PDA

View Full Version : F/SN Complete Material 3 page translation, confirmation needed about 3rd Grail War



Garlak
September 18th, 2012, 07:46 PM
Can somebody translate a page from Complete Material 3 for me?

More specifically -- supposedly, according to this page (http://imgur.com/w5C8m), there were Nazis involved in the 3rd Holy Grail War. Can anyone confirm/deny that?

Mike1984
September 18th, 2012, 07:47 PM
I believe that's true, yes. It's been translated before....

Garlak
September 18th, 2012, 07:49 PM
I believe that's true, yes. It's been translated before....

I've seen some translations, and rumors, saying so. But I wasn't sure of how accurate/trustworthy they were. So I'm kinda wondering if somebody can confirm or deny it with more certainty.

Seika
September 18th, 2012, 07:55 PM
Yeah, IJA and Nazis messing around in Tokyo and landmines in the streets. That's the Third for you.

- - - Updated - - -

I'll have a shaky translation done in a bit, if no-one more competent butts in first. (Please butt in).

But if all you want is confirmation, look under the 1930s entry in the first column. It says 'ナチス' midway through the second line - that means Nazis, as I expect even Google Translate will tell you.

Seika
September 18th, 2012, 08:40 PM
第二次世界大戦前夜に執り行われた回。
小聖杯を巡り帝国陸軍やナチスを交え、帝都を舞台に戦いが繰り広げられたが、小聖杯が破壊され 失敗。
聖杯降臨地は冬木協会。
アンリマユを取り込み、大聖杯が汚染された。

Took place on the eve of World War II.
The Imperial Army and Nazis clashed around the Lesser Grail. The battle was fought on Imperial turf, but the Lesser Grail was accidentally destroyed.
The Descent of the Holy Grail was at Fuyuki Church.
Angra Manyu was taken in, and the Greater Grail was polluted.

ratstsrub
September 18th, 2012, 08:56 PM
Wasn't this already translated?

(Oh, so the original translation couldn't be found and it was quicker to do a rough translation?)

Garlak
September 18th, 2012, 09:40 PM
Took place on the eve of World War II.
The Imperial Army and Nazis clashed around the Lesser Grail. The battle was fought on Imperial turf, but the Lesser Grail was accidentally destroyed.
The Descent of the Holy Grail was at Fuyuki Church.
Angra Manyu was taken in, and the Greater Grail was polluted.

Thank you for confirming it! :)

Seika
September 18th, 2012, 09:42 PM
Wasn't this already translated?

(Oh, so the original translation couldn't be found and it was quicker to do a rough translation?)

Don't think so. People haven't really bothered with that page, because its overviews are so cursory. I actually think I'm the only one who's done it, and that was because I wanted to learn about the First and Second Wars, which get so little focus that even the scraps are useful. Then this came up to make me do the Third. :p

(Additionally, its brevity makes it easier for me and my appalling Japanese to handle, at least in some ways).

Cruor
September 18th, 2012, 10:58 PM
arai translated it on the Complete Material wikia.

Seika
September 18th, 2012, 11:01 PM
Hm. So he did. Go with that one, then.

Held on the eve of WWII. There were battles over the Lesser Grail with the Imperial Army and the Nazis as well, and the fighting unfolded in the Imperial Capital, but the Lesser Grail was destroyed and the ritual failed. The evocation site of the Grail was at Fuyuki Church. Angra Mainyu was taken in and the Greater Grail was contaminated.

warellis
September 19th, 2012, 01:15 AM
Hm. So he did. Go with that one, then.

Held on the eve of WWII. There were battles over the Lesser Grail with the Imperial Army and the Nazis as well, and the fighting unfolded in the Imperial Capital, but the Lesser Grail was destroyed and the ritual failed. The evocation site of the Grail was at Fuyuki Church. Angra Mainyu was taken in and the Greater Grail was contaminated.
Wait does that mean the IJA and members of the Nazi party sent representatives to the Grail War? And is there any mention of what type of fighting unfolded in Tokyo?

Seika
September 19th, 2012, 02:03 AM
That's all that's in the entry - I quoted the Japanese with my translation, you can see that it's very brief. From other stuff in HA, we know things like Masters employing landmines, but the nature of Hollow Ataraxia means we don't get all that much.

aldeayeah
September 20th, 2012, 09:31 AM
If real world Nazis had been involved in the 3rd Holy Grail War, it would most probably have been the Ahnenerbe.

Five_X
September 20th, 2012, 12:09 PM
I see what you did there.

ZidanReign
September 20th, 2012, 02:55 PM
At least we know something we didn't know already

The Nazi's did it.

aldeayeah
September 20th, 2012, 04:02 PM
If we're more realistic, of the known participants, the most likely to have been involved with Nazis would be the Edelfelts.

(The other chief candidate would be the Einzberns, but they're kinda reclusive)

Mike1984
September 20th, 2012, 04:10 PM
If we're more realistic, of the known participants, the most likely to have been involved with Nazis would be the Edelfelts.

(The other chief candidate would be the Einzberns, but they're kinda reclusive)

Well, the Einsberns seem more likely than the Edelfelts to me, not least because they're actually German (although Finland was a Nazi ally, that was only really due to circumstance, and only came about when the Soviets started attacking them). Plus, the Edelfelts don't seem particularly evil.

aldeayeah
September 20th, 2012, 04:26 PM
The thing with the Einzberns is that they hate asking for outside help. That's why I'm not having them as the main suspects. Nothing to do with their evilness.

The Finnish higher classes had already been allied with Imperial Germany in the 1917 Civil War (this wasn't Nazi Germany, of course).

warellis
September 20th, 2012, 08:55 PM
Well, the Einsberns seem more likely than the Edelfelts to me, not least because they're actually German (although Finland was a Nazi ally, that was only really due to circumstance, and only came about when the Soviets started attacking them). Plus, the Edelfelts don't seem particularly evil.

However, Nazism was a workers' movement. Populist. Like communism it primarily relied on the masses and had little in common with the aristocracy. Also, like communism, it seeked to replace traditional focuses of loyalty. Hitler and many of the men who went into high positions under Nazism were primarily working-class individuals. I could see the Einzberns being Junkers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junker) under the German Empire, if they were Prussian, but Nazi Germany and Imperial Germany were very different. Hell under Nazi Germany they probably would've been persecuted due to being aristocracy. Yes the SS contained some people who were nobility and many nobles did join, but it was primarily a lower-class movement. This (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Analysis/NaziNobleman) TV Tropes page says it better.

Aldeayeah: Considering the Edelfelts are also nobility, what reason would they ally themselves with a movement that was primarily lower-class in origin and drive?

aldeayeah
September 21st, 2012, 08:14 AM
Pretty much all established magi families are elitist aristocrats, so by that logic no regular Master would have sought Nazi help. Yet someone did.

Mike1984
September 21st, 2012, 08:58 AM
The thing with the Einzberns is that they hate asking for outside help. That's why I'm not having them as the main suspects. Nothing to do with their evilness.

Yeah, but evilness is kind-of a prerequisite....


The Finnish higher classes had already been allied with Imperial Germany in the 1917 Civil War (this wasn't Nazi Germany, of course).

Exactly, Imperial Germany is not Nazi Germany. The two are very different.

- - - Updated - - -


However, Nazism was a workers' movement. Populist. Like communism it primarily relied on the masses and had little in common with the aristocracy. Also, like communism, it seeked to replace traditional focuses of loyalty. Hitler and many of the men who went into high positions under Nazism were primarily working-class individuals. I could see the Einzberns being Junkers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junker) under the German Empire, if they were Prussian, but Nazi Germany and Imperial Germany were very different. Hell under Nazi Germany they probably would've been persecuted due to being aristocracy. Yes the SS contained some people who were nobility and many nobles did join, but it was primarily a lower-class movement. This (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Analysis/NaziNobleman) TV Tropes page says it better.

The Nazis were more of a middle-class movement, really, although they did appeal to the masses. The nobility wasn't their base, but nor were they particularly hostile to it.

terraablaze
September 21st, 2012, 09:03 AM
Lots of different people sided with the Nazis, not all of them baby eating evil either. Considering the Japanese lack the rancor towards the Nazis that most Westerners do I'm not seeing your argument. It seems pretty clear Kiritsugu was the first time they asked for help. And it can't be the French master. So unless it's some unknown entity the Eldefelts seem like the best choice. I'm sure they've done way worse then make unsavoury political allies in the past being magi and all.

I3uster
September 21st, 2012, 09:03 AM
Uh, they weren't really a middle-class movement.

NSDAP

Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei
(National-socialist German worker's party)

Mcjon01
September 21st, 2012, 09:04 AM
Pretty much all established magi families are elitist aristocrats, so by that logic no regular Master would have sought Nazi help. Yet someone did.

I think the logic here is probably more along the lines of, "This war happened during WWII, how can it not have Nazis? It's too awesome to pass up. We can just handwave it with Hitler's love of the occult like everybody else!"

Mike1984
September 21st, 2012, 09:18 AM
Uh, they weren't really a middle-class movement.

NSDAP

Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei
(National-socialist German worker's party)

Yeah, I hate it when people use the name of the party to define what they are (although it's more commonly used to call them "socialist"). By the same logic, North Korea is a democracy....

The name of the party was a relic from the days before Hitler took over, as well as a way of gathering support. They certainly did appeal to the working class, but they also appealed to middle class and upper class people who were afraid of the Communists taking over.

- - - Updated - - -


Lots of different people sided with the Nazis, not all of them baby eating evil either. Considering the Japanese lack the rancor towards the Nazis that most Westerners do I'm not seeing your argument. It seems pretty clear Kiritsugu was the first time they asked for help. And it can't be the French master.

There's a bit of a difference between being a mook in the Nazi army and fighting to hand the Nazis the ability to wish for anything they desire, particularly when you're a magus who, thus, surely should know better.

Also, whilst the Japanese don't hate the Nazis like we did (they were allies, after all...), that doesn't mean that they're not well aware of what utter assholes they were.


So unless it's some unknown entity the Eldefelts seem like the best choice. I'm sure they've done way worse then make unsavoury political allies in the past being magi and all.

Honestly, I'm about 90% sure it is an "unknown entity". As others have pointed out, none of the magi families are the sort to ally with the Nazis, even the evil ones. They want the Grail for theirselves, and the Nazis would never allow that. Plus, it wouldn't be an "honourable battle" if you're sending in an army of German soldiers.

terraablaze
September 21st, 2012, 09:21 AM
Why would a magus hand over the Grail to the Nazis? Wouldn't the default assumption being the magus using them and then betraying them because you know they just got a hold of a wish granting vessel that does whatever they want? It's not like it would even be difficult, kill your scrub Nazi allies in the end with your Servant that they can't hurt and then have it obtain the Grail.

aldeayeah
September 21st, 2012, 11:34 AM
The 3rd Grail War was a Indiana Jones movie.

It is known.

Five_X
September 21st, 2012, 01:44 PM
Why would a magus hand over the Grail to the Nazis? Wouldn't the default assumption being the magus using them and then betraying them because you know they just got a hold of a wish granting vessel that does whatever they want? It's not like it would even be difficult, kill your scrub Nazi allies in the end with your Servant that they can't hurt and then have it obtain the Grail.

Eh, my Third War fic-in-planning involves the Nazis hiring a magus who has no real qualms about Nazism, and sending an SS officer to ensure that the magus keeps in line with the goals as ordered. Instead of there just being a troupe of random Nazis, it's just one man holding a short leash, preparing for whatever eventuality.

He's also one of the most popular characters in his MPII appearances. :p

Mcjon01
September 21st, 2012, 01:54 PM
Why would they need to hire a magus? The Nazi ranks were full of magi. Seriously, they were just lousy with them. Haven't you ever watched a movie? This is pretty basic stuff.

mewarmo990
September 22nd, 2012, 04:34 AM
The 3rd Grail War was a Indiana Jones movie.

It is known.
It is known.

Mike1984
September 24th, 2012, 07:48 AM
Why would a magus hand over the Grail to the Nazis? Wouldn't the default assumption being the magus using them and then betraying them because you know they just got a hold of a wish granting vessel that does whatever they want? It's not like it would even be difficult, kill your scrub Nazi allies in the end with your Servant that they can't hurt and then have it obtain the Grail.

I don't think the Nazis were quite that stupid, though....

Most likely, the Nazis sent a Nazi magus, probably one that wasn't really strongly affiliated with the Association.

Petrikow
September 24th, 2012, 07:57 AM
You'd think they'd send someone from the Thule Society.

Mcjon01
September 24th, 2012, 08:21 AM
Probably, they sent a lot of Nazi magi. And used the Spear of Destiny to summon the soldier that pierced Jesus' side as a Lancer.

terraablaze
September 24th, 2012, 08:26 AM
I don't think the Nazis were quite that stupid, though.... Most likely, the Nazis sent a Nazi magus, probably one that wasn't really strongly affiliated with the Association. I feel like a Nazi magus might be an oxymoron. Nazism and the goals of a magus just seem incompatible. At best you might have amateur magic users. As well as magi who are working alongside them that are just making use of their resources.

Seika
September 24th, 2012, 08:38 AM
A core tenet of magecraft: discovering the Root.
A core element of Nazism: Aryan superiority.
A core element of Tōko's search for the Root: achieving the original/perfect human body.

That actually looks quite compatible.

Mike1984
September 24th, 2012, 08:42 AM
I feel like a Nazi magus might be an oxymoron. Nazism and the goals of a magus just seem incompatible.

Really? Why?

Magi are pretty much stated to be rather racist (they look down on Rin for being Japanese), and are very conservative.


At best you might have amateur magic users. As well as magi who are working alongside them that are just making use of their resources.

Well, it's not like having "magic users" in the war is unheard of....

Mcjon01
September 24th, 2012, 08:45 AM
Not to mention, all the magi that don't really seem to care about high-minded ideals at all. Like, for instance, two of the three founding families behind the Grail War, whose entire motivation is "fuck those other two families". And this being the Nasuverse, the Thule Society probably was an actual mystic society promoting Nazism, that may or may not have had any connection to the Clock Tower at all. (And it's not like only magi at the Clock Tower doing things the Clock Tower way are real magi or something.)

terraablaze
September 24th, 2012, 08:53 AM
Nazis love technology, Magi hate it. Nazis are all about the Fuher, magi are all about themselves and their family. Also the Nazis aligned themselves with the Catholic church. More importantly though is how the Nazis liked to get there hands on everything and then modify it to make it more "Arayan", whereas Magi are about searching for the untainted original.

I mean I guess it could happen but they would probably be heretics. I sort of imagine a Nazi magus as a magic Red Skull. Pays lip service until he has enough power.

Mcjon01
September 24th, 2012, 09:06 AM
Implying that there aren't magi families out there devoting all of their immense resources to the development of science and technology solely to fuck over the True Magic users by killing their True Magic. That's the kind of dicks magi are!

Mashina
September 24th, 2012, 09:13 AM
"Sehai-kun Sehai kun, my people are being badly treated by the other countries!"

*Living-Space Maker!*

"You should just kill all of the people of the other countries."
"Thank you Sehai-kun!"

terraablaze
September 24th, 2012, 09:14 AM
I included the possibility of heretics!

Seika
September 24th, 2012, 09:15 AM
*Living-Space Maker!*

"You should just kill all of the people of the other countries."

You are a terrible, terrible person. Just thought you should know that. :p

Mcjon01
September 24th, 2012, 09:16 AM
It's only heretical if you do it out of pure love for technology. Devoting your life to it to fuck somebody else over is Clock Tower approved!

Mashina
September 24th, 2012, 09:18 AM
You are a terrible, terrible person. Just thought you should know that. :p

I was not aware of that. Thank you for enlightening me.

terraablaze
September 24th, 2012, 09:21 AM
This thread is now a cross-Nazi-magi-action-idealogy discussion thread.

Bittersweet
September 24th, 2012, 09:28 AM
It's only heretical if you do it out of pure love for technology. Devoting your life to it to fuck somebody else over is Clock Tower approved!

Not if it involves science.

Scientists pls get out! We don't serve your kind here. :D

Kotonoha
September 24th, 2012, 09:44 AM
I don’t wanna talk to a scientist
Y’all motherfuckers lying, and getting me pissed

Bittersweet
September 24th, 2012, 09:45 AM
Fuckin' rainbows! How do they work?

Kotonoha
September 24th, 2012, 09:49 AM
The refraction of liMIRACLES IT'S MIRACLES

Mashina
September 24th, 2012, 09:53 AM
I'm sure the magic nazis wouldn't have had to interact with the science nazis very much.
At least not much beyond "Oh you silly billies with your scientific methods and your killing innocent people for your research, when we're done we'll have miracles, and we kill at least as many people completely by accident!"

Mike1984
September 24th, 2012, 11:04 AM
Nazis love technology, Magi hate it.

Not really. The Nazis used technology, but they were also rather into mysticism.


Nazis are all about the Fuher, magi are all about themselves and their family.

What?


Also the Nazis aligned themselves with the Catholic church.

Not really. They just let the Catholic Church continue existing in return for the Catholic church not opposing them.


More importantly though is how the Nazis liked to get there hands on everything and then modify it to make it more "Arayan", whereas Magi are about searching for the untainted original.

What?


I mean I guess it could happen but they would probably be heretics. I sort of imagine a Nazi magus as a magic Red Skull. Pays lip service until he has enough power.

Well, most of the main magus families probably wouldn't work with the Nazis, no, but they wouldn't use them either. I think you're massively exaggerating the differences between magi and the Nazis, though.


Not to mention, all the magi that don't really seem to care about high-minded ideals at all.

What do you mean?


Like, for instance, two of the three founding families behind the Grail War, whose entire motivation is "fuck those other two families".

Erm, what?

None of the three major families are motivated by "fuck the other families". Indeed, in Zero Tokiomi tried to broker an alliance with the Einsberns precisely because he would rather one of the three main families win than someone else.


And this being the Nasuverse, the Thule Society probably was an actual mystic society promoting Nazism, that may or may not have had any connection to the Clock Tower at all. (And it's not like only magi at the Clock Tower doing things the Clock Tower way are real magi or something.)

Yeah, this too. Just because the MA isn't Nazi, doesn't mean other magi won't be.

Bittersweet
September 24th, 2012, 11:06 AM
The refraction of liMIRACLES IT'S MIRACLES
Miracle refraction? That sounds like something Nasu would come up with...

Mcjon01
September 24th, 2012, 11:14 AM
None of the three major families are motivated by "fuck the other families". Indeed, in Zero Tokiomi tried to broker an alliance with the Einsberns precisely because he would rather one of the three main families win than someone else.

The entire reason the ritual always falls apart is because none of the three families can stand the thought of sharing with each other, and Zero even says that Tokiomi is the only one in the Fourth War that still cares about the original goal of reaching the Root. The Einzberns and Matous are in it for their own reasons, and top priority for each of them is making sure neither of the other houses win.

Or did you see a special version where everybody worked together and the Servants fought with hugs and cooperation?

Bittersweet
September 24th, 2012, 11:16 AM
Nasuland magi families: Live free, fail hard.

Mike1984
September 24th, 2012, 11:28 AM
The entire reason the ritual always falls apart is because none of the three families can stand the thought of sharing with each other, and Zero even says that Tokiomi is the only one in the Fourth War that still cares about the original goal of reaching the Root. The Einzberns and Matous are in it for their own reasons, and top priority for each of them is making sure neither of the other houses win.

Or did you see a special version where everybody worked together and the Servants fought with hugs and cooperation?

What?

Sure, they're in it for theirselves, but they are not explicitly trying to stop the other families from winning. They are just trying to ensure that they do win.

Tokiomi specifically states that he'd rather the other two families win than some random magus and Zouken is too fucking nuts to care about anything barring his own victory. The only ones who could even possibly think like that are the Einsberns, and at no point in Zero does either Kiritsugu or Iri say anything that implies they think that way.

Mcjon01
September 24th, 2012, 11:30 AM
But they can't win if the other families win. And if the other families win, they lose.

aldeayeah
September 24th, 2012, 11:42 AM
Then it's fuck the world, not fuck the other 2 founding families!

Mike1984
September 24th, 2012, 11:42 AM
But they can't win if the other families win. And if the other families win, they lose.

Well, yes, they are obviously trying to defeat them, but that's not a specific goal, it's just a requirement for them to win theirselves. Their top priority is simply victory.

Mcjon01
September 24th, 2012, 11:49 AM
But if they were pure in their ideal of reaching the Root, they'd have no problem working together and sharing the achievement as long as it meant they got there. The fact that they each decided they want the Graill to themselves sort of implies they don't want the others to have it, you know. Tokiomi is sort of an odd duck out, since he really does just care about reaching the Root.

TypeWannabe
September 24th, 2012, 04:05 PM
Yeah, I was about to say. Tokiomi is a very specific example that shouldn't represent the whole. You could have made a case for Zouken, because he was originally in it for world peace, but...yeaaaaaah, he's crazy now.

EDIT: Wow, I'm late.

Mike1984
September 24th, 2012, 04:54 PM
But if they were pure in their ideal of reaching the Root, they'd have no problem working together and sharing the achievement as long as it meant they got there. The fact that they each decided they want the Graill to themselves sort of implies they don't want the others to have it, you know. Tokiomi is sort of an odd duck out, since he really does just care about reaching the Root.

Well, I dunno if it was even possible for more than one of them to reach it.

But, regardless, they still weren't intending to scupper each other, they just wanted to win for theirselves.

Seika
September 24th, 2012, 11:13 PM
And this being the Nasuverse, the Thule Society probably was an actual mystic society promoting Nazism, that may or may not have had any connection to the Clock Tower at all.
.




Sea of Estray - Associations spread throughout northern Europe.

Sponheim Abbey - An organization affiliated with the Clock Tower. Alba was supposed to be its next director.
Praha Association - Another group that encourages the study of alchemy. Classical alchemists.
Thule Society - An organization with the original runic scripts.

Verg Avesta
September 25th, 2012, 09:42 AM
A quick note on the earlier discussion about Nazis and Edelfelts: Edelfelts were/are an actual aristocratic family from Finland, with ties to the parties that were against the idea during WW2 that Finland would use Nazi-Germany against USSR. I would find it very unlikely (considering what the Finnish opinion about Nazis was at that time) it very unlikely that Edelfelts, or any other Finnish magi families, would work for Nazi-Germany in Grail War 3.