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notdeadfish
April 9th, 2011, 02:23 AM
Servant Class

A "Servant Class" is a container prepared for materialising a Heroic Spirit that is summoned into the current era as a Servant.
There are seven Servant Classes: Sabre, Lancer, Archer, Rider, Caster, Assassin and Berserker. Since there cannot be repeats of any one class, the seven Servants participating in a Holy Grail War will be of different classes.
Heroic Spirits determine their classes on the basis of their characteristics, and then summoned as the Servant of the corresponding class. For instance, the only class appropriate for Arturia is Sabre, but Hercules, who was said in legends to be proficient with all weapons, can be summoned into all classes but Caster. The affinity between the Master and the Heroic Spirit will determine which class the Heroic Spirit will be summoned into. However, the Einzberns, as one of the "Three Founding Families" and well-informed of the rules of the Servant system, was able to preemptively interfere with the system and summon Hercules as Berserker.
Among all the classes, Sabre, Lancer and Archer are also called the "Three Knights". They are frequently Heroic Spirits from the Age of Gods when sorceries were common. Due to high magic resistance, modern magi are unable to inflict damage to them.
The Assassin class is special, as the only qualifying Heroic Spirits are the Hassan al-Sabbah's.

Sabre
Knight of the Sword. The compatible Heroic Spirit naturally needs to possess legends as a knight of sword, as well as the highest levels of attributes in all but MGI. Class Abilities include Magic Resistance and Riding. Also, compatible Heroic Spirits usually excel in delivering powerful burst attacks.

Lancer
Knight of the Lance. Its high qualifying conditions are second only to Sabre. Attributes are excellent overall, in addition, AGI must be high. Of course, Servants of this class are proficient in hit-and-run tactics that capitalise on range and speed. This class includes many Heroic Spirits who were knights.

Archer
Knight of the Bow. A class that excels in possessing powerful Noble Phantasms. The qualifying condition is not attributes, but the possession of powerful projectile weapons or special abilities related to projectile weapons. Highly effective as scouts. They have not only the Magic Resistance ability of the Knight Classes, but also the class ability of Independent Action.

Rider
Mounted Knight. Heroic Spirits who rode mounts (not limited to living creatures) qualify for this class. Although attributes tend to be lower compared to the Three Knight Classes, this is compensated by the abilities of the mount described in legend. Besides Magic Resistance, class abilities also include high Riding.

Caster
Magus. Qualifying conditions only include mastery of sorceries of the highest calibre. Due to this trait, the qualifying Heroic Spirits tend to have low combat abilities. In addition, since the majority of Servants have Magic Resistance, this class is thought to be the weakest of all.

Assassin
Assassin (duh). The only qualifying Heroic Spirits are the generations of Hassan al-Sabbah's, and one of them would be summoned. All of them do not have glorious legends as heroes, thus possess low attributes. Class ability is Presence Concealment, and the use of this ability during battle is the lifeline of Assassin.

Berserker
Mad Warrior. Heroes who have gone berserker during battle qualify for this class. Normally it is considered ideal if a Servant can wield power at the level of the original Heroic Spirit, but "Mad Enhancement" allows for the attribute enhancement of the Servant beyond the ability of the original at the cost of sanity. A class originally used to enhance weak Heroic Spirits.






Kojiro Sasaki

Class: Assassin
Master: Medea
Alignment: Neutral Evil
Sex: Male
Height: 176cm
Weight: 63kg
Weapon: Katana

STR: C
CON: E
AGI: A+
MGI: E
LCK: A
Noble Phantasm: ??

Legend
Kojiro Sasaki. A Japanese man without a real identity, and it may not be an overstatement to say that he has never existed. He was described as the rival of Nitoryu sword master Miyamoto Musashi, and a handsome swordsman who skillfully wielded the 3-shaku-long (approximately 1m) nodachi “Bizen Osahune Nagamitsu” which is also called “Monohoshi Zao”. His duel with Miyamoto Musashi at Funajima Island, such lines as “Kojiro has been defeated!”, and the finale of death by having his forehead crushed by an oar are all legendary. Although he was said to be the disciple of Chujoryu kodachi master Toda Seigen, there are numerous conflicting documentations and legends, which still shroud his true identity even now.
The “Kojiro Sasaki” summoned in Fate/Stay Night is not a Heroic Spirit. He is an existence closer to wraiths. He was a nameless martial artist given the name Kojiro Sasaki. What his real identity was, there is no way to know. He seemed to be related to the Ryudo Temple. He uses a long Japanese katana and discovered the ultimate technique “Tsubame Gaeshi”... and these are absolutely all he possesses. His pursuit of sword technique, sophistication, and finding joy in duelling with strong foes are all reminiscent of the legendary Kojiro Sasaki: cool and elegant.
Assassin’s differences with Kojiro are that, his katana is longer (approximately 1.5m), and the engraving on the katana is “Bitchu Aoe” (Blue River of Bitchu).


Tactics
Although a Servant of the Assassin class, he does not employ assassination techniques such as ambush, instead frequently choosing to fight face-to-face. During battle, Assassin counters the opponent’s attack with sword techniques and Eye of the Mind, or simply by dodging. If he detects an opening, he would decapitate the opponent with the 5-shaku katana with certainty. Also, Assassin can deliver slashes even while standing idly, without assuming any stances. His technique is extremely swift, and very difficult to read. Kojiro Sasaki’s ultimate weapon is the technique that has reached the pinnacle of training and approaching True Magic --- Tsubame Gaeshi. It is an attack that delivers 3 slashes simultaneously, enough to overwhelm even Arturia.


Class Abilities
Presence Concealment: D
Since he is not a true Servant Assassin, this is not a class ability. It is his intrinsic ability as a martial artist to “cut off his presence”. This is not a skill to hide, but a technique of the mind for the martial artist to merge with his surroundings. Because this is not a skill trained for assassination, it cannot match the Presence Concealment of Hassan. In reality, a Kojiro Sasaki who cuts off his presence is an opponent that is hard to detect even for a Servant. It is extremely difficult to perceive Kojiro during the first encounter. However, because his activity is restrained to within the range of the Ryudo Temple Gate, those who know the existence of Kojiro can detect him relatively easily. With this said, due to Kojiro’s personality, battles are usually commenced only after the parties have presented and introduced themselves. As a result, this ability is rarely used for its original purpose.


Personal Abilities
Eye of the Mind (False): A
Premonition (“Spidey-sense”) or sixth sense, very different from Emiya’s danger avoidance originated from “predictions augmented by experience”. It may be called a natural talent to sense danger. During the Grail War, in the battle with Arturia, Kojiro crossed blade with an invisible sword numerous times. He was able to use this ability to gauge even the length and width of the sword, and see through the fact that Arturia was unable to use her Noble Phantasm attack due to a lack of mana.

See through the weapon and style of his opponent after crossing blades only a few times, the perception of his eyes is the best among Servants.


Vitrification: B+
An ability commonly called “heart of clear water”. More precisely, it is a mental state acquired after reaching the pinnacle of arduous training. With this ability, Kojiro is able to maintain a cool and collected heart, regardless the situation. For example, even facing his very own death will not cause him to waver. During battle, mental interference such as charm and fear sorceries activated by the opponent is completely neutralised. For a “gate guardian”, this ability is certainly very useful.

Like the many trees that surround the Ryudo Temple, Kojiro watches the gate in silence with a heart of clear water, just like an unwavering guardian.


Knowledge of Respect and Harmony: B
A special ability that prevents the reduction of accuracy regardless how many times the same technique has been used on one foe. In other words, the ability to “render one’s attacks unreadable to the enemy”. Although Kojiro and Arturia crossed blades numerous times, due to this ability, Arturia still could not adapt to Kojiro’s technique despite having Rank A Instinct. Paired with Kojiro’s unique “head-shot” techniques, the effect is vastly increased.

No matter retreating and challenging him how many times, Arturia still cannot see through Kojiro’s techniques. She was always forced back to square one and fought as if it was the first encounter again.


Tsuabame Gaeshi
The ultimate sword technique that assaults the opponent from three directions “simultaneously”. Strictly speaking, this is neither a Noble Phantasm nor a magical phenomenon. The nameless martial artist who materialised as “Kojiro” sought nothing but the pinnacle of swordsmanship during his life. He trained himself in pursuit of swordsmanship, and doing nothing but swing his sword. After a long period of time, his technique finally reached another state. A flash from this world, followed by two absolutely simultaneous, over-lapping flashes that disregard the concept of time and space, producing a slash attack that arrives from three different directions. This is the “Multidimensional Refraction Phenomenon—Kischua Zelretch” that transcends speed, dexterity, feint and many other elements. Although with some limitations, a nameless martial artist who knows naught of sorcery or True Magic is able to tread into the realm of the “Second Magic”.
The range of this skill is approximately 3m. In order to deliver the first strike as a horizontal slash, Kojiro relinquished his high ground advantage over Arturia and moved to an equal level before unleashing this technique. You may discern how special a secret technique “Tsubame Gaeshi” is to Kojiro, who never assumes a stance, by observing how he lifts his sword and then swiftly launches the technique.


Q & A

Noble Phantasms
Q: If the original Kansho and Bakuya take the stage in the Holy Grail War, as the twin swords reaching the realm of Gods due to the sacrifice of human lives, will they possess powers as Noble Phantasms? Or, since they did not have wielders in the legend, thus cannot become Noble Phantasms?
A: Absolutely without a doubt that they will be true Noble Phantasms. They will be extremely strong anti-monster Noble Phantasms. Rider's ultimate form--Gorgon Lv100, or the extra-dimensional evil god summoned by Gilles, will all be cut down in a single strike. (HOLY SHIT)

Characters
Q: What's Leysritt's arm-wrestling rank in the world of Fate?
A: Leysritt's arm-wrestling... is about an even match with Rider using Monstrous Strength? Rank value is about B-.

Q: Shinji's mother is a "Carrier", what kind of pathogen is she carrying? Is she a "God's Holder"?
A: No, nothing special of that sort. According to Zouken, she is the daughter of "a random third-rate magus".
(Translator's note: "Carriers" hold remnants of mysteries from the Age of Gods as pathogens like bacteria and viruses. The Fraga McRemitz lineage of course is an exceptionally powerful example, Shinji's mother unfortunately is of the bottom of the barrel.)



To be continued (hopefully)...

Mike1984
April 9th, 2011, 02:37 AM
However, the Einzberns, as one of the "Three Founding Families" and well-informed of the rules of the Servant system, was able to preemptively interfere with the system and summon Hercules as Berserker.

Erm, doesn't this somewhat contradict what we're told in Fate/Zero regarding summoning Berserker (i.e. that it's deliberate)?

Tangerang
April 9th, 2011, 02:51 AM
I think it's referring to the way the summoned him months before the war actually started?

Hyarion
April 9th, 2011, 03:00 AM
No, I'm pretty sure that it's talking about the class Berserker, as in the deliberate summoning. Maybe the extra lines are something known only to the three families, ie normally Berserker and Assassin come up in the rotation like any other class.

Come to think of it, maybe there are extra lines for every class?

Mike1984
April 9th, 2011, 03:03 AM
No, I'm pretty sure that it's talking about the class Berserker, as in the deliberate summoning. Maybe the extra lines are something known only to the three families, ie normally Berserker and Assassin come up in the rotation like any other class.

Yeah, that's possible, since the only two people who summoned a Berserker were from the three families, and Kotomine (as Tokiomi's apprentice) would also have had access to that information for the purpose of summoning Assassin.


Come to think of it, maybe there are extra lines for every class?

If so, then Rin didn't know them (although, then again, there is a lot she didn't know, so...) and Tokiomi and Kiritsugu (and, therefore, Acht) either didn't know them or chose not to use them....

Tobias
April 9th, 2011, 04:13 AM
Remind me to use that class description for berserker the next time eddy or some other wise guy tries arguing servants are stronger then they are in life normally.

deadfish
April 9th, 2011, 05:20 AM
Erm, doesn't this somewhat contradict what we're told in Fate/Zero regarding summoning Berserker (i.e. that it's deliberate)?

It sure does.

Also, wut. Notdeadfish?

Tobias
April 9th, 2011, 05:24 AM
huh, there goes me figuring that was just you screwing around.

Hyarion
April 9th, 2011, 06:01 AM
"Sabre"? (among other British English spellings) "Arturia"? (arai uses Altria IIRC)

...I need to get out more if I start noticing things like that, huh. Though in my defense that was probably because the name threw me off.

terraablaze
April 9th, 2011, 07:00 AM
huh, there goes me figuring that was just you screwing around.

Your first clue was that he called Saber Arturia instead of the new Altria.

Or never mind because Hyraion pointed it out.

Yeah I thought he might be arai to for a moment until I saw him "correcting" the spelling.

NOT THAT I AM COMPLAINING OR ANYTHING PLEASE DO MORE

seriously I guessed arai did not translate it all because he thought it would never come up in a discussion and then food brings in stuff from CM3 that has not been translated about 3 times this last month

Kotonoha
April 9th, 2011, 08:20 AM
"Sabre"?

Food?!

Cruor
April 9th, 2011, 09:02 AM
That's what I was thinking >_>

(Actually, I think I remember a 'notdeadfish' in irc too when we were waiting for the new forum. Note: that wasn't me screwing around with other peoples names)

eddyak
April 9th, 2011, 11:01 AM
Remind me to use that class description for berserker the next time eddy or some other wise guy tries arguing servants are stronger then they are in life normally.
Hey, all I said was that they aren't always shitter than they were in life.

Tobias
April 9th, 2011, 11:30 AM
Normally it is considered ideal if a Servant can wield power at the level of the original Heroic Spirit

going from this statement, they almost always are.

meevanhelot
April 9th, 2011, 02:27 PM
That doesn't contradict what he said at all.

In fact, it supports what he's saying. If a Servant can equal the original Heroic Spirit, and even surpass them in certain cases, then Servants are not a downgrade of Heroic Spirits (even if a lot of Servants are downgraded by bad circumstances).

Hyarion
April 9th, 2011, 02:41 PM
Thing is, they're almost always downgraded. You don't exactly see a whole lot of "Cu Chulainn in Ireland with a Rin-tier Master" Servants.

terraablaze
April 9th, 2011, 02:56 PM
Thing is, they're almost always downgraded. You don't exactly see a whole lot of "Cu Chulainn in Ireland with a Rin-tier Master" Servants.

This.

Makes you kind of wonder what Lancer under Rin would look like. See what I did there?
Strength: B+
Agility: A++
Magic Energy: A
Endurance: Ex
"Can I mana transfer? Of course! I can mana transfer with you all month if need be!"

Tobias
April 9th, 2011, 03:12 PM
Thing is, they're almost always downgraded. You don't exactly see a whole lot of "Cu Chulainn in Ireland with a Rin-tier Master" Servants.

couldnt have said it better. Optimal circumstances means absolutely everything came together. Like run saber being summoned in England. So, if not every servant, then every servant we have seen before save black saber and berserker. Hell even rin saber probably isn't completely optimal.

terraablaze
April 9th, 2011, 03:15 PM
couldnt have said it better. Optimal circumstances means absolutely everything came together. Like run saber being summoned in England. So, if not every servant, then every servant we have seen before save black saber and berserker. Hell even rin saber probably isn't completely optimal.

She can not be, she lacks at least one Noble Phantasm she should possess.

Also I think you guys are forgetting what we should really be doing in this thread which is berate notdeadfish to translate more. *whip crack*

Cruor
April 9th, 2011, 03:43 PM
tobias, did you miss the point that an 'ideal' is a fantasy?

Tobias
April 9th, 2011, 03:58 PM
Did you miss the point that if ideal is a fantasy my point becomes inarguably true?

willyvereb
April 9th, 2011, 04:08 PM
Servant Class is a container that limits the Heroic Spirit's power(and thus the prana requirements to maintain them) according to a specific criteria.

Like Saber didn't have her dagger, spear and horse despite the real Arthur(ia) was in the possession of all. Same for certain stats, I guess like Heracles summoned as Archer would be limited in physical abilities compared to the Saber or Berserker classes.

Still, the point is: Servants aren't much weaker than Heroic Spirits.
Also there are still no proofs that the Heroic Spirits had all their power in life, before dying and transfered to the Throne.

Mike1984
April 9th, 2011, 04:19 PM
"Sabre"? (among other British English spellings)

Sabre isn't a "British English" spelling, at least in this context. It's just plain wrong....


Servant Class is a container that limits the Heroic Spirit's power(and thus the prana requirements to maintain them) according to a specific criteria.

Like Saber didn't have her dagger, spear and horse despite the real Arthur(ia) was in the possession of all. Same for certain stats, I guess like Heracles summoned as Archer would be limited in physical abilities compared to the Saber or Berserker classes.

Erm, you've got it totally the wrong way around here.

The class does not limit the servant, the limitations of the servant determine the class. Whilst being summoned and placed into a container does reduce their power, there is no evidence whatsoever that the reduction varies according to their class.

willyvereb
April 9th, 2011, 04:30 PM
So where did go Saber's spear? Arthur had one.
Or Lancer's sword? Cu Chunlain had one.

The class indeed limits the Heroic Spirits. Not really much in overall power, at least not officially.

Cruor
April 9th, 2011, 04:32 PM
Diarmund also had two swords.

Berserker's also missing lots of shit.


Did you miss the point that if ideal is a fantasy my point becomes inarguably true?

You said that all Heroic Spiritrs should be arund their lifetime abilities. Here:


eddy or some other wise guy tries arguing servants are stronger then they are in life normally.

And then you said:


going from this statement, they almost always are.
When the quote says


Normally it is considered ideal if a Servant can wield power at the level of the original Heroic Spirit
Nobody can reach that ideal.


Edit: double posted >_>

eddyak
April 9th, 2011, 04:37 PM
I think those weapons just aren't materialised because (Heracles excluded) when you're going up against other heroes, you're gonna want to be at your best, and King Arthur with Excalibur, Diarmuid with two spears and Cu Chullainn with Gae Bolg are at their best.

willyvereb
April 9th, 2011, 04:38 PM
To begin with Cu Chunlain had not one but three spears IIRC.

Although I feel retcon with this whole "Servant container" thing. Nasu just didn't want to give bucket loads of magic items to each Servant (save for one shiny bastard) and now they made this all up to explain it in universe.

Tobias
April 9th, 2011, 04:41 PM
Nooooooooo, you got it wrong. See, eddy said he was arguing that servants weren't shittier then in life, you see, then I said they almost always are, because they have to have ideal specs to reach the life time ability assuming they are not berserkers or blackened. We are arguing the same point, but your reading comprehension needs work. Hyarion got it.

Cruor
April 9th, 2011, 04:47 PM
Oh wait. You're right. Whoops. I blame it on tiredness but okay.

Tobias
April 9th, 2011, 04:50 PM
Ah, no worries, I been there to, except it's drunkenness instead of being tired.

Mcjon01
April 9th, 2011, 05:43 PM
Sabre isn't a "British English" spelling, at least in this context. It's just plain wrong....

Why is it wrong?

Hyarion
April 9th, 2011, 05:58 PM
Although I feel retcon with this whole "Servant container" thing. Nasu just didn't want to give bucket loads of magic items to each Servant (save for one shiny bastard) and now they made this all up to explain it in universe.

That's not a retcon. Hell, that isn't even a clarification.

Seriously, people, stop using retcon to describe something you don't like.

Tobias
April 9th, 2011, 06:12 PM
Hey, in my defense, I have only used retconned when I was arguing Len couldn't actually assume girl form and someone dug out a nasu interview when he said originally she wasn't supposed to then he changed his mind.

terraablaze
April 9th, 2011, 06:14 PM
Yeah I am with Hyarion

We have known about the Classes being containers for the Servants since the original novel.
Really I kind have wished I had registered on the old broad so I could tell you all how weird some of your collectively held beliefs are, they are not as self evident as you would have us believe.
Example Saber not being able to attack while in Avalon, even though it is has never been stated in any of the translated material that she can not do so and I am pretty sure she would have died in the last fight if she had to leave its protection.
Is it that hard to believe she can touch stuff that can not touch her? Servants can do that and you don't complain about that. I just always assumed it was like the Gnosis, only perfect.

Mike1984
April 9th, 2011, 06:20 PM
Why is it wrong?

Because it's not her name. She's called Saber, not Sabre.

Hyarion
April 9th, 2011, 06:29 PM
She's called セイバー, not Saber.

Granted TM did romanize it as Saber, but Sabre is just as good. I'm not a big fan of holding "official romanizations" above everything else -- like the Altria thing, Koto mentioned that Nasu gave the name he was aiming at recently and it actually sounded a lot closer to Arturia (anyone have a link to that?)

Mcjon01
April 9th, 2011, 06:43 PM
She's called セイバー, not Saber.

Granted TM did romanize it as Saber, but Sabre is just as good. I'm not a big fan of holding "official romanizations" above everything else -- like the Altria thing, Koto mentioned that Nasu gave the name he was aiming at recently and it actually sounded a lot closer to Arturia (anyone have a link to that?)

It actually sounds exactly like アルトリア, which I suppose might sound like "Arturia" to your vulgar ears. But yes, that's the argument I was working towards, since Mike seems to be saying that Saber is Saber because that's her name, but she isn't Altria because he doesn't like it.

Thanks for ruining my fun. D:

Tangerang
April 9th, 2011, 06:48 PM
What's the class in Extra called?

Shouldn't that settle this?

Hyarion
April 9th, 2011, 07:01 PM
It actually sounds exactly like アルトリア, which I suppose might sound like "Arturia" to your vulgar ears. But yes, that's the argument I was working towards, since Mike seems to be saying that Saber is Saber because that's her name, but she isn't Altria because he doesn't like it.

I realize Altria is a perfectly good romanization for アルトリア, yes. The issue is what Nasu was aiming at. Can't find a cache of the page I was looking for though, so... Koto, a little help here?

But yeah, since Saber and Sabre are just two different spellings with the exact same meaning and pronunciation I see no reason why they can't both be terms for the class セイバー.

Mike1984
April 9th, 2011, 07:04 PM
Well, all the rest of the classes end in "er" (except Assassin, of course), and since "sabre" is type of sword (and a French sword, at that) as opposed to the name of what she actually is (as opposed to Archer, Berserker etc., which are groups of people which the person summoned (broadly) fits into), if you're going to lose the aliteration of having every name end in "er", you might as well call her "swordswoman", since that is what she actually is.

Tangerang
April 9th, 2011, 07:06 PM
Hey hey tang, new idea, did I say something mean hen I was drunk?! You should no I diny mean to offend...! You are a friend, so I don wanna hurt you feelings?

No, I'm fairly sure you were sober.

Mazyrian
April 9th, 2011, 07:07 PM
In Extra is Saber

Tangerang
April 9th, 2011, 07:15 PM
multiple things from gd

Tangerang
April 9th, 2011, 07:25 PM
multiple things, not just one.

This is getting off-topic.

Anyway, if it's [Saber] in Extra, then shouldn't we assume [Saber] is the official and not [Sabre]?

Rockxas
April 9th, 2011, 07:28 PM
It's also "Saber" in Fate/Unlimited Codes.

notdeadfish
April 9th, 2011, 07:35 PM
+ Kojiro Sasaki


Because we are all tired of hearing about the Knight Classes.

eddyak
April 9th, 2011, 07:45 PM
+ Kojiro Sasaki


Because we are all tired of hearing about the Knight Classes.
You have my full support.

TypeWannabe
April 9th, 2011, 07:47 PM
Go on, add some info about him too. May as well.

deadfish
April 9th, 2011, 07:51 PM
He did. Look at the first post.

Tobias
April 9th, 2011, 08:00 PM
*read a through first post.


*wow' kojiro is amazing.

Airen
April 9th, 2011, 08:02 PM
Kojiro has always been amazing. His badassery knows no true limit!

No limit that I'll accept anyway

eddyak
April 9th, 2011, 08:03 PM
Knowledge of Respect and Harmony: B
A special ability that prevents the reduction of accuracy regardless how many times the same technique has been used on one foe. In other words, the ability to “render one’s attacks unreadable to the enemy”. Although Kojiro and Arturia crossed blades numerous times, due to this ability, Arturia still could not adapt to Kojiro’s technique despite having Rank A Instinct. Paired with Kojiro’s unique “head-shot” techniques, the effect is vastly increased.

No matter retreating and challenging him how many times, Arturia still cannot see through Kojiro’s techniques. She was always forced back to square one and fight as if it was the first encounter again.
Okay, now I'm even more impressed, with both Archer and Sasaki. Archer goes up against a guy who doesn't even need a stance, who could kill you if you dropped your guard for a moment, and makes you unable to read his attacks, and still comes away unscratched.

deadfish
April 9th, 2011, 08:06 PM
Of course, wasn't this pretty much what the game said?

Hyarion
April 9th, 2011, 08:08 PM
Eye of the Mind (False): A
Premonition (“Spidey-sense”) or sixth sense, very different from Emiya’s danger avoidance originated from “predictions augmented by experience”. It may be called a natural talent to sense danger. During the Grail War, in the battle with Arturia, Kojiro crossed blade with an invisible sword numerous times. He was able to use this ability to gauge even the length and width of the sword, and see through the fact that Arturia was unable to use her Noble Phantasm attack due to a lack of mana.

See through the weapon and style of his opponent after crossing blades only a few times, the perception of his eyes is the best among Servants.

Ha, I love this. EotM(F) is chronically underrated imo, especially when it's compared to Instinct.

notdeadfish
April 9th, 2011, 08:11 PM
Feedbacks are welcome, especially in the translation department.

terraablaze
April 9th, 2011, 08:40 PM
Feedbacks are welcome, especially in the translation department.

Judging from the previous comments I think they liked it, nay, loved it.
Deadfish knows Japanese and has the book and he did not say anything so I think that is the okay to keep on going for now.

Edit: I liked it a lot too. Keep it coming

Edit2: for the next one could you translate one of the Servant profiles with Divinity? Always curious if it elaborated what it did.

Kotonoha
April 9th, 2011, 11:31 PM
I realize Altria is a perfectly good romanization for アルトリア, yes. The issue is what Nasu was aiming at. Can't find a cache of the page I was looking for though, so... Koto, a little help here?

He was saying Arthur comes from Artorius, and the female version of that is Artoria, so he went with that.

It doesn't particularly matter if it's "closer to Arturia" though. It's either Artoria or Altria, not Arturia.

Hyarion
April 10th, 2011, 12:16 AM
It's closer to Arturia in pronunciation and in that it's a female version of an Arthur-related name instead of completely original.

Didn't mean that it was any more valid though, sorry, just trying to see if anyone remembered it. Artoria it is.

Kotonoha
April 10th, 2011, 12:20 AM
it's a female version of an Arthur-related name instead of completely original.

Pretty sure "Arturia" is not actually a name either.

Hyarion
April 10th, 2011, 12:27 AM
Don't know if it was invented or not, but either way it was supposed to be a female version of Arthur, so. *shrug*

Oh, BTW, what was the source on that, again? Google's just turning up a bunch of pages from 2004 -- apparently people called her Artoria back then, heh.

Kotonoha
April 10th, 2011, 12:34 AM
Why, page 20 of the very book this thread is about, my good man.

Hyarion
April 10th, 2011, 01:11 AM
Great, thought so. Thanks for that.

Also -- here's a relevant post I turned up when I was poking around earlier.


I've seen "Arturus" and "Arturius" (when it comes to the spellings with the "u"s) as Latinized forms of Arthur's name, which means that they are likely to be collateral forms. "Arturia" would be an acceptable feminine form of "Arturius."

"アルトリア" looks like it's approximating "Artoria," a feminine form of "Artorius" (approximated by "アルトリウス").

notdeadfish
April 10th, 2011, 07:33 PM
K&B fun tidbit for the Archer fans.

terraablaze
April 10th, 2011, 07:37 PM
K&B fun tidbit for the Archer fans.

Is this for real? Holy shit indeed!
Arai why did you never tell us this?
Original Kansho and Bakuya confirmed to be greater than ArcheType Earth? (joke)

Edit: Obviously OverEdge is Archer's attempt to make them even a fraction as good as they should be.
I kind of wonder whether they degrade that much because he is in Servant form, that just seems strange really.

Cruor
April 10th, 2011, 07:39 PM
Well there you have it. Cthulhu is on par with Gorgon Medusa..... And original K&B is actually a 100x more hax then the ones Archer replicates. I wonder how strong some of the other weapons originally were. UBW now sounds a lot less hax.

SeiKeo
April 10th, 2011, 07:40 PM
Holy shit since when were K&B so hax

terraablaze
April 10th, 2011, 08:03 PM
Well there you have it. Cthulhu is on par with Gorgon Medusa..... And original K&B is actually a 100x more hax then the ones Archer replicates. I wonder how strong some of the other weapons originally were. UBW now sounds a lot less hax.

Actually it just means they would be struck down in one blow, like if the extra dimensional being was 1/4th Medusa's Gorgon form in terms of general power/durability it would still get taken down in one blow. It does suggest they are roughly the same level. Actually if they are on par with the gods it may not be to ridiculous to suggest they could permakill Arc, maybe.

Also the next time we have a "can Archer/Shirou project Excalibur" debate I am pointing to this Q&A. Things are starting to make sense.
Speculation: if Archer ever shows up in Melty Blood as one of the two yet unrevealed characters his Arc Drive will be True Kansho and Bakuya, or 50% Kansho and Bakuya or something like that it. Will take down inhuman characters in one shot and give Archer three victories. (You know I am joking Dartz, right?)

Tangerang
April 10th, 2011, 08:04 PM
Oh god, this is hilarious, I literally burst out laughing.

Who would have guessed that K&B was so hax?

They're definitely on par with, or perhaps even surpass Excalibur.

food
April 10th, 2011, 08:12 PM
It is most likely an anti-phantasmal beast or monster-slaying Noble Phantasm that does a specialized job.

Not necessarily surpassing Excalibur, but amazing nonetheless.

Tangerang
April 10th, 2011, 08:13 PM
Wasn't completely serious, just random thought like

'Excalibur wiped out Cthulu in one blast. K&B can apparently wipe out Cthulu in one swing.'

terraablaze
April 10th, 2011, 08:16 PM
Sneaky sneaky notdeadfish
updating immediately after an update without informing us.

Tangerang
April 10th, 2011, 08:18 PM
Oh, and there's another common fanfic device shot down.

notdeadfish
April 10th, 2011, 08:19 PM
I know power level is a sensitive issue around here.

I am trying to tweak the language to convey as close an idea as the original without destroying the readability.

terraablaze
April 10th, 2011, 08:21 PM
I know power level is a sensitive issue around here.

I am trying to tweak the language to convey as close an idea as the original without destroying the readability.

Meh, people around here need to buck up around here.
Also what translation theory are you using? Making it fluent in English is not always the way to go per say.

Edit:
@Tang

Koto already told us Shinji's mother was not that great. Not exactly heart breaking. I wonder if it would have come up in the route where you team up with Shinji, and if it would have been awesome in some specific way if it did as opposed to "it's lame" sort of how Shirou is technically lame as a magus.

Mcjon01
April 10th, 2011, 08:29 PM
I'm going to go ahead and leave this here in case anybody translating wants to make use of it, because I, for one, find that the process goes so much smoother when you can freely manipulate the text and don't have to fumble around with stupid physical books.

Not that I will ever personally translate something for consumption by other people, nyah~

notdeadfish
April 10th, 2011, 08:29 PM
I am trying to adhere to the Beast Lair lexicon first, then deadfish's (if there are several ways to express it), and lastly the Mirror Moon script. If everything fails, I just translate it on my own Nasuverse-intuition.


I'm going to go ahead and leave this here in case anybody translating wants to make use of it, because I, for one, find that the process goes so much smoother when you can freely manipulate the text and don't have to fumble around with stupid physical books.

Not that I will ever personally translate something for consumption by other people, nyah~
Thank you.

This actually helps a ton.

Cruor
April 10th, 2011, 08:42 PM
Actually it just means they would be struck down in one blow, like if the extra dimensional being was 1/4th Medusa's Gorgon form in terms of general power/durability it would still get taken down in one blow. It does suggest they are roughly the same level. Actually if they are on par with the gods it may not be to ridiculous to suggest they could permakill Arc, maybe.

Also the next time we have a "can Archer/Shirou project Excalibur" debate I am pointing to this Q&A. Things are starting to make sense.
Speculation: if Archer ever shows up in Melty Blood as one of the two yet unrevealed characters his Arc Drive will be True Kansho and Bakuya, or 50% Kansho and Bakuya or something like that it. Will take down inhuman characters in one shot and give Archer three victories. (You know I am joking Dartz, right?)

I'm not sure if you got what I meant or not. I know they would be taken down in one blow. However, from how it's worded it seems both Gorgon Medusa and Cthulhu were on the same Tier/Level. Which is what I was talking about. And because people keep going on about how Cthulhu is probably really weak and how XXXX might be able to kill it. When it says right there that it is on the same tier as Gorgon modo Medusa- which needed a Heroic Spirit with 5 NP's that were specifically chosen to kill it.

Excaliblast is Divine Spirit level Thaumaturgy.

Mcjon01
April 10th, 2011, 09:07 PM
Q: Shinji's mother is a "Germ Preserver", what kind of germ is she holding? Is she a "God Holder"?
A: No, nothing special of that sort. According to Zouken, she is the daughter of "a third-rate magus by the street".

So, I'd probably phrase this as something like "a mere third-rate magus" or "nothing but a third-rate magus", since I think that's closer to what 路傍の三流魔術師 is getting at. Like, basically, it's somebody you just have absolutely no interest in at all, like a random passerby on the street. Literal translation really doesn't really get the meaning across here, I think.

And for whatever reason my gut feeling is that she's the third-rate magus, but I guess that could go either way.

Mike1984
April 10th, 2011, 09:29 PM
Well, I'd assume that the daughter of a third-rate magus would also be a third-rate magus (at best), so....

But, anyway, I guess that has a lot to do with why Zouken hated Kariya so much. He could, potentially, have gotten into a relationship with Aoi and given Zouken her child instead, who would have been powerful (not as powerful as Sakura, of course, but she'd have been a Matou and, thus, more suited to their magic).

Kotonoha
April 10th, 2011, 09:33 PM
"Germ Preserver" seems like a rather... literal TL choice for 保菌者. I mean the individual kanji are "preserve + germ + -er" but it just means carrier of a disease.

(IIRC when it was mentioned ingame, the furigana was "Carrier")

notdeadfish
April 10th, 2011, 09:49 PM
So, I'd probably phrase this as something like "a mere third-rate magus" or "nothing but a third-rate magus", since I think that's closer to what 路傍の三流魔術師 is getting at. Like, basically, it's somebody you just have absolutely no interest in at all, like a random passerby on the street. Literal translation really doesn't really get the meaning across here, I think.

And for whatever reason my gut feeling is that she's the third-rate magus, but I guess that could go either way.

Done.


"Germ Preserver" seems like a rather... literal TL choice for 保菌者. I mean the individual kanji are "preserve + germ + -er" but it just means carrier of a disease.

(IIRC when it was mentioned ingame, the furigana was "Carrier")

I think I will change it to "Holder", and leave in the translator note for those who are not familiar with the concept.

Kotonoha
April 10th, 2011, 09:56 PM
If it means anything, I found it in the script.

母親はどこぞの[ruby text="キ "]保[ruby text="ャ リ ア"]菌[ruby text=" ー"]者だったと言うが、出産した後は用済みになったのだろう。

So I think it is probably Carrier.

notdeadfish
April 10th, 2011, 10:02 PM
"Holder" is close to "Carrier", and using "Holder" also makes the connection with "God Holder" (canon romanisation), which are basically the same thing but at a higher level.

I think it gets the idea across without introducing more terms and making the concept unnecessarily complex.

O wait, I see what your post means. Gocha.

Kotonoha
April 10th, 2011, 10:04 PM
It doesn't make sense to make up your own term when we already have one though, that's complicating things.

...Hell, do we know if what she was is even all that closely related to Gods Holder? Nasu just kind of goes "nah".

EDIT: s'cool bro

notdeadfish
April 10th, 2011, 10:05 PM
Sorry, the way you posted the quote confused me a second.

Kotonoha
April 10th, 2011, 10:08 PM
You mean not everyone speaks KiriKiri?!

(At least the FSN scripts have most of the code stuff cleaned out... not like my HA scripts, gaaaah...)

Mcjon01
April 10th, 2011, 10:24 PM
Done.

Eh, I was mostly trying to say that you don't need to put "by the street" in the translation since that means absolutely nothing in English, and doesn't help convey what the Japanese is trying to say at all.

Cruor
April 10th, 2011, 10:30 PM
Eh, I was mostly trying to say that you don't need to put "by the street" in the translation since that means absolutely nothing in English, and doesn't help convey what the Japanese is trying to say at all.

Well, from 'a third rate magus' you would assume that the person isn't actually good but from 'by the street' you'd think they were a random passersby. So yeah, a nobody.

Tangerang
April 10th, 2011, 10:31 PM
'by the street' actually puts me to mind of a 'tramp' (is that the right word?)

Kotonoha
April 10th, 2011, 10:32 PM
"By the street" makes me think they grabbed some homeless girl and impregnated her. Or like a prostitute. A hitchhiker?


'by the street' actually puts me to mind of a 'tramp' (is that the right word?)

"Tramp" could refer to two things, both of which you could probably find by a street.

Cruor
April 10th, 2011, 10:33 PM
>_>

I was trying to be tame but you guys went out and said it.

TypeWannabe
April 10th, 2011, 10:37 PM
HOLY SHIT.

That translation actually cleared up something for me! (I think, this will likely start an argument). K&B were - ranked weapons in game, likely due to Shirou only seeing the flawed version that Archer projects. But taking into account the rank down, then they must really be B+...and since a + means a modifier under special conditions, (thanks to arai's chart thingie), then the + in this case must be that MONSTER KILLING SPECIALIZATION. I've always wondered about that -, and now this clears it up. Thanks translator!

Kotonoha
April 10th, 2011, 10:37 PM
Yes.

We are saying that Shinji's mother was a whore.

Cruor
April 10th, 2011, 10:40 PM
... That was actually the original wording of my post (random whore). But I swapped it to passerby to make it more tame (and general).

Tangerang
April 10th, 2011, 10:42 PM
Either that, or a really unlucky person?

Family somehow lost everything, therefore causing her to end up on the streets, at which points she gets taken in by the Matous?
Runs away from home only to run into Zouken who decides to take her to his own house for sinister purposes?
Other scenarios?

Shinji's mother is officially the new Sakura

Kotonoha
April 10th, 2011, 10:48 PM
"Hey man, can I get a lift to Shinto?"
"Of course. You just have to gestate my heir for nine months first."
"That sounds reasonable!"

Tangerang
April 10th, 2011, 10:49 PM
Wouldn't it be more like:

'I'm so alone out in a hostile world'
'Hey little girl, since I'm obviously such a kind and gentle and trustworthy person, why don't you stay at my place for the night'
'I'm a little doubtful...'
'I have candy'
'Okay. I see no reason why this could possibly be a horrible decision for me'

Mike1984
April 10th, 2011, 10:51 PM
Either that, or a really unlucky person?

Family somehow lost everything, therefore causing her to end up on the streets, at which points she gets taken in by the Matous?
Runs away from home only to run into Zouken who decides to take her to his own house for sinister purposes?
Other scenarios?

Shinji's mother is officially the new Sakura

Well, it seems likely that she was the second child of some minor magus family (since the first child would not be married into another family), and she was clearly either given to Zouken as a wife in good faith, or else stumbled upon Byakuya and was tempted by Zouken into marrying him, and I'm pretty sure her family didn't intend for her to be killed after giving birth, so I guess there are some similarities, yes....

Although, is it ever made clear whether she was murdered after giving birth, or died naturally and was then eaten by Zouken like all Matous are?


Wouldn't it be more like:

'I'm so alone out in a hostile world'
'Hey little girl, since I'm obviously such a kind and gentle and trustworthy person, why don't you stay at my place for the night'
'I'm a little doubtful...'
'I have candy'
'Okay. I see no reason why this could possibly be a horrible decision for me'

Well, I think she was probably willing, although I guess we can't rule out her being kidnapped for that purpose and then disposed of when she had given birth (which, indeed, was quite possibly Zouken's original plan for Sakura).

Mcjon01
April 10th, 2011, 11:07 PM
Yes.

We are saying that Shinji's mother was a whore.

Yeah, sure, why not? Whatever gets across the point that she's so not-special that Zouken barely even acknowledges her existence.

Tangerang
April 11th, 2011, 03:44 AM
...I suddenly found my fingers typing a post making a reference to Satsuki, when my brain registered the ramifications, as well as a mental picture.

And now I shall smash my head against the wall while I look for brain bleach.

Tobias
April 11th, 2011, 03:49 AM
HOLY SHIT.

That translation actually cleared up something for me! (I think, this will likely start an argument). K&B were - ranked weapons in game, likely due to Shirou only seeing the flawed version that Archer projects. But taking into account the rank down, then they must really be B+...and since a + means a modifier under special conditions, (thanks to arai's chart thingie), then the + in this case must be that MONSTER KILLING SPECIALIZATION. I've always wondered about that -, and now this clears it up. Thanks translator!


Wait wait, a plus enhancement usually conveys a rank up probability equal to double original power. Wouldn't that mean that if you ignore the rank up that K and B would still be willing to two shot cluthu?

Or am I reading to much into the standard definition of the enhancement?

Also....wow, archer's replications must suuuuuuuuuuuck......that didn't even come up in rider vs archer.

deadfish
April 11th, 2011, 04:48 AM
Yebus christ. Can't you tell when Nasu is joking?

Tobias
April 11th, 2011, 04:54 AM
Not really, no?


How much of that was serious, if any?

deadfish
April 11th, 2011, 05:03 AM
Probably none.

That's so disconnected from the source legend it's just, huh??

meevanhelot
April 11th, 2011, 05:10 AM
It's pretty obvious anyway given Archer's don't have that ability at all. A single rank down does not mean a complete loss of the ability of the NP. That would be an All Rank Down.

Mike1984
April 11th, 2011, 05:18 AM
Not really, no?


How much of that was serious, if any?

Yeah, I did think that was rather too ridiculous to be true, rather like the Taiga fight that someone posted before....

Tobias
April 11th, 2011, 05:20 AM
I have no ability to interpret serious nasu from kidding nasu.

He always confuses me.

deadfish
April 11th, 2011, 05:30 AM
Also ズンバラリン feels kind of different from "single strike".

meevanhelot
April 11th, 2011, 06:28 AM
I pretty much just always assume he's kidding unless he's explaining the mechanics of something we've already seen.

I mean, if you took everything he says seriously then Captain Ahab defeated a living super weapon that make dragons look like pussies.

Tobias
April 11th, 2011, 06:29 AM
Captain ahab needed a nerf.

terraablaze
April 11th, 2011, 07:35 AM
I pretty much just always assume he's kidding unless he's explaining the mechanics of something we've already seen.

I mean, if you took everything he says seriously then Captain Ahab defeated a living super weapon that make dragons look like pussies.

You mean that Moby Dick is a super weapon of a dragon that is still alive. He is mentioned as currently existing so I doubt he is dead. I don't think Ahab killed him in Moby Dick anyway.

Mcjon01
April 11th, 2011, 07:57 AM
Probably none.

That's so disconnected from the source legend it's just, huh??

I always kind of thought that activating kansho and bakuya as NPs would just cause the user's head to fall off, but that might be because my only exposure to the legend is the version on wikipedia.

And I think I've got a pretty good handle on when Nasu is just joking around. (The answer is "almost always")

meevanhelot
April 11th, 2011, 09:49 AM
You mean that Moby Dick is a super weapon of a dragon that is still alive. He is mentioned as currently existing so I doubt he is dead. I don't think Ahab killed him in Moby Dick anyway.

Where did I say killed? He kicked its ass. Your argument is invalid.

terraablaze
April 11th, 2011, 09:55 AM
Where did I say killed? He kicked its ass. Your argument is invalid.

Since when did harpooning a giant whale (or in this case a dragon) twice count as kicking its ass? I would be surprised if Moby Dick even felt it. Moby Dick does not even bother personally killing Ahab, I think he gets strangled by his own harpoon line after the ship is wrecked by Dick's charge. I guess if we translate that into Nasu terms it is amazing Ahab even did that well but still I would put the Inuit guy down as the bigger badass.

meevanhelot
April 11th, 2011, 10:04 AM
He fucked up the whale in the book (last I checked, whales get killed all the time by a single harpoon), therefore it seems pretty logical that he fucked up the super dragon.

Otherwise why bother using Moby Dick, since its the only thing it's known for.

The only other reason would be, oh I dunno, because he was fucking around and not remotely serious.

eddyak
April 11th, 2011, 10:05 AM
You mean that Moby Dick is a super weapon of a dragon that is still alive. He is mentioned as currently existing so I doubt he is dead. I don't think Ahab killed him in Moby Dick anyway.
"Still existing" in the same way the Types "still exist" even after their bodies are destroyed?

terraablaze
April 11th, 2011, 10:13 AM
"Still existing" in the same way the Types "still exist" even after their bodies are destroyed?

He also says he can still influence the world so no, like he is still fully functional, he probably would have healed after a couple of centuries.

@deadfish
What legends of Gan Jiang and Mo Xie are you talking about? I am finding to many. Some where they cut off heads and the heads stay alive and do head stuff, others where they reunite with singing and other weird crap, and another where a couple clears out an entire realm of monsters (okay that last one was a drama but Gilgamesh always came across as more Final Fantasy at times then Epic of so I won't discount it immediately). But yeah it is hard to tell at times when Japanese people are joking especially when they are so specific, it sounds like anything else he would say.

Edit: Why use Moby Dick, this is the same author who thought it would be a good idea to name a vampire Enhance, we have yet to hear the reasoning behind that but it probably is not what we expect (in Kara no Kyuokai I remember Touko using alternate writings of peoples names to explain how you could guess there ability before it was displayed).

TypeWannabe
April 11th, 2011, 02:21 PM
So, we're going to say this K&B stuff was a joke, yet the Moby Dick one is not? I'm not even sure if the term Double Standard can be applied here.

terraablaze
April 11th, 2011, 02:26 PM
So, we're going to say this K&B stuff was a joke, yet the Moby Dick one is not? I'm not even sure if the term Double Standard can be applied here.

Really it does not matter, we are probably never going to see the original Bakuya and Kansho in action nor will we see this Moby Dick. This is the same author that decided to make Overedge cannon because the anime made it look so cool apparently. He could have been having fun and decided "Hey that is a good idea" and put it into his box of ideas which we will probably never see.
Also I would say even if Moby Dick was injured badly he still wrecked two ships and then completely destroyed another by diving and taking it down in his whirlpool, sounds like victory to me.

Mcjon01
April 11th, 2011, 02:48 PM
He could have been having fun and decided "Hey that is a good idea" and put it into his box of ideas which we will probably never see.

Ha, one of the questions in CM3 is about Rin's time at the Clock Tower, and whether her tutelage from Zelretch is going to end up with her getting into vampire fights and shit. Nasu then answers by going on for a bit about how awesome the exciting London chapter is going to be, and to look forward to it's release by the Type Moon of another universe.

He's such a troll.

Rockxas
April 11th, 2011, 02:59 PM
Ha, one of the questions in CM3 is about Rin's time at the Clock Tower, and whether her tutelage from Zelretch is going to end up with her getting into vampire fights and shit. Nasu then answers by going on for a bit about how awesome the exciting London chapter is going to be, and to look forward to it's release by the Type Moon of another universe.

He's such a troll.
He... He's a meanie! ;___;

Kotonoha
April 11th, 2011, 03:10 PM
Ha, one of the questions in CM3 is about Rin's time at the Clock Tower, and whether her tutelage from Zelretch is going to end up with her getting into vampire fights and shit. Nasu then answers by going on for a bit about how awesome the exciting London chapter is going to be, and to look forward to it's release by the Type Moon of another universe.

He's such a troll.

This is why I love Nasu.

terraablaze
April 11th, 2011, 03:10 PM
Ha, one of the questions in CM3 is about Rin's time at the Clock Tower, and whether her tutelage from Zelretch is going to end up with her getting into vampire fights and shit. Nasu then answers by going on for a bit about how awesome the exciting London chapter is going to be, and to look forward to it's release by the Type Moon of another universe.

He's such a troll.

Dear god it is so brilliant.

We need someone to write a fic about that. Maybe have her solo Dead Apostle Ancestors.

Tangerang
April 11th, 2011, 03:21 PM
Makes sense. After all, Rin under Zeltretch would be hopping to alternate universes. So we need the Type Moon of that universe to release the work, give it to someone with the 2nd, who brings it back over to our verse.

Cruor
April 11th, 2011, 03:26 PM
Did anyone ask about Fem's Casa?

Tobias
April 11th, 2011, 03:38 PM
Dear god it is so brilliant.

We need someone to write a fic about that. Maybe have her solo Dead Apostle Ancestors.



....see elf, this is why you should update black princesses.

terraablaze
April 11th, 2011, 05:14 PM
Did anyone ask about Fem's Casa?

What be this?

Also this stuff is like crack, I need MOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOORRRRRRRRRRRREEEEEEEE!

Tobias
April 11th, 2011, 05:25 PM
I wonder if the shinji's mother was a whore thing was also a joke.


I mean, that's sounds like it was meant to be funny?

Gah! Now I'm second guessing everything I ever read, its useless, it's all useless, NAAAAAAAAAAAAAAASSSSSSSUUUUUUUUUUUUU

TypeWannabe
April 11th, 2011, 05:29 PM
Don't stress it tobias. Roll with the laughter.

Tangerang
April 11th, 2011, 05:39 PM
I don't think he ever said she was a whore, it's just that with the phrasing some of us made that interpretation as a joke, and then it seems to be getting taken a bit more seriously?

If we keep this up, it'll probably appear on the type moon wiki soon!

Shinji's mother: a whore

Kotonoha
April 11th, 2011, 06:18 PM
Yeah, just to clarify... it was a joke by us about how Not-Arai's wording sounded like it had a double meaning in English, not something Nasu actually implied. :P

Tobias
April 11th, 2011, 06:20 PM
I know....I was....I was trying to be funny.



I'll just....see myself out, shall I?

Mcjon01
April 11th, 2011, 07:10 PM
Also ズンバラリン feels kind of different from "single strike".

Kind of unrelated, but I couldn't take that Kansho and Bakuya answer seriously at all just because ズンバラリン makes me think of this:


http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6z9ww_op_shortfilms

Which in turn makes me imagine Archer as Hattori-kun.

Kotonoha
April 11th, 2011, 08:10 PM
That is some seriously fluid animation right there.

terraablaze
April 11th, 2011, 09:11 PM
Kind of unrelated, but I couldn't take that Kansho and Bakuya answer seriously at all just because ズンバラリン makes me think of this:


http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6z9ww_op_shortfilms

Which in turn makes me imagine Archer as Hattori-kun.

What are you talking about, now Archer is a true hero of justice. Also what does that part mean? You people who know japanese keep talking about it and I feel left out.

deadfish
April 12th, 2011, 10:39 AM
It's kind of like a Ker-POW! Except with a sword. Like there's a swordfight, and there's clashing and clanging. Then there's the sound of the blade swooshing through flesh and the guys falling down, and tada, Zun-bararin!



Probably.


It's also a move in Digital Devil Saga that got translated as Double Slash (wut?).

Kotonoha
April 12th, 2011, 10:48 AM
Can Googling "zunbararin" solve this mystery?!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGUqbGVq9ac

Huh.

Mcjon01
April 12th, 2011, 11:36 AM
It's kind of hard to pin down since it's not like it's defined anywhere, but in my head it's something like the sound you get when one of those samurai quick-draws happens and then there's that white flash across the screen and then a second later things start falling in half diagonally.

willyvereb
April 12th, 2011, 11:56 AM
Single Stroke Battle (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SingleStrokeBattle) ?

Tobias
April 12th, 2011, 12:16 PM
single stroke battle sounds like the title of a very short bukakke film.

willyvereb
April 12th, 2011, 12:22 PM
Well, the trope has the picture of Ryougi slashing up a zombie so...

Tangerang
April 12th, 2011, 01:25 PM
what are you trying to imply there?

Mcjon01
April 12th, 2011, 03:02 PM
Single Stroke Battle (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SingleStrokeBattle) ?

If we're going to link to TV Tropes, I would have gone with Audible Sharpness (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AudibleSharpness). Because swords are noisy.

notdeadfish
April 12th, 2011, 08:18 PM
It's kind of hard to pin down since it's not like it's defined anywhere, but in my head it's something like the sound you get when one of those samurai quick-draws happens and then there's that white flash across the screen and then a second later things start falling in half diagonally.

This is basically the idea I went by... so I put "cut down in one strike". I am not sure how else to put it.


Yeah, just to clarify... it was a joke by us about how Not-Arai's wording sounded like it had a double meaning in English, not something Nasu actually implied. :P

It's not my fault at all.

The text said she's the daughter of "a third-rate magus by the street". You guys warped it as "tramp by the street". The wording's fine. You guys need to get your minds out of the gutter, lol.


Yebus christ. Can't you tell when Nasu is joking?

I disagree. I think Nasu was serious, but putting it in a more entertaining way. Just like when he described that Gate of Babylon has all kinds of stuff in it, he called Gilgamesh "NEET of Babylon" (like he can live off of it).

Also, the Noble Phantasm section is pretty serious, compared to the Character section, which is more for laughs.

Mike1984
April 12th, 2011, 09:06 PM
The text said she's the daughter of "a third-rate magus by the street". You guys warped it as "tramp by the street". The wording's fine. You guys need to get your minds out of the gutter, lol.

No, the wording isn't fine, because "third-rate magus by the street" doesn't actually make sense. So, it was natural for us to try to make sense of by interpreting "by the street" to mean something it did not.

notdeadfish
April 12th, 2011, 09:12 PM
No, the wording isn't fine, because "third-rate magus by the street" doesn't actually make sense. So, it was natural for us to try to make sense of by interpreting "by the street" to mean something it did not.

You see, even the original text of "a third-rate magus by the street" was put in quotation marks.

It is not meant to be immediately obvious to you. You are supposed to interpret the amount of venom in Zouken's remark.

Mike1984
April 12th, 2011, 09:15 PM
Perhaps, but in English that phase doesn't denote venom, it denotes "I'm talking complete gobbledegook"....

TypeWannabe
April 12th, 2011, 09:17 PM
Argh, which is it!? Was Nasu kidding or was he not!? How can he troll in a completely different language!?

notdeadfish
April 12th, 2011, 09:20 PM
Perhaps, but in English that phase doesn't denote venom, it denotes "I'm talking complete gobbledegook"....
You are supposed to interpret.

If you think it's gobbledegook, then I can't help it. The original purpose of the quote is to present you Zouken's own words.

I try my best to make Nasu's language sensible in English, but I don't feel right to actually alter actual character quotes.


Argh, which is it!? Was Nasu kidding or was he not!? How can he troll in a completely different language!?

It's basically an insult, i.e. she's the daughter of some random third-rate no-name low-class.

TypeWannabe
April 12th, 2011, 09:25 PM
Er, I meant about Kanshou and Bakuya.

notdeadfish
April 12th, 2011, 09:33 PM
I think he was serious.

He gave the nod to the question, which brought up Kansho and Bakuya being swords reaching the realm of gods at the cost of human lives. His answer serves as an elaboration to what this "reaching realm of gods" supposed to be (slaughtering monstrosities of even the highest calibre).

Mcjon01
April 12th, 2011, 09:46 PM
You are supposed to interpret.

If you think it's gobbledegook, then I can't help it. The original purpose of the quote is to present you Zouken's own words.

I try my best to make Nasu's language sensible in English, but I don't feel right to actually alter actual character quotes.

There's really nothing to interpret in the Japanese, it's face-smackingly obvious what Zouken's saying. If the literal English translation is coming out in a way that actually requires interpretation then something went terribly, terribly wrong.
Personally, I'd translate it as something like 『According to Zouken, she's "nothing more than a third-rate magus".』, but don't quote me on that. There might be a better way to get across how much her lack of usefulness to him makes Zouken not care about her, but I don't want to be too wordy about it.

notdeadfish
April 12th, 2011, 09:50 PM
Of course, you don't need to be a genius to figure out it's an insult.

Nasu could have just said "she's the daughter of a third-rate magus", instead of "Zouken said she's the daughter of a third-rate magus by the road".

I preserve the whole thing because I suspect Nasu wanted to tell you something about Zouken's character through his quote.

Mike1984
April 12th, 2011, 09:53 PM
Yeah, but "by the road" means absolutely nothing in English. I assume that it's some kind of Japanese idiom which simply does not translate well.

notdeadfish
April 12th, 2011, 09:56 PM
I don't think it's actually an idiom or anything like that.

"By the road" denotes about the same thing as most cultures: strays, the homeless, beggars, the lower-class etc.

Mcjon01
April 12th, 2011, 10:03 PM
I don't think it's actually an idiom or anything like that.

"By the road" denotes about the same thing as most cultures: strays, the homeless, beggars, the lower-class etc.

But it kind of is, I think. See 「路傍の人」, for example. Sure, it can literally mean a person you pass on the road, but it has another usage where the "roadside" meaning vanishes, and it basically turns into "utter stranger", or "a person completely irrelevant to you".

food
April 12th, 2011, 10:13 PM
Mmmm, so it's more close to "no-name third-rate magus"?

Tangerang
April 12th, 2011, 10:15 PM
So, what's wrong with the current translation?

This really feels rather nitpicky

notdeadfish
April 12th, 2011, 10:15 PM
It seems to be a corrupt from of 「路傍の人」 then.

EDIT:
Nothing really. It's just literal. Mike wants it to be more culturally sensitive.

EDIT:
Changed to "a random third-rate magus".

Tobias
April 12th, 2011, 10:36 PM
Sooo, wait, the sword thing may not have been a joke?

This is like some kind of elaborate prank to screw with my head, isn't it?

Tangerang
April 12th, 2011, 10:52 PM
A troll within a troll.

Trollception

Tobias
April 12th, 2011, 11:34 PM
I am actually quite frustrated now. I believe I shall go have a shot and lie down before the tears begin.

Kotonoha
April 12th, 2011, 11:40 PM
A troll within a troll.

Trollception

Nasu: We need to go derper!

Tangerang
April 12th, 2011, 11:57 PM
http://oi51.tinypic.com/2confxz.jpg

This image was copied and edited from a League of Legends thread (http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=601094)

terraablaze
April 13th, 2011, 10:52 AM
Personally I thought the literal translation is fine.
I don't mind being reminded that I am reading a translation.
I thought of it less as "Shinji's mother is a whore" and read it as homless person or hitchhiker.

Kotonoha
April 13th, 2011, 10:57 AM
But... it doesn't mean homeless person or hitchhiker, so you're proving Mcjon's point.

What he's got now is fine though.

terraablaze
April 13th, 2011, 11:03 AM
But... it doesn't mean homeless person or hitchhiker, so you're proving Mcjon's point.

What he's got now is fine though.

Someone you met on the street sounds like a hitch hiker or homeless person to me. Who else do you meet on the street?

Kotonoha
April 13th, 2011, 11:05 AM
Yes. "On the street" in English makes it sound like you're talking about homeless people which is a connotation the original text does not carry. That is the point.

Although the idea of Zouken wandering around alleys trying to find homeless magi is funny.

terraablaze
April 13th, 2011, 11:21 AM
Yes. "On the street" in English makes it sound like you're talking about homeless people which is a connotation the original text does not carry. That is the point.

Although the idea of Zouken wandering around alleys trying to find homeless magi is funny.

What do you think he spends his nights doing? He has got to keep himself busy some how.
"Hmm what is this purple haired girl doing in this ally...Back Alley What?"

Kotonoha
April 13th, 2011, 11:49 AM
Satsuki is Shinji's mom.

Tobias
April 13th, 2011, 11:51 AM
knew that was coming eventually.

meevanhelot
April 13th, 2011, 11:52 AM
If Satsuki is the daughter of a third rate magus then she won the genetic lottery and Shinji lost it massively.

Tangerang
April 13th, 2011, 02:00 PM
Satsuki is Shinji's mom.



*earlier stuff about homeless tramps and whores and whatnot*


...I suddenly found my fingers typing a post making a reference to Satsuki, when my brain registered the ramifications, as well as a mental picture.

And now I shall smash my head against the wall while I look for brain bleach.




knew that was coming eventually.

I predicted that over 7 pages ago!

...and after finally getting that horrifying mental picture somewhat out of my mind, it's now back in full force.

that's koto :|

Mcjon01
April 13th, 2011, 02:11 PM
If Satsuki is the daughter of a third rate magus then she won the genetic lottery and Shinji lost it massively.

It all makes sense now. The word "musume" doesn't always mean "daughter", it can also be a generic term for a young girl/woman. Satsuki is a young girl/woman. Ergo, not only is Satsuki Shinji's mother, but Zouken considers her a third-rate magus that isn't worth his time. Knowing what we know about Satsuki's potential, that means that Nasuverse mages are stronger than we ever considered possible and that every example we've seen so far has been weak like baby.

terraablaze
April 13th, 2011, 02:18 PM
It all makes sense now. The word "musume" doesn't always mean "daughter", it can also be a generic term for a young girl/woman. Satsuki is a young girl/woman. Ergo, not only is Satsuki Shinji's mother, but Zouken considers her a third-rate magus that isn't worth his time. Knowing what we know about Satsuki's potential, that means that Nasuverse mages are stronger than we ever considered possible and that every example we've seen so far has been weak like baby.

Well they are described as being better at fighting Dead Apostles than the church because of a firepower advantage and being immersed in mystery themselves. I mean as impressive as Shirou is he is only described as a 10 usually 40 in certain situations. In other words having a Reality Marble and making Noble Phantasms easy means Nasu thinks he is less than half as good as Rin. Rin is only one out of 100 top magi and then you factor in that a lot of the good magi like the Clock Tower Head can possibly be 2000 years old means the Association probably has a lot of potential lying around. And that does not include people like the Einzberns who aren't in the Association.

Tobias
April 13th, 2011, 02:21 PM
lorelei is a mage who beats down servant level enemy's using orthodox, simple is best magic.

fuck you aoko, I dont need sorcery to reach servant tier when I am just that damn good

Tangerang
April 13th, 2011, 02:23 PM
Well they are described as being better at fighting Dead Apostles than the church because of a firepower advantage and being immersed in mystery themselves. I mean as impressive as Shirou is he is only described as a 10 usually 40 in certain situations. In other words having a Reality Marble and making Noble Phantasms easy means Nasu thinks he is less than half as good as Rin. Rin is only one out of 100 top magi and then you factor in that a lot of the good magi like the Clock Tower Head can possibly be 2000 years old means the Association probably has a lot of potential lying around. And that does not include people like the Einzberns who aren't in the Association.

you're missing the joke.

Satsuki is the person who according to Aoko, even the DAA are keeping an eye on after just like what, 1 year? 6 months? of being a vampire.

And Zouken considers that small fry.

In other words, average magus >> DAA, or something.

that's the joke.



*wait, where does it say magi are better at fighting DA than the church?

Cruor
April 13th, 2011, 02:26 PM
and then you factor in that a lot of the good magi like the Clock Tower Head can possibly be 2000 years old means the Association probably has a lot of potential lying around.
The Association/Clock Tower has only been around since the Middle Ages.

And the Barthomeloi's supposedly have been keeping their Thaumaturgy around since the Age of Gods.

Tobias
April 13th, 2011, 02:26 PM
*wait, where does it say magi are better at fighting DA than the church?

what?

*rereads last post*

really? I dont remember anything like that.

Cruor
April 13th, 2011, 02:29 PM
Neither do I. I just went along ignoring it as that's what everyone else was doing.

terraablaze
April 13th, 2011, 02:30 PM
what?

*rereads last post*

really? I dont remember anything like that.

In one of the sections of Tsukihime 2 it talks about what the Church is planning, something like "leave most of the fighting to the magi and then swoop in to finish them off and elimanate as much heresy as possible." And it talks about it somewhere in there.
Or that is what I remember it was in the section with Dawn.

Edit: derp nevermind here is what it said:

It's true the power of the Mage's Association surpass that of the Church.
But for the Dead Apostles, the mediators of the Church were the most difficult enemies to face.
It's a bit of a stretch, but the mages are the same type of existence as the Dead Apostles. If their understanding of the super natural was the same, the Dead Apostles who were at an higher point would simply have the upper hand. Then those who are threat to them are humans who speak the words of god.
So obviously, the Dead Apostles want the Church to be crushed by the Mages as soon as possible, but it wouldn't be that easy.

Not sure how I mixed that up, I remember being surprised by it at the time which is why I remember it that way

Tangerang
April 13th, 2011, 02:40 PM
so...isn't it almost the complete opposite of what you said?

Tobias
April 13th, 2011, 02:41 PM
he was admitting he had it wrong.

Tangerang
April 13th, 2011, 02:55 PM
...so about that Zouken. Super high standards, huh?

Tobias
April 13th, 2011, 03:05 PM
random....thought that actually kind of makes sense......

maybe zouken was a purist? old men often are. even if satsuki had amazing potential, if she wasn't from a pure old line like the matous she would be just a third rate magus. an opinion which seems like it would have hardened further after shinji didn't inherit any.

Cruor
April 13th, 2011, 03:07 PM
Yeah, I wonder if he heard the date wrong when he called Medea.

Tangerang
April 13th, 2011, 03:32 PM
so picky! his loss.

wait, that means it's a good thing for us, right?


Yeah, I wonder if he heard the date wrong when he called Medea.


i don't get it?

terraablaze
April 13th, 2011, 05:16 PM
I would like to point out that there are other magi besides the Association which is what that section was referring to, there are quite a few of the Dead Apostle Ancestors that reached that level via magic alone (or I think, some seem to be magi that got bit as well) such as Nrvnqsr Chaos. We don't really know how the Sea of Estray or the Eastern Association stacks up. Now I am getting curious about South American magic (or just American magic).

Altima of the Gates
April 13th, 2011, 11:10 PM
random....thought that actually kind of makes sense......

maybe zouken was a purist? old men often are. even if satsuki had amazing potential, if she wasn't from a pure old line like the matous she would be just a third rate magus. an opinion which seems like it would have hardened further after shinji didn't inherit any.

Well he kinda wasted one from an old line anyway, so I think the poor boy may just be senile. His sense just ain't what it used to be.

Mike1984
April 13th, 2011, 11:23 PM
Well, his original plan for Sakura was sound, and had Shinji lived he could even have bred her with Shinji to produce a Matou magus with her power (or some fraction of it, at least).

The problem with Sakura is that he had to change her body, because otherwise he could neither train nor control her. And, once he'd abused her so horribly she was hardly likely to be particularly receptive to learning magic the normal way. So, whilst he did indeed waste her potential, I'm not sure it was through stupidity, but rather through necessity (for his plans, I mean).

food
April 14th, 2011, 03:36 PM
Sooo, wait, the sword thing may not have been a joke?

This is like some kind of elaborate prank to screw with my head, isn't it?

You know what this reminds me of?

The whole "Excalibur is not trace-able, Shirou projected something similar".

And this, because the original Kansho and Bakuya are "weapons of the realm of gods" (sounds familiar? lol Excalibur lol Ea), Archer traced something similar, but not the real Kansho and Bakuya.

Nasu's CM3 trolling is meta and self-referencing.

Tangerang
April 14th, 2011, 03:56 PM
So...

Original K&B is actually on same tier as Excalibur and Ea?

I feel like I already actually made a joke similar to that.

food
April 14th, 2011, 04:18 PM
Depends on how hard you want to chew the words.

The question said something like "human lives were sacrificed to forge these swords in order for them to become god-level weapons".

The words were "神域の業物", which are different from the "神造兵器" used to describe Excalibur and Ea.

"神造兵器" = weapons explicitly forged by Gods
"神域の業物"= swords of the realm of Gods (like what the Gods can forge?)

The phrase "神域の業物" were not used by Nasu, they appeared in the question (presumed asked by fans). Nasu seemed to be cool with the term, as he did not deny it or rephrase it.

eddyak
April 14th, 2011, 04:18 PM
You know what this reminds me of?

The whole "Excalibur is not trace-able, Shirou projected something similar".

And this, because the original Kansho and Bakuya are "weapons of the realm of gods" (sounds familiar? lol Excalibur lol Ea), Archer traced something similar, but not the real Kansho and Bakuya.

Nasu's CM3 trolling is meta and self-referencing.
I was gonna say something like this, but sorta lost my point halfway through. Archer can't project Excalibur, he ends up with "Excalibur". All projections are a rank down, but Excalibur needs to be A++, otherwise it's just a crappy copy.

Something about K&B being C- ranked amongst the monster-killing weapons, so B or B+ would've been their normal state if they'd been used by a hero and became part of his legend, they lost those powers because C- rank can't be "lol kills monsters in one hit"

Tangerang
April 14th, 2011, 04:20 PM
Depends on how hard you want to chew the words.

The question said something like "human lives were sacrificed to forge these swords in order for them to become god-level weapons".

The words were "神域の業物", which are different from the "神造兵器" used to describe Excalibur and Ea.

"神造兵器" = weapons explicitly forged by Gods
"神域の業物"= swords reaching the realm of Gods (like what the Gods can forge?)

'reaching the realm of gods' reminds of Tsubame Gaeshi.

This is okay in my book?

K&B are the Tsubame Gaeshi of swords?

food
April 14th, 2011, 04:27 PM
This "realm of Gods" is not necessarily "heaven" or "where god lives".

It's more like "on the level of God", "something a God can do".

Tangerang
April 14th, 2011, 04:36 PM
that's how I already interpreted it?

food
April 14th, 2011, 04:37 PM
Just to make sure power-level is not inflated here.



EDIT:

Now let's see if Type-Moon is going to milk Fate some more, and next time Archer appears, it is going to be "The Kansho and Bakuya you saw were merely poor mimicries I toy with, let me show you the REAL Kansho and Bakuya" *super saiyan style power surge and aura*

Counterguardian
April 14th, 2011, 05:35 PM
Archer will then poke Cthulhu with his swords and it will disintegrate instantly.

Saber, Alexander, Zero!Lancer and Gilgamesh will proceed to shit themselves.

Mazyrian
April 14th, 2011, 05:36 PM
Blond Archer?

terraablaze
April 14th, 2011, 05:42 PM
Just to make sure power-level is not inflated here.



EDIT:

Now let's see if Type-Moon is going to milk Fate some more, and next time Archer appears, it is going to be "The Kansho and Bakuya you saw were merely poor mimicries I toy with, let me show you the REAL Kansho and Bakuya" *super saiyan style power surge and aura*

It will also be revealed that as a being out of time he had knowledge of all the routes, also in any route where he dies before the last day he is throwing the war because he has no need to interfere further.

Cruor
April 14th, 2011, 06:05 PM
i don't get it?

Obviously only top tier magus' like Medea are fit to revive his family.

willyvereb
April 14th, 2011, 06:17 PM
Blond Archer?
1492
THE ORIGINAL FAKER!

Milbunk
April 14th, 2011, 06:19 PM
He looks like he's pouting.

Kotonoha
April 14th, 2011, 07:07 PM
His hands are tanned, but not the rest of him.

willyvereb
April 14th, 2011, 07:20 PM
^Nah, I'm sure that's only for the lighting. Archamesh's face and hands are of the same tone /lie