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I3uster
September 18th, 2012, 08:25 PM
So guys, when I was bored and clicked through the older parts of the forum I stumbled upon this little thread:
http://forums.nrvnqsr.com/showthread.php/242-my-opinions-on-Fate-and-tsukihimes-casts/

And I thought it was a pretty cool thread to get character discussions going, which we have very little of (aside from the usual suspects) in GD. Sadly I am not the OP of that thread so necroing wouldn't really serve a purpose, so why not a new thread?

Keep in mind that this isn't MY thread, I am not a professional critic or something like that, rather it is a thread where you can share character interpretations and analysis, your opinions regarding characters and other stuff. Basically a general character discussion thread of some kind, just like the Versus thread became our general powerlevels thread and the Questions thread our general mechanics thread.
I'd like to start this out with a bit of Tsukihime first, we can go over to Fate later (or sooner if there isn't much discussion which would be rather sad), since Fate gets discussed in GD, Polls, and FF discussion enough already. Though I won't discourage anyone of posting Fate stuff, but for now it might be nice to do the underappreciated things first?

So, waifus first. Let's start with Ciel. (Opinions begin here)
http://i.imgur.com/OA4H0.png

Ciel is a good character. Great in fact. And for me this has two reasons:

a) Ciel has 3 layers
b) Ciel is a broken bird heroine with a twist


So, then let's take Ciel apart (not in the Church sense). By the time of Tsuki, Ciel pretty much has these three personas to handle. I guess you could call Roa the 4th facet but...he's not. He's Roa. They are the following:




Ciel-sempai. The mask. Your typical „slightly more mature than the protagonist“ Sempai character who is quirky in a few things (splint repairing, curry love). Definetly easy to like, pretty cute and her interactions with Shiki were always pretty funny. I could see myself going for her if Tsuki was a less RAPEMURDER VN but she still misses something essential, that is conflict of some kind, in her character. And deliberately so, after all she doesn't want to attract attention and this personality is fake, a mask to decieve everyone. OR IS IT?


Number 7. The hard shell. Ciel in her agent-of-the-Church mode is personality is hardened. A soldier, focussed completely on the mission. While she does show some softer sides to Shiki these always felt almost accidental to me, as if she was slipping out of her role there.
Because this side of her is how Ciel (falsely) sees herself. How she „wants to be“ in a way. She wants to repent her sins, she wants to make up for what she did (yes, SHE did. Roa after all doesn't completely overwrite someone's personality, just adds them to his own. Which means from her point of view SHE was the one at fault for the death of everyone she ever loved, cared about and knew. Poor girl ;_; ), and she doesn't want to be distracted by anything while she's on the job. But the poor girl isn't a machine, so even this personality is fake.

Elesia. The soft core. You get occassional glimpses of that personality in the other routes, but everything only really comes together in hers. It is much closer to Ciel-sempai than anything else, but still, I wouldn't call the girl at the end of he route the same as that quirky girl. She is much more vulnerable in a way, and this makes her route pretty sweet and it makes her work as a love interest. Especially how Shiki's outlook on life essentially showed her the way to enjoy her life, no matter how horrible her past was made their dynamic work the best out of all heroines in my opinion. Because all she ever wanted to have was a happy life. Daaaaaaaw.



I saw some comments (I think it was the fanclubs) where people debated what Ciel they liked more, the Executor or the Sempai, and I have to say I wouldn't be able to decide, since the question seems so nonsensical to me. She is a character with multiple layers, THAT makes her interesting, trying to determine which layer is the best is imo not the right way to approach her character.


Okay, so now my second point: A broken bird heroine with a twist.


What is that twist you ask? She does not rely on pity.
Every heroine of this type relies to some extent on the fact that you pity her. Yes, even Kohaku.
But with Ciel, I never got that feeling. And the reason is the reveal of her „tragic backstory“ in the Ciel route.


You know how she just stands there, showing no emotion and giving you the explanation in cold, hard facts? A strange way to try to invoke pity, right? Because that scene isn't supposed to do that.


That scene is supposed to make you afraid.


Because she isn't talking to Shiki at this point. No, her situation seems more like a victim holding the gun against the face of an attacker and telling him what she had to go through. Like revenge. Because she is talking to Roa. And at this point, Shiki is Roa.
And this worked, for me at least, incredibly well.


Later on this facade crumbles, she starts crying, emotional scene, Roa gets dotstabbed out of Shiki etc.
And this shows us another thing: Roa was never the source of her problems. Yes, he was at fault for everything that happened in her village, but for her unhappiness? It was her own.
The only person who made it so hard for her to find any happiness in life was herself, out of a sense of obligation she felt towards the victims. Because she was unable to let the past go, unlike Shiki who always lived in the present (again, the dynamic, so gud).


And here I want to state something, because she (like Kohaku) is, in BL often compared to Sakura due to them both having super tragic backstories.
If you look at what I wrote...don't you see the parallels to another heroine? One that also had to adopt a persona out of a sense of obligation, born from circumstances beyond her control, a mask that alienated others and seemed almost inhuman?


That's right, from my point of view the TM heroine Ciel resembles the most is not Sakura, but Saber.


Discuss.

Satehi
September 18th, 2012, 08:29 PM
TL;DR

SeiKeo
September 18th, 2012, 08:30 PM
Please seriouspost in this thread.

I3uster
September 18th, 2012, 08:30 PM
Ciel so gud, she is layer cake.

HappyCube
September 18th, 2012, 08:32 PM
I see this thread going to great places, then running out of gas and dissolving into a pool of black mud.
Maybe I'll try my hand at writing something for a character I like later. Maybe Akiha or someone

Break
September 18th, 2012, 08:32 PM
i would write some analysis of Illya now, but sadly i am not in the mood and not awake enough for that, so remind me of it later.

Apple
September 18th, 2012, 08:32 PM
TL;DR

^

I3uster
September 18th, 2012, 08:33 PM
^

It's like 20 fucking lines man, you read a VN longer than War & Peace.

Apple
September 18th, 2012, 08:36 PM
I did?

Also I didn't have other things to distract me at the time.

ratstsrub
September 18th, 2012, 09:06 PM
At first, you might think that Ciel is bland and boring, but she has a surprisingly interesting backstory.

*Sometimes, people are layered like that. There's something totally different underneath than what's on the surface.

And sometimes, there's a third, even deeper level, and that one is the same as the top surface one. Like with pie.*

Ciel is pie.

I3uster
September 18th, 2012, 09:08 PM
(It's funny because she is a baker)

ratstsrub
September 18th, 2012, 09:10 PM
It's a triple whammy.

Spinach
September 18th, 2012, 09:22 PM
Super serious thread, please post only extremely serious posts of the utmost seriousness.

Thank you,
- Management

Lancelot
September 18th, 2012, 09:53 PM
Ciel so gud, she is layer cake.

So can I do what I do with layered cakes? Take the layer I like most?
I like Ciel, but she can be boring at times, with the latest melty blood and that power ciel I can finally enjoy a little more of badass Ciel.

Cruor
September 18th, 2012, 09:55 PM
I think they slightly changed her character to make her more likable for MBAACC, who agrees?

Lancelot
September 18th, 2012, 10:01 PM
True or not, I like it >;3
I don't care if they improve that character to make it likable.

I3uster
September 18th, 2012, 10:01 PM
Huh, I dunno what you mean?

Vicious
September 18th, 2012, 10:27 PM
Best thread. Let us discuss a better character though. Like, say, Gilgamesh.

In his Fate/Stay Night backstory, it says that Enkidu's death shocked him and caused him to become tormented by the fear of death. He went to look for immortality as a means to thwart it and eventually found an exilir which would grant it, but as you all know it was stolen from him by a snake. As a result, Gilgamesh "died of grief".

So we've established that Gilgamesh became a sort of thanatophobic dude after his BFF passed away. Yet in Fate/Zero, he seems to be over it, given this exchange of his with Kirei:

Kirei: "Is it really so fun to live so stubbornly for the greed of 'enjoyment'?"
Gilgamesh: "If you’re jealous, you can try to live a little like this too. You won’t fear annihilation once you comprehend just what is enjoyment."

So, apparently, it seems Gil is over his fear of death by the time he's summoned into the 4th Holy Grail War. Anyone got any theories as to why? I look forward to your extremely serious and in-depth character analysis. =)

Break
September 18th, 2012, 10:35 PM
i guess fate/Zero uses more of his canon legend, where he didnt die of grief after failing the immortalitysearch so pathethically, but learned his lesson and basically said "nothing i can do about it now, no use brooding over it, ill just enjoy the time i have as much as possible" and presumably became a pretty decent king after that, building a citywall and streets and establishing better ways for merchants and all in Uruk and made the city/country flourish. and then died when his time had come.

Seika
September 18th, 2012, 10:50 PM
http://i.imgur.com/buWzA.png

Berserker Alter:
http://i.imgur.com/cFmZL.png


(Newly stolen and inexpertly transparented from the game, just for this. So much effort for such a crap post)

Apple
September 18th, 2012, 10:59 PM
Very nice, Seika.

Except... what exactly is its relevance to the thread...?

Seika
September 18th, 2012, 11:01 PM
Those are my character analyses, obviously.

ItsaRandomUsername
September 18th, 2012, 11:09 PM
http://i.imgur.com/buWzA.png

Berserker Alter:
http://i.imgur.com/cFmZL.png



Oh really? Do tell.

redsilversnake
September 19th, 2012, 01:08 AM
http://i.imgur.com/buWzA.png

Berserker Alter:
http://i.imgur.com/cFmZL.png


(Newly stolen and inexpertly transparented from the game, just for this. So much effort for such a crap post)

That was a very interesting and compelling analysis. I commend you for writing such an in-depth look at the facets of Berserker we either take for granted or simply overlook, and even doing a great compare/contrast with the subtle changes from his corruption by AM. Seriously, best post of this thread so far.

ratstsrub
September 19th, 2012, 01:16 AM
i guess fate/Zero uses more of his canon legend, where he didnt die of grief after failing the immortalitysearch so pathethically, but learned his lesson and basically said "nothing i can do about it now, no use brooding over it, ill just enjoy the time i have as much as possible" and presumably became a pretty decent king after that, building a citywall and streets and establishing better ways for merchants and all in Uruk and made the city/country flourish. and then died when his time had come.


He went on a distant journey, pushing himself to exhaustion,
but then was brought to peace.

Followed by repeats after repeats after repeats.

Altima of the Gates
September 19th, 2012, 02:07 AM
If you look at what I wrote...don't you see the parallels to another heroine? One that also had to adopt a persona out of a sense of obligation, born from circumstances beyond her control, a mask that alienated others and seemed almost inhuman?


That's right, from my point of view the TM heroine Ciel resembles the most is not Sakura, but Saber.

Hmm. Interesting. I'll agree on your first and third point on adapting a mask out of a sense of obligation, but choice was the big thing we have that makes Ciel very different. Saber had the choice to pull the sword (as slanted and hard as it was, it was still a choice), and she had the choice on how she would run the kingdom. That was not really a thing Ciel had. It is a very stark difference there that shows the root of the reasoning for the way they lived.

But I really can't say that the similarities we draw from each of the heroines are anything more than skin deep, imo.

I3uster
September 19th, 2012, 09:46 AM
I don't know, the manga makes it out like she had a "choice" that was of course slanted, but then again, manga, so yeah.
It is more about the reason for her suffering is more related to her own disposition than to the tragedies of her past. Which isn't the case for Sakura and only partially the case for Kohaku.

Keyne
September 19th, 2012, 10:03 AM
Well, time to read what Luster has to say...

Keyne
September 19th, 2012, 11:10 AM
I saw some comments (I think it was the fanclubs) where people debated what Ciel they liked more, the Executor or the Sempai, and I have to say I wouldn't be able to decide, since the question seems so nonsensical to me. She is a character with multiple layers, THAT makes her interesting, trying to determine which layer is the best is imo not the right way to approach her character.
GOOD GOD! THIS!

I KNOW THIS SO WELL AND EVERYTIME I SEE THIS, IT PAINS ME SO!!

And here I want to state something, because she (like Kohaku) is, in BL often compared to Sakura due to them both having super tragic backstories.
If you look at what I wrote...don't you see the parallels to another heroine? One that also had to adopt a persona out of a sense of obligation, born from circumstances beyond her control, a mask that alienated others and seemed almost inhuman?


That's right, from my point of view the TM heroine Ciel resembles the most is not Sakura, but Saber.
I always compared Sakura to Kohaku anyway.

I get your point and now that I think about it, I do see the parallels. Bravo. OcO

Altima of the Gates
September 19th, 2012, 11:18 AM
I don't know, the manga makes it out like she had a "choice" that was of course slanted, but then again, manga, so yeah.
It is more about the reason for her suffering is more related to her own disposition than to the tragedies of her past. Which isn't the case for Sakura and only partially the case for Kohaku.

Well for the first point, you'll have to be a bit more specific on what you mean where you assume there was a semblance of choice.
Moreover, one's disposition/outlook is carved out by their experiences in the past so you can't really separate them,for example, Sakura's empathy for others is carved out partially by her experiences. And Kohaku's disposition and past are pretty much unable to be separated, as being a part of a sorrowful situation from that far back in personal development makes it very much a part of the person's personality and personal outlook. Like, you'll always have the person raised in the ghetto see, interact, and develop in certain ways from someone who wasn't, obviously.

I3uster
September 19th, 2012, 01:28 PM
Well, this comparison is based less on their experience but more on how they choose to handle it, and especially to what degree it is even possible to handle that.
Sakura for instance never had a "choice". Not even a semblance of it. Ciel either had (if we go by the manga interpretation) or gets one later then chooses not to (if we go by Talk). Saber also had a choice.

Keyne
September 19th, 2012, 01:47 PM
Saber also had a choice.
Indeed she had.

Usandru
September 19th, 2012, 05:12 PM
@Sakura/Kohaku comparison.

It really isn't a very good comparison aside from perhaps the most superficial archetypal comparisons. I mean, almost literally the only points of similarity are having really, really shitty childhoods full of rape.

After that, it just all breaks apart, largely due to this one particular thing. Agency.

As in, Kohaku has metric fucktons of it, and Sakura only really has it during Heaven's Feel, and if you assume that most of her actions as "Dark Sakura" are actually Angra Mainyu sockpuppeting her, then she actually barely has an agency at all.

Consider. In Tsukihime, Kohaku is the ultimate mastermind behind almost all the terrible things that happen, has more capacity for causing changes than Shiki, the main character and is incidentally also morally culpable for at least a few dozen murders. Indirectly, but still.

In Fate, Sakura is largely narratively absent except in Heaven's Feel. The repercussions of the things that have been done to her are felt even in Fate and UBW, but she doesn't actually do anything personally. In Heaven's Feel, she does go mad with power and arguably her rampage is largely because she gains agency midway through the story, having the power to do anything she wants with seemingly no true consequences, and in the process of course becomes the villain, but this explicitly requires that she doesn't have the moral "out" of Angra Mainyu being the controlling factor. If she's a sockpuppet, then even in her route she's basically a narrative prop for Shirou to love. Sure, she's an important prop and her character is integral to the story, but she still doesn't do anything. The route itself is even triggered because Shirou falls in love with her, and her core emotions remain largely static until she goes "Dark".

To say nothing of the personality differences, or even just personality archetypes of Kohaku and Sakura. Trickster figure vs. "pure" girl/doormat.

Really, in terms of narrative function and archetypes, it's Hisui and Akiha that aggregated are probably the best comparisons with Sakura, given partial traits from both of them. If I were to make a comparison with Kohaku and an F/SN character, I'd much rather mention Kotomine.

This would logically make Kohaku's route the Tsukihime equivalent of Kotomine's route. Rejoice! :3

And to pre-empt accusations of various types, I don't dislike Sakura. Of course, I don't really like her either, but that has very little to do with her as a "person" and more with the fact that I find characters with no agency and doormat personalities pretty boring, which is personal opinion. My rough comparative analysis of the two are based in narrative function and not "likeability" or anything of the sort. Characters with little to no agency are not "wrong", even if I find them boring, and other people like doormats/"pure" girl archetypes just fine, which again is fine.

Anyway, gimme multiple counts of premeditated murder and eternally hollow bright smiles Kohaku any day. :3

Five_X
September 19th, 2012, 05:29 PM
Kohaku, eternally the best heroine even though she was a last-minute add-in.

Usandru
September 19th, 2012, 05:32 PM
Kohaku doesn't even need to be a heroine to be awesome. Her route was nice, but all the awesome and all the implications already existed in all the other routes. As I said, she's much closer to Kotomine in terms of narrative function. Without Kohaku, there wouldn't be a Tsukihime.

I3uster
September 19th, 2012, 05:50 PM
I don't know, her involvement in the Near Side is almost nonexistant. She has to share that spot with good old fabulous chap Roa.

Five_X
September 19th, 2012, 06:02 PM
I don't know, her involvement in the Near Side is almost nonexistant. She has to share that spot with good old fabulous chap Roa.

>near side
>relevant

Pffft, silly I3uster. Far Side is a different game from Tsukihime, since it doesn't even have the Tsukihime at all.

Usandru
September 19th, 2012, 06:06 PM
I don't know, her involvement in the Near Side is almost nonexistant. She has to share that spot with good old fabulous chap Roa.

This is partially true. She doesn't do much on screen there.

She's still the one who releases Roa in the first place (making her accessory to all the horrible things he does) and I vaguely remember something about her drugs being what makes Shiki chop Arc into pieces. So while Near Side rapidly diverges outside Kohaku's control, without her actions, it wouldn't have happened in the first place (or at least, Tsukihime's Far Side implications on Near Side would have been much less compelling).

I3uster
September 19th, 2012, 06:09 PM
Hey, I liked the Far Side routes more than the Near Side routes too (though in the heroine department Ciel is still #1), but let's face it, if the never-existing sequel becomes reality due to all stars aligning and bombarding Nasu with cosmic rays of non-laziness, it's going to take place after the Near side.

- - - Updated - - -


This is partially true. She doesn't do much on screen there.

She's still the one who releases Roa in the first place (making her accessory to all the horrible things he does) and I vaguely remember something about her drugs being what makes Shiki chop Arc into pieces. So while Near Side rapidly diverges outside Kohaku's control, without her actions, it wouldn't have happened in the first place (or at least, Tsukihime's Far Side implications on Near Side would have been much less compelling).
But Roa would have emerged even without Kohaku, since he gained control of SHIKI when Kohaku didn't even know how to poison Makihisa.

And Shiki chopping Arc was Roa acting through Shiki through SHIKI (Chinese Roa whispers).

Keyne
September 19th, 2012, 06:10 PM
This is partially true. She doesn't do much on screen there.

She's still the one who releases Roa in the first place (making her accessory to all the horrible things he does) and I vaguely remember something about her drugs being what makes Shiki chop Arc into pieces. So while Near Side rapidly diverges outside Kohaku's control, without her actions, it wouldn't have happened in the first place (or at least, Tsukihime's Far Side implications on Near Side would have been much less compelling).
Was it her medication or his Demon Hunter instincts?

Five_X
September 19th, 2012, 06:11 PM
Kohaku gives Shiki his knife. Ergo, Kohaku makes the entire plot of the game. What would Shiki do without a knife? His fingers are as pasty and soft as butter.

I3uster
September 19th, 2012, 06:13 PM
Can't argue with that.

Keyne
September 19th, 2012, 06:13 PM
"Now go, my instrument of retribution! ufufufufu.... HAVE A NICE TRIP, SHIKI-SAAA~~N!"

Usandru
September 19th, 2012, 06:15 PM
But Roa would have emerged even without Kohaku, since he gained control of SHIKI when Kohaku didn't even know how to poison Makihisa.

Of course Roa would still have emerged. However Roa's release from the captivity that Makihisa held him in was all Kohaku unless I'm remembering Tsukihime very badly. "Roa exists" is not something dependent on Kohaku. "Roa is active in Misaki" is. She could've kept him locked up and given him a lethal injection. Instead she lets him out for the purpose of a revenge ploy.


And Shiki chopping Arc was Roa acting through Shiki through SHIKI (Chinese Roa whispers).

Ah. Alrighty then, this is all Roa. I really need to reread the VNs. Been too long.

@Five: And that too. Murderboy isn't himself without his knife. =P

I3uster
September 19th, 2012, 06:18 PM
I doubt that she could have killed him. She didn't know that he was a vampire, and those don't die when they are killed, even if you feed them a boatload of cyanide. Especially SHIKIRoa who can survive without vital organs because he's just that good.

Usandru
September 19th, 2012, 06:26 PM
I doubt that she could have killed him. She didn't know that he was a vampire, and those don't die when they are killed, even if you feed them a boatload of cyanide. Especially SHIKIRoa who can survive without vital organs because he's just that good.

*shrug*

She could keep him locked up. We don't really know her situation, and presumably, having access to Makihisa's records, she would've been capable of doing extensive tests of Roa's immortality if she decided to off him. And, well, she could still have just kept him locked up, unless he suddenly developed an ability to escape he didn't have when he first turned, when finally Makihisa died?

Well, you could argue that Makihisa was doing something special, but I somewhat doubt the old man was dumb enough to make his own life be required in maintaining the prison, since whatever else you might want to call him, he was pretty damn methodical and careful.

I3uster
September 19th, 2012, 06:32 PM
Well, releasing was certainly her doing, you're right with that. Just saying that she would never be able to kill him without endangering herself to an unreasonable degree.

TypeWannabe
September 19th, 2012, 06:34 PM
That still gets me. I mean, "Immortality" (or, I should say, SHIKI's version of it) is pretty worthless, because when you get down to it, he'll keep going even when he's just a pile of organs and blood.

I3uster
September 19th, 2012, 06:35 PM
It's not worthless when you combine it with vampire regeneration which stops after you are dead enough.
Because you are never dead enough this way.

Cruor
September 19th, 2012, 06:35 PM
We know that Makihisa had locked SHIKI in the basement (I actually do believe they used the term cage) where Kohaku was pretty much his caretaker, yeah. She shooped him up with drugs until he escaped after Makihisa died (who also probably died due to Kohaku tbh). Roa induced insanity and tripping balls with a shitton of bloodthirst isn't exactly the best thing ever when you first leave your house. Was probably looking for a lock of Arc's hair he was using as a bookmark in the city library.

Mike1984
September 19th, 2012, 06:35 PM
And to pre-empt accusations of various types, I don't dislike Sakura. Of course, I don't really like her either, but that has very little to do with her as a "person" and more with the fact that I find characters with no agency and doormat personalities pretty boring, which is personal opinion. My rough comparative analysis of the two are based in narrative function and not "likeability" or anything of the sort. Characters with little to no agency are not "wrong", even if I find them boring, and other people like doormats/"pure" girl archetypes just fine, which again is fine.

Sakura doesn't act because she cannot act, except in a way which she does not wish to. In HF, her options are "go mad and hurt those she loves" or "do nothing". But, even then, it takes a hell of a lot of mental strength for her to be able to do nothing, which is why I like her character so much.

Cruor
September 19th, 2012, 06:36 PM
That still gets me. I mean, "Immortality" (or, I should say, SHIKI's version of it) is pretty worthless, because when you get down to it, he'll keep going even when he's just a pile of organs and blood.

Hey bro, remember that Takumi guy from Chaos;Head that you hated so much after you heard what he did during the climax of the game?

I3uster
September 19th, 2012, 06:37 PM
I actually think Makihisa might have been killed by Akiha. Driven insane by Kohaku of course, but the duty of the family is to exterminate the insane after all, since that's what Makihisa was supposed to be doing with SHIKI.

- - - Updated - - -


Sakura doesn't act because she cannot act, except in a way which she does not wish to. In HF, her options are "go mad and hurt those she loves" or "do nothing". But, even then, it takes a hell of a lot of mental strength for her to be able to do nothing, which is why I like her character so much.

And he dislikes her because she cannot act, no matter if it's her fault or not. :V

Usandru
September 19th, 2012, 06:38 PM
...you know, this thing about Kohaku being unable to kill Roa leads me to the hilarious thought of her deciding to simply wait, and then finally when Arc or Ciel crash into the Tohno mansion to find him, she calmly asks why they're there and then proceeds to lead them down into the basement, where Roa is stuck, and cheerily tells them to have a go at it.

The looks on their faces. The looks on their faces! xD

I3uster
September 19th, 2012, 06:40 PM
Considering that this would have been pre-cut Arc she might just Alt Nagel the mansion and call it a day.

Five_X
September 19th, 2012, 06:44 PM
Considering that this would have been pre-cut Arc she might just Alt Nagel the mansion and call it a day.

It can't be pre-cut Arc, I mean he's already way past his bar mitzvah let alone birth.

I3uster
September 19th, 2012, 06:47 PM
Arc is part of the Zionist Vampire conspiracy?

Five_X
September 19th, 2012, 06:50 PM
Arc is part of the Zionist Vampire conspiracy?

She's part of the Priory of Sion.

TypeWannabe
September 19th, 2012, 06:52 PM
Hey bro, remember that Takumi guy from Chaos;Head that you hated so much after you heard what he did during the climax of the game?

...I hate Takumi and Haruhi or whatever that bimbo's name is for being horrible OCs in Battle Moon Wars, yes.

I3uster
September 19th, 2012, 06:57 PM
oh gawd BMW OCs

...someone make a character study on THEM. TW, you wanna?

Five_X
September 19th, 2012, 06:58 PM
oh gawd BMW OCs

...someone make a character study on THEM. TW, you wanna?

Mike, the talking cat, best thing EVER.

TypeWannabe
September 19th, 2012, 07:23 PM
Not really, because I started to loath them from a story perspective so much that I would go out of my way to not do anything with them, resulting in hilariously underleveled characters and properly leveled up canon characters.

I3uster
September 19th, 2012, 07:27 PM
I did the exact same thing, fuck them.

Seika
September 19th, 2012, 07:53 PM
Sakura doesn't act because she cannot act, except in a way which she does not wish to. In HF, her options are "go mad and hurt those she loves" or "do nothing". But, even then, it takes a hell of a lot of mental strength for her to be able to do nothing, which is why I like her character so much.

Well she doesn't quite try to do nothing - she hedges her bets by hinting to Shirō that he ought to kill her (evidently not quite wanting to go ahead and do it herself or Command Spell Rider to do it). He just fails to oblige her - at least in some timelines.

Mike1984
September 19th, 2012, 08:04 PM
Well she doesn't quite try to do nothing - she hedges her bets by hinting to Shirō that he ought to kill her (evidently not quite wanting to go ahead and do it herself or Command Spell Rider to do it). He just fails to oblige her - at least in some timelines.

Well, true, she doesn't do absolutely nothing, because she does try to deal with her issues once she realises that she is the shadow, by going to see Zouken and force him to stop what he's doing (even if it will likely result in her death). But, in general, her ability to act is highly limited unless she's acting in a way that Zouken approves of.

mAc Chaos
September 19th, 2012, 08:06 PM
I wonder what would've happened if she ran into Zouken without Shinji interfering and ruining everything.

Mike1984
September 19th, 2012, 08:40 PM
I wonder what would've happened if she ran into Zouken without Shinji interfering and ruining everything.

That wasn't going to happen, because Zouken was safely hidden somewhere else waiting for Shinji to "ruin everything"....

Seika
September 19th, 2012, 09:37 PM
Well, true, she doesn't do absolutely nothing, because she does try to deal with her issues once she realises that she is the shadow, by going to see Zouken and force him to stop what he's doing (even if it will likely result in her death).

Which is actually her secondary plan, mind. The "I'd get more mad than anybody else." / "I'm glad. I'd want you to do that." exchange is well before even Mind of Steel - back on Day 6.

ChiakiKakumei
September 19th, 2012, 11:55 PM
Let's try an analysis for either Luvia or V.Sion.

Spinach
September 20th, 2012, 12:01 AM
Luvia has almost no actual, canon screentime and V. Sion is just Sion + being a vampire. A V. Sion analysis is basically just an analysis of Sion, and anyone who can make a genuine Luvia analysis earns some respect from me.

I3uster
September 20th, 2012, 12:01 AM
Luvia is one step away from a joke character.

Altima of the Gates
September 20th, 2012, 01:56 AM
Which is actually her secondary plan, mind. The "I'd get more mad than anybody else." / "I'm glad. I'd want you to do that." exchange is well before even Mind of Steel - back on Day 6.

Actually you're assuming she knew how this would turn out that early in. Zouken carefully manipulates her reactions, and she tries within her power to not be manipulated. Like when she sent Rider when she obviously could have been severely punished to Ryuudo Temple the day Saber was killed(an example of things she did behind he scenes, sending Rider to the Einzbern Forest was another, how do you think they got to the Church in time but using Sakura's last bit of energy for Rider to use Pegasus?).

Remember, her reasoning was not to participate in the war at all if Shirou was involved, because she didn't know what Zouken would do. So she worked within the confines of a person who literally was attached to a bomb in her chest. That vague talk she gave Shirou was if the worst should happen.


Luvia is one step away from a joke character.


Well, she is the boisterous type of ojou-sama, and her "rivalry" with Rin could very easily be given more potential for drama, the fact that they are blood related only adds to what could be. There is quite a lot of potential there if Nasu wanted to use it.

Seika
September 20th, 2012, 02:41 AM
Actually you're assuming she knew how this would turn out that early in.
Not 'knew', but was quite aware of the possibility. Nearly as soon as she becomes aware of how severe the drain on her prana can be, she goes to Shirō and gives him this sort of permission. I think her plans evolve through the war - Mike said that she had the choice to go mad and kill people or to do nothing. When she's at that stage: when she's fully cognizant of how much damage she could do (let's say around Mind of Steel, since the previous few scenes have shown her herself undeniably losing it and hurting people), she has to resort to 'I told Shirō he could deal with me, I won't stop him.' To that extent, the assisted suicide plan was both the first she had ready and the one she ended up falling back on (for all that Shirō messed it up).


Like when she sent Rider when she obviously could have been severely punished to Ryuudo Temple the day Saber was killed

I'm not honestly sure that Zōken would care. Attachment to Shirō serves his purpose. Shinji might punish her, but Zōken? Eh. And I think that's mostly what this is about. To me it seems that Sakura cares more for Shirō than actually beating Zōken and getting through this - Rider's probably the biggest example. Even when she knows it's screwing her over, she continues to maintain Rider and order about in order to protect Shirō, going so far as to spend the Command Spell on it.


how do you think they got to the Church in time but using Sakura's last bit of energy for Rider to use Pegasus?.

If we're talking about assumptions here ...

I mean, seriously, you don't think that would have warranted some attention in the text?

Cruor
September 20th, 2012, 03:17 AM
...I hate Takumi and Haruhi or whatever that bimbo's name is for being horrible OCs in Battle Moon Wars, yes.

Oh, I remember you going on a long tangent when we were arguing Takumi vs someone from FSN and then somebody brought up how he was turned to liquid in the final battle of Chaos;Head and then had started using disillusions to recreate himself and you were like 'wait, what? Alright, I don't know who this guy is or anything about him but I hate him and hate his guts and everything about him' or something. It was pretty way back to around when you first joined. And I can't remember if it was Verg, Kenta, or Tobias (I definitely remember it was one of those 3) that was up on the Takumi side.

Altima of the Gates
September 20th, 2012, 03:26 AM
Not 'knew', but was quite aware of the possibility. Nearly as soon as she becomes aware of how severe the drain on her prana can be, she goes to Shirō and gives him this sort of permission. I think her plans evolve through the war - Mike said that she had the choice to go mad and kill people or to do nothing. When she's at that stage: when she's fully cognizant of how much damage she could do (let's say around Mind of Steel, since the previous few scenes have shown her herself undeniably losing it and hurting people), she has to resort to 'I told Shirō he could deal with me, I won't stop him.' To that extent, the assisted suicide plan was both the first she had ready and the one she ended up falling back on (for all that Shirō messed it up).

The thing is, honestly, her killing herself is pretty ineffectual(given it took Zouken getting exorcized and the soul jar actually destroyed and him just giving up to stop him)and the fact that Zouken quite clearly encourages Shirou to do so ought to ring alarm bells.
The situation isn't really as cut and dry as, "I kill myself, I help Senpai" because as I said, she is unsure of everything Zouken has done to her body and what his plans are. Moreover, she has a servant with Independent Action, if the problem is just about prana drain, why not replenish it? Rin isn't exactly hurting for it.The condition for the worms draining her more than usual was for her to fight in the War. Euthanizing a person is kind of a final, no-take backs kind of thing. Also, it wasn't assured she wouldn't survive the soul jar removal, so why not try that instead of suicide? Better to hope, fail and know you tried your best than to totally give up. Sakura was raised in a bleak environment, so her outlook is about what you'd expect, but it was surprising to see the others give up that quickly for a solution.


I'm not honestly sure that Zōken would care. Attachment to Shirō serves his purpose. Shinji might punish her, but Zōken? Eh. And I think that's mostly what this is about. To me it seems that Sakura cares more for Shirō than actually beating Zōken and getting through this - Rider's probably the biggest example. Even when she knows it's screwing her over, she continues to maintain Rider and order about in order to protect Shirō, going so far as to spend the Command Spell on it.

She doesn't know that he would brush it off, and in the scene he was actively angry calling Rider a traitor. The guy just changes his plans on the fly is all.
And further, it was only because she used Rider as she did that the cast actually survived that long. It is a catch-22 to the audience due to her being attached to the Shadow, but to her, who doesn't know the full gravity of the situation, using Rider was the best choice, and it did in fact save them more than once. You have to think along the lines of how the cast is viewing the situation.


If we're talking about assumptions here ...

I mean, seriously, you don't think that would have warranted some attention in the text?

Archer was down, Rin was down, Shirou was down, and we have the interlude where Rider gets permission to use her NP while Sakura watches from remote vision (which nixes her consciousness and gives us our first clues about the Shadow's autonomous nature given she is watching it from Rider's vision). It is more than reasonable for us, the audience to grasp that it was Rider who got the gang to the Church on Pegasus given she and Archer were making plans before Shirou blacked out. Ilya sure as hell didn't carry them the three hours walk out of the forest and 1 hour walk to the Church.

Seika
September 20th, 2012, 04:16 AM
The thing is, honestly, her killing herself is pretty ineffectual(given it took Zouken getting exorcized and the soul jar actually destroyed and him just giving up to stop him)

Do we know that? What is Zōken going to do if Sakura is straight-up dead? He can mess around with pseudo-immortality but she gets none of that without giving herself over to the Shadow (either being possessed by it or when she gives in to the contract). And, again, this isn't just about Zōken and the Shadow, since Sakura's awareness of them is very hazy for a long time - it's about the threat that Sakura can and does anticipate: she runs out of mana, she and Rider kill indiscriminately to get it.


The situation isn't really as cut and dry as, "I kill myself, I help Senpai" because as I said, she is unsure of everything Zouken has done to her body and what his plans are.
Nevertheless, it's a fact that she goes for Shirō as a first option. She thinks that's a necessary step, and it's the first one she takes - no putting it off: whilst it might not be her preference, it's her starting point, even as she goes on to ... not do a lot to avoid prana draining herself into a situation where Shirō's going to have to follow through. In any case, not sure what you're arguing here.


Moreover, she has a servant with Independent Action, if the problem is just about prana drain, why not replenish it? Rin isn't exactly hurting for it.
What's IA got do with this, other than making sure she doesn't go mad so quickly? As to Rin ... I could guess that she wants to be sure of Rider's loyalty, since that's basically what's protecting Shirō for now, and therefore doesn't want someone else to have even a temporary contract. But I don't know, she simply doesn't take that course. In any case, I have no idea what you're proposing the problem is if not prana drain. She's continually collapsing from it.


Euthanizing a person is kind of a final, no-take backs kind of thing.
Which I'm quite sure she's aware of, yes. It's also a very effective way of stopping you from doing things you don't want to. But what's the relevance of how final it is? Sakura surely knows that, and she's put it on the table anyway.


Archer was down, Rin was down, Shirou was down, and we have the interlude where Rider gets permission to use her NP while Sakura watches from remote vision
Except Rin's not even remotely hurt and I can see nowhere in the scene that Rider or Sakura mentions a Noble Phantasm. Are you mixing this up with something else?


but to her, who doesn't know the full gravity of the situation, using Rider was the best choice, and it did in fact save them more than once.
It also got damn near to killing everyone once, and whilst Rider may help (as it turns out, yes, she does), she is certainly draining Sakura all the time. Which leads to nothing good. Even without the Shadow (i.e. the information everyone's operating on in Mind of Steel), Sakura going berserk for prana with a loyal and contracted Servant spells death all around.

I'm still not quite sure of what you're saying - I don't understand how some of your points are meant to interact with my position. For the sake of that, then:

1) Sakura's immediate course of action on noticing that the prana drain is getting serious (and predicting that she might become a 'bad person') is to give a hint to Shirō that this is possible and to tell him that dealing with her is the right thing to do. We might therefore reason that this is a plan she considers important or necessary, since the natural reaction would be to put off telling your friend, albeit in roundabout terms, that you want him to kill you if something goes wrong.

2) By roughly the time of Mind of Steel (and going a little way further into the game), Sakura now fully understands the danger her having very low prana stocks can bring to people. Moreover, as regards her prana stores, things have advanced to such a stage that Rider is having to take drastic action to try and keep Sakura's situation stable, including endangering Rin and Shirō. Sakura's options have once again narrowed, and rather than 'go mad and kill people she loves', it's notable that she makes no action to tell Shirō that he shouldn't punish her now that what her being a 'bad person' means has shown up. Seems fully accepting in the situations where you do kill her - it looks to be what she's going for. Which is slightly different from 'do nothing' as Mike put it, though it doesn't require active input from Sakura, since she mentioned it a good while ago.

(Secondary position: There needs to be much more evidence for me to believe something like Rider pulling out her Pegasus as a transport after the Shadow confrontation).

Mike1984
September 20th, 2012, 07:14 AM
Which is actually her secondary plan, mind. The "I'd get more mad than anybody else." / "I'm glad. I'd want you to do that." exchange is well before even Mind of Steel - back on Day 6.

Yeah, but that's "if she becomes a bad person". Sakura in HF is not a bad person, it's not her fault that the shadow is leaking out through her.

- - - Updated - - -


I'm not honestly sure that Zōken would care. Attachment to Shirō serves his purpose. Shinji might punish her, but Zōken? Eh.

He doesn't care, but Sakura doesn't know that.


And I think that's mostly what this is about. To me it seems that Sakura cares more for Shirō than actually beating Zōken and getting through this - Rider's probably the biggest example. Even when she knows it's screwing her over, she continues to maintain Rider and order about in order to protect Shirō, going so far as to spend the Command Spell on it.

Yes, definitely. Sakura doesn't really care for her own well-being, because she lacks enough self-esteem to do so. She just wants Shirou to be safe.

- - - Updated - - -


Do we know that? What is Zōken going to do if Sakura is straight-up dead? He can mess around with pseudo-immortality but she gets none of that without giving herself over to the Shadow (either being possessed by it or when she gives in to the contract).

If Sakura dies, then for all we know Angra Mainyu could take over her body immediately, and then they're really screwed.

And, again, this isn't just about Zōken and the Shadow, since Sakura's awareness of them is very hazy for a long time - it's about the threat that Sakura can and does anticipate: she runs out of mana, she and Rider kill indiscriminately to get it.


Which I'm quite sure she's aware of, yes. It's also a very effective way of stopping you from doing things you don't want to. But what's the relevance of how final it is? Sakura surely knows that, and she's put it on the table anyway.

Sakura has no sense of self-worth, so it's not suprising that she is willing to sacrifice herself. That doesn't mean that the others should just go along with it.


2) By roughly the time of Mind of Steel (and going a little way further into the game), Sakura now fully understands the danger her having very low prana stocks can bring to people. Moreover, as regards her prana stores, things have advanced to such a stage that Rider is having to take drastic action to try and keep Sakura's situation stable, including endangering Rin and Shirō. Sakura's options have once again narrowed, and rather than 'go mad and kill people she loves', it's notable that she makes no action to tell Shirō that he shouldn't punish her now that what her being a 'bad person' means has shown up. Seems fully accepting in the situations where you do kill her - it looks to be what she's going for. Which is slightly different from 'do nothing' as Mike put it, though it doesn't require active input from Sakura, since she mentioned it a good while ago.

Well, in general, she seems OK with whatever Shirou decides. In the church, she lets herself die unless Shirou defends her, in which case she runs away. But, that's because she has no self-esteem and, thus, cannot comprehend that her life is valuable. As far as she's concerned, Shirou is all that matters.

aldeayeah
September 20th, 2012, 07:17 AM
Maybe I'll try to post of analysis of Shiki as he appears in only Tsukihime (no KT or MB). His characterization is so inconsistent, I'm sure it'll take some work.

1. Life with the Nanayas
2. Life with the Tohnos
3. Aoko I
4. Life with the Arimas
5. The main story
5.1. Arcueid route
5.2. Ciel route
5.3. Akiha route
5.4. Hisui route
5.5. Kohaku route
6. Aoko II (Eclipse)

to be edited

Mcjon01
September 20th, 2012, 07:25 AM
We the audience do know that AM won't just burst out of Sakura immediately if she dies, because there's an ending where she dies, and that doesn't happen. She's just dead.

aldeayeah
September 20th, 2012, 07:29 AM
What ending? I'm thicker than usual today

Keyne
September 20th, 2012, 07:42 AM
What ending? I'm thicker than usual today
Mind of Steal, the geas ending...

aldeayeah
September 20th, 2012, 07:54 AM
But Sakura's death doesn't happen onscreen in those two right?

Keyne
September 20th, 2012, 08:01 AM
But Sakura's death doesn't happen onscreen in those two right?
No.

Mike1984
September 20th, 2012, 08:03 AM
We the audience do know that AM won't just burst out of Sakura immediately if she dies, because there's an ending where she dies, and that doesn't happen. She's just dead.

We don't see that, though. We know Sakura got killed, but we don't really have the time to see what happens after that.

aldeayeah
September 20th, 2012, 08:05 AM
Obviously Rin was only able to kill her because she gave in to AM corruption herself! The final showdown is Dark Rin vs Supershirou!!one!1

Mcjon01
September 20th, 2012, 08:12 AM
We don't see that, though. We know Sakura got killed, but we don't really have the time to see what happens after that.

Well, in both cases they stand around for a minute or two after the deed is done and there's a conspicuous lack of horrifying death screams and all-consuming shadows coming from the back room. There's absolutely zero implication that she's going to resurrect as Angra Mainyu, and everything about the narrative indicates that from that point on everything is going to proceed as a normal Grail War with a much more broken Shirou. Saying we don't know it won't happen is a pretty flimsy argument.

I3uster
September 20th, 2012, 10:36 AM
Well, she is the boisterous type of ojou-sama, and her "rivalry" with Rin could very easily be given more potential for drama, the fact that they are blood related only adds to what could be. There is quite a lot of potential there if Nasu wanted to use it.

But she lacks the twist Nasu usually gives his characters. You know, like Rin being a typical tsundere but this reflecting her status as a girl between two worlds.
Luvia is just a cliche with the funny gimmick that she likes pro-wrestling which is unladylike. And I doubt she will get fleshed out more...

You know it might be cool to throw her into one of those Fate retreads like Apocrypha or something, after all her family was once involved in a Grail War and she's quite...confident.

Spinach
September 20th, 2012, 10:38 AM
Hot damn I would buy the Apocrypha novels if she was in them. I can't even read them, but I'd still do it.

Luvia is hot.

Mike1984
September 20th, 2012, 10:43 AM
But she lacks the twist Nasu usually gives his characters. You know, like Rin being a typical tsundere but this reflecting her status as a girl between two worlds.
Luvia is just a cliche with the funny gimmick that she likes pro-wrestling which is unladylike. And I doubt she will get fleshed out more...

Well, that's because Luvia is a side-character and not one of the main heroines. Although, IIRC she is supposed to be very nice to anyone who isn't Rin....

Break
September 20th, 2012, 10:48 AM
Hot damn I would buy the Apocrypha novels if she was in them. I can't even read them, but I'd still do it.

Luvia is hot.

in case your not already reading it, Luvia is a mainchar in prisma Illya.

mAc Chaos
September 20th, 2012, 11:50 AM
Yeah that's one of the reasons I like it. One of the few places she gets some screentime.

Altima of the Gates
September 20th, 2012, 12:28 PM
@Seika: Sent you PM.


But she lacks the twist Nasu usually gives his characters. You know, like Rin being a typical tsundere but this reflecting her status as a girl between two worlds.
Luvia is just a cliche with the funny gimmick that she likes pro-wrestling which is unladylike. And I doubt she will get fleshed out more...

You know it might be cool to throw her into one of those Fate retreads like Apocrypha or something, after all her family was once involved in a Grail War and she's quite...confident.

She, as Mike pointed out, is different from most magi in that her personality is of a kinder noble if you don't happen to be Rin, and there is potential there in that most of the noble families are anything but noble. Hell, perhaps she could be used later on if Nasu has that "Ten-years later Grail system removal" as one of the people opposed to the Association. Sure, she is used for laughs now, but as you just said, her family does have roots in the conflict as well.

And yes, using her in Apocrypha wouldn't be a bad idea.

I3uster
May 3rd, 2013, 11:08 PM
Wakame_ (irc://irc.irchighway.net/Wakame_,isnick) in fsn rider was really dull and did nothign but protect sakura

I3uster Zero Rider is p good tho
Ragnar (irc://irc.irchighway.net/Ragnar,isnick) Wasn't that Bellerophon?
Wakame_ (irc://irc.irchighway.net/Wakame_,isnick) but in ha we learned she had deep character traits, like wanting to protect sakura


We conclude that she is literally the worst character. Any defendants?

mAc Chaos
May 3rd, 2013, 11:09 PM
What about Zouken.

I3uster
May 3rd, 2013, 11:11 PM
He gets a moment of depth as he dies.

SeiKeo
May 3rd, 2013, 11:13 PM
We conclude that she is literally the worst character. Any defendants?

Can't be worse than track girls.

hinode
May 3rd, 2013, 11:14 PM
We conclude that she is literally the worst character. Any defendants?

Still sounds better than Jack the Stripper to me.

mAc Chaos
May 3rd, 2013, 11:15 PM
He gets a moment of depth as he dies.
Well, Rider has some depth. She starts off as a psychotic killer and then you learn she's... well, still kind of crazy but has a more human side to her. I didn't read HA though which I assume has more Rider scenes. Plus she likes to READ

BlackField
May 3rd, 2013, 11:16 PM
We conclude that she is literally the worst character. Any defendants?
She's no less(or more) developed than Kuzuki or Herakles.

terraablaze
May 3rd, 2013, 11:34 PM
Can't be worse than track girls.

Track girls actually have wants and desires and defining character traits.

^
the fact that you have to compare her to the guy who was stripped of almost all his personality and a guy who was brainwashed to fulfill one task in life is pretty telling.

BlackField
May 3rd, 2013, 11:42 PM
I never said she was a good character, just that she's no worse than 2 other people. I could bring in most characters if I wanted to and compare them to Medusa and say shes no worse but while it would be true in a sense, it wouldn't be in another sense.

Kuradora
May 3rd, 2013, 11:53 PM
She's no less(or more) developed than Kuzuki or Herakles.
Nah, Kuzuki and Herakles get some good development, Herakles more than Kuzuki.

mAc Chaos
May 3rd, 2013, 11:55 PM
What about Lancer and Kojiro.

They are pretty awesome but they're pretty simple too.

BlackField
May 4th, 2013, 12:11 AM
Nah, Kuzuki and Herakles get some good development, Herakles more than Kuzuki.
What was Herakles's development? That he wanted to cross blades with Emiya? That he was willing to stay with his master rather than fade away? Its not really much more than all of Medusa's moe scenes in HF and sadism.

And Kuzuki is laughable, he's literally "I'm a teacher who's good at killing people and loves my waifu" and nothing more.

Milbunk
May 4th, 2013, 12:14 AM
Kuzuki's whole thing is that he has no personality, in fact if I remember correctly the entire reason he decided to go along with Caster in the first place was because he was trying to find a purpose in life, and to finish that all off he chose to keep going even when he had no reason to at the end of UBW.

terraablaze
May 4th, 2013, 12:18 AM
I think that's kind of the point of people's complaints. The two characters immediately comparable to her are two people with extreme excuses for little character development, but she doesn't and gets about 5 times more screen time and attention then they do.

Mcjon01
May 4th, 2013, 12:20 AM
Key word in character development is "development". It's a measurement of change, not an indicator of magnitude. Hercules may have ended with a total character mass of 10 Shakespeares, but he started at -90 due to raving insanity. That's way more development than some well-characterized douche that moved from 90 to 100 over the course of the story.

And you absolutely cannot forget Tiger Colosseum.

Zenieth
May 4th, 2013, 12:28 AM
People tend to mistake Character development for actual character. Not everybody needs to be dynamic to be a good character.

mAc Chaos
May 4th, 2013, 12:32 AM
Yup. I remember someone here listed four different ways of characterization. Something like, flat and dynamic, deep and dynamic, flat and unchanging, deep and unchanging.

Reiu
May 4th, 2013, 12:37 AM
Yup. I remember someone here listed four different ways of characterization. Something like, flat and dynamic, deep and dynamic, flat and unchanging, deep and unchanging.

Wasn't it round (rather than deep)? Or something like that.

mAc Chaos
May 4th, 2013, 12:41 AM
Same thing. Basically they have multiple facets to their personality, like Kotomine and Gilgamesh, even if they do not change.

BlackField
May 4th, 2013, 12:47 AM
I think that's kind of the point of people's complaints. The two characters immediately comparable to her are two people with extreme excuses for little character development, but she doesn't and gets about 5 times more screen time and attention then they do.
In a way, Medusa's just a Saber that never became a heroine. All quiet and I'll do my job and follow my ideals. Even in HF she's still a side character.

Like Mac Chaos said, depending on the way you look at it, she's no more characterised than a lot of the other side characters, its just her personality isn't particularly loud.

Rowanism
May 4th, 2013, 12:53 AM
OP Ciel fanboyism
So you're saying Ciel is like an onion. She smells and makes people cry.

Sounds about right.

DezoPenguin
May 4th, 2013, 01:13 AM
Same thing. Basically they have multiple facets to their personality, like Kotomine and Gilgamesh, even if they do not change.

Also, don't mistake revelations of an existing character trait for character development. For example, Herk. When we first meet him, he appears to be all "GRA! Kill things!" Eventually, we find out that he's actually, "GRA! Protect Illya by killing things!" That's not development--he didn't change who he was; we just found out more about him. (You could, on the other hand, argue that he did undergo development during the months in the forest with Illya.)

Character development refers to a dynamic character changing throughout the course of the story. The audience learning more information about the personality of a static character is a different thing (and is usually a way to reveal character depth, the other axis).

Mcjon01
May 4th, 2013, 01:34 AM
But coming out of mad enhancement is literal character development! He develops a character where there wasn't any before! (For a few seconds then dies.)

mAc Chaos
May 4th, 2013, 01:45 AM
Kuzuki's whole thing is that he has no personality, in fact if I remember correctly the entire reason he decided to go along with Caster in the first place was because he was trying to find a purpose in life, and to finish that all off he chose to keep going even when he had no reason to at the end of UBW.
Also, I never thought Kuzuki had no personality, just a really understated one. He is kind of like a mirror of Shirou, just like Kotomine.

Kuradora
May 4th, 2013, 02:51 AM
Kuzuki's whole thing is that he has no personality, in fact if I remember correctly the entire reason he decided to go along with Caster in the first place was because he was trying to find a purpose in life, and to finish that all off he chose to keep going even when he had no reason to at the end of UBW.

He reflects on killing Rin in that bad end and dislikes how he doesn't feel anything about it. That's personality.

Rowanism
May 4th, 2013, 03:43 AM
But coming out of mad enhancement is literal character development! He develops a character where there wasn't any before! (For a few seconds then dies.)
More like velopment then. He had a character before Mad Enhancement and returns to it upon losing it.

Spinach
May 4th, 2013, 03:50 AM
Yup. I remember someone here listed four different ways of characterization. Something like, flat and dynamic, deep and dynamic, flat and unchanging, deep and unchanging.

It was Frantic, I think. Something Static, Dynamic, Rounded, and Flat. Not 100% sure "Flat" was the fourth, but it conveys the same meaning. He also went on a tangent about how most characters combine two of the elements, I almost specifically recall him bringing up Cu Chulainn as an example of a Static-Rounded rounded character, to show that a character needn't be dynamic to be good.

orangetunes
May 4th, 2013, 05:41 AM
Thing about Cu though is that the unlucky bastardo was an interesting dude, Rider was dull as heck and only exxxisted for that T&A. Also shame on you all for not discussing the best, most deep servant, Archa.

ZZ-3000
May 4th, 2013, 07:07 AM
I like Medusa's character. The problem with her is that I think she just didn't get enough exposure in F/SN, even within her own route, and also her quiet personality makes her appear as very uninteresting. Sure you got to speak to her in HF, but it was always in regards to how she feels about Sakura rather than herself. And while I am playing HA at the moment, the scenes that deal with her back story are still untranslated, so I can't comment a lot on her at this point.

But from what very little I've gathered from them (via very bad online translations), I see her as a figure who has similarities with Avenger-someone who was created to be the embodiment of humanity's wish fulfillment. Avenger was meant to embody all the evils in the world, while Medusa was meant to be the embodiment of the most beautiful woman in the world. Both grew bitter and angry that they were shoved these roles without any consent or had any control over the matter, especially in regards to how they were treated (Medusa being bullied for her height by her sisters/raped by Poseidon (unless this isn't canon in the nasuverse) and Avenger basically being tortured for his entire life by the people from his village). But in the end they both accepted these people before they died since they realized that they were all they had left and chose to love them regardless of what happened to them. I once read this doujin which shows that Medusa could sense Avenger's presence within Shirou, which is why she keeps being drawn to him, even if she didn't initially know why, because of the similar bond they share beneath the surface.

Orange
May 4th, 2013, 09:46 AM
I rather like Rider as well. The ruthless side of her was really good to watch. She was really bad at strategy though.

She never seemed to take into account the long term consequences of her plans either for herself or for Sakura.

Tobias
May 4th, 2013, 09:48 AM
Rider would have been a better charachter if she wasnt nailed to sakura's ass. it wasnt a bad dynamic for the fate story but it really interfered with her ability to really manifest as a real person.

Orange
May 4th, 2013, 09:52 AM
Rider would have been a better charachter if she wasnt nailed to sakura's ass. it wasnt a bad dynamic for the fate story but it really interfered with her ability to really manifest as a real person.

I felt that she was a good character. But she could've been a great character if we had more insight into her history, How she felt about the events happening on HF, more interaction with Rin, Sakura, Archer etc.

I suppose that would've just made the route too large though.

I3uster
May 4th, 2013, 09:52 AM
But once she is no longer nailed to her in HA it doesn't change much, does it?

I always get the feeling Nasu tried way too hard with the twist that she was actually good after showing her as completely ruthless for two routes. And then continues to show her as ruthless for 50% of HF. Because the feeling that she is actually well-intentioned hangs really strongly on if you really like Sakura at that point. And HF doesn't exactly deliver on that front, at least in my opinion.

It was a gamble that didn't pay off. The reverse Nasu can do quite well, see Kohaku.

ZZ-3000
May 4th, 2013, 09:55 AM
I agree. As always, blame Sakura....

*Waits for the wrath of Mike

He really is gone...

- - - Updated - - -

Never really saw her as good, even after the twist, simply as true neutral. If you have no intention in hurting Sakura, great. If you do, it's blood-sucking time. That was always the case, except in HF her priorities changed once Shinji fucked up one too many times.

Kelnish
May 4th, 2013, 09:58 AM
But once she is no longer nailed to her in HA it doesn't change much, does it?

I always get the feeling Nasu tried way too hard with the twist that she was actually good after showing her as completely ruthless for two routes. And then continues to show her as ruthless for 50% of HF. Because the feeling that she is actually well-intentioned hangs really strongly on if you really like Sakura at that point. And HF doesn't exactly deliver on that front, at least in my opinion.

But she is ruthless. Why wouldn't she be ruthless? Being ruthless in your soft-heartedness doesn't make you not ruthless or not soft in that spot. She's fucking Medusa, of course she's a killer. I'm confused what you wanted. Did you want her personality to completely change like she's bipolar once we found out that this one note character had two notes?

I3uster
May 4th, 2013, 10:04 AM
I agree. As always, blame Sakura....

*Waits for the wrath of Mike

He really is gone...

- - - Updated - - -

Never really saw her as good, even after the twist, simply as true neutral. If you have no intention in hurting Sakura, great. If you do, it's blood-sucking time. That was always the case, except in HF her priorities changed once Shinji fucked up one too many times.

More like Neutral Evil. She does totally get off hurting people even when ordered to.


But she is ruthless. Why wouldn't she be ruthless? Being ruthless in your soft-heartedness doesn't make you not ruthless or not soft in that spot. She's fucking Medusa, of course she's a killer. I'm confused what you wanted. Did you want her personality to completely change like she's bipolar once we found out that this one note character had two notes?
The goal was to make her seem consistent as a character. You get psycho murder bitch for 2 routes and then she is actually good and you should root for her despite her being comic book levels of blatantly evil. You get several scenes where Shirou is all like I'M SO GLAD U EXIST RIDER which of course ignores the shit she pulled in the other two routes because they didn't really happen here. But for the reader this feels very inconsistent.

ZZ-3000
May 4th, 2013, 10:11 AM
More like Neutral Evil. She does totally get off hurting people even when ordered to.


The goal was to make her seem consistent as a character. You get psycho murder bitch for 2 routes and then she is actually good and you should root for her despite her being comic book levels of blatantly evil. You get several scenes where Shirou is all like I'M SO GLAD U EXIST RIDER which of course ignores the shit she pulled in the other two routes because they didn't really happen here. But for the reader this feels very inconsistent.

Not exactly. When you fuck up during the bad end from your first battle in school with her during the Fate route, she asks Shinji whether he wants to save Shirou's ass instead of letting him bleed out and it's only after Shinji gives the order is when she finishes you off:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhrPeITkF28

Orange
May 4th, 2013, 10:11 AM
It would probably have been better if Sakura had gradually been introduced in the other two routes. This way felt extremely jarring, Whether you like her depends on whether you sympathize with her situation or not.

The difference b/w Kohaku and Sakura was that Kohaku had a bit more leeway because of the fact that Makihisa actually regretted what he was doing when he was sane. We had plenty of opportunity to develop a liking for Kohaku because even though she didn't have much of a role in the Near Side routes she was always there. And we are later told that she did act in the background particularly when we enter the far side Akiha route.

Kelnish
May 4th, 2013, 10:15 AM
The goal was to make her seem consistent as a character. You get psycho murder bitch for 2 routes and then she is actually good and you should root for her despite her being comic book levels of blatantly evil. You get several scenes where Shirou is all like I'M SO GLAD U EXIST RIDER which of course ignores the shit she pulled in the other two routes because they didn't really happen here. But for the reader this feels very inconsistent.

Her characterization seemed consistent across the routes to me, I dunno. In HF she had a cold personality with a single minded devotion to her goal which sometimes had her commit evil acts from the readers perspective and other times had her commit evil acts from someone elses' perspective, namely Zouken's. With a single spot of warmth in the form of Sakura. As opposed to in the other routes where she had a cold personality with a single minded devotion to her goal which had her always committing evil acts from the readers perspective. Without ever interacting with a spot of warmth for her character since she only interacts with her 'master' and her enemies. Wicked inconsistent there.

Altima of the Gates
May 4th, 2013, 10:16 AM
Rider would have been a better charachter if she wasnt nailed to sakura's ass. it wasnt a bad dynamic for the fate story but it really interfered with her ability to really manifest as a real person.

Well her reasoning behind why she wants to help Sakura is her path of regret over herself and her sisters, and even then, a lot of it(and I mean a lot) is stuff Sakura doesn't really want her to do(which then grew further into the most bumbling wingman ever in Hollow, but not too bad) I say she is a real person, and pretty much disagree that her personality is flat, she just doesn't appear very expressive. So she is pretty business-like. Its really that she appears standoffish, but is really kind of apprehensive about a lot of things. Its different from Saber's "I am a tool" type of methodology.

That and the fact she is one of the only Servants who wasn't human at all(all of the Servants either were part human or were humans in their lives) was interesting.

Orange
May 4th, 2013, 10:22 AM
^^ This. Her drive was pretty awesome. I think what gets most people is the fact that she doesn't seem to regret any of her actions even the wrong ones which is something I like about her.

- - - Updated - - -

One more thing, I don't think she ever believed that she would be able to free Sakura from Zouken.

BlackField
May 4th, 2013, 10:23 AM
I didn't really like the way Nasu tried to make her moe in HF. It felt like a blatant way of appealing to otakus rather than an interesting way of adding character depth. This tall ultra hot girl who's a massive sadist is actually really clumsy and sociable and really wants to be cute, completely and utterly retarded. Worse than Saber in fate for stupid attempts at adding depth.

I actually agree with Kelnish and Altima, this could be a first. The only reason why Medusa appears good in HF is because she is now on the MCs side(and only cause of circumstances), her character isn't really inconsistent. Well apart from the moe stuff, though I suppose thats arguable.

Orange
May 4th, 2013, 10:24 AM
I didn't really like the way Nasu tried to make her moe in HF. It felt like a blatant way of appealing to otakus rather than an interesting way of adding character depth. This tall ultra hot girl who's a massive sadist is actually really clumsy and sociable and really wants to be cute, completely and utterly retarded. Worse than Saber in fate for stupid attempts at adding depth.

That was only one scene though

I3uster
May 4th, 2013, 10:25 AM
Not exactly. When you fuck up during the bad end from your first battle in school with her during the Fate route, she asks Shinji whether he wants to save Shirou's ass instead of letting him bleed out and it's only after Shinji gives the order is when she finishes you off:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhrPeITkF28
Opposed to that you have where she uses Bellerophon in a way that would kill Shirou, her saying she'd love to gouge his eyes out and her almost killing the entire school. Twice.

I guess you can see why I see her character as badly portrayed at best and just straight up bad at worst?
See, the thing is, when I finished F/SN I didn't actually think she was that bad because I reconciled what I read in the way that Medusa is just an opportunist. She wanted the grail and to have some murder kill fun, but as soon as she realized it was kind of worthless and saving Sakura was on the table she switched gears.

Then HA destroys that theory with her only being summoned because Sakura, reducing her character to liking murder and Sakura.

Nasu usually has two ways he pulls of twists, pretty standard fare, but in both cases you do have cases where he totally fucks up.

First, he just pushes the unbelievable and kind of retarded thing in your face then gradually eases you into it. See Arturia is King Arthur. It's kind of stupid the moment you reach the scene, but slowly and steadily it grows to be a central part of her character and you grow to like not only the tweeeest but also her as a character.

Or second, he foreshadows a lot and then gives you the twist as explanation. See Kohaku. Very well done, perceptive readers can call it easily.

In Rider's case he tried the latter and failed because there were so many contradictory actions that just make you go "wait what". It's not even that she has that much screen time, it's just that every time she appears it's happy fun murder time.

Sakura's case tried the former but went full retard. You can call that she's a magus and that she's abused and raped, but penis worms break suspension of disbelief.

BlackField
May 4th, 2013, 10:28 AM
That was only one scene though
At least 4. The chopstick scene, the taking of the mask scene(could be the same as the last one), the height scene, don't pronounce my name the same way as Saber did scene and probably a couple more.

Orange
May 4th, 2013, 10:30 AM
The only scene where I felt that Nasu attempted Moe was the height scene. The rest pretty much felt like normal conversation to me.

Tobias
May 4th, 2013, 10:32 AM
But once she is no longer nailed to her in HA it doesn't change much, does it?

I always get the feeling Nasu tried way too hard with the twist that she was actually good after showing her as completely ruthless for two routes. And then continues to show her as ruthless for 50% of HF. Because the feeling that she is actually well-intentioned hangs really strongly on if you really like Sakura at that point. And HF doesn't exactly deliver on that front, at least in my opinion.

It was a gamble that didn't pay off. The reverse Nasu can do quite well, see Kohaku.


she remains firmly nailed to ass in HA, its just somewhat less obvious.

I3uster
May 4th, 2013, 10:33 AM
Well, SAKURASAKURASAKURA is kind of her defining characteristic so I guess I can't fault Nasu for doing that.

That and murder.

Altima of the Gates
May 4th, 2013, 10:33 AM
I didn't really like the way Nasu tried to make her moe in HF. It felt like a blatant way of appealing to otakus rather than an interesting way of adding character depth. This tall ultra hot girl who's a massive sadist is actually really clumsy and sociable and really wants to be cute, completely and utterly retarded. Worse than Saber in fate for stupid attempts at adding depth.



Well, even when she is acting that way, it always showed that she was not really a people person, since Shirou goes on and on about how clumsy it is. And "moe" is being used wrong here, since its not really such a general term, some people don't find clumsiness moe, some do. Subjectivity there. I don't really feel she is moe, but Nasu would, but then again, he finds Fujino the supreme form of moe, so there you go.

Like when they have breakfast one morning, and Shirou gets the choice of inviting her to the table. The right choice shows Shirou saying that she makes him uncomfortable because she whipped his ass so systematically, but that they would try to get along ad allies for now. And the many times that she actually scares him. So the "moe" parts, at least to me, highlight how uncomfortable she is with humans, and her general unsociable behavior.
@I3uster

I don't think he was trying to display her as good in general, based on how he showed Chaotic Good with some characters. She has ber own philosophy of things, but can be reasoned with in some cases to change that philosophy because of her capricious nature.

BlackField
May 4th, 2013, 10:34 AM
The only scene where I felt that Nasu attempted Moe was the height scene. The rest pretty much felt like normal conversation to me.
Felt like weakening the strong chick so the otaku can have their wish fulfilment to me. The scenes only attempted to show her being clumsy and vulnerable not to show her doing normal things. A few of them are fine on their own but together they paint a sadder story, especially when they're pretty much all the non-combat scenes we see of her.

Tobias
May 4th, 2013, 10:34 AM
Well, SAKURASAKURASAKURA is kind of her defining characteristic

I feel like we are saying the same things yet having different conversations.

Orange
May 4th, 2013, 10:35 AM
Opposed to that you have where she uses Bellerophon in a way that would kill Shirou, her saying she'd love to gouge his eyes out and her almost killing the entire school. Twice.

I guess you can see why I see her character as badly portrayed at best and just straight up bad at worst?
See, the thing is, when I finished F/SN I didn't actually think she was that bad because I reconciled what I read in the way that Medusa is just an opportunist. She wanted the grail and to have some murder kill fun, but as soon as she realized it was kind of worthless and saving Sakura was on the table she switched gears.

Then HA destroys that theory with her only being summoned because Sakura, reducing her character to liking murder and Sakura.

Nasu usually has two ways he pulls of twists, pretty standard fare, but in both cases you do have cases where he totally fucks up.

First, he just pushes the unbelievable and kind of retarded thing in your face then gradually eases you into it. See Arturia is King Arthur. It's kind of stupid the moment you reach the scene, but slowly and steadily it grows to be a central part of her character and you grow to like not only the tweeeest but also her as a character.

Or second, he foreshadows a lot and then gives you the twist as explanation. See Kohaku. Very well done, perceptive readers can call it easily.

In Rider's case he tried the latter and failed because there were so many contradictory actions that just make you go "wait what". It's not even that she has that much screen time, it's just that every time she appears it's happy fun murder time.

Sakura's case tried the former but went full retard. You can call that she's a magus and that she's abused and raped, but penis worms break suspension of disbelief.

Once again Rider does not care about anyone other than Sakura, It's never stated even in HF that she was a good person and I never attempted to see her as such. In the other two routes the only time we see her is when she fights, it stands to reason that she would be sadistic during those times. Just because a person is sadistic in a fight doesn't mean she'll be like that all the time.

She simply does not care about collateral damage as long as her aims are met which is true in HF as well. I personally felt that her character was pretty consistent throughout.

I3uster
May 4th, 2013, 10:40 AM
You could call it "vulnerable" I guess.

It's an attempt at humanizing her and making you sympathize with her, which feels inconsistent for me when compared to the other routes.

Not that the character in itself is inconsistent, because if we really take her as one-dimensional "must save sakura" puppet it all makes sense, but the way you are eased into liking her just didn't work for me at all.

She wants to do the same thing you want to do so nevermind the sadism is just a really clumsy way off pulling it off.
Cu's momentary side switching worked better than Medusa did for the entire route, imo.

- - - Updated - - -


I feel like we are saying the same things yet having different conversations.

Slightly different. You say she'd be interesting without SAKURASAKURASAKURA, I say there's barely anything left when you take that away.

Hell, her backstory was pretty much tailor made to reinforce SAKURASAKURASAKURA, it doesn't really add much beyond that.

- - - Updated - - -


Once again Rider does not care about anyone other than Sakura, It's never stated even in HF that she was a good person and I never attempted to see her as such. In the other two routes the only time we see her is when she fights, it stands to reason that she would be sadistic during those times. Just because a person is sadistic in a fight doesn't mean she'll be like that all the time.

She simply does not care about collateral damage as long as her aims are met which is true in HF as well. I personally felt that her character was pretty consistent throughout.
Exactly.

And still Nasu tries to humanize her and make you like her, and that is the inconsistency I am feeling.
Her character works, I just feel that I don't feel what Nasu wanted me to on her, that is sympathize with her.

Same thing happens to a minor extent with Medea.

Orange
May 4th, 2013, 10:43 AM
You've gotten it wrong, I never said I wanted to save Sakura, I would've probably been entertained by a full route of Mind Of Steel.

I like Sakura, this does not mean I have particular interest in wanting her saved or not. You could say HF was extremely entertaining for me because there were no right choices to be made.

I never brushed off her sadism. I like sadism because as unfortunate as it is I enjoy watching people get crushed physically as well as emotionally. It's pretty much the height of amusement for me.

terraablaze
May 4th, 2013, 10:43 AM
It's always been SAKURA!

Times it has not been SAKURA: 0%
Times it has been: 100%

Tobias
May 4th, 2013, 10:43 AM
Slightly different. You say she'd be interesting without SAKURASAKURASAKURA, I say there's barely anything left when you take that away.



I define that as the problem.

I3uster
May 4th, 2013, 10:47 AM
You see potential, I don't.

Rider makes me angry. Not because she is supposed to. There are characters that you as the reader are supposed to hate. Kotomine, Gilgamesh, Zouken, Roa, Makihisa, whatever. Nasu humanizes them to add depth but they remain antagonistic.

Rider just fails on what he tried to do so whenever she appears it feels like another mosquito bite because you see what he tried to do but the way it is presented just keeps on grating and so she kills immersion.

Blastedspider
May 4th, 2013, 10:47 AM
Slightly different. You say she'd be interesting without SAKURASAKURASAKURA, I say there's barely anything left when you take that away.
What about throat-slicing and eye-gorging?
I felt that non-bad end storyline lacks such things.

Seika
May 4th, 2013, 11:02 AM
I agree. As always, blame Sakura....

*Waits for the wrath of Mike

He really is gone...
This isn't even funny or interesting when people who actually dealt with Mike did it, never mind someone who regged months after he was banned.

Zenieth
May 4th, 2013, 11:03 AM
yeah if you take away Sakura, you got a monster who I'd say most definitely revels in destruction and sadism more than other Fate characters.

ZZ-3000
May 4th, 2013, 11:04 AM
You see potential, I don't.

Rider makes me angry. Not because she is supposed to. There are characters that you as the reader are supposed to hate. Kotomine, Gilgamesh, Zouken, Roa, Makihisa, whatever. Nasu humanizes them to add depth but they remain antagonistic.

Rider just fails on what he tried to do so whenever she appears it feels like another mosquito bite because you see what he tried to do but the way it is presented just keeps on grating and so she kills immersion.

What you described there is the exact same way I feel about Illya after Shirou's battle with Berserker during the Fate route, or just Illya in general. She just tried to violently murder both Saber and Rin, was planning to torture you after she murders them in front you and then finish you off once she's done having her amusement. What does Shirou do as soon as Heracles is defeated? Adopts her as his own little sister as if everything was honky-dory from the beginning. I think the criticism you made feels more valid towards Illya than Rider. Yes, Rider has her fun with you during the bad end in UBW, but that's only because Shirou insulted her capabilities as a servant. I remember plenty of times where Saber has acted antagonistic when somebody mouthed off to her and promised "they'll regret saying that" during Fate/Zero and yet she's the paragon of virtue. I never felt Nasu tried to make you sympathize with Rider, just show her motive. In HA, she even refers to herself as "a monster" in the most frank way possible. Shirou's accepting of Rider is more his own naive idiocy rather than Nasu trying to promote her.

Kelnish
May 4th, 2013, 11:05 AM
You see potential, I don't.

Rider makes me angry. Not because she is supposed to. There are characters that you as the reader are supposed to hate. Kotomine, Gilgamesh, Zouken, Roa, Makihisa, whatever. Nasu humanizes them to add depth but they remain antagonistic.

Rider just fails on what he tried to do so whenever she appears it feels like another mosquito bite because you see what he tried to do but the way it is presented just keeps on grating and so she kills immersion.

I don't. Because I thought what he was trying to do was create a character who compartmentalizes. You know, like a lot of killers do. Friends get your "home" personality, enemies get your "killer" personality. From that perspective I never noticed an inconsistency in her characterization? Her poor social skills in a peaceful environment are a result of having limited social experiences being a rehabilitated monster and all; her being cold and ruthless in a potential/actual combat environment are a result of having a storied history of killing the shit out of everything she saw being a rehabilitated monster and all.

Orange
May 4th, 2013, 11:09 AM
^^Exactly. The reason I'm arguing these points is because of the vague implication that I should dislike certain characters and the fact that I should accept that they were badly developed.

I really liked Rider and Sakura as characters and I have already outlined my reasons for the same. I'm not trying to make you like them I'm just giving you my opinion.

I3uster
May 4th, 2013, 11:09 AM
So you think she was supposed to be seen as a sociopath?

Because the clumsy moe and the UR STRONG RIDAH scenes...don't give me that image. At all.
Like, I can see why you would see it but I don't think that this was Nasu's intention, kind of like with my opportunist theory.

Kotonoha
May 4th, 2013, 11:09 AM
Fun fact, this topic came about because we were all going "Rider is a terrible character she sucks" in IRC and realized not one person was defending her (apart from "I like her because tits").

Tobias
May 4th, 2013, 11:10 AM
hey, thats a damn fine reason to like her.

Altima of the Gates
May 4th, 2013, 11:11 AM
You see potential, I don't.

Rider makes me angry. Not because she is supposed to. There are characters that you as the reader are supposed to hate. Kotomine, Gilgamesh, Zouken, Roa, Makihisa, whatever. Nasu humanizes them to add depth but they remain antagonistic.

Rider just fails on what he tried to do so whenever she appears it feels like another mosquito bite because you see what he tried to do but the way it is presented just keeps on grating and so she kills immersion.

I think I understand where you're coming from, but I disagree.

Her motivations may seem to center on Sakura, but it seems like a good deal of that is still her regretting her own misfortune in life, and then refocusing that and projecting onto Sakura. Just like her core personality entails, she does what she wants most of the time and when the mood strikes her, despite what her protectorate wants. She is ruled by her emotions basically. Even in Hollow, she embarasses Sakura and doesn't really think about what she does is helpful or not(like picking her up bodily and groping her in front of Shirou, when they have a talk about breast size, in her attempt to 'help').

She is still oppurtinistic, still calculating, but it's more than that. I liken her to what you would expect from nature spirits who happen to like/become attached to a human. Usually that doesn't work out that well, but her personality is very Fae like. And it really doesn't seem that different from how she was in F/SN, but just in a relaxed environment. I don't know what you were expecting, but imo, she isn't that different in Hollow, personality wise.

I3uster
May 4th, 2013, 11:12 AM
I think I understand where you're coming from, but I disagree.

great.

Zenieth
May 4th, 2013, 11:12 AM
Rider is pretty sociopath like when you think about it.

Kelnish
May 4th, 2013, 11:14 AM
Fun fact, this topic came about because we were all going "Rider is a terrible character she sucks" in IRC and realized not one person was defending her (apart from "I like her because tits").

So groupthink happens in a relatively stable community? Amazing.

I3uster
May 4th, 2013, 11:14 AM
#notes usually has shouting matches when people disagree though.

It's just that nobody likes Rider.

ZZ-3000
May 4th, 2013, 11:20 AM
Are we really going to enter a conversation whether Rider is a sociopath or not? The story is set within a battle royal. Over half the characters have sociopathic tendencies. You need a certain lack of empathy when killing an enemy. I always saw Rider as "just following orders, nothing personal". Her sadistic tendencies were only her when she was provoked.

Zenieth
May 4th, 2013, 11:21 AM
Where was it said that others weren't sociopaths?

Kotonoha
May 4th, 2013, 11:22 AM
So groupthink happens in a relatively stable community? Amazing.
This was happening in the middle of an angry fight to the death over whether Hyuy's waifu was ugly (she is (http://static.zerochan.net/Mitsurugi.Meiya.full.1121035.jpg)) so it was just funny for everyone to suddenly unanimously agree on something.

SeiKeo
May 4th, 2013, 11:23 AM
Are we really going to enter a conversation whether Rider is a sociopath or not? The story is set within a battle royal. Over half the characters have sociopathic tendencies. You need a certain lack of empathy when killing an enemy. I always saw Rider as "just following orders, nothing personal". Her sadistic tendencies were only her when she was provoked.

I'm just orgasming from gouging your eyes out, nothing personal.

ZZ-3000
May 4th, 2013, 11:23 AM
No where. I just felt you were stating the obvious.

I3uster
May 4th, 2013, 11:23 AM
This was happening in the middle of an angry fight to the death over whether Hyuy's waifu was ugly (she is (http://static.zerochan.net/Mitsurugi.Meiya.full.1121035.jpg)) so it was just funny for everyone to suddenly unanimously agree on something.

TACTICAL HAIR INTAKES ARE A ENGINEERING CHOICE AND NOT UGLY

terraablaze
May 4th, 2013, 11:24 AM
This was happening in the middle of an angry fight to the death over whether Hyuy's waifu was ugly (she is (http://static.zerochan.net/Mitsurugi.Meiya.full.1121035.jpg)) so it was just funny for everyone to suddenly unanimously agree on something.

Quick note but zerochan is saying no no so I can't look at the exact image you are talking about.

ZZ-3000
May 4th, 2013, 11:24 AM
I'm just orgasming from gouging your eyes out, nothing personal.

Sure. Whatever gets you off.

Kelnish
May 4th, 2013, 11:24 AM
I'm just orgasming from gouging your eyes out, nothing personal.

That's a fetishist, not a sociopath.

I3uster
May 4th, 2013, 11:25 AM
Quick note but zerochan is saying no no so I can't look at the exact image you are talking about.

It's Meiya from Muv Luv.

terraablaze
May 4th, 2013, 11:25 AM
I know, but I thought there might be something particularly glaring about the image she posted.

Zenieth
May 4th, 2013, 11:26 AM
No where. I just felt you were stating the obvious.

Felt I was stating the obvious and yet go on to try and make a rebuttal against it?

BlackField
May 4th, 2013, 11:28 AM
This was happening in the middle of an angry fight to the death over whether Hyuy's waifu was ugly (she is (http://static.zerochan.net/Mitsurugi.Meiya.full.1121035.jpg)) so it was just funny for everyone to suddenly unanimously agree on something.
Would people really be willing to have two arguments at once? People generally don't like fighting that much and this is me talking.

I actually like Rider, more than I do the 3 main heroines at least.

terraablaze
May 4th, 2013, 11:29 AM
Blackfield you be crazy.

Kelnish
May 4th, 2013, 11:29 AM
Best Fate/Stay Night girl has always and will always be party-girl who gets eaten by Zouken.

ZZ-3000
May 4th, 2013, 11:30 AM
I like her too, but agree with Tobias and l3uster that if you take away Sakura, there isn't much left in terms of her involvement in the main story.

Kotonoha
May 4th, 2013, 11:30 AM
I know, but I thought there might be something particularly glaring about the image she posted.
Well it is an extreme close up of her face.

Seika
May 4th, 2013, 11:37 AM
It doesn't like being directly referred from another site. Go to zerochan's homepage, then enter the address Koto gave. (F5 is probably necessary).

Break
May 4th, 2013, 11:38 AM
its kind of funny (in a sad way) that, even though nobody particularly likes Rider, there are more Rider-doujins than Rin, Sakura, Illya, Caren and Bazett doujins combined. WHY?

ZZ-3000
May 4th, 2013, 11:39 AM
.....bigger boobs?

BlackField
May 4th, 2013, 11:39 AM
Blackfield you be crazy.
Just for you, I'll rank all the girls to appear in F/SN, Zero and HA.
Bazett>all the plebs>Sakura=Saber=Rin

Neir
May 4th, 2013, 11:39 AM
its kind of funny (in a sad way) that, even though nobody particularly likes Rider, there are more Rider-doujins than Rin, Sakura, Illya, Caren and Bazett doujins combined. WHY?

Tits.

Rider, like Sakura, is meant to be a sexpot.

Orange
May 4th, 2013, 11:40 AM
its kind of funny (in a sad way) that, even though nobody particularly likes Rider, there are more Rider-doujins than Rin, Sakura, Illya, Caren and Bazett doujins combined. WHY?

Her looks might have something to do with it.

I3uster
May 4th, 2013, 11:40 AM
Considering some of them are brutal anal rape and getting fucked by a dog...

Tobias
May 4th, 2013, 11:40 AM
I think its cause that one doujin circle with the really great art picked her up. they have done like what, 15 now of those rider and shirou ones now?

the only one who has any real consistancy is that rape rin doujin circle and I may be in the minority when I say this but their are sucks ass.

Neir
May 4th, 2013, 11:41 AM
Fffffffffffffff mtsp

Break
May 4th, 2013, 11:42 AM
Just for you, I'll rank all the girls to appear in F/SN, Zero and HA.
Bazett>all the plebs>Sakura=Saber=Rin

you forgot Illya, your opinion has been deemed shit.

I3uster
May 4th, 2013, 11:42 AM
I love MTSP doujins, but fuck their newest one.

Tohsaka is in your title and you don't put Tohsaka in there ;_;

terraablaze
May 4th, 2013, 11:43 AM
Just for you, I'll rank all the girls to appear in F/SN, Zero and HA.
Bazett>all the plebs>Sakura=Saber=Rin

You less crazy now but you still crazy if you think Rin is below the likes of Sola.

Tobias
May 4th, 2013, 11:44 AM
Fffffffffffffff mtsp

*googles*

oh yeah, them. yeah, their art is shit.

BlackField
May 4th, 2013, 11:45 AM
You less crazy now but you still crazy if you think Rin is below the likes of Sola.
Sola has bigger boobs. She wins on that basis alone.

- - - Updated - - -


you forgot Illya, your opinion has been deemed shit.
Shes a pleb. Deal with it lolifanatic.

Kotonoha
May 4th, 2013, 11:47 AM
*googles*

oh yeah, them. yeah, their art is shit.
Really? I think it's pretty good. Content aside.

Kelnish
May 4th, 2013, 11:49 AM
So does elf. Common factor? Presumably ovaries.

I agree with Tobias, the art isn't all the great.

terraablaze
May 4th, 2013, 11:49 AM
Well it is an extreme close up of her face.


It doesn't like being directly referred from another site. Go to zerochan's homepage, then enter the address Koto gave. (F5 is probably necessary).
Thanks.

Yeah the close ups for the mandatory kiss scene are always terrible for some reason.

Break
May 4th, 2013, 11:51 AM
Shes a pleb. Deal with it lolifanatic.

you silly.

I3uster
May 4th, 2013, 11:52 AM
I don't know what over F/SN doujins you read because MTSP probably has the best art after UDON-YA.

Because UDON-YA is a god.

Break
May 4th, 2013, 11:54 AM
*looks up mtsp* hm their art is.. unusual.
Rubbish Selection Squad (Namonashi) is probably the best circle for Saber doujins, quantity-wise. they make both hardcore and vanilla (they seem to take turns with it) and also made doujins for Ryougi and Alice Kuonji, as well a ssome Nanoha-ones.

I3uster
May 4th, 2013, 11:55 AM
RSS draw super lolified and weird heads.

Kelnish
May 4th, 2013, 11:56 AM
I don't know what over F/SN doujins you read because MTSP probably has the best art after UDON-YA.

Because UDON-YA is a god.

... since when do I have to grade things on a scale? A well formed log is better than diarrhea, but it's still shit.

Break
May 4th, 2013, 11:58 AM
RSS draw super lolified and weird heads.

you think so? personnaly i like em. though their later work is obviously very noticeably better drawn than their earlier works.

I3uster
May 4th, 2013, 11:59 AM
Usually art is bad by comparison because judging art in a vacuum kind of makes no sense.

Tobias
May 4th, 2013, 12:02 PM
Really? I think it's pretty good. Content aside.


its their faces. well, the bodies arent that great either, but something about the way they draw faces makes me want to go screaming in terror. we are talking literal haunting-of-nightmares class ass face drawing.

Zenieth
May 4th, 2013, 12:03 PM
There's something ironic in Break making that statement.

Kelnish
May 4th, 2013, 12:05 PM
Usually art is bad by comparison because judging art in a vacuum kind of makes no sense.

In this case the gold-standard is professional chinese cartoons.

And why would it make no sense? Personal aesthetic preference is the way I judge them, which is independent of different works other than saying that I like the way x is drawn over y. I can't articulate what it is I don't like, I just don't like.

I3uster
May 4th, 2013, 12:06 PM
Because I can't argue about personal preference.

BlackField
May 4th, 2013, 12:08 PM
l3uster your signature makes so much more sense in the light of this thread. Food would've stopped this nonsense.

Break
May 4th, 2013, 12:10 PM
There's something ironic in Break making that statement.

........................

- - - Updated - - -


l3uster your signature makes so much more sense in the light of this thread. Food would've stopped this nonsense.

well discussing the art in doujins is pretty good topic material, since while some doujins are shittily drawn, there are quite alot of artists with very gorgeous and artful styles.

DezoPenguin
May 4th, 2013, 12:13 PM
Her characterization seemed consistent across the routes to me, I dunno. In HF she had a cold personality with a single minded devotion to her goal which sometimes had her commit evil acts from the readers perspective and other times had her commit evil acts from someone elses' perspective, namely Zouken's. With a single spot of warmth in the form of Sakura. As opposed to in the other routes where she had a cold personality with a single minded devotion to her goal which had her always committing evil acts from the readers perspective. Without ever interacting with a spot of warmth for her character since she only interacts with her 'master' and her enemies. Wicked inconsistent there.


I didn't really like the way Nasu tried to make her moe in HF. It felt like a blatant way of appealing to otakus rather than an interesting way of adding character depth. This tall ultra hot girl who's a massive sadist is actually really clumsy and sociable and really wants to be cute, completely and utterly retarded. Worse than Saber in fate for stupid attempts at adding depth.

I actually agree with Kelnish and Altima, this could be a first. The only reason why Medusa appears good in HF is because she is now on the MCs side(and only cause of circumstances), her character isn't really inconsistent. Well apart from the moe stuff, though I suppose thats arguable.


I don't. Because I thought what he was trying to do was create a character who compartmentalizes. You know, like a lot of killers do. Friends get your "home" personality, enemies get your "killer" personality. From that perspective I never noticed an inconsistency in her characterization? Her poor social skills in a peaceful environment are a result of having limited social experiences being a rehabilitated monster and all; her being cold and ruthless in a potential/actual combat environment are a result of having a storied history of killing the shit out of everything she saw being a rehabilitated monster and all.

And I completely agree with Kelnish, Altima, and BlackField. (Are we sure this is the Internet? Oh, wait, I still disagree with I3uster, so we're still good.) I don't see anything inconsistent going on here. She was a monster. Moreover--she's one of the legendary servants who didn't "really" exist, so it's not at all surprising that she'd be a monster. Sakura's personal situation matched up kinda sorta with her own legend, so she showed up to try to help, so duh that would be her highest priority since it's her whole reason for being there in the first place. Otherwise it's all perspective--whether she's on the protagonist/reader's side or not in any given scene or route.

And the moe crap is definitely stupid otaku wish fulfillment 'cause otaku can't handle the concept of strong women who aren't actually weak and squishy inside. Though if Sakura and Shirou would just move to Europe or the Americas that would take care of her height issues since she's only 5'7". Poor social skills fit well with her environment and backstory, though, as Kelnish observed.

She's absolutely not a "good person" from some abstract moral perspective (Nasuverse alignments aside). She can be completely ruthless to people who oppose her goals and friendly and caring to people she likes (but still willing to stick them in the neck if the look like they're going to knife Sakura). Whether that makes her neutral or evil depends on your perspective of evil (does having the capacity to commit murder in pursuit of your goals count, or do the goals themselves have to be actively evil as well?).

Altima of the Gates
May 4th, 2013, 12:19 PM
its kind of funny (in a sad way) that, even though nobody particularly likes Rider, there are more Rider-doujins than Rin, Sakura, Illya, Caren and Bazett doujins combined. WHY?


I would say there are more doujins of her than some of the others individually, but combined? Nope.

And there is the fact that tons of doujins go without being scanned as well.

Break
May 4th, 2013, 12:23 PM
well thats true of course.
still she sure has a lot, compared to actual heroines like Illya and Sakura who dont really got many at all. (well loli sakura has a bunch because of F/Z (which somehow also led to a bunch of 4th war Illya doujins which i reeaaaally dont know how i should feel about.)

Zenieth
May 4th, 2013, 12:29 PM
Illya has a route now?

Break
May 4th, 2013, 12:31 PM
Illya has a route now?

AGFGHADAGHK

Altima of the Gates
May 4th, 2013, 12:37 PM
well loli sakura has a bunch because of F/Z (which somehow also led to a bunch of 4th war Illya doujins which i reeaaaally dont know how i should feel about.)

I don't even know where to begin with this, so I won't.

@Dezo

Yeah, that was why I attributed her to what one thinks of with nature spirits. Beings who often do cruel things in stories as their thinking was fundamanetally different from human. And she is the only Servant who wasn't human from the beginning, or even real technically. Which makes things complicated on many levels in terms of personal identity if her memories are fabrications.

Break
May 4th, 2013, 12:40 PM
well on one side im glad Illya got more art, on the other isde i would prefer it if it was FSN's Illya and i dont even know why those artists chose to go for FZ illya since she really doesnt do anything there.

BlackField
May 4th, 2013, 12:44 PM
Break there is a hole, you are in it, you have a shovel, you are shovelling, do I need to go any further with this?

Break
May 4th, 2013, 12:47 PM
Break there is a hole, you are in it, you have a shovel, you are shovelling, do I need to go any further with this?

Are you trieng to say you prefer 8-year old Illya over 18-year old Illya? because if so you should feel bad.
Just to make it clear, i have been saying the opposite of that. Note that.

I3uster
May 4th, 2013, 12:50 PM
Can we extend the terrible two to the terrible triple and include Break?

We can also exclude Blastedspider since he kinda stopped posting.

Spinach
May 4th, 2013, 12:52 PM
BlastedSpider's lack of activity is kind of making his position weak as the first of the Terrible Two. You know what, I'm in favor of it. Not that I care about Break's tastes, because they don't even seem weird to me, but because Break refuses to make pretty posts with punctuation.

Break
May 4th, 2013, 12:57 PM
Can we extend the terrible two to the terrible triple and include Break?

We can also exclude Blastedspider since he kinda stopped posting.

who are the other two?

- - - Updated - - -


BlastedSpider's lack of activity is kind of making his position weak as the first of the Terrible Two. You know what, I'm in favor of it. Not that I care about Break's tastes, because they don't even seem weird to me, but because Break refuses to make pretty posts with punctuation.

I really do'nt get why you guys care so much about capitalized sentence starts but okay, if its that important to you i'll start remembering it.

Kelnish
May 4th, 2013, 01:02 PM
No one actually cares. Other than Seika. But no one cares that she cares. It's just easy to make fun of you for it and we're jerks.

Break
May 4th, 2013, 01:03 PM
...I knew it.

Tobias
May 4th, 2013, 01:05 PM
Hell I never capitalize anything either unless my phone does it for me. Then again I don't know who or what the terrible two thing is either so I guess I might be one of them.

Spinach
May 4th, 2013, 01:05 PM
who are the other two?

BlackField and Blastedspider.

Altima of the Gates
May 4th, 2013, 01:05 PM
No one actually cares. Other than Seika. But no one cares that she cares. It's just easy to make fun of you for it and we're jerks.



Not really the taste, but his argument about age kinda falls flat when he implied being okay with doujins of a five year old over an eight year old.

The logic, it does not work.

SeiKeo
May 4th, 2013, 01:05 PM
Well I care, just not enough to try to ban you.

Break
May 4th, 2013, 01:12 PM
Not really the taste, but his argument about age kinda falls flat when he implied being okay with doujins of a five year old over an eight year old.

The logic, it does not work.

Thats because its Sakura; she is canonically like that so its not really that much of an issue.

ZZ-3000
May 4th, 2013, 01:13 PM
I don't even know where to begin with this, so I won't.

@Dezo

Yeah, that was why I attributed her to what one thinks of with nature spirits. Beings who often do cruel things in stories as their thinking was fundamanetally different from human. And she is the only Servant who wasn't human from the beginning, or even real technically. Which makes things complicated on many levels in terms of personal identity if her memories are fabrications.

Isn't Kojiro the only fake servant in this story? I thought characters from greek mythology existed in the Nasuverse, or gorgons at the very least.

Kelnish
May 4th, 2013, 01:15 PM
Thats because its Sakura; she is canonically like that so its not really that much of an issue.

Like what?

---edit---

^certain characters never really existed but spontaneously came into existence on the throne because reasons. See seika's stalker doc

Break
May 4th, 2013, 01:15 PM
Isn't Kojiro the only fake servant in this story? I thought characters from greek mythology existed in the Nasuverse, or gorgons at the very least.

Kojiro is a special case; Medea and Herc are "fictional heroes" who were basically made by their legends like some gods, unlike people like Saber and Gil who really lived. We do'nt really know if it applies to Medusa, but since she is greek and a Goddess, maybe?

- - - Updated - - -


Like what?

ask Kariya.

Altima of the Gates
May 4th, 2013, 01:22 PM
Like what?

---edit---

^certain characters never really existed but spontaneously came into existence on the throne because reasons. See seika's stalker doc

He is implying that she must have been sexually frustrated as a child despite there being no evidence of that, porn justification basically.

And yeah, aren't Herc and Medusa the only fictional Servants?

Kojiro was based off someone real, so there was something solid to him while it wasn't for Herc or Medusa, does anyone have the quote?

Break
May 4th, 2013, 01:27 PM
No, what i was implieng was that Zouken was already doing all kinds of things to her with his worms in canon anyways, and fed one of them to Kariya. Since it happens in canon anyways im pretty much fine with Doujins taking it up was what i was saying.

Altima of the Gates
May 4th, 2013, 01:37 PM
Yep, porn justification. It doesn't show the near death or suffocation either. So you're just digging a hole there.

ZZ-3000
May 4th, 2013, 01:40 PM
He is implying that she must have been sexually frustrated as a child despite there being no evidence of that, porn justification basically.

And yeah, aren't Herc and Medusa the only fictional Servants?

Kojiro was based off someone real, so there was something solid to him while it wasn't for Herc or Medusa, does anyone have the quote?

According to the wiki, kojirou is more of a wraith that assumed the personality of the myth that was based on Sasaki Kojirou, who was never proved to exist in the first place. And the gorgons are listed under phantasmal species, which is why I was wondering whether she was a fictional character within the story or really existed at one point during the history of the Nasuverse (this is just me reading from the wiki, so feel free to correct me)

I3uster
May 4th, 2013, 01:44 PM
Remember kids, fapping to 5 year olds getting raped is all cool if it happens in canon.

Mcjon01
May 4th, 2013, 01:49 PM
Kojiro is a special case; Medea and Herc are "fictional heroes" who were basically made by their legends like some gods, unlike people like Saber and Gil who really lived. We do'nt really know if it applies to Medusa, but since she is greek and a Goddess, maybe?

Being intentionally vague so as to not spoil anything, but certain parts of CCC seem to vindicate (or at least support) my theory that the transition from one Age to the next renders everything that doesn't conform to the new "order" fictional. Particularly where it deals with gods, physics, and phenomena.

Break
May 4th, 2013, 01:52 PM
You mean the thing with the laws of physics changing between the AoG and the AoM, right?

Mcjon01
May 4th, 2013, 01:53 PM
You mean the thing with the laws of physics changing between the AoG and the AoM, right?

Yes.

Altima of the Gates
May 4th, 2013, 01:56 PM
Wait wut, so does that mean the change of magic itself could be a part of that?
So then what really caused the downfall of the Age of Gods to that extent? Did the world just say, "Fuck Gods/Phantasmal Creatures" without warning, even when they are technically part and parcel of the natural order?

Mcjon01
May 4th, 2013, 01:58 PM
Well. Cutting out all the spoilery bits, mankind did it. Like always.

terraablaze
May 4th, 2013, 02:01 PM
So what's up with Gilgamesh getting to stay totally for realz then?

Mcjon01
May 4th, 2013, 02:02 PM
Keystones and spearheads and Gilgamesh is always special, ALWAYS. Also he has a NP for that.

Break
May 4th, 2013, 02:02 PM
The more advanced mankind gets, the more does magic detoriate and the gods lose power. Gil led them on in getting independant, too.

peanuts
May 4th, 2013, 02:04 PM
It's not even all that spoilerish, but here's Reiu's translation:



Four thousand and some hundred years ago.
The human civilization was on the cusp of its first transition.

Many of the ancient began to weaken;
a handful of the new began to burgeon.

The previously brimming mystery dwindled as human knowledge advanced,
and the laws of the universe on this planet began to shift little by little
towards the physical laws of today.

As the state of the earth becomes something defined,
it became difficult for Divine and Phantasmal Beasts to move freely on the land.

The gods who had bore the principles of the atmosphere lost their directivity
and were beginning to return to pure phenomena.

In other words, this was the beginning of the age of the primates.

Break
May 4th, 2013, 02:06 PM
So what's up with Gilgamesh getting to stay totally for realz then?

Because he is 1/3 human, lived as human, and pretty much led humans against gods. Also he was made right at the start of AoM.

Altima of the Gates
May 4th, 2013, 02:10 PM
Well. Cutting out all the spoilery bits, mankind did it. Like always.


So just lobotomize the humans and you're set. Geez Gods, you're slipping.

Mcjon01
May 4th, 2013, 02:11 PM
So just lobotomize the humans and you're set. Geez Gods, you're slipping.

They tried, but the guy they contracted out to do it turned right around and fucked 'em hard in the asshole.

ZZ-3000
May 4th, 2013, 02:13 PM
So, characters/phantasmal beasts are only as real as to the extent mankind believed in them? I'm confused :sader: