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Haseo Nanaya
May 7th, 2014, 05:36 PM
I originally started this over on the wiki but thought it would be more efficient to move over here.

New blog collaboration on who might be saved in the akasha as heroic spirits. And which ones of those would make strong servants or at least interesting ones. organized by culture and ranked by possibility of being a heroic spirit and viability as a servant (EX: the first pope might be a HS but probably not a good servant choice)
NOTICE: this is not to pitch type-moon ideas. this is a speculation list based on pre established rules. there are controversial people, doesn't make them less legendary or famous.

Think of this list as a tool. Say if some one wants to write a story with new servants, they can use this list as reference. Pre-made servants with some set up. So include people that might be heroic spirits.

Anglo-Saxon
Beowulf. Very Likely. Amazing Saber, Great Berserker.

Finnish
Simo Haya
"the white death". Unknown Probability. Great Archer. Noble Phantasm: Payback. Can survive/Ignore 1 fatal wound till he kills the inflicter. high chance to recover from fatal wounds. (Think one time per combat rechargeable God Hand). Battle Continuation A+

Roman
Judas. likely. Assassin. Lancer.

Eastern
Sun Tzu. Unknown chance. Saber, very tactical.
Ghengis Khan. Very Likely. Great Berserker. Good Saber.
Abe No Seimei. Highly Likely. Amazing/Great Caster. since it's ancient shinto Magecraft on the level of true magic. Saber wouldn't be immune or as resistant to it.

Norse
Sigurd. Saber. werewolf.

Greek
Odyseus. Archer

General European
Johan Faust. likely. Good Caster


Egyption/Canaan
Ramesses II. The Greatest Pharoh. Likely. Rider. Archer.


other
King Sollomon. Very Likely. Amazing Caster. Noble Phantasm: 72 Demon Summon.
Jacob (Israel). He who wrestled God. Highly Likely. Amazing Saber.



- - - Updated - - -

From Hawkeye

Here's one for Tomoe Gozen, from the Genpei War of Japan.
Name: Tomoe Gozen

Class: Lancer[/B]

Gender: Female[/B][/B]
Stat Parameters:
STR : B // END : C+ // MAG: D // AGI : B // LUK : D // NP: A
History: A warrior woman of the Genji Clan of Japan, Tomoe was well regarded as a warrior. After the death of her husband, she gave up the sword and fell into obscurity as a nun. During this time, she told stories to the other sisters of the war, each recording fragments that would one day be collected into the Heike Monogatari, the epic poem penned by many authors across the era, detailing the events of the Genpei War and the great deeds performed therein.
Noble Phantasm:[/B][/B][/B]
Heike Monogatari
Rank: A
Type: Anti Unit
A ancient book bound with thick red rope around Lancer's waist. When activated, the rope is removed and the pages scatter. Laying themselves over her Naginata, they transform it into a giant Zanbatou, emblazoned with the crest of the Minamoto clan on one side, and the Taira on the other. Embodying the spirit of the tale, the Buddhist law of Impermanence (Mujo) and the fleeting nature of all things, physical structures hit with this blade will instantly cease to exist, scattering into gentian flowers, whilst ethereal structures, like barriers, spells or conceptual constructs become clouds of butterflies. A weapon nearly impossible to defend against, single use defenses or evading Lancer are the best options.

Personal Skills:
Disengage
Rank: Ex
Based on when Tomoe was ordered to flee combat by her husband, and claimed an enemy's head whilst doing so, should Tomoe attempt to flee combat and be attacked, she can pre-emptively counter with a killing blow to the enemy target.

Riding
Rank: B
Capable of riding most vehicles, but Phantasmal creatures are a no go. Based on Tomoe's ability in life to ride unbroken horses into battle.


From Azurelorochi

Here's a better profile for SimoClass : Archer / Assassin
Stat Parameters:
STR : C // END : D // MAG: E // AGI : B // LUK : A // NP: B
Noble Phantasms[/COLOR]
白霜の幕〔スノウリーパーズクローク〕
Snow Reaper's Cloak, the Curtain of White Frost
Rank : C // Type : Anti Army
A large fog area of 1 x 1 km. The temperature within the area can plummet to under -51.5 °C(lowest temperature ever recorded in Finland). Within this area of the fog, Simo's body will become one with the fog, making him intangible to physical attacks while being able to "teleport" throughout the area, allowing him to freely choose his location for shooting out the enemy without fears of ever getting hit back.
Simo's bullet shot within this fog will also have enhanced power, speed and an additional freezing ability which can cause rapid frostbite on the target who doesn't die right away after being shot.
The only ways to defeat Simo in this fog is to somehow cause the fog to disperse, which will leave Simo's physical body behind and disabling him from using Snow Reaper's Cloak again for 3 hours, another way is to completely attack the entire 1 x 1 km area of the fog which will directly attack Simo, possibly killing him in 1 hit.
For the sake of concealment, people standing outside Snow Reaper's Cloak will not be able to see the fog at all unless they have a considerably high detecting ability, making Snow Reaper's Cloak able to function as an invisibility cloak as well.
影を凍る吹雪〔ホワイトデッヅブリザード〕
White Death's Blizzard, the Snowstorm that Freezes Shadows
Rank : B // Type : Anti-Unit
The ability to shoot all 755 ice bullets from all directions at once, creating a sphere of ice bullets that simultaneously rushes at the target at once from all direction, making it nigh impossible to guard against. This is the ability manifestation of Simo's 755 recorded kills during the Winter War in the span of 100 days, the highest kill count by any snipers ever.
It flips the ideal of sniper "one-shot-one-kill" around to make a ridiculous "755-shots-one-overkill" concept especially for killing a hero, a being who is in him/herself an equivalent to an army of 755 people.
As this NP defies the sniper idealism, while it consumes very little mana in comparison to its damage potentials(Simo himself has very little mana to begin with), it is intended to be used as a last resort attack only, forcing Simo to use it only when fighting with sniper strategy is no longer available, as such, once White Death's Blizzard is shot if Snow Reaper's Cloak is still active, Snow Reaper's Cloak will instantly disperses itself, disabling Simo from setting up Snow Reaper's Cloak for the next 3 hours.

I3uster
May 7th, 2014, 05:41 PM
we dont take kindly to no wiki folk

Leftovers
May 7th, 2014, 05:44 PM
Bad fanfic writers don't need no list to wank together a Simo Huehue profile.

Also: http://forums.nrvnqsr.com/showthread.php/373-Create-a-Servant

Haseo Nanaya
May 7th, 2014, 05:49 PM
oh ok sorry. then can some one delete this then so my blunder and embarresment isn't archived in the internet forever.

I3uster
May 7th, 2014, 05:50 PM
I was joking. I am honestly just confused what this is supposed to be.

Haseo Nanaya
May 7th, 2014, 05:56 PM
speculation on who is in the throne of heroes and how they would be like as servants, useful as a fanfiction tool as well

Kuradora
May 7th, 2014, 06:44 PM
speculation on who is in the throne of heroes and how they would be like as servants, useful as a fanfiction tool as well

It would be easier to read it you made it all one color and had uniform line-breaks.

Mcjon01
May 7th, 2014, 07:42 PM
You should have hidden Simo Haya down at the bottom so people wouldn't roll their eyes and stop reading at the second line.

Vagrant
May 7th, 2014, 08:01 PM
Oh lord, really.

Look at all these Berserkers who never actually went mad in their lives! But we're definitely trying to base these choices on pre-existing rules.

Joshua didn't even wrestle God, to my knowledge. That was Jacob. Unless this incident is super obscure.

Haseo Nanaya
May 7th, 2014, 08:24 PM
Joshua didn't even wrestle God, to my knowledge. That was Jacob. Unless this incident is super obscure.


ohh woops got the two confused thanx

Arch-Magos Winter
May 7th, 2014, 09:06 PM
>Beowulf
>Celtic

He was Germanic.

Haseo Nanaya
May 7th, 2014, 09:31 PM
>Beowulf
>Celtic

He was Germanic.


It's Anglo-Saxon

Hawkeye
May 7th, 2014, 09:40 PM
@McJon: I'm guessing the hate on ol' Simo is the fact that he's way too young to be a heroic spirit. Though honestly as speculations of just who would be within the Throne of Heroes, I reckon people like him and Eric Hartman of the Luftwaffe any other heroes of the great wars would likely be there, if not for being inelligible to be summoned. After all, a hero from the Future was summoned, so timing isn't everything.

@Vagrant: I wouldn't know jack about most of the Berserkers, but I've always figured people who were thought to be Mad or Insane would qualify, even if they strictly speaking didn't fly into a rage.

@Winter: Finally, you are mistaken Sir. He's not celtic, but the epic poem he originates from is Old English and the character himself is Scandinavian.

(EDIT: Decided to change the reference to be broader. Hartman was just the first name that sprung to mind cause my friend is a huge Strike Witches fan, but I wouldn't want to be accused of Neo-Axisism or something, eh Haseo?)

Kuradora
May 7th, 2014, 09:45 PM
I'm guessing the hate on ol' Simo is the fact that he's way too young to be a heroic spirit. Though honestly as speculations of just who would be within the Throne of Heroes, I reckon people like him and Eric Hartman of the Luftwaffe would likely be there, if not for being inelligible to be summoned. After all, a hero from the Future was summoned, so timing isn't everything.


The thing with heroes from the future/past the cutoff date is that they need a contract with Alaya to become heroes, and thus don't have NPs. Another thing is that the thing that he's famous for is something that another person could have done, whereas Heroic Spirits do things that only they can do.

forumghost
May 7th, 2014, 09:45 PM
@McJon: I'm guessing the hate on ol' Simo is the fact that he's way too young to be a heroic spirit. Though honestly as speculations of just who would be within the Throne of Heroes, I reckon people like him and Eric Hartman of the Luftwaffe would likely be there, if not for being inelligible to be summoned. After all, a hero from the Future was summoned, so timing isn't everything.

Simo is

A) Too recent to be a HS
B) Too unknown to be a HS
C) Too unimpressive to be a HS
D) Uses modern weapons, so (via WoG) will receive no fame for his feats anyway

Basically, he fulfills none of the requirements to be a HS. EMIYA doesn't count, because he got in the cheats way by signing a contract with Alaya.

Hawkeye
May 7th, 2014, 09:49 PM
The thing with heroes from the future/past the cutoff date is that they need a contract with Alaya to become heroes, and thus don't have NPs. Another thing is that the thing that he's famous for is something that another person could have done, whereas Heroic Spirits do things that only they can do.


Simo is

A) Too recent to be a HS
B) Too unknown to be a HS
C) Too unimpressive to be a HS

Basically, he fulfills none of the requirements to be a HS. EMIYA doesn't count, because he got in the cheats way by signing a contract with Alaya.

But correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the Throne contain every hero there ever was or ever will be? I know Emiya's summoning is a contradiction brought about by his bargain, but a hundred plus years down the line, him and Bazett are both likely to become heroes of the modern age as stated in the character materials.

As for Simo being too obscure, too unimpressive and all, I don't know about you, but not many guys take a bullet to the face and then shoot the guy who sent it. Yeah, he doesn't possess a phantasm worthy item or the like, but feats of arms can also qualify and the like can also qualify.

Kuradora
May 7th, 2014, 09:54 PM
But correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the Throne contain every hero there ever was or ever will be? I know Emiya's summoning is a contradiction brought about by his bargain, but a hundred plus years down the line, him and Bazett are both likely to become heroes of the modern age as stated in the character materials.

As for Simo being too obscure, too unimpressive and all, I don't know about you, but not many guys take a bullet to the face and then shoot the guy who sent it. Yeah, he doesn't possess a phantasm worthy item or the like, but feats of arms can also qualify and the like can also qualify.

EMIYA's summoning is fine, since HSs exist outside the time-axis. Becoming a modern day HS requires the contract though, because modern humanity simply sucks to much to become heroes on their own.

Simo being able to shoot bullets and make them change paths and targets while in the air would be a heroic feat. Taking a bullet to the face and shooting back is awesome, but not on the level of super-human heroics.

forumghost
May 7th, 2014, 09:54 PM
As for Simo being too obscure, too unimpressive and all, I don't know about you, but not many guys take a bullet to the face and then shoot the guy who sent it. Yeah, he doesn't possess a phantasm worthy item or the like, but feats of arms can also qualify and the like can also qualify.

You don't understand. To be a HS, you need to be worshiped and recognized as 'the one and only' by the population at large- which, in the modern age = most of the planet. How many people do you think you could go up to on the street, and have them recite the legend of Simo?

As for the feats... According to Nasu, in the modern age everyone who recycles is 'Saving the World'. So surviving getting shot... is really not impressive anymore.

You're comparing him to people like Saber, who won 12 battles that were literally impossible to win, or Cu Cuchulain, who fought an entire army off on his own for a year, or people like Herakles, that can hold up the sky.

Arch-Magos Winter
May 7th, 2014, 09:56 PM
It's Anglo-Saxon
Nice edit after I pointed it out. And the Saxons were a germanic tribe you know.


@McJon: I'm guessing the hate on ol' Simo is the fact that he's way too young to be a heroic spirit. Though honestly as speculations of just who would be within the Throne of Heroes, I reckon people like him and Eric Hartman of the Luftwaffe any other heroes of the great wars would likely be there, if not for being inelligible to be summoned. After all, a hero from the Future was summoned, so timing isn't everything.

@Vagrant: I wouldn't know jack about most of the Berserkers, but I've always figured people who were thought to be Mad or Insane would qualify, even if they strictly speaking didn't fly into a rage.

@Winter: Finally, you are mistaken Sir. He's not celtic, but the epic poem he originates from is Old English and the character himself is Scandinavian.

(EDIT: Decided to change the reference to be broader. Hartman was just the first name that sprung to mind cause my friend is a huge Strike Witches fan, but I wouldn't want to be accused of Neo-Axisism or something, eh Haseo?)
True, he's Danish I think. But he's still a rather germanic hero even with those facts considered.

MissingMandible
May 7th, 2014, 10:01 PM
Couldn't Genghis Khan also be a rider?

Hawkeye
May 7th, 2014, 10:14 PM
While it is true that it's nearly impossible for people in the modern era to become Heroic Spirits, it's not entirely though.

Like I brought up, it's noted that Bazett and Shirou are people of the modern era who can become heroic spirits, but other than the weapons they borrow from other heroes, neither one has abilities that would be considered unique, so how is it they qualify, but others who left their mark on history seemingly do not?

Kuradora
May 7th, 2014, 10:16 PM
While it is true that it's nearly impossible for people in the modern era to become Heroic Spirits, it's not entirely though.

Like I brought up, it's noted that Bazett and Shirou are people of the modern era who can become heroic spirits, but other than the weapons they borrow from other heroes, neither one has abilities that would be considered unique, so how is it they qualify, but others who left their mark on history seemingly do not?

1. Where'd you hear that Bazett qualifies?
2. Shirou can only become a HS via contract.

Hawkeye
May 7th, 2014, 10:27 PM
1. Where'd you hear that Bazett qualifies?
2. Shirou can only become a HS via contract.

It's in the character material, we have links on the wiki, though I won't deny I'm having trouble finding it, which is especially irritating because my imagination isn't that good, and I know I bloody saw it.

But still, surely someone who is a war hero like Simo would qualify with time? The fact of it is, he had the same training as countless others, during the wars, thousands of individuals performed the same job as him with the same equipment, so those who achieved recognition beyond this must possess something that cannot be immitated through training? And while I understand the limitations in conjunction to modern firearms, things like early 20th century firearms are a different matter.

Not to mention, Nobunaga Oda is a heroic servant who uses firearms.

Haseo Nanaya
May 7th, 2014, 10:27 PM
Simo is

A) Too recent to be a HS
B) Too unknown to be a HS
C) Too unimpressive to be a HS
D) Uses modern weapons, so (via WoG) will receive no fame for his feats anyway

Basically, he fulfills none of the requirements to be a HS. EMIYA doesn't count, because he got in the cheats way by signing a contract with Alaya.


D) the thing is it wasn't simo's weapon that made him great. and few people could ever reach his skill. He actually did do the near impossible with his gun.
B) I'm not aware of how unknown he is when i bring him up people seem to know him
C) his ability to survive is inhuman. (have you survived a carpet bombing)
A) About him being to young. He may be recent but once you die you go straight to the throne of heroes (if your a hero).

ratstsrub
May 7th, 2014, 10:31 PM
It's in the character material, we have links on the wiki, though I won't deny I'm having trouble finding it, which is especially irritating because my imagination isn't that good, and I know I bloody saw it.

But still, surely someone who is a war hero like Simo would qualify with time? The fact of it is, he had the same training as countless others, during the wars, thousands of individuals performed the same job as him with the same equipment, so those who achieved recognition beyond this must possess something that cannot be immitated through training? And while I understand the limitations in conjunction to modern firearms, things like early 20th century firearms are a different matter.

Not to mention, Nobunaga Oda is a heroic servant who uses firearms.

Cursory glance at character material shows nothing.

forumghost
May 7th, 2014, 10:33 PM
the thing is it wasn't simo's weapon that made him great. and few people could ever reach his skill. He actually did do the near impossible with his gun. and his ability to survive is inhuman. (have you survived a carpet bombing) About him being to young. He may be recent but once you die you go straight to the throne of heroes (if your a hero).

"Near Impossible" isn't good enough. Other people have survived carpet bombings. Other people have survived being shot in the face. Which automatically means that it's not enough to enter the Throne of Heroes.

Simo was a badass who did some impressive stuff, yes. But it's on the level of "Whoa, that dude is awesome". To be a HS it needs to be "HOLY SHIT! That person is someone that can only come into existence once in all of time!"

Mattias
May 7th, 2014, 10:37 PM
D) the thing is it wasn't simo's weapon that made him great. and few people could ever reach his skill. He actually did do the near impossible with his gun.
B) I'm not aware of how unknown he is when i bring him up people seem to know him
C) his ability to survive is inhuman. (have you survived a carpet bombing)
A) About him being to young. He may be recent but once you die you go straight to the throne of heroes (if your a hero).

There's a quote somewhere saying how modern weapons are too easy to use, requiring almost no skill, so anyone who uses one wouldn't qualify, although their gun might. I forget where the quote is, but I remember the discussion devolved into Heroic Spirit AK47.

There's also one saying how humanity has become too diluted with our large numbers, so human spirits are too weak to become heroes, hence why EMIYA has to game the system.

Hawkeye
May 7th, 2014, 10:39 PM
Cursory glance at character material shows nothing.

I swear to mighty Odin I shall find this frickin' reference now!!!!

Haseo Nanaya
May 7th, 2014, 10:40 PM
"Near Impossible" isn't good enough. Other people have survived carpet bombings. Other people have survived being shot in the face. Which automatically means that it's not enough to enter the Throne of Heroes.

Simo was a badass who did some impressive stuff, yes. But it's on the level of "Whoa, that dude is awesome". To be a HS it needs to be "HOLY SHIT! That person is someone that can only come into existence once in all of time!"

What I ment was plural near impossible things. he defied death an insane amount of times. And in case any one is forgetting, SHAKESPEARE is a hero. about the once in all of time. a lot of the heroes are based off each other. Gil's NP proves this. this is my last statement on this (I feel to nerdy argueing over simo it's makeing me feel bad chuckle)

You
May 7th, 2014, 10:41 PM
While it is true that it's nearly impossible for people in the modern era to become Heroic Spirits, it's not entirely though.

Like I brought up, it's noted that Bazett and Shirou are people of the modern era who can become heroic spirits, but other than the weapons they borrow from other heroes, neither one has abilities that would be considered unique, so how is it they qualify, but others who left their mark on history seemingly do not?

Anyone can be a Heroic Spirit; they just have to make a pact. However unless they are famous they will end up Counter Guardians.
However, even if you make a pact, and end up famous enough, you can bypass the Counter Guardian-ship.
So Nasu isn't saying people in the current era can't be heroic spirit, he says explicitly that


Although modern weapons are powerful, it is difficult for the users of modern weapons to be classified as Heroic Spirits. The advantage of modern weapons is "anyone can use them as long as they were trained", thus it is difficult for the user to become a Heroic Spirit, whose definition is "the one and only".

Modern people who use modern weapons cannot be Heroic Spirits.
Also like someone said since world saving is easy these days, no one cares.
So combine those two, and that's why it's insanely hard for a person in the current era to become a Heroic Spirit WITH THEIR OWN POWER.
Anyone with the know how can make the pact.

Kuradora
May 7th, 2014, 10:44 PM
What I ment was plural near impossible things. he defied death an insane amount of times. And in case any one is forgetting, SHAKESPEARE is a hero. about the once in all of time. a lot of the heroes are based off each other. Gil's NP proves this. this is my last statement on this (I feel to nerdy argueing over simo it's makeing me feel bad chuckle)

Well, for Shakespeare:
1. It's fanfiction
2. Nasu would probably come up with something about his unique writing and how it changed the world forever.

Gil's NP proves that NP are based on one another.

Haseo Nanaya
May 7th, 2014, 10:45 PM
@You
what if Simo was so good and defended his home because he made a pact. so he might be counter guardian. lol

Hawkeye
May 7th, 2014, 10:47 PM
There's a quote somewhere saying how modern weapons are too easy to use, requiring almost no skill, so anyone who uses one wouldn't qualify, although their gun might. I forget where the quote is, but I remember the discussion devolved into Heroic Spirit AK47.

There's also one saying how humanity has become too diluted with our large numbers, so human spirits are too weak to become heroes, hence why EMIYA has to game the system.

Here ya go

Comptiq special issue - Fate Dojo special edition:
Q: If there are Heroic Spirits like Archer, who was summoned independent of time axis, is it possible for warriors from the future, who are loaded with modern weapons, to be summoned as Servants? English | Japanese Q: If there are Heroic Spirits like Archer, who was summoned independent of time axis, is it possible for warriors from the future, who are loaded with modern weapons, to be summoned as Servants?

A: Although modern weapons are powerful, it is difficult for the users of modern weapons to be classified as Heroic Spirits. The advantage of modern weapons is "anyone can use them as long as they were trained", thus it is difficult for the user to become a Heroic Spirit, whose definition is "the one and only". The users of modern weapons are faceless heroes. If there are indeed heroes who are loaded with modern weapons, the users will not become Heroic Spirits, as they are merely "experts anyone can achieve through sufficient training". The actual Heroic Spirits being worshiped will be the "greatest weapon of that era". However, for the weapon to become a Heroic Spirit in this case, it must harbour a soul.



But what qualifies as a 'Modern' weapon is where I stumble. Cause if you look at the advancement of technology, we certainly have more accurate and less skill requiring weapons than compared to the turn of the last century.

Haseo Nanaya
May 7th, 2014, 10:50 PM
Here ya go
. The actual Heroic Spirits being worshiped will be the "greatest weapon of that era". However, for the weapon to become a Heroic Spirit in this case, it must harbour a soul.


Nananko as Archer. FTW

Rafflesiac
May 7th, 2014, 10:50 PM
D) the thing is it wasn't simo's weapon that made him great. and few people could ever reach his skill. He actually did do the near impossible with his gun.
B) I'm not aware of how unknown he is when i bring him up people seem to know him
C) his ability to survive is inhuman. (have you survived a carpet bombing)
A) About him being to young. He may be recent but once you die you go straight to the throne of heroes (if your a hero).
A) It's not about the age of the person in question, but how long ago they did their deeds. Simo Hayha did all of his accomplishments too late for them to be incomprehensible enough to reach hero-tier.
B) To be known enough to be a Heroic Spirit, your deeds have to be known by a major portion of humanity for hundreds if not thousands of years. Even the most historically recent Servants, Frankenstein and Jack the Ripper, were from the 1800s, 200 years ago.
C) Simo's an excellent sniper who survived a lot of things. But there are other excellent snipers who have survived a lot of things. To be impressive enough to be a Heroic Spirit, you need to do the literally impossible - things like collapsing castles with a single swing of a sword, or completing 12 trials from the gods themselves, or warping the laws of causality and physics to unerringly stab people in the heart.
D) Guns and other modern machinery overshadow the person who uses them, so on the off chance that somehow someone did impressive enough deeds to be considered Heroic, the weapons would get the credit. Nasu said himself that modern weaponry and techniques nullify a person's chances to be a Heroic Spirit.

Haseo Nanaya
May 7th, 2014, 10:54 PM
If you think the weapon gets the cred instead of simo. go look up his gun. he is described as the best sniper with the worst gun. he probally could have down better with a bow.

Gahhh I went back to Simo. sigh

forumghost
May 7th, 2014, 11:02 PM
If you think the weapon gets the cred instead of simo. go look up his gun. he is described as the best sniper with the worst gun. he probally could have down better with a bow.

Gahhh I went back to Simo. sigh

That just means that his particular gun was the most speshulestest of that particular model of gun.

You
May 7th, 2014, 11:04 PM
@You
what if Simo was so good and defended his home because he made a pact. so he might be counter guardian. lol
That's fine.
Anyone can be wanked to be a counter guardian.
I'm making a sheet about Counter Guardian You's Mother as we speak.

Kuradora
May 7th, 2014, 11:07 PM
@You
what if Simo was so good and defended his home because he made a pact. so he might be counter guardian. lol

Then no NP.

Haseo Nanaya
May 7th, 2014, 11:09 PM
Then no NP.
He's Simo He don't need one.
But why don't Counter Guardians get NP. give source.

forumghost
May 7th, 2014, 11:17 PM
He's Simo He don't need one.
But why don't Counter Guardians get NP. give source.

A NP is representative of the Hero's legend- Gil has GoB because Legend says that he owned everything. Cu has Gae Bolg because he never missed the heart. Saber has Excalibeams because she killed 1000 men in one slash. etc, etc

CG are heroes without legends. No Legend=No NP.

Archer is just a cheating cheater who happens to have a hax ability that grants him a pseudo-NP.

Kuradora
May 7th, 2014, 11:17 PM
He's Simo He don't need one.
But why don't Counter Guardians get NP. give source.

NPs are crystallizations of a hero's legend. CGs have no legend.

I would presume that if they had one in life, they'd have one as a CG, but I've no sauce for that pasta.

Edit: Sniped by forumghost

Hawkeye
May 7th, 2014, 11:19 PM
B) To be known enough to be a Heroic Spirit, your deeds have to be known by a major portion of humanity for hundreds if not thousands of years. Even the most historically recent Servants, Frankenstein and Jack the Ripper, were from the 1800s, 200 years ago.


You're off. It's 1800s alright, but Jack's as recent as 1891, so it's 120 years, there abouts.

Similarly, Li Shuwen in Extra was much more moden, only dying in the 30s.

forumghost
May 7th, 2014, 11:21 PM
You're off. It's 1800s alright, but Jack's as recent as 1891, so it's 120 years, there abouts.

Similarly, Li Shuwen in Extra was much more moden, only dying in the 30s.

Extra Servants have different criteria. It's also how Tamamo qualified despite being a Divine Spirit.

Daiki
May 7th, 2014, 11:21 PM
Li Shuwen is summoned in the mooncell.

And lolapocrypha.

Hawkeye
May 7th, 2014, 11:24 PM
Extra Servants have different criteria. It's also how Tamamo qualified despite being a Divine Spirit.

Actually their criteria is pretty much the same, only the restriction on Eastern Heroes is lifted. Caster basically downgraded herself to participate.

Li Shuwen died in the 30s, but the Moon Cell war is supposed set around the year 2030, so it's still a 100 year gap, but he's still a hero from a more recent era.

Megas
May 7th, 2014, 11:26 PM
Source: The VN​



"…Tohsaka. Um, what is this 'Noble Phantasm'?"

http://lparchive.org/Fatestay-night/Update%2031/11-rinU02a.png
"It's the symbol that the Servant used in their life. Heroes and their holy swords or demonic swords come as a set, right? So in other words, their weapons."
"…? Weapons… you mean like Saber's invisible sword?"

http://lparchive.org/Fatestay-night/Update%2031/20-rinU05a.png
"Yeah. I don't know what history it has, but it certainly is her Noble Phantasm.

http://lparchive.org/Fatestay-night/Update%2031/17-rinU04a.png
I don't think I even need to say, but heroes cannot stay in a legend with just their names.
They each have a weapon that became their trademark.
That is the most powerful weapon, called a Noble Phantasm, the crystallization of people's desire for a miracle."

"Hmm… so in short, a powerful magical item?"

http://lparchive.org/Fatestay-night/Update%2031/15-rinU03a.png
"Right. To be blunt, heroes themselves cannot match powerful spells or divine mysteries.
But it's a different story when the Noble Phantasms come in.
Heroes wielding Noble Phantasms can even defeat spirits of several ranks higher.
It's because most holy and demonic swords appearing in legends are close to the level of sorcery."

Kuradora
May 7th, 2014, 11:27 PM
Actually their criteria is pretty much the same, only the restriction on Eastern Heroes is lifted. Caster basically downgraded herself to participate.

Li Shuwen died in the 30s, but the Moon Cell war is supposed set around the year 2030, so it's still a 100 year gap, but he's still a hero from a more recent era.

On the other hand, he's got super-human kungfu that normal people can't possess. Shuwen is more likely to qualify than normal modern humans, what with his ability to turn invisible and shred people's souls with his bare hands.

You
May 7th, 2014, 11:31 PM
And considering his invisibility is said to be beyond magecraft.

Hawkeye
May 7th, 2014, 11:36 PM
On the other hand, he's got super-human kungfu that normal people can't possess. Shuwen is more likely to qualify than normal modern humans, what with his ability to turn invisible and shred people's souls with his bare hands.

My whole point there is that he's a hero from the last century. Living (Sorta) proof that heroic entities can rise from modern humans. I'm not denying any sort of difficulty in achieving this level, but if Li Shuwen, who learned a martial art to the level of 'One who cannot be matched' it shouldn't be entirely impossible to achieve this with a crappy rifle of the same era as Li Shuwen.

Megas
May 7th, 2014, 11:38 PM
There's also the part where he was only summoned from the moon cell, where people who aren't heroic spirits can be summoned.

forumghost
May 7th, 2014, 11:39 PM
^^Maybe if you were such a good shot that you were able to warp the laws of reality to your whim. And even then you'd need to get around the 'no modern weapons' clause.

Kuradora
May 7th, 2014, 11:40 PM
My whole point there is that he's a hero from the last century. Living (Sorta) proof that heroic entities can rise from modern humans. I'm not denying any sort of difficulty in achieving this level, but if Li Shuwen, who learned a martial art to the level of 'One who cannot be matched' it shouldn't be entirely impossible to achieve this with a crappy rifle of the same era as Li Shuwen.

Simo Hahya couldn't shoot people in the soul or change bullet trajectories. He was an awesome if normal dude, never mind that there are likely better snipers than him alive.

Megas
May 7th, 2014, 11:40 PM
Nameless farmer was SO good at killing birds with his sword he broke the laws of physics, yet he's not a heroic spirit. Why would Simo Haya be?

Haseo Nanaya
May 7th, 2014, 11:43 PM
He broke Laws of inertia by killing 5 guys with one bullet from an incredible distance. the 5 guys were wearing armour most likely with a gun that by all acounts shouldnt be able to send a bullet through one body if not at point blank. there you go he broke reality.

Daiki
May 7th, 2014, 11:45 PM
Actually their criteria is pretty much the same, only the restriction on Eastern Heroes is lifted. Caster basically downgraded herself to participate.

So much the same criteria, you get to see Excalibur Image, Alice, Arcueid and Ryougi as Servants.

Kuradora
May 7th, 2014, 11:45 PM
He broke Laws of inertia by killing 5 guys with one bullet from an incredible distance. the 5 guys were wearing armour most likely with a gun that by all acounts shouldnt be able to send a bullet through one body if not at point blank. there you go he broke reality.

Not good enough, I'm afraid. He needs to do stuff like Rip Van Winkle level bullet trickery.

Haseo Nanaya
May 7th, 2014, 11:45 PM
Simo Hahya couldn't shoot people in the soul or change bullet trajectories. He was an awesome if normal dude, never mind that there are likely better snipers than him alive.

since he's a real person of course not. but in the nasuverse he probally did.( thats how no one survived getting shot by him, it was there soul he shot)

Hawkeye
May 7th, 2014, 11:46 PM
Simo Hahya couldn't shoot people in the soul or change bullet trajectories. He was an awesome if normal dude, never mind that there are likely better snipers than him alive.

I'm pretty sure the Real Li Shuwen never ripped a guy's soul apart with his bare hands either, but we are dealing with a certain level of fiction here.


Nameless farmer was SO good at killing birds with his sword he broke the laws of physics, yet he's not a heroic spirit. Why would Simo Haya be?

Because his name was forgotten, and yet the feats of nameless men came together to create a Wraith on the level of a Heroic Spirit.

So why wouldn't a man whose name is remembered amongst the thousands with the same skill set, not be?

When everyone has the same weapon, was taught the same things, surely the one amongst the millions whose name rose above the rest is worthy of being a heroic spirit?

Arashi_Leonhart
May 7th, 2014, 11:46 PM
Nameless farmer was SO good at killing birds with his sword he broke the laws of physics, yet he's not a heroic spirit. Why would Simo Haya be?

This. Get me a rifle shot that requires you actually bend space-time, then maybe you'll have people who'll buy it.

You
May 7th, 2014, 11:46 PM
My whole point there is that he's a hero from the last century. Living (Sorta) proof that heroic entities can rise from modern humans. I'm not denying any sort of difficulty in achieving this level, but if Li Shuwen, who learned a martial art to the level of 'One who cannot be matched' it shouldn't be entirely impossible to achieve this with a crappy rifle of the same era as Li Shuwen.

How do you know Li Shuwen didn't ask Alaya for those powers and just got really famous so he didn't have to be a Counter Guardian?

Haseo Nanaya
May 7th, 2014, 11:48 PM
BREAKING THE LAWS OF REALITY is not good enough wow high standards

Hawkeye
May 7th, 2014, 11:48 PM
So much the same criteria, you get to see Excalibur Image, Alice, Arcueid and Ryougi as Servants.

Yeah, cause Gilles de Rais, Kojirou Sasaki and Angra Mainyu were such sticklers for the rules.

Kuradora
May 7th, 2014, 11:49 PM
^ The first and last of those three are legit heroes and Sasaki doesn't count only because the farmer had no legend and the swordsman was fictional.


I'm pretty sure the Real Li Shuwen never ripped a guy's soul apart with his bare hands either, but we are dealing with a certain level of fiction here.


The difference is that there are legends of Shuwen screwing up people's nerves and killing them with just his qi in the real world. Simo doesn't have such surreal legends about him.

Arashi_Leonhart
May 7th, 2014, 11:50 PM
BREAKING THE LAWS OF REALITY is not good enough wow high standards

Which is another thing about HS. They are cited to actually defy fate. Rifle shots are in the category of "given enough time and technology you're gonna be able to replicate it." Saving someone fated to die another matter.

Megas
May 7th, 2014, 11:50 PM
Yeah, cause Gilles de Rais, Kojirou Sasaki and Angra Mainyu were such sticklers for the rules.

Was not a heroic spirit. Didn't even actually exist to tell the truth

EDIT: Sniped

Hawkeye
May 7th, 2014, 11:51 PM
How do you know Li Shuwen didn't ask Alaya for those powers and just got really famous so he didn't have to be a Counter Guardian?

You're serious? That's what you're going with? I dunno, how do you know Simo didn't make a deal with Alaya to put shots through over 500 men in 100 days in limited daylight?

You
May 7th, 2014, 11:53 PM
Someone should rename the topic tm wikia vs bl

Kuradora
May 7th, 2014, 11:53 PM
You're serious? That's what you're going with? I dunno, how do you know Simo didn't make a deal with Alaya to put shots through over 500 men in 100 days in limited daylight?

Because that's not impossible, just extremely hard.

Megas
May 7th, 2014, 11:53 PM
You're serious? That's what you're going with? I dunno, how do you know Simo didn't make a deal with Alaya to put shots through over 500 men in 100 days in limited daylight?

This would require him to know that he could make deals with Alaya.

Haseo Nanaya
May 7th, 2014, 11:55 PM
During the winter were, There were some crazy rumours about him among the red army. It's why he's called the white death. The rumors were only 'disproved' on the basis that this is real life.

Hawkeye
May 7th, 2014, 11:55 PM
Was not a heroic spirit. Didn't even actually exist to tell the truth

EDIT: Sniped

... I was answering someone who brought up "So much the same criteria, you get to see Excalibur Image, Alice, Arcueid and Ryougi as Servants."

From A Fake Hero, A Fake Hero and two fictional characters of the series. The point is that with Sasaki in the main continuity, pointing out characters who break the rules in Extra does not counter the idea that the Moon Cell and the Fuyuki war are at least 'supposed' to work under similar criteria for their heroes.

forumghost
May 7th, 2014, 11:56 PM
Because that's not impossible, just extremely hard.

Exactly. HS tier shooting would be "Fired my bullet backwards through time to kill your father" or "I can shoot through the gaps between molecules"

You
May 7th, 2014, 11:56 PM
You're serious? That's what you're going with? I dunno, how do you know Simo didn't make a deal with Alaya to put shots through over 500 men in 100 days in limited daylight?

Yeah, he could have? I don't see your point cos it can apply to basically almost any Heroic Spirit that they got Alaya to help.
I mean if you want to say Simo is a Heroic Spirit because he made a pact and is really famous, so he's a Heroic Spirit. That's fine, but you should put that on the sheet somewhere so people don't think you mean he became a Heroic Spirit on his own. Which is what everyone is arguing here.

Megas
May 7th, 2014, 11:56 PM
Umm, you do realize Kojirou was specifically summoned by Caster breaking the rules right?

ratstsrub
May 7th, 2014, 11:57 PM
I swear to mighty Odin I shall find this frickin' reference now!!!!

It might help if you can narrow it down to:

If it's actually in character material
Or world material
Or hollow material
Or zero material
Or extra material (lol)

Or one of the many side materials.

Vagrant
May 7th, 2014, 11:57 PM
ITT: Plebs are anally devestated that their precious Snipah isn't a Heroic Servant.

More news at eleven!

Hawkeye
May 8th, 2014, 12:02 AM
Umm, you do realize Kojirou was specifically summoned by Caster breaking the rules right?

And EMIYA is a walking FU to the rules, Alice used the Maiden's Empire thing to summon Nursury Rhyme, Arc, I can't begin to explain, she actually appears to be the Arc from the main Type Moon reality, so I have no clue what happened there, and Shiki is also an abberation. Pointing out an abberation of Extra's rules does not mean its rules don't follow the same criteria as the main Heaven's Feel, just that there are also ways around Extra's rules.


It might help if you can narrow it down to:

If it's actually in character material
Or world material
Or hollow material
Or zero material
Or extra material (lol)

Or one of the many side materials.

I don't even know anymore. I've been searching for hours through all of the ones we have, but I haven't been able to find it. I think it was literally from someone asking Nasu if there was anyone in the modern era who could become a heroic spirit, but since I can't even find the question, I'm going slightly mad with this thing. :(

Haseo Nanaya
May 8th, 2014, 12:03 AM
Simo's Bio

A counter Guardian that made a pact with Alaya to protect his homeland. Due to his fame, he has become a heroic spirit and is no longer bound to Alaya.


Does this work?

@vagrant it's 11:05 wheres the more news

Arashi_Leonhart
May 8th, 2014, 12:03 AM
I'm kind of getting flashes from Amaranth wanking Bolivar here. I guess it has been a while since the last person tried to wank x obscure recent historical figure.

Kuradora
May 8th, 2014, 12:03 AM
And EMIYA is a walking FU to the rules, Alice used the Maiden's Empire thing to summon Nursury Rhyme, Arc, I can't begin to explain, she actually appears to be the Arc from the main Type Moon reality, so I have no clue what happened there, and Shiki is also an abberation. Pointing out an abberation of Extra's rules does not mean its rules don't follow the same criteria as the main Heaven's Feel, just that there are also ways around Extra's rules.


Arc is just fanservice. Shiki is also fanservice. EXTRA doesn't follow Fuyuki rules in the first place.

Megas
May 8th, 2014, 12:04 AM
But why did he contract with Alaya? How would he become a legit heroic spirit after the fact without an NP?

Since he can't become a legit HS without an NP...

Daiki
May 8th, 2014, 12:04 AM
This thread should be in GD. Mods, pls.


I'm kind of getting flashes from Amaranth wanking Bolivar here. I guess it has been a while since the last person tried to wank x obscure recent historical figure.

I so wanted to read this fanfic of his though.

Hawkeye
May 8th, 2014, 12:04 AM
ITT: Plebs are anally devestated that their precious Snipah isn't a Heroic Servant.

More news at eleven!

If you have nothing constructive to add, please go away.

Arch-Magos Winter
May 8th, 2014, 12:08 AM
Amaranth's Bolivar was honestly far worse.

Simo could be a CG (It'd explain his Killcount) but the Mosin Nagant Model 91 clone Simo was NOT by the standards of the day an outdated rife, or even a crap one. The Mosin served well in WWI, the Russian Civil War, and WWII. And a 7.62x54 R going through a few people to lethal effect is to me believable. The bullet would easily have enough kinetic power behind it to go through one guy and into another. Basically, Simo wouldn't be a heroic spirit. Sure he's got some fame, but he doesn't have the fucking cult devoted to his honor and the pope venerating him like Joan of Arc did. He'd be stuck as a CG forever.

Haseo Nanaya
May 8th, 2014, 12:08 AM
the fear that the red army had for him was formed into his NP with Alaya's help ... or somethin

Megas
May 8th, 2014, 12:10 AM
the fear that the red army had for him was formed into his NP with Alaya's help ... or somethin

Why would Alaya help him become a legit heroic spirit? He's more useful as a CG to Alaya.

Arch-Magos Winter
May 8th, 2014, 12:11 AM
the fear that the red army had for him was formed into his NP with Alaya's help ... or somethin
Blah blah blah, it wouldn't work. Sure that could easily be a CG ability, that he inspires fear from being whispering death, but it wouldn't make him a Heroic Spirit.

He's too young, too little known, and simply didn't do the balls out impossible. There were snipers with similar kill counts in WWII, and Machinegunners in WWI arguably have higher individual kill counts than Simo.

Arashi_Leonhart
May 8th, 2014, 12:28 AM
I so wanted to read this fanfic of his though.

So you could read reviews going "Who the hell is Simon Bolivar?" and laugh heartily into the night?

Hawkeye
May 8th, 2014, 12:33 AM
So you could read reviews going "Who the hell is Simon Bolivar?" and laugh heartily into the night?

.... Given what side of the debate I'm on, I kinda dread to ask, but, who is Simon Bolivar?

Vagrant
May 8th, 2014, 12:35 AM
If you have nothing constructive to add, please go away.
It's been explained why it's not possible. Yet you persist.

If you have nothing constructive to add, please go away.

Hawkeye
May 8th, 2014, 12:37 AM
It's been explained why it's not possible. Yet you persist.

If you have nothing constructive to add, please go away.

I knew it wasn't feasible from the start due to his age. I'm debating how his other feats wouldn't qualify in a further instance. You on the other hand have added nothing to this discussion since your first post and your second was just to sit and call us butthurt. If that's the standard for constructive around here, I dread for this site.

SeiKeo
May 8th, 2014, 12:38 AM
Bit blasted in the butt, perhaps.

Haseo Nanaya
May 8th, 2014, 12:41 AM
refer to my sig

Arch-Magos Winter
May 8th, 2014, 12:41 AM
.... Given what side of the debate I'm on, I kinda dread to ask, but, who is Simon Bolivar?
The guy Bolivia was named after. Freed most of Spanish South America. Big deal in South America.

Or you know, you could just google him like a normal person would

Hawkeye
May 8th, 2014, 12:45 AM
The guy Bolivia was named after. Freed most of Spanish South America. Big deal in South America.

Or you know, you could just google him like a normal person would

I coulda, but I was interested to see what the response would be. A country named after him, that's pretty interesting actually.

Still, it's like 6am here, so I'm gonna drop. Back later.

ratstsrub
May 8th, 2014, 01:07 AM
I knew it wasn't feasible from the start due to his age. I'm debating how his other feats wouldn't qualify in a further instance. You on the other hand have added nothing to this discussion since your first post and your second was just to sit and call us butthurt. If that's the standard for constructive around here, I dread for this site.

I dread for you.

Spinach
May 8th, 2014, 02:00 AM
Worst Thread 2014

forumghost
May 8th, 2014, 02:06 AM
Worst Thread 2014

ROFL. You think this is the lowest we can go? You give us too little credit.

Arashi_Leonhart
May 8th, 2014, 02:19 AM
Jealousy is unbecoming, Spin.

Spinach
May 8th, 2014, 02:45 AM
Jealousy is unbecoming, Spin.

Look, I tried, I really really tried to make the worst thread, but sometimes you have to admit you've been outdone.

Vagrant
May 8th, 2014, 02:57 AM
Sakura is eligible to be a Heroic Spirit because her suffering was legendary and she is worthy of becoming a heroine. Discuss.

forumghost
May 8th, 2014, 03:03 AM
Sakura is eligible to be a Heroic Spirit because her suffering was legendary and she is worthy of becoming a heroine. Discuss.

What would her Noble Phantasm be?

Vagrant
May 8th, 2014, 03:14 AM
All The World's Evils

- - - Updated - - -

It's like Pandora's Box. Except, you know... Sakura's.

forumghost
May 8th, 2014, 03:21 AM
All The World's Evils

- - - Updated - - -

It's like Pandora's Box. Except, you know... Sakura's.

Lewd

Haseo Nanaya
May 8th, 2014, 10:18 AM
Can Servant:sakura defeat vampire satsuki + depletion garden

Vagrant
May 8th, 2014, 10:29 AM
Her skilled prostitute vagina sucks in prana faster than Satsuki can deplete it. So sure, she wins. Why not?

Haseo Nanaya
May 8th, 2014, 10:32 AM
But because of the completely depleted and lifeless area it becomes like downtown so Sakura would get mobbed by clients?

Hawkeye
May 8th, 2014, 11:04 AM
Sakura as a servant, wow, that, would be an experience.

I guess it would be like the final boss of CCC

terraablaze
May 8th, 2014, 11:29 AM
Did everyone on the Internet read that one Cracked article? Or is knowing who Simo is some sort of mandatory reading people do before getting online?

Rafflesiac
May 8th, 2014, 11:32 AM
Did everyone on the Internet read that one Cracked article? Or is knowing who Simo is some sort of mandatory reading people do before getting online?
He was in both that Cracked article and a Badass of the Week thing. And scores a mention in a few history textbooks.

I heard of them through a textbook and was reminded through Cracked.

Spinach
May 8th, 2014, 11:32 AM
It's Badass of the Week. Pretty sure he was featured there and it all took off.

I3uster
May 8th, 2014, 11:44 AM
Idk he Hartmann and Lyuda were wanked by military nerds for a loooooong time

SeiKeo
May 8th, 2014, 11:46 AM
Hartmann at least is legit.

Five_X
May 8th, 2014, 01:53 PM
le rommel face

Aladar
May 8th, 2014, 02:40 PM
So, theoretically, a gun user who is insane in his gun usage, could qualify as a HS, right?

I'm talking gun kata and bullet curving and making the shots track the target or something.

Also, what kind of a HS do you think can stand on par with Gilgamesh? As in, aside from the existing Servants, which kind of legendary hero/anti-hero can go toe to toe with the King?

Arch-Magos Winter
May 8th, 2014, 02:58 PM
Hartmann stole Hitler's hat. That automatically makes him awesome.

Megas
May 8th, 2014, 03:00 PM
So, theoretically, a gun user who is insane in his gun usage, could qualify as a HS, right?

I'm talking gun kata and bullet curving and making the shots track the target or something.

Also, what kind of a HS do you think can stand on par with Gilgamesh? As in, aside from the existing Servants, which kind of legendary hero/anti-hero can go toe to toe with the King?

The point of Gilgamesh is that he's peerless. Nobody really can.

Closest you can probably get is Karna if Gil decides not to use Enkidu.

Arch-Magos Winter
May 8th, 2014, 03:04 PM
So, theoretically, a gun user who is insane in his gun usage, could qualify as a HS, right?

I'm talking gun kata and bullet curving and making the shots track the target or something.

Also, what kind of a HS do you think can stand on par with Gilgamesh? As in, aside from the existing Servants, which kind of legendary hero/anti-hero can go toe to toe with the King?
Depending on how the Spear of Destiny works, Longinus has a very good chance to none of killing Gil. Archer Herk would utterly wreck shit.

I really can't think of much else. I suppose Karna could kill him.

Megas
May 8th, 2014, 03:08 PM
Archer Herk probably has the same problem Karna does though, as in, Enkidu to the face means he's screwed. In archer form he doesn't have enhanced strength to break out either.

Plus, I kind of assumed 'toe-to-toe fight' meant a straight fight, which means Gil puts up all his bullshit shields that he has.

I honestly don't see a heroic spirit matching Gil, unless they totally catch him by surprise/blindside him.

Aladar
May 8th, 2014, 03:40 PM
Theoretically, a HS Cain, with a NP based on God's promise to strike sevenfold whoever harms Cain, coupled with the recognition because of the advent of Christianity in the modern world, might mean he can draw even with Gil at his strongest.

But that duel means mutually assured destruction for Earth itself as it means Ea being reflected back sevenfold.

Anyone, shouldn't Cain have some level of MEoDP? I mean, as legend has it, he invented murder. Going by what we know of Aviceborn's NP, ADAM was on his way to total immortality because there was no death in Eden. Cain brought death to Eden. By Nasu logic, he can conceptualize lines and dots of death on things that by the very law of nature, shouldn't have them.

Gonna try brainstorming some other legendary figure on that level. If there are any. Gotta be at least as ancient as Gil anyway, cause it needs a broken OP legend.

Arashi_Leonhart
May 8th, 2014, 03:51 PM
1. He didn't bring anything to Eden. Adam and Eve were already cast out of Eden by the time Cain and Abel were born.
2. MEoDP aren't natural to a human brain.
3. MeoDP aren't a form of murder. They actualize the destiny (read: the inevitable end) of things.

Arch-Magos Winter
May 8th, 2014, 03:56 PM
Cain would be actually a decent candidate for an Avenger, in a way. If he would even fit the class, because I think that's just a custom container for AM right? Otherwise you could make him an Assassin I guess.

Cain would likely be younger than Gilgamesh in age (Judaism really only took off way after Uruk) but he'd have a much much bigger fame boost, due to the spread of Abrahamic religions. Theoretically he could take on Gilgamesh and win due to an 'Avenged Sevenfold' power.

Aladar
May 8th, 2014, 04:06 PM
1. He didn't bring anything to Eden. Adam and Eve were already cast out of Eden by the time Cain and Abel were born.
2. MEoDP aren't natural to a human brain.
3. MeoDP aren't a form of murder. They actualize the destiny (read: the inevitable end) of things.

While I agree with 1. (didn't know that) and 2., I still think the guy who invented murder (going by his legend) is a good as candidate as any to have MEoDP. His was the first recorded dotstab or something.

SeiKeo
May 8th, 2014, 04:11 PM
No but that's the point, it's not actually about murder.

Arashi_Leonhart
May 8th, 2014, 04:35 PM
While I agree with 1. (didn't know that) and 2., I still think the guy who invented murder (going by his legend) is a good as candidate as any to have MEoDP. His was the first recorded dotstab or something.

Murder is the taking of life prior to its natural end. Direct Death Eyes are the actualization of an inevitable end. If it were murder, then Shiki would not be able to stab a skywalk and cause it to die.

ItsaRandomUsername
May 8th, 2014, 05:13 PM
We already have Create a Servant for this line of thought, guys.

Thread locked-a-rooney.