PDA

View Full Version : Fate/complete material III: World material.



Pages : [1] 2 3 4 5

food
April 20th, 2011, 05:26 PM
Everything is stashed on the CM3 wiki site (http://completematerial.pbworks.com/w/page/32479544/Index).

For each translator's unsorted translations, go to the corresponding pages on the side bar.

Admin Edit: See the full Theory of Magic translation here (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pt-oDtq0ow-ZRLmdPC4tRlw9lJGzVHbvLJ2mQDvcjYc/edit), from the CM3 wiki collaborators.

Hyarion
April 20th, 2011, 05:37 PM
"Since Emiya is a Heroic Spirit from the future, he does not have any blessings provided by fame."
"He shot an arrow between the eyes of Gilgamesh and sent him alone into the darkness. The arrow shot at that time was a regular arrow, and from the fact that Emiya gradually began to disappear after this attack, this is probably the limit Emiya’s materialisation. "

Didn't both of these get debated fairly recently? Plus I'm not sure if we had official confirmation that Archer sticking around after getting lethal damage was due to Independent Action, so that's nice.

Tobias
April 20th, 2011, 05:43 PM
I also remember arguing with someone a while back that archer could sword rain outside the UBW, and I think this


Emiya can freely take out and utilize the weapons according to the situation, and he can also assault the enemy by firing many Noble Phantasms from the Bounded Field like arrows in the same way as Gilgamesh’s “Gate of Babylon”.

my provide supporting evidence tp that fact.

Tangerang
April 20th, 2011, 05:45 PM
I also remember arguing with someone a while back that archer could sword rain outside the UBW, and I think this


my provide supporting evidence tp that fact.

...didn't he already do that at several points through the VN? Hell, even Shirou managed to pull a swordrain outside UBW in UBW route.

Tobias
April 20th, 2011, 05:46 PM
yes. the argument seemed quite silly to me.

the other guy seemed to think all instances of that were either archer creating the swords and allowing them to kind of drop on his enemy, or grabbing them out and shooting them with his bow or physically throwing them.

Kotonoha
April 20th, 2011, 05:49 PM
Notdeadfish was food then?

food
April 20th, 2011, 06:01 PM
Altima threatens to microwave my pet fish if I don't come forward.

TypeWannabe
April 20th, 2011, 06:04 PM
yes. the argument seemed quite silly to me.

the other guy seemed to think all instances of that were either archer creating the swords and allowing them to kind of drop on his enemy, or grabbing them out and shooting them with his bow or physically throwing them.

I remember the person you were arguing this with. Man, that was actually hilarious in a pitiable way.

Cruor
April 20th, 2011, 06:59 PM
Altima threatens to microwave my pet fish if I don't come forward.

What would happen if you did this?

Saradin
April 20th, 2011, 07:12 PM
Food's fish would become fish food?

food
April 20th, 2011, 07:22 PM
What would happen if you did this?

I do not know. Apparently someone wrecked some havoc with sockpuppets back in old Beast's Lair. I am not privy to the details, but now sockpuppets are forbidden.

eddyak
April 20th, 2011, 07:24 PM
Life as a Human
This is Emiya Shirou after becoming a Heroic Spirit in the future. He stubbornly trained himself after the Holy Grail War, and pursued the dream of becoming a superhero. However, he soon fell into despair as he realised that his own power was insufficient to save mankind. Before the dying people, Emiya made a pact with the” World” and become a hero that can produce miracles, yet he died a tragic death because of the betrayal of his allies. Although he died of betrayal, he did not hate mankind. However, the “World” ironically gave him the duty as a Heroic Spirit “to slaughter all humans at a particular location when mankind is at the threshold of complete self destruction” --- a “Counter Guardian”.
Interesting. So he started to fall into despair only a short while after he finished the HGW. He was betrayed by his allies, too.


The Archer class originally focuses on long range combat, but Emiya loves melee combat and wishes to conceal his trump card, thus he focuses on melee tactics with Kansho and Bakuya when engaging other Servants.
Thought so. He just does it out of pride- like, "look what I've achieved, despite being an average joe", rather than "lol I'll snipe you from 4km off cos that's reliable".


Emiya’s trump card is firing copied Noble Phantasms as arrows – “Broken Phantasm”. On impact, the magical force will explode, generating overwhelming destructive power. By assaulting melee Servants with this type of long range attack, Emiya is able to turn the odds to his favour.
So this probably solves the whole can-Fragarach-really-hit-Archer-who-has-no-specialisation thing.


In addition, even if Emiya’s spiritual core sustained lethal damage, he can still survive for a short period.
Independent action has a Battle Continuation-like effect?


Clairvoyance: C
The visual ability that is also called “Eagle Eye”. This is a must-have ability of the Archer Class.
I knew I'd seen that somewhere before!


Also worth mentioning is that, as Emiya readies his bow, he will be able to precisely snipe even enemies moving at high speeds as long as they are within a 4km range.
Archer, who possesses Clairvoyance, is able to execute “ultra long-range sniping” with accuracy transcending the realm of men.
Implying he could hit people even further than 4km, but the accuracy is less if he does. ftw.

food
April 20th, 2011, 07:42 PM
Thought so. He just does it out of pride- like, "look what I've achieved, despite being an average joe", rather than "lol I'll snipe you from 4km off cos that's reliable".
The most important factor is probably hiding his secret weapon.


So this probably solves the whole can-Fragarach-really-hit-Archer-who-has-no-specialisation thing.
That is a very interesting thought. I think the interpretation is fair, because the term used is "trump card" (切り札), literally what appears in Fraggle Rock's entry.



Independent action has a Battle Continuation-like effect?
According to CM3, hells yes. However, this only applies to Archer's super high rank Independent Action though.



Implying he could hit people even further than 4km, but the accuracy is less if he does. ftw.

Mmmm, sure?

Tobias
April 20th, 2011, 07:57 PM
Question, does BP status as a trump card preclude invocation of the UBW from being one?

food
April 20th, 2011, 08:02 PM
I do not even understand what Nasu wants UBW to be.

He keeps saying "it's not NP, Archer has no NP", and then he puts it under NP. The vibe I get is that Nasu wants to get across the idea that, Emiya is just this hardworking Joe that sharpened his abilities to the level of contending with demigods and the greatest mankind has to offer.

TL;DR:
Nasu only explicitly called Broken Phantasm "trump card", UBW is just an "ability" (lol, I know eh?).

Tangerang
April 20th, 2011, 08:09 PM
Something like UBW is the 'gun', and Broken Phantasm is a special, extra powerful bullet?

Or to use Kiritsugu, UBW would be a gun, NPs would be normal bullets, BP would be 'origin bullets'?

It's an analogy, work with me here!

Tobias
April 20th, 2011, 08:13 PM
So is the general consensus a person only has one trump card?

food
April 20th, 2011, 08:18 PM
It is kind of premature to read too much into it.

I do not think Nasu has declared exactly what constitutes a "trump card". He might not have thought about Fraggle Rock when he wrote this entry. "Trump card" is just an idiom.

However, if you want to read all Nasuverse Materials like the bible, then you can say Fraggle Rock will only work against Broken Phantasm and nothing else of Archer's, at this point.

Tobias
April 20th, 2011, 08:22 PM
Actually I was thinking about how mushroom head said shiki can't fight and relies on his trump cards, trump cards being plural.

eddyak
April 20th, 2011, 08:26 PM
More like, he considers UBW to be his "base" ability. To us it looks like his ultimate last resort, but to him, it's just that base point where everything he can do comes from.

I reckon sniping someone with a BP would be considered the only thing he has that you could really call a trump card. K&B OverEdge is just a technique used to overcome melee fighters, but a BP would literally take out any Servant short of AvalonSaber and Heracles.

Tobias
April 20th, 2011, 08:34 PM
Melty Blood volume 1 Nasu comments

"At this point, "MELTY BLOOD" caused a major contradiction.
Since this was a fighting game, the position of the protagonist, Tohno Shiki, a character that could participate in combat only by means of trump cards, was reversed, and he became involved in the story as a protagonist that can "fight normally".

"....Right. The characteristics of the characters in "MELTY BLOOD" had either been exaggerated or restrained from what they had been in Tsukihime."

"Using cards as an example, Shiki of Tsukihime would be a 3 of Hearts. But the Shiki of "MELTY BLOOD" would be able to fight normally as a Jack of Spades."

From Comptiq 8 (only a summary of the actual interview so I'll pick it up later to confirm it)

being the pertinent quote, I dunno if this is evidence someone can have multiple trump cards or just mushroom head speaking metaphorically.

eddyak
April 20th, 2011, 08:36 PM
MEoDP and Nanaya mode/assassination techniques?

Tobias
April 20th, 2011, 08:39 PM
something like that. at any rate, up until now I would have identified actually manifesting archer's reality marble as his trump card, but, I am just rethinking things in light of him having a specifically identified one via CM3 in broken phantasms. so I guess it boils down to whether or not somebody can only have a single trump card or as many as they have managed to acquire.

as an example, would barrier of the wind king (attack version) qualify for saber.

food
April 20th, 2011, 08:43 PM
being the pertinent quote, I dunno if this is evidence someone can have multiple trump cards or just mushroom head speaking metaphorically.

Japanese does not distinguish singular or plural explicitly. I think the translator might have put "trump cards" just to be safe.

Tobias
April 20th, 2011, 08:47 PM
oh really? did not know that, lets ignore that part then if there is no way to tell, thanks.

deadfish
April 20th, 2011, 11:50 PM
Food. You want access to the wiki? Cuz. I'm too lazy to add stuff.

food
April 21st, 2011, 12:55 PM
You can PM me the login info.

I will probably add the stuff as a bulk when I get all the Servant info done (which might take a while).

Mazyrian
April 21st, 2011, 01:46 PM
Fragarch works against Death Thorns Gae Bolg, so that it's a trump card.
However, if everyone could only have a single one, it would mean that Fragarch wouldn't work against Flying Death version, which I find somewhat silly.

food
April 21st, 2011, 01:51 PM
Does anyone have a burning desire to see the entry of any particular Servant or ability?

I can work on those first instead of doing it by random order.

meevanhelot
April 21st, 2011, 01:52 PM
Gilgamesh.

Tobias
April 21st, 2011, 01:54 PM
On the off chance there is something new about her eyes, I am going for rider.

Hyarion
April 21st, 2011, 01:56 PM
Caster might have something interesting in there.

food
April 21st, 2011, 01:59 PM
Ok, I will work on Gilgamesh first and move from there.

Mike1984
April 21st, 2011, 02:38 PM
Is there anything in there involving Sakura, at all?

food
April 21st, 2011, 02:51 PM
A little bit. I will get to it after I am done with Gilgamesh.

Mcjon01
April 21st, 2011, 02:52 PM
Is there anything in there involving Sakura, at all?

Well, in one of the interview questions Nasu expressed interest in eventually releasing a re-write of F/SN that cuts out Sakura entirely, gives Shinji his own route and makes him a magus with Rider as his actual Servant, and uses Makidera as the replacement "everyday life heroine" in place of Sakura.

j/k lol

TypeWannabe
April 21st, 2011, 03:09 PM
...yeah, Gilgamesh for me too. Speaking of, does it have F/zero characters too or just F/sn? Even if it did, my vote's still Gilgamesh.

Mcjon01
April 21st, 2011, 03:10 PM
F/SN only. I guess they figured the one guidebook for Zero was enough.

And Gilgamesh is boring, I say do Medea or something.

eddyak
April 21st, 2011, 03:15 PM
If there's not much new/unconfirmed/unknown stuff for Gil, go for Medea.

terraablaze
April 21st, 2011, 03:28 PM
As I have stated again and again I want Nasu's breakdown on what Divinity is supposed to do besides screw you over when Gilgamesh wraps you up in Enikuda. So Gilgamesh would work, Heracles and Cuchulain would also be nice. Other than that I want to see what he says about True Assassin probably the most since we see so little of him in the novel itself.

Mike1984
April 21st, 2011, 03:29 PM
A little bit. I will get to it after I am done with Gilgamesh.

OK, thanks.

The stuff about Rider would be good too, when you have time.

food
April 21st, 2011, 06:52 PM
+Gilgamesh, as requested.

terraablaze
April 21st, 2011, 07:23 PM
+Gilgamesh, as requested.

Thanks, had a feeling Divinity was not really touched on. Also pretty sure that should say half-man-half-God King of Heros.

Also does the part about Archer sniping high-speed targets if the are in his 4km range mean that most of the Servants during the 5th war are incapable of dodging his sniping? Guess we know why he was able to hold that bridge against all the other Servants.

food
April 21st, 2011, 07:31 PM
Fix'd.

Mike1984
April 21st, 2011, 07:33 PM
Thanks, had a feeling Divinity was not really touched on. Also pretty sure that should say half-man-half-God King of Heros.

Shouldn't that be "King of Heroes"?

eddyak
April 21st, 2011, 07:41 PM
(Translator’s Note: Gate of Babylon and Sword Spam are now officially categorised as a form of Magic Resistance.)
Lol.

"Mongrels. Cast all the spells you like, they won't hurt me."

"Fire blas-"

"GATE OF BABYLON!"

"Hblaargh!" *dies*

"See? My magic resistance far surpasses your pathetic spells."

Tobias
April 21st, 2011, 08:07 PM
Hmmm....from that I am ready to call gil's MR no better then B, since it implies ritual magic would be effective, even accounting for his defensive items, and I suspect resisting the command spell would be impossible.

Hyarion
April 21st, 2011, 08:11 PM
The most powerful sword that cannot be duplicated by Unlimited Blade Work.

Ah, that reminds me. Mind taking a look at Excalibur's entry and seeing if there's anything related to UBW in there?

food
April 21st, 2011, 08:55 PM
+ Sakura-related questions in Q & A as per Mike's request.

Mike1984
April 21st, 2011, 09:06 PM
Thanks.

Nothing of any huge interest (as I suspected), but a few moderately interesting little bits of info. I do wonder what

A: Actually Sakura would not develop as the “Black Grail” in any other route. However, when she was chosen by Shirou, “the person she does not wish to lose”, the negative emotions she kept bottled up all these years came flooding out, which accelerated the growth of “All the World’s Evil – Angra Mainyu”.
means, exactly. At what point was Sakura "chosen" by Shirou...?

TypeWannabe
April 21st, 2011, 09:13 PM
Huh. It's also interesting to note that Archer fought things like the Shadow in his life. Wonder how events could have happened to wear he had to fight something like that.

Mike1984
April 21st, 2011, 09:14 PM
Well, I'm just wondering what Nasu means there. Presumably it has to be very early on in HF for it to activate the shadow, but Shirou hadn't "chosen" her at that point, as such, so what is he referring to? Him walking her home?

food
April 21st, 2011, 09:16 PM
http://fsn.seorinwastaken.com/h/HF09-23b-61.jpg


"Senpai, I"
"Don't cry. I understand you're a bad person now."
""
"So I'll protect you. No matter what happens, even if you try to kill yourself
I'll protect you, Sakura."
"Sen… pai."
"I promise. I'll be your superhero."

This.

Mike1984
April 21st, 2011, 09:29 PM
http://fsn.seorinwastaken.com/h/HF09-23b-61.jpg


"Senpai, I"
"Don't cry. I understand you're a bad person now."
""
"So I'll protect you. No matter what happens, even if you try to kill yourself
I'll protect you, Sakura."
"Sen… pai."
"I promise. I'll be your superhero."

This.

Erm, but wasn't Sakura activated as the Grail long before that point?

mewarmo990
April 21st, 2011, 09:30 PM
Cool, someone is translating these. Major props! :)

Is the interview section completely finished yet? Can I do those?

food
April 21st, 2011, 09:32 PM
Erm, but wasn't Sakura activated as the Grail long before that point?

This scene was what came to mind when I read the "chosen" part.

But ya, you are right, she did start chomping Servants before that.


Cool, someone is translating these. Major props! :)

Is the interview section completely finished yet? Can I do those?

The Q & A?

Arai did a bunch already. I picked a few that are amusing. There are still a bunch left, you can sure go ahead. Just make sure you check which ones are done so you don't waste effort.

Mike1984
April 21st, 2011, 09:46 PM
This scene was what came to mind when I read the "chosen" part.

Well, it would be the most obvious one, yes, but it's too late in the story.


But ya, you are right, she did start chomping Servants before that.

If she hadn't, I wouldn't have even asked. That scene quite obviously shows Shirou "choosing" Sakura, but her activation comes much earlier, so I can't see how it is that he is talking about.

I'm assuming he must be talking about the events of the first few days (specifically, the ones which get you into HF in the first place), since she was activated towards the end of the third day (according to the interlude we see immediately after moving onto HF which is repeated from Sakura's viewpoint immediately after the MoS decision), but none of those really seem like him "choosing" her.

Hyarion
April 21st, 2011, 09:50 PM
This was in the route divergence interlude, incidentally. (sniped)


http://fsn.seorinwastaken.com/f/F03-12a-09.jpg

Footsteps echo through the darkness.
The appearing person walks to the worms in the middle of the decay, and…
"Do I have to kill every Master?"
And asks the anticipated question.

"http://fsn.seorinwastaken.com/line8.png"

Of course, it does not need to answer such a question.
All Masters must be killed.
We must take away all Servants.
That is the idea swirling in this basement.
But pushing that aside…

"If you say so, it cannot be helped. Then I shall restrict myself to observation this time."

The thing says so.
A voice of relief and a relaxed air.
After giving a kind smile that has no intention of fighting,

"But it is a bit annoying if that is the case. Out of all the Masters, the daughter of Tohsaka is pretty well-made. If there is a winner, it will probably be her."

It murmurs disappointedly.
"http://fsn.seorinwastaken.com/line8.png"
The slack air returns.
A small changehttp://fsn.seorinwastaken.com/line3.pnga faint emotion of evil fills the room.
The one that disliked conflict was moved by that one word.
It is built on that small movement.
A small crack.
A small opening that should not be opened, which the thing itself does not notice.

food
April 21st, 2011, 09:50 PM
Hehehe, I don't know.

Buy the next material books and find out.

Rockxas
April 21st, 2011, 10:20 PM
Well, I'm just wondering what Nasu means there. Presumably it has to be very early on in HF for it to activate the shadow, but Shirou hadn't "chosen" her at that point, as such, so what is he referring to? Him walking her home?
To enter HF many of your decisions during the first three days have to focus on Sakura, and you get the scene where you take her home and the one with her in the classroom, with so much care from Shirou it's no wonder that she felt "chosen" by him.

Mike1984
April 21st, 2011, 10:53 PM
To enter HF many of your decisions during the first three days have to focus on Sakura, and you get the scene where you take her home and the one with her in the classroom, with so much care from Shirou it's no wonder that she felt "chosen" by him.

Yeah, that's what I assumed he meant....

But, still, it's not like Sakura to feel "chosen" that easily. She has precisely zero self-esteem, and thus tends to attribute Shirou's actions to either his general kindness or just plain co-incidence, rather than any indication of him actually liking her.

deadfish
April 21st, 2011, 11:43 PM
As I have stated again and again I want Nasu's breakdown on what Divinity is supposed to do besides screw you over when Gilgamesh wraps you up in Enikuda. So Gilgamesh would work, Heracles and Cuchulain would also be nice. Other than that I want to see what he says about True Assassin probably the most since we see so little of him in the novel itself.

Covered in Fate Extra. If this guy has some kind of protection that's faith/religious related, like say, the enlightenment under the Bodhi Tree, or whatever that Vlad guy has, Divinity negates it.

Like, lol. I've got the protection of God. But oh shiznitz, you're God.

Mcjon01
April 21st, 2011, 11:52 PM
Would it really negate what Vlad has? Because it explicitly said that it's not God's protection.

deadfish
April 21st, 2011, 11:53 PM
If it says breaks 信仰の加護, I guess it breaks 信仰の加護.

Reduces purge defense too, so it makes a good combo with Ea.

Mcjon01
April 22nd, 2011, 12:07 AM
Huh, well what do you know. I guess it's good to be the king a god.

Lagoonate
April 22nd, 2011, 12:22 AM
Gate of Babylon
Rank: E~A++
Now GOB classify as E-A++ huh?not E-EX anymore, would this mean he only have one ex rank NP(Ea) inside GOB?

Counterguardian
April 22nd, 2011, 12:23 AM
It was never E-EX.

Tangerang
April 22nd, 2011, 12:25 AM
It's always been classified as E-A++

Mcjon01
April 22nd, 2011, 12:27 AM
Now GOB classify as E-A++ huh?not E-EX anymore, would this mean he only have one ex rank NP(Ea) inside GOB?

It's never been ranked E-EX.

Lagoonate
April 22nd, 2011, 12:31 AM
Check in the game.....?! uh yeah u guys right, shame on me 0_o

food
April 22nd, 2011, 12:34 AM
I also don't understand why it is only up to A++, but not EX.

However, I think it has something to do with Ea being the real Noble Phantasm, and Enuma Elish being a mere "state" (if you really like to chew on Nasu's words in CM3).

So maybe Ea is A++ normally, but Enuma Elish is like a non-tangible "style/state" like Nine Lives, so there is really nothing EX in the vault per se.

You guys kind of following me?

Tangerang
April 22nd, 2011, 12:37 AM
Or maybe Ea isn't included in GoB's ranking? For instance, GoB functions as a treasury and also as swordrain. Maybe depending on which weapons he chooses, he can shoot his swordrain out for an A++ attack, but it would never reach EX (because physically shooting Ea at somebody really wouldn't be as effective as activating it). However, on it's own, EA is EX?

Something like that? Not sure if I explained it right.

mewarmo990
April 22nd, 2011, 12:39 AM
You guys kind of following me?
So you're saying that if Gae Bolg was the best NP in Gate of Babylon, the vault would only be B (causality hax) instead of B+ (cruise missile) since its normal state is only B? Hm. But then again, the true form of Gae Bolg is the missile attack, so...

Chalk it up as an other inconsistency, I guess.

Lagoonate
April 22nd, 2011, 12:40 AM
The part with Ea have output similar or higher than Excalibur? if that so i wonder what would be happen if Gil try to compete with Excalibur without enuma elish

food
April 22nd, 2011, 12:44 AM
The thing is both Piercing Death Thorn and Striking Death Flight are legitimate Noble Phantasms.

In CM3, Nasu is saying strictly speaking The Sword of Rupture - Ea is the Noble Phantasm instead of Enuma Elish. You see what's going on here?

Enuma Elish is EX, but Ea doesn't have to be.

It is Ea that is in the vault, not Enuma Elish.

EDIT:

I will give you an example.

Let's say you have a really terrible Servant using Ea. Ea is still A++ no matter what.

However, if you let this really terrible Servant try to fire Enuma Elish, you might get a Rank E blast.

Am I making sense here? lol

The point is that this "max power" attack called Enuma Elish may actually vary, and thus not accounted for by the vault.

mewarmo990
April 22nd, 2011, 01:06 AM
天地乖離す開闢の星 isn't documented as a Noble Phantasm?

But you'd think the character sheet thing would account for it. Oh well.

willyvereb
April 22nd, 2011, 01:10 AM
Q: In Sakura’s Route, what happened to the devoured Gilgamesh? Sabre was blackened and enslaved, but was Gilgamesh’s will too strong to be dominated? Or was he completely digested?
A: He simply cannot be controlled. In fact Gilgamesh cannot be blackened. After being devoured by the Grail, Sakura converted Gilgamesh into mana in haste because she was afraid that Gilgamesh might tear her up from the inside if she does not digest him. However, His Majesty was very hard to digest, “Angra Maingu” must have been plagued by belly-ache (laughter).
Did everyone else miss this part? That reminds me how casually he shrugged of power of Angra Mainyou in Fate/Zero. Also it seems he has resolve and mental strength above Saber's.
I like Sakura and all but I would've loved to see a scene where Gigamesh breaks out of the vomb of Angra mainyou.
It could be hilarious and awesome at once.
For example imagine Shirou at the end of HF while preparing to trace "Excalibur" (damn you, CM3!). Then suddenly the Great Grail explodes in a radiant pilar of light to reveal Gilgamesh. He just wrestled down All Evils in the World and stole the glory from our surprised protagonist.
It would be gold!:D

food
April 22nd, 2011, 01:10 AM
UBW has shown the way.

Just because it is listed one, it doesn't have to be one.

Plus, he actually said Ea is the Noble Phantasm and Enuma Elish is a max power attack (which actually has a variable output depending on Servant stats).


EDIT:

Like how UBW is listed under Noble Phantasm, has a rank, but STILL does not show up in EMIYA's NP rank in Servant Status.

Because it's an "ability".

mewarmo990
April 22nd, 2011, 01:31 AM
Did everyone else miss this part? That reminds me how casually he shrugged of power of Angra Mainyou in Fate/Zero. Also it seems he has resolve and mental strength above Saber's.
I like Sakura and all but I would've loved to see a scene where Gigamesh breaks out of the vomb of Angra mainyou.
It could be hilarious and awesome at once.
For example imagine Shirou at the end of HF while preparing to trace "Excalibur" (damn you, CM3!). Then suddenly the Great Grail explodes in a radiant pilar of light to reveal Gilgamesh. He just wrestled down All Evils in the World and stole the glory from our surprised protagonist.
It would be gold!:D
GLORIOUS

Gilgamesh is a badass. Nasu's version is rather different than how I imagined him to be, but that doesn't change the fact that he is strong enough to be one of those people who can resist and piss off the Powers That Be.

Counterguardian
April 22nd, 2011, 01:35 AM
I like Sakura and all but I would've loved to see a scene where Gigamesh breaks out of the vomb of Angra mainyou.

That little bit kind of gave me a different impression.

Shirou: I'm going to save you Sakura.
Sakura: Oh sempai.

*Sakura screams as Gilgamesh bursts out of her vagina*

Gilgamesh: 'sup guys?

Lagoonate
April 22nd, 2011, 01:35 AM
Make me wonder why UBW listed as E-A++ while it have -1 rank as trait, Nasu retcon about Shirou can't replicated Excalibur and normally we assume A++ rank NP in UBW is excalibur:confused:


That little bit kind of gave me a different impression.

Shirou: I'm going to save you Sakura.
Sakura: Oh sempai.

*Sakura screams as Gilgamesh bursts out of her vagina*

Gilgamesh: 'sup guys?
Gilgamesh is Sakura son? it makes sense now :D

mewarmo990
April 22nd, 2011, 01:42 AM
Gilgamesh is Sakura son? it makes sense now :D
Don't take the bait, Mike! RESIIIIIIST

willyvereb
April 22nd, 2011, 01:59 AM
That little bit kind of gave me a different impression.

Shirou: I'm going to save you Sakura.
Sakura: Oh sempai.

*Sakura screams as Gilgamesh bursts out of her vagina*

Gilgamesh: 'sup guys?I directly wanted to avoid bringing up such connotations. Although I admit at first I had an idea similar to this.

food
April 22nd, 2011, 03:29 AM
Beginning translating a bit of the Theory of Magic section

+Entries regarding Magical Beasts


Also, can someone please enlighten me on how to make hyperlinks connecting contents within a post (and across posts)?

Blastedspider
April 22nd, 2011, 04:10 AM
He simply cannot be controlled. In fact Gilgamesh cannot be blackened. After being devoured by the Grail, Sakura converted Gilgamesh into mana in haste because she was afraid that Gilgamesh might tear her up from the inside if she does not digest him. However, His Majesty was very hard to digest, “Angra Maingu” must have been plagued by belly-ache (laughter).

So... Doest it mean that Gilgamesh can't be controlled even with Command Spells? Or it's just his immunity to AM's curse?

Counterguardian
April 22nd, 2011, 04:18 AM
So... Doest it mean that Gilgamesh can't be controlled even with Command Spells? Or it's just his immunity to AM's curse?

This reminds me. In Fate/Zero Tokiomi pondered whether or not to use a Command Spell to summon Gilgamesh back before he unleashed the full contents of his Gate of Babylon on Lancelot, and Gilgamesh didn't seem to be able to listen to anyone at that point. However, when retreating he didn't do so immediately and teleport like you do when you're ordered to return.

So did Tokiomi use a Command Spell or what?

If he did, I imagine Command Spells would only have that "weight" effect experienced by Archer when ordered to "obey all my commands" given by Rin. That is-



Gilgamesh: EX ranked resistance to anything that requires him to obey someone else.

food
April 22nd, 2011, 04:18 AM
Haha, good question.

What you see here is what I have too, nothing more, nothing less.

It's been a while since I have read Zero. I suspect you might find your answer there.

Tangerang
April 22nd, 2011, 04:27 AM
So... Doest it mean that Gilgamesh can't be controlled even with Command Spells? Or it's just his immunity to AM's curse?

More like AM Corruption and Command Spell obedience check against different 'stats'

CS requires supah MR, AM corruption requires supah ego

deadfish
April 22nd, 2011, 04:35 AM
Beginning translating a bit of the Theory of Magic section

+Entries regarding Magical Beasts


Also, can someone please enlighten me on how to make hyperlinks connecting contents within a post (and across posts)?

Hm? Didn't I do most of htat already?

food
April 22nd, 2011, 04:39 AM
O man, did you?

I only saw the Moby Dick question. Did you also do the entry in The Theory of Magic?


EDIT:

I see what you meant.

Yes you did. I am just filling the cracks.

No overlap or wasted effort so far.

Brynhilde
April 22nd, 2011, 04:58 AM
This reminds me. In Fate/Zero Tokiomi pondered whether or not to use a Command Spell to summon Gilgamesh back before he unleashed the full contents of his Gate of Babylon on Lancelot, and Gilgamesh didn't seem to be able to listen to anyone at that point. However, when retreating he didn't do so immediately and teleport like you do when you're ordered to return.

So did Tokiomi use a Command Spell or what?

If he did, I imagine Command Spells would only have that "weight" effect experienced by Archer when ordered to "obey all my commands" given by Rin. That is-



Gilgamesh: EX ranked resistance to anything that requires him to obey someone else.

IIRC Tokiomi did use the Command Seal in the end, but that was really unclear, I agree.

deadfish
April 22nd, 2011, 04:59 AM
Cool. Now, psst. Gimme mail address.

terraablaze
April 22nd, 2011, 07:38 AM
Kotomine says something about command spells having the opposite effect then the one desired so I just assumed they never worked.

Counterguardian
April 22nd, 2011, 07:51 AM
I thought he meant it in the way of the Command Spell getting the job temporarily done, but then when it wears off you have one pissed off King of Heroes to deal with. And then stuff gets undone.

So, net loss.

eddyak
April 22nd, 2011, 08:28 AM
This reminds me. In Fate/Zero Tokiomi pondered whether or not to use a Command Spell to summon Gilgamesh back before he unleashed the full contents of his Gate of Babylon on Lancelot, and Gilgamesh didn't seem to be able to listen to anyone at that point. However, when retreating he didn't do so immediately and teleport like you do when you're ordered to return.
Don't think he did.


Make me wonder why UBW listed as E-A++
It isn't.

Tobias
April 22nd, 2011, 08:33 AM
*checks



yes it is.

eddyak
April 22nd, 2011, 08:55 AM
Hm? I thought it was ???, like all the others.

Mcjon01
April 22nd, 2011, 09:04 AM
His NP rank in his stats is question marks. UBW itself is E-A++. And I think people have been arguing about the A++ part since forever.

eddyak
April 22nd, 2011, 09:58 AM
Ranked down from A+++?

food
April 22nd, 2011, 11:13 AM
A+++ is actually not "one rank up" from A++. A+++ just means the weapon or the attribute has "the status of A, but can power-burst to 4 times A temporarily". The pluses are kind of like modifier.

The "rank up" from A is EX, but you do not get to EX just by one rank up. We might actually get this scenario of ranking up from A and still being at A.

Rank down from A+++ would actually give you B+++.

Your base value get ranked down from A to B, your multipliers remain unchanged (4 times base value).

eddyak
April 22nd, 2011, 11:51 AM
Avalon?

It becomes A++ because it renders him practically immortal, but can't become EX since with him it doesn't take him to fairyland.

TypeWannabe
April 22nd, 2011, 11:58 AM
No eddyak. Shirou can trace a perfect Avalon, so it doesn't get a rank down.

Lagoonate
April 22nd, 2011, 12:25 PM
Archer can't use Avalon since he doesn't have connection with Saber so i assume that A++ would be something else, maybe something like these?

A: Divine constructs like Ea and Excalibur are non-replicable. There might be some degraded NPs with similar performance in stock though. Also, since sword is becoming his origin, the weapons that he has stored are fundamentally limited to close combat.

gemini-saga
April 22nd, 2011, 12:28 PM
A: Divine constructs like Ea and Excalibur are non-replicable. There might be some degraded NPs with similar performance in stock though. Also, since sword is becoming his origin, the weapons that he has stored are fundamentally limited to close combat.

By this quote I get the impression that Shirou can make a Drill sword that uses a red beam >_>

food
April 22nd, 2011, 12:30 PM
Haha, it's obviously Calib-

Blastedspider
April 22nd, 2011, 01:03 PM
A Heroic Spirit with a Rank in Monster ∙ Magical Beast
I'm confused. Does that part mean that Gorgon should be classified as Monstrous Beast? Or she belongs to Magical Beasts/Monsters (魔獣) in general?

Tangerang
April 22nd, 2011, 01:08 PM
Maybe UBW and GoB aren't ranked by the level of NPs they can produce but by some other concept?

food
April 22nd, 2011, 01:16 PM
I'm confused. Does that part mean that Gorgon should be classified as Monstrous Beast? Or she belongs to Magical Beasts/Monsters (魔獣) in general?

The "Monster, Magical Beast" tag is like an ability in the Grail War. In the original text, it was said Rider has a "rank (ランク)" in it. The phrase is important because it signify it is a skill, not a classification.

Rider herself, as the Gorgon, is a Magical Beast, and is very likely a Divine Beast (super old, uber powerful, God-tier abilities).

EDIT:
Maybe I should italicise it to make it clear they are together so people don't get confused.

EDIT2:
Fix'd and made it more clear. Good feedback.

Dartz
April 22nd, 2011, 02:53 PM
The Pinnacle of Phantasmal Species – Dragons
Dragons, or Magical Beasts similar to Dragons, have members in all classes of Magical Beasts (Monstrous, Phantasmal, and Divine Beasts). Dragons are always thought to be the greatest species within their corresponding classes. Because there are dragons of the Monstrous, Phantasmal, and Divine classes, they have been involved with mankind since before the Age of Gods. They have also left many legends in the field of thaumaturgy. (Translator's Note: Dragons can be really weak or really strong. What Nero had was a true Dragon in Nasu's new broader definition, but of a lower class, of course.)

So Nrvnqsr had a monster-class dragon after all? That's pretty cool.

Hyarion
April 22nd, 2011, 03:02 PM
Rider herself, as the Gorgon ... is very likely a Divine Beast (super old, uber powerful, God-tier abilities).

Nah. Her divinity decreased to the lowest level due to her Magical Beast rank, so Divine Beast doesn't seem possible to me.

But then Moby Dick is a Divine Beast, so who knows what the classification means.

Mike1984
April 22nd, 2011, 03:09 PM
Archer can't use Avalon since he doesn't have connection with Saber so i assume that A++ would be something else, maybe something like these?

A: Divine constructs like Ea and Excalibur are non-replicable. There might be some degraded NPs with similar performance in stock though. Also, since sword is becoming his origin, the weapons that he has stored are fundamentally limited to close combat.

But, HF Shirou did replicate Excalibur. And it wasn't a "degraded NP with similar performance", either, because he'd have known if it was....

meevanhelot
April 22nd, 2011, 03:11 PM
Here we go again.

I pretty much just ignore that quote now.

terraablaze
April 22nd, 2011, 03:12 PM
But, HF Shirou did replicate Excalibur. And it wasn't a "degraded NP with similar performance", either, because he'd have known if it was....

I tried that "Shirou would know better" during the discussion about whether Saber Alter was holding back during Sparks Liner High, they all claimed he was super insane and an unreliable narrator at that point. You are going to need a new argument.

food
April 22nd, 2011, 03:15 PM
So Nrvnqsr had a monster-class dragon after all? That's pretty cool.

Ya, notice the new definition is a lot looser. It even includes "dragon-mimics" as Dragons. So ya, if it looks like a dragon, it probably is a dragon. However there is not guarantee that said dragon is a powerful one.


Nah. Her divinity decreased to the lowest level due to her Magical Beast rank, so Divine Beast doesn't seem possible to me.

But then Moby Dick is a Divine Beast, so who knows what the classification means.

That was just my theory, because Gorgon is kind of the only monster so far that qualifies the "living meat-grinder" caliber power of Divine Beasts.

EDIT:

Actually, Nasu called Cthulhu "Evil God". You got your semi-canon nod right there. Divine Beast.

Mike1984
April 22nd, 2011, 03:28 PM
I tried that "Shirou would know better" during the discussion about whether Saber Alter was holding back during Sparks Liner High, they all claimed he was super insane and an unreliable narrator at that point. You are going to need a new argument.

But UBW doesn't work that way. If Shirou asks for Excalibur, he either gets Excalibur, his best effort at Excalibur or nothing. He doesn't subconsciously go "hmm, I don't seem to be able to trace that, so let's see if Archer has something a bit like it that I can trace".

Hyarion
April 22nd, 2011, 03:29 PM
@food/arai/Koto/anyone else with a copy of CM3: does Excalibur happen to have any extra info under its profile?

It's not like the recurring arguments are going to go away, but who knows, maybe a new scrap of info would at least make them more interesting.

food
April 22nd, 2011, 03:33 PM
I think I have peddled all the information in the General Forums, but if you want something concrete, I can translate that single entry now.

Not going to tackle a Servant entry at the moment, need to replenish moon rune power...

Hyarion
April 22nd, 2011, 03:35 PM
It's probably worth a look, if you're up to it.


But UBW doesn't work that way.

And how would you know that? Considering Shirou is basically forging a completely new blade every time he projects, UBW is not as cut-and-dry as you seem to think.

...Not to get into an argument about UBW though -- I'm just pointing out that you're going off of assumptions.

terraablaze
April 22nd, 2011, 03:56 PM
But UBW doesn't work that way. If Shirou asks for Excalibur, he either gets Excalibur, his best effort at Excalibur or nothing. He doesn't subconsciously go "hmm, I don't seem to be able to trace that, so let's see if Archer has something a bit like it that I can trace".

Maybe Not-Excalibur is his best effort. There is that difference between "I can project Avalon perfectly", Archer level projection, and the stuff we see. (hell that bow he projects in Fate does not even look like Archers).

meevanhelot
April 22nd, 2011, 04:01 PM
Yeah, "I can get it close" means the best he could ever manage is something so shit it can't even be considered the same weapon.

Man, Nasu is such a troll.

Mike1984
April 22nd, 2011, 04:03 PM
Maybe Not-Excalibur is his best effort. There is that difference between "I can project Avalon perfectly", Archer level projection, and the stuff we see. (hell that bow he projects in Fate does not even look like Archers).

Yeah, but that's not what it says. It says that there may be "degraded NPs with similar performance in stock". I.e. totally different NPs that happen to act the same.


And how would you know that? Considering Shirou is basically forging a completely new blade every time he projects, UBW is not as cut-and-dry as you seem to think.

...Not to get into an argument about UBW though -- I'm just pointing out that you're going off of assumptions.

But, that's not how it works. Shirou looks in his Reality Marble for a copy of the sword, pulls out the "blueprints" for that sword and then traces it. He cannot "accidentally" mistake another sword for Excalibur any more than he can trace the Jewelled Sword from a blueprint or use the Azoth sword as a base to project it over. To him, every sword is fundamentally different, even if they look the same and have similar properties.

terraablaze
April 22nd, 2011, 04:05 PM
Yeah, "I can get it close" means the best he could ever manage is something so shit it can't even be considered the same weapon.

Man, Nasu is such a troll.

Considering it is so powerful close could be relative. It could be the most powerful weapon he has by far but it is only about 30-60% of the true power. Sort of like how Night on the Blood Liar is supposed to faithfully recreate what people fear to the point of asking whether it is real or not real is pointless, but then there are people to powerful to replicate in full like Kouma and Arcuied. Oh and then he makes people like Nrvnqsr stronger for some reason lol.

Keyne
April 22nd, 2011, 04:06 PM
Maybe Not-Excalibur is his best effort. There is that difference between "I can project Avalon perfectly", Archer level projection, and the stuff we see. (hell that bow he projects in Fate does not even look like Archers).
I assume that his reality marble didn't have the materials yet. Archer's bow comes from the future and could have been made from things not yet analysed by Shirou.

Lagoonate
April 22nd, 2011, 04:12 PM
Or maybe it just his projection at that time not good enough to project Archer bow?( iirc Shirou said so)

And about A++ in UBW imo it might be degraded NP with similar performance with Ea thus give it rank A++

terraablaze
April 22nd, 2011, 04:28 PM
Just remembered that since Excalibur is on the level of Divine Spirits that technically puts it beyond True Magic. Sounds like something that might be difficult to replicate.

food
April 22nd, 2011, 04:40 PM
+ Excalibur as requested by Hyarion. Filed temporarily under the Misc. section.

Tobias
April 22nd, 2011, 04:53 PM
interesting, but I dont see anything there we didnt already know.

Hyarion
April 22nd, 2011, 04:54 PM
using the wishes of mankind as raw material.

Interesting. When this whole thing originally came up I suggested that this might be one of the big problems -- he can probably "read" the blueprint since "the wishes of mankind" isn't an alien concept, but recreation is impossible as Shirou's not capable of comprehending it on the magnitude of the world. People were a bit skeptical that it actually contained "wishes" as a material though -- "it was created in response to the wishes of mankind", I think it was?

terraablaze
April 22nd, 2011, 04:54 PM
+ Excalibur as requested by Hyarion. Filed temporarily under the Misc. section.

Love how ominous sounding Last Phantasm sounds. Maybe Nasu will later clarify that Unlimited Blade Works can't make Last Phantasms, until Emiya does just that and then he will have to explain the exception (wasn't the scene Avalon was used called "Last Phantasm"?).

food
April 22nd, 2011, 04:54 PM
interesting, but I dont see anything there we didnt already know.
Told you I have peddled it in General already.


Love how ominous sounding Last Phantasm sounds. Maybe Nasu will later clarify that Unlimited Blade Works can't make Last Phantasms, until Emiya does just that and then he will have to explain the exception (wasn't the scene Avalon was used called "Last Phantasm"?).

Sorry to rain on your parade, but that was just Engrish (I kept it to be in sync with arai).

The Japanese original reads "Strongest Phantasm".

Tobias
April 22nd, 2011, 04:59 PM
Sorry to rain on your parade, but that was just Engrish (I kept it to be in sync with arai).

The Japanese original reads "Strongest Phantasm".


this felt like it should have came with some kind of bitch slap image.

terraablaze
April 22nd, 2011, 05:00 PM
Told you I have peddled it in General already.



Sorry to rain on your parade, but that was just Engrish (I kept it to be in sync with arai).

The Japanese original reads "Strongest Phantasm".

So it goes from being a Last Phantasm to a Strongest Phantasm. Still seems more like a title than a fact since "hey Enuma Enlish". Also pretty impressive sounding.

Hyarion
April 22nd, 2011, 05:01 PM
I think it's more of a "strongest of their class" thing, since Ea isn't classified as a holy sword.

food
April 22nd, 2011, 05:02 PM
this felt like it should have came with some kind of bitch slap image.

I don't mean any insult.

It's just that the Engrish sounds a lot more badass than what it actually supposed to mean.

TypeWannabe
April 22nd, 2011, 05:03 PM
http://hollywoodhatesme.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/bitchslap.jpg

Obligatory. Now if only Namor had said what food had said, it would have been perfect.

Tobias
April 22nd, 2011, 05:05 PM
I don't mean any insult.

It's just that the Engrish sounds a lot more badass than what it actually supposed to mean.

Oh I know, just the quick smack down came off as kind of funny.

food
April 22nd, 2011, 05:14 PM
Interesting. When this whole thing originally came up I suggested that this might be one of the big problems -- he can probably "read" the blueprint since "the wishes of mankind" isn't an alien concept, but recreation is impossible as Shirou's not capable of comprehending it on the magnitude of the world. People were a bit skeptical that it actually contained "wishes" as a material though -- "it was created in response to the wishes of mankind", I think it was?

Yes. It was probably not a good choice of word. A better translation of the original Japanese is "using.... as the basis" instead of "using... as raw material".

The process is basically you take the wishes of people, and make them true through this "crystallisation" process at the Earth's core.

EDIT:
Fix'd.

EDIT2:

So it goes from being a Last Phantasm to a Strongest Phantasm. Still seems more like a title than a fact since "hey Enuma Enlish". Also pretty impressive sounding.
"Last Phantasm" and "Strongest Phantasm" are one and the same, just like how "Caladbolg" and "False Spiral Sword" are the same.

Last Phantasm currently is pretty much a hollow category, because it was only mentioned in Excalibur. It is just pretty much another adjective for "Excalibur is strong", at the moment.

Mcjon01
April 22nd, 2011, 06:37 PM
Or maybe it's just that Excalibur is, in fact, the strongest phantasm, but Ea is the sword that cuts through phantasms to reveal the "truth".

I mean, it almost sounds pseudo-philosophic enough to be something Nasu would say.

food
April 22nd, 2011, 06:42 PM
The truth is that there is no Strongest Phantasm?

*Head explodes*

deadfish
April 22nd, 2011, 09:53 PM
Here we go again.

I pretty much just ignore that quote now.

Oh, there are plenty of things to be ignored here. If it doesn't look legitimately new or something he's going to touch on in the future, I'd ignore it.


"Birth of heroes"
It's been explained that Heroic Spirits are beings that heroes whom belief has been gathered upon become after death, but heroes of myths and legends can be born by the gathering of belief. Also, there are those who those who make a contract of some sort with the world when they were alive and as compensation become Heroic Spirits after death. In the Fifth War, Hasan Sabaha was a hero that actually existed, and Herakles and Medusa are ones of legends. Also, Emiya and Altria are beings that became (or will become) Heroic Spirits after their contract with the world. Those who have become Heroic Spirits are freed from the constraints of time and are moved to the Throne of Heroes, existing to the outside of the World.


So what was that flashback of Medusa's? A delusion? 

Then there's the thing about Berserker summoning in CM3 versus Fate Zero.

Tobias
April 22nd, 2011, 09:58 PM
Oh no, I see a split in BL soon. New age retro BL that uses CM, then orthodox canonicism that rejects anything not backed up specifically from fate.

TypeWannabe
April 22nd, 2011, 10:03 PM
I have the most powerful feeling you are 100% correct, sadly. I mean, how the hell does that even work?

Mike1984
April 22nd, 2011, 10:05 PM
Oh, there are plenty of things to be ignored here. If it doesn't look legitimately new or something he's going to touch on in the future, I'd ignore it.


"Birth of heroes"
It's been explained that Heroic Spirits are beings that heroes whom belief has been gathered upon become after death, but heroes of myths and legends can be born by the gathering of belief. Also, there are those who those who make a contract of some sort with the world when they were alive and as compensation become Heroic Spirits after death. In the Fifth War, Hasan Sabaha was a hero that actually existed, and Herakles and Medusa are ones of legends. Also, Emiya and Altria are beings that became (or will become) Heroic Spirits after their contract with the world. Those who have become Heroic Spirits are freed from the constraints of time and are moved to the Throne of Heroes, existing to the outside of the World.


So what was that flashback of Medusa's? A delusion? 

Then there's the thing about Berserker summoning in CM3 versus Fate Zero.

OK, wait, so you're saying that Rider never really existed, and was just created because people "believed" in her?

That makes precisely zero sense, because I don't recall anyone believing that Medusa was an extremely hot purple-haired chick who was actually a pretty kind and caring person deep down....


Oh no, I see a split in BL soon. New age retro BL that uses CM, then orthodox canonicism that rejects anything not backed up specifically from fate.

Nah, I only reject the bits of CM that specifically contradict Fate (such as the statement that Shirou can't trace Excalibur at all), or at least which do not fit with Nasu's obvious original intentions.

food
April 22nd, 2011, 10:05 PM
The "memories" of mythical heroes who did not exist were simply an aggregate of tales, "life stories" that reflect the wish of mankind.

deadfish
April 22nd, 2011, 10:07 PM
Her "life story" already involved her origin as being an aggregate of human wishes.

What is this, inception?

Why does that not even work with Kojirou then?

Mike1984
April 22nd, 2011, 10:08 PM
The "memories" of mythical heroes who did not exist were simply an aggregate of tales, "life stories" that reflect the wish of mankind.

But Rider's canon "past" does not in any way fit with the general perception of her. If she was a genuinely "fake" hero, then she would be a Chaotic Evil monster with snakes for hair, because that's how she's generally perceived. The only way it makes sense for her to differ from that perception is if she was genuinely like that in reality.

Tobias
April 22nd, 2011, 10:10 PM
How much vodka am I going to have to drink to reconcile the apparently creation of actual, real heroes with the contradiction of that statement embodied in fake assassin?

food
April 22nd, 2011, 10:11 PM
It's possible to have the character to be fictional from head to toe, including memories.

It just makes the Rider scene in HA kind of pointless, because it's "Shirou listening to a tall tale".

TypeWannabe
April 22nd, 2011, 10:12 PM
So, Heracles did not exist, he was just the prototype mass of tales around Greek Paul Bunyan and crap?

Oh God, Nasu is trying to transform this place into the Disc.

Mike1984
April 22nd, 2011, 10:12 PM
How much vodka am I going to have to drink to reconcile the apparently creation of actual, real heroes with the contradiction of that statement embodied in fake assassin?

Twice as much as Nasu had obviously drunk before he wrote CM3?

I think you'd better call the hospital and schedule a stomach pumping for tomorrow morning....


It's possible to have the character to be fictional from head to toe, including memories.

Yes, but if Rider were created from the stories about her, then she should actually resemble those stories. And, whilst I will admit that my Greek mythology is a little rusty, I don't recall there being anything about Medusa being a kind-hearted hot chick who dressed in a bondage outfit and fought by throwing over-sized nails at her enemies....


It just makes the Rider scene in HA kind of pointless, because it's "Shirou listening to a tall tale".

Yeah, if her memories aren't real it does somewhat diminish the importance of her recalling them....

Rockxas
April 22nd, 2011, 10:12 PM
How much vodka am I going to have to drink to reconcile the apparently creation of actual, real heroes with the contradiction of that statement embodied in fake assassin?
We'll find out after we wake up and count the bottles. *Serves a glass of vodka*

Mcjon01
April 22nd, 2011, 10:18 PM
Maybe the legends make them real after the fact, and once they're real it supersedes the legends, which is why they can end up being different than the legends describe.

This is not serious, I am drinking.

Tobias
April 22nd, 2011, 10:20 PM
This is not serious, I am drinking.

I'm about to start.


Heroes can be created from scratch just from legends.

Sasaki kojiro didn't exist. Because he didn't exist, the throne, which can create heroes from scratch, or at least possesses heroes conjured from legend, instead tosses out a guy that had some kind of pathological hatred of birds.


...

deadfish
April 22nd, 2011, 10:20 PM
Actually, I'm looking at the writer information for CM3 in the back of the book.
Kinoko isn't listed but a whole bunch of other guys are.....

Writers:
SAIKU
Sawami Tsuyoshi
Tanaka Takashi
Tani K



Have we been trolled?

Tangerang
April 22nd, 2011, 10:22 PM
For no particular reason, now all I can picture is a bunch of people in a room going 'high-five?' in a Borat voice.

Tobias
April 22nd, 2011, 10:26 PM
Actually, I'm looking at the writer information for CM3 in the back of the book.
Kinoko isn't listed but a whole bunch of other guys are.....

Writers:
SAIKU
Sawami Tsuyoshi
Tanaka Takashi
Tani K



Have we been trolled?

....


....


....look, I wouldn't normally ask, but while I intend to try my hand at google, I doubt I will be able to learn anything, is there any chance you could find out what role, if any, mushroom head actually had in the creation of this book?


Up until now I have justified any changes he made, even contradictory ones, as something he had the write to do as fate's author, so.....?

TypeWannabe
April 22nd, 2011, 10:29 PM
Sawami Tsuyoshi? I swear he is a forum member, or was. HE TROLLS.

Tangerang
April 22nd, 2011, 10:29 PM
....


....


....look, I wouldn't normally ask, but while I intend to try my hand at google, I doubt I will be able to learn anything, is there any chance you could find out what role, if any, mushroom head actually had in the creation of this book?


Up until now I have justified any changes he made, even contradictory ones, as something he had the write to do as fate's author, so.....?

Depends if Nasu authorized it I guess. Since Type-moon is a company and not a person anymore.

Nasu: 'it's probably going to be more fucking powerlevels... hmm' *points at a bunch of people working on Mahoyo* "You, you, you, and you, come over here, I want you to answer these questions, just make up random stuff and make it as troll as possible"

deadfish
April 22nd, 2011, 10:31 PM
....


....


....look, I wouldn't normally ask, but while I intend to try my hand at google, I doubt I will be able to learn anything, is there any chance you could find out what role, if any, mushroom head actually had in the creation of this book?


Up until now I have justified any changes he made, even contradictory ones, as something he had the write to do as fate's author, so.....?

Type Moon's (not anyone in particular) mentioned as doing the supervising editing. Alot of the new info, not the rehases, had to have come from somewhere, so I figure it's just a bunch of guys asking for some info on a few things, then incorporating that and the stuff that already existed in the game in a slightly different way, then Kinoko or some other TM guy just giving it a cursory lookover.

Mike1984
April 22nd, 2011, 10:32 PM
Maybe the legends make them real after the fact, and once they're real it supersedes the legends, which is why they can end up being different than the legends describe.

Yes, but the Greek perception of Medusa was even worse than ours....


Heroes can be created from scratch just from legends.

Sasaki kojiro didn't exist. Because he didn't exist, the throne, which can create heroes from scratch, or at least possesses heroes conjured from legend, instead tosses out a guy that had some kind of pathological hatred of birds.


...

What about my point?

Surely the fact that the Throne has the ability to create heroes from legends but still threw out a fake Kojiro (maybe the real one was just not "important" enough for his legend to be turned into reality) is less of an issue than the fact that the version of Medusa we see is nothing like her legend.


Actually, I'm looking at the writer information for CM3 in the back of the book.
Kinoko isn't listed but a whole bunch of other guys are.....

Writers:
SAIKU
Sawami Tsuyoshi
Tanaka Takashi
Tani K



Have we been trolled?

Oh, wow....

So, you're saying that Nasu never even wrote CM3?

Well, that certainly explains a lot, and it also justifies ignoring anything which contradicts the game in any way....


Depends if Nasu authorized it I guess. Since Type-moon is a company and not a person anymore.

Well, if Nasu never wrote it himself, then it both explains any contradictions with the original VN and also justifes entirely ignoring anything in CM which does contradict the VN, even if there exists some way to wriggle around it. What matters is Nasu's interpretation of the story, not TM's. He wrote FSN, and only he can say what it "really" means.

Tangerang
April 22nd, 2011, 10:33 PM
I wonder if it's more akin to Zero then where he just gave instructions and supervised?

Rockxas
April 22nd, 2011, 10:35 PM
Emiya and Altria are beings that became (or will become) Heroic Spirits after their contract with the world. Those who have become Heroic Spirits are freed from the constraints of time and are moved to the Throne of Heroes, existing to the outside of the World.
But but but, didn't Nasu say that she was going to Avalon and would remain there because she was the once and future king or something like that? Like, right in CM3!?


Q: In the Saber route, Saber terminated her contract with the World by breaking the Grail by her own will, but in the end, wouldn't a hero of the caliber of King Arthur end up being removed from the cycle of transmigration as a Heroic Spirit after death?
A: King Arthur's goin' to Avalon.
Among the English, King Arthur's still a person of the present. After all, she's the "future King who will be back"
@[email protected]

Mcjon01
April 22nd, 2011, 10:36 PM
Oh, wow....

So, you're saying that Nasu never even wrote CM3?

Well, that certainly explains a lot, and it also justifies ignoring anything which contradicts the game in any way....



Well, if Nasu never wrote it himself, then it both explains any contradictions with the original VN and also justifes entirely ignoring anything in CM which does contradict the VN, even if there exists some way to wriggle around it. What matters is Nasu's interpretation of the story, not TM's. He wrote FSN, and only he can say what it "really" means.

Except that a lot of that stuff is in the Q&A which is 100% Nasu.

Tangerang
April 22nd, 2011, 10:37 PM
Q: In the Saber route, Saber terminated her contract with the World by breaking the Grail by her own will, but in the end, wouldn't a hero of the caliber of King Arthur end up being removed from the cycle of transmigration as a Heroic Spirit after death?
A: King Arthur's goin' to Avalon.
Among the English, King Arthur's still a person of the present. After all, she's the "future King who will be back"


And now I can't help but imagine Saber adopting a terminator pose as she fade away, and then just before she disappears, she says in Arnold's voice "I will be back"

Tobias
April 22nd, 2011, 10:40 PM
And then saber was luna's dad.

Mike1984
April 22nd, 2011, 10:41 PM
I wonder if it's more akin to Zero then where he just gave instructions and supervised?

Well, perhaps, but Zero contains relatively little that contradicts the VN (and, where it does, it usually does so in a sensible manner). Plus, the canonicity of Zero is a lot harder to question, because if you assume one part of it is non-canon, then the whole story falls apart, whereas you can easily ignore bits of the CM books without affecting the canonicity of the rest.

Also, wow, I see that Elephants actually can defeat servants....

Rockxas
April 22nd, 2011, 10:42 PM
And then saber was luna's dad.
That'd make the part where Luna's father and Gozaburo put on seifuku, cat ears and go to school much better.

Tobias
April 22nd, 2011, 10:49 PM
Elephants stuff.

Very funny, drinks. Kudos for the effort though

Mike1984
April 22nd, 2011, 11:22 PM
Very funny, drinks. Kudos for the effort though

Well, I actually fell for it, to some extent (mainly because it's no less stupid than several of the other things Food has just posted...).

Hyarion
April 23rd, 2011, 12:21 AM
Except that a lot of that stuff is in the Q&A which is 100% Nasu.

Case in point.

Q: What is the limit of replication in UBW? The highest level of NP (sword types) is probably Ea, but while it might be impossible for Shirou, could Archer make it? Also, under the meaning of weapons, to what extent can he make modern weapons? Must it be only blade types or can he make guns and mobile weapons?
A: Divine constructs like Ea and Excalibur are non-replicable. There might be some degraded NPs with similar performance in stock though. Also, since sword is becoming his origin, the weapons that he has stored are fundamentally limited to close combat.

So anyways, let me take a stab at what happened here.

Q&A: Nasu's exact words.
Everything else: A few people organizing Nasu's notes into something readable.

Because seriously, I can't believe that theory of magic section was just some random crap from some other guy. Plus there's too many completely original things scattered around (new catalysts, some new prominent Association families, random facts like how the Association has only ever had one director, etc.) that I doubt would be in if Nasu hadn't written them down somewhere, and since having Nasu make a list of stuff that should go in CM3 that's as random as that seems a bit ridiculous, I'm going to wager that it's pulled from his notes (goofs like that line from the Birth of Heroes section probably notwithstanding.)

Blastedspider
April 23rd, 2011, 02:52 AM
"Birth of heroes"
This is a joke, right?

Or it rather referencing to the fact, that Medusa (and her sisters) did born from wishes of mankind? I don't know what to say about Heracles, though.

mewarmo990
April 23rd, 2011, 03:05 AM
Are people really debating this?

No, Nasu probably has better things to do than personally write another fan artbook. Yes, the material is pulled from his lore notes.

TypeWannabe
April 23rd, 2011, 08:59 AM
HaHA! The elephants still live!

eddyak
April 23rd, 2011, 10:54 AM
And then saber was luna's dad.
With laser eye beams.

Saber would be awesome with laser eye beams.

TypeWannabe
April 23rd, 2011, 12:58 PM
Man, why didn't humanity believe in heroes all having laser eye beams and Jesus hands?

eddyak
April 23rd, 2011, 01:20 PM
Jesus hands?

http://imgur.com/NHg6V.jpg

food
April 23rd, 2011, 07:15 PM
OK, sorry if I am beating on a dead horse, but I went to check out the entry arai quoted. Here is what I got out of it:

"... but mythical and legendary heroes that did not exist can still be born via the aggregation of belief..."

The entry is trying to say that, heroes who existed only in legends can still be born due to belief. And also, the entry said Herakles and Medusa are legendary heroes, but it did not explicitly say they are legendary AND fake.

Depends on how hard you interpret the words, the meaning can be muddled, but I think we are kind of over-reacting over this. Things should be clarified in the future a la the "who projected the Rho Aias in UBW" hoopla.

eddyak
April 23rd, 2011, 07:23 PM
I knew we'd got it wrong.

food
April 23rd, 2011, 07:44 PM
That still leaves out Kojiro Sasaki though.

I guess as long as there is someone bearing some semblance to your legend, you don't get made from scratch based on your legend?

Mike1984
April 23rd, 2011, 08:41 PM
Well, presumably the "real" Kojiro existed but just wasn't important enough to get into the throne.

But, anyway, glad that's settled, because Rider not being a "real" heroic spirit wouldn't make sense.

deadfish
April 23rd, 2011, 08:49 PM
OK, sorry if I am beating on a dead horse, but I went to check out the entry arai quoted. Here is what I got out of it:

"... but mythical and legendary heroes that did not exist can still be born via the aggregation of belief..."

The entry is trying to say that, heroes who existed only in legends can still be born due to belief. And also, the entry said Herakles and Medusa are legendary heroes, but it did not explicitly say they are legendary AND fake.

Depends on how hard you interpret the words, the meaning can be muddled, but I think we are kind of over-reacting over this. Things should be clarified in the future a la the "who projected the Rho Aias in UBW" hoopla.

Food, I'm looking at that as a non-essential clause, not an essential one, in the case of Herakles and Medusa. Otherwise, there wouldn't be any point in comparing them to Hasan and saying Hasan actually existed.

TypeWannabe
April 23rd, 2011, 08:50 PM
Indeed, in the end it was rider that stopped us from going ape-crap all over BL.

Mike1984
April 23rd, 2011, 09:03 PM
Food, I'm looking at that as a non-essential clause, not an essential one, in the case of Herakles and Medusa. Otherwise, there wouldn't be any point in comparing them to Hasan and saying Hasan actually existed.

Yeah, but Medusa not existing does not make sense, because she was clearly not "created from her legend". If she were, she would act like her legend, and she does not.

Satehi
April 23rd, 2011, 09:06 PM
Maybe he chose Herakles and Medusa because they are well known as mythological heroes, and because there wasn't actually any heroes created by aggregation of belief in FSN?

food
April 23rd, 2011, 09:07 PM
Curse you Nasu.

I have never spent so much time on one friggin' sentence in my life.


Food, I'm looking at that as a non-essential clause, not an essential one, in the case of Herakles and Medusa. Otherwise, there wouldn't be any point in comparing them to Hasan and saying Hasan actually existed.
Maybe I am being over-zealous in my attempt at the sentence.

You know what bro, give me your shot at translating that sentence literally, word for word. I will see where we are interpreting it differently.

deadfish
April 23rd, 2011, 09:12 PM
Eh. I already did.

But whatever. I'm just taking it in context with the rest of the paragraph. Here's the entire section anyway. Again.


Difference between Heroic Spirits and Servants

Heroic Spirits were Heroes who have left behind great feats in legends after death and become subjects of belief.
Normally, a Heroic Spirit is summoned by the world as power that protects humans.
The ones summoned by humans are Servants. However, Heroic Spirits cannot be controlled by humans, and to summon them, the Holy Grail or something with power of that sort must be used.
The Servant system of Fuyuki summons Heroic Spirits with the power of the Greater Grail. Heroic Spirits summoned as Servants are like "emanations", copies created using the information of the main body of the Heroic Servant.

Birth of Heroic Spirits
It's been explained that Heroic Spirits are beings that heroes whom belief has been gathered upon become after death, but heroes of myths and legends can be born by the gathering of belief even if they didn't exist. Also, there are those who those who make a contract of some sort with the world when they were alive and as compensation become Heroic Spirits after death. In the Fifth War, Hasan Sabaha was a hero that actually existed, and Herakles and Medusa are legendary heroes. Also, Emiya and Altria are beings that became (or will become) Heroic Spirits after their contract with the world. Those who have become Heroic Spirits are freed from the constraints of time and are moved to the Throne of Heroes, existing to the outside of the World.

Heroic Spirit summoning

Heroic Spirits are beings cut off from the time axis and can be summoned in any era, regardless of past and future. However, the only one that can summon the main body of the Heroic Spirits is the "world", and alas, humans can't summon the main body and can only summon their emanations, the Servants. Speaking of which, the information (souls) making up the Servants return to the main body at the same time as the death of the Servant, and the main body can know, as records, about the actions of the Servants as if reading a book.

food
April 23rd, 2011, 09:20 PM
No, I meant just the sentence "but heroes of myths and legends can be born by the gathering of belief even if they didn't exist".
But hey, you translated the whole blob, less work for me.

Your translation seems to be same as mine...

You are saying it should be taken context then?


EDIT:
Your first iteration did not have the "even if they didn't exist" clause, the whole sentence can then be directly interpreted as Legendary Hero = fake.

deadfish
April 23rd, 2011, 09:24 PM
Yes. By itself, it doesn't really mean much. The problem is when you put that together with Medusa and Hercules, which is only a few sentences away and written with the above stuff in mind.



Your first iteration did not have the "even if they didn't exist" clause, the whole sentence can then be directly interpreted as Legendary Hero = fake.

That my dear food, is what happens when someone is in a hurry and has to do other stuff.

food
April 23rd, 2011, 09:29 PM
This is turning into a bible study.

Mike1984
April 23rd, 2011, 09:32 PM
Yes. By itself, it doesn't really mean much. The problem is when you put that together with Medusa and Hercules, which is only a few sentences away and written with the above stuff in mind.

However, Medusa does not act anything like a version of her born from the "gathering of belief" would be expected to act.

I'm not sure whether that is what it was intended to mean or not, and honestly I don't care, because if it is what it intended to mean then I'm just going to assume it's non-canon anyway, due to the fact that it totally contradicts what we know of Rider and wasn't even written by Nasu.

food
April 23rd, 2011, 09:34 PM
Am I the only one who is picturing mike putting his hands on his ear, closing his eyes, and screaming the above post out loud?



That my dear food, is what happens when someone is in a hurry and has to do other stuff.
This is THE stuff. There's no other stuff.

deadfish
April 23rd, 2011, 09:37 PM
Nope.

Mike1984
April 23rd, 2011, 09:52 PM
Am I the only one who is picturing mike putting his hands on his ear, closing his eyes, and screaming the above post out loud?

Heh, lol.

Sorry, but, no, that's not what I'm doing. I'm just saying that, just because it was printed in some TM-authorised book, that does not mean it overrides game canon.

food
April 23rd, 2011, 09:58 PM
O, and for whoever asked about True Magic and effects like True Magic a few days back, I added the CM3 entry under "Theory of Magic".

terraablaze
April 23rd, 2011, 09:59 PM
However, Medusa does not act anything like a version of her born from the "gathering of belief" would be expected to act.

I'm not sure whether that is what it was intended to mean or not, and honestly I don't care, because if it is what it intended to mean then I'm just going to assume it's non-canon anyway, due to the fact that it totally contradicts what we know of Rider and wasn't even written by Nasu.


Not taking a side right now but out of curiosity, how do you think a Medusa formed from belief would act?
Keep in mind that there is no such thing as a canon in mythos and there are many versions.
Things that are the same between the original myths and Nasu's version:
chthonic being check
Daughter of a god and goddess therefore probably a goddess originally check
Turned into a monster by Athena check
Lived on a shapeless island check
Killed by Perseus check
Turns people into stone check

Edit: what is with that sad face at the top of my post, I can't get rid of it

Yeah I saw thanks, not quite what I was asking. Kind of weird that Avalon is only True Magic, must be top tier.

Mike1984
April 23rd, 2011, 10:05 PM
Not taking a side right now but out of curiosity, how do you think a Medusa formed from belief would act?
Keep in mind that there is no such thing as a canon in mythos and there are many versions.
Things that are the same between the original myths and Nasu's version:
chthonic being check
Daughter of a god and goddess therefore probably a goddess originally check
Turned into a monster by Athena check
Lived on a shapeless island check
Killed by Perseus check
Turns people into stone check

Erm, like an actual monster? You know, evil. That's how people perceive her (especially in ancient times), so that's how a fake version of her should be.

Nothing in her legend suggests Medusa being a kind, caring person, and certainly nothing suggests her being highly agile and fighting with two nails attached by a chain. All of that is stuff Nasu pulled out of thin air with no mythological basis whatsoever, and if she isn't real it just doesn't make sense.

Mcjon01
April 23rd, 2011, 10:07 PM
And if the myths themselves are different in the Nasuverse...?

TypeWannabe
April 23rd, 2011, 10:07 PM
Well, in her legend, not the one by Nasu which has her as an Anthropomorphic Personification-ish thing, she was a priestess seduced by Poseidon and they then go jiggy with it in Athena's temple, which was a big no-no, and Athena turned her into the Gorgon after that.

EDIT: Did not state my point. Point is, she could have been a nice person beforehand, but gods are dicks and it was probably very easy to be a real bitch after getting turned into a monster.

terraablaze
April 23rd, 2011, 10:12 PM
Erm, like an actual monster?

Nothing in her legend suggests Medusa being a "good person", and certainly nothing suggests her being highly agile and fighting with two nails attached by a chain. All of that is stuff Nasu pulled out of thin air with no mythological basis whatsoever, and if she isn't real it just doesn't make sense.

Uh what? She does act like a monster though (can you say "eye gouging orgasm"), especially when she is in her Lv 100 Gorgon form.
As for her being a good person (?), she was apparently nice enough for Poseidon to sex up in some versions. Also she is used as a guardian for basically every Greek temple we know of, such a nice girl. We never really hear about much of her conduct before or after her transformation.
I think it is the original myths that count, not the ones that are popular now, the Greeks probably had a lot more. Plus she is technically a divine spirit as well so who knows how that affects all this (Herakles has Divinity too I noticed).

TypeWannabe
April 23rd, 2011, 10:13 PM
That accounts for crap and you should know that. Most Greek heroes were the offspring of gods.

terraablaze
April 23rd, 2011, 10:16 PM
That accounts for crap and you should know that. Most Greek heroes were the offspring of gods.

They were both divine beings in this case though. So no demi-goddess status in this case.

Blastedspider
April 24th, 2011, 01:27 AM
in the case of Herakles and Medusa. Otherwise, there wouldn't be any point in comparing them to Hasan and saying Hasan actually existed.
But that piece of info contradicts what we know about her past greatly.

Medusa was divine spirit or at least treated as Godess, born from mankind's view of ideal woman, along with her sisters, who, according to the legends should be same monsters as she was, if not stronger. Medusa did lost her divinity due becoming a human-eating monster (reffered as Gorgon lv. 100 by Nasu himself in Q&A), which is supported even by article about Magical Beasts. Medusa consumed her sisters (which is completely against any version myth or legend). Medusa did have some connection with ancient Greek Godess of Earth, and because of that ancient mirror from Greece was used as a catalyst.

Nothing of this is possible if she is actually creation of Throne, without any real basis. The most egregious example is her Pegasus. He did actually existed from the age of gods, but Rider doesn't? How can that be?
Same with Herakles. Although there isn't any flashbacks with him (or where is?), Nasu at least referenced to his developement during life (the thing about Twelve Labors being gift of the gods and that he mastered Nine Lives after killing Hydra) it seems unlikely that he just popped out from nothingness.

Considering that this part of article contradicts Nasu's own words (in Artoria case), it's not unlikely that was a mistake.

EDIT*: Just caught my attention. "Born by the gathering of belief"? Isn't it the way that all Gods are born in Nasuverse? If it is so, that can explain Medusa's case. She was Divine Spirit, was born from by aggregation of belief, was treated as a Godess, became Monster etc.
Dunno about Herakles. But, come to think of it, he has high level of divinity and was accepted as one of the gods...

food
April 24th, 2011, 01:52 AM
Not really.

Gods are born Elementals, so they are nature Spirits first, human phenomenons second.

If this CM3 stuff is legit, the Heroic Spirits born purely from the belief of humans are closer to True Demons, except their polar opposite.

Blastedspider
April 24th, 2011, 02:01 AM
Gods are born Elementals, so they are nature Spirits first, human phenomenons second.
I'm pretty sure, Medusa and her sisters did born via some supernatural way.

food
April 24th, 2011, 02:06 AM
Then it gets into the Inception kind of scenario like arai mentioned a few pages back.

You have mankind's influence on a God, who was born purely from the wish of mankind and has a history created by mankind (as in the whole thing was already written out, by mankind). So you have human influence in human influence in human influence.

Blastedspider
April 24th, 2011, 02:20 AM
Found it.

In the first place, they had been originally been old indigenous Gods in the Greek world.
But, Athena, despising their beauty, stole the “worship of the people” from the three sisters and banished them to the “Formless Island”.
The one who had been the recipient of Athena’s wraith was the last sister, Medusa, but her older sisters, thinking of their little sister, came with her to the “Formless Island”, and from then on, they were to be rumored to be monsters by the people.
But rumors are only rumors.
They didn’t become monsters and they passed their time, no different than before.
Leaving aside the much talked about Medusa, the first sister and the second sister were literally, “perfected” goddesses.
The first sister, Stheno.
Graceful gestures, an abundance of elegance, well-thought conduct….this goddess was in every single way said to be the ideal woman.
From just hearing their name spoken by her, men lost their senses from joy, and pledged eternal loyal to her.
The second sister, Euryale.
Carefree gestures, beaming smiles, innocent behavior….this goddess was in every single way said to be the ideal girl.
From just hearing their name spoken by her, men shook from the honor and promised to guard her with their lives.
These two goddesses didn’t have the mystic eyes nor the monstrous strength of Medusa.
They were merely girls that were only immortal.
Athena said deceitfully that that the three sisters didn’t grow old because they were monsters.
But that was a lie.
Unlike the gods of Olympus who would age without consuming the golden apple, these women – particularly Stheno and Euryale – were goddesses born with perfect immortality as “idols”.
They were the embodiment of the longing of men.
In exchange for never growing, they were the frailest creatures in the world.
Girls forever without the power to fight, starving if alone, and unable to survive without someone else’s help.
That was the “divine core” of the Gorgon sisters.
They look now as they did as when they were created and will never change until their destruction.
Except, however, for the third sister, the inherently failed creation.
The third sister, Medusa.
Unlike her elder sisters, she didn’t possess the skill of a “perfect” goddess.
The two older sisters were “immortality”, but Medusa’s was imperfect.
As a result, Medusa, despite being the youngest sister, “grew” ahead of her elder sisters, and became revered as a monster different from her sisters.
… But to defend her good name, Medusa is an excellent goddess.
The Gorgon sisters are deifications of the same natural phenomenon.
Copies, clones, are another way of putting it.
But because of an error during her birth perhaps, or maybe for some purposeful reason, only the youngest sister, Medusa, had suffered from a copy error.
The elder sisters embodied perfect “immortality”, but Medusa didn’t have “immortality”.
However, as compensation, Medusa had powers her sisters did not.
Eyes of petrification. High level natural interference powers. Remarkable physical prowess.
All of that could be said to be power needed to protect her sisters who could not live in the natural world.

EDIT: If this part of CM3 is not a mistake, my point of view probably to that Mcjohn01 said earlier.
Aggreagation of beliefs creates can create something and that something will became HS after death. It's probably similiar to Avenger's case (a normal person who did became something supernatural just because everyone believed that he is).

food
April 24th, 2011, 03:22 AM
+Wizard Marshall under "Theory of Magic".

Tangerang
April 24th, 2011, 03:34 AM
'old man time'?

huh

food
April 24th, 2011, 03:41 AM
Yar, Nasu be trollin' yous like no tomorrow.

deadfish
April 24th, 2011, 05:13 AM
Father Time. That's the Japanese translation of the idea.

deadfish
April 24th, 2011, 05:18 AM
Wait food. What page was the translation of the Zelretch entry working from?

TypeWannabe
April 24th, 2011, 10:18 AM
"his physique is strong and tough"

Calling it right now, plus his apparent trolling abilities, Surfing Zelretch is canon.

food
April 24th, 2011, 12:57 PM
Wait food. What page was the translation of the Zelretch entry working from?

Oops, I put it under the wrong category. It is on Page 6, "Record of Heaven's Feel".

EDIT:

Fix'd now.

Mike1984
April 24th, 2011, 01:37 PM
Well, in her legend, not the one by Nasu which has her as an Anthropomorphic Personification-ish thing, she was a priestess seduced by Poseidon and they then go jiggy with it in Athena's temple, which was a big no-no, and Athena turned her into the Gorgon after that.

EDIT: Did not state my point. Point is, she could have been a nice person beforehand, but gods are dicks and it was probably very easy to be a real bitch after getting turned into a monster.

Of course, but that's not how she's generally percieved. If she's real, it makes perfect sense, but if she's fake then it does not, because I don't know anyone who thinks of Medusa as a hot purple-haired girl in a bondage suit who fights using nails and cares deeply for those around her.


I think it is the original myths that count, not the ones that are popular now, the Greeks probably had a lot more. Plus she is technically a divine spirit as well so who knows how that affects all this (Herakles has Divinity too I noticed).

Yes, and in the original myths she was likely thought of as being even worse, because the Greeks would have considered her "action" of being raped in the temple as unforgiveable.


Found it.

In the first place, they had been originally been old indigenous Gods in the Greek world.
But, Athena, despising their beauty, stole the “worship of the people” from the three sisters and banished them to the “Formless Island”.
The one who had been the recipient of Athena’s wraith was the last sister, Medusa, but her older sisters, thinking of their little sister, came with her to the “Formless Island”, and from then on, they were to be rumored to be monsters by the people.
But rumors are only rumors.
They didn’t become monsters and they passed their time, no different than before.
Leaving aside the much talked about Medusa, the first sister and the second sister were literally, “perfected” goddesses.
The first sister, Stheno.
Graceful gestures, an abundance of elegance, well-thought conduct….this goddess was in every single way said to be the ideal woman.
From just hearing their name spoken by her, men lost their senses from joy, and pledged eternal loyal to her.
The second sister, Euryale.
Carefree gestures, beaming smiles, innocent behavior….this goddess was in every single way said to be the ideal girl.
From just hearing their name spoken by her, men shook from the honor and promised to guard her with their lives.
These two goddesses didn’t have the mystic eyes nor the monstrous strength of Medusa.
They were merely girls that were only immortal.
Athena said deceitfully that that the three sisters didn’t grow old because they were monsters.
But that was a lie.
Unlike the gods of Olympus who would age without consuming the golden apple, these women – particularly Stheno and Euryale – were goddesses born with perfect immortality as “idols”.
They were the embodiment of the longing of men.
In exchange for never growing, they were the frailest creatures in the world.
Girls forever without the power to fight, starving if alone, and unable to survive without someone else’s help.
That was the “divine core” of the Gorgon sisters.
They look now as they did as when they were created and will never change until their destruction.
Except, however, for the third sister, the inherently failed creation.
The third sister, Medusa.
Unlike her elder sisters, she didn’t possess the skill of a “perfect” goddess.
The two older sisters were “immortality”, but Medusa’s was imperfect.
As a result, Medusa, despite being the youngest sister, “grew” ahead of her elder sisters, and became revered as a monster different from her sisters.
… But to defend her good name, Medusa is an excellent goddess.
The Gorgon sisters are deifications of the same natural phenomenon.
Copies, clones, are another way of putting it.
But because of an error during her birth perhaps, or maybe for some purposeful reason, only the youngest sister, Medusa, had suffered from a copy error.
The elder sisters embodied perfect “immortality”, but Medusa didn’t have “immortality”.
However, as compensation, Medusa had powers her sisters did not.
Eyes of petrification. High level natural interference powers. Remarkable physical prowess.
All of that could be said to be power needed to protect her sisters who could not live in the natural world.

EDIT: If this part of CM3 is not a mistake, my point of view probably to that Mcjohn01 said earlier.
Aggreagation of beliefs creates can create something and that something will became HS after death. It's probably similiar to Avenger's case (a normal person who did became something supernatural just because everyone believed that he is).

The problem with that is that it specifically states that their true nature was different from the rumours about them. Which, again, does not make sense if they did not really exist.

terraablaze
April 24th, 2011, 01:49 PM
No dice Mike, it was consensual. Also I was talking about the older myths that are now probably lost to us, the ones we have now still acknowledge her origin as a very beautiful women, Takeuchi (or Nasu) decided this meant bondage. I think you are getting a little trapped by literalism. Also caring for people you like is in no way special in Greek Mythos, basically every being had someone they looked out for. Everyone cares for the people they care about. Rider is clearly willing to screw everyone else over in the process. What do you think a monster is supposed to act like? "Hey I see something moving, I AM GOING TO KILL IT NOW." which incidentally she seems to do in Lv 100 Gorgon form.

Mike1984
April 24th, 2011, 02:02 PM
No dice Mike, it was consensual.

Well, then, that would be seen as even worse.


Also I was talking about the older myths that are now probably lost to us, the ones we have now still acknowledge her origin as a very beautiful women, Takeuchi (or Nasu) decided this meant bondage. I think you are getting a little trapped by literalism. Also caring for people you like is in no way special in Greek Mythos, basically every being had someone they looked out for. Everyone cares for the people they care about. Rider is clearly willing to screw everyone else over in the process. What do you think a monster is supposed to act like? "Hey I see something moving, I AM GOING TO KILL IT NOW." which incidentally she seems to do in Lv 100 Gorgon form.

The point is that Rider is a basically decent person, which goes totally against her legend. As does the way she fights, for that matter.

Blastedspider
April 24th, 2011, 02:17 PM
Which, again, does not make sense if they did not really exist.
I meant this scenario*:

(Genesis of the legend about three unearthly beautiful women) = birth of the Gorgon sisters -> establishment of cult of Gorgons as perfect goddesses -> birth of classic Greek Gods - banishment of old gods to the Shapeless Islands, and loss of followers -> (Medusa's transformation into monster -> her death at the hand of Perseus) = creation of modern version of the legened.

meevanhelot
April 24th, 2011, 02:18 PM
@teraablaze: So the original legend had Medusa as a goddess who fought using nails on chains living on an island with her two sisters who was never raped by Poseiden (rather, he gifted her with Pegasus)?

Nah, I'm with mike on this one. What you're saying makes no sense.

terraablaze
April 24th, 2011, 02:18 PM
No it does not go totally against her legend, also like I said before most of the figures in Greek myth were decent people if the metric you are using is caring about some people.
If you ask me Gilgamesh is more "Good" then she is because he actively pursues saving people through death, sort of like Saver but for different reasons (also he will let some people live).
As for how she fights she got those nails for the Grail War as a representation of her personality, she can probably fight with them because she is a goddess and therefore awesome at everything.

Edit: a common occurrence in Greek myth is the gods being replaced and then turned into adversaries (like the Titans), the Olympians are like the third set of gods they had. Nasu seems to be using this to make Medusa in his version a primordial goddess that was dethroned. As in they first ascended due to the belief of previous generations and then is turned into a monster by beliefs that come later.

food
April 24th, 2011, 02:31 PM
+The Method of Defeating Servants

EDIT:

Does "The Method of Defeating Servants" sound weird to you?

Mike1984
April 24th, 2011, 02:36 PM
I meant this scenario*:

(Genesis of the legend about three unearthly beautiful women) = birth of the Gorgon sisters -> establishment of cult of Gorgons as perfect goddesses -> birth of classic Greek Gods - banishment of old gods to the Shapeless Islands, and loss of followers -> (Medusa's transformation into monster -> her death at the hand of Perseus) = creation of modern version of the legened.

Yeah, that's sensible, but that's not what CM3 (supposedly) says.


Edit: a common occurrence in Greek myth is the gods being replaced and then turned into adversaries (like the Titans), the Olympians are like the third set of gods they had. Nasu seems to be using this to make Medusa in his version a primordial goddess that was dethroned. As in they first ascended due to the belief of previous generations and then is turned into a monster by beliefs that come later.

But, if she were a primordial god who never truly existed, but rather was created in the Throne from people's beliefs, then why doesn't she act like one?

Kotonoha
April 24th, 2011, 02:42 PM
Everyone cares for the people they care about.

Shirou, is that you?

Tangerang
April 24th, 2011, 02:48 PM
People enjoy things they enjoy!
People die when they are killed!
Bad things are bad!

TypeWannabe
April 24th, 2011, 02:52 PM
I love it.

Mcjon01
April 24th, 2011, 03:08 PM
Hey, so, just a thought:

Deadfish was talking about how Medusa's being classed as a being who didn't really exist but was born through belief was hardcore trollin' since it would make her a being born from belief with the fictional backstory of being born from belief, Inception style, buuuut... what if that's what it was talking about in the first place? The fact that as a god she was born from people's worship, albeit with the transcription errors that make her different from her sisters. In which case, any significant amount of Divinity could get you classified as the second type of Heroic Spirit.

TypeWannabe
April 24th, 2011, 04:19 PM
One things for sure:

http://files.sharenator.com/We_need_to_go_deeper_Blond_Btch_comp-s400x203-120047-535.jpg

terraablaze
April 24th, 2011, 06:26 PM
Hey, so, just a thought:

Deadfish was talking about how Medusa's being classed as a being who didn't really exist but was born through belief was hardcore trollin' since it would make her a being born from belief with the fictional backstory of being born from belief, Inception style, buuuut... what if that's what it was talking about in the first place? The fact that as a god she was born from people's worship, albeit with the transcription errors that make her different from her sisters. In which case, any significant amount of Divinity could get you classified as the second type of Heroic Spirit.

That is basically what I was trying to get at.
Doesn't Ishkander have ranks in Divinity because of rumors? And Gilgamesh's Divinity dropped because he personally doesn't like the gods. Divinity is kind of a weird thing.

What if for example Herakles was an otherwise normal early human who was a bastard child and to save face the parents claimed he was the child of Zeus. Turns out he is awesome at killing stuff people start believing it and BAM one day he wakes up and some of his DNA and physiology has changed "Oh wow beating this lion to death is super easy now, I really am the son of Zeus!". And then the gods either play along or don't know any better.

Edit: @my adoring audience
Yes it is tautology and it sounds funny but I phrased it that way because Mike's argument sounded equally as silly. I mean if you like a person you generally act a certain way, even people we call "Evil" do this it says nothing about whether a person will be classified as "Good" later on.

deadfish
April 24th, 2011, 07:17 PM
+The Method of Defeating Servants

EDIT:

Does "The Method of Defeating Servants" sound weird to you?

How to Defeat a Servant

Counterguardian
April 24th, 2011, 07:25 PM
+The Method of Defeating Servants

EDIT:

Does "The Method of Defeating Servants" sound weird to you?

How to Ass-whoop Servants for Dummies, First Edition.

Mcjon01
April 24th, 2011, 08:03 PM
Here are some things that I promise are from CM3 and not an entirely unrelated source, so everyone here should take it as undisputed canon, nyah.


Neco-Arc
Height: 60cm
Weight: 8.0kg
Species: Neco Spirit, Great Cat Family
Power Source: Canned Cat Food
Killer Technique: True Ancestor Beam

A mysterious cat from the underground kingdom "Great Cats Village". Though, doubt remains as to whether or not it’s okay to call a living being that understands human speech, fires beams from its eyes, and flies through the sky with jets a “cat”.

Neco-Arc Ears
Ears that are quick to learn secrets. They become smaller with maturity, and when they are completely gone she will become a splendid True Ancestor.
…or so they say.

Neco-Arc Eyes
Both eyes have a visual acuity of 20.0. Her killer technique "True Ancestor Beam" fires from here. By the way, just after firing she is blinded by the glare.

Neco-Arc Mouth
Mouth that spews the fire of hell that consumes all foes, "Gehenna Flame", and scathing remarks. She’s a self-proclaimed gourmet.

Neco-Arc Pads
Though usually they can’t be seen because they are kept out of sight, they squish just like a cat’s. There is a therapeutic effect.

Neco-Arc Stomach
Filled with stomach acid comparable in strength to Kinoko Nasu’s. However, the strength is 100 times stronger than Kinoko’s.

Neco-Arc Tail
Packs a punch. She’ll get angry if you grab it.

Neco-Arc Feet
They transform into a rocket engine nozzle, allowing her to fly at will. To begin with, is this really a living being?

terraablaze
April 24th, 2011, 08:12 PM
Are you mocking our effort to see if what is in CM3 is canon or something? I already said I wasn't taking one particular side in this case. What happened to deadfish and food, are they talking about this in PMs now? I want to know what conclusion they came to.

eddyak
April 24th, 2011, 08:13 PM
Neco-Arc Mouth
Mouth that spews the fire of hell that consumes all foes, "Gehenna Flame", and scathing remarks. She’s a self-proclaimed gourmet.
K-Kotomine?! What are you doing here?

Counterguardian
April 24th, 2011, 08:14 PM
Neco-Arc Eyes
Both eyes have a visual acuity of 20.0. Her killer technique "True Ancestor Beam" fires from here. By the way, just after firing she is blinded by the glare.

http://i947.photobucket.com/albums/ad315/Counterguardian/General/06.jpg

Mcjon01
April 24th, 2011, 08:21 PM
Are you mocking our effort to see if what is in CM3 is canon or something?

Nah, I just have a 12 page paper about the trade relations between Japan and the US due on Tuesday, so my mind is desperately coming up with creative ways to not work on it.

terraablaze
April 24th, 2011, 08:26 PM
Nah, I just have a 12 page paper about the trade relations between Japan and the US due on Tuesday, so my mind is desperately coming up with creative ways to not work on it.

I have 4 8-page papers all due in two weeks let's slack together.

@food
thanks for the information on killing Servants, it is information you could guess but it is nice to have something nailed down. It was always a bit weird how vague Servant physiology was (they don't need blood but they need a heart, wat).

Mcjon01
April 24th, 2011, 09:34 PM
Ho, people always wonder what a true demon would be like in the Nasuverse since we've yet to see one, but it turns out they were under our noses all along:

Neco Spirit
The spirit of a cat... is not what this is. A Neco Spirit is a living being shaped from the Fifth Imaginary Element. There is no relation to cats.
In short, they are demons.

food
April 24th, 2011, 09:54 PM
Ho, people always wonder what a true demon would be like in the Nasuverse since we've yet to see one...

Give DDD a shot.

TypeWannabe
April 24th, 2011, 10:03 PM
But aren't those artificial demons caused by some disease? or wait, is there more to the plot...

food
April 24th, 2011, 10:04 PM
The Merem-like guy wields the real McCoy.

terraablaze
April 24th, 2011, 10:06 PM
Give DDD a shot.

I would if I could :(

food
April 24th, 2011, 10:08 PM
But Mcjon01 said he can read moon runes.

Mcjon01
April 24th, 2011, 10:38 PM
Ugh. I have a bit of proficiency in Japanese, but Kinoko-go is too intimidating. I've had both volumes of DDD sitting on my bookshelf for the better part of a year and I've yet to open them.

food
April 24th, 2011, 10:48 PM
Haha, seems like you are on my tier then. Playing through HA has proven to be so painfully slow and torturous, I gave up.

Translating small paragraphs is ok for me, but involves a lot of dictionary humping.

deadfish
April 24th, 2011, 11:32 PM
Ugh. I have a bit of proficiency in Japanese, but Kinoko-go is too intimidating. I've had both volumes of DDD sitting on my bookshelf for the better part of a year and I've yet to open them.

He isn't particularly anymore difficult than some other writers. I think anyway.

Mcjon01
April 25th, 2011, 12:00 AM
It's not his writing style, per se, so much as it is the things he tends to start rambling about. I'm sure it would be easy-ish if I ever bothered to get used to that kind of language, but...

Now, if he decides to write a novel set in the exciting world of Japanese business, count me in. That'd be cake.

terraablaze
April 25th, 2011, 07:08 AM
Am I the only person here who is willing to try fiction that is not clear as purified drinking water?
Quick, what did everyone here think of Killer 7?

Mcjon01
April 25th, 2011, 08:23 AM
There's a difference between murky fiction and literally not being able to read every other word. My vocabulary at the moment is so heavily slanted towards understanding business terms and keigo that even slice-of-life stuff can be a pain to work through, and fantasy stuff like Nasu's is even a step beyond that in terms of "number of things I can't read".

And Killer 7 had crummy gameplay, it should have gotten a Wii release.

terraablaze
April 25th, 2011, 09:34 AM
There's a difference between murky fiction and literally not being able to read every other word. My vocabulary at the moment is so heavily slanted towards understanding business terms and keigo that even slice-of-life stuff can be a pain to work through, and fantasy stuff like Nasu's is even a step beyond that in terms of "number of things I can't read".

And I am scared of things that are different, but I still have good advice.

Oh I guess that makes sense, I suppose not knowing the words would make it kind of difficult. Is his diction that unusual?

Mcjon01
April 25th, 2011, 09:41 AM
I imagine not, especially within the genre he writes. I just have a rather specialized (and limited) vocabulary at the moment.

Edit noted and rejected. Conceptually I have no problem with Killer 7, I simply find it unplayable. Perhaps the PS2 version was an improvement over the nightmare that was trying to achieve fine control with a Gamecube controller, but I wouldn't know.

terraablaze
April 25th, 2011, 09:46 AM
I imagine not, especially within the genre he writes. I just have a rather specialized (and limited) vocabulary at the moment.

Edit noted and rejected. Conceptually I have no problem with Killer 7, I simply find it unplayable. Perhaps the PS2 version was an improvement over the nightmare that was trying to achieve fine control with a Gamecube controller, but I wouldn't know.

I figured as much, honestly I had no problem with the controls but then again the Gamecube was my only gaming console for 4 years. I found it a little to easy to be honest, I was shooting down Heaven's Smiles one after the other.