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HercFan
June 7th, 2013, 03:07 PM
I am a giant Hercules fan, as you can see from my user name. So I am kinda wondering what Hercules would be like as other Servant type?

Saber? Would he keep Nine Lives and Godhand? What sword would he use?

Archer? Does the Hydra poison arrows count as the Nine Lives NP or would it be another NP?

Rider? What creature would Hercules ride? Cerberus? Mares of Diomedes? Would he summon his twin brother Iphicles? Or would he have an NP that has to do something with the Argonauts?

Lancer? Does even have a famous lance/spear that he uses?

Assassin? Big guy that sneaks up on people?

Caster? Muscle Wizard?

RavingScholar
June 7th, 2013, 03:42 PM
Well, he wouldn't be Caster at all so that's out. Assassin would be absolutely hilarious, and he did do sneaking around in his (many) legends. And for all of his classes, I'd imagine he'd keep God Hand at the very least.

terraablaze
June 7th, 2013, 03:51 PM
Nine Lives is a fighting style so he probably keeps it every class except obviously Berserker. He probably wouldn't be able to summon another Heroic Spirit as a general rule. The bow with the Hydra poison seems to be Nine Lives the bow in Nasu's version. No idea what he would ride or what lance he would use other then say a generic lance with the Nine Lives style applied to it.

Christemo
June 7th, 2013, 03:57 PM
Lets just clear up a couple of things before we go into this:

1. Hercules does not possess the ability to be a Caster.

2. the Berserker class has heavily changed his physique, namely the elbow-growths and his odd skin color, as well as discoloring one of his eyes to a deep red. It may also impact his height, which is why he is so huge, but that´s too vague to confirm.

3. His Noble Phantasms besides God Hand are the Bow of the Hydra (not the poison arrows, hydra poison is impossible to acquire in the modern world besides the preserved juvenile Hydra in the possession of Kairi Sisigou during Fate/Apocrypha) and Nine Lives, though he could possibly have several more considering his 12 Labors, like the pelt of Nemian Lion, be able to use the speed of The Golden Hind (which was famous for being able to Outrun an arrow in flight), or being able to summon the Stymphalian Birds.

4. His arsenal of weapons is unclear as he cannot summon any of those he used in life due to Mad Enhancement, and the Axe-Sword is just a thing the Einzberns jacked from a temple to summon him with. With all that in mind, I´ll try and go through them:

Saber: Traditionally Hercules used a club, but he was trained to perfection in the use of all weapons so he could surely use a sword, though it would not be a Noble Phantasm, possibly the Axe-Sword

Archer: Nasu confirmed in an interview that this would be the most powerful class for Hercules, who would be able to exploit his master archery and still fight off melee combatants well due to his insane stats. He may have access to the poison arrows but i doubt it, unless the Bow of the Hydra automatically poisons every arrow he shoots.

Rider: I´d definitely say that he´d maybe ride a Mare of Diomedes or the Erymanthian Boar, maybe a Pegasus if you stretch it.

Lancer: As Karna from Fate/Apocrypha shows (he´s an archer who was summoned as Lancer, but his weapon the Brahmastra changed after the fact to a spear to accomodate, and one of the scrapped servants, Mushashibo Benkei, fought with his bare hands and an assessment of farming tools), you don´t neccesarily need a spear to be a Lancer. Even so he could possibly use a magical javelin, given that Hercules would for certain be someone who would participate in the Olympics.

Assassin: You may be forgetting that Hercules not only snuck into Amazon society and posed incredibly convincingly as a woman, but outsmarted Atlas and many others. In fact most of his success comes from his combination of sneaking and brains and his colossal strength. This could qualify for Assassin-ness.

terraablaze
June 7th, 2013, 04:00 PM
Point, the reason Heracles was stated to be the strongest as an Archer was because Independent Action suited a hero who fought so much with his wits.

Mcjon01
June 7th, 2013, 05:06 PM
Nasu did say that he'd be exactly as huge if he wasn't a Berserker. He just wouldn't be quite as "hard", is all.

Tobias
June 7th, 2013, 05:13 PM
Nah, that's to easy. Gimme another set up.

HercFan
June 7th, 2013, 05:18 PM
Lets just clear up a couple of things before we go into this:

1. Hercules does not possess the ability to be a Caster.
That was mostly a joke.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7RosIoQisA


2. the Berserker class has heavily changed his physique, namely the elbow-growths and his odd skin color, as well as discoloring one of his eyes to a deep red. It may also impact his height, which is why he is so huge, but that´s too vague to confirm.
Hercules in his natural form
8488

Saber: Traditionally Hercules used a club, but he was trained to perfection in the use of all weapons so he could surely use a sword, though it would not be a Noble Phantasm, possibly the Axe-Sword
Didn't he use a sword to split Europa and Africa? That might be the sword that he uses as a Saber


Archer: Nasu confirmed in an interview that this would be the most powerful class for Hercules, who would be able to exploit his master archery and still fight off melee combatants well due to his insane stats. He may have access to the poison arrows but i doubt it, unless the Bow of the Hydra automatically poisons every arrow he shoots.
Ya sure about the the Hydra poison arrows but I do not remember King Arthur having Hyberbeam with Cailburn or Excalibur


Rider: I´d definitely say that he´d maybe ride a Mare of Diomedes or the Erymanthian Boar, maybe a Pegasus if you stretch it.
Actually Hercules as tame bunch of creature like the Cerberus


Lancer: As Karna from Fate/Apocrypha shows (he´s an Archer but his weapon the Brahmastra changed after the fact to a spear to accomodate, and one of the scrapped servants, Mushashibo Benkei, fought with his bare hands and an assessment of farming tools), you don´t neccesarily need a spear to be a Lancer. Even so he could possibly use a magical javelin, given that Hercules would for certain be someone who would participate in the Olympics.
Maybe he gets Zeus thunderbolt?


Assassin: You may be forgetting that Hercules not only snuck into Amazon society and posed incredibly convincingly as a woman, but outsmarted Atlas and many others. In fact most of his success comes from his combination of sneaking and brains and his colossal strength. This could qualify for Assassin-ness.
Ya Hercules did beat alot of his foes with wits well like them gigantes(maybe some form of Primate Murder?) that Gaea sent? Does these mean he beat Gaea as well?

ChronoReverse
June 8th, 2013, 12:15 AM
Heracles defeated Thanatos (death) via wrestling. That's pretty hardcore.

How he managed to masquerade as a hot amazon defies imagination though.

Fingolfin
June 8th, 2013, 01:34 AM
How he managed to masquerade as a hot amazon defies imagination though.

Cross-Dressing: EX

HercFan
June 8th, 2013, 02:16 AM
How he managed to masquerade as a hot amazon defies imagination though.
Sheer manliness. Hercules natural attracted even Lesbians ergo Lesbians would think he was woman since they are not attracted to men

BlackField
June 8th, 2013, 02:59 AM
Ya Hercules did beat alot of his foes with wits well like them gigantes(maybe some form of Primate Murder?) that Gaea sent? Does these mean he beat Gaea as well?
Do you think Herakles could have invaded Mount Olympus and defeating all the gods in one huge battle?

Kuradora
June 8th, 2013, 03:07 AM
Cross-Dressing: EX

Manly ancient Greek women, more likely.

Break
June 8th, 2013, 03:14 AM
Heracles defeated Thanatos (death) via wrestling. That's pretty hardcore.

How he managed to masquerade as a hot amazon defies imagination though.

http://theglorioblog.files.wordpress.com/2012/12/jojos-bizarre-adventure-12-mp4_snapshot_13-16_2012-12-26_00-33-21.jpg

Christemo
June 8th, 2013, 03:17 AM
Do you think Herakles could have invaded Mount Olympus and defeating all the gods in one huge battle?

If you don´t count Zeus, possibly. But Zeus is so invincibly broken that he could probably beat half a dozen Herculeses(Herculi?) at the same time with a single finger.

HercFan
June 8th, 2013, 03:32 AM
Do you think Herakles could have invaded Mount Olympus and defeating all the gods in one huge battle?
Depends on which myth we can accredit to Hercules. Depend if we take the myth of the Capture of Plyus as true. If so then Hercules as demi god was as strong as one of the big 12 gods(with Zeus being the exception).

- - - Updated - - -


If you don´t count Zeus, possibly. But Zeus is so invincibly broken that he could probably beat half a dozen Herculeses(Herculi?) at the same time with a single finger.
Ya Zeus was broken as fuckin Greek myth. It took Typhon to match Zeus and Zeus still won.

Kuradora
June 8th, 2013, 03:37 AM
http://theglorioblog.files.wordpress.com/2012/12/jojos-bizarre-adventure-12-mp4_snapshot_13-16_2012-12-26_00-33-21.jpg

Looks pretty hot.

Maybe not seeing the attraction is a German thing?

ChronoReverse
June 8th, 2013, 12:11 PM
If you don´t count Zeus, possibly. But Zeus is so invincibly broken that he could probably beat half a dozen Herculeses(Herculi?) at the same time with a single finger.

Pretty much this. Zeus can beat all the rest of the gods combined.

However, they needed Heracles' help (since he was mortal at that time) in their fight against the giants so he was a pretty bigshot.

I3uster
June 8th, 2013, 12:29 PM
Looks pretty hot.

Maybe not seeing the attraction is a German thing?
Considering he tries it on Germans and it fails, probably yes.

Seika
June 8th, 2013, 12:35 PM
But Zeus is so invincibly broken that he could probably beat half a dozen Herculeses(Herculi?) at the same time with a single finger.

Herakles is the plural of Herakles, unless I'm quite mistaken. And Hercules should also be the plural of Hercules, come to think of it.

Also, even speaking as a Classicist, the masturbating over power-levels in this thread re: Zeus and Herakles is at truly disturbing heights.

HercFan
June 8th, 2013, 01:31 PM
Also, even speaking as a Classicist, the masturbating over power-levels in this thread re: Zeus and Herakles is at truly disturbing heights.
Which make no sense Hercules is so weak compare to his legend in Nssuvesre

Yokathaking
June 8th, 2013, 02:26 PM
Well, Hercules is one of the few heroes which is nerf during the Grail War.

Christemo
June 8th, 2013, 04:52 PM
Well, Hercules is one of the few heroes which is nerf during the Grail War.

Gonna go ahead and mention that Gilgamesh´s physical abilities are also greatly nerfed (as far as we know, all we´ve seen of his impressive stats are the slapfight he had with Shirou), though Gate of Everything, Ea and Enkidu make more than up for it. In the Epic of Gilgamesh, he carried around huge throwing swords, and those werent even the weapons he used (IIRC, he used an axe and a sword that were even bigger).

the exact quote:

"They cast great daggers
Their blades weighted 120 pounds each
The crossguards of their handles weighted 30 pounds each
They carried great daggers worked with 30 pounds of gold
Gilgamesh and Enkidu bore ten times sixty pounds each.

RavingScholar
June 8th, 2013, 05:03 PM
Gonna go ahead and mention that Gilgamesh´s physical abilities are also greatly nerfed (as far as we know, all we´ve seen of his impressive stats are the slapfight he had with Shirou), though Gate of Everything, Ea and Enkidu make more than up for it. In the Epic of Gilgamesh, he carried around huge throwing swords, and those werent even the weapons he used (IIRC, he used an axe and a sword that were even bigger).

the exact quote:

"They cast great daggers
Their blades weighted 120 pounds each
The crossguards of their handles weighted 30 pounds each
They carried great daggers worked with 30 pounds of gold
Gilgamesh and Enkidu bore ten times sixty pounds each.
Gil does have Strength B, which isn't disrespectful I'd think. Plus, the Archer class isn't built for melee combat (despite what EMIYA prefers), so the container itself would probably lessen his Strength (just my speculation, of course). Of course, his fight with Shirou doesn't really do him any favors in the physical abilities department, unless Shirou truly was fighting at the level of a Servant (between Reinforcement and the swords' memories helping, I suppose he could have been, of course).

ItsaRandomUsername
June 8th, 2013, 05:57 PM
Which make no sense Hercules is so weak compare to his legend in Nssuvesre

BREAKING NEWS: SERVANTS ARE WEAKER THAN WHEN THEY WERE ALIVE

Hen_Ichi
June 8th, 2013, 06:09 PM
^ Wait. Wut?

MetallicMask
June 8th, 2013, 06:11 PM
That was mostly a joke.
Ya sure about the the Hydra poison arrows but I do not remember King Arthur having Hyberbeam with Cailburn or Excalibur


Malory mentions Excalibur emitting a blinding light: "thenne he drewe his swerd Excalibur, but it was so breyght in his enemyes eyen that it gaf light lyke thirty torchys."

Knick
June 8th, 2013, 07:05 PM
^ Wait. Wut?

The most powerful servants are actually weaker then they were in life, like Saber, Gil, Herk.

Some on the other hand probably get stronger due to gaining NPs based on their life, like Iskander

Kuradora
June 8th, 2013, 07:10 PM
Considering he tries it on Germans and it fails, probably yes.

Thank you for explaining the joke.

Petrikow
June 8th, 2013, 07:35 PM
The most powerful servants are actually weaker then they were in life, like Saber, Gil, Herk.

Some on the other hand probably get stronger due to gaining NPs based on their life, like Iskander

He got to summon his army for a massive amount of Prana instead of... having them around all the time?

How does that make him stronger!?

Knick
June 8th, 2013, 07:43 PM
He got to summon his army for a massive amount of Prana instead of... having them around all the time?

How does that make him stronger!?

Cause he can't bring his army with him on vacation.

But then he realizes he likes the country he visits so he chooses to take it he will have all his bros ready to back him up.

Petrikow
June 8th, 2013, 07:47 PM
Cause he can't bring his army with him on vacation.

But then he realizes he likes the country he visits so he chooses to take it he will have all his bros ready to back him up.

He was at war for almost 10 years.

Vacations wasn't something he did.

Siriel
June 8th, 2013, 08:17 PM
He was at war for almost 10 years.

Vacations wasn't something he did.

You forget that the entire point of his conquest was to find the ultimate vacation spot.

Petrikow
June 8th, 2013, 08:30 PM
You forget that the entire point of his conquest was to find the ultimate vacation spot.

You forget that Alexander was much like the typical cartoon villain.

Once he had conquered all of Persia he went into his lair in order to plot out more plans for World Conquest.

If he had conquered the ultimate vacation spot, he would've probably just been mean and disallowed people from having vacations there.

Then plotted to take over the moon or something, since he already took over the entire planet at that point.

Luckily our hero, the common cold, saved us from this monster of a man.

Christemo
June 8th, 2013, 08:39 PM
He got to summon his army for a massive amount of Prana instead of... having them around all the time?

How does that make him stronger!?

Because summoning them transforms them all into Servant-level warriors and confines the opponent in however big the Ionina Hetairoi bubble is.

terraablaze
June 8th, 2013, 08:49 PM
They don't transform into Servant level warriors, they already were that level. Some of them are so powerful they are nerfed and don't get their Noble Phantasms they would normally have. And Ionian Hetairoi is probably the size of a planet because that's how Reality Marbles work.

Zenieth
June 8th, 2013, 08:49 PM
Didn't it mention that they were all Servant level due to them all actually being servants?

Christemo
June 8th, 2013, 08:49 PM
Gil does have Strength B, which isn't disrespectful I'd think. Plus, the Archer class isn't built for melee combat (despite what EMIYA prefers), so the container itself would probably lessen his Strength (just my speculation, of course). Of course, his fight with Shirou doesn't really do him any favors in the physical abilities department, unless Shirou truly was fighting at the level of a Servant (between Reinforcement and the swords' memories helping, I suppose he could have been, of course).

I get that, Archer is not ideal for Melee but considering GARcher´s impressive feat of KILLING HALF OF HERCULES`S LIFES, I´m gonna go ahead and say his physical stats should be, if accurately portrayed like in the epic, somewhere in the A+´s considering Gilgamesh knocked out the Humbaba, a montrous fire-breathing giant and basically the strongest non-Bull of Heaven monster in Mesopotanian myth, IN A SINGLE PUNCH, and he later cut apart the Bull of Heaven with ease.

Petrikow
June 8th, 2013, 08:53 PM
No, no. They were already "Servant-level" all by their own, since they are all Heroic Spirits.

In fact, Alex, by having to summon them with his own ability, actually limits them, since they cannot use their Noble Phantasms. (http://forums.nrvnqsr.com/showthread.php/10-Questions-questions-and-more-questions-%28read-the-bloody-OP%29?p=674808&viewfull=1#post674808)

See? It all adds up to the fact that he was stronger alive.

Christemo
June 8th, 2013, 08:55 PM
No, no. They were already "Servant-level" all by their own, since they are all Heroic Spirits.

In fact, Alex, by having to summon them with his own ability, actually limits them, since they cannot use their Noble Phantasms. (http://forums.nrvnqsr.com/showthread.php/10-Questions-questions-and-more-questions-%28read-the-bloody-OP%29?p=674808&viewfull=1#post674808)

See? It all adds up to the fact that he was stronger alive.

Welp, guess i was wrong on that, i went up and checked the wiki and it said the same, so i guess its time to stop blabbering.

Petrikow
June 8th, 2013, 08:56 PM
Actually, using the Wiki might be why you are wrong so often.

Granted they've gotten better lately, as much as I hate to say it.

Christemo
June 8th, 2013, 08:58 PM
Actually, using the Wiki might be why you are wrong so often.

Granted they've gotten better lately, as much as I hate to say it.

I dont get why people say that but sure, we´ll go with that. It does have a lot of non-confirmed fluff now and then but meh, its easier than looking up some obscure but actually accurate translation in the dark corners of the internet.

Petrikow
June 8th, 2013, 08:59 PM
I dont get why people say that but sure, we´ll go with that. It does have a lot of non-confirmed fluff now and then but meh, its easier than looking up some obscure but actually accurate translation in the dark corners of the internet.

The sacrifices we must endure in order to win E-peen contests on the internet are harsh. The life-style of GD does not suit most, thin-skinned men.

Christemo
June 8th, 2013, 09:00 PM
The sacrifices we must endure in order to win E-peen contests on the internet are harsh. The life-style of GD does not suit most, thin-skinned men.

I work public service, I have thicker skin than Karna, Siegfried and Hercules combined.

Kelnish
June 8th, 2013, 09:03 PM
I dont get why people say that but sure, we´ll go with that. It does have a lot of non-confirmed fluff now and then but meh, its easier than looking up some obscure but actually accurate translation in the dark corners of the internet.

Yes. The dark corners of the internet. Two threads up, or down, I'm not sure where it is in relation to this thread right now. So obscure and well-hidden.

Christemo
June 8th, 2013, 09:04 PM
Yes. The dark corners of the internet. Two threads up, or down, I'm not sure where it is in relation to this thread right now. So obscure and well-hidden.

Its 3 in the morning, i slept 3 hours last night coz i had to get up early to celebrate my little brother´s birthday and i worked 7 hours today. I dont even care anymore, dude.

terraablaze
June 8th, 2013, 09:06 PM
It's like there's a forum just below General Discussion titled Translation.

Christemo
June 8th, 2013, 09:10 PM
It's like there's a forum just below General Discussion titled Translation.

http://s3.amazonaws.com/kym-assets/photos/images/newsfeed/000/154/912/berneydidnotread.gif?1318992465http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/147/193/130927615839.gifhttp://weknowmemes.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/didnt-read-lol.gif

Petrikow
June 8th, 2013, 09:11 PM
Live demonstration of the hardships GD inflicts upon those unprepared for it.

Christemo
June 8th, 2013, 09:12 PM
Live demonstration of the hardships GD inflicts upon those unprepared for it.

Thanks to you fucks i have to see a psychologist ;_;

Rockxas
June 8th, 2013, 10:01 PM
Somebody should really ask Nasu how Hercules should be summoned in order to become assassin, what with assassins usually being Hassan-i Sabbah as per the system itself...

Also, inb4 TypeWannabe gets here to fight the OP to death over the title of Herc's biggest fan.

Mellon
June 8th, 2013, 10:02 PM
Somebody should really ask Nasu how Hercules should be summoned in order to become assassin, what with assassins usually being Hassan-i Sabbah as per the system itself...

Also, inb4 TypeWannabe gets here to fight the OP to death over the title of Herc's biggest fan.

Where is Spin with that Herc!Assassin image?

Petrikow
June 8th, 2013, 10:03 PM
Mcjon once suggested that it should be through the same way as Hinokage with his Unknown Hero from Medaka Box becomes invisible. (look it up)

It has since become firmly entrenched in my mind as the only way Assassin Herakles should work.

Rockxas
June 8th, 2013, 10:08 PM
Herc's presence is so awesome and imposing that people deny he exists as a self-defense mechanism, and don't perceive him because of it? I'd be down with that.

LoyaltL
June 8th, 2013, 10:26 PM
Wasn't it said that Nasu actually intended Hercules to be the 'Strongest Servant Eva!' but didn't go through with it because it would be too mainstream?

(Just confirming it)

HercFan
June 8th, 2013, 10:50 PM
Wasn't it said that Nasu actually intended Hercules to be the 'Strongest Servant Eva!' but didn't go through with it because it would be too mainstream?

(Just confirming it)
That would explain alot. But Karna good match or exceed Hercules Legend

LoyaltL
June 8th, 2013, 10:52 PM
Most well known in terms of area is definitely Hercules' legend.

But most well known in terms of number of people knowing it can be either one.

Petrikow
June 8th, 2013, 10:54 PM
Wasn't it said that Nasu actually intended Hercules to be the 'Strongest Servant Eva!' but didn't go through with it because it would be too mainstream?

(Just confirming it)

Something like "Herakles is the strongest hero everybody knows, while Gilgamesh is the strongest hero nobody knows".

HercFan
June 8th, 2013, 11:02 PM
Most well known in terms of area is definitely Hercules' legend.

But most well known in terms of number of people knowing it can be either one.
Well meant in feats. That Karna match or exceed Hercules feats

- - - Updated - - -


Something like "Herakles is the strongest hero everybody knows, while Gilgamesh is the strongest hero nobody knows".
That just make no sense. Hell he not even not first king of Uruk Nimrod was(I think could be confusing for Sargon)

LoyaltL
June 8th, 2013, 11:05 PM
Well, I'll say Karna. While his 'feats' itself might not be much, but living a life like that is a MAJOR feat in itself.

Petrikow
June 8th, 2013, 11:06 PM
Nimrod is only observed in the Bible, which was written after The Epic of Gilgamesh.

Gilgamesh's status as the "original" is because he is not the first king or whatever, but rather that he is the star of the first legend and thus the first hero.


Well, I'll say Karna. While his 'feats' itself might not be much, but living a life like that is a MAJOR feat in itself.

His blows made Krishna remark that they could move the entire weight of the universe and that without Krishna's Divine Protection, Arjuna would've been fucked.

Siriel
June 8th, 2013, 11:07 PM
That just make no sense. Hell he not even not first king of Uruk Nimrod was(I think could be confusing for Sargon)

Which changes what as to his status as the oldest and strongest hero?

Not to mention, Type-Moon Gilgamesh =/= Real Myth Gilgamesh.

LoyaltL
June 8th, 2013, 11:14 PM
His blows made Krishna remark that they could move the entire weight of the universe and that without Krishna's Divine Protection, Arjuna would've been fucked.

Well, I meant something similar to the '12 labors'.

RavingScholar
June 9th, 2013, 12:03 AM
I get that, Archer is not ideal for Melee but considering GARcher´s impressive feat of KILLING HALF OF HERCULES`S LIFES, I´m gonna go ahead and say his physical stats should be, if accurately portrayed like in the epic, somewhere in the A+´s considering Gilgamesh knocked out the Humbaba, a montrous fire-breathing giant and basically the strongest non-Bull of Heaven monster in Mesopotanian myth, IN A SINGLE PUNCH, and he later cut apart the Bull of Heaven with ease.
He killed half of Herc's lives by borrowing from his swords' abilities like Shirou did to fight Gilgamesh. Plus he was within UBW, so he had every sword he could ever want at the tip of his fingers. Archer pulled out all of his stops and managed to kill Herc six times, while Gil without even trying obliterated Herc by spamming GoB.

The Archer class Gilgamesh (as opposed to Saber class or Lancer class, since he could conceivably do those too) focuses on raining sharp hell down on his enemies while smirking and berating them. He just doesn't need as much strength than if he were a melee class, and even without needing that much Strength his Strength is still B; as Saber, it would conceivably be A or higher, as befitting his deeds. (But speaking of deeds, Hercules' greatest feat to my knowledge is replacing Atlas' duty of holding up the sky for a little bit. He was able to hold up the entire sky, and while that probably can't be quantified I'd say it's pretty damn high.)

Now I know I pretty much repeated myself, but it's because that's what I think and your previous post didn't convince me otherwise. This post probably won't convince you either, so I'd say we can just agree to disagree and say that Gil is awesome no matter the class.

ChronoReverse
June 9th, 2013, 01:50 AM
His blows made Krishna remark that they could move the entire weight of the universe and that without Krishna's Divine Protection, Arjuna would've been fucked.

Herakles was holding the Heavens and the Earth apart. This isnt even spiking his strength in his blows.

Fakessassin
June 9th, 2013, 01:57 AM
Just for clarification sakes, in the Fate route where Archer kills Hercules six times, this is without UBW right? While it would certainly make more sense that he did it with UBW ala the anime, he just sword fights Hercules to death, didn't he?

Knick
June 9th, 2013, 02:12 AM
In the fate route we are not given any specifics other then how many times he killed Herc, though it would make the most sense for him to use UBW since in melee he would get stomped so hard its not funny just due to stat differences.

Kuradora
June 9th, 2013, 02:20 AM
In the fate route we are not given any specifics other then how many times he killed Herc, though it would make the most sense for him to use UBW since in melee he would get stomped so hard its not funny just due to stat differences.

Wouldn't Ilya have noted that Archer used a Reality Marble if he did, though? I find it more likely that Archer shaved off so many of Heracles' lives with his Eye of the Mind and the different swords that he could trace while wounded.

Siriel
June 9th, 2013, 02:22 AM
The only thing Ilya says is "Who was he?", which would fit in just fine with him using a Reality Marble.

mAc Chaos
June 9th, 2013, 02:26 AM
Plus we saw in UBW route what happens when Archer tries to use Caladbolg and such as a BP. Hercules tanks it and gives 0 fucks.

Kuradora
June 9th, 2013, 02:27 AM
The only thing Ilya says is "Who was he?", which would fit in just fine with him using a Reality Marble.

I'm pretty sure she'd be more disturbed by an Archer class servant using thaumaturgy that approaches true magic than a simple "Who was he?". She was shocked at his taking six lives. More than that, Heracles laments not being able to match sword techniques, not wondering what ridiculous magic made him die so much. I'd say that it's pretty clear that Archer didn't use UBW to win.

BlackField
June 9th, 2013, 02:33 AM
No, no. They were already "Servant-level" all by their own, since they are all Heroic Spirits.

In fact, Alex, by having to summon them with his own ability, actually limits them, since they cannot use their Noble Phantasms. (http://forums.nrvnqsr.com/showthread.php/10-Questions-questions-and-more-questions-%28read-the-bloody-OP%29?p=674808&viewfull=1#post674808)

See? It all adds up to the fact that he was stronger alive.
Nah, the majority of them are wraiths.
奈須:いや、あそこで固有結界にいる英霊たちが全員、「時間を稼ぐのはいいが、別に、あれを倒してしまって も構わんのだろう?」ってやったらよか ったんだよ。

奈須:王の軍勢の兵士たちは英雄であって英霊ではないので、超能力は持ってないのじゃ。それでも化け物みた いに強いメンツだけど。

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Just for clarification sakes, in the Fate route where Archer kills Hercules six times, this is without UBW right? While it would certainly make more sense that he did it with UBW ala the anime, he just sword fights Hercules to death, didn't he?
If anything it would make less sense. UBW costs a lot, BPs cost a lot and all the attacks inside UBW won't even hurt Herakles without being used as a BP.

RavingScholar
June 9th, 2013, 02:34 AM
Augh, the runes, they burn! The goggles, they do nothing!

Fakessassin
June 9th, 2013, 02:46 AM
Yeah, that's the major crux of the matter. Archer really got nerfed bad by Saber in Fate, and therefore, could not even deploy UBW. Still ignoring the mana cost, it is easier to believe that Archer with UBW could take on Berserker six times, then one without UBW.

Kuradora
June 9th, 2013, 02:50 AM
Yeah, that's the major crux of the matter. Archer really got nerfed bad by Saber in Fate, and therefore, could not even deploy UBW. Still ignoring the mana cost, it is easier to believe that Archer with UBW could take on Berserker six times, then one without UBW.

Whether it's easier to believe or not, the fact is, he didn't use it. Reality Marbles are so rare that it would have been mentioned by the characters in scene if he did.

mAc Chaos
June 9th, 2013, 02:52 AM
Whether it's easier to believe or not, the fact is, he didn't use it. Reality Marbles are so rare that it would have been mentioned by the characters in scene if he did.
We missed the entire scene. She could have been surprised about it as anything during the fact.

Using individual BPs would probably just get swatted aside by Hercules. It's not like he has time to go long range and do something ridiculous.

BlackField
June 9th, 2013, 03:03 AM
Yeah, that's the major crux of the matter. Archer really got nerfed bad by Saber in Fate, and therefore, could not even deploy UBW. Still ignoring the mana cost, it is easier to believe that Archer with UBW could take on Berserker six times, then one without UBW.
I'm sorry but what are you on about? Explain yourself.

mAc Chaos
June 9th, 2013, 03:03 AM
He spent all of Fate recovering from Saber almost cutting him in half. There was nothing about UBW being undeployable though.

Siriel
June 9th, 2013, 03:10 AM
Whether it's easier to believe or not, the fact is, he didn't use it. Reality Marbles are so rare that it would have been mentioned by the characters in scene if he did.
Except that the only character present was Ilya, whose reaction we only saw after the fight was over and whose statement indicated nothing except that she had no idea who he was to be that powerful.

And the outside-game part where this is Fate, so naturally they're not going to show the player Archer's greatest move when his route is the next one.


There is no "the fact is", unless you have an interview Nasu confirms the way he fought Berserker.

mAc Chaos
June 9th, 2013, 03:13 AM
If we asked Nasu he would probably just have it match the anime anyway since he liked how it was portrayed there. He went so far as to put in the reinforced Kanshou and Bakuya into canon.

Obsidian Pharaoh
June 9th, 2013, 03:17 AM
Sorry to bring up an older topic in the thread but...
Gonna go ahead and mention that Gilgamesh´s physical abilities are also greatly nerfed (as far as we know, all we´ve seen of his impressive stats are the slapfight he had with Shirou), though Gate of Everything, Ea and Enkidu make more than up for it. In the Epic of Gilgamesh, he carried around huge throwing swords, and those werent even the weapons he used (IIRC, he used an axe and a sword that were even bigger).

the exact quote:

"They cast great daggers
Their blades weighted 120 pounds each
The crossguards of their handles weighted 30 pounds each
They carried great daggers worked with 30 pounds of gold
Gilgamesh and Enkidu bore ten times sixty pounds each.Are you telling me that Nasu Gil's sword-storming is actually based on real legend?! O_O

Someone knowledgeable plz confirm this. I'm in too much shock right now.

Siriel
June 9th, 2013, 03:20 AM
Did you doubt that Type-Moon was 100% based on real facts?

Seika
June 9th, 2013, 03:24 AM
That's a forging scene to the best of my recollection. 'Cast' as in 'made', not as in 'threw'.

BlackField
June 9th, 2013, 03:46 AM
He spent all of Fate recovering from Saber almost cutting him in half. There was nothing about UBW being undeployable though.
Is there any actual evidence to state that he was still injured? By that point in HF he was throwing Assassin around like he wasn't there and fighting equally with Medusa in the hallway. Not to mention the scene, in fate, itself says he was at his mightest(well it could mean his might at the time).

Also BPs are expensive, we know that from UBW, the idea that he could break a ridiculous amount of objects that are designed to take large amounts of magical energy seems weird to me.

mAc Chaos
June 9th, 2013, 03:57 AM
Is there any actual evidence to state that he was still injured? By that point in HF he was throwing Assassin around like he wasn't there and fighting equally with Medusa in the hallway. Not to mention the scene, in fate, itself says he was at his mightest(well it could mean his might at the time).

Also BPs are expensive, we know that from UBW, the idea that he could break a ridiculous amount of objects that are designed to take large amounts of magical energy seems weird to me.
Well to me, if he is weakened, it makes more sense to use UBW than BP spam. BP spam is like pure brute force. UBW at least lets him use all his projections for free.

I don't think there was anything saying he was still injured at that exact moment, but there wasn't anything saying he was healed either.

Kuradora
June 9th, 2013, 04:02 AM
Except that the only character present was Ilya, whose reaction we only saw after the fight was over and whose statement indicated nothing except that she had no idea who he was to be that powerful.

And the outside-game part where this is Fate, so naturally they're not going to show the player Archer's greatest move when his route is the next one.


There is no "the fact is", unless you have an interview Nasu confirms the way he fought Berserker.

To the last point: Fair enough.

http://lparchive.org/Fatestay-night/Update%2075/8-F11-08-13.jpg
On the other hand, why would Berserker not think about Archer using magic and instead about his swordplay if he'd used UBW?

BlackField
June 9th, 2013, 04:03 AM
UBW is expensive and nothing in it will do anything to Herakles because of rank degeneration.

http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/3264/2f110803.jpg
While you can interpret this to say it was just all his might at the time, it seems like if that was Nasu's goal he would have said that in another manner. I just find it hard to believe Archer didn't use everything he had against Herakles and took 6 lives. It already seem anomalous considering how poorly he did against Lancer and he was at max there.

mAc Chaos
June 9th, 2013, 04:06 AM
"All of their might" just means that they put in 100% effort. 100% of whatever they had at the time. That kind of phrasing says nothing about Archer's power in relation to how much he originally had.

Of course he used everything he had. That doesn't mean he was at 100% though.

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And as expensive as UBW might be, he managed to use it after getting totally exhausted fighting Lancer (and without any Master to boot) in UBW route. And surely he was in better condition in Fate.

BlackField
June 9th, 2013, 04:09 AM
"All of their might" just means that they put in 100% effort. 100% of whatever they had at the time. That kind of phrasing says nothing about Archer's power in relation to how much he originally had.

Of course he used everything he had. That doesn't mean he was at 100% though.
Thats your interpretation. It seems like a rather strange way of saying it though.

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And as expensive as UBW might be, he managed to use it after getting totally exhausted fighting Lancer (and without any Master to boot) in UBW route. And surely he was in better condition in Fate.
For like 10 secs. He would still have to break every sword that he wanted to use against Herakles inside UBW. So its like doubly draining. Seems to me it would be better for him to use that superbrain of his to manipulate the easily understandable and predictable of the raging monster in front of him.

mAc Chaos
June 9th, 2013, 04:10 AM
That is the standard interpretation of the phrase. Of course it is my interpretation. And yours is yours. But this would be like reading "he ate lunch" and thinking its a strange interpretation to think it means lunch.

BlackField
June 9th, 2013, 04:11 AM
That is the standard interpretation of the phrase. Of course it is my interpretation. And yours is yours. But this would be like reading "he ate lunch" and thinking its a strange interpretation to think it means lunch.
Hardly. If someone does something at their max, I assume its their max not max-10% because of conditions.

And the lunch thing is one silly metaphor.

mAc Chaos
June 9th, 2013, 04:14 AM
For like 10 secs. He would still have to break every sword that he wanted to use against Herakles inside UBW. So its like doubly draining. Seems to me it would be better for him to use that superbrain of his to manipulate the easily understandable and predictable of the raging monster in front of him.
You mean by using BPs? Well its possible. I just don't think that screenshot tells us anything.

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Hardly. If someone does something at their max, I assume its their max not max-10% because of conditions.

And the lunch thing is one silly metaphor.
Well, I don't know what to tell you. You're rejecting the plain meaning of the phrase.

Where are you from? Maybe it's just not coming across clearly.

BlackField
June 9th, 2013, 04:19 AM
You mean by using BPs? Well its possible. I just don't think that screenshot tells us anything.
I sort of said that from the beginning.

And I'm not sure how Emiya would hurt Herakles without BPs, rank degeneration and everything. The only other option I can think of would involve him standing 2 feet away from Herakles and trading blows using the memories of guys with A rank strength but I doubt that would work for any extended time, nor do I see how UBW would be helpful with that strategy.

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Well, I don't know what to tell you. You're rejecting the plain meaning of the phrase.

Where are you from? Maybe it's just not coming across clearly.
I'd say you are too. Its an ambiguous statement. Its mean everything they have which can mean everything they have on them or everything in total. I'd take the latter because "all their might" is a pretty strong statement combined with everything else we know of Archer's abilities and Herakles'.

Siriel
June 9th, 2013, 04:19 AM
I sort of said that from the beginning.

And I'm not sure how Emiya would hurt Herakles without BPs, rank degeneration and everything. The only other option I can think of would involve him standing 2 feet away from Herakles and trading blows using the memories of guys with A rank strength but I doubt that would work for any extended time, nor do I see how UBW would be helpful with that strategy.

Well, while I'm in the "He used UBW" camp, it's actually true that whatever strategy he used...didn't work for an extended time, given that he died.

mAc Chaos
June 9th, 2013, 04:19 AM
Yeah the rank degeneration is the big problem here. Although it wouldn't be the first time something didn't make sense that was left up in the air.

Siriel
June 9th, 2013, 04:20 AM
Yeah the rank degeneration is the big problem here. Although it wouldn't be the first time something didn't make sense that was left up in the air.

Pfff, six lives in one hit, no big deal.

mAc Chaos
June 9th, 2013, 04:22 AM
I'd say you are too. Its an ambiguous statement. Its mean everything they have which can mean everything they have on them or everything in total. I'd take the latter because "all their might" is a pretty strong statement combined with everything else we know of Archer's abilities and Herakles'.
Well, let me give you an example. Let's look at sentences like this:

"The warrior was tired, thirsty, and hungry. But one last enemy remained. With all of his might, he plunged his sword into the soldier's chest."

Obviously that isn't saying that he's suddenly as capable as if he was fully rested. It just means he gave it his all.

But if you want to stick with it, fine. It's not like it proves anything either way.

Break
June 9th, 2013, 04:25 AM
Somebody should really ask Nasu how Hercules should be summoned in order to become assassin, what with assassins usually being Hassan-i Sabbah as per the system itself...

Also, inb4 TypeWannabe gets here to fight the OP to death over the title of Herc's biggest fan.

Every Assassin Nasu wrote aside from TA was not a Hassan, i guess he just thought "eh i said this, but its kind of very limiting and also kind of dumb in relation to the Grailsystem itself, i gues ill just silently ignore it and hope my fans dont get too angry."

mAc Chaos
June 9th, 2013, 04:26 AM
It just fits into Nasu's "state a rule so I can break it and look cool" standard operating procedure.

BlackField
June 9th, 2013, 04:26 AM
The thing is it implies it was Herakles at his max too; aligning both being at their absolute max not one being slightly below max but fighting with everything he's got vs guy at absolute max.

Its pretty ambiguous but I remember being shown a statement saying that Archer wasn't injured and that was the closest I could find, I remember everyone else in the discussion going "oh so Archer wasn't injured", but don't believe me because I couldn't source it and if that was the closest it may have been it and that is ambiguous.

Overall, a stupid thing for me to bring up. Just sick of people going Archer can defeat Herakles with one arm tied behind his back if he wasn't injured(and yes, I've heard people say this)

Siriel
June 9th, 2013, 04:28 AM
Clearly Archer's maximum power was in cooking, so he had a cook-off with Herakles. But alas, Herakles was simply too swift in making a meal and Archer exploded from shame.

That's why Herakles was sad they hadn't traded sword techniques.

mAc Chaos
June 9th, 2013, 04:29 AM
It is probably because of the whole "Archer can beat Gilgamesh. Gilgamesh is the strongest. Gilgamesh beat Berserker. Therefore Archer can beat Berserker" logic.

Break
June 9th, 2013, 04:29 AM
Just for clarification sakes, in the Fate route where Archer kills Hercules six times, this is without UBW right? While it would certainly make more sense that he did it with UBW ala the anime, he just sword fights Hercules to death, didn't he?

didnt Nasu go "the fight went just like in the anime" after it was made because he found Kanshou & Byakuya Overedge so cool?

mAc Chaos
June 9th, 2013, 04:30 AM
Yeah I remember something like that.

Kelnish
June 9th, 2013, 05:19 AM
Kanshou & Bakuya Overedge
User: Archer

A version of Kanshou & Bakuya used by Archer in the undescribed battle against Berserker in Fate route. Using reinforcement magecraft, the blades have been completely transformed into long swords.

By the way, while the story of Ganjiang and Moye has survived to this day, there is no mention of what kind of swords they actually were. The assumption is that they were cast swords, as was common in that time period. Even their shape is a mystery, as the only known description of the swords simply says that Ganjiang had a black tortoise shell pattern and Moye had a white wave pattern.


Thank you drunkmcjon, you are truly the Batman.

Christemo
June 9th, 2013, 08:22 AM
Well meant in feats. That Karna match or exceed Hercules feats

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That just make no sense. Hell he not even not first king of Uruk Nimrod was(I think could be confusing for Sargon)

Isn´t Nimrod the leader of the Sentinels in the Marvel Multiverse?

HercFan
June 9th, 2013, 01:03 PM
Isn´t Nimrod the leader of the Sentinels in the Marvel Multiverse?

Yes
8496


Also it does seem kinda silly that anyone can take Hercules in HtH comabt. Also would Gae Buidhe block or denies Hercules regen?

Christemo
June 9th, 2013, 01:42 PM
Yes
8496


Also it does seem kinda silly that anyone can take Hercules in HtH comabt. Also would Gae Buidhe block or denies Hercules regen?

Diarmuid can´t hurt Hercules at all. He doesnt have A-rank strength or something equivelant of that (like Karna´s B-strength combined with his ridiculous skills and a super-broken Noble Phantasm = A-rank strength in effect)

kohaku
June 16th, 2013, 03:08 AM
I am a giant Hercules fan, as you can see from my user name. So I am kinda wondering what Hercules would be like as other Servant type?

Saber? Would he keep Nine Lives and Godhand? What sword would he use?

Archer? Does the Hydra poison arrows count as the Nine Lives NP or would it be another NP?

Rider? What creature would Hercules ride? Cerberus? Mares of Diomedes? Would he summon his twin brother Iphicles? Or would he have an NP that has to do something with the Argonauts?

Lancer? Does even have a famous lance/spear that he uses?

Assassin? Big guy that sneaks up on people?

Caster? Muscle Wizard?





I am researching about Type-Moon Servant very long ago, and trying to creat their reality Servant status ( based on their real legend). I can say that Hercules is one among the most difficult heroes for you to researching. He's very very very very very famous, and we have too many stories about him ( we can find his status even beside Buddha in Indian).

Until now, I still can't find out all of his skill. this is list of Hercules's NP, based on his legend which I have found out until now ( sorry for my terrible English grammar):


The NP which he will hold in any Servant class:


- Hephaistos’s armor: ( Used in all Servant class)
its ability: unknown
Hephaistos God give him this armor when he's eighteen.


- Athena's robe:
ability: unknown
Athena God give him this robe when he's eighteen.

- Nemea skin's robe:
ability: protect himself against any physical attack, even it is Apollo's arrow.
He take this robe after killed Nemea lion in his first labour.

- Athena's gong:
ability: its voice strong enough to force Stymphalian Birds flying from the forest.
Athena give this gong to him in the six labour.

- The flagon which hold Medusa's ash:
Ability: It can't turning anyone become stone statue, but it still can made the enemy fell in confusing and scaring.
Athena's gift.

And these other NP ( class only):

Saber class only:

- Nemea forest ’s club :
Hercules standard weapon, very many monster be killed by this weapon. Some other record writed that this is Hephaistos's gift.

- Hermer's sword:
the sword which Hermer give to Hercules when he's eighteen. May be is same which weapon had slain Medusa - Kisibi.


Archer class only:

- Apollo’s bow: Hercules's another standard weapon. His arrow had combined with Hydra's poison blood. Anyone be shoted by his arrow will be die, even Hercules himself.


Rider class only:


- Arion : white horse which have black hair. It is son of Poseidon and Demeter ( he raping his sister): ability: unknown

- HIPPOI TROIADES : Troy city's divine chariot, which is gift from Zeus. It is chariot lead by 12 thunder horses ( alexander's bull isn't anything when comparing with this chariot). Hercules take this chariot after his war with Troy. The chariot "they would play along the grain-giving tilled land would pass along the tassels of corn and not break the divine yield, but again, when they played across the sea’s wide ridges they would run the edge of the wave where it breaks on the grey salt water".

still have very many other NP and Skill but I still can't find out it

Orange
June 16th, 2013, 09:51 AM
Well I admire your research, I haven't really read about most of the stuff you mentioned.

HercFan
June 18th, 2013, 08:54 PM
Would Gilgamesh even have those NP weapons and armors in his Gate of Babylon? Alot of them seem to be gift from the gods(Aegis of Athena) or items that Hercules made after slaying X monster(Nemean Pelt or Hydra Blood Bow and Arrows)

Lycodrake
June 18th, 2013, 09:01 PM
I'm waiting for Seika's commentary and critique/criticism of kohaku's NP ideas.

terraablaze
June 18th, 2013, 09:11 PM
Would Gilgamesh even have those NP weapons and armors in his Gate of Babylon? Alot of them seem to be gift from the gods(Aegis of Athena) or items that Hercules made after slaying X monster(Nemean Pelt or Hydra Blood Bow and Arrows)

There were probably phantasmal beasts like the Nemean lion and the hydra to make similar armaments and if he has Harpe which was given to Perseus by the gods then he hypothetically can have any and all other gods' gifts to mortals.

Lycodrake
June 18th, 2013, 09:19 PM
There were probably phantasmal beasts like the Nemean lion and the hydra to make similar armaments and if he has Harpe which was given to Perseus by the gods then he hypothetically can have any and all other gods' gifts to mortals.
So Herakles can have Pandora.
Ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha-
No seriously that is rather hilarious, remembering my Avenger Class profile for her.
And her name. :p

HercFan
June 18th, 2013, 09:20 PM
There were probably phantasmal beasts like the Nemean lion and the hydra to make similar armaments and if he has Harpe which was given to Perseus by the gods then he hypothetically can have any and all other gods' gifts to mortals.

The Nemean Lion and the Hydra both were godling creature(Typhon and Echidn). Only Humbaba seems to fit the godly creature in Gilgamesh myth

terraablaze
June 18th, 2013, 09:23 PM
I am almost positive the Hydra is classed as a Phantasmal beast in Nasuland in Heracles's side information. Not that it really matters. The point still stands that you can't restrain Gilgamesh's powerlevel by his myth hence him having anti dimensional refraction shields and other beasts with similar properties were probably around.

HercFan
June 18th, 2013, 09:31 PM
I am almost positive the Hydra is classed as a Phantasmal beast in Nasuland in Heracles's side information. Not that it really matters. The point still stands that you can't restrain Gilgamesh's powerlevel by his myth hence him having anti dimensional refraction shields and other beasts with similar properties were probably around.
But you can refrain Hercules power levels compare to his myth?

Siriel
June 18th, 2013, 09:43 PM
Sure you can. Just because one guy is stronger than the stories say doesn't mean they all are.

Beside, I'm not sure what exactly is so hard to get in "Gilgamesh is the most powerful, oldest and greatest hero that owns everything.".

Seika
June 18th, 2013, 10:03 PM
I am almost positive the Hydra is classed as a Phantasmal beast in Nasuland in Heracles's side information. Not that it really matters.

The Hydra is a Heroic Spirit itself [according to Strange Fake.]

terraablaze
June 18th, 2013, 10:20 PM
Oh right and Gilgamesh also has those Hindu god weapons. So yeah, just because it belonged to a god, doesn't mean Gilgamesh couldn't have the original. I guess after his reign a bunch of Divine Spirits hit up his treasury. Or at least made a copy based on what they heard.

HercFan
June 18th, 2013, 10:30 PM
Sure you can. Just because one guy is stronger than the stories say doesn't mean they all are.

Beside, I'm not sure what exactly is so hard to get in "Gilgamesh is the most powerful, oldest and greatest hero that owns everything.".
I guess. Just seem so weird to see Hercules being so weak compare to his legend. I mean Hercules lifted the Sky. Hercules split Europa and Africa apart. Ect...

BlackField
June 18th, 2013, 10:32 PM
Or any gods that occurred after his reign comes under that whole "he has anything that humans can potentially make" thing because the gods are made by humans and therefore their weapons are or some BS.

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I guess. Just seem so weird to see Hercules being so weak compare to his legend. I mean Hercules lifted the Sky. Hercules split Europa and Africa apart. Ect...
A nerfed version of Herakles managed to break a chain that can hold the gods. Just think about that.

Siriel
June 18th, 2013, 10:33 PM
One of the big differences in comparing the Herakles myth and Gilgamesh's story is that none of Herc's stuff actually happened in the Nasuverse, whereas Gilgamesh actually did kill the Bull of Heaven and such.

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A nerfed version of Herakles managed to break a chain that can hold the gods. Just think about that.

Also this, yeah. It's not like the guy is shown to be a wimp aside from lolcaliburn.

HercFan
June 18th, 2013, 10:42 PM
A nerfed version of Herakles managed to break a chain that can hold the gods. Just think about that.
I kinda expect that. He is Hercules even if he is massively nerf

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One of the big differences in comparing the Herakles myth and Gilgamesh's story is that none of Herc's stuff actually happened in the Nasuverse, whereas Gilgamesh actually did kill the Bull of Heaven and such.
Really? Hmm.... was that some where in the visual novel?

Seika
June 18th, 2013, 10:46 PM
I kinda expect that. He is Hercules even if he is massively nerf
You seriously masturbate to Herakles, don't you? Get a life.


Really? Hmm.... was that some where in the visual novel?
Herakles is fictional. (Probably. lolCM3).

I will take the time to make the point that both Diodorus (unsurprisingly) and Pseudo-Apollodorus (more interestingly) give tales wherein Herakles did not have to hold up the sky to complete the Labour of the golden apples.

Siriel
June 18th, 2013, 10:46 PM
Really? Hmm.... was that some where in the visual novel?

It's pretty much confirmed in CCC.

Basically anything said to be from the Age of Gods that comes up after Gilgamesh is fictional.

BlackField
June 18th, 2013, 10:48 PM
Well put it this way. Command seals are called borderline True Magic kinda stuff, Herakles is stronger than that. So he's got the strength of a high ranking NP which is pretty damn ridiculous. And considering it took 5 A rank gems to blow off just his head and just one gem would normally smush a servant if they don't have MR...

There's also a thing in CM3 which calls him fictional with Medusa. While Saber and Emiya were real.

Seika
June 18th, 2013, 10:48 PM
There are ways to take the CCC statements which don't mean that everything was fictional.

BlackField
June 18th, 2013, 10:49 PM
It's pretty much confirmed in CCC.

Basically anything said to be from the Age of Gods that comes up after Gilgamesh is fictional.
Goddamit Nasu. Goddamit.

Siriel
June 18th, 2013, 10:50 PM
There are ways to take the CCC statements which don't mean that everything was fictional.

How?

I mean, the Age of Gods basically ended in Gilgamesh's time. How can something "from the Age of Gods" that came after Gilgamesh be real?

HercFan
June 18th, 2013, 10:53 PM
It's pretty much confirmed in CCC.

Basically anything said to be from the Age of Gods that comes up after Gilgamesh is fictional.

If that were true then how did Gilgamesh even have the weapons of Hercules... if he is fictional than his weapon would be fictional?

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You seriously masturbate to Herakles, don't you? Get a life.

Its is in the name dude. But even then I do have a point. Lifting the sky and beating up gods does seem to be norm for Hercules.

Siriel
June 18th, 2013, 10:54 PM
If that were true then how did Gilgamesh even have the weapons of Hercules... if he is fictional than his weapon would be fictional?

The tale of the weapons of Hercules was based on something he owned if you look back far enough, would be the likely answer.

Seika
June 18th, 2013, 10:57 PM
How?

I mean, the Age of Gods basically ended in Gilgamesh's time. How can something "from the Age of Gods" that came after Gilgamesh be real?
It didn't all come crashing down at once - that's obvious, the gods are still jerking Gil around for much of his life. He causes the end, but it doesn't finish for however long you'd like the Age of the Gods to not finish for. Related is McJon's supposition that a transition of Ages, with resultant changes to the world, means that everything before is 'fictional' (insofar as it could not exist in modern times), despite it having happened back then.

BlackField
June 18th, 2013, 11:00 PM
If that were true then how did Gilgamesh even have the weapons of Hercules... if he is fictional than his weapon would be fictional?

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Its is in the name dude. But even then I do have a point. Lifting the sky and beating up gods does seem to be norm for Hercules.
There's some BS about how Gilgamesh has stuff that humans can potentially make or something. So as long as everything Herakles had humans can make, Gil should have them.

Also I'm pretty sure Seika is joking. Seika's like the gal who wanks Herakles the most.

^sounds about right.

Seika
June 18th, 2013, 11:03 PM
Also I'm pretty sure Seika is joking. Seika's like the gal who wanks Herakles the most.

Hell no. I put OP bits of his myths in where they're funny, but HercFan wants it all to be Nasu-canon in this slightly desperate and weird way. And I don't think has managed to make a post here yet which didn't involve Herakles.

Siriel
June 18th, 2013, 11:05 PM
It didn't all come crashing down at once - that's obvious, the gods are still jerking Gil around for much of his life. He causes the end, but it doesn't finish for however long you'd like the Age of the Gods to not finish for. Related is McJon's supposition that a transition of Ages, with resultant changes to the world, means that everything before is 'fictional' (insofar as it could not exist in modern times), despite it having happened back then.

It's flat-out stated that the "age of the primates" began at that point. The gods might've still been around, but it wasn't the Age of Gods anymore.

mAc Chaos
June 18th, 2013, 11:08 PM
Didn't we already get confirmation that Herakles and Medusa were fictional from the supplementary books.

BlackField
June 18th, 2013, 11:10 PM
Didn't we already get confirmation that Herakles and Medusa were fictional from the supplementary books.
I think there was some vagueness about that. Like they could've been fictional then born through belief, which does tie into what they say about Medusa being born by humanities wish for a perfect goddess.

mAc Chaos
June 18th, 2013, 11:12 PM
Well, someone also raised the point that if they were fictional, then you have to wonder if the other heroes touched on in their stories are also fictional. Which is practically all AoG folks.

BlackField
June 18th, 2013, 11:15 PM
I always hoped Saber was actually fictional and that the throne just made up some BS so as to explain why she wasn't in Avalon. It would've made no sense what so ever but just imagine the rage if Nasu said that(it would also explain Lancelot).

Seika
June 18th, 2013, 11:24 PM
It's flat-out stated that the "age of the primates" began at that point. The gods might've still been around, but it wasn't the Age of Gods anymore.

It's all present tense. This is happening, we're 'on the cusp', etc. etc. I think it's actually easier to support the long transition interpretation than this snap-over in Gil's time that you're thinking of.

Siriel
June 18th, 2013, 11:27 PM
Yes, it says that it's a progressive thing, the gods didn't just go "poof" one day. But this is the last line of that bit:

"In other words, this was the beginning of the age of the primates."

So unless there were two ages going on simultaneously, the Age of Gods itself had already ended at that point. Thus, anything after that point can't have happened during the Age of Gods.

mAc Chaos
June 18th, 2013, 11:38 PM
What about Lancelot?

BlackField
June 18th, 2013, 11:42 PM
What about Lancelot?
He was made up by some French guys hundreds of years after the first Arthurian legend came about. Basically the French weren't happy with Charlemagne and his round table and wanted to be part of the British legends and so they made a huge Gary Stu, that is best combatant and is so good at "ze love making" that he seduced the Queen of Britain.

Seika
June 18th, 2013, 11:57 PM
Yes, it says that it's a progressive thing, the gods didn't just go "poof" one day. But this is the last line of that bit:

"In other words, this was the beginning of the age of the primates."

So unless there were two ages going on simultaneously, the Age of Gods itself had already ended at that point. Thus, anything after that point can't have happened during the Age of Gods.

Matter of interpretation (and arguing over the interpretation of a translation is always dicey). But beginning can be first cause or a contributor rather than the literal event. For example, you always get people saying 'that was the beginning of our troubles' to some innocuous event. They aren't actually in trouble right there, but when the actual ramifications hit ...

HercFan
June 19th, 2013, 12:24 AM
Hell no. I put OP bits of his myths in where they're funny, but HercFan wants it all to be Nasu-canon in this slightly desperate and weird way. And I don't think has managed to make a post here yet which didn't involve Herakles.

While it is true that I do post alot about Hercules, not everything I post is about Hercules. Roughly 70 percent is about Hercules. But ya I am kinda out there

- - - Updated - - -


He was made up by some French guys hundreds of years after the first Arthurian legend came about. Basically the French weren't happy with Charlemagne and his round table and wanted to be part of the British legends and so they made a huge Gary Stu, that is best combatant and is so good at "ze love making" that he seduced the Queen of Britain.
Didn't Gawain originally have the same position as Lancelot? Only less sueish?

BlackField
June 19th, 2013, 12:27 AM
All heroes are Sues. Lancelot is just a French Sue that screwed up my British Sues.

Zenieth
June 19th, 2013, 01:02 AM
What's medea's status of existing? That should clear it up.

Milbunk
June 19th, 2013, 01:08 AM
Never mentioned, I'd like to say that she's real as not everything from the AoG can just be fiction, but there really wasn't anything I've seen that points towards one way or the other. (Maybe CCC but I'm waiting on that one.)

kohaku
June 19th, 2013, 07:50 AM
With Greek's history, they see Hercules is the ancestor who formed Sparta polis. That mean that " the first Sparta polis's leader" will be summoned as Hercules.

Why we have to trying to confirm that some heroes is really existed or not????

----------------------------------

believing or not, but this is real Medusa's Servant status, based on her story:


Strength: Unknown. But her hand is... Bronze.
Endurance: Unknown. But her skin full of horny scales which strong enough to against any of normal weapon ( We understand these are bronze weapon, in her age).
Agility: Unknown. But she have gold wing to flying. Yeah, she really can flying without Pegasus.
Mana: Unknown
Luck: Unknown. Be killed when still sleeping, by Zeus's son who have 5 NP from God. I don't known it mean she have poor luck or not

Skill:


Divinity:
Origin, Greek believe they ( Gorgons) is daughters of Phorkys and Keto. Their parents is sea god, who control " hidden dangers of the deep" and " dangers of the sea".

Symbol of Virgin:
Believe or not, Greek believed that Medusa's head ( and even only picture of her head) have powerful enough to weaken any of men. That is why Greek soldiers usually painting her head on ther shield. Every Greek maiden used her head to protect them

Sea storm Controlling:
As daughter of dangers sea gold, Greek actually believed they sisters are the symbol of " sea storms which driving ships to destruction upon the reefs". Actually, Euryale mean "she of the wide briny sea", Stheno mean " Strong" and Medusa mean " Guardian". Yeah, they sisters can creating storms and using them

NP:




Medusa: Mystic Eyes of Stone Transformation:

Too famous. I don't know why Nasu downrank it become her skill.

Gorgon’s blood: Libyan vipers:

When Perserus holding her head flying over Libia. Her blood had dropped on Libia ground, and " every drop of dark blood that fell from it to the ground produced a brood of these serpents". These viper very dangerous, " Even Paieon himself could not have saved the victim's life, even if the fangs had only grazed the skin".

That mean she can using her blood to creating something look like Marble Phantasm, " the sea of vipers" to attack enemy.


* PAIEON was the physician of the Olympian Gods. He healed their wounds when they were injured in battle. That mean these viper as dangerous as Hercules Hydra blood arrow.

Very easy to researching and creating Medusa's Servant status. Her story is short and simple, and don't have too many different story as same as Arthur or Hercules.

terraablaze
June 19th, 2013, 07:54 AM
The same reason he "downranks" Unlimited Blade Works by making it not a Noble Phantasm, Mystice Eyes don't qualify as Noble Phantasms. Same with Medea's spells, she needs a physical knife for her Noble Phantasm according to his rules.

BlackField
June 19th, 2013, 07:58 AM
Never mentioned, I'd like to say that she's real as not everything from the AoG can just be fiction, but there really wasn't anything I've seen that points towards one way or the other. (Maybe CCC but I'm waiting on that one.)
Well considering Medea is scared of Herakles because he was with the Argonauts...

I3uster
June 19th, 2013, 08:32 AM
On topic, I entered an RP on this site as Kayneth and because I wanted to be a dick I tried to get Herakles in the Lancer container. Consulted Seika for an eventual NP to fuck over Gilgamesh, and she gave me one. Might be interesting for you guys, hope this is okay, Seika.


Herakles is a difficult one for spears. He tends towards the bow, mainly, and there's a bit in Euripides' Herakles where someone accuses him of cowardice because he never arms himself with a spear to go down into proper battle. Still, I think there's one episode you can make use of. In the Shield of Herakles, he definitely uses a spear:

But the son of Amphitryon, powerful Heracles,
quickly drove the great spear
at his neck, under his chin - bare between the helmet and shield -
with a masterful stroke. The murderous ash spear
cut through both sinews, for he attacked with his full strength.
Kyknos fell, as when an oak falls or a towering pine
struck by Zeus' firey thunderbolt. (Shield of Herakles 416-422)

Better yet, he will go on to wound Ares with it:

..But as Ares attacked,
the son of Amphitryon, not tired of this terrible battle,
masterfully stabbed at his thigh, bared beneath his well-made shield.
Wielding his spear, he struck hard through the flesh
and threw him down to the earth on his back. (Shield of Herakles 458-462)

Even better, he boasts of wounding Ares with it before:

Weakling! For Ares will not keep death's end away from you,
if we two come together to fight.
I declare that he has already, at another time, tested
my spear, when he stood against me
for sandy Pylos, insatiably longing for battle.
Three times he was struck by my spear and fell to the earth
with his shield pierced, but the fourth time I drove the spear into his thigh
with all my strength and I struck hard through the flesh. (Shield of Herakles 358-364)


So you can make something out of that - probably something to do with War, or possibly an anti-divinity property. Another way to go about it is to use the bit about Kyknos being like a tree struck by lightning, because lightning plays a prominent part in other tellings of the battle:

He killed Cygnus, the son of Mars, having overcome him with his weapons; when Mars had come there, and wished to fight with him on behalf of his son, Jove's lightning struck between the two men. (Hyginus, Fabulae 31)

Kyknos, son of Ares and Pyrene, challenged him to single combat. Ares stood by him and went to avenge him in the combat, but a thunderbolt hurled between them parted the two and kept them from battle. (Apollodoros, Bibliotheke 2.5.11)

So I think there's room to give lightning-calling abilities as well.

I suppose you could also try to pass off his club as a polearm?

HercFan
June 19th, 2013, 03:34 PM
On topic, I entered an RP on this site as Kayneth and because I wanted to be a dick I tried to get Herakles in the Lancer container. Consulted Seika for an eventual NP to fuck over Gilgamesh, and she gave me one. Might be interesting for you guys, hope this is okay, Seika.
Wasn't that Zeus basically saying fuck off to Ares? Maybe Hercules get his dad thunderbolt?

Lycodrake
June 19th, 2013, 03:47 PM
Herakles can have silly thunderbolt. Karna has superior nukes.

Kuradora
June 19th, 2013, 06:45 PM
Herakles can have silly thunderbolt. Karna has superior nukes.

And making snakes fall from the sky to poison everything to death without missing.