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View Full Version : Cheer Up, Sacchin! -- An Ideas Thread For Satsuki-Centric Fanfiction!



Inugami
April 14th, 2011, 04:15 PM
I'm trying to write a version of the hypothetical Satsuki Route, but there's a lot we don't know about our Mascot of Sadness. So, I'd like to generate some conversation about what we do and DON'T know for sure about her, and come up with ideas that seem to fit the gaps!


For example, we do know that she was in the badminton club in middleschool. We DON'T know if she was any good at it, or if she's part of her high school's club. They might simply not have had practice on the afternoon that she walked home with Shiki.

But if she's not in a club, what would she do with her time?

Arihiko calls her an honors student, so we can assume that she spends plenty of time studying. Being the quietly, diligently hard-working type also seems to fit her personality.

She also doesn't really seem to have any friends to hang out with, or siblings.

Maybe she reads for pleasure? Girl's manga and romance novels, perhaps? TV?


What about her potential as a magic-user? We know that she has freakish magical strength for a human, but Emiya Shirou shows us that you can have better-than-average power and absolutely no talent for actually using it for anything.

Of course, just activating his Circuits gave Shirou a second wind of stamina, and perhaps slightly boosted his strength and speed. Doing the same as a human, Satsuki would easily hit the upper limits of what the human body could actually accomplish with so much energy, and the rest of her power would be wasted on diminishing returns.

But among the few kinds of magecraft we've been able to see in Kinoko Nasu's stories, does anyone see anything for which she might have a talent appropriate to her situation or personality?


Mages also apparently have affinities for elements, whether by natural inclination or studied practice. Rin is a rare "Average One" who has affinity with all five elements recognized by the Clocktower. Sakura had a natural affinity for Water, which was either supplemented by or changed into an affinity for Imaginary Numbers.

Rin never uses elements directly, but instead sacrifices prana-gems to generate various elemental attacks, though that might be because Servants are too tough for anything less powerful. That Kayneth guy from the last war was able to use his Water and Air affinities to control a Mystic Code made of nothing but mercurcy and prana.

Those with reality marbles, presumably, gain unusual affinities like Sword, Beast, or perhaps even Despair. This may not be limited solely to those with reality marbles.

If Satsuki has an elemental affinity, I think it would be the Western element of Water. The Eastern element of Water might be characterized differently, though that might not matter if she learns a Western style.

Of course, Shirou also seemed to display a special ability to detect certain magical things by smell. He percieved a heavy scent of blood hanging around Rider, and was able to locate the anchors of her Bloodfort by the honeyed scent only he could catch. Probably, it's just a sixth sense that he interprets as smell. Can anyone point out other examples?

Might Satsuki develop a similar ESP? Might be auditory or visual instead of olfactory?

Kratosirving
April 14th, 2011, 04:46 PM
Note: Some things I say here may not make complete sense, as I'm tired and not focusing completely here, but here's some thoughts of mine on this.


Well, going by the rumors of lore about the First, (at least, I think it was. From what I'm recalling it had something to do with someone who could be an ancestor of Sacchin) and from Melty Blood with her gaining the Depletion Garden Reality Marble, it just goes to show that there is some hidden special ability dormant within her. While neither of those are canon, it is very, very rare for people who are turned to become Dead Apostles, let alone ascend to a level in which she might become one of the Twenty-Seven within days. Normally people just die, or become one of The Dead.

As for potential elements, I'm going to suggest another custom one, and just go with Life. Just the combination of the taking of prana with Depletion Garden, turning into a Vampire, and than basically trying here damnedest to oppose the degenerative state that her body becomes just makes me think of her trying to focus on stealing life to exist.


Also, we get some clues as to what we can involve in it thanks to the PLUS disc, what with her hair growing a bit longer after turning, and her personality shifts, with her becoming bolder and more confident around Shiki, whereas before she'd always shy away from him or just be subdued around him. That, and the possible plot dropping of it apparently taking place during the Near Side Arc since Arcueid is mentioned in it.

Basically, plotwise, what I was always swirling in my head is that she gets turned, and instead of being a complete Dead Apostle, she resists as much as she can, as we know from her character. Somehow she manages to stay around Shiki and eventually he'll fall in love with her, and following the principals of what I brought up earlier about her 'stealing life' she'd be able to sustain her body with semen rather than blood, as technically the whole point of Dead Apostles feeding is to absorb genetic information to temporarily stabilize their bodies. Sexual intercourse can take precedent here, and possibly be a unique function to her.

Plot conflict could revolve around her continuing to fight constantly growing impulses to follow her vampire parent, Roa, while she continues to resist until she reaches the breaking point, and goes Berserk. Shiki fights on her behalf, along with Arcuied and Ciel to kill Roa and save Satsuki, and after killing him Arcuied goes back to her castle, as does Ciel back to the Burial Agency, both allowing Satsuki to remain with Shiki since there will be no danger of her needing to kill anyone if she just has sex.

Inugami
April 14th, 2011, 07:02 PM
Well, going by the rumors of lore about the First, (at least, I think it was. From what I'm recalling it had something to do with someone who could be an ancestor of Sacchin)
I have not heard of this notion at all, before now.



with her gaining the Depletion Garden Reality Marble, it just goes to show that there is some hidden special ability dormant within her. While neither of those are canon, it is very, very rare for people who are turned to become Dead Apostles, let alone ascend to a level in which she might become one of the Twenty-Seven within days. Normally people just die, or become one of The Dead.
Satsuki is an individual like Ciel: a human being who, through random breeding and/or chance, was born with a ridiculously large number of Magic Circuits.

In the Nasuverse, when someone dies, the Circuits activate even if they weren't a mage. The Circuits are spiritual, and part of the soul, and the soul is fighting desperately to get the body working again so that the soul doesn't start to disappear. The Circuits are connected to the body's brain most of all (and from there, to the body's nerves), so the soul is capable of attempting this so long as the brain remains undamaged by whatever killed the body. Anyway, the Circuits gather mana, convert it into life-energy (od), and dump it into the body to try and jump-start it.

Most people don't have enough Circuits to accomplish this. Either they simply cannot gather enough power at all, or not enough to make a difference before the brain decays. If the brain decays enough, the connection to the soul is broken, and the soul likewise begins to decay.

Going by the manga, Arcueid killed Roa!Ciel by punching her heart out. The Buriers who came with Arcueid (or arrived later), sealed Ciel's body to preserve it and took it back to the Vatican for study. But three or five years later, one day the seals failed. And Ciel's body regenerated and broke her back to life. (Once alive, Ciel was subjected to Gaia's paradox of "you are Roa, Roa is alive, you cannot die until Roa is dead", which gave her regeneration above and beyond her natural capabilities. Killing Roa would break the paradox and revert her to her normal regenerative ability, and she could easily commit suicide with a knife to the skull.)

Satsuki was bitten and drained by a ghoul or by the half-vampiric SHIKI (possessed by Roa, but in control). This left her brain intact. Because she had magical potential, she didn't simply become a corpse (as Ciel explained, the corpses found left by the "serial killer" weren't the only victims; just the ones who couldn't become monsters). Because she had enough potential, she became a ghoul. Because she had absolutely stupendous potential, she transcended from ghoul to full-blown vampire in less than one whole night. (Considering that she was attacked after 12, but completed the transformation before sunrise, it took her seven hours at maximum.)

Even Rin doesn't have that much power. Ciel and Satsuki dwarf her there. If Rin is a "once in a generation" prodigy in terms of potential magical strength, these two are the "once in a continental generation" class or better.

Of course, on top of that, Satsuki may have inherited from Roa some of the "power" that he himself stole from Arcueid when he tricked her into transforming him.


As to the formation of her Reality Marble, I think it had to do with dying. Experiencing death is what transformed Shiki's Jougan (Pure Eyes) into Magan (Mystic Eyes), giving him not only the power to percieve some facet of reality beyond human senses, but also the power to AFFECT the world in a way beyond human power.

It was experiencing the death of his family, home, neighbors, life and sense of self that Emiya Shirou came to have the seed of Unlimited Blade Works.

A Reality Marble is "imposing an inhuman 'common sense' upon the world". It's basically for people who have gone insane, or who no longer percieve reality in quite the same fashion as others. That's why Reality Marbles can create impossible phenomena that cannot be replicated through magecraft or Marble Phantasm. It's why they can break the rules and defy sense.

Satsuki died in despair, believing that her whole existence was "loss without gain". She felt as though her life was one long losing streak, and her death was simply more of the same, especially since it came on the very same day that she'd gotten Shiki to promise and save her, and especially since he failed to do exactly that. If those thoughts alone weren't enough, her despair and sense of loss continued when she woke up, cold and hungry and in terrible pain. She had lost her warmth, her humanity, and was losing her sanity. She had to lose her morality when she feed on others to sooth her misery, but the misery only returned. "Loss without gain."

No matter how much she gained, she would lose it. No matter how much she lost, she would always lose still more.

I believe that conviction is the heart of Depletion Garden.


I do agree that there might be an element of Life (perhaps the Eastern element of Wood) that seems independent of her "loss without gain". Rather than a wilting garden, her world could have been a blackhole, or a sucking whirlpool, or an unquentiable fire.

However, her Reality Marble does not drain the environment of mana only to give it to herself; every account I have read states that her world BANISHES prana, even for herself. In her world, there is absolutely no energy to use for magic or to convert into life-force. It is a world of powerlessness and inevitable starvation. A lifeless world of pain and decay.

For her, who knows and uses no magecraft, the loss of external energy means little. For her, whose Circuits can hold enough energy to keep her going for a good long while, the inability to make more life-energy within the expanded Reality Marble ALSO means little.

It's an ideal battlefield against mages like Roa and Ciel, and elementals like Arcueid, because it strips them of their greatest strengths. Arcueid would not only lose the ability to use Marble Phantasm, but she would be cut off from the support of the Earth and experience a sharp reduction in power. How it might affect Akiha's abilities is unclear to me.

In any case, I don't think her Reality Marble is responsible for her managing to survive on small, non-fatal amounts of blood as in the story of Melty Blood.


But, going by the theory that Satsuki's affinity is independent of her despair... if she were instead to die while experiencing happiness and acceptance of her death, believing that her life was worthwhile and meaningful... and if she were then to regenerate and wake up to a second chance at life, together with the person she saved by her sacrifice, and if the person who acknowledged and valued her was happy to have her back...

Then she might develop Suffusion Garden. A place of hope, healing and growth. A place where miracles and second chances and dramatic recoveries are possible.

Eveonder
April 15th, 2011, 12:14 AM
I don't have anything to add except cheer up Sacchin... we do know from the character sketches that she takes some pretty evil poses when she's in vampire mode. This may either be Roa commanding her or her going nuts and giving into the dark side (a bad end)... alternatively, it could be her trying to get Shiki to kill her again while acting evil since she's in despair... for some reason that makes me think of Sakura...

Milbunk
April 15th, 2011, 12:19 AM
Nasu had better finish the Tsukihime remake cause I wanna see what the Sacchin route will be like.

Comartemis
April 15th, 2011, 06:01 AM
This isn't directly related to the idea of the Satsuki route, but the thread title says "ideas for Satsuki-centric fanfiction", so...

Back on the old board I had an idea I posted once about Sacchin becoming a Master. It starts with MB-era Shiki confessing to Arcuied and inadvertently breaking Satsuki's heart without even realizing it. Sacchin confronts him over her feelings, but loses control of her emotions and almost hurts Shiki very badly in a moment of "If I can't have you, nobody can" logic, which horrifies her later when she's thinking more rationally. Sacchin decides to up and leave town, partially because she doesn't trust herself to be around Shiki anymore and partially because Arc and Ciel don't trust her either and basically gave her an "I will kill you if I ever see you again" ultimatum.

So Satsuki leaves town and isn't seen again for several months. She shows up sometime later and settles in Fuyuki because the land is comfortable to her (Tohsaka Family = vampire descendants comes into play a bit here). Naturally, she shows up just in time for the Grail War to start, and manages to get on the bad side of a Servant while she's still in the dark about the ritual. One way or another, by accident or by some meeting with Kotomine (who doesn't kill her for being a dead apostle because her despair is so potent it's almost tangible), she manages to summon a Servant. She gets the False Assassin, Counter Guardian TOHNO/Satsujinki.

This version of Shiki comes from a version of the Akiha route Normal End where he eventually made a deal with the world to cure Akiha's inversion impulse. What allows Satsuki to summon Shiki specifically is the blood that Satsuki fed him during their encounter in that route just before Shiki killed her. I remember a doujin that interpreted that scene and turned it into Satsuki leaving a little piece of herself with him, which stayed with him after he became a Counter Guardian.

Shiki doesn't immediately reveal himself because meeting Satsuki again has brought up old guilt about failing to save her and he's torn between trying to help her or just putting her out of her misery. Satsuki doesn't recognize him because he's older, he never takes off the bandages around his eyes, and -- if she's spoken to Kotomine -- she "knows" that only famous heroes can be summoned, and the Shiki she knows doesn't meet that requirement.

meevanhelot
April 15th, 2011, 06:26 AM
Sakura had a natural affinity for Water, which was either supplemented by or changed into an affinity for Imaginary Numbers.

Other way around. Water was what Zouken gave her.

As for the Sacchin's abilities? Depletion Garden is probably the extent of them. Shirou took a while to realise his RM, and both his origin and alignment were geared specifically for it. Given that Sacchin didn't have to do any research (or know any magecraft at all) before getting DG, it seems pretty logical to me that she's 'locked' into that just like Shirou is locked into UBW.

Basically, I'd wager her origin and alignment are already made for DG. I don't think you can just change what Reality Marble you have.

Inugami
April 15th, 2011, 12:32 PM
Other way around. Water was what Zouken gave her.
Ah, is that so? I stand corrected.


Also, while I welcome all of this discussion regarding the supernatural aspects to Sacchin, I also want to discuss the mundane elements, like her family and hobbies.



As for the Sacchin's abilities? Depletion Garden is probably the extent of them. Shirou took a while to realise his RM, and both his origin and alignment were geared specifically for it. Given that Sacchin didn't have to do any research (or know any magecraft at all) before getting DG, it seems pretty logical to me that she's 'locked' into that just like Shirou is locked into UBW.

Basically, I'd wager her origin and alignment are already made for DG. I don't think you can just change what Reality Marble you have.
If I recall and understand the concept of Origin correctly, and suppose that Satsuki's Origin is something like "Despair" or "Loss Without Gain", then it's completely impossible to give her a happy ending.

It's also inaccurate. If her very existence denies the possibility that she can ever gain anything, she would have died at child-birth. Instead, she has good health, lives in a society of plenty that is not at war, free of major disease, has a decent education, was able to enjoy leisure and pursue hobbies...

That's why I say that she CONSIDERED her existence to be nothing but Loss. It was self-centered and untrue.

Quite simply, as unhappy as Satsuki was, there are people in the world far more unhappy than she is. So, I take with a pound of salt the idea that her Origin being something which absolutely mandates unhappiness.

I also reject the idea on the grounds that I want to give her a happy ending, and that such a thing stands in my way. So if it really is canon, I'm going to ignore it for my own purposes.


I'll also say this: Shirou's version of UBW was slightly different from Archer's. The differences were cosmetic, but they were both still basically the same.

See, Archer died happy as a human. He really had no regrets about how he'd lived his life, or even about being executed as a scapegoat by one of the people he fought to save. True, he didn't really understand what his copies would do as Counterguardians, but that doesn't change the fact that he was satisfied with his life. His Reality Marble was centered around this path that Emiya Shirou was happy with.

When he was summoned as an Archer, he didn't need the general instantaneous download of the Japanese language or customs that Servants from the past would need. But the timeless downloading proceedure allowed him to absorb the records of what the world had been doing with his Counterguardian copies. He had built up expectations that his copies would be saving and protecting and helping individuals, rather than slaughtering individuals for the sake of the entire human race. The betrayal of his expectations felt like denunciation of his convictions.

So he was bitter and cynical and wanted to kill himself... but he was still the same person underneath that he'd always been. He still had the urge to save people, still believed it was right to do so. Much as he hated his younger self, he still gave him advice, saved his life, and even transplanted his arm so that Shirou could survive and keep fighting to save people.

In the UBW route, Shirou fought Archer with all of the passion that Archer had lost sight of since his summoning. He made Archer realize that he was just throwing an adult's childish tantrum. He DID still love his ideal. He DID still think it was worthwhile. He was just angry because for a time he had forgotten that, lost in the pain of his shattered expectations. When he said goodbye to Rin at the end, he was content with his death again, just as he was the first time.

The similarities between Archer and Shirou were far greater than their differences. Of course, they both already had their Reality Marble before facing the experiences that introduced those differences.

With Satsuki, it's different. She doesn't yet have her Reality Marble before becoming a vampire. There still might be the possibility that it could turn out differently, if she starts on an extremely different path before it's even born.

meevanhelot
April 15th, 2011, 12:58 PM
Your origin determines your actions, not your luck. Having loss as her origin doesn't mean she would magically lose everything she gains. It wouldn't even manipulate her actions much unless she awakened to it.

If origin was powerful enough to do what you're describing then Ryougi would have just ceased to exist the moment she was born.

Tangerang
April 15th, 2011, 01:07 PM
Yeah. For example, it is possible to go against your origin. Your origin is just like a driving urge, a direction, unless you actually awaken it, it's not exactly 'lol absolute'.

Or something.

Inugami
April 15th, 2011, 08:19 PM
Okay.


So, what do you guys think Satsuki thinks about Arihiko? Because judging from the things she almost says to Shiki, I get the impression she actively dislikes him, and part of her difficulty in approaching Shiki is that Arihiko's always hanging around him.

Eveonder
April 15th, 2011, 10:12 PM
Does your origin change when you become a vampire or is it some soul thing that remains the same? It doesn't really have to affect your affinity or abilities... Satsuki before she was blessed was suck was a pretty normal girl with a crush on Tohno.

As for Arihiko, I think that's just Satsuki being shy, they're friends or they should be... but she can't have alone time with Shiki or work up to confess when the other friend is around.

eddyak
April 16th, 2011, 10:02 AM
I don't think she actively dislikes Arihiko, she's just hesitant around him because she can't really figure him out. He seems to be a delinquent, but he's a nice guy, he's pretty much the opposite of Shiki, but he's a good friend of Shiki's- she just doesn't much talk to him because he's too far out of her world.

Inugami
April 16th, 2011, 11:14 AM
wrong thread

Erlkonig
April 16th, 2011, 11:16 AM
Wrong thread brah.

Ergast
April 16th, 2011, 11:25 AM
That's what I was thinking. That, or that I would have missed something.

Anyway, nice analysis of the Persona 3 and 4 XD

ItsaRandomUsername
April 16th, 2011, 04:40 PM
Heh.

Fangstrike
April 16th, 2011, 06:05 PM
Does your origin change when you become a vampire or is it some soul thing that remains the same? It doesn't really have to affect your affinity or abilities... Satsuki before she was blessed was suck was a pretty normal girl with a crush on Tohno.

As for Arihiko, I think that's just Satsuki being shy, they're friends or they should be... but she can't have alone time with Shiki or work up to confess when the other friend is around.

I think the Origin is linked to your personality or who you are at the core. For Satsuki, who went through a life changing experience, her origin could have changed when she became a vampire giving birth to her Depletion Garden.

Somehow a non-fairy tale ending like Arcueid, Saber, and Akiha's end seems fitting for Sacchin. I just can't see her route ending on a high note with Shiki. Maybe she dies by her own choice or gets killed by someone like Ciel or Arc, but first she gets Shiki to fall for her. That doesn't necessarily mean its a bad ending. I mean when I read the end of Fate, I was really disappointed but I swallowed it because it was an amazing end.

Eveonder
April 16th, 2011, 09:50 PM
Really? I'd rather give her a Sakura ending. After going through a lot of hell where everything gets worse, her good friend Dust of Osiris-chan shows up... a wizard did it... Aoko maybe... and cures her vampirism >_> kinda like how Zelretch shows up and helps out Rin. Of course, that's after dealing with a dead apostle or two, Roa... nrvnqsr... whatever.

meevanhelot
April 17th, 2011, 07:00 AM
I think the Origin is linked to your personality or who you are at the core. For Satsuki, who went through a life changing experience, her origin could have changed when she became a vampire giving birth to her Depletion Garden.

Origin is the driving force of the soul. It's the base upon which everything else is set. I highly doubt a change in the body or mind would change that. The origin changes the person, the person doesn't change the origin.

The only case we have of origin changing is Shirou, and that was thanks to some weird ass shit with Avalon, and happened over a long period of time (CM3 says it's becoming sword).

If anything, for a life changing experience to cause the realisation a Reality Marble, it probably awakened her origin.

I think a story where she finds happiness in spite of her origin, rather than one where she gets it because her origin is really "peace and love and everything is ponies" is more powerful anyway.

Fangstrike
April 18th, 2011, 12:20 AM
Ah, yes. I stand corrected Meev.

It doesn't look like Origin changes. I think I got that mixed up with the Reality Marble, which apparently is more tightly linked to personality/inner ideals as shown through the three routes. In HF, Shirou mentions he can't use UBW because he's too different/diverged from Archer.

As for the endings, I hate Deus Ex Machina endings, pretty much everyone does, which is why I feel so strongly about Satsuki having a realistic happy end, something I'm having trouble visualizing. Her situation is just so tragic and serves to underline how bad the hunger is for vampires, like with Arcueid and Sion who refuse to give in. I'd be happy if someone could present an ending that didn't sound too hax, something I haven't come across yet.

Tangerang
April 18th, 2011, 12:24 AM
Happy endings?

In Tsukihime?

Impossible.

I'm fairly sure she dies in at least one of her endings, possibly more, if certain factors are anything to judge by.

Eveonder
April 18th, 2011, 12:33 AM
I can't really imagine a happy ending for her without deus ex machina. At best, she'll end up with an ending like Akiha or Arc normal end.

Tangerang
April 18th, 2011, 12:37 AM
Satsuki good end is an extremely difficult end that can only be achieved by not making a single wrong decision. In it, Satsuki never becomes vamped, and the story turns into a love comedy between Satsuki in the tohno household, with an atmosphere that will make the reader only think one thought.

'Am I still playing the same fucking game?'

Inugami
April 18th, 2011, 12:39 AM
Had a thought about how Depletion Garden might work. Considering that Reality Marbles often have various related powers rather than just one single effect, and generally allow some ability even before expanding the inner world.

The dying trees seen in Satsuki's world are more than simple decoration. They are vampiric trees. Starving and withering from the utter absence of mana, they seek to drain the lifeforce of others to sustain themselves. They will move under their own power and volition to attack; they won't uproot themseves, but they'll lash out with their branches to smash and grab, draining energy upon contact. But the world is Satsuki's, so the trees are her as well; all prana drained by the trees is transferred directly to her instead.

Satsuki is also capable of causing all the dead tree leaves to fly about on a non-existent wind, pelting and blinding her targets, and draining them to a lesser degree.

This idea was not actually inspired by Melty Blood's depiction of her Reality Marble as an attack. That was merely a happy coincidence. But in any case, this idea of mine clearly fits how the power is presented in the fighting games.

It also makes her Reality Marble as powerful and dangerous as a Reality Marble ought to be. Without it, Depletion Garden is nothing more than unfeasible long slow attrition; there's no way Satsuki could keep her world expanded OR keep a fight going long enough for people to keel over from lack of energy, especially since she has to keep spending her own energy to maintain the world. But the trees and leaves allow her to deplete her enemies faster AND make herself and her world last longer.

Oh, and her power outside of her inner world would be draining prana with a touch. Not just life-energy, but any prana currently contained in one's body (such as from self-Reinforcement) or Circuits. Draining objects would also be possible. Perhaps she might even be able to summon flurries of dead leaves from no where, blowing about on a wind that isn't there.

Perhaps, as Roa did with Arcueid and SHIKI did with Shiki, Satsuki might even be able to steal the basic "strength" of others and add it to her own, facilitating her rapid growth into a vampire which Roa would surely want to possess.


It was in having these series of ideas that I also realized how her Reality Marble might be different, as a human, while still very much the same.

I even came up with an Aria for her to chant.

I'll save all of that as a secret, though.

Inugami
April 18th, 2011, 12:47 AM
Satsuki good end is an extremely difficult end that can only be achieved by not making a single wrong decision. In it, Satsuki never becomes vamped, and the story turns into a love comedy between Satsuki in the tohno household, with an atmosphere that will make the reader only think one thought.

'Am I still playing the same fucking game?'
Certainly doesn't sound like the atmosphere I was planning.

As if turning into a vampire is the only bad thing that can happen to a girl.

Ciel's route ended happily in BOTH endings, and it was still very much Tsukihime.

Inugami
April 18th, 2011, 12:52 AM
In HF, Shirou mentions he can't use UBW because he's too different/diverged from Archer.
Notice the differences between Archer's aria and Shirou's in UBW? And the differences in appearance?

I'm sure those slight differences would have been enough of a divergence. I don't think HF Shirou absolutely couldn't use UBW, he just couldn't use Archer's arm to use Archer's exact version of it. He'd need to use himself to use his own exact version.

But that's my opinion.



As for the endings, I hate Deus Ex Machina endings, pretty much everyone does, which is why I feel so strongly about Satsuki having a realistic happy end, something I'm having trouble visualizing. Her situation is just so tragic and serves to underline how bad the hunger is for vampires, like with Arcueid and Sion who refuse to give in. I'd be happy if someone could present an ending that didn't sound too hax, something I haven't come across yet.
This is explicitly why I'm writing a route that DOESN'T involve her becoming a vampire.

Tangerang
April 18th, 2011, 12:53 AM
Certainly doesn't sound like the atmosphere I was planning.

As if turning into a vampire is the only bad thing that can happen to a girl.

Tis a joke.

About the remake making her route a super light-hearted slice-of-life comedy in contrast with all the grim and dark routes of Tsukihime.

Inugami
April 18th, 2011, 01:01 AM
This isn't directly related to the idea of the Satsuki route, but the thread title says "ideas for Satsuki-centric fanfiction", so...

Back on the old board I had an idea I posted once about Sacchin becoming a Master. It starts with MB-era Shiki confessing to Arcuied and inadvertently breaking Satsuki's heart without even realizing it. Sacchin confronts him over her feelings, but loses control of her emotions and almost hurts Shiki very badly in a moment of "If I can't have you, nobody can" logic, which horrifies her later when she's thinking more rationally. Sacchin decides to up and leave town, partially because she doesn't trust herself to be around Shiki anymore and partially because Arc and Ciel don't trust her either and basically gave her an "I will kill you if I ever see you again" ultimatum.

So Satsuki leaves town and isn't seen again for several months. She shows up sometime later and settles in Fuyuki because the land is comfortable to her (Tohsaka Family = vampire descendants comes into play a bit here). Naturally, she shows up just in time for the Grail War to start, and manages to get on the bad side of a Servant while she's still in the dark about the ritual. One way or another, by accident or by some meeting with Kotomine (who doesn't kill her for being a dead apostle because her despair is so potent it's almost tangible), she manages to summon a Servant. She gets the False Assassin, Counter Guardian TOHNO/Satsujinki.

This version of Shiki comes from a version of the Akiha route Normal End where he eventually made a deal with the world to cure Akiha's inversion impulse. What allows Satsuki to summon Shiki specifically is the blood that Satsuki fed him during their encounter in that route just before Shiki killed her. I remember a doujin that interpreted that scene and turned it into Satsuki leaving a little piece of herself with him, which stayed with him after he became a Counter Guardian.

Shiki doesn't immediately reveal himself because meeting Satsuki again has brought up old guilt about failing to save her and he's torn between trying to help her or just putting her out of her misery. Satsuki doesn't recognize him because he's older, he never takes off the bandages around his eyes, and -- if she's spoken to Kotomine -- she "knows" that only famous heroes can be summoned, and the Shiki she knows doesn't meet that requirement.
Sorry for taking so long to respond, Com, but that sounds like an interesting story.

Of course, a vampire sustaining a Servant doesn't sound like the kind of arrangement that can continue on indefinitely after the War without needing to drink a LOT of blood. Something which I'm not sure the two of them would accept. (Maybe a bittersweet ending of romantic double-suicide?)

Also, expanding her Reality Marble when her Servant is around would be a bad idea.

Normal RMs don't seem to cut Servants off from the fuel-support of the Grail System, since Archer and Saber seemed unaffected in that regard when he used UBW against Rin, Saber and Shirou. However, Depletion Garden's very nature is to banish available energies, so it might be different.

Inugami
April 18th, 2011, 01:03 AM
Tis a joke.

About the remake making her route a super light-hearted slice-of-life comedy in contrast with all the grim and dark routes of Tsukihime.

Isn't it silly, Sacchin?

Eveonder
April 18th, 2011, 02:09 AM
Sacchin ain't Sacchin if her family didn't get eaten by nrvnqsr and she doesn't get bitten by a vampire. She'd be generic eroge heroine #334.

But if she doesn't become a vampire, she doesn't really have much plot. Other than maybe Akiha trying to kill her for stealing Shiki.

Comartemis
April 18th, 2011, 02:10 AM
Sorry for taking so long to respond, Com, but that sounds like an interesting story.

Of course, a vampire sustaining a Servant doesn't sound like the kind of arrangement that can continue on indefinitely after the War without needing to drink a LOT of blood. Something which I'm not sure the two of them would accept. (Maybe a bittersweet ending of romantic double-suicide?)

Also, expanding her Reality Marble when her Servant is around would be a bad idea.

Normal RMs don't seem to cut Servants off from the fuel-support of the Grail System, since Archer and Saber seemed unaffected in that regard when he used UBW against Rin, Saber and Shirou. However, Depletion Garden's very nature is to banish available energies, so it might be different.
That's the beauty of it: she won't be a vampire by the time the war is over.

Shiki's eyes are limited by his perspective. The further something is from being human, the harder it is for him to see the lines on it if I remember my mechanics properly, right? Well Shiki as a heroic spirit is quite a ways above a normal human, so it should be natural for his perspective to change with his shift upwards on the power scale. Even if the old rules still hold true and he can't see the lines on non-spiritual beings -- and I don't think they would, he should still be able to perceive the lines on normal humans and solid objects since he could manage that while he was alive -- that still means he can cut the lines and pierce the points on other Heroic Spirits.

Like Avenger, for instance.

So yeah, one purified Grail, coming right up!

Eveonder
April 18th, 2011, 02:12 AM
Vampirism is an infection of the soul. If he can perceive those lines and cut the grail, he might as well kill Sacchin's vampirism... assuming it's not a concept and a literal infection.

Alyeris
April 18th, 2011, 04:10 AM
... Shiki almost dies when he looks at the death of one soul (Roa's). You are going to tell him to look at the death of ALL THE EVILS IN THE WORLD?

He's going to be dead as soon as he widens his eyes...

Comartemis
April 18th, 2011, 05:24 AM
Except this isn't human Shiki, it's Counter Guardian TOHNO, so the old limits don't apply anymore.

Inugami
April 18th, 2011, 11:08 AM
Except this isn't human Shiki, it's Counter Guardian TOHNO, so the old limits don't apply anymore.
Especially if, before he died, he made a reputation for himself in the shadow world. "The one who can kill anything." "He who sees the End of all things."

The greatest of heroes are known across the world. But you only need to be known to one people to become a hero. Vampires count as a people, especially since legends among the vampire community will probably become known in the circles of mages and the Church.

The Melty Blood also shows that he might accidentally gain the mantle of rumor and local legend generated by Roa/SHIKI's murders, if his figure is seen stalking the city streets at night. His true identity doesn't need to become known, because the weight of legend will fall on the best target, and the best target is usually the one the rumors are told about.

So, if Roa/SHIKI were summoned, they'd have those rumors on them. But if those same rumors were also applied to Shiki later, he would also have them in addition to stories of his own actual exploits.

Inugami
April 18th, 2011, 11:10 AM
That's the beauty of it: she won't be a vampire by the time the war is over.
Hmm. I see.

PM me for thoughts on her Reality Marble, if you're interested. And I think you would be.

Inugami
April 18th, 2011, 11:11 AM
Sacchin ain't Sacchin if her family didn't get eaten by nrvnqsr and she doesn't get bitten by a vampire.
Her family was never eaten by Nero.

Also, you are blind to the possibilities I see.

Eveonder
April 18th, 2011, 11:31 AM
Her family was never eaten by Nero.

Also, you are blind to the possibilities I see.

Ah sorry, they were just presumed dead, another VN has me killing everyone off.

I admit to being very conservative but a normal Satsuki wouldn't be Sacchin, she would be the only normal human heroine of tsukihime and that doesn't mesh well with the other non-humans/super-humans.

Inugami
April 18th, 2011, 01:35 PM
Well, no one responded to my "Vampire trees!" idea.

Which might be just as well, since today I went and checked Melty Blood's Depletion Garden, and saw that it isn't actually a garden of trees at all. It starts as an idyllic green grassy field, with some white marble ruins/temple in the background, before turning into a barren wasteland. If there are any trees at all providing those dead leaves, they're far off in the background.

So, my idea is awesome, but might require changing canon. Damn.

I'll have to think on it.

Anyway, what DID people think of my idea?

Rc1212
April 18th, 2011, 08:58 PM
If anything, for a life changing experience to cause the realisation a Reality Marble, it probably awakened her origin.

I think a story where she finds happiness in spite of her origin, rather than one where she gets it because her origin is really "peace and love and everything is ponies" is more powerful anyway.

This. I like this.


Well, no one responded to my "Vampire trees!" idea.

Which might be just as well, since today I went and checked Melty Blood's Depletion Garden, and saw that it isn't actually a garden of trees at all. It starts as an idyllic green grassy field, with some white marble ruins/temple in the background, before turning into a barren wasteland. If there are any trees at all providing those dead leaves, they're far off in the background.

So, my idea is awesome, but might require changing canon. Damn.

I'll have to think on it.

Anyway, what DID people think of my idea?

I liked it. Would have been cool.

Inugami
April 18th, 2011, 09:47 PM
I'm just going forward with the idea that there really are trees involved, because that's just cooler and makes more sense, and I have a much harder time imagining how an empty, barren wasteland is supposed to be dangerous, even with a lack of mana. Also, those damn leaves have to come from somewhere.

Kuradora
November 16th, 2011, 12:13 AM
I'm just going forward with the idea that there really are trees involved, because that's just cooler and makes more sense, and I have a much harder time imagining how an empty, barren wasteland is supposed to be dangerous, even with a lack of mana. Also, those damn leaves have to come from somewhere.

Well, couldn't the leaves come from trees that are in the background like the gears in Archer's UBW?

Kratosirving
November 16th, 2011, 12:22 AM
...At first I was going to post something about a necro'd thread, but......


HOLY SHIT, SOMETHING I SAID GOT SIGGED?!

Delcer
November 16th, 2011, 12:22 AM
3466

pureauthor
November 16th, 2011, 12:23 AM
I was looking through the necro'd thread and then I came upon this:


Long ago, in a distant timeline, I, Kyuubee, the Entropy-shifting Master of Grief, unleashed an unspeakable evil! But a foolish Mahou Shoujo wielding a magic shield stepped forth to oppose me. Before the final blow was struck, she tore open a portal in time and flung herself into the past, where my evil is raw! Now, the fool seeks to change the future, and undo the future that is Kyuubee..."

This is fantastic.

LunarLegend
November 16th, 2011, 02:21 AM
I once read in a doujin somewhere that Sacchin was into Tarot, and that she was so happy that she had 'an important destiny with Tohno-kun' (har de har har!). I figured she might be a bit of an occult enthusiast, liking stuff like fortune telling due to a preternatural inkling borne of her magic circuit count. Plus, it might explain her attraction to Shiki, too - he's dripping with supernatural weirdness, and she finds her supernatural side drawn to it almost as much as her mundane side is off-put by it.



So, what do you guys think Satsuki thinks about Arihiko? Because judging from the things she almost says to Shiki, I get the impression she actively dislikes him, and part of her difficulty in approaching Shiki is that Arihiko's always hanging around him.


I don't think she actively dislikes Arihiko, she's just hesitant around him because she can't really figure him out. He seems to be a delinquent, but he's a nice guy, he's pretty much the opposite of Shiki, but he's a good friend of Shiki's- she just doesn't much talk to him because he's too far out of her world.

I thought Satsuki might avoid Arihiko because he comes off as a delinquent, and we all know how well delinquents are treated in Japanese highschool culture. Arihiko's a good bro to Shiki, but he's kind of a roughneck. Probably she might get to know him better and like him if she ever felt that he's not going to be a barrier between Shiki and herself.



Well, no one responded to my "Vampire trees!" idea.

Anyway, what DID people think of my idea?

I like it. It makes sense, has good combat applications, and is suitably Gothic to boot! Je l'aime!

I3uster
November 16th, 2011, 04:54 AM
Well, if you want a "normal" ending you can always have Shiki go blind from stabbing her "vampire-ness"

In-N-Out Double-Double & Animal Fries
November 16th, 2011, 05:32 AM
This is totally irrelevant but does anyone know where that TYPE-MOON Sailor Moon crossover fic is?

nununu
November 16th, 2011, 11:36 AM
This is totally irrelevant but does anyone know where that TYPE-MOON Sailor Moon crossover fic is?
This one? (http://forums.nrvnqsr.com/showthread.php/1139-Type-Moon-Sailor-Moon-Tentative-Title-Moon-Type-Moon)

whosaidthat
November 16th, 2011, 01:40 PM
Just throwing my two cents, but maybe the worlds of Fate and Tsukihime aren't the same powerwise. Maybe the world of Tsukihime is still more inherently powerful in terms of raw power, and even though the world of Fate is weaker in raw power and mana potential it is also more fucked in terms of shit going on.

I personally like to make Kara no Kyokai and Fate universe to be the same, while Tsukihime universe is separate. One clue for that is the speech of Ryougi Shiki win quote against Arcueid.

Why I am bringing this up? Give Sacchin the inherent power boost of Tsukihime and go wild on the crazyness she can throw around. In a sense she is a mix up of Grail Sakura power and Emiya Shirou WTF factor.

EnigmaticFellow
November 16th, 2011, 02:20 PM
Just throwing my two cents, but maybe the worlds of Fate and Tsukihime aren't the same powerwise. Maybe the world of Tsukihime is still more inherently powerful in terms of raw power, and even though the world of Fate is weaker in raw power and mana potential it is also more fucked in terms of shit going on.

I personally like to make Kara no Kyokai and Fate universe to be the same, while Tsukihime universe is separate. One clue for that is the speech of Ryougi Shiki win quote against Arcueid.

Why I am bringing this up? Give Sacchin the inherent power boost of Tsukihime and go wild on the crazyness she can throw around. In a sense she is a mix up of Grail Sakura power and Emiya Shirou WTF factor.

The problem with that is that there are Dead Apostles in the F/SN world due to what we learned of in Kiritsugu's past. Since there are no DAs in KnK, F/SN can't be in the same universe as KnK

whosaidthat
November 16th, 2011, 03:49 PM
The problem with that is that there are Dead Apostles in the F/SN world due to what we learned of in Kiritsugu's past. Since there are no DAs in KnK, F/SN can't be in the same universe as KnK

Wasn't no True Ancestors in KnK?

EnigmaticFellow
November 16th, 2011, 04:06 PM
Wasn't no True Ancestors in KnK?

If there's no True Ancestors, then there cannot be any Dead Apostles since the Dead Apostle Ancestors came to be by the TAs infecting humans.

Gabriulio
November 16th, 2011, 04:35 PM
If there's no True Ancestors, then there cannot be any Dead Apostles since the Dead Apostle Ancestors came to be by the TAs infecting humans.

Erm... wasn't Nrvnqsr a magus that achieved immortality using magecraft? Some DA are just humans who became immortal like that, that's the reason Nrvnqsr needs to consume whole humans, and couldn't turn anyone in a vampire even if he wanted. And if I remember correctly, there was a DAA in form of a crow that was said to have achieved that status also using magecraft.

So, not many DAs, but some of them.

whosaidthat
November 16th, 2011, 04:56 PM
The no TA clause may mean only that they all got killed by Arc she is finally sleeping eternally since there isn't anything else to do. Probably the rooster of DAs is also changed without Altrouge.

Cubia - the - Anti-Existence
November 16th, 2011, 05:06 PM
Erm... wasn't Nrvnqsr a magus that achieved immortality using magecraft? Some DA are just humans who became immortal like that, that's the reason Nrvnqsr needs to consume whole humans, and couldn't turn anyone in a vampire even if he wanted. And if I remember correctly, there was a DAA in form of a crow that was said to have achieved that status also using magecraft.

So, not many DAs, but some of them.

The crow dead apostle was the Crimson Moons pet magus.

Also wasn't there a scene in fate that mentioned the Jewled Sword of Zelretch being used to stop the moon fall? That kind of points out that it's probably that Zelretch's home universe.

whosaidthat
November 16th, 2011, 05:33 PM
When the Kaleidoscope is involved, there isn't 'that' Zelretch, but always 'Zelretch'.

Cubia - the - Anti-Existence
November 17th, 2011, 12:32 AM
So Zelretch stops the moon falling in tsukihime verse and then goes to train some magi in another universe that somehow know and believe that he stopped the moon fall?

Also I doubt that whole "there isn't 'that' Zelretch, but always 'Zelretch' thing since unless Zelretch is a pan-dimensional hive mind then a timeline where he never gets turned into a vampire should result in him having died of old age before the grail gets set up.

As for tsukihime being more "powerful" Satsuki is a freak of nature in story. The odds of a person transforming into a full vampire as fast as she did are probably less than someone wiht a "void' origin being born.

As for the win quote I don't see how "I get the feeling I've met you somewhere...Or that I could never meet you... Hey, you dumb woman. It's not like you've transcended the boundaries of time or something right?" implies that tsukihime and fate are different universes.

All it means is that Ryougi Shiki and Arcuied aren't suppoused to met. There also both technically not suppoused to exist either. Yet they just met and if I rmeember correctly character material three says the nausverse has an elements whose function is "that which is impossible but happens anyway".

Considering the only point of divergence between Kara no kyoukai and tsukihime is that apparently brunested never sent "help" I don't see how this would effect the Einzberns, Tohsaka, and Zouken setting up the grail unless Zelretch doesn't show up. What makes Zelretch less likely to take an apprentice from his home universe?

Actually I think the whole there seperate(beyond the fact that there are dozens of timeline combinations) thing is trolling because of the following
1. The True Anceestors apparently can't exist because of Touko's original human template theory because apparently she would have known what her goal was if Arcuied existed. Oh and because apparently in Tsukihime Arcuied is what Touko's was looking for while in Kara no Kyoukai it's Ryougi Shiki. Am I the only one that realizes that Arcuied and Ryougi Shiki look really damn similar if you ignore the hair color, eye color, and apparent age difference all of which can be explained by Shinso blood? Or that Arcuied can't be what Touko is looking for do to her shinso parts? Or that hyprotehetically if Arcuied is what Touko's looking for she a. spends most of her time asleep and b. can hypnotize people and would probably make Touko mentally incapable of figuring out to go look for her if touko figured it out?

and

2. The second main reason is that apparently its statistically impossible for there to be more than one person wiht the mystical eyes of death perception at a time. This doesn't say much since one of the two people that has it also happens to be statistically impossible. Anyone else remember that Ryougi's orign personality basically says something along the lines of "I was suppoused to self abort but the Ryougi genetics are wierd".

Anyway Satsuki doesn't really need a power boost but rather tranining. Or actually considering her mana destroying reality marble and super magic potential she just needs to get taught reinforcement and some form of combat for when her hypnosis doesn't work. Actually considering Roa regenerated from his ancles under the full moon vampire Satsuki probably is a combination of dark Sakura and Emyia Shirou's wtf factor. Satsuki's healing under a fullmoon would probably be ridiculous.

Actually this brings up a thought. What if Satsuki was taken in by a magus family before or in place of getting vampirised? If she has a normal affinity and doesn't develop her reality marble and thus get a sealing designation she'd be a damned good candidate for an enforcer on raw power alone.

SeiKeo
November 17th, 2011, 12:38 AM
1. The True Anceestors apparently can't exist because of Touko's original human template theory because apparently she would have known what her goal was if Arcuied existed. Oh and because apparently in Tsukihime Arcuied is what Touko's was looking for while in Kara no Kyoukai it's Ryougi Shiki. Am I the only one that realizes that Arcuied and Ryougi Shiki look really damn similar if you ignore the hair color, eye color, and apparent age difference all of which can be explained by Shinso blood? Or that Arcuied can't be what Touko is looking for do to her shinso parts? Or that hyprotehetically if Arcuied is what Touko's looking for she a. spends most of her time asleep and b. can hypnotize people and would probably make Touko mentally incapable of figuring out to go look for her if touko figured it out?

...Shiki is a True Ancestor. Mind blown.

reborn214
November 17th, 2011, 12:40 AM
Eh tragedy is part of Sacchin's character. Now if said Magus family were brutally killed successfully hiding for Roa I'd probably like the idea better.

lethum
November 17th, 2011, 12:45 AM
hyprotehetically Lol.

whosaidthat
November 17th, 2011, 03:49 AM
*snip*

When you have the ability to get memories from your parallel self from another dimension it kind of invalidate the clain that each Zelretch would be so much different from each other unless they don't use the Kaleidoscope at all.

The problem with the lack of DAA on KnK is the fact that now we have two very powerful organizations going at each other throats because the only common ground that made their conflict pause now suddenly disappeared. On the other hand the sole existence of organizations like the Demon Hunter Association suggests that there is something quite dangerous in the world that will fill the DAA post, maybe even get the same name since there are various types of vampires, even if their origin is different.

As far as I'm concerned, it's just you that think like that about Ryougi Shiki. She is more like a mix of Nanaya with a lazy appartment cat, and the only part that could be called a human Arc died to save Shiki. Not only that but the stance of Shiki looks to be "fuck life and I will kill if I want, but it is too troublesome to actually do it, or to do anything, really".

How do you know for sure that Arc is what Touko's was looking for? And why the TA can't exist because of her theory? Unless I'm mistaken, didn't Crimson Moon came after the humans as a response for the faulty Counter Force (humanity) Gaia made and wanted to both wipe it out and make an alternative?

Cubia - the - Anti-Existence
November 17th, 2011, 03:50 AM
...Shiki is a True Ancestor. Mind blown.

Um I was saying that the main visual differances between Ryougi Shiki and Arcuied just seem to be traits related to Arcuied being a true ancestor. They look really similar once you ignore hair and eye color and factor in the age difference. Which would make sense since if Touko's theory is true Arcuied's body should have been based on Ryougi Shikis?

Although Shiki with marble phantasm would be awesome.



Eh tragedy is part of Sacchin's character. Now if said Magus family were brutally killed successfully hiding for Roa I'd probably like the idea better.

So we have an ancestor level dead apostle that knowns magecraft and is probably going to be on her way to developing depletion garden. Satsuki might even realize how "special' she is if her magus family taught her about dead apostles. If she gets those eyes of enchantment she can initially avoid killing poeple by hypnotising the people at a blood bank to supply her with blood packs like the kind Akiha uses.

You know I think I might almost feel sorry for Roa since hes going to have another near-Ciel level freak that wants revenge.

I3uster
November 17th, 2011, 04:17 AM
Um I was saying that the main visual differances between Ryougi Shiki and Arcuied just seem to be traits related to Arcuied being a true ancestor. They look really similar once you ignore hair and eye color and factor in the age difference.
Congratulations, you discovered Takeuchi samefaces.

Cubia - the - Anti-Existence
November 17th, 2011, 05:05 AM
Congratulations, you discovered Takeuchi samefaces.

True but if Ryougi is suppouse to be "original human template + human soul" while Arcuied is "original human template + moon spirit stuff" then it would make sense for them to look similar.


When you have the ability to get memories from your parallel self from another dimension it kind of invalidate the clain that each Zelretch would be so much different from each other unless they don't use the Kaleidoscope at all.

Mostly I figure Zelretch would have enough control to not download vampirism and unless the multiverse is limited it's more likely to be Zelretch from that reality than a traveler. assuming Crimson Moon never showed up it's unlikely human Zelretch would live till the grail wars get set up.


The problem with the lack of DAA on KnK is the fact that now we have two very powerful organizations going at each other throats because the only common ground that made their conflict pause now suddenly disappeared. On the other hand the sole existence of organizations like the Demon Hunter Association suggests that there is something quite dangerous in the world that will fill the DAA post, maybe even get the same name since there are various types of vampires, even if their origin is different.

Considering the Demon hunter organisation had to work with a family of hybrids there probably rather small. Also we already know what they hunt oni hybrid that invert. Also the demon hunter organisation is part of Tsukihime along with the dead apostles. While the Ryougi, Asagami, and Fujou are mentioned to be part of it the organisation it self isn't mentioned until tsukihime.



As far as I'm concerned, it's just you that think like that about Ryougi Shiki. She is more like a mix of Nanaya with a lazy appartment cat, and the only part that could be called a human Arc died to save Shiki. Not only that but the stance of Shiki looks to be "fuck life and I will kill if I want, but it is too troublesome to actually do it, or to do anything, really".

I didn't say personallity.


Am I the only one that realizes that Arcuied and Ryougi Shiki look really damn similar if you ignore the hair color, eye color, and apparent age difference all of which can be explained by Shinso blood?

Other than the blond hair, red eyes, and looking older Arcuied doesn't look that different from Ryougi Shiki. (I'm assuming i don't need glases). If you mean the self-abort thing ryougi's origin personality said so herself in the epilouge.


How do you know for sure that Arc is what Touko's was looking for? And why the TA can't exist because of her theory? Unless I'm mistaken, didn't Crimson Moon came after the humans as a response for the faulty Counter Force (humanity) Gaia made and wanted to both wipe it out and make an alternative?

I don't I remember reading that was one of the reasons i remember reading but I think it's Nasu(or less likely the translator) trolling. Even if Aruied was what Touko wanted she wold have no way of knowing. Anyway it basically went like this Touko was trying to find the original human body which apparently comes free with a link to Akasha. In Kara no Kyoukai Ryougi Shiki a.k.a. Akasha Incarnate is that body. Yes I know this doesn't work when it comes to genetics I'm thinking that since souls can influence the body it's more of an "archetype".

Now in tsukihime the True Ancestors were modeled after the "original human template". Arcuied being a "prefect true ancestor" would thus be the "original human form". Note that this ignores the addition of the Crimson Moon's essence to the "template". Now apparently theres suppoused to be some kind of paradox or contradiction between Arcuied and Touko's research. More evidence to my trolling theory because even if Arcuied was the body Touko wanted I doubt magi would have a method of figuring this out and Touko gave up her goal when she invented cloning.

(My personal theory if Touko was able to figure it out it that Arcuied regularly hypnotises her into forgetting and her freak out over Shiki mentioning Aoko was because running into one increase her chance of running into the other.)

Theres the Ryougi Shiki and Arcuied issue but that can be solved to be remembering that Arcuied is "original human template + moon spirit stuff".

Now then imagine Arcuied in the body of a sixteen year old, give her gray contacts, have her dye her hair black, and put her in a kimono. If she met Ryougi the two could probably star as twins in a movie.

Anyway if you go with that handwave the contraditions really only Arcuied herself. Oh and you have it slightly wrong.

Gaia and Humanity have seperate counter forces. Which freaked Gaia out because the existence of Alaya would allow humanity to outlive it. Oh and somehow Gaia knows that humanity will kill it somehow. Crimson Moon made a deal to protect it in exchange for being allowed to live on it because it world was too boring or something like that.

then for some unexplained reason it winds up that he has to worry about both sides of the counter force destroying his body and decides to try to crash the moon. Which makes absolutly no sense unless Gaia and Alaya happen to both have "buracracy" as their origin.

whosaidthat
November 17th, 2011, 06:39 AM
Zelretch trying to see what he looks like in another world and acquiring vampirism in the process is a completely valid and very likely outcome if vampires like the TA or Crimson Moon don't really exist on his own reality, thus he don't need to be cautious enough to do it.

I don't see what you are talking about the sameness of their faces, other than the 'Only six faces' problem most artists have in making their characters and recycled design. Another example of something like that is Shinji Ikari a character from Nausicaa of the Valey of the Wind, or Shinji Ikari and Maya.

You also can't take much of Gaia and Alaya as an actual example of how a planet should behave since our little blue planet is an anomaly compared with the other planets. Gaia tryed to make her own guardian, fucked up with something that had a severed connection with her. Alaya as a whole can't do anything if Gaia decides to simply sic the TA on humanity, on the other hand Alaya can just give the finger to Gaia when it dies.

To be honest, Gaia and Alaya must have "Murderous Bitch" and "Asshole Psychopath" origin for the way the treat each other and their 'children'.

SeiKeo
November 17th, 2011, 11:06 AM
Um I was saying that the main visual differances between Ryougi Shiki and Arcuied just seem to be traits related to Arcuied being a true ancestor. They look really similar once you ignore hair and eye color and factor in the age difference. Which would make sense since if Touko's theory is true Arcuied's body should have been based on Ryougi Shikis?

Although Shiki with marble phantasm would be awesome.


As crazy as it is, this is the best WMG ever.

Kratosirving
November 19th, 2011, 10:53 AM
Relevantly, I might be collaborating with someone to do at least a little one-shot involving Sacchin and another female vampire getting caught up in the HGW. Not completely sure yet though, since we'd have to flush out the backstory plenty.

Eveonder
November 19th, 2011, 12:29 PM
... how the hell did we get into that discussion from 'isn't it sad, Sacchin?'

Spinach
November 19th, 2011, 12:44 PM
I don't know. I really, really do not know.

Lycodrake
April 2nd, 2012, 10:31 AM
Bumping this with an idea: Satsuki stumbles into the true drama, horror, and adventure of being a DA, and the only people she has at her side are Sion and Riesbyfe...and Riesbyfe is fading.

legoguydude
April 3rd, 2012, 05:25 PM
I propose that Sacchin's route ends with her working for the Church, like Solomon.

Thoughts?

Lycodrake
April 3rd, 2012, 05:27 PM
I propose that Sacchin's route ends with her working for the Church, like Solomon.

Thoughts?
Hm...would need to work out why they'd let her survive, along with what would happen to Sion and Riesbyfe. Probably would deal somehow with the 27 DAAs.

Gabriulio
April 3rd, 2012, 06:58 PM
...

[Sign: Sacchin being employed by Akiha to work at the Tohno mansion out of pity. Discuss.

This has semi-canon origins, since one of V-Akiha's victory quotes over Satsuki in MB has "How does a job at the mansion sounds for you, Yumizuka-san?" in it.]

I3uster
April 3rd, 2012, 07:18 PM
I propose that Sacchin's route ends with her working for the Church, like Solomon.

Thoughts?
Since I don't think she'd get anywhere else as a vampire, Satsuki as BA member?

legoguydude
April 3rd, 2012, 09:02 PM
Since I don't think she'd get anywhere else as a vampire, Satsuki as BA member?

Exactly. Only way to iron out the "Ceil and Arc wanting to kill her" complication. Plus, she'll still get to hang out with Ciel-sempai, which could be amusing.

Kuradora
April 4th, 2012, 12:22 AM
Isn't Melty Blood technically her route (but the Bad End)? I remember someone saying that...

Lycodrake
April 10th, 2012, 09:19 AM
Still wanting to see The Dark Thorn Chronicles updated...

legoguydude
April 10th, 2012, 10:14 AM
The what now?

Lycodrake
April 10th, 2012, 10:31 AM
The what now?
Collaboration fanfic that Elf and Kratosirving have/had. IIRC, only two or three chapters are up...
It has Satsuki being found by Forest (Elf's OC), and ending up in Fuyuki before the 5th HGW.