bloble
April 25th, 2012, 02:05 PM
I find it interesting that the votes are a pretty much perfect 50/50 split between having BL-tan in some shape or form (new BL-tan, new pic, same pic) and not having her (text and image, just text).

Combined, both have 42 people voting for each.

Of course, in a simple vote, text and image wins, with new pic of BL-tan being second with quite a bit of difference between the two.

I3uster
April 25th, 2012, 02:06 PM
Old BL-tan can enter the banner rotation.

Kotonoha
April 25th, 2012, 02:07 PM
No, I did not "lose". You are just claiming victory because you consider your side to have won, despite there being no official definition of "victory"
...


...IT'S A POLL!

Erlkonig
April 25th, 2012, 02:15 PM
Old BL-tan can enter the banner rotation.

I can agree with this.

EDIT: Would still be good if they made her prettier though =D

Satehi
April 25th, 2012, 02:17 PM
I firmly disagree with the idea of banner rotation.

As well as the idea of adding Old BL-tan into the rotation, unless they prettified her or something.

I3uster
April 25th, 2012, 02:20 PM
If she gets into the rotation she has to be voted in there first, and I doubt that .jpeg-compression-tan will get a majority.

Mike1984
April 25th, 2012, 02:22 PM
First thing first, I did not vote on this poll nor I intend to. I couldn't care less about what happens with the banner.

Second, you keep assuming things and have no proof of your assumptions. Present proof, then we'll discuss this "unfairness" that you speak of. But at this point, you are just whining about the option you wanted failing. Which you do constantly and all the time in both fics and RPs and whatever.

I've already pointed out the issue with the poll. And, the option I wanted did not "fail". It may not have got the most votes as a first-choice, but that does not necessarily make it less popular than the other options overall.


So I don't see why the mods should have to even care about your unbased complaints anyway.

I don't see why they should have to care about this poll which came to no firm conclusions either, so....


...


...IT'S A POLL!

Yes, but that does not mean that it has to be run by the First Past The Post system....

It sucks for electing governments and it sucks for choosing winners in a poll like this, because it is quite simply not fair, and the result depends entirely on what options are put up for vote.


How is this poll biased? I don't get it. If anything the former poll was biased because the two BL-tan options were one.

How is that more biased?

You have a bunch of options all rolled into the "text and banner" choice whilst splitting the BL-tan options enough to ensure that they didn't win a plurality.


In any case, we have a result, and I expect DP to act on that, after all it can also include old BL-tan in a better-drawn form if she gets voted.

Rubbish. There is not a "result" there. There is a clear indication that we want something done, but no clear indication of what that "something" actually is.


Not having an absolute majority for such a trivial issue is stupid. I just want it changed so that the site banner actually looks pretty for once, and I won't let you get in the way of that just because you like throwing a fit, Mike.

No it fucking well is not fucking "stupid". You are the one who is fucking stupid for pushing one side despite it not winning a clear majority, and for making a fucking biased poll in the first place.


Because honestly, the only thing you always did in the threads discussing the banners was BLOCKING and not doing shit, and that's why I created the poll, to show that people actually want a new banner and so that you can't just suffocate all discussion about it by screaming the loudest. Because it's better to have a tyranny of the majority than the tyranny of one person with a loud organ.

But you've not demonstrated anything.

I'm happy to have a new banner, but I am not happy to accept based on a vote that wasn't even a majority that we have to have a rotating banner. If you really want something done, then why not start a new poll which doesn't split the BL-tan vote and see what the result is?


I find it interesting that the votes are a pretty much perfect 50/50 split between having BL-tan in some shape or form (new BL-tan, new pic, same pic) and not having her (text and image, just text).

Combined, both have 42 people voting for each.

Of course, in a simple vote, text and image wins, with new pic of BL-tan being second with quite a bit of difference between the two.

Exactly. Which is why I think that it's totally unreasonable to assume that a rotating banner is wanted, when only 40% of people actually voted for that (and the rest may well be stringently opposed to it).


I firmly disagree with the idea of banner rotation.

As well as the idea of adding Old BL-tan into the rotation, unless they prettified her or something.

Yeah, me too. I don't want a rotating banner, I want a single banner which isn't involving any of the canon characters, or else a free choice of banner for the members rather than one single set of banners chosen by the majority and forced on the rest.

Erlkonig
April 25th, 2012, 02:25 PM
The difference between the votes isn't overwhelming enough to completely discard BL-tan when it is possible to mediate between both parties with one solution, however. The ensuing majority from joining the two largest options would be effectively dominant enough to be called a definite majority.

RacingeR
April 25th, 2012, 02:26 PM
Hasn't DP basically announced that he intends to act based on this poll?

In any case, there is no worth discussing anything with you anymore, Mike. Keep on ragin' and trying to block shit. Maybe the millionth time is the charm.

I3uster
April 25th, 2012, 02:26 PM
Simple solution: create banners, hold vote, then another vote for rotating/not rotating.

Guarantees less butthurt. But first I want some kind of statement from the admins about this issue, and I hope they don't just squeeze themselves out of this thanks to your shouting, Mike.

Kratosirving
April 25th, 2012, 02:27 PM
The difference between the votes isn't overwhelming enough to completely discard BL-tan when it is possible to mediate between both parties with one solution, however. The ensuing majority from joining the two largest options would be effectively dominant enough to be called a definite majority.

^ Hence what I was getting at by making a different image of BL-tan included with the text/image bannners.

Mike1984
April 25th, 2012, 02:28 PM
The difference between the votes isn't overwhelming enough to completely discard BL-tan when it is possible to mediate between both parties with one solution, however. The ensuing majority from joining the two largest options would be effectively dominant enough to be called a definite majority.

The problem is that you're assuming that the people who voted for BL-tan did so because they wanted her included and not because they didn't want a rotating banner or canon characters, though. There is a clear majority against rotating banners, whereas there is not a majority against some kind of BL-tan (although it is actually exactly 50-50, so...).


Simple solution: create banners, hold vote, then another vote for rotating/not rotating.

The problem with that is that the poll for a choice of banners is likely to be different depending on whether we have one or many. If we only have one, then making it multiple choice doesn't make sense, really.


Guarantees less butthurt. But first I want some kind of statement from the admins about this issue, and I hope they don't just squeeze themselves out of this thanks to your shouting, Mike.

Well, yes, something from the admins would be nice, although I hope DP doesn't take his usual approach of ignoring all complaints and just going for the option with most votes without considering the context or how the poll was run....

Erlkonig
April 25th, 2012, 02:30 PM
The problem is that you're assuming that the people who voted for BL-tan did so because they wanted her included and not because they didn't want a rotating banner or canon characters, though. There is a clear majority against rotating banners, whereas there is not a majority against some kind of BL-tan (although it is actually exactly 50-50, so...).

I just thought of rotating banners as a means to an end, but I'm sure it's possible to put the characters together either way.

Mcjon01
April 25th, 2012, 02:36 PM
I would support something like this, but DP seems to think that it's "unfair" because it won't include $generic_high_school_student_54 who appears for one second in the background of one scene and, thus, that the only way to be "fair" is to ignore the less popular characters entirely and have loads of Saber and Rin banners....

You insultin' mah Makidera? D:<

Kyte
April 25th, 2012, 02:36 PM
I've already pointed out the issue with the poll. And, the option I wanted did not "fail". It may not have got the most votes as a first-choice, but that does not necessarily make it less popular than the other options overall.



I don't see why they should have to care about this poll which came to no firm conclusions either, so....



Yes, but that does not mean that it has to be run by the First Past The Post system....

It sucks for electing governments and it sucks for choosing winners in a poll like this, because it is quite simply not fair, and the result depends entirely on what options are put up for vote.



How is that more biased?

You have a bunch of options all rolled into the "text and banner" choice whilst splitting the BL-tan options enough to ensure that they didn't win a plurality.



Rubbish. There is not a "result" there. There is a clear indication that we want something done, but no clear indication of what that "something" actually is.



No it fucking well is not fucking "stupid". You are the one who is fucking stupid for pushing one side despite it not winning a clear majority, and for making a fucking biased poll in the first place.



But you've not demonstrated anything.

I'm happy to have a new banner, but I am not happy to accept based on a vote that wasn't even a majority that we have to have a rotating banner. If you really want something done, then why not start a new poll which doesn't split the BL-tan vote and see what the result is?



Exactly. Which is why I think that it's totally unreasonable to assume that a rotating banner is wanted, when only 40% of people actually voted for that (and the rest may well be stringently opposed to it).



Yeah, me too. I don't want a rotating banner, I want a single banner which isn't involving any of the canon characters, or else a free choice of banner for the members rather than one single set of banners chosen by the majority and forced on the rest.

You're applying semantics to ONCE AGAIN try and block stuff from happening. HOW ABOUT YOU GET THE FUCK OUT INSTEAD? YOU DON'T FUCKING LIKE THIS FORUM. YOU DON'T LIKE THE ADMINS. YOU DON'T LIKE THE FORUM MEMBERS.
YOU HARASS.
YOU INSULT.
YOU HATE EVERYONE.
AND EVERYONE HATES YOU.

YOU ARE THE CANCER OF BEAST LAIR. YOU ARE THE CANCER OF THE ENTIRE FUCKING INTERNET. YOU'VE BEEN BANNED FROM ANIMESUKI. YOU WOULD SURELY GET BANNED FROM SPACEBATTLES. YOU WOULD GET BANNED FROM EVERYWHERE BUT HERE, AND THAT'S ONLY BECAUSE THE ADMINS AND MODS HERE DON'T LIKE BANNING ANYONE. GET THE FUCK OFF. STOP PRETENDING YOUR OPINION MATTERS SHIT. GET SOME SHIT DONE IN YOUR LIFE AND STOP ANNOYING US. HOW ABOUT THAT.

Erlkonig
April 25th, 2012, 02:37 PM
I would support something like this, but DP seems to think that it's "unfair" because it won't include $generic_high_school_student_54 who appears for one second in the background of one scene and, thus, that the only way to be "fair" is to ignore the less popular characters entirely and have loads of Saber and Rin banners....

Wow. Paranoia, much? I don't think that's going to happen.

Arashi_Leonhart
April 25th, 2012, 02:38 PM
snip

Whoa, dude, chill.

Erlkonig
April 25th, 2012, 02:39 PM
ur a faget


sup /a/non.

Laith
April 25th, 2012, 02:44 PM
...Welp.

Mike1984
April 25th, 2012, 02:45 PM
Wow. Paranoia, much? I don't think that's going to happen.

Well, that's how DP has set up the voting system....

Erlkonig
April 25th, 2012, 02:47 PM
Well, that's how DP has set up the voting system....

And why, exactly, is it going to be full of Saber and Rin pics?

If anything, it should be Ryougi and Casko.

Kratosirving
April 25th, 2012, 02:47 PM
...While Kyte will likely end up banned for this, (and probably myself now) and is right on several levels, it only serves to prove that the board has quickly devolved from the small peace that was implemented about two months ago with the implementation of the new warning/ban system back to the pile of crap it had (has) become.

Mods, admins, its clear at this point that more clamping down will have to happen. This constant, never-ending cycle of certain members arguing/trolling/insulting other certain members back and forth has got to stop one way or another, and the current handling of offenses clearly isn't working.

Erlkonig
April 25th, 2012, 02:49 PM
Kratos, that is a terrible idea. If clamping down only worked temporarily, the same thing's gonna have the same result, only worse since you're asking for a stricter handling.


At this rate we'll all become Kebab removers ;_;

Mike1984
April 25th, 2012, 02:50 PM
And why, exactly, is it going to be full of Saber and Rin pics?

If anything, it should be Ryougi and Casko.

Well, possibly them too. Who exactly would be dominating isn't important, just the fact that the system means that the popular characters will dominate.


...While Kyte will likely end up banned for this, (and probably myself now) and is right on several levels, it only serves to prove that the board has quickly devolved from the small peace that was implemented about two months ago with the implementation of the new warning/ban system back to the pile of crap it had (has) become.

Kyte maybe, but I don't see why you will be....


Mods, admins, its clear at this point that more clamping down will have to happen. This constant, never-ending cycle of certain members arguing/trolling/insulting other certain members back and forth has got to stop one way or another, and the current handling of offenses clearly isn't working.

Well, "arguing" is kind-of the point of a forum, and I don't recall doing any trolling or very much "insulting", so....

RacingeR
April 25th, 2012, 02:51 PM
Mike. You disagreed with us.

If we go by your definition, that means that you trolled.

Arashi_Leonhart
April 25th, 2012, 02:51 PM
Well, "arguing" is kind-of the point of a forum

Wat

Mike1984
April 25th, 2012, 02:52 PM
Mike. You disagreed with us.

If we got by your definition, that means that you trolled.

No, disagreeing with people is not trolling. Deliberately saying things with the intent of winding people up is trolling....


Wat

Well, part of the point, anyway. We wouldn't have much of a forum without people discussing things....

Erlkonig
April 25th, 2012, 02:52 PM
Well, "arguing" is kind-of the point of a forum, and I don't recall doing any trolling or very much "insulting", so....


No it fucking well is not fucking "stupid". You are the one who is fucking stupid for pushing one side despite it not winning a clear majority, and for making a fucking biased poll in the first place.

?

EDIT: Ok 'fucking' is a commonly used curse word in threads such as powerlevels and such but are you saying this isn't an "insult" by definition?

Kyte
April 25th, 2012, 02:52 PM
Well, "arguing" is kind-of the point of a forum, and I don't recall doing any trolling or very much "insulting", so....

You told me you regularly call Altima a moron. You've called almost everyone else in the forum a moron at least once. You call anyone who disagrees with you a troll, and basically dismiss their opinions as stupid and unworthy of attention.

Also what Erl said.

Optimus
April 25th, 2012, 02:52 PM
I don't hate you Mike. You weren't that bad back then, eh, perhaps a bit too long and insistent in the way you expressed your personal opinions, but at least you were polite. To be honest, I just happen to find you annoying as of late. So, from the depth of my heart, not cool, bro. Not cool. You interrupt discussions between other users, cause high derails, will berate others' opinions. That's not the kind of person I want in Beast's Lair.

In my opinion, there is something strange going on with Mike1984, since he has been nothing but a bother to large parts of the beast's lair community as of late, and yet no action has been made against him. True, he has been banned once, and calmed down, but he is back again with the exact same attitude and yet no actions are taken. Also, it makes me wonder why the hell cannot I express my personal opinion towards people's works in my own wording, or why a mere parody of someone else's title has to be taken as a personal offence all the way down. Seriously people, this is just not cool.

Goddamn it all. This isn't a real forum. A forum is an open place, where everyone freely discusses everything orderly and in peace. Here there is no such thing. Up to now we've been okay simply because everyone stayed in their own niches, 2 or 3 subforums at best, barely making contact with the other people. It feels like each subforum could just work as a forum independent from the rest. In nasuverse terms, rather than being an united kingdom we're something akin to a dispersed group of tribes that just happen to live in the same tract of land.

These posts aren't to blame. Oh no, these posts are just the drop that fills the glass. The problem lies somewhere else, deep within the foundations of this very community, and it's that we aren't really such a thing, so we have two choices: accepting reality as it is, giving up any kind of joint projects and going back to our own businesses or seriously discussing the hell is going on and mending the problem.

Mike1984
April 25th, 2012, 02:54 PM
Well, point out what I've done that is remotely actionable....

Also, I don't see anything that says that forums have to be "orderly", or even peaceful (even though the second would be nice, to some extent at least). I'd rather a forum where people are free to say what they believe (within reason) than one which is so tightly-controlled that everyone is scared to give their opinion.

This particular argument is different, though, because the result of this actually does directly affect me (as well as everyone else). So, I see no reason why I should just keep quiet about it and let people like Kyte force through their preferred outcome despite it not even being clearly supported by the majority (even ignoring the argument about majority rule that I keep making).

Kratosirving
April 25th, 2012, 02:56 PM
Erl, you have to agree that the new rules is still too light, and the problem that existed beforehand where the admins were too light on handing out punishments still persists. I know that Altima is the only one who really handles issues around this time of the day, but he he himself disregards that he helped implement when he tries to defuse situations rather then handle them when they get out of control like an admin should. When those with authority set standards to respond to situations in the hopes to curb them, and the status of the board returns to that state in just 2 months, it's obvious that the problem isn't going away, and something else has to be done.

Edit: Opti, I'd love to discuss how to fix the forum seriously. I've asked myself the question several times already about how to make the forum better, and there's basically only three paths that I can see. Either ban the "problem members" for a week (Mike, Neir, Lantz, Kyte, etc.) for a week and see how the forum goes in their absense; Have the same "problem members" have as long of a discussion with ALL of the Admins/Mods until each one of them understands that their current behavior can't continue; Or lastly, have harsher restrictions on the board because these problems can't be solved. At our current rate, we're on a run-away fast track towards the last of those paths.

Arashi_Leonhart
April 25th, 2012, 02:56 PM
Well, part of the point, anyway. We wouldn't have much of a forum without people discussing things....

Discussing = arguing?

Kyte
April 25th, 2012, 02:57 PM
Well, point out what I've done that is remotely actionable....
ahahahahahahahaha.
This is bait.


Also, I don't see anything that says that forums have to be "orderly", or even peaceful (even though the second would be nice, to some extent at least). I'd rather a forum where people are free to say what they believe (within reason) than one which is so tightly-controlled that everyone is scared to give their opinion.
You are the fucking terrorist. Everyone is afraid of saying their opinion with anything that is even remotely related to anything you care about because if they do, you will once again post yet another rant and cause yet another derail.

Erlkonig
April 25th, 2012, 02:58 PM
Erl, you have to agree that the new rules is still too light, and the problem that existed beforehand where the admins were too light on handing out punishments still persists. I know that Altima is the only one who really handles issues around this time of the day, but he he himself disregards that he helped implement when he tries to defuse situations rather then handle them when they get out of control like an admin should. When those with authority set standards to respond to situations in the hopes to curb them, and the status of the board returns to that state in just 2 months, it's obvious that the problem isn't going away, and something else has to be done.

Yeah, but it's hard to control yourself from trolling/saying something inappropiate sometimes, either you're filled with too much lulz or were drawn in by others. I have lots of friends in BL as well as RPs I post in, and I wouldn't want to get banned from posting in them due to silly mistakes I did.


This particular argument is different, though, because the result of this actually does directly affect me (as well as everyone else). So, I see no reason why I should just keep quiet about it and let people like Kyte force through their preferred outcome despite it not even being clearly supported by the majority (even ignoring the argument about majority rule that I keep making).

Doesn't your majority rule include minorities as well? How does that work?

Mike1984
April 25th, 2012, 02:59 PM
Erl, you have to agree that the new rules is still too light, and the problem that existed beforehand where the admins were too light on handing out punishments still persists. I know that Altima is the only one who really handles issues around this time of the day, but he he himself disregards that he helped implement when he tries to defuse situations rather then handle them when they get out of control like an admin should. When those with authority set standards to respond to situations in the hopes to curb them, and the status of the board returns to that state in just 2 months, it's obvious that the problem isn't going away, and something else has to be done.

OK, what?

Why shouldn't admins try to defuse situations rather than just impose punishments on people when they get angry? The job of the admins is not to throw around bans like candy, it's to ensure that the forum works effectively.


Yeah, but it's hard to control yourself from trolling/saying something inappropiate sometimes, either you're filled with too much lulz or were drawn in by others. I have lots of friends in BL as well as RPs I post in, and I wouldn't want to get banned from posting in them due to silly mistakes I did.

Exactly.

People make mistakes. Whether that be getting overly snarky or getting pissed off and posting an angry comment, it happens some times. It's silly to jump on every little mistake with full force, or even to outright encourage such mistakes by not intervening when you see them approaching.


Doesn't your majority rule include minorities as well? How does that work?

I meant my argument against just doing what the majority wants without consideration for everyone else....

RacingeR
April 25th, 2012, 03:01 PM
The rules not being thight enough is not the problem.

The problem is them applying equally to everyone.

And you know what the sad thing is? Despite Kyte's posts being so "assholish" or whatever, he is still right.

Optimus
April 25th, 2012, 03:01 PM
Mike. Order in forums is created out of sheer niceness. It is because of people who act like you as of late that order cannot be achieved the normal way, and because of wusses who cannot stand a freaking joke or cannot return it the same way that we, normal users who just seek to have meaningful conversations find ourselves trapped in derails as silly as these.

Rules don't do anything as long as the persons are not nice. Rules act after the delictive act has been commited. Rather than rules, what we need is a new set of morality, so our damn consciousness will tell us when to stop being damn idiots and just go back to our own business.

Kyte
April 25th, 2012, 03:01 PM
This particular argument is different, though, because the result of this actually does directly affect me (as well as everyone else). So, I see no reason why I should just keep quiet about it and let people like Kyte force through their preferred outcome despite it not even being clearly supported by the majority (even ignoring the argument about majority rule that I keep making).
You are the one trying to push his own opinion under the badly-disguised veil of "fair for everyone". I just did my vote and now I'm ranting against you because you are a goddamn obstacle to the everything that is democratic and fair.

You motherfucking hypocrite.

Erlkonig
April 25th, 2012, 03:04 PM
This is now looking really similar to the American politics from my cartoons.

"YOU ARE THE ENEMY OF FREEDOM AND JUSTICE, RICHARD!"
"I AM THE LAST AMERICAN HERO YOU EVILDOER"

Oh man MWC I love you

Mike1984
April 25th, 2012, 03:04 PM
You are the one trying to push his own opinion under the badly-disguised veil of "fair for everyone". I just did my vote and now I'm ranting against you because you are a goddamn obstacle to the everything that is democratic and fair.

But your option did not win. 60% of people voted not to have a rotating text-and-image banner. Just because I3uster happened to add three BL-tan options which split the vote enough for it to get a plurality, that doesn't mean that you can claim victory (particularly since the admins did not sanction the poll and did not give any statement of what would be classed as a "victory"). If you run 24 miles of a marathon you can't claim victory just because no-one else managed to complete the race either.

Optimus
April 25th, 2012, 03:05 PM
Yes Mike, yes you can if you were the one who ran the farthest.

Erlkonig
April 25th, 2012, 03:06 PM
Both of your opinions are invalid, because you are not "THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA!"

/metalwolfchaos

Kyte
April 25th, 2012, 03:07 PM
But your option did not win. 60% of people voted not to have a rotating text-and-image banner. Just because I3uster happened to add three BL-tan options which split the vote enough for it to get a plurality, that doesn't mean that you can claim victory (particularly since the admins did not sanction the poll and did not give any statement of what would be classed as a "victory"). If you run 24 miles of a marathon you can't claim victory just because no-one else managed to complete the race either.
It has simple majority. That is enough to win.

Optimus
April 25th, 2012, 03:07 PM
Erl, you have said the most rational thing in this post. Congratulations.

Mike1984
April 25th, 2012, 03:07 PM
Yes Mike, yes you can if you were the one who ran the farthest.

I'm pretty sure that's not true. If you don't finish the race, then you don't win it....


It has simple majority. That is enough to win.

Says who...?

Erlkonig
April 25th, 2012, 03:09 PM
Erl, you have said the most rational thing in this post. Congratulations.

I, Richard Hawk, kindly thank you for your praise!

Mcjon01
April 25th, 2012, 03:09 PM
You could claim some kind of victory. A personal victory, maybe. You did run pretty far.

Couldn't claim to have completed a marathon, though.

Laith
April 25th, 2012, 03:10 PM
Says who...?

...haven't you been saying that Mike? Or I'm getting confused?

Mike1984
April 25th, 2012, 03:10 PM
You could claim some kind of victory. A personal victory, maybe. You did run pretty far.

Couldn't claim to have completed a marathon, though.

The point is that you couldn't claim to have won the race, because you didn't even finish.


...haven't you been saying that Mike? Or I'm getting confused?

No, I've been saying the exact opposite....

I3uster
April 25th, 2012, 03:11 PM
I swear to god, if I don't get a new banner because it's Mike vs the world again...

Optimus
April 25th, 2012, 03:12 PM
If you are the one who ran the farthest, you are the best, thus you won. Period. If no one finishes the race, whoever runs the farthest is the winner.

Laith
April 25th, 2012, 03:12 PM
That minorities should win? Wha? how does that makes sense?

Lycodrake
April 25th, 2012, 03:12 PM
I swear to god, if I don't get a new banner because it's Mike vs the world again...
But would Mike make a better MC than Scott Pilgrim?

Mike1984
April 25th, 2012, 03:13 PM
I swear to god, if I don't get a new banner because it's Mike vs the world again...

I have no problem with a new banner, I just want it to not be a rotating one.

It's not like we have to decide right now, in any case. An extra week of waiting isn't going to kill you (particularly given that the rotating banner option will almost certainly take longer to set up than the single banner option).


That minorities should win? Wha? how does that makes sense?

But every option is a "minority"....

I3uster
April 25th, 2012, 03:15 PM
The problem is that I see a mod intervention going "lol everyone is raging around this, better not do anything before anyone gets upset" on the horizon.

I know you read this DP, and by the number of reports this thread has Altima too. Please, please, please don't do that.

Erlkonig
April 25th, 2012, 03:15 PM
Says who...?

I would like to (sort of) agree with Mike on this. Although I recognize simple majority does give the option great weight, the second-runner has just over two-thirds of its weight, so it can't just be ignored. Shouldn't be the same as in politics, where a ruling party makes laws in favor of a simple majority- BL's technicalities are not as broad as a country's specifics, after all.

So yeah, no doubt the image-and-text banner will happen, but there are still 50% of the people who want BL-tan in some shape or form, with a tendency towards the older one.

Mellon
April 25th, 2012, 03:15 PM
Am I reading this right?

So much butthurt and sheer vitrol over something so inconsequential as a goddamn banner?

I guess the lure of forum DORAMA is too high.

Laith
April 25th, 2012, 03:16 PM
Errh 39% would be the majority in this case. The minority would the 4% The others are average in their percentage.

Mike1984
April 25th, 2012, 03:17 PM
I would like to (sort of) agree with Mike on this. Although I recognize simple majority does give the option great weight, the second-runner has just over two-thirds of its weight, so it can't just be ignored. Shouldn't be the same as in politics, where a ruling party makes laws in favor of a simple majority- BL's technicalities are not as broad as a country's specifics, after all.

Well, I disagree with it in politics too, so....


So yeah, no doubt the image-and-text banner will happen, but there are still 50% of the people who want BL-tan in some shape or form, with a tendency towards the older one.

Well, it's pretty clear that some kind of new text and image banner will happen (the original banner and the text-only banner were clearly unpopular). The only question, really, is the format.

Optimus
April 25th, 2012, 03:18 PM
Mellon, it's not a banner.

It's people not understanding that everyone's opinion cannot be represented, no matter how hard you try. Especially in a community like this. Best solution is go fuck it, no banner change, and everyone just lurk back to their business in their respective niches... I mean, subforums. It's either that or suddenly becoming nicer, more understanding and tolerant people, and I've never ever seen that happen.

I3uster
April 25th, 2012, 03:19 PM
Mellon, it's not a banner.

It's people not understanding that everyone's opinion cannot be represented, no matter how hard you try. Especially in a community like this. Best solution is go fuck it, no banner change, and everyone just lurk back to their business in their respective niches... I mean, subforums. It's either that or suddenly becoming nicer, more understanding and tolerant people, and I've never ever seen that happen.
I will eat your liver.

Mike1984
April 25th, 2012, 03:19 PM
It's people not understanding that everyone's opinion cannot be represented, no matter how hard you try. Especially in a community like this.

No, but you can at least try, and DP doesn't really even bother.


Best solution is go fuck it, no banner change, and everyone just go back to their business. It's either that or suddenly becoming nicer, more understanding and tolerant people, and I've never ever seen that happen.

Judging by I3uster's opinion, that isn't likely to work either....

Erlkonig
April 25th, 2012, 03:20 PM
Mellon, it's not a banner.

It's people not understanding that everyone's opinion cannot be represented, no matter how hard you try. Especially in a community like this. Best solution is go fuck it, no banner change, and everyone just lurk back to their business in their respective niches... I mean, subforums. It's either that or suddenly becoming nicer, more understanding and tolerant people, and I've never ever seen that happen.

Problem is you can't go back on no banner change, because only a very small minority wants to keep it after the issue is addressed. People just won't back away from something that's sparked their curiosity until it is changed in some way.

Mellon
April 25th, 2012, 03:20 PM
Mellon, it's not a banner.

It's people not understanding that everyone's opinion cannot be represented, no matter how hard you try. Especially in a community like this. Best solution is go fuck it, no banner change, and everyone just go back to their business. It's either that or suddenly becoming nicer, more understanding and tolerant people, and I've never ever seen that happen.

I would prefer "no banner change" to massive assholishness from all parties involved. Calling it "just Mike's fault" and "lets just ban him" is easy and all, but when it comes down to it, there is a lot more rage flying around BL in general these days and a lot less tolerance.

In the end, it always takes two to tango.

RacingeR
April 25th, 2012, 03:22 PM
I would prefer "no banner change" to massive assholishness from all parties involved. Calling it "just Mike's fault" and "lets just ban him" is easy and all, but when it comes down to it, there is a lot more rage flying around BL in general these days and a lot less tolerance.

In the end, it always takes two to tango.

Well, a solution would be a collective ignore towards Mike, but we all know that is not happening.

Mellon
April 25th, 2012, 03:25 PM
Well, a solution would be a collective ignore towards Mike, but we all know that is not happening.

For some reason, I suspect people will just find another outlet, rather then just "calm down".

Optimus
April 25th, 2012, 03:25 PM
Well, in sociopolitical terms we've reached a no-turnback point. Almost nobody wants the old BL-tan, yet that's the only thing you fuckers have agreed on. Nice. That's like saying, sure, let's overthrow the evil dictator, but later can't freaking get the health system back into work.

Buster, I'm not saying that we should go back. I am just saying that before changing it, we are going to need more discussion than just a mere poll. We need to do this in a more organized, more civilized manner, after everyone has calmed the fuck down and stops bullshitting everyone who does not agree with their own personal opinion, and with more than just a moderator present.

Altima of the Gates
April 25th, 2012, 03:26 PM
Alright, that is enough.

As I have not had too much time to look over the actual discussion, given that I am preparing for a new assignment as well as reviewing job offers, and am only glancing periodically at the forum, i don't know the whole kit and kaboodle. Now, can we please cut this argument out, Mike, I'm especially talking to you, as this really looks like you're arguing for the principle of the matter, rather than it actually be a point of contention.

By the weekend, once I'm caught up, say Saturday, I'll give my opinion on this and talk more with DP. But I honestly do not see how a banner can really foster this much debate. Sure it'd be nice for a change, but it's not really something to get all fussy about, but we will make a decision. Now since I'd rather not lock this thread, chill on this for now.

Erlkonig
April 25th, 2012, 03:26 PM
Well, a solution would be a collective ignore towards Mike, but we all know that is not happening.

It's not just with mike, there's an overall decrease in tolerance in BL right now. Whether it's justified or not is a whole can of worms that I don't think should be opened here, it'll just further derail the thread.

Optimus
April 25th, 2012, 03:28 PM
Altima and DP, in all honesty I don't believe it's the banner, it's a great deal of the community. Something has to be done ASAP.

Mike1984
April 25th, 2012, 03:29 PM
Now, can we please cut this argument out, Mike, I'm especially talking to you, as this really looks like you're arguing for the principle of the matter, rather than it actually be a point of contention.

Really?

Because I sure as hell don't think I am. I'm arguing because I don't think it's fair that that option should win even though it didn't obtain a majority, and it is most definitely a "point of contention". Just because you don't actually have the foggiest clue what you're talking about, that doesn't mean you should just accuse me of things based on your opinion of my thoughts even when it happens to be completely and utterly wrong.

Erlkonig
April 25th, 2012, 03:31 PM
Really?

Because I sure as hell don't think I am. I'm arguing because I don't think it's fair that that option should win even though it didn't obtain a majority, and it is most definitely a "point of contention". Just because you don't actually have the foggiest clue what you're talking about, that doesn't mean you should just accuse me of things based on your opinion of my thoughts even when it happens to be completely and utterly wrong.

But opinions can't be wrong.

Malgos
April 25th, 2012, 03:31 PM
I know you read this DP, and by the number of reports this thread has Altima too. Please, please, please don't do that.

Agreed, please don't do that.

Regarding the topic, personally I don't want rotating banners either. I still voted for the option that I want, which is a banner with an image and text. I'd prefer if it was just one banner, but unless there's going to be another vote on that it's up to the admins.

RacingeR
April 25th, 2012, 03:32 PM
Guys, lets just stop answering this thread until the mods can have a look at shit then take their decisions, okay?

Erlkonig
April 25th, 2012, 03:33 PM
Guys, lets just stop answering this thread until the mods can have a look at shit then take their decisions, okay?

Okay

I3uster
April 25th, 2012, 03:33 PM
They can lock it anyway, it's finished.

Altima of the Gates
April 25th, 2012, 03:38 PM
Alright then, I will lock it and we'll get back to you guys sometime this weekend. Next week at the latest in case something comes up.

Dark Pulse
April 25th, 2012, 04:19 PM
I think that a new banner is indeed welcomed, but I don't think you can really make much of a judgement on the content of such.Total votes: 84.

Votes for a new, not necessarily BL-tan based image-and-text banner: 32.
Votes for a new banner but with the current BL-tan: 23.
Votes for a new BL-tan entirely: 15.

Any two of these together trumps all the other choices combined. Therefore, it's pretty clear the community, in general, wants a new banner in some way, shape, or form. Just because one choice did not get an absolute majority does not mean community sentiment cannot be gained from that poll. Very few wanted just text, and even fewer want to keep the current one. Therefore, the community wants change.

If you really want "absolute majority" all it would mean would be that I would take the top three options and have people vote on those. If there's still no clear consensus, I'd do a third round where it's just the top two. That means two more topics full of posts like this one, where I try to explain how I'm getting this information, and you complaining it's not overwhelming, immediate community support or something.

For claiming the forum is run by the forumites, you sure seem to think that their choice matters less than yours because they didn't pick one single choice overwhelmingly. The three choices above got 84.53% of the vote. I would say that's definitely "absolute majority," Mike. If we want to go by absolute majorities for a single choice, a purely new image-and-text banner beat out Old BL-tan, new picture by almost 12%. So either way, no matter how you slice it, the community wants something new.


But you are completely ignoring me, and everyone else who has complaints. Don't try to pretend otherwise. You act to serve the majority (by your own admission) whilst trampling over the minority, and you seemingly don't give a flying fuck.Absolutely not, but at the same time, the overwhelming majority of the community's opinion differs. Since this is a forum "run" by the forumites, the voice of the majority should dictate forum direction in most senses. Therefore, if the majority wants a new image up there, that means more of the community is for that than against that. Ergo, we will change it.

For what it's worth, you're really the only person of the minority making this into such a big deal. I could see if many other people who voted for the losing option was complaining, but really, it's just you. As I've said before, one person complaining they don't like an action is hardly enough to rethink a course, especially when the vast majority is saying they want something else.


Actually, yes, I did object, because I don't see any reason to have a limit at all, barring technical limitations. However, I didn't really have a problem with the final result (because I honestly couldn't imagine any scenario where it will get hit, although, amusingly, your poll for banners could end up violating it...), so I didn't see any point in pressing my complaints further.I'm pretty sure I'm immune from those sorts of limits. If not, I can always raise them for the poll and then re-lower them once it's posted at any rate.


How the bloody hell are you being remotely "fair"? Your entire system is set up to be biased towards the majority with no regard whatsoever for the minority, even down to the way you're determining how many banners each character is allowed and the voting system itself.

You've set it up to basically guarentee that Rin, Saber etc. will get as many banners as they're allowed (which will probably be quite a lot) and that less popular characters (which may or may not include Sakura) will get none. Further, the way you're counting banners with multiple characters (particularly when coupled with the 25% restriction) is also biased against minor characters, because images of them with a more major character are likely to be more popular and, thus, images of them alone will likely get washed out (whereas the same will not happen to the major characters because they will be allowed more banners in total). Additionally, your rules for producing images makes it very hard for those of us who can't draw, because we're extremely limited in our choice in pictures to use. Finally, your voting system is designed in such a way that people really can't pick only the banners they like for a particular character (especially if there are a lot of them), because the vote for that character might get split and they'll end up with nothing.You're also assuming extreme scenarios. While I do expect more of the popular characters in general, I also seriously doubt there will be 25 Saber banners and 60 entries. Furthermore, you also assume that every Saber fan is going to automatically vote for every Saber banner, no matter how shitty or crappy it is - in other words, your numbers assumed every Saber banner would be a stunning, perfect work of art that would be a must-have.

I may like Rin, for example, but if there's, say, 7 Rin banners entered but four of them are pretty shit, I'm not going to vote for all seven - I'm going to vote for those three that I like, and furthermore, maybe I'll find a really awesome Hassan banner I like that will also get my votes, or this really kickass pose of Alphard that I feel is worthy enough for me to put my praise toward.

You're forgetting this entirely: People are not just going to automatically vote for characters they like (I don't think even Koto would vote for a stick figure that has "My name is Matou Shinji" written next to it), but they're also going to vote for really kickass, awesome pieces of art even if they're mixed on the character, and they're also not going to automatically fanboy/fangirl up just because they like a character and will blindly vote for them. When you think about what your "numbers" show in a logical way, your argument just crumples into dust, because it presents results that, while theoretically possible, have a lesser chance of happening than you personally witnessing Elvis crash a UFO into the Loch Ness Monster, seeing Bigfoot crawl out of the smoking wreckage, and hitchiking home after calling E.T.

I'm pretty sure the results will be more like some awesome banners of indvidual characters, and a handful of awesome banners that have multiple characters. Admittedly, the biggest problem with my system may be group shots that have multiple characters that have hit character limits for certain characters, because normally I'd have to DQ the whole banner. I guess I'd put those up to public votes or something.


DP has explicitly excluded anything other than official art and self-produced (or commissioned) art (although I'm not entirely sure why that is somehow considered less prone to complaints than random art from Pixiv...). That is a huge limitation on what we can use, and makes producing a decent picture very difficult, especially with multiple characters.I'll make this clear (as several people did): Official art includes anything from Type-Moon. That means game sprites, books, anything they publish. Commissioned art (or self-done art) needs no permission since you've either entered a private contract with the commissioned artist (and in doing so, assumption that you have credit to reuse the image is assumed since that's the whole point of a commission), and self-done art obviously needs no crediting since you own the drawing. Using public resources (Deviantart/Pixiv) is allowed, but only if you obtain permission from the artist to use their artwork. Otherwise, it is not allowed.

If that isn't clear enough, then ask something more specific. I think those rules make pretty good and clear sense. The fact you don't know what art is "official" should hopefully be cleared up by the above (i.e; if Type-Moon released it themselves, it's official art; if it's in the games, it's official art).


The problem is that, whilst the vote pretty clearly supports doing something, there's no clear consensus as to what that "something" should be....Nearly 85% wants a new banner. Clear enough. They differ on what they want that new banner to be, but they definitely want something new.


I would support something like this, but DP seems to think that it's "unfair" because it won't include $generic_high_school_student_54 who appears for one second in the background of one scene and, thus, that the only way to be "fair" is to ignore the less popular characters entirely and have loads of Saber and Rin banners.......Who the hell is going to draw a banner of Generic_High_School_Student_54? Nobody.

In my opinion, if they're not named, they don't count. They need to have name value, even if it's minor-character name value. Also, I love how you just constantly throw out Saber and Rin. You're forgetting that Arcueid and Ryougi Shiki are just as over, if not moreso. But see earlier in my post anyway, where I pretty much destroy your argument.


That's stupid, though, particularly since I3uster made the poll, and is biased towards one of the options. I could easily have made a poll with different options and obtained a different result as a consequence.I'm pretty sure it doesn't matter who would've made the poll - community sentiment is community sentiment. They want something new. It's that simple.


Well, regardless, it's ludicrous to look at this poll and decide that the majority of people want a rotating banner with images. I would imagine that most of those who wanted a new BL-tan would prefer the old one with a different picture to rotating banners (and the converse is almost certainly true), and those who voted to keep the current banner would almost certainly prefer the old BL-tan with a new picture.That much is correct - while they voted they want something new, they did not necessarily want a new banner.

Guess what the next poll is, coming up right after this post?


I didn't, though. There was no majority in favour of your option, and claiming victory just because the poll was biased towards you (by having 3 options that involve a new BL-tan and only one involving rotating images) is extremely unfair. Further, DP did not make this poll, so I see no reason whatsoever why he should be bound by it, given that it did not even reach a firm conclusion.Again, it wouldn't have mattered who did it really since I probably would've made nearly-identical options. But now that I know, via this poll, that the community wants something new, the only question is if they want a new image of BL-tan, a single, new image (without preference to BL-tan or a different character), or if they want rotating banners. Based on the results of this poll, it's clear the community does not want to keep the years-old current banner, and plain text is also not going to cut it.


No, I did not "lose". You are just claiming victory because you consider your side to have won, despite there being no official definition of "victory" and the poll being biased towards your side.To be fair, you wanted the old banner to stay, or be removed. Even if "No banner at all" was an option, I seriously, seriously doubt the community would've voted as overwhelmingly for that as they did for wanting something new.

So yes, Mike, your choice did indeed lose. The community was not one with you on this topic.


No, because I voted for the option I did precisely because I did not want rotating banners or canon characters. I don't particularly care about BL-tan per-se, I just think that it's better than DP's horribly biased and unfair canon character poll. Your assumption is entirely false.

Further, if that was the correct solution, then why wasn't that option in the poll alongside one with the characters? And why weren't the other possible permutations of "image and text banner" included, given that the BL-tan options are all just subsets of that anyway (the current banner certainly counts as an "image and text banner")?

The "image and text" option won because it was the broadest, not because it was necessarily the most popular. The poll should have included all the different permutations of that, such as one banner or rotating banners, and canon characters, none or a mixture. Hell, rotation was not even explicitly required in the choice.The majority definitely wants something new - to what extent is now what I'm going to find out. That said, based on what I've read, I don't think Kratosirving is too far off the mark, either.


In any case, we have a result, and I expect DP to act on that, after all it can also include old BL-tan in a better-drawn form if she gets voted.
Not having an absolute majority for such a trivial issue is stupid. I just want it changed so that the site banner actually looks pretty for once, and I won't let you get in the way of that just because you like throwing a fit, Mike.And I will be. As I said, now comes a new banner to see how "much" the community wants.


Because honestly, the only thing you always did in the threads discussing the banners was BLOCKING and not doing shit, and that's why I created the poll, to show that people actually want a new banner and so that you can't just suffocate all discussion about it by screaming the loudest. Because it's better to have a tyranny of the majority than the tyranny of one person with a loud organ.Fufufu... loud organs, you say?

Well, I'm sure there is somebody out there who appreciates his loud organ...♥

http://images.wikia.com/typemoon/images/5/5d/Kohaku_MBAA.png


I've already pointed out the issue with the poll. And, the option I wanted did not "fail". It may not have got the most votes as a first-choice, but that does not necessarily make it less popular than the other options overall.This much is correct. It is close enough that it warrants a run-off. That is what the next poll will be for, hopefully so that I can see if there is a good majority of the community on one option, and to resolve if they want one image or a set.

That said, it also wasn't the winner.


I don't see why they should have to care about this poll which came to no firm conclusions either, so....About 85% want something new; firm enough for me.


Yes, but that does not mean that it has to be run by the First Past The Post system....

It sucks for electing governments and it sucks for choosing winners in a poll like this, because it is quite simply not fair, and the result depends entirely on what options are put up for vote.Would you rather I dictate it? I think you'd prefer a poll in any way, shape, or form, versus me saying "This is how it will be done."


No it fucking well is not fucking "stupid". You are the one who is fucking stupid for pushing one side despite it not winning a clear majority, and for making a fucking biased poll in the first place.Watch the flaming.


Exactly. Which is why I think that it's totally unreasonable to assume that a rotating banner is wanted, when only 40% of people actually voted for that (and the rest may well be stringently opposed to it).For what it's worth, I think you're the only one assuming this means "rotating banners."


Yeah, me too. I don't want a rotating banner, I want a single banner which isn't involving any of the canon characters, or else a free choice of banner for the members rather than one single set of banners chosen by the majority and forced on the rest.Free choice is unlikely to happen due to how the skin system works. I suppose I could make "sets" of rotating banners that may be devoted to certain characters (e.g; a PHP script which will only go through Fate characters, another for those who prefer Tsukihime, some for the BL-tan fans and one mega-script for those who just plain don't care) as that would drastically cut down on the actual work I would have to do (as opposed to making hundreds of skins...) but overall, free choice is impossible, because the forums aren't coded to let you set what banner you want. Here I am, trying to meet you 50/50 as best as I can. Sometimes I think you completely ignore that I do try to extend a hand.


The problem is that you're assuming that the people who voted for BL-tan did so because they wanted her included and not because they didn't want a rotating banner or canon characters, though. There is a clear majority against rotating banners, whereas there is not a majority against some kind of BL-tan (although it is actually exactly 50-50, so...).This poll doesn't even discuss rotating banners, so I'd love to see where you're pulling this number from, Mr. Houdini.


Well, yes, something from the admins would be nice, although I hope DP doesn't take his usual approach of ignoring all complaints and just going for the option with most votes without considering the context or how the poll was run....The fact that there's three decently close options is enough proof that it needs to be distilled further. If there was indeed overwhelming majority (50%+) I would indeed have just acted immediately, but there's not. It also still doesn't answer the revolving banners issue, so a second poll is needed - and warranted.

You really need to stop assuming you know how I run things. You're not me.


見ないで!Have a nice day off.


Erl, you have to agree that the new rules is still too light, and the problem that existed beforehand where the admins were too light on handing out punishments still persists. I know that Altima is the only one who really handles issues around this time of the day, but he he himself disregards that he helped implement when he tries to defuse situations rather then handle them when they get out of control like an admin should. When those with authority set standards to respond to situations in the hopes to curb them, and the status of the board returns to that state in just 2 months, it's obvious that the problem isn't going away, and something else has to be done.We've been discussing a means to fix this for the last few days, especially since our schedules of when we're here is a bit disparate. Stay tuned.

As for me, I will now go make a second poll, since it's clear the main argument from Mike is that "We haven't decided static or rotating banners." And he's right: We haven't. We just decided we wanted something new.

Time to fix that.