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DragoZERO
March 23rd, 2011, 03:11 PM
For those of you who have finished all of Fate/stay night and wish to debate which Shirou is better. Spoilers abound and things may get ugly.

http://i.imgur.com/f9sY3.jpg

Gilgamesh
March 23rd, 2011, 03:15 PM
I... I definitely better not stay in this topic for long, but I'll first put my feelings out there!

Arguing which Shirou is better seems silly to me. They are each the same person, just going down different paths through different experiences. All the same, they each represent the growth of a single person with the same starting point. So, really, this only place this argument can go is "do you like Shirou better when following his ideals or when giving them up to protect a single person", which will in turn just become a Sakura argument. So, yeah.

Hyarion
March 23rd, 2011, 03:19 PM
No.

Please, no.

If you had said "discuss the difference between Shirou's development in the different routes", that's one thing, even if some people would interpret it as "which Shirou is better." But this -- come on, it's Shirou's life. What if I looked at you and said, "man, you would have been a better person if you'd only done X at some point in your past."

Kotonoha
March 23rd, 2011, 03:20 PM
Should've used that pic of Shirou and Rin sitting back-to-back.

...anyway yeah, this will not end well.

eddyak
March 23rd, 2011, 03:27 PM
My Shiki is better than your Shirou.

Trolling, begin

Gilgamesh
March 23rd, 2011, 03:31 PM
My Shiki is better than your Shirou.

Trolling, begin

Shiki can kill Shirous.

waitwhat

squall06
March 23rd, 2011, 03:36 PM
http://img862.imageshack.us/img862/8651/1284820015854.jpg (http://img862.imageshack.us/i/1284820015854.jpg/)

Kotonoha
March 23rd, 2011, 04:04 PM
My Tohno Shiki is better than your Ryougi Shiki.

DragoZERO
March 23rd, 2011, 04:07 PM
Should've used that pic of Shirou and Rin sitting back-to-back.

...anyway yeah, this will not end well.I am shame faced. I don't know why I didn't do that in the beginning.


My Shiki is better than your Shirou.

Trolling, beginCouldn't help yourself, huh.

Gilgamesh
March 23rd, 2011, 04:13 PM
My Tohno Shiki is better than your Ryougi Shiki.

My Nanaya Shiki is better than your Tohno Shiki.

Kotonoha
March 23rd, 2011, 04:15 PM
My Tohno SHIKI is better than all your Shikis.

DragoZERO
March 23rd, 2011, 04:18 PM
I actually think HF Shirou is the best one. I'd let half of the world burn if it meant being with the one I love. Why should I be sad and heartbroken while so many undeserving and sinful people live?

Where's my Ark...

Gilgamesh
March 23rd, 2011, 04:19 PM
My Tohno SHIKI is better than all your Shikis.

BUT CAN HE KILL SERVANTS?!?!/1!1?1?1?1/!/1/1/1!/111?1

eddyak
March 23rd, 2011, 04:28 PM
My Nanaya Shiki is better than your Tohno Shiki.
My Tohno Shiki denies your Nanaya Shiki's existence and stabs his dot.

Gilgamesh
March 23rd, 2011, 04:29 PM
My Tohno Shiki denies your Nanaya Shiki's existence and stabs his dot.

no because i am right

Keyne
March 23rd, 2011, 04:45 PM
My bitch is better than your whores. :|

Gilgamesh
March 23rd, 2011, 04:53 PM
My WOMEN are better than your CHILDREN!

HitokiriNanaya
March 23rd, 2011, 04:54 PM
My Satsujinki evolves from Tohno Shiki!

I used rare candy

Keyne
March 23rd, 2011, 04:59 PM
Altima, close this thread.

Kotonoha
March 23rd, 2011, 05:02 PM
Yeah, someone's going to seriously reply soon and everything will go to hell, we can only hold it off for so long.

eddyak
March 23rd, 2011, 05:03 PM
Must... resist... urge... to seriously troll...

Mike1984
March 23rd, 2011, 05:04 PM
Honestly, I don't see what's so wrong with having a thread like this. I mean, we argue about it anyway, so why not do so here?

We've had similar threads about the heroines before, and they went fine until trolls started showing up....

HitokiriNanaya
March 23rd, 2011, 05:05 PM
[insert how Kohaku won here]

TypeWannabe
March 23rd, 2011, 05:06 PM
Oh, so you only argue about cutting things off things when it's about isolating Sakura I get it.

DragoZERO
March 23rd, 2011, 05:06 PM
Must... resist... urge... to seriously troll...Your troll is successful. Be proud.

Mike1984
March 23rd, 2011, 05:08 PM
Oh, so you only argue about cutting things off things when it's about isolating Sakura I get it.

I'm not saying we can't discuss this elsewhere too....

But, Sakura already has her own fanclub for the purpose of discussing her, and she has a thread for her own route, too, and plus that thread was made specifically to try to prevent Sakura discussions appearing elsewhere. This thread, on the other hand, is a perfectly legitimate thread idea which covers a perfectly legitimate and as-yet-uncovered topic.

Gilgamesh
March 23rd, 2011, 05:10 PM
Yeah, someone's going to seriously reply soon and everything will go to hell, we can only hold it off for so long.

It was fun while it lasted, though.

Hyarion
March 23rd, 2011, 05:13 PM
a perfectly legitimate and as-yet-uncovered topic.

Legitimate? Nah.

As-yet-uncovered? ......What the hell are you talking about?

Keyne
March 23rd, 2011, 05:16 PM
It doesn't matter which Shirou is better. This one is the best.

http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/5800/afamilyportrait.png

Ergast
March 23rd, 2011, 05:17 PM
My Shirou is better than your Archer (your Gilgamesh Archer)

Seriously, Shirou is just amazing. Let's just leave it at that.

Another thing is talk about powerlevels of each Shirou. Then EMIYA wins, and then maybe (just maybe) HF!Shirou. Word of God stated that Fate!Shirou is the weakest of the Shirous (again, he didn't develop that far his magic, with time he would reach UBW!Shirou if he trains properly). But that's powerlevels, not what Shirou is better.


It doesn't matter which Shirou is better. This one is the best.

http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/5800/afamilyportrait.png

At least is the most surrounded. I'll give you that XDDD (I love that picture, seriously)

Ruca_Milda
March 23rd, 2011, 05:17 PM
Oh,my,like,gawd. you did not just,laik,say ur Shirou is better than my shirou,girl. Like,I'm so,like,gonna totally,lile,prove you,like,wrong,got it?

Gilgamesh
March 23rd, 2011, 05:18 PM
It doesn't matter which Shirou is better. This one is the best.

http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/5800/afamilyportrait.png

NO CASTER?! HOW DARE YOU!!! SHIROU THAT LIKES CASTER IS BETTER THAN THAT SHIROU!!!!

Mike1984
March 23rd, 2011, 05:19 PM
Legitimate? Nah.

How is comparing the character development of Shirou over the three different routes not a legitimate topic for a TM forum to discuss?


As-yet-uncovered? ......What the hell are you talking about?

There's no thread for it yet (well, before this one, obviously...).


It doesn't matter which Shirou is better. This one is the best.

http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/5800/afamilyportrait.png

I dunno about the best, but he's definitely the luckiest :)

Keyne
March 23rd, 2011, 05:19 PM
Caster is Souichirou's waifu. Why should she be here, in the Emiya Family?

Again, this is not a harem pic. It's a family pic.

Gilgamesh
March 23rd, 2011, 05:22 PM
Caster is Souichirou's waifu. Why should she be here, in the Emiya Family?

Again, this is not a harem pic. It's a family pic.

I was joking.

Keyne
March 23rd, 2011, 05:23 PM
I was joking.

*nuzzlenuzzlenuzzlenuzzle* :3

I dunno about the best, but he's definitely the luckiest
Indeed. I'd love to have such a family.

Cruor
March 23rd, 2011, 05:23 PM
My God, all of these damn topics remind me of the fucking 'Sakura, Rin, or Saber!' thread which went on for 200 pages off of troll bait.

Kotonoha
March 23rd, 2011, 05:23 PM
He's pretty strong, being able to piggyback Rin like that.

Gilgamesh
March 23rd, 2011, 05:25 PM
*nuzzlenuzzlenuzzlenuzzle* :3
*blush*





NOW PICTURE GILGAMESH BLUSHING DO IT DO IT

Keyne
March 23rd, 2011, 05:26 PM
*blush*





NOW PICTURE GILGAMESH BLUSHING DO IT DO IT

Y? '_'

Mike1984
March 23rd, 2011, 05:29 PM
My God, all of these damn topics remind me of the fucking 'Sakura, Rin, or Saber!' thread which went on for 200 pages off of troll bait.

That thread was perfectly fine, at least until assholes like Nahash showed up and started trolling everyone.

Ergast
March 23rd, 2011, 05:43 PM
He's pretty strong, being able to piggyback Rin like that.


You can't see it in that picture, but he had traced Herc's axe-sword, and he is touching it with his feet, tracing Herc's strength. So of course he is pretty strong.

Neir
March 23rd, 2011, 05:47 PM
Naw, for Nine Lives Bladeworks, the GARm reproduces the strength required to wield the weapon, as well as the skill to use it.

But yeah, Shirou's in fantastic shape.

food
March 23rd, 2011, 05:56 PM
In terms of knowledge, strength, and skills, HF Shirou is miles ahead the other two.

HF Shirou best caters those of us who enjoy Shonen stuff. I mean, Shirou really tore shit down in HF more so than any other routes.

Neir
March 23rd, 2011, 05:58 PM
Well, yeah, he has a Heroic Spirit's arm grafted onto him, of course he'll be badass.

food
March 23rd, 2011, 06:02 PM
It was a lot more badass when I first read it, because I expected him to fight other Masters with it, since he sucked as a magus.

I didn't expect him to fight Sabre and Berserker with it, which was why Nine Bullet Revolver made me go "HOLY SHIT DID HE JUST DO THAT!?".

Theocrass
March 23rd, 2011, 06:03 PM
Shota-Shirou is best. *Nods*

Neir
March 23rd, 2011, 06:05 PM
It was a lot more badass when I first read it, because I expected him to fight other Masters with it, since he sucked as a magus.

I didn't expect him to fight Sabre and Berserker with it, which was why Nine Bullet Revolver made me go "HOLY SHIT DID HE JUST DO THAT!?".

I think everyone said that when he did it. It was fucking amazing. Hell, even before he did it, just when he stood up to face Berserker was awesome.

eddyak
March 23rd, 2011, 06:19 PM
The moment he went "Just wait a sec, Ilya, I'll defeat him", I was like "HOLY FUCK WHAT HAVE I DONE, I'VE GIVEN SHIROU YET ANOTHER DEAD END"

And then he pulled off the shroud, and EPIC occurred.

willyvereb
March 23rd, 2011, 06:26 PM
http://media.animevice.com/uploads/0/5934/149831-4a525b3c122d4cf66856c5e58e42bc26_super.jpg
THE BEST KIND OF SHIROU, NO OBJECTIONS!

food
March 23rd, 2011, 06:40 PM
The moment he went "Just wait a sec, Ilya, I'll defeat him", I was like "HOLY FUCK WHAT HAVE I DONE, I'VE GIVEN SHIROU YET ANOTHER DEAD END"

And then he pulled off the shroud, and EPIC occurred.

Haha ya.

"Aw shit DEAD END and I need to reload again" definitely came to mind.

Keyne
March 23rd, 2011, 06:43 PM
My thoughts were around: "What the fuck? '_' " and then I thought "Ah, Archer's arm. Pfeh. -C-"

Kotonoha
March 23rd, 2011, 07:05 PM
Shota-Shirou is best. *Nods*

This man speaks truth.

Optimus
March 23rd, 2011, 07:11 PM
Nine Bullet Revolver Shirou was just... Epic. When he faced off Berseker completely alone, I couldn't help but admire Shirou.
Shirou is pretty much himself epic enough to my tastes in all the routes, but I think it's in Heaven's Feel when he gives it all he's got.

willyvereb
March 23rd, 2011, 07:14 PM
Was I the only one who thought Shirou was truly awesome in his no holds bared beatdown with Kotomine.
His flashback powerup felt epic instead of the usual cliche.
"KOTOMINE... KIREIIIII!!!"

Optimus
March 23rd, 2011, 07:18 PM
Not really, like I said all Shirous have their epic moments. Fate!Shirou has his barehanded fight aganist Kotomine Kirei. Unlimited Blade Works has the fight aganist Archer and the UBW activation moment, which is in itself pretty epic. And Heaven's Feel finale, which is all epic.

ratstsrub
March 23rd, 2011, 07:20 PM
I'm sorry UBW, Fate, I'm real happy for you and I'm gonna let you finish, but HF Shirou had the most epic scenes of all game.

All game.

Kotonoha
March 23rd, 2011, 07:27 PM
I'd say Fate and UBW Shirou are more "epic" though, since their goal was to save FUCKING EVERYONE.

Anyone can save their girlfriend, but are you a bad enough dude to save everyone?

Ergast
March 23rd, 2011, 07:37 PM
You all are deluding yourselves with those crying eyes of you

This is clearly the greatest Shirou:

http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/6829/shirouko.jpg

...

What? It has boobies ^^

Keyne
March 23rd, 2011, 07:38 PM
I see black space. '_'

Mike1984
March 23rd, 2011, 07:38 PM
I'd say Fate and UBW Shirou are more "epic" though, since their goal was to save FUCKING EVERYONE.

Anyone can save their girlfriend, but are you a bad enough dude to save everyone?

If they'd succeeded they would be more epic, yes, but they didn't (Sakura, the people in the basement of the church, Ilya in UBW, Saber in Fate). In fact, HF Shirou probably saved more people than they did....

Keyne
March 23rd, 2011, 07:40 PM
If they'd succeeded they would be more epic, yes, but they didn't (Sakura, the people in the basement of the church, Ilya in UBW, Saber in Fate). In fact, HF Shirou probably saved more people than they did....

Count Saber out. She was saved, even if she couldn't stay. Also, count Saber Alter in, and all those people eaten by the Shadow.

Ergast
March 23rd, 2011, 07:41 PM
I know, I know, I was uploading it in my imageshack...

Geez, you don't give time to fix things...

Keyne
March 23rd, 2011, 07:41 PM
I know, I know, I was uploading it in my imageshack...

Geez, you don't give time to fix things...

Certainly, it has boobies. '_'

food
March 23rd, 2011, 07:42 PM
Fate Shirou really needed something to bring him "down to Earth and down to reality", and I think the whole ordeal in HF really did the trick.

Fate Shirou knew what Kiritsugu wanted and cherished, but HF Shirou really knew what he wanted and cherished.

Keyne
March 23rd, 2011, 07:45 PM
Fate Shirou's thinking was "If I can't even make one girl smile, I'm not worth of the title of a superhero.". And it didn't stop with just a smile.

food
March 23rd, 2011, 07:47 PM
The only impression I get from Fate Shirou is "If I can't make sure every girl stays in the kitchen, I am not worthy of the title of a superhero".

Keyne
March 23rd, 2011, 07:48 PM
The only impression I get from Fate Shirou is "If I can't make sure every girl stays in the kitchen, I am not worthy of the title of a superhero".

Girls? In his kitchen? NEVAR!! Except that purple one, she's a good Igor.

food
March 23rd, 2011, 07:49 PM
What about all the "girls shouldn't be swinging swords and fighting, girls should be fixin' me sammiches".

Keyne
March 23rd, 2011, 07:51 PM
What about all the "girls shouldn't be swinging swords and fighting, girls should be fixin' me sammiches".

Like a true man. *smokes a cigarette* Sakura's always making him sammiches. He got used to it.

Mike1984
March 23rd, 2011, 08:06 PM
Count Saber out. She was saved, even if she couldn't stay. Also, count Saber Alter in, and all those people eaten by the Shadow.

Yeah, but people who weren't in danger in the first place don't count as being "saved", and the danger was greater in HF and, thus, he saved more people by preventing it :p


Fate Shirou really needed something to bring him "down to Earth and down to reality", and I think the whole ordeal in HF really did the trick.

Fate Shirou knew what Kiritsugu wanted and cherished, but HF Shirou really knew what he wanted and cherished.

Exactly.


Fate Shirou's thinking was "If I can't even make one girl smile, I'm not worth of the title of a superhero.". And it didn't stop with just a smile.

Except that you could just as easily apply that exact thinking to HF Shirou. After all, what kind of superhero abandons those who love him when they're most in need of his help?


What about all the "girls shouldn't be swinging swords and fighting, girls should be fixin' me sammiches".

Well, in Shirou's case it's "girls shouldn't be swinging swords, fighting or fixin' me sammiches"....

Like Keyne said, Sakura is the only person allowed in his kitchen, and even then it's a bit of a battle for her to get there....

Keyne
March 23rd, 2011, 08:08 PM
Except that you could just as easily apply that exact thinking to HF Shirou. After all, what kind of superhero abandons those who love him when they're most in need of his help?
Fate and HF - two sides of one coin. Not exactly black and white.

Yeah, but people who weren't in danger in the first place don't count as being "saved", and the danger was greater in HF and, thus, he saved more people by preventing it
And once he knew who was standing behind it, he did nothing, condemning people to death.

Hyarion
March 23rd, 2011, 08:17 PM
If they'd succeeded they would be more epic, yes, but they didn't (Sakura, the people in the basement of the church, Ilya in UBW, Saber in Fate). In fact, HF Shirou probably saved more people than they did....

Last Episode. (in fact I'm pretty sure it's because it's so easy to make assumptions like this about Fate Shirou that Nasu made Last Episode)

Seriously, don't take Fate Shirou lightly. Dude's capable of earning a spot in Avalon.

Keyne
March 23rd, 2011, 08:20 PM
Last Episode. (in fact I'm pretty sure it's because it's so easy to make assumptions like this about Fate Shirou that Nasu made Last Episode)

Seriously, don't take Fate Shirou lightly. Dude's capable of earning a spot in Avalon.

inb4 Mike: But he didn't save Sakura. What's the point of him even being there?

RacingeR
March 23rd, 2011, 09:06 PM
inb4 Mike: But he didn't save Sakura. What's the point of him even being there?

I don't think anyone knows if he saved Sakura or not...

Keyne
March 23rd, 2011, 09:11 PM
I don't think anyone knows if he saved Sakura or not...

Tell that to him.

Mike1984
March 23rd, 2011, 09:29 PM
Fate and HF - two sides of one coin. Not exactly black and white.

Perhaps. It's the same person, after all, and for all that everyone says "Shirou threw away his ideals in HF", truthfully I don't think he did, at least not initially. He just focussed on a different aspect of them (saving individual people rather than merely reducing the number of casualties).


And once he knew who was standing behind it, he did nothing, condemning people to death.

Who?

Name one person (excluding Shinji, Zouken and Kotomine, who fucking well deserve it) who died as a result of Shirou not acting once he knew who the shadow was?


inb4 Mike: But he didn't save Sakura. What's the point of him even being there?

Well, that was something like my point, actually.

How the fuck can he call himself a superhero when one of his best friends was suffering for years and he never did anything to help her? And, he most definitely can't claim to have saved "everyone". Hell, even if he did save Sakura, he still can't claim that, because there are surely people who he failed to save somewhere down the line.

And, yes, you're right that we don't know if he did save her or not, because Nasu decided her fate wasn't worth bothering to even mention, either in Last Episode, the hot springs ending or in any of the Side Material books.

giorno
March 23rd, 2011, 09:29 PM
Fate Shirou really needed something to bring him "down to Earth and down to reality", and I think the whole ordeal in HF really did the trick.

Fate Shirou knew what Kiritsugu wanted and cherished, but HF Shirou really knew what he wanted and cherished.
Fate Shirou is a broken, human-shaped doll and doesn't even realize it, all while he's also trying to convince saber to abandon her wish

UBW Shirou is a broken, human-shaped doll but realizes it, and goes "screw that, I still want to be like this". Also, he's badass

HF Shirou on the other hand, is human. That's why i like him the most of the 3 routes

RacingeR
March 23rd, 2011, 09:30 PM
Tell that to him.

Oh yeah sorry, was distracted and didn't catch the meaning of your post.

I don't think that HF Shirou really saved more than the other two... really, he was the only one to abandon his ideal, and he wasn't searching to save everyone. The saving of the world was some kind of bonus to saving Sakura for him.

Mike1984
March 23rd, 2011, 09:45 PM
I don't think that HF Shirou really saved more than the other two... really, he was the only one to abandon his ideal, and he wasn't searching to save everyone. The saving of the world was some kind of bonus to saving Sakura for him.

I'm pretty sure that's entirely untrue. Whilst he wanted to save Sakura first and foremost, he also wanted to save as many other people as he could in addition to her. The deaths caused by the shadow hurt him just as much as the deaths of innocents in any other route did. He just didn't know how to stop it, and when he found out he understandably realised that he didn't want to murder his girlfriend in cold blood....

If Shirou had genuinely only cared about Sakura, he could have grabbed her, jumped on Pegasus with Rider and had at least a few more hours by her side, rather than just destroying the Grail.

Hermitfold
March 23rd, 2011, 09:48 PM
Eh, I'll answer this.

UBW Shirou's my favourite Shirou. Why?

Because even though he clearly understands that his wish will never come true, and he can clearly see what will happen to him if he continues down that road, he decides t do it anyway, because he thinks that it's worth it.

Now that is epic. Which is why he's my favourite.

DragoZERO
March 23rd, 2011, 09:50 PM
Eh, I'll answer this.

UBW Shirou's my favourite Shirou. Why?

Because even though he clearly understands that his wish will never come true, and he can clearly see what will happen to him if he continues down that road, he decides t do it anyway, because he thinks that it's worth it.

Now that is epic. Which is why he's my favourite.That's a very good argument. I never really thought of it that way. You could call him both foolish and brave for that.

eddyak
March 23rd, 2011, 09:52 PM
He just basically said to Archer "You've given me a million reasons why I shouldn't do it, and they make perfect sense. But in the end, I'm going to carry on anyway because FUCK YOU."

Hermitfold
March 23rd, 2011, 09:52 PM
That's a very good argument. I never really thought of it that way. You could call him both foolish and brave for that.

Yup. It's undoubtedly stupid, but the pinnacle of bravery.

Choosing such a hard path like that and trying to get everything you desire no matter what is kind of struggle I like to see.

Keyne
March 23rd, 2011, 09:52 PM
I'm pretty sure that's entirely untrue. Whilst he wanted to save Sakura first and foremost, he also wanted to save as many other people as he could in addition to her. The deaths caused by the shadow hurt him just as much as the deaths of innocents in any other route did. He just didn't know how to stop it, and when he found out he understandably realised that he didn't want to murder his girlfriend in cold blood....

If Shirou had genuinely only cared about Sakura, he could have grabbed her, jumped on Pegasus with Rider and had at least a few more hours by her side, rather than just destroying the Grail.

What happened to "Get lost! Sakura can't be happy if you're around!"?

Mike1984
March 23rd, 2011, 10:10 PM
What happened to "Get lost! Sakura can't be happy if you're around!"?

Yeah, but why can't she? Surely she'd be happier with Shirou around, right? Even if it was only for a few hours, so she could say "goodbye". Even just that small amount of time to talk to him and thank him could have made all the difference in the Normal End.

Shirou clearly does still care about other people in HF. He wants to save Sakura first, yes, but he isn't going to just let other innocents die. Hell, he proves that with Ilya.

Hyarion
March 23rd, 2011, 10:41 PM
Fate Shirou is a broken, human-shaped doll and doesn't even realize it, all while he's also trying to convince saber to abandon her wish

UBW Shirou is a broken, human-shaped doll but realizes it, and goes "screw that, I still want to be like this". Also, he's badass

HF Shirou on the other hand, is human. That's why i like him the most of the 3 routes

So, his humanity magically appeared out of nowhere when he decided to abandon his ideals?

No, seriously, don't you think what you're saying has pretty bad implications for HF Shirou? You know, like an already broken guy who lost the one thing he lived for and just happened to cling onto something more accepted as "human" to replace it?

Keyne
March 24th, 2011, 05:27 AM
Shirou clearly does still care about other people in HF. He wants to save Sakura first, yes, but he isn't going to just let other innocents die. Hell, he proves that with Ilya.
At that time he hadn't had enough of a "mind" to think about other people. Only one thought drove him forward and kept from collapsing. Sakura. He was lucky that he kept Illya's name still in memory and could shout it to her face.

Mike1984
March 24th, 2011, 09:34 AM
Well, yeah, by that point that is perhaps true, but only because his mind is breaking down too much for him to be able to even comprehend the concept of "save everyone". He certainly didn't abandon that intention voluntarily. He may well have decided to put Sakura first, but he never decided "other people just don't matter".

Keyne
March 24th, 2011, 09:38 AM
Well, yeah, by that point that is perhaps true, but only because his mind is breaking down too much for him to be able to even comprehend the concept of "save everyone". He certainly didn't abandon that intention voluntarily. He may well have decided to put Sakura first, but he never decided "other people just don't matter".

I got the impression that from the moment he "set the time bomb" and his time became limited, he had no other thoughts. He became really desperate. Besides, Archer's UBW would not affect him so, if he still had the thoughts of saving everyone.

Mike1984
March 24th, 2011, 09:43 AM
I got the impression that from the moment he "set the time bomb" and his time became limited, he had no other thoughts. He became really desperate.

I don't think so. He quite clearly cared about other people. He is still Shirou, after all, he may well have decided to put Sakura first but that doesn't mean he's going to leave the rest of the world to burn. I mean, he was even intending on killing Sakura when he realised that she was the shadow. He just couldn't bring himself to do it, true, but the fact that he even tried means that he cared about others.


Besides, Archer's UBW would not affect him so, if he still had the thoughts of saving everyone.

Err, what?

Keyne
March 24th, 2011, 09:46 AM
I don't think so. He quite clearly cared about other people. He is still Shirou, after all, he may well have decided to put Sakura first but that doesn't mean he's going to leave the rest of the world to burn. I mean, he was even intending on killing Sakura when he realised that she was the shadow. He just couldn't bring himself to do it, true, but the fact that he even tried means that he cared about others.
Then what's stopping him from returning to being the hero of justice after HF?

Err, what?
The difference in ideals.

Mike1984
March 24th, 2011, 09:59 AM
Then what's stopping him from returning to being the hero of justice after HF?

The fact that a) no-one is in obvious danger and b) he's with Sakura.

There's a difference between wanting to save innocents from an imminent and local threat and going off around the world actively searching for people to save. HF Shirou would still do the first, but because he puts Sakura first he is no longer going to do the second. He values his life with her too much to spend his time searching for people to save, when he could instead spend it with her, making her happy and being happy himself.


The difference in ideals.

Again, what are you talking about? What "difference in ideals"?

Keyne
March 24th, 2011, 10:05 AM
Shirou stated that his internal world and Archer's UBW are incompatibile when they should be, because they're one person. The simple fact that he chose Sakura before everyone elsemade him findamentally different from Archer and his ideals, because the fundaments in Shirou's ideals changed for Sakura's sake.

Mike1984
March 24th, 2011, 10:23 AM
Shirou stated that his internal world and Archer's UBW are incompatibile when they should be, because they're one person. The simple fact that he chose Sakura before everyone elsemade him findamentally different from Archer and his ideals, because the fundaments in Shirou's ideals changed for Sakura's sake.

No, no he didn't.

Shirou said that he couldn't access Archer's UBW, yes, but he never said that it should have been compatible. Indeed, I would assume that UBW Shirou's would also be incompatible, because they look totally different, and their mindsets are also totally different. After all, Archer doesn't even have that ideal any more.

eddyak
March 24th, 2011, 10:34 AM
Anyone else think HF Shirou's RM would be Unlimited Cooking Scenes?

Shikieiki
March 24th, 2011, 10:59 AM
Anyone else think HF Shirou's RM would be Unlimited Cooking Scenes?

You're not alone.

giorno
March 24th, 2011, 11:15 AM
So, his humanity magically appeared out of nowhere when he decided to abandon his ideals?

No, seriously, don't you think what you're saying has pretty bad implications for HF Shirou? You know, like an already broken guy who lost the one thing he lived for and just happened to cling onto something more accepted as "human" to replace it?
His "humanity" reappeared because he found something more important than that ideal, something that "forced" him to become 'human' again. He's still a broken doll, only he's a broken doll that's slowly regaining his humanity, and already started to be more human-like, compared to the previous two routes

Ergast
March 24th, 2011, 02:43 PM
A few things about HF Shirou. IIRC, he already decided to accept sacrifices if he needed to do it to save Sakura. In fact, I think the exact sentece where something like "I'll put Sakura before anything, and I would save sakura even if I have to go against the whole world"

Also, he isn't more or less human than the other two Shirous. There isn't two other Shirous. There is just three different circunstances. UBW Shirou and Fate Shirou didn't need to revise their ideals to save their lovers, so they didn't. If, for example, Rin was a danger for the world in UBW, Shirou would end puting Rin before anything, and then, if anything, saving the rest of the world. In fact, if he was more concerned about the world than Rin, he wouldn't say Saber to go to help Rin, because it would be better for the world to destroy Gil here and now, and then destroy the grail and if they can, save Rin.

Kotonoha
March 24th, 2011, 02:48 PM
His "humanity" reappeared because he found something more important than that ideal, something that "forced" him to become 'human' again. He's still a broken doll, only he's a broken doll that's slowly regaining his humanity, and already started to be more human-like, compared to the previous two routes

So, HF Shirou is a doll that has been repainted to look more lifelike from the outside?

Hermitfold
March 24th, 2011, 03:07 PM
That's..deep, somehow.

As expected from Koto.

Altima of the Gates
March 24th, 2011, 07:04 PM
Also, he isn't more or less human than the other two Shirous. There isn't two other Shirous. There is just three different circumstances.

Exactly, there were totally different circumstances at work for all three, and he did try his damndest in each incarnation.

giorno
March 24th, 2011, 08:26 PM
So, HF Shirou is a doll that has been repainted to look more lifelike from the outside?

in a way, yes. But it's also starting to become like that, too

ttestagr
March 24th, 2011, 08:30 PM
A few things about HF Shirou. IIRC, he already decided to accept sacrifices if he needed to do it to save Sakura. In fact, I think the exact sentece where something like "I'll put Sakura before anything, and I would save sakura even if I have to go against the whole world"

Also, he isn't more or less human than the other two Shirous. There isn't two other Shirous. There is just three different circunstances. UBW Shirou and Fate Shirou didn't need to revise their ideals to save their lovers, so they didn't. If, for example, Rin was a danger for the world in UBW, Shirou would end puting Rin before anything, and then, if anything, saving the rest of the world. In fact, if he was more concerned about the world than Rin, he wouldn't say Saber to go to help Rin, because it would be better for the world to destroy Gil here and now, and then destroy the grail and if they can, save Rin.

To be fair, Shirou and Saber both decided to put the world ahead of their relationship to go fight a battle that had poor odds of them winning. It was a mutual decision that had no happy endings visible for them, and they both chose to do it. That decision would also be why Fate-Shirou has the best chances to end up all bitter like Archer, though there is also Last Episode.

It never came up with Rin though, so we don't know how a similar situation would pan out involving them.

Mike1984
March 24th, 2011, 08:50 PM
Well, Fate Shirou didn't have any real choice there, because having the world end does tend to rather put a crimp in your relationship, and besides Gil was hardly going to just forget about Saber, was he?

ttestagr
March 24th, 2011, 08:58 PM
"Saber."
I stop and turn back to Saber.
Saber is the same always.
A tense stare with a composed expression.

The moment I see it, all kinds of temptation attack me.
Like, let's run away.
Like, if I don't want to lose her, I can go back.
She would accompany me if I wished.

""
My determination wavers.
That temptation rises in my throat.
But I stop it.
"Let's go. This will be our last battle."
I declare that as a Master just as I always have.

Saber nods silently.
Her eyes are strong-willed as always.
""
So, I won't have any regrets.
As she believes in me.
I too will believe that my choice is correct.

We start for the mountain gate.
We head into the battle with no return.

No, Shirou still had doubts and regret all the way up to that final decision. It makes the final battle all the more poignant.

Mike1984
March 24th, 2011, 09:09 PM
Well, of course he did, he's only human. But, even so, he still didn't really have any choice there, for the reasons that I stated.

Plus, his situation is different from HF Shirou's. HF Shirou had the possibility of saving both the world and Sakura, and chose to take it. Fate Shirou was explicitly given the choice between being with Saber and saving the world (or, at least, Fuyuki), and he would never have forgiven himself if he'd chosen to abandon the people of Fuyuki to their fate (and, indeed, nor would Saber). Plus, if they had run away, what then? Saber would have vanished in a few days in any case, due to losing her prana supply when the war ended.

ttestagr
March 24th, 2011, 09:19 PM
Nah, if he ran away he could have saved Saber. He mentions that they might find a way, and a way does exist since Rin is alive and Shirou still has his command spell. She was at optimum condition before that fight, she would have lasted long enough to get Rin's help in support. It would have been a betrayal of their ideals and themselves though, ultimately enough so that the option to run isn't even given.

Ah, if only, if only. His first two command seals could have been avoided, and then who knows what would have happened.

Mike1984
March 24th, 2011, 09:23 PM
Well, the option to "run" wouldn't make sense as a Bad End, though, because Shirou would still be fine, hence why it wasn't included, even though equally silly Bad End options were allowed (the "I give up" option in HF is a prime example).

ttestagr
March 24th, 2011, 09:39 PM
Even Fate has silly Bad Ends. Saber decapitating Shirou unconsciously for example. That one was done very tongue in cheek, instead of seriously. And it could have been pulled off very seriously indeed.

Keyne
March 25th, 2011, 04:12 AM
To be fair, Shirou and Saber both decided to put the world ahead of their relationship to go fight a battle that had poor odds of them winning. It was a mutual decision that had no happy endings visible for them, and they both chose to do it. That decision would also be why Fate-Shirou has the best chances to end up all bitter like Archer, though there is also Last Episode.
And I thought they did it because Shirou taught Saber to move on with her life and that they were resolved that there would be a parting, since (that time) without the Grail, the Servants can't last in this world. Because Shirou knew that there would be a parting, and he chose to let her go, because he didn't want to break the trust between them and because everything he had said to her would become pointless. You see... Fate is all about their relationship, and not saving the world. It's secondary importance.

Fate - Day 14: Girl's yell (http://fsn.seorinwastaken.com/archive/094.html)

Counterguardian
March 25th, 2011, 04:31 AM
Yeeaah. That bit kind of trips me up a bit.

Saber basically screwed her life over by putting Britain ahead of her happiness, so I still don't see the logic behind Shirou telling her to get her head out of her scabbard and then busting up the Grail as opposed to their being happy together.

Keyne
March 25th, 2011, 04:39 AM
Given the choice, she rejected the Grail (and he didn't want it from the start). Shirou was more important to her. After learning what it was, desroying it was the only logical solution. Making a wish would not only cause the Grail to blow up the entire mountain and more, but also take Illya's life as the vessel. Shirou came there to save her first and then destroy the Grail. Of course he didn't want her to leave, but seeing how she wants to complete her life, he let her go. That was what they had decided together.

Anyway, this is a discussion about Shirou, not Saber. Carry on.

Counterguardian
March 25th, 2011, 05:08 AM
You discuss Shirou, Saber has to come into the equation eventually.

Keyne
March 25th, 2011, 05:09 AM
You discuss Shirou, Saber has to come into the equation eventually.

Can't argue with that.

Altima of the Gates
March 25th, 2011, 08:33 AM
You discuss Shirou, Saber has to come into the equation eventually.

Well that pertains to a lot of people. After all, what makes a character? His bonds with others, and how he is shaped by them. And for a person who loves people like Shirou, those bonds are even more important.

Keyne
March 25th, 2011, 08:46 AM
Well that pertains to a lot of people. After all, what makes a character? His bonds with others, and how he is shaped by them. And for a person who loves people like Shirou, those bonds are even more important.

;~; I-I'm so sorry. I was deluded and unaware when I wrote that silly line. I'm repenting right now. I know I am at fault. Please, forgive this small fool. *bows*

Mike1984
March 25th, 2011, 09:31 AM
Well that pertains to a lot of people. After all, what makes a character? His bonds with others, and how he is shaped by them. And for a person who loves people like Shirou, those bonds are even more important.

Exactly.

You can't discuss Shirou without mentioning the people who touched and even changed him and, whilst it's rather unusual that it became a Saber discussion rather than a Sakura one, the argument I always make when Sakura comes up in such discussions is every bit as valid when applied to her.

TypeWannabe
March 25th, 2011, 03:14 PM
whilst it's rather unusual that it became a Saber discussion rather than a Sakura one

Why? Saber has every bit to do with Shirou, considering she's his Servant and they've got a close bond.

Hermitfold
March 25th, 2011, 03:49 PM
It's unusual because it didn't turn into a Sakura discussion

RacingeR
March 25th, 2011, 03:50 PM
And now it is turning into a discussion of how unusual it is that it didn't become a Sakura discussion.

Mazyrian
March 25th, 2011, 04:54 PM
Sakura hijacks threads even in the meta-level

qsurf
August 19th, 2011, 06:16 PM
Woo, here comes the necro...just hope I'll escape with my answers before the Incineration begins.

I was reading some stuff on Concepts (just Concepts, I'm weird like that) and something clicked as I was reminded of one of Rin's lines and my rather blase reply to that:


Rin: "Is it true that the things you projected are still in your shed?"

Shirou: "Yeah. Things don't normally go away unless you break them. Right?"
...Shirou merely ignores established Laws and replaces them with his own.


Now, he has/will have a Reality Marble, which means on some level, he honestly can rewrite Reality, usually on a large scale, but this begs a few questions:
1) Can he do that on a smaller scale (Beyond simple reinforcing)?
2) As EMIYA, he was seen rewriting the History of several Noble Phantasms (swords into arrows), can he apply the same skill to mundane objects?
3) As Conceptual Weapons, what is important to a Noble Phantasm? The Concept from which their legends arise (Sword of Promised Victory, Reversed Causality) or the actual physical forms themselves?
4) Basically? Shirou seems to have 3 levels to his power, 1) Reinforcement (Perfecting an object), 2) Projecting (Creating an object), 3) Tracing (Recreating an object). Could these levels be applied to Concepts themselves? Eg: 1) Reinforcement (Perfecting sneakers to give him more freedom from Physics), 2) Projecting (Creating an aura around himself for more freedom from physics), 3) Tracing (Recreating something similar to the Talaria Sandals)

What say thee?

Keyne
August 19th, 2011, 06:24 PM
Why? -__-

Tobias
August 19th, 2011, 06:33 PM
May I recommend the questions thread?

Mcjon01
August 19th, 2011, 07:35 PM
Reality Marbles aren't really the same thing as rewriting reality, not all Noble Phantasms are conceptual weapons, the "Sword of Promised Victory" isn't a concept it's a title, and Tracing is a mental process not a spell -- you're probably thinking of Alteration, which is the third super-basic spell grouped in with Reinforcement and Projection.

qsurf
August 20th, 2011, 04:24 AM
Why? -__-
It was an odd thought I've for a few weeks now, I needed to know.


May I recommend the questions thread?
My apologies, I thought since this specifically dealt with Shirou and his capabilities, it would be better suited here.


Reality Marbles aren't really the same thing as rewriting reality, not all Noble Phantasms are conceptual weapons, the "Sword of Promised Victory" isn't a concept it's a title, and Tracing is a mental process not a spell -- you're probably thinking of Alteration, which is the third super-basic spell grouped in with Reinforcement and Projection.
Hmm, I see...

AstralSword
August 26th, 2011, 02:14 PM
What if Shirou went all perv and lolicon and started going out with Illya? Now this would be different. Saber and Berserker fighting together would be overkill.

Besides, we would see this, eventually:

Shirou: "People die if they are killed."
Heracles: "I don't."

Mcjon01
August 26th, 2011, 04:51 PM
What if Shirou went all perv and lolicon and started going out with Illya?

he'd turn into Archer lol

Tobias
August 26th, 2011, 04:58 PM
What if Shirou went all perv and lolicon and started going out with Illya? Now this would be different. Saber and Berserker fighting together would be overkill.

Besides, we would see this, eventually:

Shirou: "People die if they are killed."
Heracles: "I don't."

that was what happened to archer.

I3uster
August 26th, 2011, 05:02 PM
FAN THEORY

food
August 26th, 2011, 05:58 PM
Woo, here comes the necro...just hope I'll escape with my answers before the Incineration begins.

I was reading some stuff on Concepts (just Concepts, I'm weird like that) and something clicked as I was reminded of one of Rin's lines and my rather blase reply to that:


Now, he has/will have a Reality Marble, which means on some level, he honestly can rewrite Reality, usually on a large scale, but this begs a few questions:
1) Can he do that on a smaller scale (Beyond simple reinforcing)?
2) As EMIYA, he was seen rewriting the History of several Noble Phantasms (swords into arrows), can he apply the same skill to mundane objects?
3) As Conceptual Weapons, what is important to a Noble Phantasm? The Concept from which their legends arise (Sword of Promised Victory, Reversed Causality) or the actual physical forms themselves?
4) Basically? Shirou seems to have 3 levels to his power, 1) Reinforcement (Perfecting an object), 2) Projecting (Creating an object), 3) Tracing (Recreating an object). Could these levels be applied to Concepts themselves? Eg: 1) Reinforcement (Perfecting sneakers to give him more freedom from Physics), 2) Projecting (Creating an aura around himself for more freedom from physics), 3) Tracing (Recreating something similar to the Talaria Sandals)

What say thee?

1) There's that UBW manifesting inside Shirou in an effort of protecting himself from further assault.
2) Swords into arrows is not really rewriting the History of the Noble Phantasm, it is mostly a physical alteration. If you alter the History of a Noble Phantasm, it is then not really a Noble Phantasm anymore. The definition of Noble Phantasm is to reenact a legendary/historical feat.
3) The physical form is really the medium, a touch-stone for the hero to recreate the legendary feat. This is why sometimes you have two Noble Phantasms with the same physical item (like Gae Bolg).
4) Shirou really has one power, it is UBW. All the things Shirou did in the story of Fate are applications of UBW. In order to reinforce, he analyze the internal structure of an item first via UBW. Tracing and projecting are the same thing for Shriou. Shirou's "tracing" is a form of projection with the augmentation of UBW.

A example is like Tower Defence. You can get more powerful towers, or you can upgrade your existing towers. If other power sorceries are better towers, then projection is the shittiest tower you can get. However, what happened to Shirou is that UBW upgraded this shitty tower so much, it becomes crazy good.

zlol365
August 26th, 2011, 11:59 PM
Fan theory:

-Based on CM3, if shirou can't project excalibur, then it must have been the feat of archer's arm when he projected excalibur in HF? After all, if we refer back to the first time archer used UBW in UBW, he mentioned to saber he could have traced a exact copy of excalibur, though not as perfect as the actual one, and perhaps not as much strength as the actual excalibur...

Counterguardian
August 27th, 2011, 12:13 AM
We've had a few arguments about this. I think most of us agreed that Archer was just bluffing.

zlol365
August 27th, 2011, 12:34 AM
We've had a few arguments about this. I think most of us agreed that Archer was just bluffing. Hmm... Though surely shirou could have traced excalibur in hf either due to:excalibur was tainted?Archer's arm...Just thought abt it. Cm3 kinda bugged me

Counterguardian
August 27th, 2011, 12:38 AM
Yeah it kind of bugs me too.

I just think Shirou just shot a beam out of his hand or something, there's a reason why it's the Normal end and not the True end. Nasu probably thought it completely ridiculous.

Hyarion
August 27th, 2011, 12:52 AM
CG.

Lord knows wreaking havoc is fun -- I still have to do a double-take when I see Keyne.

But that is just cruel.

Counterguardian
August 27th, 2011, 12:54 AM
I blame the 7th.

Kotonoha
August 27th, 2011, 12:57 AM
CG.

Lord knows wreaking havoc is fun -- I still have to do a double-take when I see Keyne.

But that is just cruel.

I like it!

Keyne
August 27th, 2011, 02:59 AM
What's this about me? ^.^

Tobias
August 27th, 2011, 06:39 AM
CM3 specifically mentions archer himself can't project Excalibur.

Keyne
August 27th, 2011, 06:44 AM
Guess what's left.

http://sadpanda.us/images/629556-923NZHA.png

Mcjon01
August 27th, 2011, 11:11 AM
I don't know, what is that? Looks like Gram, except somebody went all arts and crafts on it with jewels and gold and engravings. Probably messed up the balance and weight in the process.

food
August 27th, 2011, 11:13 AM
The design is not for combat, but for maximum stuck-in-stone-ness.

Keyne
August 27th, 2011, 11:15 AM
The design is not for combat, but for maximum stuck-in-stone-ness.
And killing Berserkers 7 times in a row.

Arashi_Leonhart
August 27th, 2011, 11:15 AM
The design is not for combat, but for maximum stuck-in-stone-ness.

No wonder it skewered Berserker so well!

Mike1984
August 27th, 2011, 11:18 AM
Yeah it kind of bugs me too.

I just think Shirou just shot a beam out of his hand or something, there's a reason why it's the Normal end and not the True end. Nasu probably thought it completely ridiculous.

Lol, what?

You seriously think that it's more likely that Nasu made it so that Shirou shot a beam out of his hand than it is that he just retconned the fact that Shirou could trace Excalibur later because he wanted to make Saber fans happy...?


Guess what's left.

http://sadpanda.us/images/629556-923NZHA.png

Caliburn is not Excalibur. Shirou would know if he'd traced it by accident. Plus, he never actually sees it.

Mcjon01
August 27th, 2011, 11:21 AM
And killing Berserkers 7 times in a row.

Maybe that's the real reason Caliburn was able to kill Herc seven times: his grey, stone-like skin combined with his solid, rock-hard physique fooled Caliburn into thinking it was truly being shoved back into a stone, unlocking its full potential.


You seriously think that it's more likely that Nasu made it so that Shirou shot a beam out of his hand than it is that he just retconned the fact that Shirou could trace Excalibur later because he wanted to make Saber fans happy...?

Psst. Mike. Saber fans never gave two shits about whether or not Shirou/Archer can trace Excalibur. If Nasu pulled this retcon out of his ass, then he did it for his own, inscrutable reasons that only make sense in his crazy 'shroom head.

TypeWannabe
August 27th, 2011, 11:23 AM
I'm probably way off on this, but Nasu also says that he started seeing specifically Excalibur in his dreams a month before the Grail War. Why would he dream of a sword he can't project, and would make him freeze up and fry his brain just looking at it?

Keyne
August 27th, 2011, 11:31 AM
I'm probably way off on this, but Nasu also says that he started seeing specifically Excalibur in his dreams a month before the Grail War. Why would he dream of a sword he can't project, and would make him freeze up and fry his brain just looking at it?
He started seeing his "second half" if you know what I mean.

terraablaze
August 27th, 2011, 11:32 AM
I still like my; Shirou tried to project it, failed, and Illya came along and sealed the Grail like she does in True but was too late to save him or something theory.

food
August 27th, 2011, 11:33 AM
I'm probably way off on this, but Nasu also says that he started seeing specifically Excalibur in his dreams a month before the Grail War. Why would he dream of a sword he can't project, and would make him freeze up and fry his brain just looking at it?

That's why it is all hazy and blurry.
It's there because Avalon is activated.

TypeWannabe
August 27th, 2011, 11:33 AM
Oh, right. Avalon. Yeah, makes sense. I will still never believe that Shirou can't trace Excalibur, and there ain't no argument that's going to sway that opinion, unless Nasu releases a sequel game that specifically says in bold letters he can't. But I can at least see the arguments against it.

Keyne
August 27th, 2011, 11:33 AM
I'm probably way off on this, but Nasu also says that he started seeing specifically Excalibur in his dreams a month before the Grail War. Why would he dream of a sword he can't project, and would make him freeze up and fry his brain just looking at it?
On a sidenote, he kept seeing it even after the war.

Mike1984
August 27th, 2011, 11:34 AM
I still like my; Shirou tried to project it, failed, and Illya came along and sealed the Grail like she does in True but was too late to save him or something theory.

Except that we explicitly see a blast of light coming from the sword.

zlol365
August 27th, 2011, 11:34 AM
CM3 specifically mentions archer himself can't project Excalibur.

Ah well. Now i'm wondering how did shirou trace excalibur in HF?
was it because excalibur was so tainted badly by angra such that it lost its 'divine concept' status and became a demonic sword?

Though it still fried shirou's brain.

Arashi_Leonhart
August 27th, 2011, 11:36 AM
He traced a sword made of Neco-Arc, who then shoots the Grail a unisex beam.

food
August 27th, 2011, 11:37 AM
Except that we explicitly see a blast of light coming from the sword.
Well, if you go back to my donkey and horse analogy.

A donkey also have a long face and 4-hooves.

zlol365
August 27th, 2011, 11:38 AM
Man.... Nasu be the ultimate troll.

So can we assume excalibur got degraded due to corruption?

Keyne
August 27th, 2011, 11:38 AM
We see a beam of light, yes, but did the text say he charged the sword? He just swang it.

Man.... Nasu be the ultimate troll.

So can we assume excalibur got degraded due to corruption?
Not possible, it held both elements: good and evil, due to its makers - Vivian and Morgan.

food
August 27th, 2011, 11:38 AM
No.

Excalibur is colourless and alignment neutral.

terraablaze
August 27th, 2011, 11:38 AM
The sword explodes in his face in response to his suck.

zlol365
August 27th, 2011, 11:40 AM
Man.....
either way, the theory that shirou traced excalibur in HF due to archer's arm is out.
Hopefully the next CM explains it...
@[email protected]

TypeWannabe
August 27th, 2011, 11:44 AM
No.

Excalibur is colourless and alignment neutral.

...sort of. The game says that Excalibur can change based on it's user's alignment.

food
August 27th, 2011, 11:47 AM
That's what I meant, like Gram/Balmung, what you funnel into it decides if it is holy or demonic.

zlol365
August 27th, 2011, 11:50 AM
hmmm... i guess we better leave the debate about the excalibur being traced in HF till sometime?
or maybe shirou didn't trace a real excalibur?

TypeWannabe
August 27th, 2011, 11:53 AM
Dude, I'm pretty sure you dredged this thread back up from the abyss of time for this. We're either doing this shit, or you are going to let this thread sink.

EDIT: Nevermind, that was Astral. My point still stands however.

zlol365
August 27th, 2011, 11:54 AM
Dude, I'm pretty sure you dredged this thread back up from the abyss of time for this. We're either doing this shit, or you are going to let this thread sink.

Just thinking. ^^ll
Guess we'll continue doing it then. ^^ll

Then in this case, how about the idea shirou never traced excalibur in HF but a imitation that is not even close to it?

Keyne
August 27th, 2011, 12:09 PM
You guys keep talking useless stuff when you should be discussing about what really matters.

For nothing.. and I mean NOTHING in this fucking, good-for-nothing world is better..

http://sadpanda.us/images/629927-LQ2XMBY.jpg

THAN A GOOD, FUCKING PAWNCH!!

http://sadpanda.us/images/629931-YWM7I05.jpg

BAM!!

[/notsrs]

:p

Mike1984
August 27th, 2011, 12:29 PM
Well, if you go back to my donkey and horse analogy.

A donkey also have a long face and 4-hooves.

Well, he traced something that he (who knows exactly what he's tracing) thought was Excalibur and then fired off what looked like an Excaliblast. I find it extremely hard to believe that, despite the fact that Shirou traces individual weapons (and, thus, could not possibly have traced the "wrong one"), and that nothing else could have caused such a blast, he actually didn't trace it at all.

Keyne
August 27th, 2011, 12:32 PM
I find it hard to belive that with a completely broken mind and miliseconds from brain death, he could trace exactly what he wanted. He didn't even know the name of the thing he was holding.

Tobias
August 27th, 2011, 12:32 PM
shirou's brain was so fried he didnt know his own name

but thats not how tracing works

we have actually seen him trace shit that wasnt the same as what he analyzed

we have seen him intentionally change something, he has never accidentally traced something else!

doesnt mean he couldnt/wouldnt

thats rubbish.


the next page or so shrunk down for your convenience.



EDIT: HAH! and keyne fills the first spot.

Keyne
August 27th, 2011, 12:35 PM
Hurrrrrrrrr :3

zlol365
August 27th, 2011, 12:45 PM
Hmmm... I doubt shirou actually traced a excalibur like Tobias and keyne said...

I think he made a very inferior copy that could only produce a small fragment of the power....
and still blew his mind away to bits.

Mike1984
August 27th, 2011, 01:54 PM
I find it hard to belive that with a completely broken mind and miliseconds from brain death, he could trace exactly what he wanted. He didn't even know the name of the thing he was holding.

But, UBW does not work in that way. Shirou doesn't "categorise" swords into groups (except perhaps by ancestry, and Excalibur has no "ancestor"), so it's not possible for him to attempt to trace one and come up with something entirely different.

Tobias
August 27th, 2011, 01:55 PM
But, UBW does not work in that way. Shirou doesn't "categorise" swords into groups (except perhaps by ancestry, and Excalibur has no "ancestor"), so it's not possible for him to attempt to trace one and come up with something entirely different.


but thats not how tracing works

eh? eh?

I3uster
August 27th, 2011, 02:00 PM
Tobias, can I order your service? It saves a lot of time.

Mike1984
August 27th, 2011, 02:01 PM
Well, yeah, the fact that you correctly summarised my argument doesn't stop me describing it in more detail....

I3uster
August 27th, 2011, 02:02 PM
It's a forum, nobody can stop you from anything. What tobias can do is saving time.

Hyarion
August 27th, 2011, 02:09 PM
*bored of hearing this argument already*


it's not possible for him to attempt to trace one and come up with something entirely different.

Okay, alright. Prove that and we'll call it a day, yeah?

TypeWannabe
August 27th, 2011, 03:22 PM
Holy shit tobias, you are like that woman in KnK who can see the future

Mike1984
August 27th, 2011, 03:46 PM
Okay, alright. Prove that and we'll call it a day, yeah?

That's a Devil's proof, though. It's impossible to absolutely prove that he cannot do something like that, in the same way as it is impossible to prove absolutely that the Earth isn't going to spontaneously start spinning the other direction tomorrow.

However, it does not fit at all with how UBW works. Shirou understands weapons, not categories of weapons. He cannot pick one and trace something else.

food
August 27th, 2011, 03:51 PM
He projects by recreating each component in order.

If he messes up the "recreating origin" or "recreating history" part of Excalibur, BAM, you literally get something else entirely.

eddyak
August 27th, 2011, 06:00 PM
He projects by recreating each component in order.

If he messes up the "recreating origin" or "recreating history" part of Excalibur, BAM, you literally get something else entirely.
This.

Honestly, why do you keep banging your heads against a wall? Shirou traces version that doesn't include lol fairy forging process/some symbolic aspect that makes it Excalibur, thus, what he projects isn't excalibur. Like Archer said- he can't replicate it, but he can come close. But "close", for a sword of Excalibur's status, isn't anywhere near the blade itself, you can't call it Excalibur.

It's like making a mannequin, and calling it a person. Sure, it has two arms and two legs, and probably a head, but it's not a person.

Hyarion
August 27th, 2011, 06:18 PM
some symbolic aspect that makes it Excalibur

Symbolic nothing. It's made clear that Excalibur is literally crystallized "wishes of all mankind."

Shirou goes to read the blade and freezes up not because the materials don't register like in Ea's case, but because trying to comprehend that "material" is like staring into the sun.

Sherrinford
August 27th, 2011, 06:21 PM
trying to comprehend that "material" is like staring into the sun.

... "Oh, but Mama Shirou, that's where the fun is"

Keyne
August 27th, 2011, 06:28 PM
... "Oh, but Mama Shirou, that's where the fun is"
*maul'd*

Now, now, listen to Uncle Hyarion. He's a gentleman and a scholar.

eddyak
August 27th, 2011, 06:43 PM
Symbolic nothing. It's made clear that Excalibur is literally crystallized "wishes of all mankind."

Shirou goes to read the blade and freezes up not because the materials don't register like in Ea's case, but because trying to comprehend that "material" is like staring into the sun.
/shrug

Honestly, I don't give a shit what it is he can't copy, but he can't do at least one of the eight processes, and so it's not the same sword he's trying to reproduce. Simple as that.

[TRG]Vash
August 28th, 2011, 03:18 AM
The truth is, he tried to trace Excalibur and got the Fruit Bazooka of Crash Bandicoot and said "It's time for me to live up to my family name and face FULL LIFE CONSEQUENCES! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHxyZaZlaOs)" and after that, he did a backflip and became a zombie.http://www.gamepadmagazine.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/Crash-Bandicoot-3-Boxart.jpg

Tracer
August 30th, 2011, 03:51 PM
Blast of light, destroying the great grail.. I KNOW, ITS MUST BE GAE BOLG.

Come on guys, it's Excalibur. Shirou can trace any weapon unless its an alien swords like Ea.

Neir
August 30th, 2011, 03:54 PM
My understanding was that if he messed up on part of it, the whole thing just fucking fell apart, since he's no longer projecting something.

eddyak
August 30th, 2011, 03:59 PM
My understanding was that if he messed up on part of it, the whole thing just fucking fell apart, since he's no longer projecting something.
If the image falters, yeah. If it's illogical, like so: "Lol one side of the sword is straight, the other side is curved- wait, that doesn't work..." *sword vanishes*

If it's something like "This sword was made by fairies using... aw, who cares about the history?", it's not gonna vanish any time soon.

Altima of the Gates
August 30th, 2011, 04:02 PM
Honestly, with how mechanically he does this, I'd say during the process, "Unable to load DLL 'wishesofmankind.dll" : The specified module could not be found" came up, so it loaded an alternate application weapon.

Mcjon01
August 30th, 2011, 04:04 PM
Come on guys, it's Excalibur. Shirou can trace any weapon unless its an alien swords like Ea.Well, he can't now, so try to find a way to fanwank around it I guess.

Tracer
August 30th, 2011, 04:06 PM
Honestly, with how mechanically he does this, I'd say during the process, "Unable to load DLL 'wishesofmankind.dll" : The specified module could not be found" came up, so it loaded an alternate application weapon.
I'm pretty sure that wishofmankind.dll is a Gaia material.
Shirou can project wishofmakind.dll, discuss.

Arashi_Leonhart
August 30th, 2011, 04:08 PM
Literally, the post above you. It's canon, he couldn't trace Excalibur, figure out something else.

Keyne
August 30th, 2011, 04:09 PM
I'm pretty sure that wishofmankind.dll is a Gaia material.
Shirou can project wishofmakind.dll, discuss.
An abstract component? A Gaia material?

HOLY FUCK, THE EARTH IS MADE OF WISHFUL THINKING!!!

Tracer
August 30th, 2011, 04:09 PM
Literally, the post above you. It's canon, he couldn't trace Excalibur, figure out something else.
Its Nasu NP, Trolling the fandom.

Keyne
August 30th, 2011, 04:11 PM
Its Nasu NP, Trolling the fandom.
Send him an angry PM. Let him feel your WARTH!!

Tracer
August 30th, 2011, 04:15 PM
Send him an angry PM. Let him feel your WARTH!!
You won't escape.. my WRATH!!

Mcjon01
August 30th, 2011, 04:16 PM
Its Nasu NP, Trolling the fandom.Works well with his RM, a world that let's him goof off instead of writing stuff.

Arashi_Leonhart
August 30th, 2011, 04:17 PM
Every starving writer's dream...

Mcjon01
August 30th, 2011, 04:28 PM
I'm not joking, by the way. It's called Neverland Overdrive.

food
August 30th, 2011, 04:29 PM
I like Urobuchi Gen's reality marble better.

Arashi_Leonhart
August 30th, 2011, 04:32 PM
Magical Girls Run On Dis Pear?

Keyne
August 30th, 2011, 04:35 PM
Hey, guys, guys! What do you call an ejaculation for which you have to solemnly, sincerely apologise?

Grief Seeds.

Hahahahaha. Derp :B

Mcjon01
August 30th, 2011, 04:36 PM
^Basically. It's called Dead End Catharsis.

food
August 30th, 2011, 04:36 PM
Magical Girls Run On Dis Pear?

You wish.

It's called "Dead End Catharsis". It gives all characters bad luck, lol.

EDIT:
Why Catharsis? Lol.

Mcjon01
August 30th, 2011, 04:38 PM
Maybe that's the real reason Saber's LCK stat dropped in Zero. :p

TypeWannabe
August 30th, 2011, 04:40 PM
That doesn't explain Lancelot though...

terraablaze
August 30th, 2011, 05:18 PM
Were these Reality Marbles listed in a postface for one of the Fate/Zero novels? They sound familiar

edit: @food
catharsis comes from a Greek word that means dismemberment

Altima of the Gates
August 30th, 2011, 05:19 PM
I like Urobuchi Gen's reality marble better.

You do, but he doesn't.

Mike1984
August 30th, 2011, 06:25 PM
Honestly, with how mechanically he does this, I'd say during the process, "Unable to load DLL 'wishesofmankind.dll" : The specified module could not be found" came up, so it loaded an alternate application weapon.

I don't think Shirou has the ability to unintentionally substitute weapons without knowing....


Literally, the post above you. It's canon, he couldn't trace Excalibur, figure out something else.

No, Nasu retconned it in a book which is less canon than the original VN. However, since he clearly traced it in the original VN, which is more canon, Shirou remains capable of tracing it, IMO.

TypeWannabe
August 30th, 2011, 06:29 PM
No, Nasu retconned it in a book which is less canon than the original VN. However, since he clearly traced it in the original VN, which is more canon, Shirou remains capable of tracing it, IMO.

Pretty much my view. For those of you who are Star Wars fans, or Halo 3 fans, remember the rule of continuity override. The movies are supreme, games are up next, novels next, comics, etc.

Keyne
August 30th, 2011, 06:32 PM
Dunno if this will help you, but in the Last Episode the narrator talks about Shirou and says something along the lines of "He sees that nostalgic sword once again, but he can't remember the correct procedure.".

ChronoReverse
August 30th, 2011, 06:32 PM
I don't think Shirou has the ability to unintentionally substitute weapons without knowing....

Yeah, Shirou has the ability to look at any sword and instantly scan its entire construction, history, etc. Every time he did a slipshod job of tracing K&B, he KNEW it immediately.

Mcjon01
August 30th, 2011, 07:06 PM
Huh. I just noticed that the word arai translated as "degraded" in the entry about UBW and Excalibur means something more along the lines of "last-year's model" than "broken down". Significant?

eddyak
August 30th, 2011, 07:07 PM
Not really, but it'll spark off another ten pages of debate that go absolutely nowhere.

Kotonoha
August 30th, 2011, 07:08 PM
a book which is less canon than the original VN

That's not really something you can state as though it were a fact.

Tobias
August 30th, 2011, 07:09 PM
It.....actually is interesting? Hmmmmmmm........

Mike1984
August 30th, 2011, 07:10 PM
That's not really something you can state as though it were a fact.

The original story is always more canon because nothing else would exist without it, and it only makes sense when taken as a whole. If you retcon one part of the VN, then the entire story ceases to make sense.

Tobias
August 30th, 2011, 07:12 PM
Word of god be damned?

Keyne
August 30th, 2011, 07:12 PM
The original story is always more canon because nothing else would exist without it, and it only makes sense when taken as a whole. If you retcon one part of the VN, then the entire story ceases to make sense.
I kind of don't mind. My part of the story does not suffer from it. :3

Altima of the Gates
August 30th, 2011, 09:15 PM
Honestly it changes nothing, Shirou died, and exploded the grail with some kind of powerful force. Now, if it had said his sacrifice hadn't destroyed it and the cave-in finished it off, despite what he payed for it, I might flip my shit, but it didn't.

Hyarion
August 30th, 2011, 09:51 PM
Dunno if this will help you, but in the Last Episode the narrator talks about Shirou and says something along the lines of "He sees that nostalgic sword once again, but he can't remember the correct procedure.".

90% sure it showed a picture of Caliburn there, not Excalibur. As in, a reference to the Saber-and-Shirou-swing-Caliburn scene.

Counterguardian
August 30th, 2011, 10:20 PM
I still maintain Shirou shot a beam with his hand.

Tracer
August 30th, 2011, 10:48 PM
I still maintain Shirou shot a beam with his hand.
Shirou is a super saiyan?

eddyak
August 30th, 2011, 10:49 PM
I still maintain Shirou shot a beam with his hand.
In keeping with the latest CM3 info: A sword-shaped beam!

Mcjon01
August 30th, 2011, 10:51 PM
Shirou is a super saiyan?

Nah, just unisex.

Arashi_Leonhart
August 31st, 2011, 04:47 AM
In keeping with the latest CM3 info: A sword-shaped beam!

Shirou is old-school Link?



No, Nasu retconned it in a book which is less canon than the original VN. However, since he clearly traced it in the original VN, which is more canon, Shirou remains capable of tracing it, IMO.

If it were that he "clearly traced it" in the VN, we wouldn't have a debate, I don't think. And in most circles, "word of god" is just as canon as actual source material.

...Though word of god from Nasu is about as painful to figure out as the Flanneled One's...

Keyne
August 31st, 2011, 04:49 AM
90% sure it showed a picture of Caliburn there, not Excalibur. As in, a reference to the Saber-and-Shirou-swing-Caliburn scene.
I don't think Caliburn has a blurred CG.

Mike1984
August 31st, 2011, 04:57 AM
Honestly it changes nothing, Shirou died, and exploded the grail with some kind of powerful force. Now, if it had said his sacrifice hadn't destroyed it and the cave-in finished it off, despite what he payed for it, I might flip my shit, but it didn't.

But Shirou does not have the capacity to "accidentally" trace the wrong sword. UBW just does not work like that. He understands swords, not the abilities behind them, so to him two swords which have totally different make-up but which fire identical blasts are totally different swords with nothing in common (in terms of his tracing, at least). That's why he couldn't use the Azoth sword as a base to trace the Jewelled Sword. Even though to Rin they are similar and, thus, using one as the base for the other saves effort, to Shirou they are two totally different weapons and, thus, he cannot alter it in that way.

Hyarion
August 31st, 2011, 05:08 AM
He formed a bow (Archer's bow, wasn't it?) out of a tree branch. It's not so cut-and-dried as all that.

...Anyways, here's an interesting Nasuquote, since the conversation came back here again.


Nasu: I don't -- and I know you'll probably laugh when you hear this, but -- I don't want to lie about anything. That's the one aspect of my old works that I still treasure -- when I make rules in the beginning, I try to stick with them through the end.

Arashi_Leonhart
August 31st, 2011, 05:09 AM
He was also almost completely brain-fried. Anything perspective-wise he gave us after his fight with Kotomine is pretty suspect, to be honest, from a first person perspective, because even he didn't know what the hell was going on. He was just going on automation and muscle memory. He might've thought he was doing one thing but in fact doing something fairly different and putting very broken, dream-like thoughts over everything so his brain could still process what it had to do.

Counterguardian
August 31st, 2011, 05:39 AM
So he could have shot a beam out of his hand and he'd think it was a sword.

Arashi_Leonhart
August 31st, 2011, 06:12 AM
Anything to get Shirou to do a Hadouken, huh?

Counterguardian
August 31st, 2011, 06:18 AM
Fo' shizzle.

Mike1984
August 31st, 2011, 06:23 AM
He was also almost completely brain-fried. Anything perspective-wise he gave us after his fight with Kotomine is pretty suspect, to be honest, from a first person perspective, because even he didn't know what the hell was going on. He was just going on automation and muscle memory. He might've thought he was doing one thing but in fact doing something fairly different and putting very broken, dream-like thoughts over everything so his brain could still process what it had to do.

For Shirou to trace a weapon, though, he has to realise that he's tracing it. He couldn't see Excalibur and then end up with something else.

nununu
August 31st, 2011, 06:28 AM
Anything to get Shirou to do a Hadouken, huh?

For starters, Prisma Illya calls her finisher(prana blast) Maximal Scheiden...

Arashi_Leonhart
August 31st, 2011, 07:09 AM
For Shirou to trace a weapon, though, he has to realize that he's tracing it. He couldn't see Excalibur and then end up with something else.

Sleepwalking. People who do it are not always lucid enough to realize anything they are doing, but their muscle memory and habits make it possible for them to effectively be mobile. Some that do it while dreaming also might be experiencing something that makes complete and utter sense to them in dream state that makes no sense to them once they've been woken. It is possible for the mind to think of one thing but produce other effects, and Tracing is second nature to Shirou.

Strife ❤️
August 31st, 2011, 07:43 AM
Doesn't Archer say in UBW he can't replicate excalibur exactly but he can make a blade with similar abilities? It would just be a fake with lower attributes I'd imagine.

Arashi_Leonhart
August 31st, 2011, 07:45 AM
His literal words are something like "I can't reproduce that blade fully, but I can come close" or somesuch. General consensus seems to be either he was bluffing or what he makes is, relative to the glory of Excalibur proper, Excalipoor.

Mike1984
August 31st, 2011, 07:46 AM
Sleepwalking. People who do it are not always lucid enough to realize anything they are doing, but their muscle memory and habits make it possible for them to effectively be mobile. Some that do it while dreaming also might be experiencing something that makes complete and utter sense to them in dream state that makes no sense to them once they've been woken. It is possible for the mind to think of one thing but produce other effects, and Tracing is second nature to Shirou.

Sleep-walking is one thing, sleep-tracing is another matter entirely. Further, if Shirou decided he wanted to trace Excalibur, then he would try to trace Excalibur. UBW does not work in a way which allows him to change to tracing something else if that fails. To him, the swords are all different, and searching UBW for a sword with a similar effect is not something he could do unintentionally.


His literal words are something like "I can't reproduce that blade fully, but I can come close" or somesuch. General consensus seems to be either he was bluffing or what he makes is, relative to the glory of Excalibur proper, Excalipoor.

I see no reason why he should be considered to be bluffing, given that Shirou in HF does trace it, or something like it. He does, however, admit that what he would have traced would not be a perfect replication, so perhaps that is what Nasu means when he says "Shirou cannot trace Excalibur". However, regardless, it is good enough to oppose Saber's Excalibur (for a while at least) and to destroy the Great Grail.

Tracer
August 31st, 2011, 07:49 AM
His literal words are something like "I can't reproduce that blade fully, but I can come close" or somesuch. General consensus seems to be either he was bluffing or what he makes is, relative to the glory of Excalibur proper, Excalipoor.
Excalipoor or not, its still enough to counter a full blast from Excalibur from what he say.
Also, Excalibur its not -that- strong.. 4 petals Rho Aias block Blackalibur and Bellerophon at the same time AND from both sides.

Arashi_Leonhart
August 31st, 2011, 07:51 AM
Sleep-walking is one thing, sleep-tracing is another matter entirely. Further, if Shirou decided he wanted to trace Excalibur, then he would try to trace Excalibur. UBW does not work in a way which allows him to change to tracing something else if that fails. To him, the swords are all different, and searching UBW for a sword with a similar effect is not something he could do unintentionally.

Well, think of it like this. You're sleepwalking. Your dream-state is telling you that you're putting on clothes to go to work, and what you're grabbing is your work clothes. You put on the clothes you find and then head out. You have actually put on shorts and a hawaiian t-shirt. Now, in lucid state, you go, wtf, I work at a suit-and-tie business. Though in your dream, now that you think of it, you were going to work at a place that sells surf boards. Hmmm.

Keyne
August 31st, 2011, 07:53 AM
Excalipoor or not, its still enough to counter a full blast from Excalibur from what he say.
Also, Excalibur its not -that- strong.. 4 petals Rho Aias block Blackalibur and Bellerophon at the same time AND from both sides.
Which is plot armor because Rho Aias is said to have the strength of 7 fortresses, and Excalibur is specifically and anti-fortress weapon. Also, Saber Alter could not attack with full power because that would make the mountian collapse.

Tracer
August 31st, 2011, 07:56 AM
Which is plot armor because Rho Aias is said to have the strength of 7 fortresses, and Excalibur is specifically and anti-fortress weapon. Also, Saber Alter could not attack with full power because that would make the mountian collapse.
"Black servants can only attack with full power"
Also, Excalibur can take one fortress.. NOT 7.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

terraablaze
August 31st, 2011, 07:56 AM
Pretty sure Rho Aius and Bellerphon were supposed to be combining there defensive powers in tandem via the power of animu logic.
Just saying.

Strife ❤️
August 31st, 2011, 07:57 AM
Rho Aias blocking Excalibur makes no sense to me because Gae Bolg broke through 6 layers and it specializes against blocking lances and spears.

Arashi_Leonhart
August 31st, 2011, 07:59 AM
Rho Aias blocking Excalibur makes no sense to me. Gae Bolg broke 6 layers and it specializes against blocking lances and spears.

Gae Bolg > Hector's spear, simple as that.