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Altima of the Gates
October 22nd, 2012, 08:01 PM
We, the Administrative and Moderator Teams as a whole have come to a decision. After long debate we have decided that this is the Final “Ultimatum” for Mike1984. We have counted multiple times were we have issued multiple warnings, even tried peaceful discussion, and have had little or no results.

Beast’s Lair has lost many members due to Mike’s actions and open hostility. Multiple members have left the board altogether while others who were original posters rarely venture onto BL anymore due to Mike’s open aggression on subject matters concerning, or those he forcefully concerns, Sakura. It has gotten to the point where BL has gathered infamy, and not of a positive note, due to Mike’s belligerent conduct.

He has made his vehement distaste for the Admin and Mods publically known to the point of insulting us in blog posts or in open discussion. We understand that there are other members baiting Mike, but he goes far beyond a reasonable response for being baited. Most of our users are rather peaceful, but we do try to deal with the “Bad Eggs” as they come along. Case in point, Crying_Vegeta.

However, if Mike’s complaints aren’t immediately dealt with he flies off the handle and calls us unfair, and when we have to deal with him he calls us “fascists” and “Jackboot and Nazi Uniform Wearing”. We have explained time and time again we deal with things as a committee. We bring things up to vote and most of us have outside lives of the forum. I am often called to work mandatory overtime at my job for example and it’s not uncommon for me to work several 10 hour days during the work week and occasionally a Saturday as well.

Despite all of this, Mike continues to act in a hostile nature in the following cases in point:

He makes new fanfiction writers uncomfortable. Fanfiction is fanfiction, it is a work made by a fan for other fans on subject matter they enjoy. Which may not include Sakura. Handing out constructive criticism if she’s not characterized properly is one thing, but flaming is not appropriate. If one cannot find anything constructive to say, then simply leave. Demanding a character be injected in a fic if he or she doesn’t belong doesn’t do any good. Especially if the Author doesn’t know how to “handle” said character nor had any plans for them in their story.

We have seen multiple cases where Mike has gotten antagonistic about the treatment or lack of treatment that writers have given Sakura in their fanfiction. It has gotten to the point where new Authors who would have positive and entertaining content uncomfortable to post here. Which is something we do not want. Our fanfiction community is perhaps the busiest part of the site. We want people to feel welcome here.

Sadly, berating authors to include a certain character and flaming their works does not invite positive activity.

If something is writing something that you don’t like, don’t read it. Simple as that. Don’t bully someone simply because you don’t like what they write. That’s a waste of your time and the author’s.

Being hostile to the Admins and Mods. This was already mentioned above, but I’ll go into more detail here. We have lives and aren’t on line 24-7, our names are neither Clark Kent or Bruce Wayne. Everyone gets a response, but there maybe a few hour wait time. Flying off the handle if a response is not given within minutes is severely unreasonable.

Then when we have to make a decision against Mike’s behavior after he’s become aggressive and antagonistic, we are automatically called facists, Nazis, and unfair. Even though those of us who are his friends, such as Altima and myself, have given him chances and friendly warnings to cool down, but they’re not heeded. Then when we do have to, regrettably, step down we are automatically insulted and harassed about having to do our jobs to keep peace on the forum.

Honestly, any other forum would have banned him a long time ago. However we have given him multiple chances to change, and he has promised that he would change. Yet we have not seen that promise take effect yet even after we’ve given him admittedly special consideration that we may not have given other members. We’ve bent over backwards trying to help him, but it’s been a thankless task and made already stressful lives even more stressful.

An example of this can be seen here (http://forums.nrvnqsr.com/showthread.php/391-Things-That-Make-You-Angry?p=390967&viewfull=1#post390967), and despite acts like that we have given him multiple chances.

Having overly heated arguments with other members. I will admit that there are members of this forum who openly “troll” Mike. We handle these trolls as they come and have handed out warnings and temporary bans because of this. A friendly bit of rivalry is fine and expected, but to get outright hostile is not.

However Mike has instigated as many arguments as he has had started against him. His hair trigger temper gets the better of him. I understand getting pissed off, but there’s an old Native American saying, “Giving someone your anger gives them their power over you.” There should be a point where one walks away, or figure out how to get your point across without being an antagonistic wanker.

Broken promises of change. When we started the new forum, Mike apologized about his abhorrent behavior in the past to Altima and said he was going to change. He promised to be less hostile and sharp with his tongue. If anything he’s gotten worse over the time the new forum has been up.

We’ve gone to great lengths, more so than most members, to explain to him why his behavior is troublesome. He complains about the rules and doesn’t abide by them. Our rules are simple and made for the enjoyment of the community so that it’s not a hostile environment here like other forums. He states in another circumstances he’d act differently, but he hasn’t. We’ve given him multiple chances, more so than we would other members.

In fact we constantly get bombarded with questions of, “Why haven’t we banned them yet?”

He calls us unfair and fascists, but how is trying to force one’s feelings upon someone else any better?

Because we’re trying to be fair to him, and that some of us are even friends with him. However there is a point where friendship goes so far. That point is now. His latest blog post is sort of the “final nail in the coffin”. I am writing this with a heavy heart though, because Mike is my friend.

We are giving Mike one more chance to change, after that we will fully ban him from the forum.

If Mike is banned or not is up to Mike now. We've given him plenty of warnings and chances to change. If he fails to do so, we will ban him.

Thank You,

Elf and the rest of the Moderation and Administration Team. (Note: Elf helped compile this, but it is all of our thoughts)

This goes out to the rest of the forum and not just Mike:

If you find yourself in a situation where you cannot respond in a reasonable matter then do not respond at all. Just walk away.

Mike1984
October 22nd, 2012, 08:13 PM
OK, wow, that's really harsh to suddenly dump this on me, just because of a blog post which really wasn't that offensive at all. OK, I did screw up, but it's not at all true that I "don't change" and don't take notice of it. But, I'm not perfect, and I will make mistakes. And, it seems like you're unwilling to accept that.

- - - Updated - - -

Oh, and thanks for the fucking big "please troll me" target on my back, too, that's really helpful.

- - - Updated - - -

And, also, it seems like you just can't take criticism. As soon as I make any kind of attack (and a justified one, at that) on your moderation, I get a threat like this. OK, so what I said to IRUn was a little unfair, and I apologise for that, but I think you are taking this way too far.

I3uster
October 22nd, 2012, 08:15 PM
Arguably IRUNs choice to merge the threads was wrong though. Not for me but apparently there are people who read these things from the start :V

Mike1984
October 22nd, 2012, 08:18 PM
And, as for attacking you, I do that because your communication skills are quite frankly terrible. Such as the last ban I got, for example, which you gave me without any discussion or any chance to apologise.

I will admit that I do make mistake and get angry, but it does not happen that often, and I do post a hell of a lot. I don't think that my behaviour comes even close to justifying a permaban, and I am extremely dissapointed in you for threatening me with such and putting all this pressure on me. If I could just not explode at people, I would, it's really not that simple. I make mistakes, everyone makes mistakes, including you. Hell, Elf, you admitted that the last time you banned me it was because you were in a grouchy mood. But, apparently, only admins are allowed to make mistakes, us normal users just get banned.

- - - Updated - - -


Arguably IRUNs choice to merge the threads was wrong though. Not for me but apparently there are people who read these things from the start :V

It was undoubtedly wrong, although I think what they're objecting to is the statement that it was an "abuse of power", which was admittedly a little strong. Even so, I do not think that my blog post was really all that bad, and I think that threatening me with a ban for it just proves they cannot handle criticism.

- - - Updated - - -

Also, note that the "example" of me misbehaving that Altima decided to show was one from over a year ago. Hardly a recent example....

lantzblades
October 22nd, 2012, 08:22 PM
this notice is skitso, i had to reread it twice. altima didn't write this, if you did altima then why is there a third person element in the writing? it's confusing. and that blog post being the nail in the coffin seems odd.

Satehi
October 22nd, 2012, 08:24 PM
It... seems rather obviously written by Elf?

It even has a nice note at the bottom, saying it was written by Elf, although it is representative of the mod team.

Neir
October 22nd, 2012, 08:28 PM
but there’s an old Native American saying,

ELF IS THAT YOU

Mike1984
October 22nd, 2012, 08:28 PM
Yeah, I assume Altima posted it because Elf is not online, although I dunno why it took them this long to do so. Also, Elf made no effort to actually talk to me before posting this, even though she was on MSN last night and talked to me about other stuff.

RR121
October 22nd, 2012, 08:29 PM
Hrm....

I disapprove of this post, for a few reasons. As everyone is aware by now, no doubt, I disapprove of many of Mike's behaviors, and so forth, but I find this post pointless. First of all, its a laundry list of his flaws. Thanks, I guess? I mean, we knew that. Why are we airing them here, publically? Now, I freely admit that the admins have no doubt attempted to bring these up in private, with limited to no results. I get that. However, posting these publically seems to encourage trolling, and is extremely unlikely to affect Mike in any way, or improve his attitude.

In my opinion, corrective action should be clearly and explicitly defined, with clear negative consequences based on behavior. For one, I do not approve of the strange dichotomy between "allowed to do whatever" and "banned forever". Tempbans, removal of rights to post temporarily while retaining blog rights, and restrictions upon what forums may be posted upon are legitimate ways to provide punitive action before we devolve into a permaban. So far, I believe we've only seen tempbans, and even then, the actual "cooldown period" is vague and undefined. I understand that's to prevent people trying to game the system, but human corrective action can be taken in those cases if we see people behaving only while their cooldown is in effect.

On the whole, I find this post slightly...vindictive, which I find unappealing. I understand that the admins have a difficult job, and have been attempting to deal with this issue for awhile, but it strikes me that corrective action should be taken cleanly and without public humiliation, as this post seems to imply.

Mike1984
October 22nd, 2012, 08:39 PM
And, when is the last time I "got antagonistic" about Sakura not being in a story? I don't go around ranting and raving at people, I just post my opinion. The problem is that it sounds antagonistic to you, and it's not like you bother to listen to my opinion.

- - - Updated - - -


Hrm....

I disapprove of this post, for a few reasons. As everyone is aware by now, no doubt, I disapprove of many of Mike's behaviors, and so forth, but I find this post pointless. First of all, its a laundry list of his flaws. Thanks, I guess? I mean, we knew that. Why are we airing them here, publically? Now, I freely admit that the admins have no doubt attempted to bring these up in private, with limited to no results. I get that. However, posting these publically seems to encourage trolling, and is extremely unlikely to affect Mike in any way, or improve his attitude.

See, the thing is, they actually haven't discussed this with me.


In my opinion, corrective action should be clearly and explicitly defined, with clear negative consequences based on behavior. For one, I do not approve of the strange dichotomy between "allowed to do whatever" and "banned forever". Tempbans, removal of rights to post temporarily while retaining blog rights, and restrictions upon what forums may be posted upon are legitimate ways to provide punitive action before we devolve into a permaban.

Well, what gets me here is the sudden "right, this is a last chance" thing. Hell, I've not even been given so much as a temp ban for the blog post, and yet they are taking it as a reason to threaten me with a permaban.

OK, so I do have issues, I accept that, but I am not anything like as bad as they seem to think. I explode occasionally, yes, but it's not really all that often, and when I do it is often as much an issue with the mods as with me. In particular, their communication is absolutely terrible, particularly the last time I got temp-banned.

Honestly, that was the main issue behind my blog post. I simply do not trust the mods and admins to communicate with me effectively or to address the (entirely legitimate) issue I raised, hence me making a blog post. I was a little harsh on IRUn, but there's no way in hell that deserves what they've done here.

Hell, they talk about explosions, but that blog post was not an "explosion". It was written entirely rationally and sensibly, and pointed out genuine issues. Sure, it was quite strongly-worded, but that's just how I speak.

The issue I have with the mods is a lack of trust, and honestly my trust in them has absolutely plummeted now, given the lack of care about me they seem to be showing here, and the unfair way they've suddenly jumped on me. Not to mention the false statements that I have not got better, when I actually have in some ways.


So far, I believe we've only seen tempbans, and even then, the actual "cooldown period" is vague and undefined. I understand that's to prevent people trying to game the system, but human corrective action can be taken in those cases if we see people behaving only while their cooldown is in effect.

Yeah, this is something I do not like at all. It just makes people worried and unsure of their situation.


On the whole, I find this post slightly...vindictive, which I find unappealing. I understand that the admins have a difficult job, and have been attempting to deal with this issue for awhile, but it strikes me that corrective action should be taken cleanly and without public humiliation, as this post seems to imply.

Yeah, honestly, it does come across like that, although I'm sure that wasn't their intention.

Honestly, there are areas in which I've got better and areas in which I've got worse. I explode at the other forumites a lot less now than I used to and, for that matter, I explode at the mods a lot less severely. The difference is that, a year ago, I generally trusted the admins, so I didn't tend to argue with them that much. Now, I don't, so I argue a lot more. But, the actual arguments are not particularly abusive, and certainly are nothing I would get banned for were they not mods. I am just expressing my genuine opinion calmly and rationally.

TypeWannabe
October 22nd, 2012, 08:45 PM
Honestly, I do agree that this is too much. Why couldn't they have just PMed him this, instead of making it a public affair? For that matter, what Sakura talking? I'll be honest here, I don't go to the Fanfiction section as I used to, because...because. But the places I do go now, (GD, Anime and Manga, the other GD, 7th, some Roleplaying) the guy hardly talks about her now, and everybody else just doesn't bash her. I feel that bringing that up was unnecessary.

Aiden
October 22nd, 2012, 08:47 PM
For that matter, what Sakura talking? I'll be honest here, I don't go to the Fanfiction section as I used to, because...because. But the places I do go now, (GD, Anime and Manga, the other GD, 7th, some Roleplaying) the guy hardly talks about her now, and everybody else just doesn't bash her. I feel that bringing that up was unnecessary.

It's basically Fanfiction section, that part, I think.

- - - Updated - - -

At least from what I've observed.

Seika
October 22nd, 2012, 08:47 PM
He does still bring her up in FF, Type. And in the same way he always did.

I'm another one who'd say that this should be private, but even if I don't like how it was put out, I at least get the reasoning in the post.

RacingeR
October 22nd, 2012, 08:49 PM
Yet we have not seen that promise take effect yet even after we’ve given him admittedly special consideration that we may not have given other members.

*Blinks*

You know, I usually kind of consider myself kind of a chill person. I mean, I have my rage moments, but these are rare, and pretty far away from one each other.

But I still feel like saying, with a pretty angry tone, that now you are freely admitting that?

I mean, it has been a long time since then, but you know that the insistence on not admitting that whole thing with giving him special treatment is what made me wall off out of most of the forum and enclose myself in the RP section?

I think it is one of the few moments that I can say that the whole BL drama has come near making me genuinely upset.

RR121
October 22nd, 2012, 08:52 PM
Honestly, there are areas in which I've got better and areas in which I've got worse. I explode at the other forumites a lot less now than I used to and, for that matter, I explode at the mods a lot less severely. The difference is that, a year ago, I generally trusted the admins, so I didn't tend to argue with them that much. Now, I don't, so I argue a lot more. But, the actual arguments are not particularly abusive, and certainly are nothing I would get banned for were they not mods. I am just expressing my genuine opinion calmly and rationally.

In all seriousness, and mind you, this is a rare thing for me to say, since I'm usually a full-time unrepentant dick...

You've actually improved. You don't come off as obnoxious as often as you used to when I first joined, and frankly, I think that with a bit of time, you could become a highly productive member of the community. There's no doubt you have more spare time and dedication to this forum than most, and I can't remember the last time you went batshit insane about a Sakura post....it might've been Lancer gets Serious, but since then, I haven't seen too much rage.

Anyways, I'm rambling. My point being that with a bit of improvement, I think I would have no objections with Mike staying on the forum.



*Blinks*

You know, I usually kind of consider myself kind of a chill person. I mean, I have my rage moments, but these are rare, and pretty far away from one each other.

But I still feel like saying, with a pretty angry tone, that now you are freely admitting that?

I mean, it has been a long time since then, but you know that the insistence on not admitting that whole thing with giving him special treatment is what made me wall off out of most of the forum and enclose myself in the RP section?

I think it is one of the few moments that I can say that the whole BL drama has come near making me genuinely upset.


And this. After so long of hearing "no special treatment", now you say you gave him special treatment? You don't get it both ways.

Mike1984
October 22nd, 2012, 08:57 PM
He does still bring her up in FF, Type. And in the same way he always did.

I'm another one who'd say that this should be private, but even if I don't like how it was put out, I at least get the reasoning in the post.

Yes, I bring her up in a "I would like to see her in this fic" kind-of way. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that.

- - - Updated - - -


In all seriousness, and mind you, this is a rare thing for me to say, since I'm usually a full-time unrepentant dick...

You've actually improved. You don't come off as obnoxious as often as you used to when I first joined, and frankly, I think that with a bit of time, you could become a highly productive member of the community. There's no doubt you have more spare time and dedication to this forum than most, and I can't remember the last time you went batshit insane about a Sakura post....it might've been Lancer gets Serious, but since then, I haven't seen too much rage.

Anyways, I'm rambling. My point being that with a bit of improvement, I think I would have no objections with Mike staying on the forum.

Exactly. OK, I'm not perfect, but I am improving, as much as the mods seem incapable of recognising that.

I think the issue is that my relationship with the mods and admins has steadily broken down over time, due to a combination of my naturally anti-authoritarian attitude, their rather suddenly and sporadically hardening stance and their quite franky utterly abysmal attempts at communication (DP, who I quite frankly can't stand, becoming an admin and the appointment of the new mods has not helped one bit either). As a result, whilst I've exploded at the rest of the forum a lot less, I've argued with the mods a lot more than I used to (including on the forum), and that is far more noticable to them. Even then, my actual statements to them have become generally a lot harsher, but I'm a lot less respectful of them than I used to because, to be quite honest, I have less respect for them than I used to have.

Raven2785
October 22nd, 2012, 09:00 PM
Yes, I bring her up in a "I would like to see her in this fic" kind-of way. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that.

The problem is your wording Mike, while you may want to say "I Would like to see what you got planned for Sakura here" a lot of the times I've seen you do it you come across more like "why isn't Sakura in this fic? why aren't you writing about her more?" which sounds a lot more agressive, and if someone tells you that there's no plan for Sakura to make an appearance you start accusing them of hating the character.

Mike1984
October 22nd, 2012, 09:02 PM
The problem is your wording Mike, while you may want to say "I Would like to see what you got planned for Sakura here" a lot of the times I've seen you do it you come across more like "why isn't Sakura in this fic? why aren't you writing about her more?" which sounds a lot more agressive, and if someone tells you that there's no plan for Sakura to make an appearance you start accusing them of hating the character.

Yeah, I understand that. A lot of the issue is that that's just how I tend to speak. Even if I'm actually not acting hostile, it does often come across that way.

Aiden
October 22nd, 2012, 09:05 PM
Yeah, I understand that. A lot of the issue is that that's just how I tend to speak. Even if I'm actually not acting hostile, it does often come across that way.

I think that is considered part of the problem.

Mike1984
October 22nd, 2012, 09:06 PM
I think that is considered part of the problem.

Perhaps, but I do not think that justifies a permaban. People have different ways of speaking, we're not all uber diplomats like Altima seems to think he is.

Altima of the Gates
October 22nd, 2012, 09:06 PM
*Blinks*

You know, I usually kind of consider myself kind of a chill person. I mean, I have my rage moments, but these are rare, and pretty far away from one each other.

But I still feel like saying, with a pretty angry tone, that now you are freely admitting that?

I mean, it has been a long time since then, but you know that the insistence on not admitting that whole thing with giving him special treatment is what made me wall off out of most of the forum and enclose myself in the RP section?

I think it is one of the few moments that I can say that the whole BL drama has come near making me genuinely upset.

Race, don't even start. You of all people are not in any sort of position to say that they are a calm person. You have trolled, baited, flamed and flooded in with several people to antagonize Mike numerous times in the past. To say that *you* should be indignant is laughable to such an extreme I can hardly believe you bothered to say so. Not only have we been extra considerate of him, but also very much tolerant of the trolling from you and several others, in order to have a more liberal community as we always have. We have admitted this because it is the truth, but to come as if you are indignant? Ha!

Seika
October 22nd, 2012, 09:07 PM
Yes, I bring her up in a "I would like to see her in this fic" kind-of way. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that.
All the time, Mike, all the time. And you just won't move on when people say that it's not their plan. You just keep at it. Whether you acknowledge it or not, whether you intend it that way or not, it is aggressive. No question.

Mike1984
October 22nd, 2012, 09:09 PM
All the time, Mike, all the time. And you just won't move on when people say that it's not their plan. You just keep at it. Whether you acknowledge it or not, whether you intend it that way or not, it is aggressive. No question.

When? Point me at an example where I've "kept at it", at least recently.

Kyte
October 22nd, 2012, 09:14 PM
...Yet we have not seen that promise take effect yet even after we’ve given him admittedly special consideration that we may not have given other members. We’ve bent over backwards trying to help him, but it’s been a thankless task and made already stressful lives even more stressful.

So you guys FINALLY admit you've been biased jackasses? Way to go. :V

Lianru
October 22nd, 2012, 09:20 PM
Guys pls be polite :(

(no, I am not implying anything at all, this is merely preemptive, please do not jump on me and shoot me for saying something)

RacingeR
October 22nd, 2012, 09:24 PM
To be honest, I think it would be better to lock the thread right now. Nothing that is going to be said is going to contribute much at all, except further inflaming the oncoming shitstorm, and this shouldn't have been public in the first place. Any doubts and things in general Mike feels the need to say to the moderators and admins should be by PM. This thread is not going to end well.

@Altima: I could point many flaws in your arguments, I could link you a lot of posts, I am pretty sure that number the hundreds, that prove you wrong. I could also point out that nothing in your post justifies giving Mike special treatment at all and has not much to do with anything I said in my post. However, I know how you play your game, so I am just going to have this post of yours stand by itself, alone, and prove my point better than any post of mine ever could. Sorry, but for once I am not taking that bait, and I am going to be the bigger man.

Seika
October 22nd, 2012, 09:25 PM
When? Point me at an example where I've "kept at it", at least recently.


Trying to find a way to kill Zouken without harming Sakura?
Fic idea proposed -> immediately go to Sakura.


Doesn't it let Rin turn into AU versions of herself?

Hell, she could just give the thing to Sakura and have her turn into an alternate Sakura who found a way to control and change the worms.

Or, alternately, give it to Zouken and have him turn into an alternate version of himself who is dead :p
Fic idea proposed -> immediately go to Sakura. And if you tell me you didn't keep at that argument, you'd be a liar, bluntly, and the next couple of dozen posts would attest quite handily to that.

Those are both from the last five days. I found them within the first 100 search results for your posts in the Fanfics forum.

Brynhilde
October 22nd, 2012, 09:28 PM
Now, this really doesn't have to be as complicated (and emotional) as people are making it to be.

The question is, why are we not having a set of rules that treat all members equally?

Neir
October 22nd, 2012, 09:33 PM
Mike, you got PREEMPTIVELY angry at theoretical people who would join milbunk's rp and take a character from you whom you haven't even written a profile for.

Mike1984
October 22nd, 2012, 09:41 PM
To be honest, I think it would be better to lock the thread right now. Nothing that is going to be said is going to contribute much at all, except further inflaming the oncoming shitstorm, and this shouldn't have been public in the first place. Any doubts and things in general Mike feels the need to say to the moderators and admins should be by PM. This thread is not going to end well.

Right, yeah, because obviously the mods can't possibly listen to everyone telling them that they've fucked up again. I mean, we can't have actual dissent....


Fic idea proposed -> immediately go to Sakura.

And? What the hell is wrong with me suggesting something like that when it fits?


Fic idea proposed -> immediately go to Sakura. And if you tell me you didn't keep at that argument, you'd be a liar, bluntly, and the next couple of dozen posts would attest quite handily to that.

Those are both from the last five days. I found them within the first 100 search results for your posts in the Fanfics forum.

That was a fic idea, that is totally different. Fic ideas exist for discussion, saying "hey, this is how you could add Sakura" is entirely legitimate.

I won't deny that I'm Sakura-centric, but that does not in any way fit what they are saying.


Mike, you got PREEMPTIVELY angry at theoretical people who would join milbunk's rp and take a character from you whom you haven't even written a profile for.

I have written the profile, at least in part. I think it's unfair for someone to jump in at such late notice and take someone else's spot.

I could easily have tried to go for the role of Tokiomi, but I avoided it because I didn't think it'd be fair on KT.

Mike1984
October 22nd, 2012, 09:55 PM
You know, for all you complain about my blog about IRUn, at least I gave him the chance to respond before I made that post, even if I was a little hasty. You just posted this whole thing publically without talking to me at all.

Seika
October 22nd, 2012, 09:57 PM
And? What the hell is wrong with me suggesting something like that when it fits?

That was a fic idea, that is totally different. Fic ideas exist for discussion, saying "hey, this is how you could add Sakura" is entirely legitimate.

I won't deny that I'm Sakura-centric, but that does not in any way fit what they are saying.
But when you do it all the time (as I said, those are very recent examples), people notice. And they don't feel like mentioning those ideas or posting written versions, because they know that you will be there to bring her up. It's what the mods said - your insistence makes people uncomfortable. Keyne and Mil (aka the next two biggest character-obsessives on these forums by my reckoning) manage not to do it, and I wish you could hold back like that. And whilst you can argue that it 'fits' in the ideas, it was also obviously not the thrust of them: Rin was the focus in each case and I imagine both members would rather you had discussed her instead of leaping to what she could do for Sakura.

Mike1984
October 22nd, 2012, 09:59 PM
But when you do it all the time (as I said, those are very recent examples), people notice. And they don't feel like mentioning those ideas or posting written versions, because they know that you will be there to bring her up. It's what the mods said - your insistence makes people uncomfortable. Keyne and Mil (aka the next two biggest character-obsessives on these forums by my reckoning) manage not to do it, and I wish you could hold back like that.

Yes, I am Sakura-centric, I won't deny that, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. If someone suggests an idea, there is no reason not to suggest a way Sakura could be involved, or ask about her.


And whilst you can argue that it 'fits' in the ideas, it was also obviously not the thrust of them: Rin was the focus in each case and I imagine both members would rather you had discussed her instead of leaping to what she could do for Sakura.

He asked for a backstory for her, I suggested one. What is the problem with that?

Randy Hamblast
October 22nd, 2012, 10:01 PM
It's nice to see something being done about Mike. Any time I post, he seems to follow me around trying to find a way to be offended by whatever he can. It's getting tiring having to defend myself from him for posting something like a smiley face.

Mike1984
October 22nd, 2012, 10:02 PM
Hang on, so I'm being threatened with a ban, and yet a guy who is the most fucking obvious troll since CV is still here, despite getting a week ban and then immediately jumping back into trolling so obvious that I was pointing it out...?

Randy Hamblast
October 22nd, 2012, 10:06 PM
Hang on, so I'm being threatened with a ban, and yet a guy who is the most fucking obvious troll since CV is still here, despite getting a week ban and then immediately jumping back into trolling so obvious that I was pointing it out...? This right here ladies and gentlemen

Seika
October 22nd, 2012, 10:07 PM
Yes, I am Sakura-centric, I won't deny that, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. If someone suggests an idea, there is no reason not to suggest a way Sakura could be involved, or ask about her.
Like I said, it's wrong because the sheer constancy with which you do it means that people (not incorrectly) have started to decide that it's inevitable that you will go down that route whenever they post a story or idea. (Moreover, you're not just going to mention it, you're not going to drop it). And that puts them off. We want new writers with new ideas, we don't want them deciding to keep away because you badger people like that.


He asked for a backstory for her, I suggested one. What is the problem with that?
It's illustrative of your obsession, and that obsession is one of the issues at stake here, because it leads into often-aggressive confrontations between you and forum writers, or into people avoiding the forum because of a potential confrontation.

Mike1984
October 22nd, 2012, 10:12 PM
Like I said, it's wrong because the sheer constancy with which you do it means that people (not incorrectly) have started to decide that it's inevitable that you will go down that route whenever they post a story or idea. (Moreover, you're not just going to mention it, you're not going to drop it). And that puts them off. We want new writers with new ideas, we don't want them deciding to keep away because you badger people like that.

Sorry, but that is their fault, not mine. As long as I am not harrassing new authors about their lack of Sakura, then it is not my fault if they take my entirely legitimate actions in other discussions to be an indication of me jumping on them.


It's illustrative of your obsession, and that obsession is one of the issues at stake here, because it leads into often-aggressive confrontations between you and forum writers, or into people avoiding the forum because of a potential confrontation.

Sorry, but I am Sakura-centric, and that is not going to change. If my Sakura-centricity is the issue (and I don't think it is), then they might as well ban me right now. Further, I don't get involved in all that many fanfic idea discussions, it's just that the ones I do get involved in tend to be about Sakura.

Lianru
October 22nd, 2012, 10:13 PM
As long as I am not harrassing new authors about their lack of Sakura
I think the point is that you are?

Randy Hamblast
October 22nd, 2012, 10:17 PM
You jump on everyone at any chance you get. In the Experts thread you instantly assumed that I must be lying rather than the possibility that I might be good at things. If you chase away all the experts then the forum will be full of people with questions but nobody to answer them.

Elf
October 22nd, 2012, 10:23 PM
I was the one who wrote the Announcement. It wasn't something I wanted to do, but through decision it is what the Team decided needed to be done. I don't like the idea of banning a friend, but there comes a point where sometimes you have to cut out the cancer so to speak. (Not that I'm saying Mike is a cancer, it's just the best metaphor I can think of right now.)

Anyway, the reason why this was made public was a very clear and simple one.

If we would have privately given Mike the message it would have become public anyway. There have been instances in the past where we have warned Mike, every time, he has gotten angry about it and brought it to public light. When Mike made things public, it always put us in the worse possible light and we couldn't get a word in edgewise.

So, we went preemptive before Mike got on his proverbial soap box.

I was the one who had to write this to get the point across. I did so with a very heavy heart, but boils and lancing and cancer and cutting.

Mike1984
October 22nd, 2012, 10:23 PM
Honestly, I really don't see how this can end well.

If it was just "don't explode at people", then I could at least try to do that, but the way they're picking up on a fairly innocuous blog post as the "final straw" makes it pretty clear that I also cannot express my opinion any more. If I call a mod a fascist, that gets me a ban (even if I think it's true), and if I point out what seemed to me at the time to be mod abuse of power, I get a ban.

I am someone who says what I see without really sugar-coating it, that is just how I am. Elf has previously stated that she also feels that way, but yet she seems to feel justified in threatening me with a ban for doing that, even when I'm really not being particularly harsh. I cannot simply gain tact overnight, that is just not how I am, and the mods do not seem to appreciate that at all. It's one thing to say "don't get angry", but they can't even accept perfectly calm criticism, and given how little trust I now have for them, I can't see that being something that is stable in the long term.

I don't intend to leave, if they want to get rid of me they are going to have to take responsibility for it, but given their attitude I don't see this working out. It's one thing to say "don't explode" (although it's not that simple), but they're going further than that. Altima claims I can trust him, but he has provided no evidence to demonstrate this, and nor has Elf for that matter. The last time I got banned showed how little that was true, and, despite all their promises to communicate better and try to deal with issues more effectively, the next time anything even remotely serious came up, I got this. Hardly a good way to engineer trust or respect.

And, then, they start complaining about the lack of respect I have for them. Sorry, but in my view, respect is something you earn, and the actions of the mods over the last month or so have certainly not done that. Obviously, I will have to at least try to fake that respect, since you basically threatened me into it, but I assure you that, at this point, that is all it is, fake. You're going to have to do a hell of a lot if you want me to get back the kind of real respect I used to have for (most of) you.

Altima of the Gates
October 22nd, 2012, 10:26 PM
To those asking why this was made public. By past precedence, if we had sent this to Mike through PM, it would become a new blog post by morning I'm willing to bet. So we cut that off at the pass and just made it public this time, to avoid such things happening, and to hopefully have a civil discussion about things.

^^ Sniped by a long shot by Elf.

Mike1984
October 22nd, 2012, 10:27 PM
I was the one who wrote the Announcement. It wasn't something I wanted to do, but through decision it is what the Team decided needed to be done. I don't like the idea of banning a friend, but there comes a point where sometimes you have to cut out the cancer so to speak. (Not that I'm saying Mike is a cancer, it's just the best metaphor I can think of right now.)

How the fucking hell am I so bad that I need to be got rid of like this? And, if you "didn't want to do it", who did?


Anyway, the reason why this was made public was a very clear and simple one.

If we would have privately given Mike the message it would have become public anyway. There have been instances in the past where we have warned Mike, every time, he has gotten angry about it and brought it to public light. When Mike made things public, it always put us in the worse possible light and we couldn't get a word in edgewise.

Maybe, maybe not, but you could at least have had the decency to talk to me first, rather than dumping this on me.


So, we went preemptive before Mike got on his proverbial soap box.

I was the one who had to write this to get the point across. I did so with a very heavy heart, but boils and lancing and cancer and cutting.

I do not honestly see how I am so bad that I deserve this sort of treatment. My blog post was a little harsh, but basically correct. I admit that I should have waited longer for IRUn to respond to me, but people do make mistakes, and you cannot seem to accept that.

You do not seem to care about me at all, how you're making me feel or what you're doing to me here. I do not cause sufficient disruption for this to be anything like a proportionate response, and you did not even have the guts to talk to me about it yesterday, despite talking to me on MSN for over an hour.

Elf
October 22nd, 2012, 10:27 PM
I don't sugar coat things, but I don't come off sounding like a vicious bitch either. I'm blunt, but I don't come off sounding hostile. Sometimes it's just word choices, and sometimes its knowing when to cut your losses and leave.

Mike1984
October 22nd, 2012, 10:30 PM
To those asking why this was made public. By past precedence, if we had sent this to Mike through PM, it would become a new blog post by morning I'm willing to bet. So we cut that off at the pass and just made it public this time, to avoid such things happening, and to hopefully have a civil discussion about things.

^^ Sniped by a long shot by Elf.

Right, so you expected me to be perfectly OK with being threatened with a perma-ban, and to just "discuss it civilly" when the Sword of Damocles was hanging over me?

Yeah, I'll give you a hint, if you want a "civil discussion" with someone who you know is rather anti-authoritarian and who has somewhat of a temper, then don't attach a massive threat to the end of it. Threatening people doesn't tend to make for a particularly fruitful or civil discussion....

- - - Updated - - -


I don't sugar coat things, but I don't come off sounding like a vicious bitch either. I'm blunt, but I don't come off sounding hostile. Sometimes it's just word choices, and sometimes its knowing when to cut your losses and leave.

Well, you've not exactly come off sounding nice here....

I am not perfect, but I do not think that my blog post comes even close to warrenting what you've done here. This is totally unfair and disproportionate.

Lycodrake
October 22nd, 2012, 10:32 PM
...the Sword of Damocles...
...I'd like to note that the Sword of Damocles is a metaphor for the weight and danger of being a ruler or in a position of power.
And that it was hung by a horse-hair, which would respond to humidity. :V

Mike1984
October 22nd, 2012, 10:37 PM
...I'd like to note that the Sword of Damocles is a metaphor for the weight and danger of being a ruler or in a position of power.
And that it was hung by a horse-hair, which would respond to humidity. :V

Well, yes, that was the original meaning, but it's come to mean a serious and imminent threat more generally.

Seika
October 22nd, 2012, 10:41 PM
The meaning has changed from encompassing what the set-up was meant to prove into a straight conjuring of the set-up's imagery without the moral weight.

I translated that story somewhere. Wonder if I've still got it around ...

Kyte
October 22nd, 2012, 10:41 PM
Right, so you expected me to be perfectly OK with being threatened with a perma-ban, and to just "discuss it civilly" when the Sword of Damocles was hanging over me?

Yeah, I'll give you a hint, if you want a "civil discussion" with someone who you know is rather anti-authoritarian and who has somewhat of a temper, then don't attach a massive threat to the end of it. Threatening people doesn't tend to make for a particularly fruitful or civil discussion....

I thought this was the part where "all previous talks have failed" comes in. If you have already proven yourself unwilling to negotiate with no threat to keep you in line, why bother?

Lycodrake
October 22nd, 2012, 10:41 PM
The meaning has changed encompassing what the set-up was meant to prove into a straight conjuring of the set-up without the moral weight.
This saddens me.

Elf
October 22nd, 2012, 10:42 PM
How the fucking hell am I so bad that I need to be got rid of like this? And, if you "didn't want to do it", who did?

That I can't tell you. The whole names being withheld to protect them sort of thing.


You do not seem to care about me at all, how you're making me feel or what you're doing to me here. I do not cause sufficient disruption for this to be anything like a proportionate response, and you did not even have the guts to talk to me about it yesterday, despite talking to me on MSN for over an hour.

You know why I didn't talk to you about it? Because I didn't want to, because I had already become so upset because I was the only one who could write this. Darples couldn't, Roadbuster couldn't, and Altima couldn't. It was me, and I loathed doing it. I was the one who had to write this because I'm the one who could get the point across to you.

Because I wanted to have a nice friendly chat before the shit hit the fan, that's why.

Mike1984
October 22nd, 2012, 10:48 PM
That I can't tell you. The whole names being withheld to protect them sort of thing.

Right, so, in other words "it ain't my fault, but I'm not going to actually tell you who is at fault".

If you lot are going to stab me in the back, you should at least have the fucking decency to admit that you are doing it. Don't hide behind anonymity whilst you're pretending to be my friends, that is just plain two-faced. I want to know what you all think on the matter, honestly and truthfully, and I don't want any bullshit.

I'm sick of being lied to, tricked, given half-truths and treated generally like I'm unimportant. I want to know what the fucking hell is going on. I think I am fully entitled to know who is screwing me over and why/


You know why I didn't talk to you about it? Because I didn't want to, because I had already become so upset because I was the only one who could write this. Darples couldn't, Roadbuster couldn't, and Altima couldn't. It was me, and I loathed doing it. I was the one who had to write this because I'm the one who could get the point across to you.

Well, OK, fair enough, that is understandable. Still, knowing what the hell was going on would be nice.


Because I wanted to have a nice friendly chat before the shit hit the fan, that's why.

Well, still, it'd have been nice to actually be able to put across my viewpoint.

RoadBuster
October 22nd, 2012, 10:49 PM
How the fucking hell am I so bad that I need to be got rid of like this? And, if you "didn't want to do it", who did?

Nobody WANTED to, but damn, Altima, Elf and I have been dealing with this for years now. Your rap sheet is many times longer than Nahash's ever was. I've got a ton of friends that won't even log in here anymore citing you as the biggest reason. So... what exactly are we supposed to do here? It seems enabling if we keep 'trying to work on it' with little results. I, and the others understand that it's not your actual intention to be as destructive as you are, which is why we've done everything we can... but there comes a time when we can no longer justify it.

Mike1984
October 22nd, 2012, 10:53 PM
So, in other words "bugger you, Mike, I'm going to throw you to the wolves"....

Kyte
October 22nd, 2012, 11:10 PM
More like "bugger you, Mike, I'm not gonna stop you when you keep throwing yourself to the wolves" :V

VelspertheCat
October 22nd, 2012, 11:15 PM
I'm sick of being lied to, tricked, given half-truths and treated generally like I'm unimportant.

You're a fucking important character, Mike.

Anyway, it's shitty, but I think they pretty blatantly said what they feel about you, man. They're backpedaling at the moment, but the first impression says more than anything. They just don't want to cover you anymore.

To be fair, they aired their grievances out in a stupid fashion, but whatever.

Mike1984
October 22nd, 2012, 11:24 PM
Anyway, it's shitty, but I think they pretty blatantly said what they feel about you, man. They're backpedaling at the moment, but the first impression says more than anything. They just don't want to cover you anymore.

As a group, yes, not as individuals.

Neir
October 22nd, 2012, 11:26 PM
Right, so, in other words "it ain't my fault, but I'm not going to actually tell you who is at fault".

If you lot are going to stab me in the back, you should at least have the fucking decency to admit that you are doing it. Don't hide behind anonymity whilst you're pretending to be my friends, that is just plain two-faced. I want to know what you all think on the matter, honestly and truthfully, and I don't want any bullshit.

I'm sick of being lied to, tricked, given half-truths and treated generally like I'm unimportant. I want to know what the fucking hell is going on. I think I am fully entitled to know who is screwing me over and why/

Well, still, it'd have been nice to actually be able to put across my viewpoint.

I don't think anyone is pretending to be your friend, here.

Nor are you particularly entitled to who has been complaining.

And your viewpoint has been made pretty clear.

Mike1984
October 22nd, 2012, 11:27 PM
I don't think anyone is pretending to be your friend, here.

Elf and Altima certainly are....


Nor are you particularly entitled to who has been complaining.

No, but I am entitled to know what the people judging me actually think.

Neir
October 22nd, 2012, 11:29 PM
Elf and Altima certainly are....

No, but I am entitled to know what the people judging me actually think.

People can be your friend and still think you're a problem, you know.

And don't you think the first post kind of... summarizes what these people think of you?

Mike1984
October 22nd, 2012, 11:30 PM
People can be your friend and still think you're a problem, you know.

Yeah, if they were my friend they wouldn't treat me like shit, and threaten to kick me off the very forum that I actually know them through....


And don't you think the first post kind of... summarizes what these people think of you?

As a group, yes, not necessarily as individuals. They may not have all agreed I deserved this.

Neir
October 22nd, 2012, 11:32 PM
Does it matter if some of them didn't? Obviously enough people think it's a problem that it's come to this.

lantzblades
October 22nd, 2012, 11:32 PM
People can be your friend and still think you're a problem, you know.

And don't you think the first post kind of... summarizes what these people think of you?

perhaps if you're bleak, or in your case hateful neir, perhaps then a single statement can summarize your feelings regarding someone but most of us aren't robots, opinions are complex.

Mike1984
October 22nd, 2012, 11:35 PM
Does it matter if some of them didn't? Obviously enough people think it's a problem that it's come to this.

Yes, because I want to know whether my supposed "friends" are stabbing me in the back whilst pretending not to be....

Kyte
October 22nd, 2012, 11:35 PM
Yeah, if they were my friend they wouldn't treat me like shit, and threaten to kick me off the very forum that I actually know them through....
Whether they're your friends or not should bear absolutely no relevance in their admin decisions and to imply otherwise is basically wanting them to abuse their admin power to keep you inside when you should've been kicked out already.

Which is, as a matter of fact, the case. Except they can't cover for you anymore.

For you who keep claiming denouncing power abuse to support such a position would be nothing less of hypocritical. I'm sure you don't want to appear hypocritical.

Neir
October 22nd, 2012, 11:37 PM
perhaps if you're bleak, or in your case hateful neir, perhaps then a single statement can summarize your feelings regarding someone but most of us aren't robots, opinions are complex.

Try to be slightly less of an idiot, lantz.

- - - Updated - - -


Yes, because I want to know whether my supposed "friends" are stabbing me in the back whilst pretending not to be....

Then ask the people you consider to be your friends. Individually, not as a whole, and not by demanding answers from someone else.

Mike1984
October 22nd, 2012, 11:37 PM
Honestly, if they want to kick me out from the forum for being myself, then they either don't like me or just don't care about me.

RoadBuster
October 22nd, 2012, 11:38 PM
So, in other words "bugger you, Mike, I'm going to throw you to the wolves"....

So what exactly are we supposed to do? Allow you to keep harassing and chasing people off...? We've tried for YEARS to get it to the point you could still be you without completely stepping on the rights of other members.

Kyte
October 22nd, 2012, 11:39 PM
Honestly, if they want to kick me out from the forum for being myself, then they either don't like me or just don't care about me.
Or maybe the way you are disrupts the normal course of the forum to the point they must perform their duty as admin and get rid of you.

Mike1984
October 22nd, 2012, 11:39 PM
So what exactly are we supposed to do? Allow you to keep harassing and chasing people off...? We've tried for YEARS to get it to the point you could still be you without completely stepping on the rights of other members.

Harrassing who? Show me someone who I have "harrassed" in the remotely recent past, at least over Sakura.

- - - Updated - - -


Or maybe the way you are disrupts the normal course of the forum to the point they must perform their duty as admin and get rid of you.

But I don't, though. Hell, most of the issues I have had have been because of their mistakes.

RoadBuster
October 22nd, 2012, 11:53 PM
I apologize that I don't have the actual reports anymore, but almost all the recent ones were from the RP section. I honestly do not know if they were over Sakura... and that isn't the point, anyway. It's not really locked down to a single subject.

Dark Pulse
October 22nd, 2012, 11:57 PM
OK, wow, that's really harsh to suddenly dump this on me, just because of a blog post which really wasn't that offensive at all. OK, I did screw up, but it's not at all true that I "don't change" and don't take notice of it. But, I'm not perfect, and I will make mistakes. And, it seems like you're unwilling to accept that.The problem isn't making mistakes, the problem is that ultimately your behavior - the core behavior - isn't changing. If you have a problem with the mods, you come to the admins - you don't make up an angry blogpost over it; it's our job to discipline them. We're not on here all the time, so you might have to wait a bit, but nothing extreme.


Oh, and thanks for the fucking big "please troll me" target on my back, too, that's really helpful.I thought the message made it clear, but since it wasn't, anyone who is trolling Mike because of this, in an effort to get him banned, will be punished themselves. Possibly with their own bans. Maybe even permanent ones. So if you're thinking about it: Don't. This wasn't made public so that you could try to get him into blowing up and getting banned.


And, also, it seems like you just can't take criticism. As soon as I make any kind of attack (and a justified one, at that) on your moderation, I get a threat like this. OK, so what I said to IRUn was a little unfair, and I apologise for that, but I think you are taking this way too far.Justified to you isn't justified to all. Even then, you needed to word it way less aggressively, which is one of the issues with you - you seem to not be able to question a decision without coming out as hostile and aggressive, to the point where it sounds like rather than saying "I don't like this" it sounds more like "the mods are idiots." If you want to have that personal opinion, fine - nothing's stopping you. But, just like if you happen to be religiously or racially prejudiced, that's something you keep to yourself.

In short, you should've come to us rather than posting the angry blog. And really, for what he did, while it may be annoying to a select few, having two totally separate threads for that sort of thing is redundant, and it certainly did not give you any sort of reason to rip into him like he's a horrible moderator - the very blog post was titled "abuse of power" which this is anything but. It's an attempt to streamline the forum.


And, as for attacking you, I do that because your communication skills are quite frankly terrible. Such as the last ban I got, for example, which you gave me without any discussion or any chance to apologise.Yours are no better. A decision that you don't like is met with anger and hostility from you, and frankly, we're tired of that. You didn't want to have the banner contest because there "wouldn't be enough Sakura" for example, and even when I accommodated you so that you wouldn't have to see "tons of Saber and Rin," you still weren't happy because you didn't view others as making enough banners with Sakura in it. In the end, you manned up, made some of your own, and partially thanks to that, she's got about the fifth most banners of any single character, so she's hardly going to be under-represented.

There is nothing wrong with disliking the decisions. The problem is that when you do, you turn very aggressive and hostile, talking about how horrible the place and its staff are. Frankly, we're tired of it, and the other three admins have had to put up with it for a lot longer than the rest of the staff. We've tried to tell you this needs to stop before and it has not, and while you'll at least apologize if you feel you make a mistake now, you can only say "sorry" so many times after the fact before it gets to the point where you feel like that's all you need to get you in the clear, as opposed to holding your tongue, or complaining and inquiring in private.


I will admit that I do make mistake and get angry, but it does not happen that often, and I do post a hell of a lot. I don't think that my behaviour comes even close to justifying a permaban, and I am extremely dissapointed in you for threatening me with such and putting all this pressure on me. If I could just not explode at people, I would, it's really not that simple. I make mistakes, everyone makes mistakes, including you. Hell, Elf, you admitted that the last time you banned me it was because you were in a grouchy mood. But, apparently, only admins are allowed to make mistakes, us normal users just get banned.We know that. People make mistakes. Everyone loses their cool once in awhile. The problem is with you, whenever it does happen, it becomes a big fuss out of it. I'll put up an even more recent example: When I did the colored name things (which, in hindsight, I will agree was probably not the best of ideas, but not exactly something as horrible as you made it out to be), you immediately were saying things like I only hand it out to my friends and my "clique." That was not only patently false, it was completely wrong. Saying sorry afterward is kind of minimal because it seems like anytime any admin or mod does something you don't like, you have nothing but venom and nasty things to say.

Constructive criticism requires a cool, level head. If you're angry when you're criticizing, it's just going to come off exactly how it does right now - like you're preaching, like your opinions matter more than others, and like everything should revolve around you. The thread merge inconveniences you and a few others, so it's obviously a bad decision - even if, realistically, merging the two threads is more logical, rational, and realistic, because the only other "fair" option, would be to split it off for every single character, every single pairing, every single situation, and that's just unworkable because it'd be ten thousand different threads. It's not fair (remember your arguments about fairness and equality for all characters?) to have one character have their own separate topic just because they're popular, and having them character-separate, while much more easily searchable, is not workable as I said, so the only fair choice is to merge them. There's thread search tools for a reason, if you want to pick out individual characters.


It was undoubtedly wrong, although I think what they're objecting to is the statement that it was an "abuse of power", which was admittedly a little strong. Even so, I do not think that my blog post was really all that bad, and I think that threatening me with a ban for it just proves they cannot handle criticism.It's not the one little thing, it's the pattern, Mike. Anytime we do something you don't like, words like that come out. You show no ability to even try to stop that sort of thing, you show no attempts to come to us when you have problems with the mods, and saying "sorry" or "it was a little strong" matters a whole lot less when you don't even remember the previous thing that got you angry and learn from it.

Essentially, that is what we want, but we don't see you trying to do it. Being "less angry" really isn't the problem - the problem is that you can't get your dissatisfaction across without such anger, and then think that by apologizing afterward it smooths things over, or that when you do post it, since you feel personally that it's justified, that it's perfectly okay without caring a damn about what other people will think or say. Punching a man on accident once and saying sorry might be fine, but if you do it every two or three months, how many punches is the man going to take before you learn not to punch him - or before he punches back?

We get that you're not perfect, but you seem to think that just because some wording is acceptable to you, that that's all it needs to be. It doesn't. You have to think about how other people will react to what you say, before you say them - not after, and you can only apologize so many times before it sounds just as rote as "God Bless America" or "God Save the Queen."


Also, note that the "example" of me misbehaving that Altima decided to show was one from over a year ago. Hardly a recent example....I've given more recent ones, so don't hide behind the "that was then, this is now" excuse. That whole "nazi" flare-up was maybe three months ago if that.


And, when is the last time I "got antagonistic" about Sakura not being in a story? I don't go around ranting and raving at people, I just post my opinion. The problem is that it sounds antagonistic to you, and it's not like you bother to listen to my opinion.It isn't just stories, it's other things. Again, if anyone has any sort of different opinion of Sakura than yours, you feel the need to step in. If someone wants to write a story where she's not treated how you feel she should be treated, you can't resist coming in and disparaging them.

You may feel it's wrong. Fine! Nothing wrong with that. But then don't read the story, and don't tear into the author for it. Not everyone is going to write the sort of stories you would like. Do you realize you've created a culture where some people are literally afraid to write about her precisely because they feel you will not react well to it? Or that some people avoid mentioning her at all because of the same reasons? In a way, you're doing more harm for Sakura's reputation than you seem to realize!

I happen to like Rin, but I don't care if someone makes a story where in the very first sentence she's brutally tortured, raped, and killed, or if someone makes her out to be a complete, stuck-up bitch, or whatever - I simply wouldn't read it (although in practice, I probably would see if there's at least a reason why they chose that interpretation, but that's writer's mindset for you) but if I didn't like it, I'd simply not comment on it, or if I did, I'd make it constructive at least, without having to resort to calling the author names, telling them they're "wrong," and so on. You, on the other hand, will almost certainly at least begin to read any story with Sakura in it, but you'll savagely tear the author a new one if she is portrayed in some way that you would not agree with.

Simply put, the fact that you will try to push your views of Sakura on everyone else is half the reason a lot of people here either dislike her, do not involve her, or want anything to do with her. You've literally wrecked her for people, in the name of trying to encourage people to use her "right" by your own opinion. Nobody is saying you can't have your opinion, but this is easily one of the biggest complaints about you - and we both know just how polarizing any argument on Sakura will become, because of this.

You know what they say about opinions - they're like assholes as everyone has one and most of them stink. It still doesn't give you any sort of reason to think that literally shitting on an author's work, just because you, personally, did not like it, is fair. If your criticism can't be more fair and less hostile to the author, then you shouldn't say it at all. I'm not saying you have to pretend you like it, but you definitely can't come out with hellfire and brimstone, or step into any conversation on her to "protect" her and say what is "right." You're not the definitive authority on Sakura; hell, none of us are the definitive authority on ANY character - Nasu is, if anyone, but even most of us disagree with that.

Simply put, as was said in the note, if you can't say it nicely, don't say it at all. If you wouldn't put it in those exact words to the person's face, it's not something you should be typing out over text.


See, the thing is, they actually haven't discussed this with me.You almost always tend to take things worse in private than in public. We figured you would see a private message about this as some kind of threat, and an attempt to do it "behind closed doors" - so that's why we did this in public, so that it's no massive, secret conspiracy to be rid of you, and so that people know why we feel the way we feel.


Well, what gets me here is the sudden "right, this is a last chance" thing. Hell, I've not even been given so much as a temp ban for the blog post, and yet they are taking it as a reason to threaten me with a permaban.

OK, so I do have issues, I accept that, but I am not anything like as bad as they seem to think. I explode occasionally, yes, but it's not really all that often, and when I do it is often as much an issue with the mods as with me. In particular, their communication is absolutely terrible, particularly the last time I got temp-banned.As I said before, yours was no better. You asked a few times in that thread, and when you didn't immediately get a reply, off came the gloves and we had a blogpost. Instead of coming to us, or even waiting a little while, you did that all within the span of a few hours at most. The bit of "communication" goes both ways; and is further complicated by how you would react to such things.


Honestly, that was the main issue behind my blog post. I simply do not trust the mods and admins to communicate with me effectively or to address the (entirely legitimate) issue I raised, hence me making a blog post. I was a little harsh on IRUn, but there's no way in hell that deserves what they've done here.And yet I clearly remember our conversation the last time. Something along the lines of "If you got problems with the mods, come find me, my MSN is on my profile." You clearly failed to do so here. You tried to talk with them both in the thread and in VM; when they didn't reply, your next step should have been to try to seek me or another admin out. My personal feelings for you aside, if you come to me with a concern or a complaint, I will absolutely look into it. You are a member of this community too, and I would do the same for any member here who's in good standing, whether they're a "troublemaker" or not (even if you think I won't). Whether I'll agree is another matter entirely, but if you don't take that initiative, then we don't have many other choices when we see an angry blog come out of left field, since you'll probably only want to talk to two out of the four of us - certainly not Altima anymore, and I think you'd rather avoid me like the plague. This is also part of why we decided to make this public from the start, rather than talk to you about it privately first - because while you keep saying "they don't talk to me," you don't talk to us when there's a problem either.

I told you this had to go both ways. You can't have us communicating with you, if you won't communicate with us, because for communication, both people need to speak AND listen. I'll speak and listen to you, but if you won't speak or listen to me, communicating with you on an issue is pointless.


Hell, they talk about explosions, but that blog post was not an "explosion". It was written entirely rationally and sensibly, and pointed out genuine issues. Sure, it was quite strongly-worded, but that's just how I speak.

The issue I have with the mods is a lack of trust, and honestly my trust in them has absolutely plummeted now, given the lack of care about me they seem to be showing here, and the unfair way they've suddenly jumped on me. Not to mention the false statements that I have not got better, when I actually have in some ways.In some ways, yes, but again, apologizing "after the fact" only goes so far - you need to show a serious improvement in curbing the behavior BEFORE it happens, not after the fact. You don't take the opinions of how "the other side" will see your points into consideration at all, essentially - did you really think such a strongly-worded blogpost would not gain a reaction from the mods?

It's a crude example, but how many times did you have to be told to lift the lid on the loo when you take a whizz, before you did it? If you're like most males, it went through a period of being told it repeatedly, then eventually you realized at one point you should've done it (and cleaned your mess up), then it got to the point where you mostly did it but would forget once in a great while, and then eventually it became second nature. This is what we need to get you in the habit of doing - when your anger gets the best of you, you need to remember other people are going to see and read what you say - especially the accused. Strong words never go well with accusation; if anything, they're more likely to get a hostile response (which, again, is part of the reason we made this a public discourse and not a private one - you say you take private warnings better, but in our experience, you take private warnings worse, especially since you flat out would rather have nothing to do with two of the admins and most of the mods).


Yeah, this is something I do not like at all. It just makes people worried and unsure of their situation.It's not like prison, where you're given a hard sentence and that's it. While I won't say the cooldown times, I will say they're proportional - i.e; the worse you did, the longer it is - and none of them are really super-unreasonable. Even then, when an offense is committed under the cooldown period, we do still debate if it's worth ratcheting up the tempban time, nor is even the cooldown time "set" - there's been times where we've let someone off the hook early. Some people even impose their own cooldown times (Flame asked me to ban him for a month after his incident; I refused, and so he administered a self-imposed one).

It might seem worrying, but the simple fact is, if you don't try to break the rules, you have nothing to really be worried about. For you, you're mostly fine and we only have issues when you get too heated. The problem is, while they're maybe somewhat better now, how many times are we going to have to deal with you getting angry over something every 2-3 months and shooting yourself in the foot? There's only so many times we can deal with it before eventually people get tired of dealing with it, and it's really starting to hit that point.


Yeah, honestly, it does come across like that, although I'm sure that wasn't their intention.

Honestly, there are areas in which I've got better and areas in which I've got worse. I explode at the other forumites a lot less now than I used to and, for that matter, I explode at the mods a lot less severely. The difference is that, a year ago, I generally trusted the admins, so I didn't tend to argue with them that much. Now, I don't, so I argue a lot more. But, the actual arguments are not particularly abusive, and certainly are nothing I would get banned for were they not mods. I am just expressing my genuine opinion calmly and rationally.Again, three months ago you were calling us nazis. Your latest one, you began with "abuse of power" right in the damn title. And later on in the post, you did get more aggressive:


Further, when I pointed this out, both in the thread and on IRUN's VM wall, I have been entirely ignored. He can't even be bothered to give me the courtesy of a reply. Not only does he make totally arbitrary irreverisible decisions like this, he doesn't even have the guts to defend them when they are questions. And, for that matter, nor can the other mods be bothered to. All they are doing is ignoring my complaints, presumably hoping I would just go away.

I will, again, note that you gave him at most an hour or two to reply, and that you failed to come to an admin with that. He's certainly not on the board at all times, and just because you feel the issue is pressing, doesn't mean it actually is. He has to check over the whole forum, remember, and from what he said, he would've replied to you if you'd have given him more time. Instead, he got a blogpost, which puts it pretty accusationally.

We're not going to just drop everything to reply to you. He probably should've said "I'll get back to you on that" at least, but you still should've came to an admin if you felt he was snubbing you.


Exactly. OK, I'm not perfect, but I am improving, as much as the mods seem incapable of recognising that.

I think the issue is that my relationship with the mods and admins has steadily broken down over time, due to a combination of my naturally anti-authoritarian attitude, their rather suddenly and sporadically hardening stance and their quite franky utterly abysmal attempts at communication (DP, who I quite frankly can't stand, becoming an admin and the appointment of the new mods has not helped one bit either). As a result, whilst I've exploded at the rest of the forum a lot less, I've argued with the mods a lot more than I used to (including on the forum), and that is far more noticable to them. Even then, my actual statements to them have become generally a lot harsher, but I'm a lot less respectful of them than I used to because, to be quite honest, I have less respect for them than I used to have.You have improved in some ways, but not in others, as you freely admitted yourself. Just because you trust the mods less, or the admins less, it gives you no right whatsoever to be more disrespectful to them, simply because you don't like them. We're not saying kiss our asses here, but frankly, you wouldn't give the time of day to someone you disliked. I would - that's the difference. Even if I don't like someone, I'll at least hear them out, see what they have to say. You seem to be incapable of this - once your opinion of them is set, it's set, and there's very little it seems they can do to change that. Even if IRUN decided to stop being a mod, you wouldn't like him any more than you do now, you'd probably just put him on ignore when he annoyed you and be done with it. Let's be honest.

Everyone has people they can't stand in this world. For me, it's the Religious Right. For you, it's anyone with authority or power. However, just because I don't like someone, I'm not going to treat them like they're scum because of that, while you have no problem with tearing anyone a new one if they do something you don't like. That's the difference - and it's a big one. It's one we can't have anymore.


Now, this really doesn't have to be as complicated (and emotional) as people are making it to be.

The question is, why are we not having a set of rules that treat all members equally?Really, that's the problem. We were treating everyone else like everyone else, and Mike like Mike. We were holding him to a separate set of rules, essentially, making a mockery of our own rules and words.

We wouldn't take what Mike says from other members if they said so as hostilely as he comes across (perhaps it's not his intention, but it's what happens), so we're simply putting him to the same sort of standard we'd put other posters. Thus why if you read the post we're basically saying "You have to at least be reasonable with how you say things and make efforts to change too." This means not automatically interjecting Sakura into a fic if the author doesn't mention her, not tearing them apart if his interpretation differs, and trying to actively think about how he words things when he does have complaints. He doesn't need to speak like a "diplomat," and we're not telling him to kiss our asses or anything like that, but I shouldn't be accused of having a "clique" who are the only people I would ever give out colored names to (a fairly dumb decision in hindsight, I will freely admit, but still not something I should've been accused of - besides, who'd want to be my friend anyway? :p) or that IRUN doesn't have "the guts to talk to him" simply because he didn't reply immediately.

So essentially, this post is as much about no longer double-standarding things as it is about us letting him know what we'd like to see changed, because the status quo is unworkable. We already had people call for Altima to step down because they thought he was "protecting" Mike almost a year ago, and it's clear that the way he says things is literally discouraging people from discussing Sakura, lest they draw his ire. We can't have that anymore - that's bad for the community as a whole, so we're hoping he sees this and our words not as an ultimatum (so far, so good), but as a sign that really, he needs to change how he says things if he wants to stay here, because as it is, he's essentially keeping people from doing anything with Sakura for one, and then he's also villainizing all of us anytime we do something he doesn't like, and we don't deserve to be crucified like that.

Also, we actually don't want to ban the guy (honest to whatever deity you may or may not believe in on that), but if it comes down to him causing more harm than good to the community as a whole - then what other choice do we have if he can't show he's at least trying to take our repeated requests to heart? Yes, he's less angry to other members, and that's good, but shifting it to us isn't solving the problem - it merely moves it, like sweeping dust under the rugs or robbing Peter to pay Paul. And furthermore, he still has some issues whenever Sakura comes up (or in some cases, because she doesn't come up) that really need to be addressed. We've let that status quo go on too long, and it's starting to get to the point where it was bad for the board. There was a group at another messageboard who were actually targeting him, and he is one of the reasons we do have a bad reputation among some other people.

So if it comes down to the community's overall viability, or him being here, the community has to take importance. We don't want him to leave, but if he can't make an effort to change that (and it by no means has to be perfect, flawless change - but we'd like to at least know he's trying) then what other choices do we have?


Right, yeah, because obviously the mods can't possibly listen to everyone telling them that they've fucked up again. I mean, we can't have actual dissent....Ah, see? Here we go. "The mods fucked up again." Not "They made a choice I don't like," but "The mods fucked up again."

This is exactly the sort of thing we're trying to bring to your attention. This sort of language comes off as very hostile, aggressive, and overall unwelcome.

We would have no problem with the former. We have plenty of them with the latter. This is one of the things we're trying to ask you think about and change. Again, you don't have to make it super-respectful, kiss our asses, anything like that - but you do have to consciously think about how people will react to a statement like "the mods fucked up again." The former implies we made a choice you don't like; the latter implies we're a bunch of idiots who wouldn't know how to run a board if the instructions were typed out in front of us.

So please, look out for things like this.


And? What the hell is wrong with me suggesting something like that when it fits?Nothing. It's in "how you said it" once again. And the fact that if the author says "It's not what I want to do," you will keep pushing for it regardless, or lamblast them for refusing.

We get that you like Sakura, but not everyone is going to hold her in such high esteem or automatically include her in a story they do. You do need to learn to accept that. It's fine to ask an author why they didn't include her, but it should by no means have to be a requirement that she be involved in a story unless it's obviously outside of a time where she could be around (i.e; a 100% OC Story, or one preceding her birth or following her death). This is something you do have to work on, since you have turned off many, many people from discussing her or writing about her, because if they do say she will be in it, but it doesn't hold up to what you like, you tend to grill them about it. You may not mean to, but again, due to your word choice, it's exactly what it comes off as.


That was a fic idea, that is totally different. Fic ideas exist for discussion, saying "hey, this is how you could add Sakura" is entirely legitimate.

I won't deny that I'm Sakura-centric, but that does not in any way fit what they are saying.Again, that's not the problem. The problem is, sometimes, people simply don't want to add Sakura, and you take that very, very poorly.


I have written the profile, at least in part. I think it's unfair for someone to jump in at such late notice and take someone else's spot.

I could easily have tried to go for the role of Tokiomi, but I avoided it because I didn't think it'd be fair on KT.I'm not privy to the full details on this, but the right thing to do, if you were interested, was to say "I'm claiming them now and will have the profile up soon because I have to write it" or something to that effect.


You know, for all you complain about my blog about IRUn, at least I gave him the chance to respond before I made that post, even if I was a little hasty. You just posted this whole thing publically without talking to me at all.You gave him maybe an hour or two. And again, you still failed to come to the admins.


Sorry, but that is their fault, not mine. As long as I am not harrassing new authors about their lack of Sakura, then it is not my fault if they take my entirely legitimate actions in other discussions to be an indication of me jumping on them.The problem is, you jump in so often you make people wary about the very idea of writing her, or writing for her. Again, the ones who do, you will be looking at it and criticizing it if it does not meet with your ideal interpretation.

The problem is, everyone's interpretation of characters is different. There are some who see Rin as a stuck-up bitch, or Tokiomi as a cruel, heartless man. There is no one, single, "true" way to define a character - such is one of the more interesting and subtle flavors of a different author writing.

As far as Sakura goes in that regard, you will not stop pushing for what you want, which makes some authors not bother, and the ones who do tend to get badgered about why they did it a certain way, and even if they explain that, you basically rules-lawyer with them over it, over something they wrote themselves! If anyone's going to have a definitive interpretation of the fanfic, it's going to be the author.

It's fine to like a character and advocate for her, but it eventually gets to the point where it's not advocating so much as trying to cram her down throats if there's any way to fit her in at all. The only way people can avoid this is if they do a story where she has no possibility of appearing in the slightest, because to you, if she could be there, she should be there - no exceptions. Other people disagree, but you won't allow that. Simply put, authors should not feel "forced" to include a certain character, nor write them in a certain way, to appease one poster, who has the ability to, by virtue of his favor for her, literally scare some people off from writing about her in any way, shape, or form.

In my opinion, that is a bad thing for the long-term health of this community, and it needs to change. Or to put it more bluntly, if someone doesn't include Sakura automatically, or doesn't write her like how you think she should be written, then feel free to give an opinion, but they wrote it how they wanted to. If you want it done to your satisfaction, the only way you're going to get it done is to do it yourself.


If it was just "don't explode at people", then I could at least try to do that, but the way they're picking up on a fairly innocuous blog post as the "final straw" makes it pretty clear that I also cannot express my opinion any more. If I call a mod a fascist, that gets me a ban (even if I think it's true), and if I point out what seemed to me at the time to be mod abuse of power, I get a ban.The problem isn't the isolated incidents, it's the pattern - namely, that anytime the staff does something that you don't like, you make it out like we're either a bunch of goose-stepping leaders, or that we don't know how to tie our own shoelaces because they make a decision you disagree with.

The pattern is simple: Mod/Admin makes a decision that Mike doesn't like, Mike makes an angry blogpost or forum post that tends to call them not very nice things. Simply put, while there is effort to try to turn down the anger to the members (and we thank you for that by the way), shifting it to the mods and admins is unacceptable. You have to tone it down for everyone, Mike. For that to happen, you have to want it to happen, and on that front, you admit freely you don't trust or like us very well. Unfortunately, this doesn't give you the "right" to treat us any less than any other member just because of our positions. Or are you saying that if I stepped down as admin, you'd magically think better of me? I doubt that, so let's not mince words here.

We want you to treat everyone equally. That means not going after people if they don't include Sakura, not trying to cram your interpretation of her down someone's throat if it differs, and if you wouldn't be calling other forum members fascists, we shouldn't be called that either. (Note this is not giving you permission to do so.)


I am someone who says what I see without really sugar-coating it, that is just how I am. Elf has previously stated that she also feels that way, but yet she seems to feel justified in threatening me with a ban for doing that, even when I'm really not being particularly harsh. I cannot simply gain tact overnight, that is just not how I am, and the mods do not seem to appreciate that at all. It's one thing to say "don't get angry", but they can't even accept perfectly calm criticism, and given how little trust I now have for them, I can't see that being something that is stable in the long term.Again, this isn't for the single incident, it's for the repeated pattern. Was this a lot softer than your previous blog? Yes, but it still was pretty unfair to IRUN, and you did still essentially call him out by saying he didn't have the "guts" to talk about it immediately. And, again, you didn't come to an admin as you should have - something I'd thought we made clear (and agreed upon) the last time he did something you didn't like.


I don't intend to leave, if they want to get rid of me they are going to have to take responsibility for it, but given their attitude I don't see this working out. It's one thing to say "don't explode" (although it's not that simple), but they're going further than that. Altima claims I can trust him, but he has provided no evidence to demonstrate this, and nor has Elf for that matter. The last time I got banned showed how little that was true, and, despite all their promises to communicate better and try to deal with issues more effectively, the next time anything even remotely serious came up, I got this. Hardly a good way to engineer trust or respect.People are capable of change, and I think the change we are asking for isn't unreasonable change. We're not expecting you to be a perfect little angel, who never gets angry - but we want to see you're at least making an effort to reel yourself in and bite your tongue sometimes, and we expect that if you do leave an opinion, that it not be something that's going to start another argument or fight. I make it clear that on a personal level I may not think very highly of you, but you don't see me calling you things, do you? No, because that's insulting to you. So in kind, I'd appreciate it if the staff doesn't get called fascists, and that if you have a problem to the mods, you come seek out the admins rather than soapboxing about your issues with them. If someone doesn't automatically include Sakura in a story, feel free to ask them why they didn't, but if they don't want to, they don't want to - it's that simple. If their interpretation of her differs from yours, feel free to ask why it does, but ultimately, they're the ones who wrote it, so if they don't agree with yours, then that's that.


And, then, they start complaining about the lack of respect I have for them. Sorry, but in my view, respect is something you earn, and the actions of the mods over the last month or so have certainly not done that. Obviously, I will have to at least try to fake that respect, since you basically threatened me into it, but I assure you that, at this point, that is all it is, fake. You're going to have to do a hell of a lot if you want me to get back the kind of real respect I used to have for (most of) you.Again, shifting your anger from the users to the mods isn't any more acceptable than it was keeping it to the users. We're people too. If you wouldn't say it to my face, you shouldn't say it to a post, or a blog. I know you don't care for me, I'm fine with that (honestly); I care surprisingly little about how much people like me to be quite frankly honest and I never desired to be seen as one of the popular kids in school. But if you have a problem on the forums, then you probably need to talk to me (or at least another admin), rather than do things your own way. Your own way is not working for this community, and in fact, some of your behaviors actively harm it. Since we are the ones who want this community to grow, this means it's our responsibility to do all we can to make it do so - and that means trying everything we can to make it a place where people can discuss things freely. That includes Sakura, and it includes that we should be treated at least humanely, and not have to be called gutless or fascists. You don't have to kiss our asses, and we've always said that all along, but you do need to at least not look at us like we're scum of the Earth because you don't like how we feel this place is best run.


Right, so, in other words "it ain't my fault, but I'm not going to actually tell you who is at fault".

If you lot are going to stab me in the back, you should at least have the fucking decency to admit that you are doing it. Don't hide behind anonymity whilst you're pretending to be my friends, that is just plain two-faced. I want to know what you all think on the matter, honestly and truthfully, and I don't want any bullshit.

I'm sick of being lied to, tricked, given half-truths and treated generally like I'm unimportant. I want to know what the fucking hell is going on. I think I am fully entitled to know who is screwing me over and why."Stab me in the back." Again, language. Someone makes a decision against you, and now they're Benedict Arnold.

And for what it's worth, the mods and the admins agreed on this in whole. As for the decision of who would write it, that's simple - Elf felt I would be too verbose (and she's right, look at how fucking long this reply is), RB wouldn't have really given it the necessary terseness, and Altima, well, he's the one who posted it but if he wrote it, you wouldn't exactly have taken it well, given that you had your falling-out with him. None of us wanted to do it, but one of us had to do it, and ultimately, she herself felt she was the best one for it. So she did, and I feel so bad about having put her through it that I really am thinking about sending her a few things as an apology, little as it probably means. She's definitely hurt over writing it. I can't say I blame her because nobody wants to do that, especially if they consider that person a friend.

Kyte
October 23rd, 2012, 12:21 AM
I'm still amazed you guys finally manned up and admitted what everyone had been accusing you (and you'd been frantically denying for the past few months) of being.

Maybe there's still hope for you guys.

Santo
October 23rd, 2012, 12:27 AM
@Darples: Don't worry man. I like you.

http://imageshack.us/a/img217/850/68782d1341195339somuchg.jpg

Cruor
October 23rd, 2012, 02:59 AM
Wow just checked review post and wow, ARE YOU READY GUYS FOR THE WALL OF TEXT AFTER 8 PAGES?

Alright, I am an asshole who just wrote out all of his thoughts while reading this thread page by page at real time and decided to post it (no literally like a quarter of the way through reading the thread I just decided to put all my thoughts of the posts. I also thought that you can get a sense of the average users thoughts? I guess. I am plain nuts just to do this in the first place). Everything is as per usual of me acting like I have a nonbiased opinion or rather seeing from a different light every paragraph when I honestly don't think I really put much of my real opinion.

--

Okay I am someone who does not support banning on this forum simply because this forum has warped my thought process to mean that people being banned = less people to argue with (and also 'Free Nahash 2012' totally banks on there being no bans lolololol). So I will attack both arguments without actually knowing the full story. And without a doubt I completely agree with TW and RR121 (or rather I'm melding their completely opposite statements together). When I came into this thread and began reading I was fully expecting that you were going to say that you (the admin and mod team) were going to ban Mike and he only had a few days left or something and was 'let down' (because of all the build up it was the only thing I expected to happen) when it was just a final warning (and which could be considered another reason people could point out as special treatment).


Beast’s Lair has lost many members due to Mike’s actions and open hostility. Multiple members have left the board altogether while others who were original posters rarely venture onto BL anymore due to Mike’s open aggression on subject matters concerning, or those he forcefully concerns, Sakura. It has gotten to the point where BL has gathered infamy, and not of a positive note, due to Mike’s belligerent conduct.
This is almost entirely because of Nahash 'chasing off Nerroth to almost stop posting completely' as Mike put it. Pretty much Nahash destroyed Nerroth which must have affected Mike pretty deeply as the trio of Mike, Nerroth, and Altima were seen as Sakura's paragons on the old forum and were all good friends. He actually said that this is pretty much the entire reason he hates Nahash despite admitting that he never really talked to him until he started 'reincarnating'.

This can also be explained as him pretty much throwing the hate train as he is completely paranoid and seems to think that everyone is from 4chan writing elaborate fics without Sakura of a 6th Holy Grail War located in Fuyuki, again, without Sakura. And started the fic with a bent on chance that they could annoy the Sakura train.


He has made his vehement distaste for the Admin and Mods publically known to the point of insulting us in blog posts or in open discussion. We understand that there are other members baiting Mike, but he goes far beyond a reasonable response for being baited. Most of our users are rather peaceful, but we do try to deal with the “Bad Eggs” as they come along. Case in point, Crying_Vegeta.
Most of the members are peaceful doesn't mean they are venomous. I will admit, that I have personally started insulting someone without actually saying anything really because they started badmouthing another user (in this case they were badmouthing arai and food who I have respect for). Nnow there is no point for me to reply to this other then as a personal quirk so I should delete this but I don't want to. Anyway, while I think we aren't actually saying anything we are actually pretty hostile to each other and therefore we are no family with each other QQ.


He makes new fanfiction writers uncomfortable. Fanfiction is fanfiction, it is a work made by a fan for other fans on subject matter they enjoy. Which may not include Sakura. Handing out constructive criticism if she’s not characterized properly is one thing, but flaming is not appropriate. If one cannot find anything constructive to say, then simply leave. Demanding a character be injected in a fic if he or she doesn’t belong doesn’t do any good. Especially if the Author doesn’t know how to “handle” said character nor had any plans for them in their story.

We have seen multiple cases where Mike has gotten antagonistic about the treatment or lack of treatment that writers have given Sakura in their fanfiction. It has gotten to the point where new Authors who would have positive and entertaining content uncomfortable to post here. Which is something we do not want. Our fanfiction community is perhaps the busiest part of the site. We want people to feel welcome here.

I have to say I completely agree with this (maybe not in the last few months as I haven't visited Fanfics much since Curtis disappeared ;_;) but I definitly have seen Mike openly harass people for not fixing Sakura's situation during Fanfics involving a 6th Holy Grail War or an UBW True/Good ending where Shirou goes to London and like, totally never visits Fuyuki again and he still expects them to fix Sakura's situation. Those kinda arguments probably began on old GD where we actually spent like a good 40-50 pages on this alone because Mike seriously can argue with 20 people at once. And I have to admit we (GD) are the ones at fault for that kind of topic (I actually think he only began that topic after someone made a thread asking what does everyone think would happen to Sakura Post-nonHF. And Mike was a GD main browser early in his 'career'). Anyway, Mikes is definitely at fault to bring up, or rather to constantly bring up this topic against pretty much every Post FSN Fanfic that did not address this topic. The fact that I also can't stand constant plot holes (or rather just things I view as just pure PLOT) are the main reasons I don't read much Fanfics anymore unless its unbelievably silly/awesome (like Curtiiiiissssss) or what I think is a pretty interesting concept (like the only non silly thing I read since new BL was pretty much the two or three month period or so when everyone kept releasing Zero no Tsukaima-TM Crossovers those were interesting as hell until they just stopped. But yeah, I am slightly exaggerating when I said its the only but again I'm using this as an example).


Being hostile to the Admins and Mods. This was already mentioned above, but I’ll go into more detail here. We have lives and aren’t on line 24-7, our names are neither Clark Kent or Bruce Wayne. Everyone gets a response, but there maybe a few hour wait time. Flying off the handle if a response is not given within minutes is severely unreasonable.

Then when we have to make a decision against Mike’s behavior after he’s become aggressive and antagonistic, we are automatically called facists, Nazis, and unfair. Even though those of us who are his friends, such as Altima and myself, have given him chances and friendly warnings to cool down, but they’re not heeded. Then when we do have to, regrettably, step down we are automatically insulted and harassed about having to do our jobs to keep peace on the forum.

Honestly, any other forum would have banned him a long time ago. However we have given him multiple chances to change, and he has promised that he would change. Yet we have not seen that promise take effect yet even after we’ve given him admittedly special consideration that we may not have given other members. We’ve bent over backwards trying to help him, but it’s been a thankless task and made already stressful lives even more stressful.

Honestly, I think he is just plain silly with this. It was already well known that he hated authority but when he started going around calling people fascist and were taking advantage of their power I seriously didn't know how to react especially when he started saying that to tobias and Irun.


Having overly heated arguments with other members. I will admit that there are members of this forum who openly “troll” Mike. We handle these trolls as they come and have handed out warnings and temporary bans because of this. A friendly bit of rivalry is fine and expected, but to get outright hostile is not.

However Mike has instigated as many arguments as he has had started against him. His hair trigger temper gets the better of him. I understand getting pissed off, but there’s an old Native American saying, “Giving someone your anger gives them their power over you.” There should be a point where one walks away, or figure out how to get your point across without being an antagonistic wanker.
Well, starting arguments on BL is commonplace. I can think of quite a few very argumentative people with pretty midsized boiling points like Mellon/ratstsrub/food/etc. (I'll have you know that I <3 all three of the people I mentioned and have argued with them many times. But rats and food are some sarcastic and pretty condescending wihtout really saying anything when annoyed. But they are two of my favorite users on this board). So I don't think this point is a major one (I think Mike's main problem is his harrassment. Which, I think is your main point too just that this is a supporting material which is completely justfiable in an arguement I just ended up going from singling out certain points to stating my thoughts on each part of the post and I happen to be a completionist lololol).


Broken promises of change. When we started the new forum, Mike apologized about his abhorrent behavior in the past to Altima and said he was going to change. He promised to be less hostile and sharp with his tongue. If anything he’s gotten worse over the time the new forum has been up.

We’ve gone to great lengths, more so than most members, to explain to him why his behavior is troublesome. He complains about the rules and doesn’t abide by them. Our rules are simple and made for the enjoyment of the community so that it’s not a hostile environment here like other forums. He states in another circumstances he’d act differently, but he hasn’t. We’ve given him multiple chances, more so than we would other members.
Honestly I didn't think this was such a big problem until I started reading the thread. Yes, this is a major problem even currently. I thought he quelled for a few months came back because the mods did something to him and started making back to back blog posts seeming to incite anarchy. You will see my thoughts on this when I start quoting Mike.


OK, wow, that's really harsh to suddenly dump this on me, just because of a blog post which really wasn't that offensive at all. OK, I did screw up, but it's not at all true that I "don't change" and don't take notice of it. But, I'm not perfect, and I will make mistakes. And, it seems like you're unwilling to accept that.

- - - Updated - - -

Oh, and thanks for the fucking big "please troll me" target on my back, too, that's really helpful.

- - - Updated - - -

And, also, it seems like you just can't take criticism. As soon as I make any kind of attack (and a justified one, at that) on your moderation, I get a threat like this. OK, so what I said to IRUn was a little unfair, and I apologise for that, but I think you are taking this way too far.


And, as for attacking you, I do that because your communication skills are quite frankly terrible. Such as the last ban I got, for example, which you gave me without any discussion or any chance to apologise.

I will admit that I do make mistake and get angry, but it does not happen that often, and I do post a hell of a lot. I don't think that my behaviour comes even close to justifying a permaban, and I am extremely dissapointed in you for threatening me with such and putting all this pressure on me. If I could just not explode at people, I would, it's really not that simple. I make mistakes, everyone makes mistakes, including you. Hell, Elf, you admitted that the last time you banned me it was because you were in a grouchy mood. But, apparently, only admins are allowed to make mistakes, us normal users just get banned.

- - - Updated - - -



It was undoubtedly wrong, although I think what they're objecting to is the statement that it was an "abuse of power", which was admittedly a little strong. Even so, I do not think that my blog post was really all that bad, and I think that threatening me with a ban for it just proves they cannot handle criticism.

- - - Updated - - -

Also, note that the "example" of me misbehaving that Altima decided to show was one from over a year ago. Hardly a recent example....

Alright, this is the exact kind of thing Elf was talking about. It honestly made me groan seeing these posts. No it does not seem like you learned your lesson. Now if I was an admin or mod bent on enforcing rules on other forums I might very well ban you for this as you are pretty much saying outloud that you have not learned your lesson (at the very least in my eyes). No matter how unjust it seems. But yeah, since I'm under the 'Free Nahash 2012' party I will say okay and not really commentate.


Hrm....

I disapprove of this post, for a few reasons. As everyone is aware by now, no doubt, I disapprove of many of Mike's behaviors, and so forth, but I find this post pointless. First of all, its a laundry list of his flaws. Thanks, I guess? I mean, we knew that. Why are we airing them here, publically? Now, I freely admit that the admins have no doubt attempted to bring these up in private, with limited to no results. I get that. However, posting these publically seems to encourage trolling, and is extremely unlikely to affect Mike in any way, or improve his attitude.

In my opinion, corrective action should be clearly and explicitly defined, with clear negative consequences based on behavior. For one, I do not approve of the strange dichotomy between "allowed to do whatever" and "banned forever". Tempbans, removal of rights to post temporarily while retaining blog rights, and restrictions upon what forums may be posted upon are legitimate ways to provide punitive action before we devolve into a permaban. So far, I believe we've only seen tempbans, and even then, the actual "cooldown period" is vague and undefined. I understand that's to prevent people trying to game the system, but human corrective action can be taken in those cases if we see people behaving only while their cooldown is in effect.

On the whole, I find this post slightly...vindictive, which I find unappealing. I understand that the admins have a difficult job, and have been attempting to deal with this issue for awhile, but it strikes me that corrective action should be taken cleanly and without public humiliation, as this post seems to imply.

I completely agree with this post, as I said in the begininng, if it was going to be like this it might as well have been in private as TW said. As this like Mike said, puts a huge 'troll me' sign on his back. Because there seems to be no point in letting us see this as it isn't exactly nesecarry other then to show that you are dealing with Mike.


And, when is the last time I "got antagonistic" about Sakura not being in a story? I don't go around ranting and raving at people, I just post my opinion. The problem is that it sounds antagonistic to you, and it's not like you bother to listen to my opinion.
Now being the uninformed plebeian I am I don't know but Ii have seen you be openly antangonistic towards multiple people/writers with the similar arguements.


Well, what gets me here is the sudden "right, this is a last chance" thing. Hell, I've not even been given so much as a temp ban for the blog post, and yet they are taking it as a reason to threaten me with a permaban.

OK, so I do have issues, I accept that, but I am not anything like as bad as they seem to think. I explode occasionally, yes, but it's not really all that often, and when I do it is often as much an issue with the mods as with me. In particular, their communication is absolutely terrible, particularly the last time I got temp-banned.

Honestly, that was the main issue behind my blog post. I simply do not trust the mods and admins to communicate with me effectively or to address the (entirely legitimate) issue I raised, hence me making a blog post. I was a little harsh on IRUn, but there's no way in hell that deserves what they've done here.

Hell, they talk about explosions, but that blog post was not an "explosion". It was written entirely rationally and sensibly, and pointed out genuine issues. Sure, it was quite strongly-worded, but that's just how I speak.

The issue I have with the mods is a lack of trust, and honestly my trust in them has absolutely plummeted now, given the lack of care about me they seem to be showing here, and the unfair way they've suddenly jumped on me. Not to mention the false statements that I have not got better, when I actually have in some ways.
From my recollection you have been temporairly banned before (with both Public and Private warning iirc) and you have not had your slate cleaned from what I know so I can only assume that you are on 'death row' here according to the rules they put up which we all voted for. We are supposed to be Banned after any real occurance after the Temporary Ban which I guess I have to attribute as you being a special case for surviving (and I agree with your history and current situation it can place you as someone special but yea, from what I remember the people who wanted the rules to be like it is did it because they wanted you to be dissuaded by these rules).


Honestly, I do agree that this is too much. Why couldn't they have just PMed him this, instead of making it a public affair? For that matter, what Sakura talking? I'll be honest here, I don't go to the Fanfiction section as I used to, because...because. But the places I do go now, (GD, Anime and Manga, the other GD, 7th, some Roleplaying) the guy hardly talks about her now, and everybody else just doesn't bash her. I feel that bringing that up was unnecessary.

Again I melded the arguments of this and RR121's as I believe they synergize very well each other despite the fact that I know that RR121 is 'anti-Mike' and TW is as Nahash put in a PM to me 'Mike's servant of justice' or whatever [pretty much he started his reincarnations he told me how much he will 'enjoy' the current BL userbase Nahash #1. Wait, this is totally not collusion, right? You figured out that was Nahash pretty fast, right? Right?])


*Blinks*

You know, I usually kind of consider myself kind of a chill person. I mean, I have my rage moments, but these are rare, and pretty far away from one each other.

But I still feel like saying, with a pretty angry tone, that now you are freely admitting that?

I mean, it has been a long time since then, but you know that the insistence on not admitting that whole thing with giving him special treatment is what made me wall off out of most of the forum and enclose myself in the RP section?

I think it is one of the few moments that I can say that the whole BL drama has come near making me genuinely upset.


And this. After so long of hearing "no special treatment", now you say you gave him special treatment? You don't get it both ways.

Again, I think it was quite obvious that he was always getting a lot deeper consideration (or rather more admin battering back and forth if you'd like to be a jerk and call it that) then others. Now I will be pretty general as I do not know how the admin team works or how they look at things, and I will definitely apologize now and say how sorry I am to say this as I already feel terrible and want to throw up and am totally saying this as a complete show of ignorance and that I should totally get hit by a bus and have cancer to makes my dick sterile and slowly lose all my body functions after this. But I will say, lets look at food's ban during the April Fools joke, with food they just went out and banned him after he started heavily flaming Mike. Totally he deserved it. Now I'm not saying if Mike did it they wouldn't ban him but with him they would have thought about the situation even moreso (and indeed they did think when banning food, they mentioned that they believe the fact that situation lasting the entire day along with the fact that some members genuinely not liking the idea and were openly complaining was leading to a very toxic environment) however they've taken months of abuse and complaints before giving Mike his first and second temporary ban (I believe he's had two? I'm sorry just to show my ignorance even moreso I am not sure how many he's received). I should honestly go commit seppuku now.


Yeah, I understand that. A lot of the issue is that that's just how I tend to speak. Even if I'm actually not acting hostile, it does often come across that way.

Well, I think there's a difference from say, how I speak (I was/used-to-be called out by multiple people as having an overly aggressive style of speaking especially by newer users or people who don't visit GD. Actually I think origianlly Leopard and I3uster were among the people that thought I was yelling/insulting them originally and had to tell them it was just how I talked. Especially after the new forum was created because they couldn't see my previous posting history. Though, I think I've become a lot more tame [as in a lot less cussing and more joking, I used to like totally talk like a biker/trucker] for awhile now, I'm definitely sure this is because I started playing League of Legends and Dota 2) and what they are referring to in the original post. What you are doing is something like food did to uhh Lycodrake, I think, a few months ago. Kept bringing up numerous plot holes and forcing them to address them. For those that don't know food once said that the summoning system Lyco wanted to use for a fanfic wouldn't work in Nasuverse concepts and Lyco then made a huge emotional reply which led to Hymn getting really annoyed (or rather pissed off) at food. What they are saying is that you do this a lot more then him and kinda way too much. Sorry, I naturally speak nondefinitive but I hope you see my point there.


Guys pls be polite :(

(no, I am not implying anything at all, this is merely preemptive, please do not jump on me and shoot me for saying something)

You and your completely biased opinion, you were already shot and you should be dead but are still alive because of the power of satan you monster[b].


No comment on RacingR's and Altima's posts.

Now, this really doesn't have to be as complicated (and emotional) as people are making it to be.

The question is, why are we not having a set of rules that treat all members [B]equally?

We vote for rules > people complain when some members gets temp banned > admins bring in a most generally accepted mod team > still they spend more time ickering and less deciding = our current situation. They or rather we simply can't decide on rules to be done equally so are instead doing it on a case bycase scenario I assume while generally following the rules we voted for. Which is probably everyone would like the most.



No comment on the Seika-Mike arguement on the next page other then to read my post and look specifically at the part where I am talking about Mike complaining to people about 100% following canon and how he thinks a post UBW or HF6 would go (sorrry this is putting it in much harsher terms because I was being pretty nice in my previous thing).


Okay I've been reading this thread while writing this post and just got to here:

I was the one who wrote the Announcement. It wasn't something I wanted to do, but through decision it is what the Team decided needed to be done. I don't like the idea of banning a friend, but there comes a point where sometimes you have to cut out the cancer so to speak. (Not that I'm saying Mike is a cancer, it's just the best metaphor I can think of right now.)

Anyway, the reason why this was made public was a very clear and simple one.

If we would have privately given Mike the message it would have become public anyway. There have been instances in the past where we have warned Mike, every time, he has gotten angry about it and brought it to public light. When Mike made things public, it always put us in the worse possible light and we couldn't get a word in edgewise.

So, we went preemptive before Mike got on his proverbial soap box.

I was the one who had to write this to get the point across. I did so with a very heavy heart, but boils and lancing and cancer and cutting.

Okay I guess this makes sense from an argument side of things. As it is much harder to get a word in if you have a bad light shed on you I think it might be better to just tell him to not tell anyone this (oh wait sorry I just remembered that an authority figure telling Mike to not tell anyone would probably result with him being more unhappy) as again, this puts a giant troll me sign on his back. And there really is no way to sugar coat that. But yeah, I guess you can say most people thought Mike's had this ultimatum for months now which is why people are surprised to hear that its only now he gets it and immiately whine about special treatment.




No comment on the Elf-Mike personal discussion other then I really wished this was private as it makes me feel guilty.



Kyte/Veisper/Neir-mike thing. They definitely have a history with mike. So I am not one to comment.



The problem isn't making mistakes, the problem is that ultimately your behavior - the core behavior - isn't changing. If you have a problem with the mods, you come to the admins - you don't make up an angry blogpost over it; it's our job to discipline them. We're not on here all the time, so you might have to wait a bit, but nothing extreme.
Again, I will say Mike's first two posts in this thread speak for themself that his he genuinely believes he is doing nothing wrong while harming some (to the point that I would think he was actually trolling [alright as an example to clarify, in League of Legends, the community like all MOBA/DOTA style games is horrible. Players who get banned for being an asshole often go on the forums asking why they were banned gaining large support for an unban until the man that handles bans and whatnot proceeds to bring up things on why they were banned for instance, trolling and that the things the guy was claiming (League of Legends has champions who are considered not viable and if you are pick them you are normally considered trolling but you can't really ban someone if they aren't actually trolling and actually like playing that champion and whatnot) were infact lies and that they had probably been intending the trolling when they chose the champion despite whether or not they played 'seriously' or how they acted when garnering peoples support] but Mike actually genuinely believes he is doing nothing wrong and it could be said that he has been conditioned to act that way from how we originally acted in GD, I can honestly say I feel my second year here probably entirely consisted of arguing with Mike and Dartz so I definitely I at least feel like I understand a bit of their personalities from my experiences because we kinda were jerks to them).



I just realized if I actually quote all of DP's message along with what I already have I might compete the largest non fanfic post..... LETS TRY



I thought the message made it clear, but since it wasn't, anyone who is trolling Mike because of this, in an effort to get him banned, will be punished themselves. Possibly with their own bans. Maybe even permanent ones. So if you're thinking about it: Don't. This wasn't made public so that you could try to get him into blowing up and getting banned.
Well the thing is, I don't really think that follows the established rules and if Mike is infact baited what happens? And I kinda actually thought that this kinda was the case with mike lolololol.



Actually reading through DP's post makes me think I have no room to commentate (As I agree with a lot of it) and that I totally am a thirdwheel in this discussion <_<
DP too good at arguing leaves no room to add on OP. Must have gotten this ability from arguing with Mike.


The color name changes would been okay if you changed everyone's when they asked for it like back on old BL when ana started that old resurgence of doing this. Hinthintwinkwink I am totally not wanting you to do this so I can pretty much be the only left without a different color nick like in old BL.


I actually have to add on that DP and RB were from what I seen were probably perfectly okay with Mike last year (or rather almost two years ago) and it only really became a problem after that. As they were the ones surprised and generaly very accepting and surprised when the drama train started. Though I should point out that at the time DP was disappearing on and off for weeks (which honestly made me feel guilty to know end as I thought that he thought we didn't really like him. I will admit that I didn't like him at first because he came out of nowhere but when he stopped involving with himself often saying he didn't think he was well liked it was very sad and I was very happy when he started posting more) and coming back mainly for updates while RB was being RB coolest guy on board except never posts on new BL. Again this is mainly from what I heard about Altima and Elf apparently jumping guns and whatnot, but yeah, this just goes to show how much I, as a random BLer, knows. Derp.



Fuck why am I making this post if I generally agree with what DP says? Should title it the eyes of this situation from the eyes of a random scrub.

Alright at this point I'm skimming over his post so anything following should have less ground then everything above or rather whatever ground it had.

Oh wait I got to the end. derp. No commento on Kyte's post. Other then a random thought that I actually never really understood Kyte's hate on Mike. I've known Neir since we both joined around the same time (he was a bit after Abe/Tang/tobias/KENTA, I believe, and pretty much only came here for Seventh/Elder Title before branching out iirc.) so I've somewhat understood his annoyance but not really so much as Kyte's (in other words storyime pls I wanna know everything about everyone on this site so I can someday make a huge post containing all the stalker encyclopedia information I've obtained on everyone here ever so they can all use it as a cheat sheet on each other). I am such an asshole.


Now to post this without any editing whatsoever because my post is so huge and I don't even want to look for innumerable red lines I need to change.

Again, random thoughts written at live time without any actual thinking when making the post Mike is completely at fault for this situation it is understandable that he is how he is, etc. now that I've put my thoughts I honestly feel like I lost all interest in the situation. Strange feeling.

This post..... Only took about 4 or so hours. Now to go back to looking for my wallet.... At 3 AM.

Free Nahash 2012, etc.

ZidanReign
October 23rd, 2012, 04:10 AM
Hmm I see....

Well, my stance has been seen already from time to time. At times, Mike can be an okay and helpful guy when lead in the right direction in a conversation.

What I find that irks me is the things he does at times which I find sometimes unneeded, or otherwise useless actions he could have spent being productive or wasting time with something else he might enjoy doing.

I was asked the question once "Why do you *insert activity or pastime here* even though your not going to make something of it in the future?"

I answered simply, "I do it because I like it and I want to continue doing it for no reason other than that."

People call me many things, but I don't let it define me unless I want it too.

Yet, Mike did the aforementioned things from reasons that really do irk me.

I've said my piece. You can chalk it up as whatever you want. I've made my stance.

Mereo Flere
October 23rd, 2012, 04:11 AM
Okay, so you want Mike to change. But you know, it's very difficult for a person to change their habits and attitude by themselves.

Mike needs... I don't know, a counselor of some sort? Someone to talk about something he wants to respond to before he makes actually makes a post. A second opinion, really. Of course, nobody could force Mike to actually listen (and, in fact, that sort of relationship would require Mike to contact the other person first), and it would mean that he wouldn't be able to make a quick response if the other person wasn't online, but...

Well, even I sometimes talk about what I'm going to post. Sometimes I get people to read my posts too, if I'm feeling particularly worked up, which helps me avoid making the worst of the worst of posts. Maybe doing something like that would help Mike.

I mean, yeah, you could just leave it at him being at his final warning, but the overall feeling I get is that everybody expects him to cross the line again at some point if he's just left alone.

I3uster
October 23rd, 2012, 04:15 AM
Just fixing that, I probably never complained about your way of talking Cruor, I hail from 4chan and had to resist calling everyone an asshole/faggot/bitch the whole time for my first few months.

It was an interesting phase.

Merces
October 23rd, 2012, 05:38 AM
So, I'm a nobody here, but I took the time anyway to read this whole thread, and I have to admit I'm quite amazed at the amount of discussion that had been put into the actions of but one user.

This is what I've managed to gather from these four pages and tons of walls of texts (much more than could've ever been done for any one user on any forum whatsoever, I bet) Mike is being himself, but nobody likes that he is himself. Indeed, he has quite a lot of aggressive flaw, and especially about the heroine Sakura it seems. He acts before thinking is my guess, and has been acting more and more carelessly while constantly reassuring himself with his own mind that he's 'improving'.

It's pretty apparent, apart from Mike's own posts of defense, everyone seems to be siding with the mods and admins, agreeing with them. I guess that what I can draw from this is that Mike is in the wrong. This isn't because he's a jerk, but because he's just being himself and isn't really aware of his own lack of self-restraint. I can understand why they had made this public instead of sending it as a private message. From what I've gathered, he probably would've acted like 'a massive secret conspiracy was against him and wanted him gone'.

Indeed, Mike isn't perfect, but so isn't anyone else, and it seems that he frequently forgets this.

I agree with Mereo that what Mike needs is a counselor. Not a perma-ban, because I doubt that would make things any better for anyone, and who knows? He might even create a secondary account just to come back...but anyway, a counselor. The aggressiveness he's had, a lack of self-restraint, I have no idea where these resulted from nor do I really care, but by being himself he's chased off a fair share of users and unintentionally worsened the image of 'Sakura'. Personally, I've a Sakura fan myself, but seriously...even I don't take things too far and accept that everyone has their own opinion.

So yeah. A perma-ban, or even a temp-ban wouldn't solve anything. It'll only make things worse than better, and probably more and more arguments will result...somehow. What Mike needs is someone to help him gain self-restraint. From what I've gathered, he doesn't seem to be able to REALIZE and accept this in his own mind, and because of that, no matter how much he tries to improve himself, he will never truly get any better because he doesn't notice the things he NEEDS to improve.

That's what I think of Mike. My image of him could be totally off, but hey, I had to say something.

And I hope he doesn't wallow to everyone that he's "unimportant" again, because no lone user ever garners this much discussion unless they're either the site creator himself or some crazy admin, neither of which are he. The mods/admins/whatevers themselves admitted that they had given him special treatment, let him off the hook more than a few times, so it's quite obvious that he's important to a load of people on this site. He's important, apparently.


Honestly, if they want to kick me out from the forum for being myself, then they either don't like me or just don't care about me.

This is what I believe is the problem. Because you're 'yourself', you're disturbing a lot of people, and you don't seem to show any want to change into a better person. You may think that you're a good person, and you think everyone else is wrong and you're right (without you even noticing it, your own characteristic trait), and you think everyone else are the jerks while you're the innocent one (who believes that by opposing the oppressive admins/mods, has brought unto himself their wrath), but it's all in your head. No offense, though, I just felt inclined to point out such things straightforward.

A lot of people care about you. This is very evident, the existence of this very thread itself is more than enough to prove that. Though yes, they don't like you for being yourself. Because being yourself, Mike, unfortunately also includes being the kind of annoying guy who forces the creation of this thread after everything's been building up over years.

Personally, the best solution - as disturbing as I know it might sound for you... - is probably to get a counselor, or at least a friend who would listen to everything you have to say and then reply back honestly without sugarcoating anything. From there, you could improve to being a guy who's more socially acceptable on this forum. Kicking you out won't do any good, will it?

I don't know you- Actually, I do, and I thank you for posting on my fanfic more than anyone else. But other than that, I don't know you, and again I could be way off the mark. This is just an opinion I built up after reviewing all the walls of text that make up these four pages. If I'm off the mark - I apologize.

Dark Pulse
October 23rd, 2012, 07:21 AM
I actually have to add on that DP and RB were from what I seen were probably perfectly okay with Mike last year (or rather almost two years ago) and it only really became a problem after that. As they were the ones surprised and generaly very accepting and surprised when the drama train started. Though I should point out that at the time DP was disappearing on and off for weeks (which honestly made me feel guilty to know end as I thought that he thought we didn't really like him. I will admit that I didn't like him at first because he came out of nowhere but when he stopped involving with himself often saying he didn't think he was well liked it was very sad and I was very happy when he started posting more) and coming back mainly for updates while RB was being RB coolest guy on board except never posts on new BL. Again this is mainly from what I heard about Altima and Elf apparently jumping guns and whatnot, but yeah, this just goes to show how much I, as a random BLer, knows. Derp....Bwuh? When did I ever feel I wasn't genuinely liked here for the most part? Either you're confusing me with someone, or all those hits I took to the head a decade ago are starting to really haunt me.

I did start a new job in June 2011 which did take up a lot of my previous time and energy, that might be what you're thinking of. That did keep me out of things for a few weeks until I managed to feel the energy to come back on. (That job sucked, by the way. Glad I quit it this previous June.)

Apple
October 23rd, 2012, 08:12 AM
Doodz, don't ban Mike. Guy just seems to have led a very protected life.

Try a different course of action. Like put up a notification to inform people whom he's had issues with on fanfic forums and the like to put him on ignore. This probably isn't going to solve everything, but then again I only know he does waifu arguments on GD and in fanfic discussion.

And Mike, why are you calling the admins fascist? o_0

deviatesfish
October 23rd, 2012, 08:35 AM
Guys, just decide on something and end this drama however you guys decide on it. It's gone on long enough. There's no point in wavering back and forth. -_-

Seika
October 23rd, 2012, 08:42 AM
Doodz, don't ban Mike. Guy just seems to have led a very protected life.

Try a different course of action. Like put up a notification to inform people whom he's had issues with on fanfic forums and the like to put him on ignore. This probably isn't going to solve everything, but then again I only know he does waifu arguments on GD and in fanfic discussion.
Blech. There are limits to the allowances you can make, and I think affecting so many users for the sake of one is beyond those limits. Presumably if they wanted to use their ignore lists, they'd have already done so. And being sheltered is well and good, but it leads him into thoroughly unpleasant behaviour. No matter the cause, they have to address what actually come of it.

Look, I don't particularly dislike Mike as a person, and he has a good side, but there are a lot of his posts which are another matter entirely. When those posts - immature, obsessive, unconsidered or just deeply aggressive - really begin to damage the forums' health (as they have evidently been judged to do), it's a real problem, and it requires action. It can't be left to fester forever. If this does provoke Mike to change and at last begin to walk away from the situations which have led to the bad side of his posting, then I will be perfectly happy with that, and welcome the continuation of his good posts. I don't need or even particularly want to see him banned so long as the problem is addressed. But if it isn't, then I'd be behind the admin/mod team all the way too.


And Mike, why are you calling the admins fascist? o_0
It's what he does. More-or-less, hmm, every talk with the admins he has involves him calling them fascists and Nazis.

Enhance
October 23rd, 2012, 08:48 AM
There was(were) a (couple of) guy(s) who mentioned a counselor in this thread.
I'm guessing it was a great idea which actually won't, in the end, make it through.

Froggie
October 23rd, 2012, 08:51 AM
A dedicated babysitter?

Seriously?

Seika
October 23rd, 2012, 08:54 AM
Yeah, the practicalities alone ...

Bittersweet
October 23rd, 2012, 09:05 AM
Maybe a total ban is too hasty. I saw something earlier about restricted posting privilages, blogs only?

Even if that isnt feasible, doesn't this forum have usergroups? I know a lot of places have special subforums where they can restrict people to, rather than outright banning. I understand it is a successful feature. It's never too late to change the policy of a still growing and adapting forum. Maybe this sort of thing can be investigated?
It would be very easy. I see there is already a locked subforum that would be perfect for this sort of thing.

deviatesfish
October 23rd, 2012, 09:09 AM
Ugh, half measures. Either choose to do it or don't do it at all! Then we can all get on with our forumlives.

Bittersweet
October 23rd, 2012, 09:13 AM
It's not really a half measure, it's a legitimate method of forum enforcement. I didn't just make it up as a half-assed bandaid fix.

Enhance
October 23rd, 2012, 09:27 AM
How is it, Mike, being in the center of attention?

Anyway, there's no fix to that. You all should know Mike is not a child now, you can't really change him anymore. Why he stayed a child to his age is none of our concern, and there are professionals to help in cases like that. As for his actions, temporary bans are only going to provoke him to write more when he's back, permaban sounds too strict, and restricting forum usage to some parts sounds fine.

Mcjon01
October 23rd, 2012, 09:30 AM
If even a total innocent like Crying_Vegeta got banned, I don't see what chance Mike has. D:

Bittersweet
October 23rd, 2012, 09:34 AM
If even a total innocent like Crying_Vegeta got banned, I don't see what chance Mike has. D:

Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Crying_Vegeta R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn.

Char
October 23rd, 2012, 09:37 AM
Although Mike can be obssesed at times, I like him and don't think he should be banned, its not like he actively trolls people.

Neir
October 23rd, 2012, 09:41 AM
Banned from the rp and fanfic forums? :p

Anyway, re: cruor
I basically buried the hatchet with mike (at least on my end) after the facebook thing and took him off ignore.

Re: permaban too hasty
He's had all the smaller bans already, I think. 6 strikes and you're out?

deviatesfish
October 23rd, 2012, 09:48 AM
The way you say it, it's as if the rules had already been laid out, but now people are crying about them being too harsh for a single person's sake when they didn't exactly complain about the rules before, Neir. :v

More special treatment ahoy? Well, if that is the case, anyone can act like the way Mike did and get away with that as long as he did, right?

Bittersweet
October 23rd, 2012, 10:01 AM
Obviously if there was a penal usergroup, Mike wouldn't be the only potential member. Fairness should apply.

Mike1984
October 23rd, 2012, 10:20 AM
The problem isn't making mistakes, the problem is that ultimately your behavior - the core behavior - isn't changing. If you have a problem with the mods, you come to the admins - you don't make up an angry blogpost over it; it's our job to discipline them. We're not on here all the time, so you might have to wait a bit, but nothing extreme.

Sorry, I simply do not accept this. Sure, it's your job to deal with problems like that, but the rest of the forum has a right to know too.


Justified to you isn't justified to all. Even then, you needed to word it way less aggressively, which is one of the issues with you - you seem to not be able to question a decision without coming out as hostile and aggressive, to the point where it sounds like rather than saying "I don't like this" it sounds more like "the mods are idiots." If you want to have that personal opinion, fine - nothing's stopping you. But, just like if you happen to be religiously or racially prejudiced, that's something you keep to yourself.

In other words, you can't take criticism. Good to know....


In short, you should've come to us rather than posting the angry blog. And really, for what he did, while it may be annoying to a select few, having two totally separate threads for that sort of thing is redundant, and it certainly did not give you any sort of reason to rip into him like he's a horrible moderator - the very blog post was titled "abuse of power" which this is anything but. It's an attempt to streamline the forum.

Sorry, this is just rubbish. I do not accept that moderator mistakes should be kept hidden so you can sweep them under the rug and ignore them.


Yours are no better. A decision that you don't like is met with anger and hostility from you, and frankly, we're tired of that. You didn't want to have the banner contest because there "wouldn't be enough Sakura" for example, and even when I accommodated you so that you wouldn't have to see "tons of Saber and Rin," you still weren't happy because you didn't view others as making enough banners with Sakura in it. In the end, you manned up, made some of your own, and partially thanks to that, she's got about the fifth most banners of any single character, so she's hardly going to be under-represented.

I will admit that, but the difference is that you are not being threatened with a permaban because of it. I am.


There is nothing wrong with disliking the decisions. The problem is that when you do, you turn very aggressive and hostile, talking about how horrible the place and its staff are. Frankly, we're tired of it, and the other three admins have had to put up with it for a lot longer than the rest of the staff. We've tried to tell you this needs to stop before and it has not, and while you'll at least apologize if you feel you make a mistake now, you can only say "sorry" so many times after the fact before it gets to the point where you feel like that's all you need to get you in the clear, as opposed to holding your tongue, or complaining and inquiring in private.

And, again, this is the fundamental issue. You cannot handle criticism. You know you make mistakes, but when someone points them out, you get shirty about it.


We know that. People make mistakes. Everyone loses their cool once in awhile. The problem is with you, whenever it does happen, it becomes a big fuss out of it. I'll put up an even more recent example: When I did the colored name things (which, in hindsight, I will agree was probably not the best of ideas, but not exactly something as horrible as you made it out to be), you immediately were saying things like I only hand it out to my friends and my "clique." That was not only patently false, it was completely wrong. Saying sorry afterward is kind of minimal because it seems like anytime any admin or mod does something you don't like, you have nothing but venom and nasty things to say.

Because you were handing it out to people on #notes. It certainly seemed that way to me. And, I did not go completely nuts about it, I just argued that it was unfair. If I'd complained to you, you'd have done nothing and just ignored me.


Constructive criticism requires a cool, level head. If you're angry when you're criticizing, it's just going to come off exactly how it does right now - like you're preaching, like your opinions matter more than others, and like everything should revolve around you. The thread merge inconveniences you and a few others, so it's obviously a bad decision - even if, realistically, merging the two threads is more logical, rational, and realistic, because the only other "fair" option, would be to split it off for every single character, every single pairing, every single situation, and that's just unworkable because it'd be ten thousand different threads. It's not fair (remember your arguments about fairness and equality for all characters?) to have one character have their own separate topic just because they're popular, and having them character-separate, while much more easily searchable, is not workable as I said, so the only fair choice is to merge them. There's thread search tools for a reason, if you want to pick out individual characters.

Look, my biggest issue with that was not the decision itself, it was the lack of any communication about it. Hell, it didn't even seem like he'd talked to the other mods (they were pretty shocked that it happened), let alone the rest of the forum. OK, there are arguments for merging it, but there are also arguments against, and he should have discussed it. Particularly since, as a result of my blog post, several people came up with what are, IMO, better solutions that wouldn't have caused hassle.

And, it's not about picking out individual characters, my issue with it is that people might have saved a particular idea as a bookmark, and that would be lost with the merger. And, with the thread that large, it would be almost impossible to find again.


It's not the one little thing, it's the pattern, Mike. Anytime we do something you don't like, words like that come out. You show no ability to even try to stop that sort of thing, you show no attempts to come to us when you have problems with the mods, and saying "sorry" or "it was a little strong" matters a whole lot less when you don't even remember the previous thing that got you angry and learn from it.

Yes, because I do not accept that the authorities have the right to stifle dissent as you are now doing.


Essentially, that is what we want, but we don't see you trying to do it. Being "less angry" really isn't the problem - the problem is that you can't get your dissatisfaction across without such anger, and then think that by apologizing afterward it smooths things over, or that when you do post it, since you feel personally that it's justified, that it's perfectly okay without caring a damn about what other people will think or say. Punching a man on accident once and saying sorry might be fine, but if you do it every two or three months, how many punches is the man going to take before you learn not to punch him - or before he punches back?

What do you expect when you ban me totally unjustly without even so much as a discussion? Or when you basically dismiss my arguments with "tough shit"?

When you have discussed things with me reasonably, I have acted reasonably in return. The issue is when you start throwing around threats, or acting and then just expecting me to civilly discuss it after you've made the decision. If you want a civil discussion, then that requires there to actually be something to discuss. If you have already banned me, moved the thread or whatever, then nothing can be done, which makes having a civil discussion very difficult.


We get that you're not perfect, but you seem to think that just because some wording is acceptable to you, that that's all it needs to be. It doesn't. You have to think about how other people will react to what you say, before you say them - not after, and you can only apologize so many times before it sounds just as rote as "God Bless America" or "God Save the Queen."

Yeah, and you seem to think the same. As far as you're concerned, only your opinion matters, and mine is totally irrelevant.


I've given more recent ones, so don't hide behind the "that was then, this is now" excuse. That whole "nazi" flare-up was maybe three months ago if that.

Yes, it was, but I have improved since then. I didn't shout at IRUn and call him an Nazi or Fascist, did I?


It isn't just stories, it's other things. Again, if anyone has any sort of different opinion of Sakura than yours, you feel the need to step in.

Gee, how awful, I actually discuss things on a discussion forum....


If someone wants to write a story where she's not treated how you feel she should be treated, you can't resist coming in and disparaging them.

I give my opinion. I thought I was entitled to do that....


You may feel it's wrong. Fine! Nothing wrong with that. But then don't read the story, and don't tear into the author for it. Not everyone is going to write the sort of stories you would like. Do you realize you've created a culture where some people are literally afraid to write about her precisely because they feel you will not react well to it? Or that some people avoid mentioning her at all because of the same reasons? In a way, you're doing more harm for Sakura's reputation than you seem to realize!

Yes, I understand that, but I have not exploded at anyone recently for a story they've written.


I happen to like Rin, but I don't care if someone makes a story where in the very first sentence she's brutally tortured, raped, and killed, or if someone makes her out to be a complete, stuck-up bitch, or whatever - I simply wouldn't read it (although in practice, I probably would see if there's at least a reason why they chose that interpretation, but that's writer's mindset for you) but if I didn't like it, I'd simply not comment on it, or if I did, I'd make it constructive at least, without having to resort to calling the author names, telling them they're "wrong," and so on. You, on the other hand, will almost certainly at least begin to read any story with Sakura in it, but you'll savagely tear the author a new one if she is portrayed in some way that you would not agree with.

See, if someone has done that (certainly the mischaracterisation thing), then they should be put right, not just ignored and left to get it wrong over and over again.


You almost always tend to take things worse in private than in public. We figured you would see a private message about this as some kind of threat, and an attempt to do it "behind closed doors" - so that's why we did this in public, so that it's no massive, secret conspiracy to be rid of you, and so that people know why we feel the way we feel.

That's not true. I do shout more privately, but that's only because I can get away with it more, and I am therefore expressing how I really feel. My issue with the use of private messages only comes when Altima treats a friendly MSN conversation as if it were an official warning.


As I said before, yours was no better. You asked a few times in that thread, and when you didn't immediately get a reply, off came the gloves and we had a blogpost. Instead of coming to us, or even waiting a little while, you did that all within the span of a few hours at most. The bit of "communication" goes both ways; and is further complicated by how you would react to such things.

Yeah, sure, but you are not the ones being threatened with a ban....


And yet I clearly remember our conversation the last time. Something along the lines of "If you got problems with the mods, come find me, my MSN is on my profile." You clearly failed to do so here. You tried to talk with them both in the thread and in VM; when they didn't reply, your next step should have been to try to seek me or another admin out. My personal feelings for you aside, if you come to me with a concern or a complaint, I will absolutely look into it. You are a member of this community too, and I would do the same for any member here who's in good standing, whether they're a "troublemaker" or not (even if you think I won't). Whether I'll agree is another matter entirely, but if you don't take that initiative, then we don't have many other choices when we see an angry blog come out of left field, since you'll probably only want to talk to two out of the four of us - certainly not Altima anymore, and I think you'd rather avoid me like the plague. This is also part of why we decided to make this public from the start, rather than talk to you about it privately first - because while you keep saying "they don't talk to me," you don't talk to us when there's a problem either.

I tried to talk to IRUn, who is the correct person to talk to about it. Further, I messaged both Altima and Elf on the matter, and asked them to deal with it. I didn't ask you because I neither like nor trust you, and I would much rather talk to them.

However, getting you to deal with it does not mean that my concerns should be kept private. That only encourages a cover-up. Sorry, but that is how I feel about it. I will admit that I didn't give IRUn enough time to respond, and I would not have done the same in the future. I don't recall making that particular mistake before (I've been reasonably patient with you in the past, it took me several days of being ignored after my first warning to get to the point of posting a blog, and I mainly did that to clear the air), and I don't intend to make it again.

However, a lot of this is down to trust. If I trusted you to deal with it reasonably and fairly, then I'd be a lot less inclined to make it public. However, past experience has destroyed the trust I used to have in the other mods (honestly, I never really trusted you), and as a result I'm much less inclined to assume you will deal with it in a sensible manner.


I told you this had to go both ways. You can't have us communicating with you, if you won't communicate with us, because for communication, both people need to speak AND listen. I'll speak and listen to you, but if you won't speak or listen to me, communicating with you on an issue is pointless.

Yes, communication goes both ways, but that does not mean that I have to be the one to initiate it. And, as I pointed out, I messaged both Altima and Elf on the matter, so it is quite simply not true that I did not talk to them.


In some ways, yes, but again, apologizing "after the fact" only goes so far - you need to show a serious improvement in curbing the behavior BEFORE it happens, not after the fact.

Honestly, I don't recall "expressing my honest opinion in a calm manner" as ever being raised as a "problem" before. You've had issues with a lot of things, but you've never complained before about me making blog posts putting across my side of the story, and honestly I think doing that solves a lot more problems than it creates.


You don't take the opinions of how "the other side" will see your points into consideration at all, essentially

And nor do you....


did you really think such a strongly-worded blogpost would not gain a reaction from the mods?

Well, I was hoping it would, hence why I made the damn post....


It's a crude example, but how many times did you have to be told to lift the lid on the loo when you take a whizz, before you did it? If you're like most males, it went through a period of being told it repeatedly, then eventually you realized at one point you should've done it (and cleaned your mess up), then it got to the point where you mostly did it but would forget once in a great while, and then eventually it became second nature. This is what we need to get you in the habit of doing - when your anger gets the best of you, you need to remember other people are going to see and read what you say - especially the accused.

Yes, and I do do that. I am a lot less bad than I used to be, even if I am not perfect. My blog post was reasonably fair, honestly. Only the title was a little harsh, and what he did did seem like an abuse of power to me at the time. I was just expressing my honest opinion.


Strong words never go well with accusation; if anything, they're more likely to get a hostile response (which, again, is part of the reason we made this a public discourse and not a private one - you say you take private warnings better, but in our experience, you take private warnings worse, especially since you flat out would rather have nothing to do with two of the admins and most of the mods).

Yes. I wish you'd take your own advice rather than trying to start a civil discussion by throwing about a set of demands with an extremely serious threat attached....


It's not like prison, where you're given a hard sentence and that's it. While I won't say the cooldown times, I will say they're proportional - i.e; the worse you did, the longer it is - and none of them are really super-unreasonable. Even then, when an offense is committed under the cooldown period, we do still debate if it's worth ratcheting up the tempban time, nor is even the cooldown time "set" - there's been times where we've let someone off the hook early. Some people even impose their own cooldown times (Flame asked me to ban him for a month after his incident; I refused, and so he administered a self-imposed one).

I'm well aware of that.


It might seem worrying, but the simple fact is, if you don't try to break the rules, you have nothing to really be worried about. For you, you're mostly fine and we only have issues when you get too heated.

Well, that's exactly the point. I don't try to break the rules. I just get angry. Being put in a situation where a single explosion can have consequences like this is extremely stressful which, in turn, only makes me more likely to explode.


The problem is, while they're maybe somewhat better now, how many times are we going to have to deal with you getting angry over something every 2-3 months and shooting yourself in the foot? There's only so many times we can deal with it before eventually people get tired of dealing with it, and it's really starting to hit that point.

I'm not perfect, and I'm never going to be. I can reduce explosions, but it's difficult to cut them out entirely, and not realistic for you to expect such.


Again, three months ago you were calling us nazis.

Yes, three months ago.


Your latest one, you began with "abuse of power" right in the damn title. And later on in the post, you did get more aggressive:

I got a little more aggressive, but I was not being particularly insulting. It sure as hell does not deserve this.


I will, again, note that you gave him at most an hour or two to reply, and that you failed to come to an admin with that. He's certainly not on the board at all times, and just because you feel the issue is pressing, doesn't mean it actually is. He has to check over the whole forum, remember, and from what he said, he would've replied to you if you'd have given him more time. Instead, he got a blogpost, which puts it pretty accusationally.

Well, he was actually on the board at that particular time, though, and he was even posting in the thread in question. So, it is simply not true that he did not see it.


We're not going to just drop everything to reply to you. He probably should've said "I'll get back to you on that" at least, but you still should've came to an admin if you felt he was snubbing you.

See, this is the problem. I simply do not see it this way. If he is unwilling to respond, then I am fully entitled to air my concerns publically. I do not buy all this "keep it private so we can cover it up and avoid any hassle" crap.


You have improved in some ways, but not in others, as you freely admitted yourself. Just because you trust the mods less, or the admins less, it gives you no right whatsoever to be more disrespectful to them, simply because you don't like them. We're not saying kiss our asses here, but frankly, you wouldn't give the time of day to someone you disliked. I would - that's the difference.

Respect is something you earn, not something you get by right. If you make bad decisions, I am fully entitled to call you out on that.


Even if I don't like someone, I'll at least hear them out, see what they have to say. You seem to be incapable of this - once your opinion of them is set, it's set, and there's very little it seems they can do to change that.

That's not at all true. I am willing to give people a chance to explain theirselves and rectify the fault.

And, no, you don't do that. You have repeatedly banned me without so much as an attempt to talk to me first.


Even if IRUN decided to stop being a mod, you wouldn't like him any more than you do now, you'd probably just put him on ignore when he annoyed you and be done with it. Let's be honest.

That's not true. Hell, IRUn is still on my friends list. I didn't like his decision, but I don't hate him as a result.


Everyone has people they can't stand in this world. For me, it's the Religious Right. For you, it's anyone with authority or power. However, just because I don't like someone, I'm not going to treat them like they're scum because of that, while you have no problem with tearing anyone a new one if they do something you don't like. That's the difference - and it's a big one. It's one we can't have anymore.

I don't treat all authority figures like


Really, that's the problem. We were treating everyone else like everyone else, and Mike like Mike. We were holding him to a separate set of rules, essentially, making a mockery of our own rules and words.

We wouldn't take what Mike says from other members if they said so as hostilely as he comes across (perhaps it's not his intention, but it's what happens), so we're simply putting him to the same sort of standard we'd put other posters. Thus why if you read the post we're basically saying "You have to at least be reasonable with how you say things and make efforts to change too." This means not automatically interjecting Sakura into a fic if the author doesn't mention her, not tearing them apart if his interpretation differs, and trying to actively think about how he words things when he does have complaints.

So, basically, what you're saying is that you're not willing to actually treat people as people rather than mindless machines who just obey rules without question....


He doesn't need to speak like a "diplomat," and we're not telling him to kiss our asses or anything like that, but I shouldn't be accused of having a "clique" who are the only people I would ever give out colored names to (a fairly dumb decision in hindsight, I will freely admit, but still not something I should've been accused of - besides, who'd want to be my friend anyway? :p) or that IRUN doesn't have "the guts to talk to him" simply because he didn't reply immediately.

See, the problem is that you cannot take criticism. Even if it was unfounded ultimately, given what I saw happening that was an entirely reasonable cricitism to make.


So essentially, this post is as much about no longer double-standarding things as it is about us letting him know what we'd like to see changed, because the status quo is unworkable. We already had people call for Altima to step down because they thought he was "protecting" Mike almost a year ago, and it's clear that the way he says things is literally discouraging people from discussing Sakura, lest they draw his ire. We can't have that anymore - that's bad for the community as a whole, so we're hoping he sees this and our words not as an ultimatum (so far, so good), but as a sign that really, he needs to change how he says things if he wants to stay here, because as it is, he's essentially keeping people from doing anything with Sakura for one, and then he's also villainizing all of us anytime we do something he doesn't like, and we don't deserve to be crucified like that.

Look, I have made mistakes, but so have you. This has not been handled at all well, and nor have most of my other interactions with the mods. Perhaps I am too harsh to you at times, but then the same applies in reverse. You are way too harsh on me, and do not even give me the chance to defend myself before making your decisions. But, as usual, it is me who is entirely at fault, because the authorities are never at fault.


Also, we actually don't want to ban the guy (honest to whatever deity you may or may not believe in on that), but if it comes down to him causing more harm than good to the community as a whole - then what other choice do we have if he can't show he's at least trying to take our repeated requests to heart? Yes, he's less angry to other members, and that's good, but shifting it to us isn't solving the problem - it merely moves it, like sweeping dust under the rugs or robbing Peter to pay Paul.

I am trying. But, at the same time, it is damn difficult when you repeatedly act in a way which makes me distrust and disrespect you. I would be less angry at you if you didn't pull stunts like this on me, and if you were actually willing to talk to me about things before they happened, not afterwards.

Seriously, if you look at when I've got angry at you (particularly recently), it's been when you've treated me like crap. For example, handing me a ban without even talking to me. If you treat me like that, then what the hell give you the right to demand respect in return? Respect is a two-way thing. You don't seem to have it for me, and yet you demand that I show it to you.


And furthermore, he still has some issues whenever Sakura comes up (or in some cases, because she doesn't come up) that really need to be addressed. We've let that status quo go on too long, and it's starting to get to the point where it was bad for the board. There was a group at another messageboard who were actually targeting him, and he is one of the reasons we do have a bad reputation among some other people.

I talk about Sakura, what the hell is the problem with that?


So if it comes down to the community's overall viability, or him being here, the community has to take importance. We don't want him to leave, but if he can't make an effort to change that (and it by no means has to be perfect, flawless change - but we'd like to at least know he's trying) then what other choices do we have?

I am trying. You just aren't willing to recognise that.


Ah, see? Here we go. "The mods fucked up again." Not "They made a choice I don't like," but "The mods fucked up again."

This is exactly the sort of thing we're trying to bring to your attention. This sort of language comes off as very hostile, aggressive, and overall unwelcome.

We would have no problem with the former. We have plenty of them with the latter. This is one of the things we're trying to ask you think about and change. Again, you don't have to make it super-respectful, kiss our asses, anything like that - but you do have to consciously think about how people will react to a statement like "the mods fucked up again." The former implies we made a choice you don't like; the latter implies we're a bunch of idiots who wouldn't know how to run a board if the instructions were typed out in front of us.

And this is the problem that I have with you. You can't accept the concept that other people see you as making mistakes, and will call you out on that. You call me out on my mistakes, even when I don't agree with you that they are mistakes, why should I not do the same in return? It is not "the mods made a decision I don't like", that implies you are not at fault, which is quite simply not true, at least in my opinion.

The problem is that you make posts like this, that are every bit as offensive as my posts, and then when I reply to them in the same manner, you take it as an insult.


Nothing. It's in "how you said it" once again. And the fact that if the author says "It's not what I want to do," you will keep pushing for it regardless, or lamblast them for refusing.

When? Point out an example of me doing that.


We get that you like Sakura, but not everyone is going to hold her in such high esteem or automatically include her in a story they do. You do need to learn to accept that. It's fine to ask an author why they didn't include her, but it should by no means have to be a requirement that she be involved in a story unless it's obviously outside of a time where she could be around (i.e; a 100% OC Story, or one preceding her birth or following her death). This is something you do have to work on, since you have turned off many, many people from discussing her or writing about her, because if they do say she will be in it, but it doesn't hold up to what you like, you tend to grill them about it. You may not mean to, but again, due to your word choice, it's exactly what it comes off as.

Yes, I understand that, and I am trying to reduce that action. However, that does not mean I cannot or should not ask about her involvement, and point out why she should be there.

Again, that's not the problem. The problem is, sometimes, people simply don't want to add Sakura, and you take that very, very poorly.


I'm not privy to the full details on this, but the right thing to do, if you were interested, was to say "I'm claiming them now and will have the profile up soon because I have to write it" or something to that effect.

Yeah, you don't know what is going on there....


You gave him maybe an hour or two.

Yeah, I will admit that. That's still an hour or two more than you gave me, though. And, don't claim you couldn't have talked to me about it, because I was online talking to both Elf and Altima Sunday night, and they both knew damn well what was going on. And, yet, both of them acted as if nothing was wrong. Hell, Altima even outright misled me on the whole topic.


And again, you still failed to come to the admins.

No, I didn't. I messaged Elf and Altima. And, honestly, you do not have the right to silence criticism like you seem to want to.

The problem is, you jump in so often you make people wary about the very idea of writing her, or writing for her. Again, the ones who do, you will be looking at it and criticizing it if it does not meet with your ideal interpretation.


The problem isn't the isolated incidents, it's the pattern - namely, that anytime the staff does something that you don't like, you make it out like we're either a bunch of goose-stepping leaders, or that we don't know how to tie our own shoelaces because they make a decision you disagree with.

That is called me "expressing my opinion".


The pattern is simple: Mod/Admin makes a decision that Mike doesn't like, Mike makes an angry blogpost or forum post that tends to call them not very nice things. Simply put, while there is effort to try to turn down the anger to the members (and we thank you for that by the way), shifting it to the mods and admins is unacceptable. You have to tone it down for everyone, Mike. For that to happen, you have to want it to happen, and on that front, you admit freely you don't trust or like us very well. Unfortunately, this doesn't give you the "right" to treat us any less than any other member just because of our positions. Or are you saying that if I stepped down as admin, you'd magically think better of me? I doubt that, so let's not mince words here.

I don't treat you as "less than any other member". If I did, I wouldn't have been friends with both Altima and Elf.

However, your decisions affect me directly, and therefore I have to question them far more. Further, you do not act fairly towards me, IMO, and you do not communicate reasonably with me. Further, Altima has repeatedly lied to me, tricked me and broken promises he made to me. So, what sort of response do you expect.

You complain about me not forseeing the consequences of my actions, but you seem unwilling to take the consequences of yours. If you ban someone without so much as a discussion, then they will be angry at you. It is quite simply not fair for you to expect that not to be the case. You expect to be able to act with absolute impunity just because you have a luminescent name, and that is not at all reasonable.


We want you to treat everyone equally. That means not going after people if they don't include Sakura, not trying to cram your interpretation of her down someone's throat if it differs

I do treat everyone equally.

However, if a mod makes a decision, it affects me directly, so of course I'm going to react more strongly to that. It's only natural. If you stop banning and threatening me, then I will stop complaining about it....

Honestly, though, I think it's pretty damn rich of you to complain about a lack of respect etc. and then basically to try to threaten me into giving it. If you wanted respect, then you should try actually talking to me, not making a bunch of demands with a threat of a permaban if I don't comply.


and if you wouldn't be calling other forum members fascists, we shouldn't be called that either. (Note this is not giving you permission to do so.)

Actually, I did do that, in the whole "IRUn" thing, when talking to someone in the thread. So, it's not just you.


Again, this isn't for the single incident, it's for the repeated pattern. Was this a lot softer than your previous blog? Yes, but it still was pretty unfair to IRUN, and you did still essentially call him out by saying he didn't have the "guts" to talk about it immediately.

Yes, some of it was unfair, I will admit that, but it does not come close to deserving this.


And, again, you didn't come to an admin as you should have - something I'd thought we made clear (and agreed upon) the last time he did something you didn't like.

I don't recall you either making this clear or me agreeing on it, and honestly I have a perfect right to raise any concerns I might have publically.


People are capable of change, and I think the change we are asking for isn't unreasonable change. We're not expecting you to be a perfect little angel, who never gets angry - but we want to see you're at least making an effort to reel yourself in and bite your tongue sometimes, and we expect that if you do leave an opinion, that it not be something that's going to start another argument or fight. I make it clear that on a personal level I may not think very highly of you, but you don't see me calling you things, do you? No, because that's insulting to you. So in kind, I'd appreciate it if the staff doesn't get called fascists, and that if you have a problem to the mods, you come seek out the admins rather than soapboxing about your issues with them.

Look, I accept that calling you "fascists" is unfair, but I do not accept that expressing my opinion publically is unfair. You do not have the right to stiffle dissent just because you don't like what I have to say.


Again, shifting your anger from the users to the mods isn't any more acceptable than it was keeping it to the users. We're people too. If you wouldn't say it to my face, you shouldn't say it to a post, or a blog.

I would gladly say to IRUn what I said in that blog post to his face, at least at the time.


I know you don't care for me, I'm fine with that (honestly); I care surprisingly little about how much people like me to be quite frankly honest and I never desired to be seen as one of the popular kids in school. But if you have a problem on the forums, then you probably need to talk to me (or at least another admin), rather than do things your own way. Your own way is not working for this community, and in fact, some of your behaviors actively harm it.

See, if I talk to you, you just ignore me and nothing happens. Making it public at least means that people know there is an issue, and you can't sweep it under the carpet.


Since we are the ones who want this community to grow, this means it's our responsibility to do all we can to make it do so - and that means trying everything we can to make it a place where people can discuss things freely.

So, telling me to not discuss my opinions freely achieves that how, exactly?


That includes Sakura, and it includes that we should be treated at least humanely, and not have to be called gutless or fascists. You don't have to kiss our asses, and we've always said that all along, but you do need to at least not look at us like we're scum of the Earth because you don't like how we feel this place is best run.

But you do seem to want "ass-kissing". This is not about me treating you like "scum of the Earth", I generally treat most of you perfectly fairly and reasonably. The only time I complain at you is when you do something I dislike, and the same would apply to anyone.


"Stab me in the back." Again, language. Someone makes a decision against you, and now they're Benedict Arnold.

Well, Altima has. Not only with this itself, but the way that he's lied to me, conned me and made promises he obviously had absolutely no intention of keeping solely to try to shut me up. Hell, only a few days ago he was telling me it was probably nothing to worry about. He must surely have known what was coming.


And for what it's worth, the mods and the admins agreed on this in whole. As for the decision of who would write it, that's simple - Elf felt I would be too verbose (and she's right, look at how fucking long this reply is), RB wouldn't have really given it the necessary terseness, and Altima, well, he's the one who posted it but if he wrote it, you wouldn't exactly have taken it well, given that you had your falling-out with him. None of us wanted to do it, but one of us had to do it, and ultimately, she herself felt she was the best one for it. So she did, and I feel so bad about having put her through it that I really am thinking about sending her a few things as an apology, little as it probably means. She's definitely hurt over writing it. I can't say I blame her because nobody wants to do that, especially if they consider that person a friend.

Yeah, I understand that about Elf, although, honestly, none of you seem to care about how much it hurts me....


Okay, so you want Mike to change. But you know, it's very difficult for a person to change their habits and attitude by themselves.

Mike needs... I don't know, a counselor of some sort? Someone to talk about something he wants to respond to before he makes actually makes a post. A second opinion, really. Of course, nobody could force Mike to actually listen (and, in fact, that sort of relationship would require Mike to contact the other person first), and it would mean that he wouldn't be able to make a quick response if the other person wasn't online, but...

Well, even I sometimes talk about what I'm going to post. Sometimes I get people to read my posts too, if I'm feeling particularly worked up, which helps me avoid making the worst of the worst of posts. Maybe doing something like that would help Mike.

Honestly, if the main issue is my attitude to the mods, then I need to have a reasonable and fair discussion with them to clear the air. Unfortunately, they've basically made that impossible by prejudicing it and threatening me, which only makes me dislike them more.

They seem to just expect respect when they show me none in return. Respect simply does not work that way, whether or not you're in authority.


I mean, yeah, you could just leave it at him being at his final warning, but the overall feeling I get is that everybody expects him to cross the line again at some point if he's just left alone.

Honestly, I expect me to cross the line at some point, not least because I don't have a fucking clue where the line even is and do not trust the mods to define it in a remotely sensible manner.


It's pretty apparent, apart from Mike's own posts of defense, everyone seems to be siding with the mods and admins, agreeing with them. I guess that what I can draw from this is that Mike is in the wrong. This isn't because he's a jerk, but because he's just being himself and isn't really aware of his own lack of self-restraint. I can understand why they had made this public instead of sending it as a private message. From what I've gathered, he probably would've acted like 'a massive secret conspiracy was against him and wanted him gone'.

No, I'm well aware of my lack of self-restraint, although I think I am actually improving in that respect.


Indeed, Mike isn't perfect, but so isn't anyone else, and it seems that he frequently forgets this.

No, I know I'm not, but knowing it doesn't magically change it.


I agree with Mereo that what Mike needs is a counselor. Not a perma-ban, because I doubt that would make things any better for anyone, and who knows?

Yes, honestly, I need to actually have a civil discussion about it and try to resolve things. Unfortunately, rather than trying to start one, the mods decided to threaten me instead....

Honestly, I really don't get what they were thinking here. They have someone whose main issues are exploding out of anger and (in their eyes, at least) a lack of respect for authority, but who is also friends with several of the mods (including the one who made the post). So, instead of setting up some sort of civil discussion to clear the air and come to a resolution, they decide that it would be a good idea to post their grievences publically (after complaining vigourously at me doing the same thing) and attach to it a threat of a perma-ban. And, then, they claim they just wanted a "civil discussion".

I want a civil discussion too, but it's hard to have that when I'm being threatened. No-one responds well to threats, let alone someone who is known to dislike authority and who has anger issues.


He might even create a secondary account just to come back...but anyway, a counselor.

Might?


The aggressiveness he's had, a lack of self-restraint, I have no idea where these resulted from nor do I really care, but by being himself he's chased off a fair share of users and unintentionally worsened the image of 'Sakura'. Personally, I've a Sakura fan myself, but seriously...even I don't take things too far and accept that everyone has their own opinion.[/quoter]

I do accept that, yes, and I am trying to cut back on it.

[quote]So yeah. A perma-ban, or even a temp-ban wouldn't solve anything. It'll only make things worse than better, and probably more and more arguments will result...somehow.

Yeah, if they think banning me will solve everything, then they are absolutely deluded....


]This is what I believe is the problem. Because you're 'yourself', you're disturbing a lot of people, and you don't seem to show any want to change into a better person. You may think that you're a good person, and you think everyone else is wrong and you're right (without you even noticing it, your own characteristic trait), and you think everyone else are the jerks while you're the innocent one (who believes that by opposing the oppressive admins/mods, has brought unto himself their wrath), but it's all in your head. No offense, though, I just felt inclined to point out such things straightforward.

Honestly, I think I am a "good person", I'm just rather abrasive. And, yes, I do always think I'm right.

As for the mods, honestly the way they're focussing on my attitude to them is my biggest issue here. Yes, there are problems there, but that is something that needs to be dealt with by a fair discussion, not a one-sided list of demands. I don't want to upset people, but their communication is honestly terrible. True, mine is too, I will admit that, but then I'm the one suffering as a result.


Personally, the best solution - as disturbing as I know it might sound for you... - is probably to get a counselor, or at least a friend who would listen to everything you have to say and then reply back honestly without sugarcoating anything. From there, you could improve to being a guy who's more socially acceptable on this forum. Kicking you out won't do any good, will it?

Yeah, well, I did have such a friend, unfortunately he happened to also be a mod, and was seemingly unable to avoid using the results of said discussions to condemn me....


And Mike, why are you calling the admins fascist? o_0

Well, they've hardly treated me with any respect or courtesy here, and they certainly are acting pretty damn authoritarian....


Maybe a total ban is too hasty. I saw something earlier about restricted posting privilages, blogs only?

I dunno how that would help, really. I'd basically have to express everything through blogs, or just not post at all.


Even if that isnt feasible, doesn't this forum have usergroups? I know a lot of places have special subforums where they can restrict people to, rather than outright banning. I understand it is a successful feature. It's never too late to change the policy of a still growing and adapting forum. Maybe this sort of thing can be investigated?
It would be very easy. I see there is already a locked subforum that would be perfect for this sort of thing.

Yeah, but I dunno how that would resolve the issue. Either it would not affect me, or it would essentially be the same as a ban.


Re: permaban too hasty
He's had all the smaller bans already, I think. 6 strikes and you're out?

No I haven't. I've had a three-day ban about a yar ago, followed by a warning 6 months or so ago and a one-day ban a bit over a month ago. I'm pretty sure that, in terms of their ban track, I'm not on it at all at the moment.


The way you say it, it's as if the rules had already been laid out, but now people are crying about them being too harsh for a single person's sake when they didn't exactly complain about the rules before, Neir. :v

More special treatment ahoy? Well, if that is the case, anyone can act like the way Mike did and get away with that as long as he did, right?

The difference is that people who have been banned before were banned for being assholes and deliberately trolling. I'm being threatened with a ban because I don't speak in an Altima-approved manner, get angry occasionally and don't just blindly respect authority.

Enhance
October 23rd, 2012, 10:23 AM
Aiming for the World Record textwall I see?

---

Just by the way, I had an annoying friend once. Annoying friend. Really, really selfish annoying friend. I tried to tell him he's annoying while everyone just told ME how annoying he is to hang out with. All he answered was "I'm not annoying" and "I'm normal". Which is basically what I see you doing, Mike.

He was cured through a simple incident where everyone but me just started avoiding him, and I refused to help him make up with those guys as he was.
But he was younger. Much younger.

Mike1984
October 23rd, 2012, 10:34 AM
No, I understand that I'm annoying.

Honestly, if their issue was "Mike gets angry and upsets people in the fanfic forum", I could understand that. However, I am undoubtedly improving in that respect. Not perfect, perhaps, but improving.

The real issue here seems to simply be that they don't like me criticising them, and that is why I am so upset and angry about this. Because, to me, criticising them is entirely reasonable, and part of having the job. OK, I accept that I do upset people, and I am sorry for that, but the root cause of this is poor communication between us and an (apparently) mutual lack of respect. That is something that, honestly, needed to be discussed, so we could work out a solution. I don't want to upset people, particularly those who I see as friends but, at the same time, they have to accept that their decisions have consequences, and stop expecting people to be quite OK with that even when it affects them.

This is something that should have been resolved through a friendly discussion, not them making threats. All that has done has poisoned the atomosphere and made me distrust them even further.

Lycodrake
October 23rd, 2012, 10:38 AM
Just curious...does you calling them fascists, Nazis, and the like really help?
At all?
Ever?

Mike1984
October 23rd, 2012, 10:45 AM
Just curious...does you calling them fascists, Nazis, and the like really help?
At all?
Ever?

No, it doesn't, I won't deny that.

However, that is not the problem. I did not call IRUn a fascist, all I did was claim he abused his power, which was an honest belief at the time, if a bit strong in retrospect. The issue here is that they cannot accept me making my problems public at all, and that is not something I am at all comfortable with. I am capable of doing it to a certain extent, but only under extreme duress, and even then it doesn't always work. Further, the alternative is bringing up issues with a bunch of people whose judgement I do not trust at all, and just accepting their decision even when I think it is wrong, without criticism. That is not something I think I can do, at least when our relationship has broken down to this extent.

Apple
October 23rd, 2012, 10:49 AM
Uh, Mike, not to interrupt you or anything but you should divide your posts to different people with borders or something. Like

Apple, ____

==========

Leo, ___

==========

Darples, ____

and so on.

Not everyone has text immunity! I'm a worthless plebian who never studied university Physics, have mercy on me ;__;

Enhance
October 23rd, 2012, 10:51 AM
Wait what, there is some physics involved there? I'm simply allergic to those walls, my index finger starts spinning mousewheel like crazy.

Apple
October 23rd, 2012, 10:55 AM
I assumed years of staring at impossibly textbooks, essays and poring over long equations must have made him medically immune to WOTs. We commonfolk are not as gifted!

Bittersweet
October 23rd, 2012, 10:56 AM
I assumed years of staring at impossibly textbooks, essays and poring over long equations must have made him medically immune to WOTs. We commonfolk are not as gifted!

Impossibly textbooks...

Mike1984
October 23rd, 2012, 10:57 AM
Uh, Mike, not to interrupt you or anything but you should divide your posts to different people with borders or something. Like

Apple, ____

==========

Leo, ___

==========

Darples, ____

and so on.

Not everyone has text immunity! I'm a worthless plebian who never studied university Physics, have mercy on me ;__;

Well, yeah, my walls of text are somewhat hard to read at times.

Honestly, my real issue here is the fact that they're no longer willing to tolerate dissent. I've had a lot of issues with these mods, but the one thing I did genuinely respect is that they generally wanted to be treated as equals, not as superiors. OK, so if I shout insults at them, I get punished for it, but I don't get punished just because they are admins.

However, now they no longer seem willing to accept that. They expect to be treated as above criticism and above complaint, at least publically. I know that is a pretty common thing in forums, but it is a major reason why I have nothing but contempt for the vast majority of moderation teams. For all the issues I have had here, that is the one thing I did respect about the mods.

OK, so they make mistakes and have serious issues with comunication, but they acted as just another member of the forum, and did not expect to avoid criticism for that. They might be flawed, but they were at least tryingto do the right thing, and were willing to face criticism when they made errors (or perceived errors). The fact that they've now expressed their unwillingness to take criticism unless it makes out that they are absolutely not at fault even when I believe they are has destroyed what remaining respect I did have.

I would like to have had a proper discussion about this, but they've prejudiced the result of such a discussion now to the point that I'm not sure it's possible.

- - - Updated - - -


I assumed years of staring at impossibly textbooks, essays and poring over long equations must have made him medically immune to WOTs. We commonfolk are not as gifted!

No, I'm just very verbose....

Enhance
October 23rd, 2012, 10:57 AM
I assumed years of staring at impossibly textbooks, essays and poring over long equations must have made him medically immune to WOTs. We commonfolk are not as gifted!
Sadly, the magic only works if you're a Chosen One with unique compatibility with that immunity.
Didn't work for me :/

Plus, you can get everything in a nutshell with 2-3 sentences. I just catch them from other people afterwards.

Santo
October 23rd, 2012, 10:58 AM
Wait what, there is some physics involved there? I'm simply allergic to those walls, my index finger starts spinning mousewheel like crazy.

Thirteen total turns is the biggest as of now.

Bittersweet
October 23rd, 2012, 10:59 AM
Sadly, the magic only works if you're a Chosen One with unique compatibility with that immunity.

Origin: Words?

Mcjon01
October 23rd, 2012, 10:59 AM
I'm seriously considering getting a prescription for Modafinil just to give myself the laser-like focus I need to get through Mike-Posts. Haha, that's a lie, it's because I keep getting in trouble for falling asleep during the daytime, and the impulse is so strong that I can't fight it no matter how hard I try.

But I bet it'll help with the Mike-Posts regardless.

Apple
October 23rd, 2012, 11:01 AM
Impossibly textbooks...

They are so long and hopelessly complex that they have attained another plane of existence altogether. It's like reaching the root, except gracing their pages with your eyes burns out your spirit as opposed to your existence!

They are impossibly textbooks because they remotely even resemble textbooks anymore.

SeiKeo
October 23rd, 2012, 11:03 AM
I'm seriously considering getting a prescription for Modafinil just to give myself the laser-like focus I need to get through Mike-Posts. Haha, that's a lie, it's because I keep getting in trouble for falling asleep during the daytime, and the impulse is so strong that I can't fight it no matter how hard I try.

But I bet it'll help with the Mike-Posts regardless.

I don't actually think you need a prescription for that, or at least, substances that decay into modafinil.

Bittersweet
October 23rd, 2012, 11:05 AM
They are so long and hopelessly complex that they have attained another plane of existence altogether. It's like reaching the root, except gracing their pages with your eyes burns out your spirit as opposed to your existence!

They are impossibly textbooks because they remotely even resemble textbooks anymore.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-gJr7iU6kI

Mcjon01
October 23rd, 2012, 11:07 AM
^^The substance that stopped being produced last September? It's hard to get ahold of at this point, to say the least. There's bulk powders in stock, but I don't really want to deal with that, especially since my scale and pill capping stuff is back in America.

Besides, Japanese health insurance is nice, if I can get a legit prescription it's the cheapest option.

SeiKeo
October 23rd, 2012, 11:08 AM
The one that stopped being produced last September? It's hard to get ahold of at this point, to say the least. There's bulk powders in stock, but I don't really want to deal with that, especially since my scale and pill capping stuff is back in America.

Besides, Japanese health insurance is nice, if I can get a legit prescription it's the cheapest option.

I think it was... Adrafinil?

Apple
October 23rd, 2012, 11:09 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-gJr7iU6kI
If they replaced the dragon with a Lovecraftian monster comprised of jargon, sleepless nights and formulae built into each other the similarity might stand a little truer.

Mcjon01
October 23rd, 2012, 11:09 AM
Yeah. French company that made pretty much all of it discontinued it. Something to do with a reevaluation by the French version of the FDA, I think, not clear on the details.

Lancelot
October 23rd, 2012, 11:34 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-gJr7iU6kI

Wow I am getting old, I remember watching this a long time ago...
Anyways, world record for wall text, I even lazy to see who won, but one of the 2 just won it on this thread.

Neir
October 23rd, 2012, 11:40 AM
Kids, I know deflecting is preferable to confrontation, but stay on topic. Take the discussion to another thread if you must.

Mike1984
October 23rd, 2012, 11:40 AM
Could people please stop spamming the thread with crap? This is fucking serious....

Apple
October 23rd, 2012, 11:47 AM
Psh, you youngsters are too high-strung. You guys need to lighten up a little.

Mike, I want to hear more than just 'they are being pretty authoritative'. If they don't know how they are authoritative won't be able to see possible ways of working things out with you.

Bittersweet
October 23rd, 2012, 11:48 AM
Sorry, Mike. I was just trying to lighten the mood a little so your day wasn't completely bad. :(

Aiden
October 23rd, 2012, 11:48 AM
Sorry, Mike. I was just trying to lighten the mood a little so your day wasn't completely bad. :(

This is not the thread to do it in, one would think.

Bittersweet
October 23rd, 2012, 11:49 AM
This is not the thread to do it in, one would think.

Well I didn't start it.

Mike1984
October 23rd, 2012, 11:51 AM
Mike, I want to hear more than just 'they are being pretty authoritative'. If they don't know how they are authoritative won't be able to see possible ways of working things out with you.

The entirety of my previous three posts covers that....

Lancelot
October 23rd, 2012, 11:53 AM
Well then it's simple Mike, you just got to change your behavior like the last thousand times you said you would, I think they gave you already a way too much chances to change, but in the end you just go back to doing what you used to do.

Apple
October 23rd, 2012, 11:55 AM
Oh, so that's what that WOT was. Could you condense it a little, dude? >_O


Well I didn't start it.

I'm deeply sorry Bitter >:

Mike1984
October 23rd, 2012, 11:58 AM
Well then it's simple Mike, you just got to change your behavior like the last thousand times you said you would, I think they gave you already a way too much chances to change, but in the end you just go back to doing what you used to do.

No, it's not that. I have changed, a lot, but my opinion of authority has not changed and isn't going to change. They are just now making a big deal of it, and acting as if it's something that couldn't be dealt with by actually talking with me rather than threatening me. They could have at least tried that, particularly given the promises that Altima in particular previously made to me, and the fact that he was making this whole thing out to not be a big deal even when he knew exactly what was going to be said.

Further, I think it is exceptionally hypocritical of them to expect me not to give my honest opinion of their actions when they are only-too-quick to give their opinion of mine, and in public too. Some of the stuff DP has accused me of is just plain not true. He claims that all he wants is for me to treat everyone equally, but that is all that I want. But, yet, at the same time, he expects me to give mods and admins special treatment, by not publically criticising their actions when I would happily do the same with others. It's just outright hypocritical.

Enhance
October 23rd, 2012, 12:01 PM
Mike, you are a great example showing the reason most forums/services in their ToS include the point to "be allowed to refuse in all service without noting the reason for it"

Mike1984
October 23rd, 2012, 12:03 PM
Mike, you are a great example showing the reason most forums/services in their ToS include the point to "be allowed to refuse in all service without noting the reason for it"

Yes, because they don't actually want to accept the fact that they're being unreasonable, or justify their decisions.

Proboards being a damn good example of that....

Apple
October 23rd, 2012, 12:04 PM
I don't even know what your complaints are, Mike. One of them I remember from one of your blog posts a ways back was the coloured names somebody gave to people who participated in his contest (was it Darples? I forget).

I don't understand how you took it to be favouritism, it seemed like pretty much anyone who had an irc client and was online at the right time with the right knowledge could get one. I mean, I know you're really smart and all but is there something I'm missing here or were you just oversensitive? e_e

Kyte
October 23rd, 2012, 12:04 PM
See, the thing is that your rate of improvement is so slow we'd need five more years before you could pass off as a normal productive member of forum society.
And that's not counting the relapses.

And you're really, really, really fucking bad at wording your honest opinion. They have a problem with how you word it, not with you having opinions. You just, as usual, try to evade responsibility over your own words and actions by claiming they're trying to repress you when they're telling you to stop calling things what they are not. Like fascist.

Enhance
October 23rd, 2012, 12:05 PM
Yes, because they don't actually want to accept the fact that they're being unreasonable, or justify their decisions.

Proboards being a damn good example of that....

No, it's because one can easily make an annoyance out of oneself without actually breaking any real rules. Justification of refusal in that case would be a hassle not worth the bother.

After which one can go ahead and accuse the services of being "unreasonable", "hypocrites", "fascists", refusing in service someone who didn't really fall under any rule breach.

Of course, it can be exploited. But most services include it for a reason.

Lancelot
October 23rd, 2012, 12:07 PM
Hm, imo this forum is not a dictatorship where you go the street to complain about the people that are in power in hope that other people follow the example to go fight together. Also, this is what I see everytime you go and make a blog entry criticizing the mods or the adms, just take it to privite like you should do with any other member, if you have issues with them you don't need to make it public and if others have the same problem, I am sure they would to send p.ms instead of making blog entries to make the problem public. You don't need act like an oppressed rebel to be heard around here.

Mike1984
October 23rd, 2012, 12:10 PM
I don't even know what your complaints are, Mike. One of them I remember from one of your blog posts a ways back was the coloured names somebody gave to people who participated in his contest (was it Darples? I forget).

I don't understand how you took it to be favouritism, it seemed like pretty much anyone who had an irc client and was online at the right time with the right knowledge could get one. I mean, I know you're really smart and all but is there something I'm missing here or were you just oversensitive? e_e

It was favouritism towards #notes. And, honestly, yeah, I was rather sensitive about that, due to past circumstances.


See, the thing is that your rate of improvement is so slow we'd need five more years before you could pass off as a normal productive member of forum society.
And that's not counting the relapses.

I'm perfectly productive, even if I do cause the occasional disruption.


And you're really, really, really fucking bad at wording your honest opinion. They have a problem with how you word it, not with you having opinions.

Yes, I am, but that's not something that's just going to go away. And, honestly, I don't think the admins are much better in that respect, so it's damn hypocritical of them to throw the book at me for it.

I do make mistakes, I will accept that, but there have been mistakes made in both directions. The difference is that I'm the one who gets screwed as a result, not them.


You just, as usual, try to evade responsibility over your own words and actions by claiming they're trying to repress you when they're telling you to stop calling things what they are not. Like fascist.

No, they're telling me not to call them things they decide they are not. Which is repressing my opinion, because I'm only allowed to criticise them if they agree with the criticism....

- - - Updated - - -


Hm, imo this forum is not a dictatorship where you go the street to complain about the people that are in power in hope that other people follow the example to go fight together.

Well, actually, it kind-of is, by definition. Admittedly, trying to get people to fight the admins is of somewhat limited point, although I guess if everyone leaves and founds a different forum that would get rid of the issue....


Also, this is what I see everytime you go and make a blog entry criticizing the mods or the adms, just take it to privite like you should do with any other member, if you have issues with them you don't need to make it public and if others have the same problem, I am sure they would to send p.ms instead of making blog entrys to make the problem public. You don't need act like an oppressed rebel to be heard around here.

What, make it private so they can conviniently ignore my complaint and brush it under the carpet?

Santo
October 23rd, 2012, 12:15 PM
*sigh*

You know...this thread is a great example at demonstrating how lenient mods and admins in this forum are.

Anywhere else you would have been banned ages ago for a lot less than you've gotten away with here. No questions asked, no reasons given, no real need to justify themselves.

...Mike...I mean...you really have no grounds to stand on calling these guys Nazis of fascists. =.=

Mike1984
October 23rd, 2012, 12:18 PM
They're lenient relative to most forums, yes, but then I cannot stand the mods on most forums. There's still an account hidden somewhere on Animesuki called "Manju_is_a_bitch" from the time when I almost got perma-banned there (although, given that I got caught ban-evading, I'm pretty surprised I got away with it at all). Honestly, I still would treat her with contempt if she were to attempt to speak to me, after what she did.

Kyte
October 23rd, 2012, 12:18 PM
It was favouritism towards #notes. And, honestly, yeah, I was rather sensitive about that, due to past circumstances
The funny thing is that you yourself have been in there multiple times with nobody including yourself raising a fuss.


I'm perfectly productive, even if I do cause the occasional disruption.
More than occasional, according to the admins. And frankly, I've seen enough to agree with them. The net result is a loss for the forum. Ergo, no, you're not productive.


Yes, I am, but that's not something that's just going to go away.
It should, you don't have the right to act as you please.


And, honestly, I don't think the admins are much better in that respect, so it's damn hypocritical of them to throw the book at me for it.
And I think you're completely wrong because they, spineless as they are, at least bother to phrase their statements carefully.


I do make mistakes, I will accept that, but there have been mistakes made in both directions. The difference is that I'm the one who gets screwed as a result, not them.
Only you think there's been mistakes in your direction. And this is not one of those.


No, they're telling me not to call them things they decide they are not. Which is repressing my opinion, because I'm only allowed to criticise them if they agree with the criticism....
I've criticized them more than once, I'm yet to get repressed for it. :V

Lancelot
October 23rd, 2012, 12:21 PM
Well, actually, it kind-of is, by definition. Admittedly, trying to get people to fight the admins is of somewhat limited point, although I guess if everyone leaves and founds a different forum that would get rid of the issue....



What, make it private so they can conviniently ignore my complaint and brush it under the carpet?

Well then, why won't you go and make your own forum, I am sure you would get some people to follow you and you would make a great adm that will look foward all the rules are kept in check.

Also I don't think anyone would brush important things under the carpet, but perhaps your complainings aren't that correct...

Mike1984
October 23rd, 2012, 12:23 PM
The funny thing is that you yourself have been in there multiple times with nobody including yourself raising a fuss.

Yes, I know, but that's not the point. It still is a chat primarily used by a certain group of forum members.


More than occasional, according to the admins. And frankly, I've seen enough to agree with them. The net result is a loss for the forum. Ergo, no, you're not productive.

It seems pretty damn "occasional" to me....


It should, you don't have the right to act as you please.

Tact is not something you just suddenly get. I can try to be tactful, but I'm always going to struggle.


And I think you're completely wrong because they, spineless as they are, at least bother to phrase their statements carefully.

So what? The result is still just as insulting.


Only you think there's been mistakes in your direction. And this is not one of those.

What?

- - - Updated - - -


Also I don't think anyone would brush important things under the carpet, but perhaps your complainings aren't that correct...

Perhaps, but I do not agree with them, hence why I make my opinion known publically, so the members of the forum can make up their own minds.

deviatesfish
October 23rd, 2012, 12:25 PM
I criticize DP (almost) every time I see him on notes! :3

Bittersweet
October 23rd, 2012, 12:25 PM
Yes, I know, but that's not the point. It still is a chat primarily used by a certain group of forum members.

Mike, out of all the points you make, you might just want to drop this one. It makes you sound like you're complaining that a store had a sale on a day you weren't there. Not really a valid grievance. X(

Apple
October 23rd, 2012, 12:25 PM
Mike, it's difficult to make up my mind when most of it is frightened away from the frightful WOTs.

It's not a joke, I'm pretty sure most people come to this forum to have fun man, if you want people to understand your situation at least you should try to cut things a bit shorter.

Mike1984
October 23rd, 2012, 12:30 PM
Mike, out of all the points you make, you might just want to drop this one. It makes you sound like you're complaining that a store had a sale on a day you weren't there. Not really a valid grievance. X(

Yeah, it's not a big grievance at all. I'm just explaining what I felt. You don't have to agree with me, but I do not think it is fair to refuse me the right to possess and express an opinion just because it is one the mods do not like.


Mike, it's difficult to make up my mind when most of it is frightened away from the frightful WOTs.

It's not a joke, I'm pretty sure most people come to this forum to have fun man, if you want people to understand your situation at least you should try to cut things a bit shorter.

Well, perhaps, but that's got fuck all to do with this. This is long because I have to get my point across, and hope that they see reason.

Kyte
October 23rd, 2012, 12:46 PM
Yes, I know, but that's not the point. It still is a chat primarily used by a certain group of forum members.
You're right, it IS an awful place full of RP talk. I'm told that's because it's an RP channel. Why such a terrible thing exists I can't fathom.


Tact is not something you just suddenly get. I can try to be tactful, but I'm always going to struggle.
But it's been months and years.


So what? The result is still just as insulting.
Well that's the point. The net result is not the same. If you actually took the care to not throw the worst words you can think of, this wouldn't be happening in first place.

Mike1984
October 23rd, 2012, 12:55 PM
You're right, it IS an awful place full of RP talk. I'm told that's because it's an RP channel. Why such a terrible thing exists I can't fathom.

Exactly, it's an RP channel, not a BL channel....


But it's been months and years.

And I have improved.


Well that's the point. The net result is not the same. If you actually took the care to not throw the worst words you can think of, this wouldn't be happening in first place.

I don't "throw the worst words possible", I just express what I think. I called it "mod abuse of power" because I thought he was actually abusing his power....

Enhance
October 23rd, 2012, 01:08 PM
And I have improved.
I think one of the problems you probably have would be that you think that you're the one to judge that.

Kyte
October 23rd, 2012, 01:11 PM
Exactly, it's an RP channel, not a BL channel....
It's a BL RP channel. :V


I don't "throw the worst words possible", I just express what I think. I called it "mod abuse of power" because I thought he was actually abusing his power....
Well please try to curb your enthusiasm. :V

Ivan The Mouse
October 23rd, 2012, 01:15 PM
I don't "throw the worst words possible", I just express what I think. I called it "mod abuse of power" because I thought he was actually abusing his power....

Man, you talk like a leftist or anarchist demagogue every time you make a post about the mods. If you really want people to listen to you, you should at least try to chose milder words than calling them fascists or Nazis. (Man, I ain't no historian, but I could tell you that the Holocaust is just the sharp tip of the oppressive Nazi iceberg.) Much better if you made rational arguments defending your point of view because, whether you like it or not, logic and tactfulness appeal to the masses more than this sort of connotative and bombastic language. And by using the latter instead of the former, you are not being rational and are simply getting some emotional sympathy., much like a dictator.

I thought George Orwell talked about this already.

Mike1984
October 23rd, 2012, 01:19 PM
Man, you talk like a leftist or anarchist demagogue every time you make a post about the mods.

Well, yes....


If you really want people to listen to you, you should at least try to chose milder words than calling them fascists or Nazis. (Man, I ain't no historian, but I could tell you that the Holocaust is just the sharp tip of the oppressive Nazi iceberg.)

Yeah, sure, but I never called them "Fascists" or "Nazis" this time.


Much better if you made rational arguments defending your point of view because, whether you like it or not, logic and tactfulness appeal to the masses more than this sort of connotative and bombastic language.

Whilst this is somewhat beside the point, that statement is so horribly wrong it's unbelieveable. There's a reason politicians don't ever tell the truth....


And by using the latter instead of the former, you are not being rational and are simply getting some emotional sympathy., much like a dictator.

I thought George Orwell talked about this already.

My arguments are rational, though. Go read my blog post. I called it "abuse of power" because that was how it looked to me at the time.

- - - Updated - - -


I think one of the problems you probably have would be that you think that you're the one to judge that.

I'm the only person who truly knows what I'm thinking, and all the times where I have not reacted to things. I know I'm not the judge, but that doesn't make them any less wrong.

Apple
October 23rd, 2012, 01:20 PM
I thought #notes was the place you went on irc if you didn't want to get shooed off the lawn by the users of the old beast's lair on #beastslair, lol. It is an rp channel?

SeiKeo
October 23rd, 2012, 01:21 PM
I thought #notes was the place you went on irc if you didn't want to get shooed off the lawn by the users of the old beast's lair on #beastslair, lol. It is an rp channel?

Not really would be my opinion, but, what can you say.

(join and complain with zlol about NS :D)

Enhance
October 23rd, 2012, 01:21 PM
I'm the only person who truly knows what I'm thinking, and all the times where I have not reacted to things. I know I'm not the judge, but that doesn't make them any less wrong.
So what you're saying is that you're not the judge but you're right to judge and your judgment is the one and only true one?

Also, you seem to have put a badge on yourself saying "Achievement unlocked: Got better!" and stopped with it. It's just not enough.

Bittersweet
October 23rd, 2012, 01:23 PM
I've never RPed on it... o_o

Mike1984
October 23rd, 2012, 01:25 PM
So what you're saying is that you're not the judge but you're right to judge and your judgment is the one and only true one?

No, I'm saying that they're not judging me fairly because they only see the bad things and not the good things.


Also, you seem to have put a badge on yourself saying "Achievement unlocked: Got better!" and stopped with it. It's just not enough.

I have improved and I am trying to improve further. However, they are unwilling to give the chance to actually do this.

Honestly, if they truly believe I can achieve what they're asking (i.e. perfection), then they should have banned me already, because it clearly means that I'm exploding at people intentionally....

Kyte
October 23rd, 2012, 01:26 PM
I thought #notes was the place you went on irc if you didn't want to get shooed off the lawn by the users of the old beast's lair on #beastslair, lol. It is an rp channel?

It turns into an RP channel every evening when they start talking about onigokko and and they refuse to shut up. :V

- - - Updated - - -


No, I'm saying that they're not judging me fairly because they only see the bad things and not the good things.
And that's a problem. If your good things aren't visible, you aren't improving at all.

Also they ain't asking for perfection, you're just settling for ridiculously low standards.

RacingeR
October 23rd, 2012, 01:31 PM
It turns into an RP channel every evening when they start talking about onigokko and and they refuse to shut up. :V

Nobody complains when you start with your boring as fuck fanfic talk, so I don't think you got much room to cry either :V

Mike1984
October 23rd, 2012, 01:33 PM
And that's a problem. If your good things aren't visible, you aren't improving at all.

See, the thing is, that's simply not true, because the things they are asking me to do are by definition "not visible". If I don't explode at anyone, there is no way they can tell that I am doing that. They only ever see the times where I do explode.


Also they ain't asking for perfection, you're just settling for ridiculously low standards.

Yes, they are. If I make one more mistake, ever, I get banned.

deviatesfish
October 23rd, 2012, 01:34 PM
Omg, when they finally stop onigoku talk, they start talking about Pokimunz. :V

Ivan The Mouse
October 23rd, 2012, 01:37 PM
Well, yes....

Then why are you doing it?


Yeah, sure, but I never called them "Fascists" or "Nazis" this time.

Man, you could call them "unfair", "abusive" or "authoritarian", but that doesn't change a thing: You're still using words with negative connotations to fetch sympathy. You admitted to sounding like a demagogue and it shows.


Whilst this is somewhat beside the point, that statement is so horribly wrong it's unbelievable. There's a reason politicians don't ever tell the truth....

We're not talking about the real life masses here, but the sort of people in the internet: Ever went to 9GAG, clicked on a picture and looked at the comments below? I'll tell you, they're painful snarky, it isn't even funny. But you can't hate them, they have some rationalism, albeit shallow. And 9GAG just exploded in popularity last year. What does that tell us, then?


My arguments are rational, though. Go read my blog post. I called it "abuse of power" because that was how it looked to me at the time.

Read this sentence again. It is so obviously self-contradicting.

Apple
October 23rd, 2012, 01:37 PM
Not really would be my opinion, but, what can you say.

(join and complain with zlol about NS :D)

Zlol is singaporean...?

Dafuq how many we got already I think junky is one too iirc

Bittersweet
October 23rd, 2012, 01:39 PM
Omg, when they finally stop onigoku talk, they start talking about Pokimunz. :V
You guys are making #notes sound really crummy. :<

Mike1984
October 23rd, 2012, 01:42 PM
Then why are you doing it?

Because I am an anarchist, practically....


Man, you could call them "unfair", "abusive" or "authoritarian", but that doesn't change a thing: You're still using words with negative connotations to fetch sympathy. You admitted to sounding like a demagogue and it shows.

But, if that is how I feel they are acting, then how am I supposed to express my opinion without using words like that? I do think they were being unfair and anti-authoritarian, and no amount of changes of word choice will cover that up.


Read this sentence again. It is so obviously self-contradicting.

At the time, it appeared as if IRUn was abusing his power. It's as simple as that.

Mcjon01
October 23rd, 2012, 01:42 PM
You guys are making #notes sound really crummy. :<

It is. :|

But this topic is about Mike, not terrible chatrooms.

Apple
October 23rd, 2012, 01:42 PM
The only times I go on #notes I see Verg kidnapping people and getting jumped by Ilya.

Bittersweet
October 23rd, 2012, 01:44 PM
It is. :|

But this topic is about Mike, not terrible chatrooms.

Since when do you even know what chatrooms are? I've never seen you in notes. (Okay, I admit I've only been their a few times, but still.)

Apple
October 23rd, 2012, 01:46 PM
He is Mcjonacles, blessed by the gods of wit and humor. The boundaries of his wisdom are nigh unfathomable.

Bittersweet
October 23rd, 2012, 01:50 PM
I think he is in cahoots with CV. :P

Apple
October 23rd, 2012, 01:54 PM
All because of that poop quote, lol?

Bittersweet
October 23rd, 2012, 01:56 PM
I think they were friends before CV got banned.

Ivan The Mouse
October 23rd, 2012, 02:06 PM
Because I am an anarchist, practically....

So apparently, fascist dictators using demagoguery is bad and irrational but anarchists using the same method is good and rational, isn't it?


But, if that is how I feel they are acting, then how am I supposed to express my opinion without using words like that? I do think they were being unfair and anti-authoritarian, and no amount of changes of word choice will cover that up.

You simply have to describe the situation in a neutral way, then let the readers judge. As simple as that.


At the time, it appeared as if IRUn was abusing his power. It's as simple as that.

You said that it appeared to be. Appeared. That word is subjective when it comes to political behavior.

Mike1984
October 23rd, 2012, 02:07 PM
You simply have to describe the situation in a neutral way, then let the readers judge. As simple as that.

Sorry, that's just crap. They did not "describe the situation in a neutral way" here, and nor are they doing so when they hand out bans. Why the hell should I be forbidden from putting across my own opinion to counter that?


You said that it appeared to be. Appeared. That word is subjective when it comes to political behavior.

Yes, but my argument was still rational. I expressed an opinion and explained why I thought what he did was wrong.

Kotonoha
October 23rd, 2012, 02:10 PM
You guys are making #notes sound really crummy. :<
What's wrong with pokemon discussions :(

Santo
October 23rd, 2012, 02:14 PM
What's wrong with pokemon discussions :(

They are poisonous to the soul :V

Ivan The Mouse
October 23rd, 2012, 02:17 PM
Sorry, that's just crap. They did not "describe the situation in a neutral way" here, and nor are they doing so when they hand out bans. Why the hell should I be forbidden from putting across my own opinion to counter that?

So now you need to flame them, appeal to emotion, use bombastic language and accuse them of totalitarianism according to your opinion, while making yourself look like you deserve the ban, instead of using tact, diplomacy and rationalism in order to bolster your chances of getting people on your side?


Yes, but my argument was still rational. I expressed an opinion and explained why I thought what he did was wrong.

Read your post. Again. Again. Again. Then ask yourself, do you understand what "rational" means?

RR121
October 23rd, 2012, 02:17 PM
Omg, when they finally stop onigoku talk, they start talking about Pokimunz. :V

Hey, its better than when they're talking about relationships. Then its just sad.

Kyte
October 23rd, 2012, 02:19 PM
Yes, but my argument was still rational. I expressed an opinion and explained why I thought what he did was wrong.

I'm sure creationists think they're being very rational when they express their opinion regarding the origin of Earth and explain why they think what others believe is wrong.

Mike1984
October 23rd, 2012, 02:19 PM
So now you need to flame them, appeal to emotion, use bombastic language and accuse them of totalitarianism according to your opinion, while making yourself look like you deserve the ban, instead of using tact, diplomacy and rationalism in order to bolster your chances of getting people on your side?

No, but I have the right to express my opinion of their actions.


Read your post. Again. Again. Again. Then ask yourself, do you understand what "rational" means?

Rational means reasoned. It doesn't mean you aren't defending a belief.

Lycodrake
October 23rd, 2012, 02:19 PM
What's wrong with pokemon discussions :(
.

They are poisonous to the soul :V
...you sadden me by this, Santo. :/

Kotonoha
October 23rd, 2012, 02:19 PM
Hey, its better than when they're talking about relationships. Then its just sad.
Yeah it's almost as sad as when that Fshy guy brags about how he's an IRC expert.

What was his BL username again, I forget.

Mike1984
October 23rd, 2012, 02:20 PM
I'm sure creationists think they're being very rational when they express their opinion regarding the origin of Earth and explain why they think what others believe is wrong.

Perhaps, but they're not. What I said there was actually entirely rational, and several other people agreed with me on that. I was a bit harsh on IRUn, but my basic complaint was valid.

Neir
October 23rd, 2012, 02:21 PM
#notes was made to be a channel about the notes RP. People kept joining, and that rp is dead. They still come, and they happen to be from beast's lair. That does not make it a beast's lair channel, and it should have no bearing on your complaints about beast's lair. It's like complaining about a place across town that happens to have people you know in it.

- - - Updated - - -


Yeah it's almost as sad as when that Fshy guy brags about how he's an IRC expert.

What was his BL username again, I forget.

I loled.

Mike1984
October 23rd, 2012, 02:22 PM
#notes was made to be a channel about the notes RP. People kept joining, and that rp is dead. They still come, and they happen to be from beast's lair. That does not make it a beast's lair channel, and it should have no bearing on your complaints about beast's lair. It's like complaining about a place across town that happens to have people you know in it.

It does matter when DP starts giving out privileges to people on there....

Santo
October 23rd, 2012, 02:22 PM
...you sadden me by this, Santo. :/

Lyco: ;A;

Santo: :U Delicious delicious tears.

Bittersweet
October 23rd, 2012, 02:24 PM
I still want my purple name. :(

Santo
October 23rd, 2012, 02:25 PM
I still want my purple name. :(

You can't have it.

Because purple poisons the Soul. :V

Neir
October 23rd, 2012, 02:25 PM
It does matter when DP starts giving out privileges to people on there....

Not really, no. Think of it like running into your boss (assuming he doesn't hate you) in a coffee shop.

And even though I agree on the name thing, I has absolutely nothing to do with how you decide to comport yourself here.

Kotonoha
October 23rd, 2012, 02:25 PM
I want a purple name too.

Is this the lineup for purple names?

Mike1984
October 23rd, 2012, 02:28 PM
Not really, no. Think of it like running into your boss (assuming he doesn't hate you) in a coffee shop.

And even though I agree on the name thing, I has absolutely nothing to do with how you decide to comport yourself here.

DP talking on #notes is fine (it would be exceptionally hypocritical of me to complain about people talking to admins off-forum...), the problem I have was solely him giving out privileges based on it, and even then I didn't consider it that big a thing.

TypeWannabe
October 23rd, 2012, 02:31 PM
Hey. Hey, hey. Everybody not talking about Mike's "last warning", please take it to the 7th. I don't even know why this is still active. As the message is addressed to Mike, why should it be public, and why should all of us (including myself) be putting our own opinions into this?

Ivan The Mouse
October 23rd, 2012, 02:33 PM
No, but I have the right to express my opinion of their actions.

Then why are you here right now? Why does this topic exist, with you on the hot seat and the spot light? Why are people telling you that you are scaring new fanfic writers away, that you are rude to the mods, that you flame other members, that you don't change and generally that you are regarded as pariah to this forum, someone who should be banned? I could state my opinion about something without resorting to connotative language, anyone can do so. So, if you are simply expressing an opinion, then why are you accused of such things? Even I could attest to your modus operandi, Mike. Why does this topic exist, then?


Rational means reasoned. It doesn't mean you aren't defending a belief.

Defending a belief need not to be heated and laden of name-calling.

Tobias
October 23rd, 2012, 02:39 PM
Hey. Hey, hey. Everybody not talking about Mike's "last warning", please take it to the 7th. I don't even know why this is still active. As the message is addressed to Mike, why should it be public, and why should all of us (including myself) be putting our own opinions into this?

Its simple enough, there were several valid reasons to take this public, but the most obvious was the simple fact that it would have been made so anyway, had we sent it privately, shortly thereafter some rage at the machine style blog or thread would have been created thereafter anyway, likely filled with a text wall litany of complaints that would make the OP of this thread look like a footnote, so we saved time and preempted that step. Plus it was better that our greviances were posted in a single continuous statement as opposed to separated and parsed out as mike would have undoubtedly done.

RR121
October 23rd, 2012, 02:41 PM
Yeah it's almost as sad as when that Fshy guy brags about how he's an IRC expert.

What was his BL username again, I forget.

You know, for the life of me, I can't remember...

Mike1984
October 23rd, 2012, 02:42 PM
Its simple enough, there were several valid reasons to take this public, but the most obvious was the simple fact that it would have been made so anyway, had we sent it privately, shortly thereafter some rage at the machine style blog or thread would have been created thereafter anyway, likely filled with a text wall litany of complaints that would make the OP of this thread look like a footnote, so we saved time and preempted that step. Plus it was better that our greviances were posted in a single continuous statement as opposed to separated and parsed out as mike would have undoubtedly done.

Maybe that would have happened, maybe not. But, if you had made it private, it would at least have demonstrated that you were doing this to actually try to resolve the issue rather than to threaten me. By publicising it, you have ensured that there is no way to negotiate this or discuss this. It is just a set of demands which I have to obey or else, and if you do not stick to what you've said you're just inviting criticism.

You claim you want a "civil discussion", and yet you posted this in a form that makes that almost impossible to achieve.

lantzblades
October 23rd, 2012, 02:46 PM
yeah, i have to admit mike's right here, regardless of your intentions, this format shoots any resolution in the foot

Mike1984
October 23rd, 2012, 02:48 PM
See, what has upset me the most about all of this is the way Altima has lied to me throughout the process. He came on MSN a few days ago and said "we need to have a talk, it'll be serious", and then said "no, it's not threatening". Then, a day later, he said "forget it, we're still talking about what to say". Then, he just acted like nothing was happening whilst they were obviously planning to drop this bombshell on me.

OK, I can understand their reasoning for making it public, because it almost certainly would have come out eventually, but I still think it was extremely unfair of them to just post it straight away without talking to me first. Particularly given that one of the main drivers for this was me doing exactly that with IRUn. If it's so bad for me to make a blog post about IRUn without giving him time to respond, then why is it OK for them to post a final warning to me without giving me a chance to respond or discuss it?

Tobias
October 23rd, 2012, 02:48 PM
It was the right move to make. You say threat, I think the word "warning" fits better, and its one I truly hope you listen to.

Santo
October 23rd, 2012, 02:48 PM
Maybe that would have happened, maybe not.

Umm...if previous experience shows that the only thing that comes out of that is an angry blog or thread one goes from the "Maybe this will happen." to "According to the previously observed pattern this is almost certainly what will happen seeing as to it has happened pretty much every other time." >,>

And for the record. Usually you don't really negotiate. Most of the time you come across as "I am right everyone else is wrong so deal with it."

Me? I'm pleasantly surprised they openly admitted to giving you preferential treatment. I think better of them because of that.

Mike1984
October 23rd, 2012, 02:54 PM
It was the right move to make. You say threat, I think the word "warning" fits better, and its one I truly hope you listen to.

No, it's a threat. And, honestly, I will try not to get banned, but I do not trust your judgement at all, so I am not expecting much. Particularly given that you seem to expect me to be perfect.


Umm...if previous experience shows that the only thing that comes out of that is an angry blog or thread one goes from the "Maybe this will happen." to "According to the previously observed pattern this is almost certainly what will happen seeing as to it has happened pretty much every other time." >,>

Perhaps, but at least that way they would have tried to resolve the situation without resorting to public threats.

Honestly, all I really want from them is for them to talk to me about things like this as a person, not as Mike1984 the user. They all know me, they all have ways to communicate with me, why don't they actually at least try to make their concerns known to me? Despite what you might think, I am not an asshole, and I don't want to upset people. But, it's very hard to have any kind of discussion when you're being threatened.


And for the record. Usually you don't really negotiate. Most of the time you come across as "I am right everyone else is wrong so deal with it."

That is simply not true. I do "negotiate", it's just that the negotiation usually happens privately, not via a blog post. The blog post is the result when the negotiations are not working or, more commonly, in order to get the admins to actually bother even trying to negotiate in the first place.

Santo
October 23rd, 2012, 03:01 PM
Perhaps, but at least that way they would have tried to resolve the situation without resorting to public threats.

Honestly, all I really want from them is for them to talk to me about things like this as a person, not as Mike1984 the user. They all know me, they all have ways to communicate with me, why don't they actually at least try to make their concerns known to me? Despite what you might think, I am not an asshole, and I don't want to upset people. But, it's very hard to have any kind of discussion when you're being threatened.

No not "Perhaps" not "Maybe so" its "Almost certainly so." This was addressed in the OP, when they have tried that in the past you make a very long blog or thread breaking apart whatever was said in order to paint them in the absolute worst possible light.

Also. No comment on the fact that you got preferential treatment I see? I do wonder why.

Mike1984
October 23rd, 2012, 03:05 PM
No not "Perhaps" not "Maybe so" its "Almost certainly so." This was addressed in the OP, when they have tried that in the past you make a very long blog or thread breaking apart whatever was said in order to paint them in the absolute worst possible light.

No, that's not what happens. What happens is that I try to talk to them, they ignore me and so I make a blog post. The only exception was the last ban, and that happened because they did not even make the effort to talk to me beforehand.

And, honestly, so what if I do do that? I was under the distinct impression that the point of this whole thing was supposed to be to make me change my behaviour so I could remain on the forum, not so they can make themselves look good by showing that they're clamping down on me.


Also. No comment on the fact that you got preferential treatment I see? I do wonder why.

Because I'm ignoring it, that's why.

I honestly don't care what you think of their prior treatment of me, and nor do I care for your concept of "fair treatment", which means just sticking to the rules rigidly no matter whether or not they make sense (not that they've done that here anyway...).

Santo
October 23rd, 2012, 03:10 PM
Because I'm ignoring it, that's why.

I honestly don't care what you think of their prior treatment of me, and nor do I care for your concept of "fair treatment", which means just sticking to the rules rigidly no matter whether or not they make sense (not that they've done that here anyway...).

Indeed, if they had done that you would have been banned ages ago :V

As was stated by Darples, several people claim you as the main reason they no longer browse BL. A fair number of people in FFN forums cite you as the principal reason they are afraid to come to BL and post their Typemoon related ideas here. BL has gotten bad rep and you are normally cited by user name. That buddy, is destructive and bad for the community. Were you anywhere else, you would have been banned ages ago for a mere fraction of the stuff you've been allowed to pull here.

In all honesty? My main grievance with this is that you are a picture perfect example that having friends in high places pays off something fierce.

YeOfLittleFaith
October 23rd, 2012, 03:14 PM
Because I'm ignoring it, that's why.

I honestly don't care what you think of their prior treatment of me, and nor do I care for your concept of "fair treatment", which means just sticking to the rules rigidly no matter whether or not they make sense (not that they've done that here anyway...).

You've said something like this before, and I didn't comment then, but you are aware the way you're talking about rules makes it sound like they're a completely ludicrous thing?

Rules? Why should we have rules? PFFT, rules, such a ridiculous and utterly demential concept. Maybe we shouldn't have societies and communities, and shared guidelines as people at all! That can all just go screw itself!
Take that, morals.

Mike1984
October 23rd, 2012, 03:17 PM
You've said something like this before, and I didn't comment then, but you are aware the way you're talking about rules makes it sound like they're a completely ludicrous thing?

Yeah, hi there, I'm Mike, BL's resident anarchist (soon to be evicted)....


Rules? Why should we have rules? PFFT, rules, such a ridiculous and utterly demential concept. Maybe we shouldn't have societies and communities, and shared guidelines as people at all! That can all just go screw itself!
Take that, morals.

What the fuck does morality have to do with rules?

YeOfLittleFaith
October 23rd, 2012, 03:21 PM
Yeah, hi there, I'm Mike, BL's resident anarchist (soon to be evicted)....

Go on. That's not what I said at all, but feel free to give my argument reason.


What the fuck does morality have to do with rules?

Oh, you know, I was remembering that lovely talk you were having on some thread I think was... last week, this week? Relatively early, in which people were talking about the morals established by society, and personal morals, and how you said you didn't care about the morals of society at large at all, because you have your own.

Because they're obviously mutually exclusive, am I right?

Santo
October 23rd, 2012, 03:21 PM
Aaaand not even an acknowledgement that having friends in high places has given you preferential treatment.

Wellp, I'm out. Honesty hope this gets worked out.

Hen_Ichi
October 23rd, 2012, 03:22 PM
If Mike follows his ideals til the end, will he go to Avalon too?

YeOfLittleFaith
October 23rd, 2012, 03:24 PM
If Mike follows his ideals til the end, will he go to Avalon too?

>,<

I know I'm kind of against Mike here, but let's not go there. I'm still trying to be serious.

Mike1984
October 23rd, 2012, 03:28 PM
Go on. That's not what I said at all, but feel free to give my argument reason.

Well, my general viewpoint is one which doesn't acknowledge or accept rules as a generally good thing.


Oh, you know, I was remembering that lovely talk you were having on some thread I think was... last week, this week? Relatively early, in which people were talking about the morals established by society, and personal morals, and how you said you didn't care about the morals of society at large at all, because you have your own.

Because they're obviously mutually exclusive, am I right?

No, they're not mutually exclusive, but I only follow my own morals, not those of society.


Aaaand not even an acknowledgement that having friends in high places has given you preferential treatment.

If I was getting "preferential treatment", I wouldn't be being threatened with a permaban....

alfheimwanderer
October 23rd, 2012, 03:38 PM
What I don't understand is why we are still letting this be about Mike and Mike's issues. Certainly I support fair play, and treating all equally, but if Mike's presence is actively harming the community, no matter the claims to the contrary, he should simply be removed from it to prevent future harm. It may not be pleasant to make the decision to remove him, but as has been demonstrated, Mike has caused great harm to the community with his actions - and despite claims to the contrary, will not change.

It's not personal. It should not even be emotional - its simply triage. Let one die to save the rest, because in the end BL is a community is what matters - what should matter - more than the needs of one individual.

Remember, mercy without justice is neither.

Hyperstorm
October 23rd, 2012, 03:39 PM
If I was getting "preferential treatment", I wouldn't be being threatened with a permaban....

If you weren't getting preferential treatment, you would have already been permabanned a long time ago.

bahamut zero
October 23rd, 2012, 03:41 PM
Mike, I'm neither pro nor contra, but if I had this obvious straight-out wave of malice thrown at me I wouldn't really want to stay here, I would leave and I would probably like to got out with a bang.

That said, I would surely miss the drama you produce, I'm quite fond of it.

YeOfLittleFaith
October 23rd, 2012, 03:46 PM
Well, my general viewpoint is one which doesn't acknowledge or accept rules as a generally good thing.

Well... it's a viewpoint, so I can't really argue with it in a rational manner. It's just that it's not a very constructive one to advocate for this whole matter.


No, they're not mutually exclusive, but I only follow my own morals, not those of society.

I wouldn't call that entirely wise, but that's a completely different beast to talk about. I brought it up because it sounded relevant to me.

And by relevant I mean, the fact that you guide yourself by your own morals and don't consider those of people at large might be part of the reason why this has become such a big issue. Correct me if I'm wrong here, I'm simply trying to come up with reasonable conclusions.

Also, my personal pinch of salt on the matter, just to make it clear to you. I don't think you're a bad guy, but you are disagreeable due to a combination of several factors that have already been brought up before, I'm sure. And I think you know that, and you know that it annoys people, and that to some it translates as disrespect, or harassment even. Heck, I'll be honest, it's annoyed me before.

Maybe it's not significant in your compass, but it is for others. And for others, it's already built up into a huge pile-up of incidents that's culminated in this announcement. And maybe it's a good thing it did, because it's a chance of closing this matter down in a final manner. For better or for worse.

That's all I wanted to say. I just hope this gets resolved as quickly possible.

Mike1984
October 23rd, 2012, 03:52 PM
What I don't understand is why we are still letting this be about Mike and Mike's issues. Certainly I support fair play, and treating all equally, but if Mike's presence is actively harming the community, no matter the claims to the contrary, he should simply be removed from it to prevent future harm. It may not be pleasant to make the decision to remove him, but as has been demonstrated, Mike has caused great harm to the community with his actions - and despite claims to the contrary, will not change.

It's not personal. It should not even be emotional - its simply triage. Let one die to save the rest, because in the end BL is a community is what matters - what should matter - more than the needs of one individual.

Remember, mercy without justice is neither.

Ah, yes, the usual "fuck Mike, he doesn't matter" attitude....


And by relevant I mean, the fact that you guide yourself by your own morals and don't consider those of people at large might be part of the reason why this has become such a big issue. Correct me if I'm wrong here, I'm simply trying to come up with reasonable conclusions.

Following my own morals does not mean not considering other people. It just means I don't do what I'm told just because someone in authority tells me to do it.

YeOfLittleFaith
October 23rd, 2012, 03:54 PM
Edited my post for my final thoughts.

Neir
October 23rd, 2012, 03:57 PM
I'm just glad this is message was a statement and not up for debate. Discussion is purely for understanding.

Or so I've been told.

And really, sometime people need a 'shape up or ship out' ultimatum.

TypeWannabe
October 23rd, 2012, 04:00 PM
But...he was shaping up. Heck, I don't even go to the Fanfiction section much anymore, and from what I saw in GD he was being a better guy.

but again, why are we putting our own opinions into something not about us?

YeOfLittleFaith
October 23rd, 2012, 04:02 PM
But...he was shaping up. Heck, I don't even go to the Fanfiction section much anymore, and from what I saw in GD he was being a better guy.

but again, why are we putting our own opinions into something not about us?

When something's made public, there will be public opinion.

And because we are part of the community, and because it will affect us as individuals as as a whole, presumably. I assume that's part of the reasoning, at least.

Neir
October 23rd, 2012, 04:06 PM
Also, mike tends to rage even harder when something is private.

Mike1984
October 23rd, 2012, 04:12 PM
I'm just glad this is message was a statement and not up for debate. Discussion is purely for understanding.

Or so I've been told.

Yeah, because how dare they actually listen to me, and make some attempt to actually communicate with me or treat me like an actual human being. I mean, that would be absolutely awful, wouldn't it...?


Also, mike tends to rage even harder when something is private.

No, I just don't moderate myself in private, because I don't have to.

Neir
October 23rd, 2012, 04:17 PM
Yeah, because how dare they actually listen to me, and make some attempt to actually communicate with me or treat me like an actual human being. I mean, that would be absolutely awful, wouldn't it...?



No, I just don't moderate myself in private, because I don't have to.

So we're on the same page. :p

Mike1984
October 23rd, 2012, 04:18 PM
Yeah, I'm not in the mood for stupid jokes like that, to be quite frank....

Neir
October 23rd, 2012, 04:21 PM
Well, think about what you just said. It's not public, so you don't have to restrain yourself in hurling abuse at people. You don't think there's a problem there? Things you say in private do still affect people's view of you afterwords.

Mike1984
October 23rd, 2012, 04:34 PM
Well, think about what you just said. It's not public, so you don't have to restrain yourself in hurling abuse at people. You don't think there's a problem there? Things you say in private do still affect people's view of you afterwords.

Perhaps, but I am just telling them how I feel. If they don't like that, then they shouldn't treat me in this way.

Neir
October 23rd, 2012, 04:38 PM
So it's okay to treat people like shit if you're unhappy?

Mike1984
October 23rd, 2012, 04:42 PM
So it's okay to treat people like shit if you're unhappy?

No, I treat people in the same way they are treating me. If they treat me like shit, they get the same in return.

Plus, if I am angry, then I am going to express that somewhere. Doing it over MSN is better than doing it on the forum.

Neir
October 23rd, 2012, 04:47 PM
Yes. I'm just trying to reframe in the hopes that you'll see the problem. It doesn't seem to be working, so I'm done here.

Vlad_the_II
October 23rd, 2012, 04:56 PM
*Sigh*

I wanted to read the whole thread before I wrote this but gave up around page seven when I realized my opinion won’t change. Quite frankly seeing someone call a moderator unfair, fascist, or other colorful terms because they remove, edit, move or close any content item for any reason is to me, well a lot of things, but above all else pointless, for the simple reason that we all agreed to let them do so when we joined here.

Why you may ask?

Let me refresh the memory of everybody that’s been here to long.



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Sorry I have to be the one that points this out, but I find the moderators here to be the nicest ones I’ve seen in a long while, and seeing them put in a bad light makes me sad.

Neir
October 23rd, 2012, 04:58 PM
No, this has been mentioned many times. And also deemed irrelevant and fascist.

Mike1984
October 23rd, 2012, 05:00 PM
Yeah, the fact that we "agreed" to it does not make it any more right for them to actually do it. We agreed to the Proboards ToC, but I don't think anyone is particularly OK with the utterly shitty way they treated us.

I'm not disputing their legal right to ban me, I just do not feel they're treating me fairly, and I certainly do not think they are acting like the friends they claim to be.

Reynel
October 23rd, 2012, 05:03 PM
Reading the whole pages, I realize Mike is like an onion. People may think he is an insulting anarchist who goes in life, like he stated, by his own morals. But, as you keep taking off layers and layers, you notice that he is exactly the same, and then you start crying.
Just think about it, what would Kiritsugu do?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now, seriously speaking, I personally think Mike is a good guy and doesn't try to harm people, he just do it by the wrong way. In fact, Sakura was my favorite heroine until he spoiled her for me, but I don't think that THAT was his purpose.
Mike, why don't you start again with a fresh start? Maybe change your aviee, read other novels, roleplay Sakura-less.
Not that my opinion matter much since I'm relatively new here, but I think Mike could be better if he wanted to. He has a good rational mindset, just doesn't now how to express it. In fact, I think I will send him a friend request.

For mods and admins, there are more than 2 options to take from here. I don't think Mike should go away with it, but I am also against permabanning, where this community is about sharing opinions. Like Bittersweet stated, I think there is a sub forum control or something? Maybe ban him from the Fanfic threads?
Let me tell you, I find Mike is really cool when there is no Sakura involved.

Lianru
October 23rd, 2012, 05:05 PM
Let me tell you, I find Mike is really cool when there is no Sakura involved.
.

bahamut zero
October 23rd, 2012, 05:14 PM
Just think about it, what would Kiritsugu do?

6948

Mike1984
October 23rd, 2012, 05:15 PM
Reading the whole pages, I realize Mike is like an onion. People may think he is an insulting anarchist who goes in life, like he stated, by his own morals. But, as you keep taking off layers and layers, you notice that he is exactly the same, and then you start crying.
Just think about it, what would Kiritsugu do?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now, seriously speaking, I personally think Mike is a good guy and doesn't try to harm people, he just do it by the wrong way. In fact, Sakura was my favorite heroine until he spoiled her for me, but I don't think that THAT was his purpose.
Mike, why don't you start again with a fresh start? Maybe change your aviee, read other novels, roleplay Sakura-less.
Not that my opinion matter much since I'm relatively new here, but I think Mike could be better if he wanted to. He has a good rational mindset, just doesn't now how to express it. In fact, I think I will send him a friend request.

For mods and admins, there are more than 2 options to take from here. I don't think Mike should go away with it, but I am also against permabanning, where this community is about sharing opinions. Like Bittersweet stated, I think there is a sub forum control or something? Maybe ban him from the Fanfic threads?
Let me tell you, I find Mike is really cool when there is no Sakura involved.

Well, banning me from the fanfic stuff defeats a lot of the point of me actually being here, particularly if I cannot even read them.

I do screw up, yes, and I do perhaps need a "fresh start", but I don't see how that can work. Changing my avatar would not achieve that, and reading other VNs (well, Tsukihime aside, which I do intend to read at some point) isn't going to affect anything. Plus, my opinion of the admins will not change, and nor will their opinion of me.

I am capable of being "better", but honestly Sakura is not the biggest issue here. I have improved substantially in that respect. I am still Sakura-centric, yes, but I don't jump on people anything like as much as I used to. The real issue here is my anti-authoritarian nature, because they have made it clear they aren't going to tolerate that, and given the situation that's going to be very difficult to get past.

Honestly, if the mods were just a bunch of random faceless people who I didn't know or talk to, I could probably deal with this, but they're not. I simply can't treat them as ordinary users except when they decree otherwise, I treat everyone equally (regardless of what DP might claim), which means criticising them for their faults. I do shout at them when I'm angry, yes, but they are by no means the only people that is true for. They seem to expect to be placed above everyone else and beyond criticism whilst denying that they do, and I cannot cope with that.

Reynel
October 23rd, 2012, 05:25 PM
Honestly, if the mods were just a bunch of random faceless people who I didn't know or talk to, I could probably deal with this, but they're not. I simply can't treat them as ordinary users except when they decree otherwise, I treat everyone equally (regardless of what DP might claim), which means criticising them for their faults. I do shout at them when I'm angry, yes, but they are by no means the only people that is true for. They seem to expect to be placed above everyone else and beyond criticism whilst denying that they do, and I cannot cope with that.
Well, see it this way: you are not asking to be treated like the rest of the forumites, right? (Maybe because you have been for along time, maybe because you help a lot, IDK). It's really not fair. You said you didn't want preferences with the color names, but you want preference now. Isn't that facist? You are even asking to them to not see it like admin/moderators, but as individual persons. It's like a robber to ask the judge to see him as a person who needed to rob, and not as a robber. See my point? I do like your attitude and mindset, but of the several paths you may take, you take the ones that are not precisely the best. I think is better for you to change, not your mindset, but your ways of making it work.

lantzblades
October 23rd, 2012, 05:29 PM
Maybe ban him from the Fanfic threads?

no, just no. that creates complications for more then just mike.

Mike1984
October 23rd, 2012, 05:29 PM
Well, see it this way: you are not asking to be treated like the rest of the forumites, right? (Maybe because you have been for along time, maybe because you help a lot, IDK). It's really not fair. You said you didn't want preferences with the color names, but you want preference now. Isn't that facist? You are even asking to them to not see it like admin/moderators, but as individual persons. It's like a robber to ask the judge to see him as a person who needed to rob, and not as a robber. See my point? I do like your attitude and mindset, but of the several paths you may take, you take the ones that are not precisely the best. I think is better for you to change, not your mindset, but your ways of making it work.

You see, it is only not fair if you assume that I would not make the same argument about absolutely every other member of the forum. That is simply not true. I know they do have to ban people sometimes, but I wish they would treat everyone as people and not as users. Obviously, when it affects me specifically, I am more likely to speak up, but it is not something I feel applies only to me.

And, yes, I'm asking for them to see it like people and not like admins/moderators, because that is how I believe everyone should see things. If the law is wrong, then the Judge and (especially) the Jury have a moral obligation to disregard it and to do the right thing. Everyone should treat everyone else for who they are, not what they are.

I3uster
October 23rd, 2012, 05:47 PM
For mods and admins, there are more than 2 options to take from here. I don't think Mike should go away with it, but I am also against permabanning
Then abolish permabanning in general.

I wanted tighter rules because I want everybody to be treated fairly and to act like decent human beings (because seriously, at the height of the last forum drama period this place was just horrible), but if there's a majority wanting to go back on the second aspect let's please keep the first one this time, and just remove the permabanning in general.

Maybe not for Randy/CV-tier trolls but for every normal user.

Personally, I'd dislike if the admins give up their right to remove elements that actively destroy the chance of growth for the community, but fairness has to be maintained if people actually want this.

Froggie
October 23rd, 2012, 05:48 PM
Everyone should treat everyone else for who they are, not what they are.

My sides!

Mike1984
October 23rd, 2012, 05:53 PM
I wanted tighter rules because I want everybody to be treated fairly and to act like decent human beings (because seriously, at the height of the last forum drama period this place was just horrible), but if there's a majority wanting to go back on the second aspect let's please keep the first one this time, and just remove the permabanning in general.

Honestly, I want the same. I don't want to be treated unfairly, I would want any other user in my situation to be given the same treatment I would like for myself. And, I do try to act like a "decent human being", and mostly, I succeed. I just make mistakes now and again.


Maybe not for Randy/CV-tier trolls but for every normal user.

Personally, I'd dislike if the admins give up their right to remove elements that actively destroy the chance of growth for the community, but fairness has to be maintained if people actually want this.

Right, so I'm a "negative element", am I?

This thread is very illuminating in showing who the people who have gone after me are.

TypeWannabe
October 23rd, 2012, 05:54 PM
I'm sorry, but I will never stop disliking you if you are from Jersey. There are only a small handful of people I like that are from Jersey, and all of them are musicians. So there's some people I treat for being what they are (Jersey's)​ not for who they are.

EDIT: The "you" is a general statement, not specifying you​.

I3uster
October 23rd, 2012, 05:55 PM
No Mike. You are not a negative element. The admin team made a thread because of your positive contributions to the site.

Reynel
October 23rd, 2012, 05:59 PM
I3uster means that only permaban should be avoided (except for obvious trolls like Randy/CV), but there has to be a measure, am I right?

I3uster
October 23rd, 2012, 06:00 PM
No.
I am against the removal of permabans.

Mike1984
October 23rd, 2012, 06:01 PM
No Mike. You are not a negative element. The admin team made a thread because of your positive contributions to the site.

Then why do you seem to be supporting a course of action that will get me banned?


I3uster means that only permaban should be avoided (except for obvious trolls like Randy/CV), but there has to be a measure, am I right?

No, he seemed to be opposed to that idea.

Reynel
October 23rd, 2012, 06:03 PM
Then why do you seem to be supporting a course of action that will get me banned?

Maybe because problems > contributions?
I'm not old here, so I don't know how the balance go.

Seika
October 23rd, 2012, 06:04 PM
Have people's sarcasm detectors suddenly gone on the blink?

I3uster
October 23rd, 2012, 06:05 PM
The only person who would be at fault for your ban would be yourself, but the fact that you try to seek other factors to blame for this ("This thread is very illuminating in showing who the people who have gone after me are."), combined with your statements about subverting authority by defying them as hard as you can get away with in other threads says a lot about your ability for self-reflection.

Lycodrake
October 23rd, 2012, 06:05 PM
Have people's sarcasm detectors suddenly gone on the blink?
Mine is permanently broken on the internet.