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SeiKeo
April 30th, 2011, 09:58 PM
What am I looking at right now?

You're looking at Diplomacy, one of the greatest board games ever invented. In it, seven players take control of the powers of World War One (England, France, Germany, Austria, Italy, Turkey, and Russia) and battle for control of Europe. What makes it interesting is that there is no random chance, and all the powers have units with the same capabilities. Because of this, strategy and diplomacy take center stage.

The Map

http://i1128.photobucket.com/albums/m492/LeopardBear/Fall1900-Fullnames-Nounits.jpg?t=1304214085

Light gray spaces are impassable.

The Rules

PDF copy of the rules (http://www.wizards.com/avalonhill/rules/diplomacy.pdf)

Your goal is to take control of 18 supply centers, the territories with the black circles. Taking control of one allows you to build a unit, and loosing one will force you to delete a unit. You may have as many units as you have supply centers.

There are two kinds of units: armies and fleets. Armies can move on all land spaces, while fleets can move on water and coastal spaces.

You can order your units to move to another province, support a unit's move, hold their position, support a unit holding, or order a fleet to convoy an army across water.

There are five phases in the game:

Spring moves: Units are given orders
Spring retreats: Units that have been forced out of their region may retreat or disband
Fall moves: Same as Spring moves
Fall retreats: Same as Spring retreats
Builds: You may build or disband units, depending on whether you gained or lost supply centers.

If you're unsure of what might happen if you make a move, you can get jDip, an application that allows you to test moves and tactics. (http://jdip.sourceforge.net/) (This is also the program I'll be using to resolve orders)

Why is this in the RP forum?

Because Dark Pulse told me to put it here.

I want to play!

Great! Post your preference for a country in the thread. Also, post how long you'd like for each game phase. We can do 48 hours, 72 hours, or longer if people think they need it.

England: Mike1984
France: Nerroth
Germany: Alfheimwanderer
Austria: Chaos Greyblood
Italy: Theocrass
Turkey: Brynhilde
Russia: Ivan The Mouse

alfheimwanderer
April 30th, 2011, 10:02 PM
Germany, 48 hours, please!

Mike1984
April 30th, 2011, 10:23 PM
Hmm, I think I'll have a go at this, as England (and, yes, I know I'm going to lose horribly...). As for the game phase, I have no idea, so I'll say 48 hours, since I'm usually reasonably active.

SeiKeo
April 30th, 2011, 10:24 PM
Hmm, I think I'll have a go at this, as England (and, yes, I know I'm going to lose horribly...). As for the game phase, I have no idea, so I'll say 48 hours, since I'm usually reasonably active.

For Queen and Country, Mike?

Mike1984
April 30th, 2011, 10:35 PM
For Queen and Country, Mike?

Well, it was them or Russia, and I thought I might as well go for England. Plus, it's hardly like I'm being patriotic given that I'm going to get annihilated :p

Oh, BTW, your link to the rules is broken....

SeiKeo
April 30th, 2011, 10:40 PM
Oh, BTW, your link to the rules is broken....

Derp. Fixed.

Nerroth
April 30th, 2011, 10:53 PM
You know, I always wanted to try and play Imperial Diplomacy (http://www.variantbank.org/results/rules/i/imperial2.htm), but never got to get involved in a game.

If this game goes well, maybe we could try a trip back to 1861 next time around?


For my part, I'm a bit rusty, but I'd go for France if that's okay. La jour ge gloire est arrivé!

alfheimwanderer
April 30th, 2011, 10:55 PM
Allons enfants de la Patrie!

SeiKeo
April 30th, 2011, 10:56 PM
You know, I always wanted to try and play Imperial Diplomacy (http://www.variantbank.org/results/rules/i/imperial2.htm), but never got to get involved in a game.

If this game goes well, maybe we could try a trip back to 1861 next time around?

Oh, that looks pretty cool. The only issue I'd have is that we'd need 13 players, which we should be able to get, but it could be hard.

Nerroth
April 30th, 2011, 10:59 PM
Oh, that looks pretty cool. The only issue I'd have is that we'd need 13 players, which we should be able to get, but it could be hard.

Well, you could play a regional variant; make one particular continent (and its native powers) off-limits, at least initially.

Or, perhaps turn some of the powers (Mexico, Brazil etc) into giant neutrals.

Brynhilde
May 1st, 2011, 05:46 AM
Is... seriously... tempted...

But... this will eat up my uni time like nothing else >.<

Besides, I'm wavering between Russia and Turkey. I'm more interested in the Middle East than any other parts of the world, but growing up I have more real life experience with the mindset of Russian comrades. Hmm...

Ivan The Mouse
May 1st, 2011, 07:11 AM
Reserve Russia for me, while I decide between the hours and read the rulebook.

alfheimwanderer
May 1st, 2011, 12:25 PM
Heh, an Ivan as Russia, eh? How...appropriate.

SeiKeo
May 2nd, 2011, 08:27 PM
So, it seems we might have an interest problem. If we don't get any new players in 24 hours, would you be willing to play the 4-player variant? This is how it would work: Nerroth gets France and Austria, Alf gets Germany and Turkey, Ivan gets Russia and Italy, and Mike gets England. (PG 19 of the rules)

Mike1984
May 2nd, 2011, 08:29 PM
Isn't that somewhat unfair on England...?

I guess, though, that if that's the only option, then we have no real choice.

SeiKeo
May 2nd, 2011, 08:37 PM
Isn't that somewhat unfair on England...?

A little, probably. But from what I know about Diplomacy, England's really hard to kill, and because all the forces on the continent are going to be worried about beating the crap out of each other, you shouldn't be worse off than normal. Plus, nobody controls more than one country that borders the Atlantic.

Mike1984
May 2nd, 2011, 08:42 PM
Yeah, but it makes it damn hard for me to actually win, since I'm instantly outnumbered 2 to 1 and attacking as England is hard enough even without that setup.

But, still, if that's what we have to do, then that's what we have to do. I'd rather wait a bit longer before confirming it, though, because IIRC the five-player game is more balanced than the four-player game would be. Also, technically Mouse hasn't even confirmed that he's playing yet....

SeiKeo
May 2nd, 2011, 08:45 PM
Yeah, but it makes it damn hard for me to actually win, since I'm instantly outnumbered 2 to 1 and attacking as England is hard enough even without that setup.

But, still, if that's what we have to do, then that's what we have to do. I'd rather wait a bit longer before confirming it, though, because IIRC the five-player game is more balanced than the four-player game would be. Also, technically Mouse hasn't even confirmed that he's playing yet....

The five player game would be pretty balanced, but we'd have to make Alf play Turkey. But yeah, I plan on waiting.

alfheimwanderer
May 2nd, 2011, 08:47 PM
Winning isn't all about how much force you alone can bring to bear, Mike. In Diplomacy, you win by exploiting the human element. :)

That said, I would much prefer the 7-player variant, if we can find some more people. However, if it does come down to it, I would be...willing, to play a 4-player variant. Oh, Turkey, I suppose - but I worry that everyone else will gang up on poor little me.

SeiKeo
May 2nd, 2011, 08:47 PM
Winning isn't all about how much force you alone can bring to bear, Mike. In Diplomacy, you win by exploiting the human element. :)

That said, I would much prefer the 7-player variant, if we can find some more people. However, if it does come down to it, I would be...willing, to play a 4-player variant.

I'd like to run the 7-player too, but this forum seems to not like backstabs very much :)

Mike1984
May 2nd, 2011, 08:59 PM
Winning isn't all about how much force you alone can bring to bear, Mike. In Diplomacy, you win by exploiting the human element. :)

Yeah, but you have another country that is automatically allied to you. I do not. Plus, you have double the number of locations in which you can place troops, and also a foothold on both sides of the board (whereas I am trapped in one corner).


That said, I would much prefer the 7-player variant, if we can find some more people. However, if it does come down to it, I would be...willing, to play a 4-player variant. Oh, Turkey, I suppose - but I worry that everyone else will gang up on poor little me.

Well, you and Nerroth are probably the best placed in the 4-player version.

Brynhilde
May 2nd, 2011, 09:01 PM
I would join for Turkey, if only I come onto this forum as frequently as you guys >.<

alfheimwanderer
May 2nd, 2011, 09:02 PM
We'll have what? a 48-72 turn period, so take Turkey :)

Mike1984
May 2nd, 2011, 09:03 PM
Well, I'd quite happily agree to extend the turn period to accomodate her, if necessary.

SeiKeo
May 2nd, 2011, 09:05 PM
I would join for Turkey, if only I come onto this forum as frequently as you guys >.<

Yeah, like Alf said, we can easily have the turns be 72 hours, which seems like a lot of time. But if you really don't have the time, no pressure.

Actually, if you want to only have to do something every 72 hours, you could GM the game and I could play.

alfheimwanderer
May 2nd, 2011, 09:13 PM
I usually play 12 to 24 hours variants, so either 48 or 72 is fine with me for this particular game. Otherwise, maybe some of the others from the RPs we're in would enjoy them.

Theocrass
May 2nd, 2011, 09:14 PM
And where does diplomacy come in?

alfheimwanderer
May 2nd, 2011, 09:16 PM
And where does diplomacy come in?

Quite a bit actually. Communicating with players, making alliances, arranging NAPs - these are vital to the game, since simple force is not enough, nor is luck.

See The Diplomatic Pouch (http://www.diplom.org/index.py) for more information

Brynhilde
May 2nd, 2011, 09:18 PM
72 hours would actually be ok. And no, I'll pass being the GM @[email protected] I tried to cram the instructions pdf and only managed to read half of it so far. Have to confess that I'm a noob in this...

Well that's settled then. I'll take Turkey.

Theocrass
May 2nd, 2011, 09:19 PM
I'll need some time to think about this. The hardest weeks of school are all I have left (about 4) and I'm not sure if I can keep up with an rp like that.

But I'm leaning towards Italy if I do join.

SeiKeo
May 2nd, 2011, 09:19 PM
And where does diplomacy come in?

Because you can talk to all the players in between moves. Since it's usually impossible to break defenses on your own, you tend to make alliances to do something, and then backstab when you can. Say, Germany and France ally to kill England, upon which England makes a deal with Russia to attack Germany, but it turns out this makes Russia powerful, whereupon Austria and Turkey ally to take out Russia... And so on and so forth.

alfheimwanderer
May 2nd, 2011, 09:20 PM
I'll need some time to think about this. The hardest weeks of school are all I have left (about 4) and I'm not sure if I can keep up with an rp like that.

But I'm leaning towards Italy if I do join.

Basically, you just keep in contact with people, while being sure to give your move orders to the GM by the end of each turn. 72 hours is quite a lot!

Theocrass
May 2nd, 2011, 09:21 PM
Then ... Italy for me.

Brynhilde
May 2nd, 2011, 09:22 PM
I feel your pain, Theo. This RP isn't just like any other RP. Imagine if an alliance ended up getting screwed up cos I had to cram for a test and skipped the Internet for 2 days.

alfheimwanderer
May 2nd, 2011, 09:23 PM
I feel your pain, Theo. This RP isn't just like any other RP. Imagine if an alliance ended up getting screwed up cos I had to cram for a test and skipped the Internet for 2 days.

A good strategy to avoid inactivity is to send the GM preliminary orders at the beginning of the turn, in case you are called away later. You can of course modify this as negotiations occur, and you shape a final moveset, but the prelim orders will help you stay in the game. :)

Theocrass
May 2nd, 2011, 09:23 PM
@ Bryn: Way to stress me out further. ;_;

@ AW-sama: That works too.

Mike1984
May 2nd, 2011, 09:24 PM
And where does diplomacy come in?

You talk to people, of course.

It's impossible to win the game on your own because every power starts off equal and there is no random chance. So, the only way to do so is to gain help from other players.

Brynhilde
May 2nd, 2011, 09:26 PM
A good strategy to avoid inactivity is to send the GM preliminary orders at the beginning of the turn, in case you are called away later. You can of course modify this as negotiations occur, and you shape a final moveset, but the prelim orders will help you stay in the game. :)

Hmm I haven't thought of that possibility! Thanks, Alf!

alfheimwanderer
May 2nd, 2011, 09:30 PM
No problem. Its one of the common things those of us who play 12-hour variants do all the time, just because things are hectic. Ah, the days when I was active on playdiplomay.com

Mike1984
May 2nd, 2011, 09:30 PM
Say, Germany and France ally to kill England

Hey, stop giving them ideas :p


@ Bryn: Way to stress me out further. ;_;

Of course, there's nothing to stop you "accidentally" forgetting to post orders and then, when your allies get trounced whilst you are left mysteriously unscathed, you say "oh, oops, my internet died"....

SeiKeo
May 2nd, 2011, 09:31 PM
Of course, there's nothing to stop you "accidentally" forgetting to post orders and then, when your allies get trounced whilst you are left mysteriously unscathed, you say "oh, oops, my internet died"....

Everybody, you now need to be worried about Mike :)

Mike1984
May 2nd, 2011, 09:33 PM
Everybody, you now need to be worried about Mike :)

I never said I would do that, just that it's an entirely valid strategy.

Notably, it's one which probably works rather better when you're not the guy with the most posts on the forum by some way....

Brynhilde
May 2nd, 2011, 09:34 PM
So... after skimming through the guide again, I gather the majority of the workings of this RP will basically be conducted in the flood of pms that will invade everyone's inbox?

alfheimwanderer
May 2nd, 2011, 09:34 PM
Notably, it's one which probably works rather better when you're not the guy with the most posts on the forum by some way....

I'll agree with that. :p


So... after skimming through the guide again, I gather the majority of the workings of this RP will basically be conducted in the flood of pms that will invade everyone's inbox?

That's how it is in every game of Diplomacy. The GM has little to do other than order resolution (and he has a program for that)

SeiKeo
May 2nd, 2011, 09:35 PM
So... after skimming through the guide again, I gather the majority of the workings of this RP will basically be conducted in the flood of pms that will invade everyone's inbox?

Pretty much. The actual order's don't take long: if you just issue orders, you can finish a game in under a few hours. Most of the work is convincing other people to do what you want.

Mike1984
May 2nd, 2011, 09:37 PM
So... after skimming through the guide again, I gather the majority of the workings of this RP will basically be conducted in the flood of pms that will invade everyone's inbox?

PMs or, if you wish, IM, yes.

Brynhilde
May 2nd, 2011, 09:38 PM
Now now let's not include the problem of timezones as well lol

Mike1984
May 2nd, 2011, 09:39 PM
Now now let's not include the problem of timezones as well lol

Well, it's up to you how you wish to negotiate....

Theocrass
May 2nd, 2011, 09:41 PM
Wait, does this site have a IM function?

Mike1984
May 2nd, 2011, 09:42 PM
Wait, does this site have a IM function?

No, but there's nothing stopping you sending IMs through other means.

Theocrass
May 2nd, 2011, 09:46 PM
Ah, I see.

Mike1984
May 2nd, 2011, 09:49 PM
Oh, also, note that there does not necessarily have to be only one winner. You can agree a mutual draw if you wish.

alfheimwanderer
May 2nd, 2011, 10:01 PM
Seems our last opening is for Austria then.

SeiKeo
May 2nd, 2011, 10:02 PM
Seems our last opening is for Austria then.

Dependent on whether Ivan is committed, but yeah. Someone, we need an Austria!

Chaos Greyblood
May 2nd, 2011, 10:30 PM
May I have Austria if it's still open? I want to check this out.

SeiKeo
May 2nd, 2011, 10:31 PM
May I have Austria if it's still open? I want to check this out.

Yep, it's still open.

Okay people, I've PM'd Ivan to see if he still want's to be Russia. If he does, we'll be starting. Does anybody have objections to 48 hour-turns, or should we go with 72?

alfheimwanderer
May 2nd, 2011, 10:36 PM
Either one. I'm pretty much open to anything.

Chaos Greyblood
May 2nd, 2011, 10:58 PM
72 hours

Nerroth
May 3rd, 2011, 01:35 AM
72 hours would be better for me, too.


(Things were quiet for a few days when I was last here; I am off for a bit and four more pages spring up. Sigh.)

Brynhilde
May 3rd, 2011, 01:41 AM
72 please. Otherwise I wouldn't able to keep up >.<

Nerroth
May 3rd, 2011, 01:53 AM
Oh, are we gonna set up a new game thread once it actually starts?


I might suggest calling it The Discord of Europe; to show how the contienental concert forged at the Congress of Vienna was passing is sell-by date at the turn of the twentieth century...

alfheimwanderer
May 3rd, 2011, 02:18 AM
I second the motion, as that's quite an excellent name.

Brynhilde
May 3rd, 2011, 04:25 AM
Call it The Great Game. That was the true name of this 'game' back then, after all.

SeiKeo
May 3rd, 2011, 09:15 AM
Alright, Ivan is in. Game thread coming up soon. Do we want to keep discussion in this thread, or do we just want to have an entire new thread for discussion and game posts?

Mike1984
May 3rd, 2011, 09:23 AM
Well, this thread doesn't seem to have any other use, so I guess we could put discussion in here.

I'd imagine that most of the discussion will be private anyway, so I can't see it being too much of an issue.

SeiKeo
May 3rd, 2011, 09:26 AM
I'd imagine that most of the discussion will be private anyway, so I can't see it being too much of an issue.

We'd be doing Diplomacy wrong if we didn't have a thread full of backstab drama and 'Goddamit, ______!"

Mike1984
May 3rd, 2011, 09:28 AM
We'd be doing Diplomacy wrong if we didn't have a thread full of backstab drama and 'Goddamit, ______!"

Well, yeah, there will certainly exist such complaints, but still the vast majority of communication will be private, I would assume.

SeiKeo
May 3rd, 2011, 09:46 AM
Game thread is up: http://forums.nrvnqsr.com/showthread.php/483-The-Discord-of-Europe-Let-s-Play-Diplomacy

Blue
May 3rd, 2011, 10:21 AM
You sunk my battleship!

...oh wait, wrong game.

*shuffles out the door sheepishly*

Mike1984
May 3rd, 2011, 11:05 AM
Erm, Mouse, isn't it usual to do some actual diplomacy before you make your first move?

Ivan The Mouse
May 3rd, 2011, 11:23 AM
Ah. Don't worry about that, since I might not be around when the others are online, I might as well as make the first moves.

SeiKeo
May 3rd, 2011, 11:26 AM
Probably best to PM me moves anyways.

Mike1984
May 3rd, 2011, 11:42 AM
Ah. Don't worry about that, since I might not be around when the others are online, I might as well as make the first moves.

Well, I would prefer it if you negotiated first, and it would also be in your interests to do so.


Probably best to PM me moves anyways.

Yeah, this.

Posting your own moves means that others can see them before they make their own moves. And, no, you can't force people to honour any agreement not to open spoiler tags to read them, before you ask.....

SeiKeo
May 3rd, 2011, 11:45 AM
Posting your own moves means that others can see them before they make their own moves. And, no, you can't force people to honour any agreement not to open spoiler tags to read them, before you ask.....

Very much this. If the wrong person had looked at those, you could have been in for a world of hurt.

Nerroth
May 3rd, 2011, 12:37 PM
We should probably start a social group for the game, so that the links (for PMs) are all in one place.

alfheimwanderer
May 3rd, 2011, 02:22 PM
To my fellow rulers of Europe:

I, Kaiser AlfheimWanderer of Germany, would like to propose a one year NAP between all of us, given that border security is important if we plan to expand as Great Powers. As the century is just beginning, let us have time to adjust to conditions and explore the consequences of the future before rash action is taken.

Nerroth
May 3rd, 2011, 02:25 PM
(You should probably post that in the game thread...)

Erlkonig
May 3rd, 2011, 02:25 PM
To my fellow rulers of Europe:

I, Kaiser AlfheimWanderer of Germany, would like to propose a one year NAP between all of us, given that border security is important if we plan to expand as Great Powers. As the century is just beginning, let us have time to adjust to conditions and explore the consequences of the future before rash action is taken.

Shouldn't you write this on the IC thread?

alfheimwanderer
May 3rd, 2011, 02:27 PM
Wasn't sure if broadcasts should go here or there, but Ok.

SeiKeo
May 3rd, 2011, 02:30 PM
Probably if you're going to do any IC stuff, like a broadcast like that or an IC reaction to the turn, it goes in the game thread, and anything else goes here.

Nerroth
May 3rd, 2011, 02:40 PM
The Diplomatic Pouch (http://forums.nrvnqsr.com/group.php?groupid=48) is prepared, for any players wishing to use it. (Might be a good idea to add each turn's map update there, too.)

Brynhilde
May 3rd, 2011, 03:06 PM
14:00 GMT is... 2am for me *brain hurts* which means my last minute correspondences won't be read by fellow players before the time is up.

That being said. I'm not complaing. However I do have a full day to get through and won't be back till around 5:00 GMT today.

EDIT: Just one resquest though. Leopard, can you please change my title to Sultana? :D

Mike1984
May 3rd, 2011, 03:15 PM
Very much this. If the wrong person had looked at those, you could have been in for a world of hurt.

Who's to say that they haven't? I certainly saw them, and if nothing else the fact that he is currently intending to send his Moscow army north is a hugely important piece of information.

Nerroth
May 3rd, 2011, 03:17 PM
There is a difference between when you know something and when you may choose to go public with it; as a certain chief executive amply demonstrated on Sunday.

Erlkonig
May 3rd, 2011, 03:24 PM
Who's to say that they haven't? I certainly saw them, and if nothing else the fact that he is currently intending to send his Moscow army north is a hugely important piece of information.

Mike: Taking advantage of the new players.

Man, the Prime Minister sure likes to play dirty, doesn't he?

alfheimwanderer
May 3rd, 2011, 03:25 PM
Or else he's spreading misinformation and trying to get me to move away so he can stab be! I see you, I see what you're up to!

Erlkonig
May 3rd, 2011, 03:39 PM
SUDDENLY

http://i52.tinypic.com/99qh04.jpg

You all got raped by the Sixth Devil King. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZV1yRDt5xE)

alfheimwanderer
May 3rd, 2011, 03:39 PM
Thank you for stopping outside Germany.

Erlkonig
May 3rd, 2011, 03:44 PM
Thank you for stopping outside Germany.

Dude, don't you see? Russia. Russia fell. What the christ, he's unstoppable.

SeiKeo
May 3rd, 2011, 04:53 PM
Who's to say that they haven't? I certainly saw them, and if nothing else the fact that he is currently intending to send his Moscow army north is a hugely important piece of information.

Dude, what are you talking about? His orders were obviously A MOS-UKR, A WAR-GAL, F SEV-ARM, F SPT-FIN /trololololol

Brynhilde: I can change the times if you want. It really doesn't matter much to me.

Mike1984
May 3rd, 2011, 04:58 PM
There is a difference between when you know something and when you may choose to go public with it; as a certain chief executive amply demonstrated on Sunday.

Indeed there is....


Mike: Taking advantage of the new players.

I've never played this game in my life....


Man, the Prime Minister sure likes to play dirty, doesn't he?

No, I just don't particularly want him to make that move, so I'm pointing it out to everyone in the hope that he decides to change it....


Brynhilde: I can change the times if you want. It really doesn't matter much to me.

Any time you pick is likely to cause problems, though, given that we have people playing who live in New Zealand, various parts of Europe and North America. Good luck picking a time where we're all going to be online....

SeiKeo
May 3rd, 2011, 05:07 PM
I've never played this game in my life....

Heh. That's what you want them to think. :)

alfheimwanderer
May 3rd, 2011, 05:47 PM
I've never played this game in my life....

Tell me one I believe...


Any time you pick is likely to cause problems, though, given that we have people playing who live in New Zealand, various parts of Europe and North America. Good luck picking a time where we're all going to be online....

Well, we have enough time to PM in some prelim orders at least.

Mike1984
May 3rd, 2011, 05:53 PM
Tell me one I believe...

Believe whatever you like, but this happens to be the actual truth. The reason I signed up for this is because I have always wanted to give it a go, and the reason I know what I'm doing (to some extent...) is because I've read the rules and have enough intelligence to know that him sending armies North is not a good thing for me....


Well, we have enough time to PM in some prelim orders at least.

Well, of course.

All I'm saying is that, as nice as it would be for us to all be online at the deadline so we can communicate at the last minute, it's simply not possible due to the worldwide dispersion of the players.

SeiKeo
May 3rd, 2011, 05:57 PM
I've read the rules and have enough intelligence to know that him sending armies North is not a good thing for me....

No, no it's not. Usually that means that he wants to bounce you out of Norway. But, I'm telling you, he moved A MOS-UKR. Nothing to worry about.

Mike1984
May 3rd, 2011, 06:21 PM
Erm, surely you're not supposed to tell me his moves a day before the deadline (and, hence, are lying to cover up his mistake)....

Also, what do you intend to do with regards to retreat orders? According to the rules, they're supposed to be done instantly and without any diplomacy, but that is likely to be difficult given that we won't all be online at the time.

SeiKeo
May 3rd, 2011, 06:25 PM
Nah, just messing around. His real orders are safe with me.

Retreats: You're right, we're supposed to do them instantly. But we can't really do that because this is the internet. Just get them in ASAP, and we'll be good.

Mike1984
May 3rd, 2011, 06:34 PM
Nah, just messing around. His real orders are safe with me.

Well, of course.

Honestly, his mistake makes little difference, because I was intending to ask him anyway, and I have no way of knowing if he's chosen to change his move.


Retreats: You're right, we're supposed to do them instantly. But we can't really do that because this is the internet. Just get them in ASAP, and we'll be good.

Well, yeah, fair enough.

Lotus Saint
May 3rd, 2011, 06:58 PM
Why do I find Ivan the mouse with Russia very disturbing?

Chaos Greyblood
May 3rd, 2011, 07:42 PM
Since it has been a looooong time when I had my History classes in school, I think it would be a good idea to provide links of the various figureheads, ministers and personnagés so that we'll be able to carry out messages, responses and declarartions as best we can as we get more into the game. I'm willing to respond something that Nerroth sent me, but I don't know for the life of me who was the Minister of External Affairs on Austria-Hungary at the time nor whom I could use for the response. I trust that this isn't an impossible request.

Ohhhh, I don't know. Because there used to be someone called Ivan the Terrible there?

Mike1984
May 3rd, 2011, 07:45 PM
Well, I just responded without bothering to give a name at all....

BTW, in general it might be best not to tell people who you're talking to, because ultimately this is a game of information as much as anything.

SeiKeo
May 3rd, 2011, 08:18 PM
The Austro-Hungarian Minister on Foreign affairs in 1901? Hell, I don't think I ever knew that.

Mike: If you aren't talking to everybody at all times, you need to be doing so. X is talking to Y isn't really that interesting. Now, X supports Y in two places, on the other hand...

Mike1984
May 3rd, 2011, 08:23 PM
The Austro-Hungarian Minister on Foreign affairs in 1901? Hell, I don't think I ever knew that.

Wikipedia probably knows :p


Mike: If you aren't talking to everybody at all times, you need to be doing so. X is talking to Y isn't really that interesting. Now, X supports Y in two places, on the other hand...

Well, perhaps....

SeiKeo
May 3rd, 2011, 08:33 PM
Wikipedia probably knows :p

Welp. That's what I get for just quickly skimming the page. Chaos, the Foreign Minister at the time was Count Agenor Maria Gołuchowski, and the Emperor was Franz Joseph I. Do other people want me to go looking for information like that?

Chaos Greyblood
May 3rd, 2011, 08:41 PM
Well, it shouldn't be just you. We should probably all try that if necessary. This is just an idea, of course. We don't have to totally carry it out if it's too much of a hassle. I thank you for the info, though.

SeiKeo
May 3rd, 2011, 10:34 PM
Question: Should I update once all orders are in, or should I always wait till the deadline? (Note: all orders are not in, just seeing what kind of response this gets)

Erlkonig
May 3rd, 2011, 10:37 PM
The former one should be the best option.

Brynhilde
May 4th, 2011, 12:30 AM
I'd say wait up to the deadline... but that's probably a selfish thought lol.

Chaos Greyblood
May 4th, 2011, 01:35 AM
Not too selfish, Byrn. We still got some time before we can do something. I imagine some want to stay put and others could try to establish an alliance or two.

alfheimwanderer
May 4th, 2011, 04:38 AM
Retreats and Adjustments: As soon as orders are in
Moves: Deadlines

Mike1984
May 4th, 2011, 07:06 AM
Question: Should I update once all orders are in, or should I always wait till the deadline? (Note: all orders are not in, just seeing what kind of response this gets)

No, wait until the deadline, because people might want to change their orders, and often orders will be sent provisionally.

I don't want to be be forced to choose between risking sending my orders at the last minute and then missing out because my internet breaks or making the game move before I've finished my diplomacy because I sent in provisional orders.

alfheimwanderer
May 4th, 2011, 07:16 AM
No, wait until the deadline, because people might want to change their orders, and often orders will be sent provisionally.

I don't want to be be forced to choose between risking sending my orders at the last minute and then missing out because my internet breaks or making the game move before I've finished my diplomacy because I sent in provisional orders.

Which is why you can mark orders Provisional (to be used only if no new ones come in before deadline), or Final (no more changes). This allows the game to move more quickly if we have concluded our diplomacy, while not causing any trouble.

Jase
May 4th, 2011, 07:18 AM
Hard Mode: Time irl won't change speed regardless of whether you're done decision making or not. GETTING DECIDED QUICKLY will only reward you with the PLEASURE of waiting in suspense for the results to come out.

Mike1984
May 4th, 2011, 08:00 AM
Which is why you can mark orders Provisional (to be used only if no new ones come in before deadline), or Final (no more changes). This allows the game to move more quickly if we have concluded our diplomacy, while not causing any trouble.

Well, in that case, consider all my orders provisional :p

I'd far rather have the option of changing my mind to react to any overtures others might make prior to the deadline. If everyone else is willing to continue and has no further interest in diplomacy, I would be willing to do so also, but I have no way of knowing this, and thus do not wish to risk it.

Blue
May 4th, 2011, 09:25 AM
Unless everyone is online at the same time to say that "yes, there are no further diplomatic matters" (like would happen in a real life game), then the only doing orders at the deadline is probably the fairest way of handling things. Just my 2 cents though...

I will admit... I'm interested to see how this game turns out ;D

SeiKeo
May 4th, 2011, 09:55 PM
Reminder: Orders are due in 12 hours. If you haven't turned a set in (you know who you are), at least send in a preliminary set. You do not want to NMR in Spring 1901.

Theocrass
May 4th, 2011, 09:55 PM
I'm typing my orders now.

Erlkonig
May 4th, 2011, 09:57 PM
Poland: BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD! SKULLS FOR THE SKULLS THRONE! KILL EVERYTHING, LOLOLOLOLOLO

Am I doin' it rite?

inb4 Poland doesn't exist.

Theocrass
May 4th, 2011, 09:57 PM
@ Leopard: DO I type them in the Discord thread, or message them to you?

SeiKeo
May 4th, 2011, 09:58 PM
Poland: BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD! SKULLS FOR THE SKULLS THRONE! KILL EVERYTHING, LOLOLOLOLOLO

Am I doin' it rite?

Poland?

Theo: PM them to me. You definitely don't want other people to see those. Oh man I really want to comment on that but I can't right now.

Erlkonig
May 4th, 2011, 09:58 PM
Poland?

See my edit.

Screw canon.

Anyway, are the battles going to be described, or will it just be 'X defeats Y in the province of Z'?

SeiKeo
May 4th, 2011, 10:03 PM
See my edit.

Screw canon.

In any case, Diplomacy tends to gather blood from a dagger to the back while you're hugging the guy. The ideal motto isn't "BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD," but rather "Just as planned."


Anyway, are the battles going to be described, or will it just be 'X defeats Y in the province of Z'?

Maybe I could do some kind of battle description, but due to the non-random nature, every battle in Diplomacy comes down to one side has more dudes than the other. That's kind of hard to write interesting descriptions for.

Erlkonig
May 4th, 2011, 10:11 PM
Maybe I could do some kind of battle description, but due to the non-random nature, every battle in Diplomacy comes down to one side has more dudes than the other. That's kind of hard to write interesting descriptions for.

Just make up some shit, like:
1xGermanic army attacks an advancing 2xBritish Army while supported by 2x Austrian armies, leading to 3xGerman-Austrian troops against 2x British armies.

"The Germanic armies rapidly advanced, crossing over the province's frontier hours before the British. As the British troops advanced, the Germanic armies ambushed them from the flank, launching a raid while hoping of giving no chance for retaliation. However, the overwhelming number of British troops seemed to make the battle a lost cause.

However, a timely interference of the Austro-Hungarian army, who came to aid the Germanic troops, turned out to be the decisive turning point for the battle. Overwhelmed by the sheer amount of forces behind the three regiments, Britain had no choice but to force its troops to retreat."

Short and simple.

Chaos Greyblood
May 4th, 2011, 11:25 PM
Seems about right. No fuss on that description.

alfheimwanderer
May 5th, 2011, 12:31 AM
Sounds like an encounter that might actually happen :p

Chaos Greyblood
May 5th, 2011, 02:30 AM
1 day left before we set our actions, right?

Brynhilde
May 5th, 2011, 03:04 AM
Just 7 hours left, actually.

And I can't help but both cringe and laugh at the way we're writing pms to each other as if we really are 19th century kings! XDD

alfheimwanderer
May 5th, 2011, 03:16 AM
But that's part of the fun of it, Your Imperial Majesty Brynhilde, Sultana of the Turks.

Chaos Greyblood
May 5th, 2011, 03:40 AM
I hope Brynhilde doesn't have a traitorious female Prime Minister that wishes to be the Sultana instead of the Sultana. :D

My orders will be done.... later this morning.

Mike1984
May 5th, 2011, 09:44 AM
Just make up some shit, like:
1xGermanic army attacks an advancing 2xBritish Army while supported by 2x Austrian armies, leading to 3xGerman-Austrian troops against 2x British armies.

"The Germanic armies rapidly advanced, crossing over the province's frontier hours before the British. As the British troops advanced, the Germanic armies ambushed them from the flank, launching a raid while hoping of giving no chance for retaliation. However, the overwhelming number of British troops seemed to make the battle a lost cause.

However, a timely interference of the Austro-Hungarian army, who came to aid the Germanic troops, turned out to be the decisive turning point for the battle. Overwhelmed by the sheer amount of forces behind the three regiments, Britain had no choice but to force its troops to retreat."

Short and simple.

Well, most of the roleplaying should probably be up to the players themselves, actually, with any public announcements they may wish to make. Although I suppose battles can be written out by Leopard if he wants.

SeiKeo
May 5th, 2011, 10:07 AM
Okay, orders are in. Making update now. Quick preview: Pretty standard, except for Italy. In addition, somebody gets the short end of the stick.

Mike1984
May 5th, 2011, 10:15 AM
Someone got shafted on the first move? Wow....

SeiKeo
May 5th, 2011, 10:46 AM
Post is up. Ouch, Ivan. And Theo: those are some of the strangest Italy moves I've ever seen.

Ivan The Mouse
May 5th, 2011, 11:25 AM
I knew it, I knew it!

Mike1984
May 5th, 2011, 11:31 AM
Knew what?

All I am doing is giving myself options (specifically, the option to ensure that I get Norway regardless of your intentions), and I did warn you several times that I was not pleased with that particular move choice. There's nothing in that move which has to be anti-Russian, because the fleet in the Norweigan Sea can, if I wish, go to Norway whilst the army goes to Europe via the North Sea. Plus, what else was I supposed to do? Sending the London fleet into the channel would be obviously anti-French, and would force Nerroth to act to protect Brest. And, at this point in time I want to keep my options open, so such an obviously anti-French move would be counter-productive.

Ivan The Mouse
May 5th, 2011, 12:04 PM
I'm not talking about the Scandinavian situation, I'm talking about my move in Sevastopol.

Mike1984
May 5th, 2011, 12:06 PM
Ah, yeah.

Well, yes, that was definitely not a good move....

Blue
May 5th, 2011, 12:07 PM
You anticipated your own move? Tactical genius!

Erlkonig
May 5th, 2011, 12:46 PM
Ivan ;_;

Ivan The Mouse
May 5th, 2011, 12:53 PM
Diplomacy has a TV Tropes page (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Diplomacy).

That's the time I discovered that I'm supposed to be allied with Turkey.

Goddamn it! ;________;

Chaos Greyblood
May 5th, 2011, 12:53 PM
Brynhilde wasted no time getting Armenia and moving towards Sevastopol now. She's serious! :D

Maybe I should make a few moves myself soon enough. Pity I didn't get Rumania yet, but I have to say that depending on how it plays out, Warsaw could be in trouble.

Mike1984
May 5th, 2011, 01:05 PM
Diplomacy has a TV Tropes page (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Diplomacy).

That's the time I discovered that I'm supposed to be allied with Turkey.

Goddamn it! ;________;

I'm pretty sure it doesn't work like that....


Brynhilde wasted no time getting Armenia and moving towards Sevastopol now. She's serious! :D

Well, those were basically the only moves she could make, so....


Maybe I should make a few moves myself soon enough. Pity I didn't get Rumania yet, but I have to say that depending on how it plays out, Warsaw could be in trouble.

Well, in general announcing your strategy on here is not the smartest of moves....

Chaos Greyblood
May 5th, 2011, 01:06 PM
What if that's what I want you to think? ;)

SeiKeo
May 5th, 2011, 01:10 PM
I'm pretty sure it doesn't work like that....

Well, he doesn't have to ally with Turkey, but Russia/Turkey is one of the strongest alliances in the game, and usually a decent idea.


Well, those were basically the only moves she could make, so....

Not necessarily. She could have gone A CON-BUL, A SMY-CON, F ANK-BLA with the intent of going A BUL-GRE, A CON-BUL in the fall, using the Black Sea fleet as a bargaining chip with Russia.

Nerroth
May 5th, 2011, 01:23 PM
The Spring movement pic should be added to the Pouch, perhaps.

Oh, one question; in jDip, can you use the mouse to enter offensive support options? I'm trying to test it, but it only seems to let me enter defensive ones (as in, click on which unit you want to support) but not the other kind (as in, click on which move you want to assist with).

SeiKeo
May 5th, 2011, 01:29 PM
The Spring movement pic should be added to the Pouch, perhaps.

Oh, one question; in jDip, can you use the mouse to enter offensive support options? I'm trying to test it, but it only seems to let me enter defensive ones (as in, click on which unit you want to support) but not the other kind (as in, click on which move you want to assist with).

Yeah. Click the unit you are supporting with, click the unit you want to support, then click the destination of the move.

EDIT: Move pic is up on the Pouch.

Mike1984
May 5th, 2011, 01:32 PM
Ah, I see I'm not the only one fiddling with that, then :)

Chaos Greyblood
May 5th, 2011, 01:37 PM
I've also checked an scenario or two myself. I think I should do so again.


Yeah. Click the unit you are supporting with, click the unit you want to support, then click the destination of the move.

EDIT: Move pic is up on the Pouch.

Just remember to type the Enter key to get the support order into the list or it won't happen.

Brynhilde
May 5th, 2011, 03:26 PM
I'm having trouble using the Convoy order in jDip. It keeps telling me that it can't be done!

*studies the turn and the discussion*

Well, I could have done what Leopard said, but I don't like the fact how Constantinople is basically a bottleneck and my troops are lined up one after the other, instead of having other options. And yeah, Theo's moves are... are... *stays silent*

*studies the map again, also studies my Inbox, also studies the plans I've made before hand*

Time for some serious thinking now. Just which option would prove to be most beneficial at the end?

Chaos Greyblood
May 5th, 2011, 03:32 PM
Bryn-chan, I believe I already sent you something. Did you read it? Also, you must make sure that the convoy you plan to use must be close or adjacent to one of your ground armies in question and type -> destination and use Enter to finalize the order. If a fleet or army is two countries away, you can't make a Convoy until you move to the closest country to where your army is.

SeiKeo
May 5th, 2011, 03:48 PM
Well, I could have done what Leopard said, but I don't like the fact how Constantinople is basically a bottleneck and my troops are lined up one after the other, instead of having other options.

Yeah, Constantinople sucks. It makes it really had to break out of Turkey's corner because you can't move troops out fast enough.


And yeah, Theo's moves are... are... *stays silent*

I have literally no idea what Theo's doing. A VEN-TUS is really weird, not only because TUS is a useless place to move to, but also because if he needed an army there he should have moved Rome. And NAP-APU? That accomplishes nothing. He now has no chance to get a build this fall, and the only explanation I can come up with is that it's some kind of alliance masterstroke that we'll see a few turns down the line. But that doesn't seem likely.

Erlkonig
May 5th, 2011, 03:50 PM
I'd have done worse. I know shit about strategy.

SeiKeo
May 5th, 2011, 03:52 PM
I'd have done worse. I know shit about strategy.

Well, I'd assume that you would have at least moved to the Ionian and taken a shot at Tunis or Greece.

Chaos Greyblood
May 5th, 2011, 03:53 PM
You know, this is my first time I've played something like Diplomacy, but at least I have some grasp about strategy and all. When it comes to RTS PC games, the closest examples I could think of are AoE and Emperor:Batttle for Dune, except that you make your alliances with some of the minor Houses and all 3 Great Houses don't want to do anything with each other in the latter game.

Brynhilde
May 5th, 2011, 04:58 PM
@Chaos: yeah I read it but didn't have time to reply. Lecture this morning and very soon too. And what? Two MORE pms!?!?

And Turkey's corner is exactly why I wanted to use the Convoy orders properly ;_;

Also, I've never even heard of Diplomacy before this thread (and I STILL haven't finished reading the rules >.<), but I suppose the military is in my blood lol.

Chaos Greyblood
May 5th, 2011, 05:04 PM
Oh? Maybe your father or someone in your family was/is in the military? o.o I've skimmed through the rules, but I'll get to the more intricate elements later. For now, I'm learning as I go and jDlp is pretty handy too.

Theocrass
May 5th, 2011, 05:51 PM
Ufufufufufufufufufu~

Predictable. That's what you'd all like me to be.

Well, if there's anything my friends have learned over the years, it's that I'm anything but.

Mike1984
May 5th, 2011, 05:53 PM
I'd have done worse. I know shit about strategy.

I'm not convinced it's possible to do worse, honestly....

alfheimwanderer
May 5th, 2011, 06:10 PM
I'm not convinced it's possible to do worse, honestly....

He could have lost Venice first turn. That...would have been bad.

Mike1984
May 5th, 2011, 06:46 PM
He could have lost Venice first turn. That...would have been bad.

Well, I meant in terms of moves, not in terms of the outcome....

SeiKeo
May 5th, 2011, 06:47 PM
Well, I meant in terms of moves, not in terms of the outcome....

He could have moved A Rome-Naples and made it totally irrelevant instead of partly irrelevant.

Brynhilde
May 5th, 2011, 06:54 PM
Although it is delightful to find 4 new pms when I log in, plesae stop expecting me to reply immediately >.< I'm at uni atm! I'll reply to everyone later in the night!

And yeah, my father's entire family is in the Chinese army lol. My grandfather was a general against the Japanese in WWII and later in the Korean War.

Chaos Greyblood
May 6th, 2011, 03:33 AM
I wonder what else the others will do. Just 2 more days until the orders are finalized...

I'm getting the hang of how you're able to support armies now. All that's missing is being able to do convoys and a few more advanced stuff.

alfheimwanderer
May 6th, 2011, 03:41 AM
Convoys are interesting things.

Remember, for a successful convoy, several things are needed.


1) You have to have an army on a coastal province, with fleets in every water space in a path to a target (let's say, A Naples, F ION, destination Greece)
2) You need to order an army to move to a location across the sea. (A Naples -> Greece)
3) You need to order each of your fleets to convoy that army to its destination (F ION C A Naples -> Greece)

Its that simple.

Its possible to do a longer convoy as well, with an example being Rome to Greece, if you have a fleet in TYS and in ION, forming a contiguous path between origin and destination.

Example orders:
A Rome -> Greece
F TYS C A Rome -> Greece
F ION C A Rome -> Greece

Brynhilde
May 6th, 2011, 03:42 AM
^ I was trying to get a convey across the English channel from Wales to Brest and jDip told me it can't be done @[email protected]

alfheimwanderer
May 6th, 2011, 03:45 AM
So you tried:

A Wales -> Brest
F ENG C A Wales -> Brest

?

That's a legal combination...

Chaos Greyblood
May 6th, 2011, 03:47 AM
I wonder about that myself. Hopefully, the app doesn't get wishy-washy with something so simple.

Brynhilde
May 6th, 2011, 04:01 AM
Ahh. I see. I forgot the A wales -> Brest part *facepalm*

So I basically told the fleet to convoy empty air. No wonder it's not doing anything

alfheimwanderer
May 6th, 2011, 04:04 AM
Well, now you know :)

Brynhilde
May 6th, 2011, 04:09 AM
And also that now I'm finally online, no new pms appear in my Inbox anymore @[email protected]

Chaos Greyblood
May 6th, 2011, 04:44 AM
Lol, you did say you needed a bit of a break, didn't you? :D Or something to that effect. Well, I guess I know now what should be my course of action...

alfheimwanderer
May 6th, 2011, 05:00 AM
And soon the Continent shall be awash in blood...

Chaos Greyblood
May 6th, 2011, 03:52 PM
This Sunday should prove to be pretty interesting. I hope for a great journey since I like this game already. And what's this about Austria-Hungary being the Butt Monkey?! With some wits and planning, that can change in a flash.

Brynhilde
May 6th, 2011, 04:18 PM
After reading up on this game and its infamous reputation, I'm kinda scared now @[email protected] I don't wnat to damage the existing friendships I have with players here once the game is over...

Chaos Greyblood
May 6th, 2011, 04:32 PM
I don't think you'll have that problem with me, Bryn. Maybe Diplomacy is Serious Business for some? :D

Jase
May 6th, 2011, 05:09 PM
Well, imagine the temporary hate at someone you might have during a short game, of, I don't know, Settler's of Catan or Monopoly or whatever. You guys had a deal, or you asked him for something, THEN HE BETRAYED YOU AND LIED AND MADE YOU LOSE BECAUSE YOU TRUSTED HIM.

That's okay. The game takes only 30~1 hour anyways. It's short.

Diplomacy can takes months and years.

SeiKeo
May 6th, 2011, 05:10 PM
Well, imagine the temporary hate at someone you might have during a short game, of, I don't know, Settler's of Catan or Monopoly or whatever. You guys had a deal, or you asked him for something, THEN HE BETRAYED YOU AND LIED AND MADE YOU LOSE BECAUSE YOU TRUSTED HIM.

That's okay. The game takes only 30~1 hour anyways. It's short.

Diplomacy can takes months and years.

Oh man, I hope this game doesn't take years.

EDIT: Since Sunday is Mother's Day, does anybody want an extension?

alfheimwanderer
May 6th, 2011, 05:15 PM
Or we could just cut it early...?

SeiKeo
May 6th, 2011, 05:18 PM
Or we could just cut it early...?

Or we could call it Saturday, that's fine too. Opinions?

Mike1984
May 6th, 2011, 05:25 PM
This Sunday should prove to be pretty interesting. I hope for a great journey since I like this game already. And what's this about Austria-Hungary being the Butt Monkey?! With some wits and planning, that can change in a flash.

I thought that was Italy, actually....


After reading up on this game and its infamous reputation, I'm kinda scared now @[email protected] I don't wnat to damage the existing friendships I have with players here once the game is over...

I don't think it should happen. We all know it's just a game, after all....


Oh man, I hope this game doesn't take years.

Well, having it go more than 20 in-game years is highly unusual, I think, and that would be about 120 days. So, it's likely to go half a year at the very most.


EDIT: Since Sunday is Mother's Day, does anybody want an extension?

Only for you....


Or we could call it Saturday, that's fine too. Opinions?

No, cutting it (or, indeed, extending it) is unfair on those of us who aren't American. Are we going to extend the deadline for every British holiday too, or for every New Zealand holiday? Having said that, I wouldn't object to cutting the deadline to Saturday in this case, although it would cause problems for me a little down the line, because next Monday is my first day at work and, thus, I'm likely to have less time to do anything than I will either the day before or the day after. However, I would only agree to it if everyone playing is OK with it.

Actually, we should consider that more generally. In a game that's this long, there's sure to be points when someone is unable to access the internet for longer than three days. What do we do then? Do we just say "tough", and continue the game regardless, or do we wait for them if they ask in advance?

SeiKeo
May 6th, 2011, 05:30 PM
No, cutting it (or, indeed, extending it) is unfair on those of us who aren't American. Are we going to extend the deadline for every British holiday too, or for every New Zealand holiday?

I'm sorry, are you telling me that there are countries that matter besides America? /trolololololol Really though, I was just trying to see if it would be a problem for anybody.


Actually, we should consider that more generally. In a game that's this long, there's sure to be points when someone is unable to access the internet for longer than three days. What do we do then? Do we just say "tough", and continue the game regardless, or do we wait for them if they ask in advance?

Well, it's pretty unfair to have them NMR just because they're gone, but unless we can find a sub...?

I don't know, maybe I give the orders right after the update comes out, so they're essentially playing, but without any diplomacy?

Brynhilde
May 6th, 2011, 05:33 PM
Saturday when? GMT 14.00? I can make that time.

Jase
May 6th, 2011, 05:36 PM
I doubt it's so much about nations as it is accommodating the majority but not the minority.

Mike1984
May 6th, 2011, 05:41 PM
Well, it's pretty unfair to have them NMR just because they're gone, but unless we can find a sub...?

Yeah, that's the issue.


I don't know, maybe I give the orders right after the update comes out, so they're essentially playing, but without any diplomacy?

Yeah, but what if they're away for, for instance, a week? The way the game works means you can't make orders a turn in advance, because you have no idea if they'll be valid.


I doubt it's so much about nations as it is accommodating the majority but not the minority.

Well, apart from the fact that the majority of players aren't actually American, why the fuck should the game accommodate the majority but not the minority. That's not fair on those of us who aren't in said majority.

SeiKeo
May 6th, 2011, 05:45 PM
Yeah, but what if they're away for, for instance, a week? The way the game works means you can't make orders a turn in advance, because you have no idea if they'll be valid.

What I meant by that was that I make the update and then immediately make the moves for that country without any diplomacy.

I'm inclined to say that if you're gone, you make some kind of arrangement to have somebody make your moves.

Mike1984
May 6th, 2011, 05:52 PM
What I meant by that was that I make the update and then immediately make the moves for that country without any diplomacy.

Surely, though, then the other people will know how to react to those moves, which is a huge disadvantage. Also, what if you're away for more than one update? How could you decide orders


I'm inclined to say that if you're gone, you make some kind of arrangement to have somebody make your moves.

That might be sensible, yes, but it's not certain it will be possible.

alfheimwanderer
May 6th, 2011, 05:57 PM
Surely, though, then the other people will know how to react to those moves, which is a huge disadvantage. Also, what if you're away for more than one update? How could you decide orders

More as in the GM inputs orders but doesn't show everyone else, Mike.

Mike1984
May 6th, 2011, 06:03 PM
More as in the GM inputs orders but doesn't show everyone else, Mike.

Ah, OK.

It still doesn't really resolve the problem, though....

alfheimwanderer
May 6th, 2011, 06:05 PM
NMRs happen. Things don't always work out perfectly, but this at least works well enough, especially if the player communicates to the GM ahead of time any intentions.

Jase
May 6th, 2011, 06:39 PM
Well, apart from the fact that the majority of players aren't actually American, why the fuck should the game accommodate the majority but not the minority. That's not fair on those of us who aren't in said majority.

Let's say everyone here except you was devoutly religious, and they all agree diplomacy shouldn't be played on God's day. Should they be accommodated?

Now, let's say you were procrastinating on your thesis and now need to work for the week to meet the crunch time. Should everyone have to accommodate you?

Conversely, imagine if Britain was a special fairy, and celebrated, idk, Yay Britain day on a day that is normal for everyone else, and you're the only one in the game who would celebrate the hypothetical "Yay Britain day" that coincides with no other holiday. Should they accommodate you?

Because imo, once you begin accommodating minorities down to the individual, then you should accommodate individuals regardless of the reason why they need accommodation, nationality be damned.

Still, I don't know what Mother's Day has to do with America. Is it not celebrated outside of North America, or what? Cause it's a perfectly Canadian thing too. I could see someone complaining if they were from China or Japan or India or something.

Does the rest of the Commonwealth not have it?

Mike1984
May 6th, 2011, 06:48 PM
Let's say everyone here except you was devoutly religious, and they all agree diplomacy shouldn't be played on God's day. Should they be accommodated?

Well, yes, that would be fair.


Now, let's say you were procrastinating on your thesis and now need to work for the week to meet the crunch time. Should everyone have to accommodate you?

If they would do so for a larger group of people, yes.


Conversely, imagine if Britain was a special fairy, and celebrated, idk, Yay Britain day on a day that is normal for everyone else, and you're the only one in the game who would celebrate the hypothetical "Yay Britain day" that coincides with no other holiday. Should they accommodate you?

Yes, if we're going to accomodate American holidays, we should accomodate British ones too. Just because there are more Americans playing, that doesn't mean they should get special treatment.


Because imo, once you begin accommodating minorities down to the individual, then you should accommodate individuals regardless of the reason why they need accommodation, nationality be damned.

Yeah, but if you're playing a game with seven people, it's a bit ridiculous to say "we much accomodate the majority but screw the minority". It's just not fair. If you're going to accomodate holidays for some people, we should accomodate them for everyone. And, like I said, US players are not in the majority in any case.


Still, I don't know what Mother's Day has to do with America. Is it not celebrated outside of North America, or what? Cause it's a perfectly Canadian thing too. I could see someone complaining if they were from China or Japan or India or something.

Does the rest of the Commonwealth not have it?

We celebrate it, but not at the same time. Our Mother's Day was a month or so ago.

Jase
May 6th, 2011, 07:21 PM
That's fair enough. Still, no need to whip out the italics at people, you know?

Leopard was just asking. And, well, it never crossed my mind people would celebrate Mother's Day on randomly different assortments of day, so y'know.

Mike1984
May 6th, 2011, 07:24 PM
That's fair enough. Still, no need to whip out the italics at people, you know?

I always use italics....


Leopard was just asking.

I know. I was arguing with you, not him.


And, well, it never crossed my mind people would celebrate Mother's Day on randomly different assortments of day, so y'know.

Fair enough, although there's no real reason we should use the same date as the US.

Jase
May 6th, 2011, 07:28 PM
Well, that's not really the point, the more important question is why they're different? I mean, we have a ton of totally mismatched dates for holidays, but even Mother's Day? Is Father's day mismatched too?

But well, whatever. It'll probably come down to personal policing, I guess. I doubt Leopard has a Spanish/British/New Zealandian etc. calendar handy. That, and I wasn't sure he was even 100% on the question.

SeiKeo
May 6th, 2011, 07:30 PM
Really, I was just asking for lo, I am a merciful GM, and I thought people might be busy and need more time. Feel free to ask for more if you need it, not just if there's an American holiday.

Mike1984
May 6th, 2011, 07:46 PM
Well, that's not really the point, the more important question is why they're different? I mean, we have a ton of totally mismatched dates for holidays, but even Mother's Day? Is Father's day mismatched too?

Well, the holidays were invented seperately in the two different countries, probably, so it figures that they'd have different dates.


But well, whatever. It'll probably come down to personal policing, I guess. I doubt Leopard has a Spanish/British/New Zealandian etc. calendar handy. That, and I wasn't sure he was even 100% on the question.

Well, of course.


Really, I was just asking for lo, I am a merciful GM, and I thought people might be busy and need more time. Feel free to ask for more if you need it, not just if there's an American holiday.

Yeah, that's fair enough. If anyone has a good reason to need more time, I think it's fair to give them it.

Having said that, the fact that the deadline falls on Mother's Day shouldn't be a problem, especially since it's 3 PM BST, which is something like 10 AM at the latest in the US. I would imagine that most US people will either submit their orders the night before, or else will do so when they wake up, and thus Mother's Day celebrations will not clash with it.

Chaos Greyblood
May 6th, 2011, 08:15 PM
I don't know if we're able to make something for my mom, since my brother returns on Sunday, though I would believe they'll be having something done at my grandma's house. But I can agree that we can all submit the orders on Saturday. Although I won't be here tomorrow since I'll be D&Ding with friends.

SeiKeo
May 6th, 2011, 08:17 PM
Well, as long as everybody has something in before the deadline, we're good. I actually only need orders from Theo right now, so everybody should be fine unless some kind of urgent last min diplomacy comes in.

Brynhilde
May 6th, 2011, 08:56 PM
I didn't know that Mother's Day is a holiday in the US. Isn't it a weekend regardless??

And has the deadline been shortened to Saturday 1400 GMT, or not?! Cos I'll have to respond quickly to some diplomacy if that's the case. Everyone's suddenly gone oh-so-interested in little Turkey.

SeiKeo
May 6th, 2011, 08:58 PM
I didn't know that Mother's Day is a holiday in the US. Isn't it a weekend regardless??

And has the deadline been shortened to Saturday 1400 GMT, or not?! Cos I'll have to respond quickly to some diplomacy if that's the case. Everyone's suddenly gone oh-so-interested in little Turkey.

No, it's not an official holiday. But most people do something with their family, which often takes time.

And the deadline has NOT yet been shortened. If people want to, we can, but unless we want to switch for the entire rest of the game, we should probably keep it consistent.

EDIT: Well, yeah people are interested in you. Russia wants to keep SEV, Austria wants you to not mess him up, and Italy wants you to mess Austria up.

Mike1984
May 6th, 2011, 09:08 PM
Yeah, I'd agree with not shortening the deadline unless everyone concurs with it. If there is a genuine issue with the holiday, then it should be lengthened not shortened. Non-US players should not lose diplomatic time just because US players will.

Chaos Greyblood
May 6th, 2011, 09:14 PM
When it comes to Turkey-Austria connections, let me put it this way: The Ottoman Empire has a chance to be more than just the big fish in the little pond. :)

SeiKeo
May 6th, 2011, 09:21 PM
When it comes to Turkey-Austria connections, let me put it this way: The Ottoman Empire has a chance to be more than just the big fish in the little pond. :)

Unfortunately, most of his bigger pond comes from your pond.

Chaos Greyblood
May 6th, 2011, 09:32 PM
And now both Germany and France have recieved messages. Time to see some reactions.

Brynhilde
May 6th, 2011, 09:39 PM
Unfortunately, most of his bigger pond comes from your pond.

LOL!

Chaos Greyblood
May 6th, 2011, 09:41 PM
I don't mind. If something happens, it'll be very good. :)

Mike1984
May 6th, 2011, 09:44 PM
And now both Germany and France have recieved messages. Time to see some reactions.

Hey, don't I get one? :p

Chaos Greyblood
May 6th, 2011, 09:46 PM
You'll get one soon enough, Mike MAH BOI

Chaos Greyblood
May 6th, 2011, 10:24 PM
I apologize for my double post, but this has just occurred to me in this moment. I wondered if there were other people who would have also been interested in this game and if there will be more campaigns done in the future. I would think someone like Revy would like to have a good look at it. :)

Although I'm kinda scared. She could well sweep us out the door, since she is deliciously diabolical. XDDDD

Brynhilde
May 6th, 2011, 10:24 PM
I don't mind. If something happens, it'll be very good. :)

I don't know if I should be happy or scared with that... and btw, I think an Italian herald lost his way as he was delivering a letter and stumbled into Constantinople when he was meant to go to Vienna. He's since realised his mistake and should have arrived to your palace by now ^^

EDIT: Instead of Revy, you've got me. Err... yeah, I'd rather not go against her in something like this.

SeiKeo
May 6th, 2011, 10:26 PM
I don't know if I should be happy or scared with that... and btw, I think an Italian herald lost his way as he was delivering a letter and stumbled into Constantinople when he was meant to go to Vienna. He's since realised his mistake and should have arrived to your palace by now ^^

Uh oh. :)

Chaos Greyblood
May 6th, 2011, 10:30 PM
I don't know if I should be happy or scared with that... and btw, I think an Italian herald lost his way as he was delivering a letter and stumbled into Constantinople when he was meant to go to Vienna. He's since realised his mistake and should have arrived to your palace by now ^^

EDIT: Instead of Revy, you've got me. Err... yeah, I'd rather not go against her in something like this.

Ah, yes. The missive has been recieved and noted. There's gonna be lots of action going on for Year 2.

Ahh, no worries, Bryn. You're one of my favorites here in BL. ^^ Although I can also agree that going against Revy is paramount to being... Errr, I can think of some things, but none of them are good. n__nUU I would expect almost many players suck up to her, though. X3

Theocrass
May 6th, 2011, 10:32 PM
I'm glad I put so little into the message. *Head desk*

Brynhilde
May 6th, 2011, 10:36 PM
Yeah, I didn't know how to respond when I was addressed as the Emperor of Austria @[email protected]

Chaos Greyblood
May 6th, 2011, 10:37 PM
XDDDDDD

Beyond that, no comment. :)

SeiKeo
May 6th, 2011, 10:38 PM
I guess bear claws aren't very good at adressing letters.

alfheimwanderer
May 6th, 2011, 11:53 PM
Yeah, I didn't know how to respond when I was addressed as the Emperor of Austria @[email protected]

...think of it as a prophecy of the future? :cool:

Jase
May 7th, 2011, 01:10 AM
Yeah, I'd agree with not shortening the deadline unless everyone concurs with it. If there is a genuine issue with the holiday, then it should be lengthened not shortened. Non-US players should not lose diplomatic time just because US players will.

Mexican players too, from the sounds of it :P

Anyways, guys. Remember, Theocrass is WEIRD. What if that mis-sent message was ALL A PART OF HIS MASTER PLAN?

Brynhilde
May 7th, 2011, 02:20 AM
Anyways, guys. Remember, Theocrass is WEIRD. What if that mis-sent message was ALL A PART OF HIS MASTER PLAN?

I'm well aware of that, especially since the tone that he wrote that letter with was... weird too. Hmm.

alfheimwanderer
May 7th, 2011, 02:38 AM
I'd expect no less from a Diplomat

Nerroth
May 7th, 2011, 02:41 AM
Just to clarify, how soon would you want the build orders to be in, after the fall movement/retreat phases are completed?

Also, annoyingly, jDip has a habit of not running properly for me. (The program starts to run, but 9 times out of 10 the window is unresponsive; and in the 10th instance, it only runs for so long before it freezes up.)

SeiKeo
May 7th, 2011, 02:56 PM
Just to clarify, how soon would you want the build orders to be in, after the fall movement/retreat phases are completed?

Also, annoyingly, jDip has a habit of not running properly for me. (The program starts to run, but 9 times out of 10 the window is unresponsive; and in the 10th instance, it only runs for so long before it freezes up.)

Build orders: as soon as you can.

jDip: try getting a different version. Some of the old versions might be more stable.

SeiKeo
May 7th, 2011, 09:58 PM
Reminder: deadline for orders or revisions is in 12 hours.

SeiKeo
May 8th, 2011, 12:16 PM
Justified triple post: Update is out.

Mostly a good first year. Mostly.

Erlkonig
May 8th, 2011, 01:21 PM
IVAN ;_;

Chaos Greyblood
May 8th, 2011, 01:26 PM
Mostly a good year, LeopardBear? Was there something that disappointed you?

Looks like after the building phase is over, I'll have work to do. :P

Mike1984
May 8th, 2011, 01:30 PM
IVAN ;_;

It could have been even worse if Alfheim had decided to bounce him from Sweden too (which he could have done at no loss to himself)....

Ivan The Mouse
May 8th, 2011, 01:31 PM
IVAN ;_;

I'm going to lose this war, I'm pretty sure of it. ;_____X

But not matter what, I'm going to deal with this!

Chaos Greyblood
May 8th, 2011, 01:35 PM
Maybe not if you could establish something, though. Although Moscow is going to be in trouble, and so will St. Petersburg.

I've also noticed that for the most part, one of my scenarios I ran in jDip was nearly completed. Now I'm really going to have to make a few decisions, few of them pleasant for the sovereigns involved. How would you grade Year 1901 for all the Empires so far?

SeiKeo
May 8th, 2011, 03:20 PM
Mostly a good year, LeopardBear? Was there something that disappointed you?

Mainly, it wasn't a good year for Ivan, and I think Theo kind of shot himself in the foot.


I've also noticed that for the most part, one of my scenarios I ran in jDip was nearly completed. Now I'm really going to have to make a few decisions, few of them pleasant for the sovereigns involved. How would you grade Year 1901 for all the Empires so far?

Leopard's (possibly wrong) Rankings:

Turkey: Excellent first turn. You've got two builds, broken out of your corner, and a slightly weak Austria to go through. Keep up the good work.

England: Two builds, and a foothold on the continent? Nice job. KUtGW.

France: Solid, standard. Not much to say. KUtGW.

Germany: Solid. The English army in Belgium looks to me like it might be the start of a France/England against you. I suspect that Italy's move to Piedmont was your doing: good idea.

Austria: You're probably in Turkey's sights. Russia hates Turkey. Do the math. (unless Italy's the next target, I don't know about your plans)

Italy: Uh... what? I really don't know what your Spring moves were trying to accomplish, but your Fall moves do have a direction. Figure out what you want to do, and do it.

Russia: Ow. Find a friend.

Erlkonig
May 8th, 2011, 03:23 PM
England has a strategic advantage as well, with accessing it by land being impossible.

Chaos Greyblood
May 8th, 2011, 03:28 PM
I have a few moves in mind, so its possible something will happen.

Oh, and how the heck did France's ground forces on Burgundy manage to give support to the English forces all the way to Edinburgh?? o.o Don't they have to be close by if he wants to do Convoys or Support? They're a bit far away from each other, aren't they?

SeiKeo
May 8th, 2011, 03:37 PM
I have a few moves in mind, so its possible something will happen.

Oh, and how the heck did France's ground forces on Burgundy manage to give support to the English forces all the way to Edinburgh?? o.o Don't they have to be close by if he wants to do Convoys or Support? They're a bit far away from each other, aren't they?

The only thing you need for support is to be able to attack the territory you're supporting the attacker into. Think of it this way: the English made a naval landing while the French swept up behind and opened up a second front.

Chaos Greyblood
May 8th, 2011, 03:46 PM
Or rather, the French gave England a nice leeway on Belgium so that they'll be able to have a strong foothold towards Germany. Gotcha.

I think I have a very good idea how the rest of the big players will build their armies and fleets. It's possibly one of the most logical directions to take.

Erlkonig
May 8th, 2011, 03:48 PM
England will probably have a lot of fleets. Its mainland's defensive capabilities are off the charts.

Mike1984
May 8th, 2011, 03:50 PM
Mainly, it wasn't a good year for Ivan, and I think Theo kind of shot himself in the foot.

Well, Mouse kind of shot himself in the foot too, actually, by making an extremely risky move without doing the necessary diplomacy to pull it off and, worse, posting it publically two days before the deadline.


England has a strategic advantage as well, with accessing it by land being impossible.

Yeah but, conversely, leaving it by land is also impossible....

SeiKeo
May 8th, 2011, 03:50 PM
England will probably have a lot of fleets. Its mainland's defensive capabilities are off the charts.

England is pretty much LOLOLOL FLEETS until he decides to invade the continent properly.



Well, Mouse kind of shot himself in the foot too, actually, by making an extremely risky move without doing the necessary diplomacy to pull it off and, worse, posting it publically two days before the deadline.

That's not really unrecoverable though. Theo guaranteed that he wouldn't get a build until Fall 1902, and most likely only one then. That sets you back for the entire game. Ivan could have recovered with some good diplomacy.

Mike1984
May 8th, 2011, 03:53 PM
Or rather, the French gave England a nice leeway on Belgium so that they'll be able to have a strong foothold towards Germany. Gotcha.

Well, more importantly, I have Belgium.


I think I have a very good idea how the rest of the big players will build their armies and fleets. It's possibly one of the most logical directions to take.

Well, I have essentially two options, neither of which are likely to make much difference in the long term.

Chaos Greyblood
May 8th, 2011, 03:59 PM
I think the Convoy will help you a good deal if you got the backup, Mike. If you make a choice within the build scenario I made up, you will still have strong fleets and possibly more ground forces should you really want to enter the continent more properly.

Mike1984
May 8th, 2011, 04:02 PM
I think the Convoy will help you a good deal if you got the backup, Mike. If you make a choice within the build scenario I made up, you will still have strong fleets and possibly more ground forces should you really want to enter the continent more properly.

Well, I've submitted my orders already, and I think they're sensible.

alfheimwanderer
May 8th, 2011, 04:05 PM
And so the intrigue of the Great Game continues.

Erlkonig
May 8th, 2011, 04:13 PM
So... Soviet revolution when? Considering Russia's current situation, I think the Tsar's gonna get killed a bit sooner than expected. >_>

Chaos Greyblood
May 8th, 2011, 04:17 PM
Hopefully you'll have made the right choice, Mike. Though I think my brief analysis isn't too bad. And if Ivan wants to keep being in the game, he should check his inbox soon. :)

Brynhilde
May 8th, 2011, 04:49 PM
Austria: You're probably in Turkey's sights. Russia hates Turkey. Do the math. (unless Italy's the next target, I don't know about your plans)


Oi, stop giving him ideas.

Btw is there actually a deadline for builds? I'm pretty busy today >.<

SeiKeo
May 8th, 2011, 04:52 PM
Oi, stop giving him ideas.

Yeah, attacking Italy. Why do you object to that? :) trolololol This is when you get Germany to attack Austria. (notseriousadvice)

Mike1984
May 8th, 2011, 04:54 PM
Btw is there actually a deadline for builds? I'm pretty busy today >.<

I'd assume it should be done ASAP, especially since we're not supposed to do any diplomacy beforehand. I don't think it should take you too long, in any case. I can only see two or three even remotely sensible options for you at this point.

Theocrass
May 8th, 2011, 04:54 PM
What tangled webs you weave, Leopard-kun.

SeiKeo
May 8th, 2011, 04:55 PM
Btw is there actually a deadline for builds? I'm pretty busy today >.<

Yeah, what Mike said. ASAP, no diplo, look at the map and decide.


What tangled webs you weave, Leopard-kun.

And what would you mean, Theo-senpai?

Theocrass
May 8th, 2011, 04:58 PM
I mean what I mean, because a man's got to mean what he means when he says what he says. And damn it! Sometimes a man has to say what he needs to say, even if saying what he wants to say ain't necessarily the polite thing to say! Y'know what I'm saying? 'Cuz I ain't saying nothing, see?

SeiKeo
May 8th, 2011, 04:59 PM
Buddy, you saying nothing.