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Counterguardian
March 15th, 2011, 12:25 AM
Now here's where we can all stick the icky, sticky and brain-bleachy results of our fanwanking here on the new forums. Want to know what would happen if Araya constructed a bar instead of an apartment and Kotomine walks in? Discuss it here!


Have a wild idea that just happens to explain everything in the Nasuverse but there's probably no way in freaking hell that Nasu will ever acknowledge that for fear of breaking the fourth, fifth and sixth walls? Bring it.


And what if Archerko woke in bed next to Lancer?


From mundane theories explaining the seafood metaphors to ideas that explain entire ROUTES (I still think Roa's origin is "tsundere"), we want to hea- I mean read them.



Oh and before I forget.

http://i947.photobucket.com/albums/ad315/Counterguardian/General/wallachia.png



Aaand go.

ItsaRandomUsername
March 15th, 2011, 12:27 AM
Theory:

Rani VIII is Sion Eltnam Atlasia's homunculus daughter.

Counterguardian
March 15th, 2011, 12:58 AM
Are we talking normal Sion or Dust of Osiris Sion?

ItsaRandomUsername
March 15th, 2011, 01:32 AM
I'd say Dust of Osiris, because I doubt normal Sion would use her own flesh and blood like that (going of to participate in a potentially lethal competition). Dust is all about results and research, y'know.

Counterguardian
March 15th, 2011, 01:37 AM
"imma maek a babby 4 science"?

Twelveseal
March 15th, 2011, 04:13 AM
Religious Rage, Go!

Crimson Moon is Nasu's version of YHWH, and the True Ancestors are angels. Think about it.

MZeroX
March 15th, 2011, 04:20 AM
Crimson Moon is Nasu's version of YHWH, and the True Ancestors are angels. Think about it.
wait, this is speculation, not canon? what have i been reading...?

alfheimwanderer
March 15th, 2011, 05:48 AM
I'd say Dust of Osiris, because I doubt normal Sion would use her own flesh and blood like that (going of to participate in a potentially lethal competition). Dust is all about results and research, y'know.

So, because its the Nasuverse...something like this?

607

Dartz
March 15th, 2011, 11:16 AM
Religious Rage, Go!

Crimson Moon is Nasu's version of YHWH, and the True Ancestors are angels. Think about it.

So that's why Arcueid was born on december 25th?

Mazyrian
March 15th, 2011, 01:23 PM
Arcueid is Jesus? Roa is Judas then, and at the end of her route she dies for our sins. And on the Good end, she comes back at the third (aprox) day.
Wait, so the Armageddon (that is, Notes) is near?

hbomb
March 15th, 2011, 08:29 PM
Arcueid is Jesus? Roa is Judas then, and at the end of her route she dies for our sins. And on the Good end, she comes back at the third (aprox) day.
Wait, so the Armageddon (that is, Notes) is near?

and the Gun God is supposedly the next messiah?

Twelveseal
March 16th, 2011, 01:37 AM
a few points to consider:
1) TA's are called the children of CM, and are almost always male. Angels are called the children of God, and are almost always male. When Angels fall from grace, they become Demon Lords. It is said in some legends that the blood of angels, and definitely the blood of Christ, can make you immortal. Angels are usually depicted with an idealized human form. TA's are said to have been made in the image of the original, ideal humans in order to blend in. Logic dictates that the original humans must have existed at the time that TA's first attempted to blend in.

2) The Holy Church almost never has conflicts with the TA's, under any circumstances, according to Tsukihime, despite their status as the original vampires. The Church and the TA's were on sufficiently good terms with one another that sending an emissary was deemed acceptable to the Ancestors, allowing Roa to get close to Arc in the first place. A lot of trust there. The Church treats the two most devout followers of the Crimson Moon extremely well, all things considered. Both Merem and Blackmore are Heretics twice over as vampires, and then again as a Magus and a Devil conjuror. Both are clearly more devoted to Crimson Moon than the Church, and yet they allow both to exist, one as a member of their own order. In addition, Crimson Moon, despite his death, holds the Number Three spot on the Twenty-Seven Ancestors, a significant number to the Church in the form of the Holy Trinity: Father, Son, and Holy Ghost (Hmmm, ghost).

3) The tale of Merem bears an eerie resemblance to the story of Sodom and Gomorrah. Likewise, Notes and Armageddon have many similarities, with God controlling the events of Armageddon, and CM controlling Notes. On other similarities, the YHWH in the old Testament has a fixation on blood. Kain's sacrifice was not a blood sacrifice as Abel's was, the Nile is turned to blood as a plague, the use of blood as a marker against the final plague, and God even commands Moses that the Hebrews are not to consume blood, as it is the sacrifice reserved for God alone. On another note of similarity, the followers of the True Ancestors are given the name Apostle, a term usually reserved for the followers of God's son. Further, in Islam, YHWH is strongly tied with the moon. One of the Prophet Mohammed's miracles was to pluck the Moon from the sky. Some even point out that the name Allah is also the name of an ancient Arabic Moon God. In addition, Alt Nagel, a pillar of blood-red, fire-like wind that links Heaven and Earth bears a striking resemblance to the pillar of fire that links heaven and earth and protected the Hebrews from the Pharaoh's armies as they fled Egypt.

4) If one thinks of Crimson Moon as an elemental native to the Moon who possesses Marble Phantasm, then many of the miracles performed by God become possible. The Great Flood, the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, the great plagues of Egypt, all fall in line with the purpose of CM and the TA's of limiting human development. This also explains the nature of Eden and Heaven as "Fairy Realms" removed from the normal order of the world. The all-knowing aspect of God can even be linked to the record system of the Moon Cell. Further, as a being closer to the Root, if he possessed knowledge of the Unified Language, he would be considered a Magician as well, making virtually any miracle possible, even the destruction of the Tower of Babel and the severing of Mankind from its use.

This isn't enough to prove anything, really. It's just a load of potentially insulting speculation and a fair amount of blasphemy, but it's a lot of coincidences if it wasn't intentional. Now you know why I wanted to run Asmodeus, the son of Adam and an angel named Namaah, as a half True Ancestor in Regalia.

Counterguardian
March 17th, 2011, 03:09 AM
Ea was created by the practitioner of the First Magic.

squall06
March 17th, 2011, 04:01 AM
Arc is Eve and Roa is Satan

Twelveseal
March 17th, 2011, 04:18 AM
Yes, hence the title "Serpent of Akasha". Arc can also be seen as a Christ-figure, with her resurrections and self-sacrifice. Unlike in the New Testament, however, when tempted by the devil (roa), she did not resist, hence her fall. At the same time Ortenrosse would be the Lucifer/Satan/Samyaza figure, as he is the treacherous servant who seeks to destroy the children of God by sowing discord amongst them and their followers in God's absence. Further, he usurps the Throne and title of King, just as Samyaza, the Steward of Heaven, does. He just hasn't been overthrown yet. It even fits with his title as the "Lord of the White Wing." Similarly, his servant is NRVNQSR, quite literally the Beast of the apocalypse, who's name is the number.

I wonder if that makes Altrouge the Whore of Babylon? She's said to ride the Beast, but perhaps in this case it could mean the Beast of Gaia, Primate Murder?

ItsaRandomUsername
March 18th, 2011, 03:40 AM
Shirou's distant non-Japanese ancestors were from Ireland, and his red hair is a trait of recessive genes manifesting in his "generation".

Mazyrian
March 18th, 2011, 10:02 AM
Bazett a distant cousin of Shirou?

ItsaRandomUsername
March 18th, 2011, 12:12 PM
That or Cu Chulain/Diarmund. Take your pich for whatever is the most awesome.

I'd say Bazett sort-of, because that way he could use Fraggle Rock. But you could worse than be related to Ireland's Child of Light, yessir.

Mike1984
March 18th, 2011, 04:03 PM
Theory:

In the Nasuverse, Jesus was actually a true magician (specifically, the unknown and long-gone first magic user).

Think about it. He fed the 5000 with 4 loaves of bread and 6 fish (or whatever). The only way he could do that is by creating fish and bread from nothing, which is clearly a manifestation of the first magic. Not to mention his other miracles. Further, he then ascended to heaven, which in the Nasuverse has to surely be Akasha, followed by returning to Earth three days later as a spirit. Then, of course, he vanished, which fits the description of his location now being unknown.

ItsaRandomUsername
March 18th, 2011, 05:36 PM
http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/cit_bear_reaction_shot_-_the_horror_-_the_horror.png

It makes SO much sense...

Twelveseal
March 18th, 2011, 06:14 PM
@Mike: Sweet!

Another theory: Shirou is actually descended from a demonic bloodline. He has red hair, a traditional sign of demon blood in Japanese folk-lore, he is a distortion like all True Demons, and he can use a Reality Marble, which, iirc, is the manifestation of a Demon's alien sensibilities over the world in the case of Demons. Further, what he is lacking is not something easily tangible, like heat, but rather, a sufficient sense of self, evidenced by his self-sacrificing tendencies.

TypeWannabe
March 18th, 2011, 06:22 PM
Oh, so having red hair means you HAVE to be half demonic being? Tsk tsk hairist.

Altima of the Gates
March 18th, 2011, 06:53 PM
Theory:
In Mahoyo, Aoko is turned half-demonic by Touko in her vengence gambit, and the vessel with red hair we see in the pictures is her new body.
Obviously, this seems to have backfired on our dear puppetmaker.

Counterguardian
March 18th, 2011, 07:59 PM
Wouldn't it be ironic if that new body was capable of achieving the Fifth and gave Aoko the title of Blue?

No wonder Touko's still mad.

Mazyrian
March 19th, 2011, 04:46 PM
What if...
Bazett isn't killed by Kotomine, and participates regularly in the war with Lancer?

I'd guess she would have a very good chance of winning, normally. Lancer was pretty strong with Kotomine, and now with full stats and a Master who actually supports and who may very well be the strongest of all he would be a force to be reckoned. Berserker would be a pretty though match, though; however, they don't have to be the ones to kill him.
Gilgamesh would be... tricky, though.
(And BTW, I figure she would have better chances against Gil with Avenger, with the same tactic she uses against Saber: Gil goes "LOL mongrel", GoBs Avenger but leaving him alive, like he did with Caster, Avenger goes Verg Avesta, Gil gets seriously pissed off, loses his cool and unleashes Enuma Elish, and gets Fragarch'd).

Theocrass
March 19th, 2011, 04:54 PM
Shirou is the reincarnation of Fate's Jesus.

No, wait. Think about it. It makes PERFECT sense.

Erlkonig
March 19th, 2011, 05:27 PM
What if Shirou summoned Christ? The Church would go crazy, sending the entire Assembly of the 8th Scripture and their mother to retrieve him with or without Shirou.

Theocrass
March 19th, 2011, 05:28 PM
Christ is both fully divine and fully human. I'm not sure if he could become a Servant, considering his paradoxical nature.

Mike1984
March 19th, 2011, 06:02 PM
What if Shirou summoned Christ?

You know, it's funny you should say that. After all, I'm pretty sure Jesus is known for his exceptional healing skills, and I'm pretty sure he could do a damn good exorcism, too.... :p

ItsaRandomUsername
March 19th, 2011, 06:04 PM
You think? :p

Knight of Rider
March 19th, 2011, 06:23 PM
What if...
Bazett isn't killed by Kotomine, and participates regularly in the war with Lancer?
Actually I think Bazette/Lancer would be the strongest Master/Servant team in the war. Lancer is a pretty strong and skilled fighter, who is definatly capable enought to engage a enemy servant long enough until he either gets to use Gae Bolg (almost instant-win) or they have to use their NP to kill him. In this case Bazett could intervene by using Fragarach (definatly instant win)!
The only problems would be, like you said Berserker and Gil...

Mike1984
March 19th, 2011, 07:02 PM
Well, in Berserker's case, they could probably take out Ilya (it depends if he's able to block both Bazett and Lancer at the same time). Gil, though, would pwn them without a doubt, unless they could somehow make him use Ea.

food
March 19th, 2011, 07:13 PM
Don't even need to bring up Berserker and Gilgamesh, the Caster Squad is enough to get Bazett pretty good.

Kuzuki will give Bazett a run for her money.
Piercing Death Thorn won't be effective against Caster because she won't let Lancer get into melee.
Striking Death Flight may be blocked or mitigated via Divine Words.
Fraggle Rock won't work, because Caster can't use her trump card anyways.

Throw Kojiro in the party, Bazett has no chance. Lancer and her need to sit this one out too.

giorno
March 19th, 2011, 07:31 PM
didn't Nasu specifically mention that Bazett would utterly dismantle Kuzuki and would adapt to the snake faster than saber did?

also, i'm pretty sure striking death flight would kill caster...and, lancer is supposed to be a very powerful magus too, with the runes...

food
March 19th, 2011, 07:35 PM
Caster and Kojiro is not going to watch Bazett dismantle Kuzuki (also, Sabre can afford to adapt because her head is Servant-tough. I am sure Nasu did not factor in Caster reinforcement here. Bazett may survive a martial art punch, but can she survive a reinforced punch that stuns a Servant?).

Caster's Argos shield is pretty good too. It will at least ensure Caster will not get one-shot'ed.

Also, Rune Magic vs. Magic from Divine Age? Lancer will be playing fiddle against the master there.

giorno
March 19th, 2011, 07:40 PM
argos certainly didn't help her much against gil...

and i wasn't talking about him using the runes to get into a magical fight with medea, i was just saying that he's supposed to be a very powerful magus himself, and if RIN could keep up with Medea and even corner her(ok, it's all because she wasn't taking her seriuosly, but on the other hand, Lancer probably doesn't even need magecraft to deal with Medea in the first place...)...

i mean, he could just use the runes to increase the power of striking death flight that would guarantee a one-hit kill...

'course, if they don't take out Kojirou first, that's another story...

Counterguardian
March 19th, 2011, 07:44 PM
Lancer is pretty fast.

Just putting it out there.

food
March 19th, 2011, 07:52 PM
Medea teleports, border-line magic.


Caster Squad fended off Berserker. Never underestimate the Caster Squad.

eddyak
March 19th, 2011, 07:52 PM
Gil launched tons of magical swords fired at mach whatever, at least a few of which should have barrier-breaking properties, when Caster wasn't ready. He would've had a much tougher time if she'd actually been able to fight. (By a "much tougher time", I mean he'd waste a fuckload of weapons, and his time, and would eventually Ea her into oblivion).

Caster didn't expect Rin to attack in melee because squishy wizards. Caster will be expecting Lancer to get into melee range. Caster may be a little surprised when Lancer pulls out some quaint runes. Caster will lol, and open Gate of Beamspam. Lancer tosses the spear. Caster overwhelms the spear toss with more magic than Lancer used. Lancer, seeing his trump cards aren't working, retreats, taking Bazett with him if Kuzuki hasn't already dismantled her. Caster tries to track them and fails. Draw.

Send Kojiro into the fray and Bazett and Lancer's lives hang by a thread.

Knight of Rider
March 19th, 2011, 07:58 PM
I dunno, but if Archer almost got her with Caladobolg arrow, than I think that it's definatly possible for Lancer to get her with Striking Death Flight...

And I can also see Bazett as a match for Kuzuki, even reinforced.

Of cource they would have to get rid of Kojiro first, but that is actually most of the time a requirement to even get to Caster.

giorno
March 19th, 2011, 08:00 PM
caster is mentioned time and time again to be the weakest servant

lancer is a strong servant

yeah, 2vs2, team caster doesn't stand a chance

food
March 19th, 2011, 08:04 PM
Nah, the Servant tier thing is more for generalization.

An Archer should never be able to wreck havoc and face-rolling top-tier Servants. It happened.
Berserker is supposed to be a sympathy class for weakling Servants, and shouldn't face-roll top-tier Knight Classes. It happened.

Too many factors are at play, thou shalt not generalize. Plus, Medea is as god-tier as Caster can get. She just get shafted due to plot necessity, a la Gilgamesh.

eddyak
March 19th, 2011, 08:05 PM
I dunno, but if Archer almost got her with Caladobolg arrow, than I think that it's definatly possible for Lancer to get her with Striking Death Flight...
Caladbolg II twists space itself. Death Flight relies more on brute force, and can be opposed with an equal or superior amount of mana.

Besides, Archer distracted Caster with K&B so she wouldn't have enough time to oppose Caladbolg properly or escape.

giorno
March 19th, 2011, 08:09 PM
archer didn't distract her, he told her about K&B because otherwise she would have been killed. By archer who was holding back...

i mean, seriously, she couldn't overwhelm archer who was even holding back, while she was dead serious about killing him, what makes you think she even stands a chance against lancer?

also, when was it stated that caladbolg's space twisting effect is an actual power of the NP?

food
March 19th, 2011, 08:14 PM
Archer had everything going for him for that fight.

He knew who Medea is. He knew everything she can pull, because it was all in the books.

Medea had no idea who this clown in red shirt is, let alone he can shoot megaton Broken Phantasm bombs.

eddyak
March 19th, 2011, 08:28 PM
also, when was it stated that caladbolg's space twisting effect is an actual power of the NP?
Reread the fight.

Egophobia
March 19th, 2011, 08:44 PM
I'm curious as to how tactics would factor in. I think it's been stated Sojiro had a clear terrain advantage when he worked to fend Berserker off, but assuming that Lancer and Bazett would be storming the temple in a similar fashion to Shirou and Saber, then they'd run into him on the stairway before even hitting Kuzuki and Caster. I'm using this scenario in order to have Medea within the bounds of her Territory Creation, and at her strongest. Right off the bat, I don't think Sojiro has a chance against Cu'chulainn, who has a ranged NP, jumps around enough to screw Tsubame straight to hell, rune magic, etc.

In dealing with Kuzuki and Medea, though, didn't Nasu say in the Comtiq interview that Bazett would probably lose her first fight against Kuzuki, but curbstomp him in the second, since she'd have figured out his Snake Style by then? If Kuzuki had attacked the duo before, she'd absolutely wreck him, ending the fight in a hurry. If not, however, there's more at work here. That means that Bazett would be useless against both Kuzuki and Medea in terms of offense; let's assume for a moment that she'd just be fending Kuzuki off and trying not to, well, die. Yes, he's reinforced, but she's got basic rune magic on her side, so let's leave them be for a second.

Yes, Medea is an extremely powerful Caster - Nasu said that she could even wreck 30% Arc based on sheer firepower with her energy rain, or something of the sort. I'm not sure about her ability to deflect the Gae Bolg, so, basically, I'm trying to work my way into a very basic statement. Yes, she won't let Lancer get close enough to melee her to death, but let's assume neither she nor Lancer aren't completely stupid. Lancer could end the fight in all of two seconds by NP-ing Kuzuki, who needs to get close, so Caster needs to have him stay back, freeing Bazett up to help Lancer.

...we also need to note that Lancer would have higher stats with Bazett as his Master, for one, and that Medea's energy rain was too slow to hit even Rider, who Lancer is just as fast as - if not faster.

From there, I'd like to revisit the idea of her Argos shield. Archer had to spend an enormous amount of prana to block a single use of Gae Bolg, and Impaling Barbed Death is noted as being a ridiculously inexpensive NP.


The attack costs very little prana, only in the double digits compared to a single spell from Caster costing hundreds of units of prana, allowing it to be used up to seven times before Lancer must obtain more prana from his master.

So yeah, there are a ton of factors that make this impossible to decide outright, but I see the Caster squad being the ones constantly on the defensive. I mean, even if they all attacked at once, A Lancer spamming Impaling Barbed Death is going to give them hell.

...but if I'm missing details, please point them out. I still need to get around to actually reading through the fight.

eddyak
March 19th, 2011, 08:49 PM
Gae Bolg stabby version doesn't even factor into this. Nobody's gonna get close enough to Lancer to pull that one off. Second, Medea keeps Kuzuki the hell away from the Servant with the long weapon.

Also, it's regular Gae Bolg that's inexpensive. Thrown version is "hurled with all of Lancer's mana", according to Archer vs Lancer.

Archer only survived her beamspam because K&B were capable of deflecting beamspam, and he's got Eye of the Mind. I dunno where you got Rider vs Caster from, but Lancer's a sprinter, Rider's more marathon. He'd dodge her beams for a minute, then tire.

Egophobia
March 19th, 2011, 09:16 PM
Ah, there we go, my apologies, I got the bit with the Rho Aias and the Gae Bolg attacks all mixed up. I suppose then I can keep all of my statements about Kojiro being a nonissue, but I'll have to take another look at Lancer vs. Caster.

Also, the Rider vs. Caster bit was from the anime, which, diluted as it was, technically makes some sort of sense in terms of Servant parameters.

Satehi
March 19th, 2011, 09:18 PM
Medea's Barrier = Berserker's Skin

Gae Bolg + Runes > Berserker's Skin

Therefore

Gae Bolg + Runes > Medea's Barrier?

Egophobia
March 19th, 2011, 09:22 PM
Hm, yeah, I need to look up more about his runes. I mean, there are also the interviews where Nasu mentions that, with his runes, Lancer could defend against Medusa's Mystic Eyes, and also there's the sheer power of the rune of fire, so I'm interested in what happens to her Territory Creation if he just burns the entire damn temple to the ground...although that's a tangent made of so many x-factors that it's irrelevant...xD.

eddyak
March 19th, 2011, 09:32 PM
@Satehi- She doesn't need to use a barrier. Gae Bolg can be nullified by an equal or larger amount of prana. Hitting him and his spear in the air with that big ol' blue beam she uses in HA and FUC should be enough to both cancel out his attack and turn him to radioactive ashes on the breeze.

@Egophobia: All of Lancer's runes together could block a "great Noble Phantasm", according to HF. Not sure if they could block her big spells, but he needs time to put them up, whereas Medea just needs to speak, or point. Either way, as long as Caster's in her territory, gathering mana from the town, Lancer isn't gonna win without giving that fight every single drop of power he has. As long as she doesn't do anything stupid, she'll win.

Dartz
March 19th, 2011, 10:05 PM
Yes, Medea is an extremely powerful Caster - Nasu said that she could even wreck 30% Arc based on sheer firepower with her energy rain, or something of the sort.

Wait what?! Please site the source, because this is the first time I ever heard about this. At any rate, this is not possible. Arcueid is + 1 stronger than her opponent, Caster's magical power is factored in her Unlimited World Back Up. Hell, it was even stated that Bazzett can dodge and counter high level Thaumaturgy, but she will lose against Caster because she'll get tired, Arcueid doesn't have that problem since she has "Unlimited Power". You must be confusing Arcueid with Aoko.

And I am completely sure that Nasu never stated that Caster could surpass Arcueid in firepower. Shot me down if there is a hidden interview that I don't know about.

eddyak
March 19th, 2011, 10:09 PM
Arc's s-called "unlimited" power comes at a pretty slow rate, though. She took a few days to recover to about 10% of her original power, remember. With Caster sucking up the prana of the entirety of Fuyuki, and her territory on top of a leyline, I reckon she could at least make a good match for Arc, if not defeat her entirely.

Also, he was talking about 30% Arc, not Medea+1Arc.

Egophobia
March 19th, 2011, 10:19 PM
@eddyak
Hm, I think I'm going to have to concede to you on this one, based on the info Ataraxia has shown me about just how powerful she is, and also because I've underestimated Medea a fair bit in terms of just how much she can throw at Lancer at once within her own territory. Also, I was considering all parties at maximum power, meaning Lancer and Bazett were throwing all of their runic upgrades into the equation.

...though the mythology enthusiast in me refuses to acknowledge Cu'culainn losing to...Medea, xD.

@dartz
I'll work on it when I have the chance, because I've been looking for that freaking bit of information for ages. I know I read it in a quote at some point, but I'll be damned if I remembered to favorite the thread it was in. I know about the Aoko comment and the stuff archived on fuyuki, but the Arc thing made me do a bit of a double-take, so I'm sure I'm not imagining it. With my luck, it's someone confusing Aoko and Arc while quoting the same interview. At any rate, I'm already looking for it, xD.

Kratosirving
March 19th, 2011, 10:21 PM
Medea's Barrier = Berserker's Skin

Gae Bolg + Runes > Berserker's Skin

Therefore

Gae Bolg + Runes > Medea's Barrier?

Has it actually been confirmed that Gae Bolg + Runes beat's Berserker's skin? I only did that crap in my fic because I found the right combination of runes to BS my way through it. :/

Dartz
March 19th, 2011, 10:23 PM
You don't know how Arcueid's power work at all.
First, that was because she had been previously killed by the most deadly offensive ability in the TM universe. Arcueid explicitly stated that it wouldn't have been such a big deal if she would have been killed, but the way he killed her is what caused her trouble, her lifespan was almost completely erased, of course her power will come back at a slow rate. Also, in Tsukihime, Arc had to use 80% of her power in order to recreate her body, 80% of her power, not 80% of Gaia's power, but her own power. Besides, I am pretty sure her world back up ability wasn't working properly, she is supposed to have unlimited energy, but she didn't, that's because none of her abilities were working properly, her Golden Eyes and her Marble Phantasm are good examples.


Also, he was talking about 30% Arc, not Medea+1Arc.

See? You have no idea how her power work? 30% Arc means Arc using 70% of her own power in order to control her impulses. It has absolutely nothing to do with Gaia's back up. Her power will always be adjusted to be stronger than her opponent, since she is the embodiment of the Counter Force of Gaia, see the CF's description


Counter Force

抑止力 - Yokushiryoku

A Counter Force is a whirl of formless power that will appear and adjust their magnitude in accordance to the target to be destroyed.
To allow for absolute victory, it will appear with greater force than the target.

@Egophobia: I really want to see this. But it's not in fuyuki, that's for sure.

eddyak
March 19th, 2011, 10:25 PM
...though the mythology enthusiast in me refuses to acknowledge Cu'culainn losing to...Medea, xD.I know how that feels. Also, I'm pretty sure you got Arc and Aoko mixed up as well.


Has it actually been confirmed that Gae Bolg + Runes beat's Berserker's skin? I only did that crap in my fic because I found the right combination of runes to BS my way through it. :/
Nasu said that with all his runes and magic, Lancer stands a chance of beating Berserker. Most of us have taken that to mean he stands a tiny chance of managing to permanently kill Berserker.


I am pretty sure her World Back up ability wasn't working properly, she is supposed to have unlimited energy, but she didn't, that's because none of her abilities were working properly, her Golden Eyes and her Marble Phantasm are good examples.
Only when Shiki killed the world beneath them did Arc actually stop getting power from Gaia. Her backup might be unlimited, but it regenerates only with time. She said that herself.

Kratosirving
March 19th, 2011, 10:31 PM
Holy crap, than that means my method of pulling that rune combination out of my ass wasn't necessarily complete bullshit after all. Woot for both the creation of the fic and a key moment in it for sharing such an odd coincidence without knowing it.

Dartz
March 19th, 2011, 10:43 PM
Only when Shiki killed the world beneath them did Arc actually stop getting power from Gaia. Her backup might be unlimited, but it regenerates only with time. She said that herself.

True, but Arcueid isn't supposed to get tired in the middle of a fight. Yet she got tired in both the Nrvnqsr and Roa's battle, that wouldn't have happened if Primal One would have been working properly.

Besides, you're using a bad example, when Shiki killed the world Arc wasn't holding back her impulses, so she was using her full power. Gaia is supposed to adjust her power so that she is only slightly above her opponent, this obviously wasn't the case when she was fighting Shiki, just like when she killed all 100 True Ancestors inside her castle. This is probably because Gaia can't put a leash on her once she gets out of control.

eddyak
March 19th, 2011, 10:52 PM
I reckon it's the other way around- Gaia gives her the opponent's power +1, but that's only at the beginning, when it goes "kay, castle's materialised, go out into the world, your target is here someplace, here's x+1 power." Then it just refills her as she uses up the power. Because your way, Gaia would be adjusting her vampiric impulses along with the power it gave her.

But I suppose we can't really argue over this, we don't have any specifics. Down to personal opinion til Nasu says otherwise.

Dartz
March 19th, 2011, 11:07 PM
Yeah, I know Arcueid's powers are a mess, but it seems to me that you aren't taking Nasu's words into consideration. Review Nasu's Arc vs Gil interview again. Her power is always adjusted according to her opponent, but it only factors single entity ability, this is why Gil is such a bad match up for her, because he has over 1000 weapons. By your logic, Arc wouldn't get back up against Servants at all (and pretty much everything he said in the Arc vs Gil interview would be void), since they aren't supposed to be her targets, yet Nasu stated that Arc vs Servants comes down to Unlimited Back Up vs Noble Phantasms. Here is the World Back Up's description, it's from Extra, but it's only the ability's description


[Original One [EX→ x]]
Ultimate One
A skill which brings her to specs a level above those she faces by receiving the backup of the planet.
....However, because of her Master's misconception, this doesn't seem to be working one bit.

This ability is supposed to be always with her. Also, the one who adjusts her vampiric impulses is Arcueid herself, not Gaia, we already know this.

Hyarion
March 19th, 2011, 11:46 PM
*shrug*

How are we even supposed to know if Nasu wrote that? I wouldn't use it as any sort of proof if I were you.

Dartz
March 20th, 2011, 12:10 AM
It doesn't really matter, it's not like is something new. After all, her ability was already explained by Nasu in that interview from Comptiq 9.

ItsaRandomUsername
March 20th, 2011, 01:04 AM
Theory: Zero-Caster is supposed to represent the fanbase's initial thoughts to Saber...IE "Knight-Girl with sword?, gotta be Joan of Arc".


Another Theory, explaining Archerko's origins:
Archerko is a grown-up Illya post-unreleased Illya route. Easily believable, right? Question is, where'd the bladespamming come from???
Answer: She was implanted with Avalon inside of her - a la Kiritsugu/Shirou, only this time it's Shirou/Illya - meanong that Saber and Shirou become close enough in-game for awareness of the sheath to develop and of its properties. Illya's Origin gets overwritten to "Sword" by the sheath like how it happens with Shirou, only for whatever reason (because she has more prana/circuits,whatever) her Origin gets overwritten quickly, and alongside her innate magical knowledge/ability decides to make use of her newfound affinity for blades to emulate Shirou's/Archer's fighting styles.
Avalon also makes her into a woman who looks more like her age because because. Use your asspull logic of choice.

Twelveseal
March 20th, 2011, 01:11 AM
I can actually think of another way to interpret that quote. It could also be taken to mean what Yak said, that her abilities are adjusted towards her intended target, where her base Ability Scores are equal to her target's plus one. The fight then boils down to "which is better: Higher Ability Scores, or Noble Phantasms?" I imagine that Arc would end up with a set Prana Cap based on her Ability Scores, and would just refill magical energy slowly like in Tsukihime, though still at a much faster rate than a Servant without special methods.

In a Caster vs. Arc fight, I can see Arc at a disadvantage in that case. Caster has low Ability Scores, except for MGI. Arc could benefit from a high magic stat, but not as much as Caster does. Couple that with Caster's range of spells and combat style, and you end up with what amounts to a magic duel between High Speed Divine Words and Marble Phantasm. I'd measure those to be about equal, though that's just my opinion. In practice, the fuel supply is where the fight is determined.

Normally, Arc would have that in the bag, but not so much against entrenched Caster. She's commandeered the primary Leyline for the whole Holy Land and is nocking back magical energy like there's no tomorrow. The question then becomes the following: Is Caster relying entirely on the souls of Fuyuki, or is she using the actual Prana of the Holy Land itself? If not, Arc will outlast her and win, since Caster's NP's are nearly useless for this fight. But if Caster is able to use the ambient Prana (exactly what High Speed Divine Words is described as doing), then Arc has a problem.

Caster is actually stealing Arc's fuel supply every time she takes an action, and, further, she can use the human souls of Fuyuki for more juice. In effect, in these circumstances, Caster may actually have a better Prana supply than Arc. Further, Primordial One only accounts for Ability Scores, not items or knowledge. In her legend, Medea uses spells capable of putting a stop to even very powerful Transcendence Kind. In other words, the fight isn't as one-sided as it initially looks. If the factors operate as I described, then Medea actually could curbstomp a 30% Arc.

At which point she'd reboot to Archetype-Earth, and that would be the end of Caster.

agentzero
March 20th, 2011, 01:57 AM
This is my understanding of Arc's power. I hope it's not too confusing...


Single entity abilities of Arc and Servants are roughly on the same level
Nasu said this, so we should assume without Gaia's backup, Arc is about as strong as a Servant, which is 1/4th of 30% Arc (7.5%).

So basically,

Arc after Shiki kills her = ~3% (IIRC it was stated to be around 10% of her "normal" 30%)
Arc without any backup = 7.5%
Arc with backup and holding back her blood thirst = 30%
Arc with backup and no blood thirst = 100%

In addition to contributing the 92.5% Arc needs to reach her body's maximum potential, Gaia also constantly refills her. However, Gaia places restrictions on how much of this power Arc can use at any one time, depending on her enemy. Arc also ties up 70% of this to suppress her blood thirst, so even if Gaia allows her to use more than 30%, Arc effectively can't.

It should be noted that even though Gaia restricts her usage, the power is still there, contained in Arc's body. If this weren't the case, then she would never be able to suppress her blood thirst.

That much is pretty simple, but it gets more complicated when considering the power Roa stole from her. If we assume that 100% is Arc's original maximum, and the power Roa stole is subtracted from that, the math falls apart. So instead, let's assume the 100% Arc we normally refer to is actually her maximum power after subtracting what Roa stole, so in reality it's not her "true 100%", but just her "effective 100%". So, after she gets her power back from Roa, she will still be using the same amount of power to suppress her blood thirst, but the percentage will have changed, increasing the maximum amount of power she can use freely.

However, determining the actual numbers is impossible since we don't know how much power Roa stole. If we knew exactly how much power the MEoDP took, then we could get a minimum on the stolen power. I can't remember if the VN ever said how much this was, but IIRC the manga put it at 50%. So, let's calculate this assuming that's correct.

Arc's maximum capacity = X
Roa Steals Y from that.
Arc's max capacity now = 100
She uses 70 to supress her blood thrist, leaving her at an effective 30
she loses 50 from MEoDP, and cannot recover that.
She is now at 50
We know that she was at an effective 3 for most of Tsukihime, so she uses 47 to suppress her blood thirst
She needs 70, but is short by 23
3 of that can come from what she is using, so she needs at least 20 more
So, we know that the power stolen by Roa puts her at least at 70, so it needs to be >= 20.

In the end, Arc's power looks something like this:

3% = Arc after she was killed by Shiki, with backup and suppressing her blood thirst
7.5% = Base Arc without backup or blood thirst
30% = Arc with backup and suppressing her blood thirst
50% = Arc after she was killed by Shiki, with backup and not suppressing her blood thirst
100% = Arc with backup and no blood thirst.
120+% = Arc with backup and no blood thirst, after regaining the power stolen by Roa

Her true 100% is really after she gets the stolen power back, but it's much easier to list it out like this, and would be hard to convert the other percentages since we still don't have a solid number of the stolen power, just a minimum.

Another thing to consider, unless the power Roa stole is actually >= 50%, she won't immediately be returned to the "30% Arc" we know, and will have to overcome the MEoDP so that Gaia can refill that portion of her power. I believe she will eventually do this, since she seems to be back at 30% in Melty Blood. On the other hand, if she does over come the MEoDP, her effective cap from the blood thirst should change from 30% to at least 50%.

Of course, all of this hinges on the MEoDP taking 50% being accurate. If they actually took considerably less, her minimum original power would decrease as would the minimum amount Roa stole from her, while if they took more, both those things would increase.

About how her restrictions work, I would think it would take the stats of the enemy, or combined stats of the enemies she's facing, and then add that on top of her base 7.5%, and that becomes her "cap". That's just speculation though.

Twelveseal
March 20th, 2011, 02:07 AM
Arc power levels. Warning, may cause migraines in some users. Take only as prescribed.

Counterguardian
March 20th, 2011, 02:10 AM
Side effects may include piercing pains in head, powerlevel discussions, Dartz, off-hand remarks about Sakura, Mike, death, increased risk of cyborg koala attack, the Land of Steel, and Aristotles attacks.

Twelveseal
March 20th, 2011, 02:18 AM
If syptoms persist, pleas consult your personal Magus. In rare cases, these syptoms may be a sign of a rare birth defect known as Crimson Moon syndrome.

Counterguardian
March 20th, 2011, 02:22 AM
Or the more deadly (and lesser known) KATTO KATTO KATTO disorder.



Back on topic. What if Araya opened a bar instead of an apartment complex?

Twelveseal
March 20th, 2011, 02:30 AM
He'd pass off all the deaths as alcohol poisoning, but I don't think the alcohol damaged brains would be very effective for experimentation, so Alba probably wouldn't be as interested.

Theocrass
March 20th, 2011, 02:31 AM
What if Taiga was an accomplished magus? O.o

Twelveseal
March 20th, 2011, 02:34 AM
If Taiga is an accomplished Magus...

Run.

Mcjon01
March 20th, 2011, 02:58 AM
An accomplished magus doesn't really want too many people aware of the fact that they're an accomplished magus. Not a single person thinks Taiga is a magus. Logically, then, she must be the most accomplished magus in the world, since she's so damn good at keeping that fact from getting out.

Counterguardian
March 20th, 2011, 03:00 AM
Taiga wasn't actually affected by Rider's Bloodfort, she was just pretending so she could stay under the radar.

Dartz
March 20th, 2011, 10:52 AM
In a Caster vs. Arc fight, I can see Arc at a disadvantage in that case. Caster has low Ability Scores, except for MGI. Arc could benefit from a high magic stat, but not as much as Caster does.

No, you don't understand. Arcueid gets an ammount of power based on her enemy's "fighting power". For example, if according to Gaia, Caster's powerlevel is 200, then Arc would get an ammount of power in accordance to that, but the power given to her by the World will be ditributed among all her stats (not just MGI). Otherwise if she were fighting a Servant with EX Rank Speed and E-in all other stats, then she will get a boost in speed and nothing more. No, her power doesn't work that way.


Couple that with Caster's range of spells and combat style, and you end up with what amounts to a magic duel between High Speed Divine Words and Marble Phantasm. I'd measure those to be about equal, though that's just my opinion.

Pretty sure if it comes to a duel between Caster's magic and Marble Phantasm, then Caster has no chance. You need to understand that the power of MP depends on the scale of the Elemental, the larger the scale of the Elemental, the more powerful MP is. And Arc was explicitly stated to be an entity on the same scale as a Type; I am not saying she is as powerful, but she is of the same scale, and in terms of scale Types >>>>>> Servants.


At which point she'd reboot to Archetype-Earth, and that would be the end of Caster

No, first, as far as we know, Caster has no way to kill Arcueid in a way that a reboot would be needed. Second, her power will still be adjusted, see here


"Arcueid, a True Ancestor, does not (cannot) do pointless things, so she adjusts her fighting power according to her opponent, but Warc uses her power mercilessly even on mere humans."

Only Devil Arcueid is the one that can be as strong as her opponent + 10, even against a normal human. Also, Nasu stated in his interview that normal!Arc (as in, non Fallen Arc) in anti-Servant mode will get the power of 2 Servants single-entity stats. Though since AE is Arc at 100%, she can use the full power of her MP, which even allows her to create Fairy villages, but her power (excluding MP) is still going to be adjusted.

@agentzero: That's a nice theory, and I will consider it, but I think it is a bit unnecessarily complicated.

You see, it was stated in Tsukihime, by Arcueid herself, that she had to use 80% (of her 100%, excluding the power stolen by Roa of course) of her power in order to recreate her body, not 50%. 100 - 80 = 20 - 70% of 20 = 6%, that was her current power in Tsukihime. It should be noted that Arcueid uses her own power in order to control her impulses, she doesn't use Gaia's power, this affects her MP too, since some of her thoughts are also used in order to control her impulses. She uses 70% of her own power in order to control her impulses, it is completely unrelated to Gaia's back up, Gaia's back up is just added onto her current power.

Also, it was never stated that she has a max output. Anti-Servant Arcueid = 4 Servants in power/2 Servants in stats. She is very very different from Counter Guardians, since, although powerful, they are still humans, while Arcueid and the True Ancestors were created for the sole reason to be Gaia's guardians. I don't think she has a fixed max output, since her world back up is explicitly stated to be "unlimited", maybe 50% of the Earth's power or so, who knows?

eddyak
March 20th, 2011, 11:05 AM
I don't think she has a fixed max output, since her world back up is explicitly stated to be "unlimited", maybe 50% of the Earth's power or so, who knows?
Nah, it's gotta be far less than that. Imagine a wine barrel (Gaia) with a tap (Arc)- you can't have a tap that's half as big as the wine barrel. She has to have a max output per second, just as Rin is limited to 1,000, and Shirou is limited to about 270. Since Medea's output is theoretically unlimited (she doesn't use her Circuits, remember), Medea should be able to overwhelm Arc in sheer force.

But that's just brute force, that's not accounting for any tricks or different applications of power either of them could pull, like Arc manipulating the air so that Medea can no longer fly, or summoning her castle, or Medea blasting the floor out from under Arc, or catching her in a magical trap, or increasing gravity tenfold, so that she can't run around.

Dartz
March 20th, 2011, 11:33 AM
Arcueid is the embodiment of the Planet's Consciousness, this was explicitly stated. In a way, she is the Planet. I mean, Gaia cannot move, touch or fight by herself, which is why Arcueid is the one that moves, touch, or fight. She is Earth's "sense of touch".

I don't think Medea has infinite output, otherwise she'll be able to beat any Servant. Her output should still be limited by her magical power (MGI).

TypeWannabe
March 20th, 2011, 11:49 AM
First order of business: Gaia uses Arc to masturbate. Billions of pent upsexual frustration for those neigboring stars and planets, man.

eddyak
March 20th, 2011, 12:09 PM
Arcueid is the embodiment of the Planet's Consciousness, this was explicitly stated. In a way, she is the Planet. I mean, Gaia cannot move, touch or fight by herself, which is why Arcueid is the one that moves, touch, or fight. She is Earth's "sense of touch".

I don't think Medea has infinite output, otherwise she'll be able to beat any Servant. Her output should still be limited by her magical power (MGI).
Theoretically infinite output, not in practice. Divine Words don't require Circuits, so as long as she has mana, she can still cast, regardless of the power and whether the spells would screw with her circuits. The leyline and the town supply her with insane amounts of mana, plus her own reserves, meaning she can cast at max power for as long as she wants.

Also, remember- Arc isn't the only creature the planet maintains. She might be the most powerful of them, but she's nowhere near the only one. She's more like the world's familiar than its body. It needs antibodies like Arc to get rid of the bacteria like DAs. Other than that, she's not really necessary.

Dartz
March 20th, 2011, 12:55 PM
Are you saying that Arcueid's purpose is just to kill DA? That's wrong, I thought you already knew. Please see,


Counter Force
抑止力 - Yokushiryoku

Destruction coming by nature/external threats are resolved not by the Counter Force of humanity but by the Counter Force of the world.

Other elements of the Counter Forces:
Guardians - The Guardians of Alaya, aka, Counter Guardians. Heroes with little reverence or no divinity. Reacts primarily to "correct" disturbances caused by humans.
Beast of Alaya - ? Probably another term for the above.
True Ancestors - A Counter Force of the planet with a form.
Beast of Gaia - Primate Murder, a big dog that has the ultimate priviledge of killings primates. Takes some 7 Guardians to control.

Arcueid and the TA's purpose is to deal with alien threats and threats caused by nature; this includes, but is not limited to DA. While PM's purpose is just to kill humans. Not to mention that the TA are also Earth's sense of touch (this is stated everywhere) and their objective is also to return the world to its true form as a planet. TA do a lot more things than killing DA.

So, True Ancestors = embodiment of the Counter Force of Gaia. Only the TA are stated to be the "beings who embody the planet's consciousness". I don't think it has been stated that other spirits besides the TA also follow Gaia's will. Or maybe they aren't as powerful as the TA. Otherwise there wouldn't have been a need to create a Counter Force like the TA.

KT also explicitly states that the TA were created as a sensor of nature, this could suggest that Gaia cannot touch or feel something through beings other than them. I mean, according to Merem, the TA also possess some of Gaia's personality, since nature has no emotions, they also have a will to stay beautiful (just like nature). So yes, I would say that Arc and the TA are more like an aspect of Gaia (or Gaia's arms and legs) rather than Gaia's familiars. And without them, Gaia is pretty much powerless.

Theocrass
March 20th, 2011, 01:17 PM
Taiga wasn't actually affected by Rider's Bloodfort, she was just pretending so she could stay under the radar.

OMG! Has my What If actually mutated into a WMG? AWESOME!

eddyak
March 20th, 2011, 01:18 PM
Wasn't there a whole section in Fuyuki about beings that are part of the planet? Elementals, and fairies, and crap like that. They're all as much extensions of Gaia as Arc is, right?

Dartz
March 20th, 2011, 01:34 PM
Well, fuyuki says that nature spirits are manifestations of the will of the planet, but they do not necessarily have a human form, and just like all other spirits, are not normally perceivable. Also, the True Ancestors are spirits who have a real, organic body, this is probably why they are stated to be Gaia's sense of touch, because they have a physical body.

But just because they are spirits does not mean they directly follow Gaia's will, just like not all humans follow Alaya's will (at least not consciously). Otherwise every Fairy and lower-class Elemental would have unlimited power and the "your power + 1" ability that Arc and the other TA have. Though all of them have Marble Phantasms and in some cases, Reality Marbles.

food
March 20th, 2011, 06:07 PM
Faeries are normally invisible to humans, and they usually don't give a shit about humans. Faeries and elements are also extensions of Gaia, but they are not intended to interact with humans.

The reason TA's are created is because Gaia is afraid of humans and needs a tool to regulate them. Thus Gaia made TA's in the shape of humans and visible to humans (unlike other faeries).

agentzero
March 20th, 2011, 07:11 PM
I can't think of 100% Arc as her own power without backup, since Nasu said her single entity abilities are about the same as a Servant. And in Extra, without her backup she's roughly Servant level, which corroborates that. Logically, the rest comes from the planet, right?

Besides, if Arc's body has no max potential, then how can we even say she has a 100%? Or a 30%? That doesn't make sense. Not to mention that she'd be more powerful than all the types if such a thing were true. The evidence we have doesn't make sense if we assume that 100% is without the planet's backup.

I will have to rework my math for the 80% though.

And was it said that she used 70% of the 20% left to suppress her thirst, leaving her at ~6.6%? That should put her not too far under a Servant, which is inconsistent with how much trouble she had taking on Roa.

food
March 20th, 2011, 07:17 PM
What's the 80% for?

Dartz
March 20th, 2011, 07:34 PM
I can't think of 100% Arc as her own power without backup, since Nasu said her single entity abilities are about the same as a Servant. And in Extra, without her backup she's roughly Servant level, which corroborates that. Logically, the rest comes from the planet, right?

But when Nasu said that single entity abilities of Arcueid and Servant were roughly on the same level, I thought he was referring to her 30% state? It wouldn't make much sense for Gaia to help her control her bloodlust. So this means she used Gaia's power in order to revive? That doesn't make much sense, she wouldn't have been weakened to such an extent if that were the case.


Besides, if Arc's body has no max potential, then how can we even say she has a 100%? Or a 30%?

Because 100% or 30% is her own power? Not related to Gaia's back up?


That doesn't make sense. Not to mention that she'd be more powerful than all the types if such a thing were true. The evidence we have doesn't make sense if we assume that 100% is without the planet's backup.

She wouldn't be more powerful than the Types, sice I am pretty sure the Types get back up from their planets in the same way as her. Add to that the fact that Types can also terraform their surroundings.

And I think it's too big of a stretch to say that Gaia's back up is what helps her control her bloodlust.


And was it said that she used 70% of the 20% left to suppress her thirst, leaving her at ~6.6%? That should put her not too far under a Servant, which is inconsistent with how much trouble she had taking on Roa.

Not really, but I thought that was the case. The problem is that she got tired when fighting against Nrvnqsr and Roa, I am pretty sure she was stronger than them, but none of her abilities were working properly, even her world back up, otherwise she wouldn't have been so tired.


"That's right. Until I was fully recovered like this, I was really planning to kill you, you know. That's the first time anyone's embarrassed me like that. And, it took about eighty percent of my power to fully recover.


...... So let's say she has ten units of power.
And say she uses seven of them to resist the urge to drink blood inside her.
But if---for some reason she loses five out of the ten units, then even if she uses all her remaining power, she can only use five units of power to resist.

giorno
March 20th, 2011, 08:46 PM
Theoretically infinite output, not in practice. Divine Words don't require Circuits, so as long as she has mana, she can still cast, regardless of the power and whether the spells would screw with her circuits. The leyline and the town supply her with insane amounts of mana, plus her own reserves, meaning she can cast at max power for as long as she wants.
and this doesn't change the fact that she's still limited by her own spells's power, and that the best she can do is nowhere near alt nagel...

Twelveseal
March 20th, 2011, 09:48 PM
^ I don't think we can make that assumption, for two reasons. First, as far as I know Alt Nagel has never been given any form or Rank, value, or measurement. It could be very strong, or perhaps not. There is very little good information to go on for that, so you are basically argueing that Caster cannot match a given, undefined rank.
Second, several of Caster's spells are specifically described as being on the level of True Magic, which has been proven to be able to kill a genuine Type, and Arc's Original at that. In terms of raw power, I believe Caster has the ability to destroy Arc's body completely, just like Zelretch nuked Type-Moon. Likewise, this is also comparing the ability of Arc to wield the power of nature against something that is strong enough to defy the fundamental laws of nature. Assuming off-hand that Arc is too powerful to be defeated is exactly the kind of thing that caused her to be corrupted, to lose to Shiki, twice at that, and to fail to kill Roa. Not to mention nearly get killed by NRVNQSR. Assuming that she will win any given fight just because of her unique abilities is a mistake.

As for how combat ability and Primordial One interact... If Primordial One gave her a boost based off of the total combat ability of a being, then it would calculate in the value of Noble Phantasms as well, since those are part of a being's Combat Ability. In other words, Gil would not be a poor match for Arc, simply because his entire Combat Ability is accounted for in her boost. The single being stats you provide are for Arc against Gil, who has higher than normal Abilities. We have no idea how her scores would be ranked against Caster. I very much doubt she would gain the same level of boost against Medea. I am not at all certain that spell lists are considered in Arc's Primordial One Ability. I believe they fall into the same category as Noble Phantasms, since they are something that the Character possesses, but are not inherently part of the Character. As evidence, I point to Hollow Ataraxia, and the fact that Medea could not use her healing magecraft, despite knowing it, just the same as Heroic Spirits often possesses more Noble Phantasms when summoned in their homeland.

In summary, Arc is not guaranteed to win a fight against Medea. In fact, she may be at a disadvantage for much the same reason as she is against Gil.

agentzero
March 20th, 2011, 09:48 PM
What's the 80% for?

The 80% used to recover from MEoDP, which I had at 50% before.


But when Nasu said that single entity abilities of Arcueid and Servant were roughly on the same level, I thought he was referring to her 30% state?

Nasu says 30% = 4 servants, and that Arc's single entity ability = 1 Servant.

Does someone have a transcript or save file for the scene when Shiki killed the world around him to stop Arc? If I am remembering that scene right, it should prove my point. Since this is a rare case where decisive evidence might exist, I'll hold off on the rest of my arguments until I can verify that.

squall06
March 21st, 2011, 01:14 AM
...... Before, someone told me that True Ancestors are a perfect life just by being in this natural world.
They are an extension of nature, so they can draw as much power from the source called Earth.
That's why they won't die. They have no limits.

"Oh----"
So that means...
They are only perfect in this natural world.

Music: stop
http://lparchive.org/Tsukihime/Update%2080/s310-24.jpg
http://lparchive.org/Tsukihime/Update%2080/s310-25.jpg

"Hah----"
I reach the middle of the school ground.
Arcueid comes straight at me.

Before that,
I take my knife and stab the large "point" at my feet, the "death" of the very world around me.

A distortion.

With this, it's over.
Everything around here... I "killed" the nature that Arcueid draws all of her power from.

"----You've thought well, Shiki!"
Arcueid comes towards me.
Her body is filled with death now.
"Alright------!"

I can do it.
I can kill Arcueid like this----But before I confirm my victory.
http://lparchive.org/Tsukihime/Update%2080/s310-27.jpg
Music: play track 9

"--------Ah."
I feel faint.
Everything starts to fade away quickly.
Her arm has thrust through my chest, impaling me.

That...
That is a fatal wound for a normal human being.

"Ha------"
But, I won't die just yet.
With the way I am now, I'll still be able to live for a bit longer.
...... From my ankles, the pitch-black shadow of death starts to creep upwards.

"Ah.................. ah."
I don't care.
I forcefully swallow the blood pouring from my mouth, and I slice the "line" on her chest with one hand.

"Gh.........!"
Arcueid's, voice.
I can, barely hear it.
My head, my head is fading.
Is it the pain from Arcueid piercing my chest? Or is my brain about to burn out from being strained to the limit?

...... Well, whichever it is, it doesn't change the fact that my death is coming.

agentzero
March 21st, 2011, 02:40 AM
Thanks. Though it turns out I didn't remembered correctly, so I can't use this to support my earlier claims.

I had thought that there was a noticeable drop in Arc's speed after Shiki killed the world, and before she killed him. This would have created a big contradiction in Dartz's theory, but it seems I was remembering wrong.

This can actually be interpreted in a way supporting Dartz's theory, because no drop in speed was noted, it seems that eliminating her backup didn't drop her stats. This could be taken to mean that the stats she was using at that time were her own.

It can also be taken in a neutral way. Just because her backup stopped working, that won't immediately effect the amount of power in her body, so a stat drop won't occur right away.

Both of those are valid, but neither can really be used to support my theory.

I still say that the strongest piece of evidence supporting my theory is that Nasu himself said this:


As an absolute order taken from her backup, the planet, she is allowed only an output a little stronger than her opponent. And. Single entity abilities of Arc and Servants are roughly on the same level

To me it seems like Nasu is clearly telling us "without the backup she's roughly Servant level".

Also, if you look at the language used to describe the True Ancestors and Arc, it's always "they are so powerful because they can draw power from the earth". It's always the reason behind their power, and suddenly turning that on it's head and saying their own power is immense and the power drawn from the earth is just icing on the cake doesn't make any sense to me.

In fact, the whole idea of separating "Arc's power" and "the planet's power" doesn't even occur in the text. As long as Arc can make use of that power, it's hers. The distinction only matters when she is in the extremely rare situation where her backup is cut off.

Dartz
March 21st, 2011, 11:25 AM
^ I don't think we can make that assumption, for two reasons. First, as far as I know Alt Nagel has never been given any form or Rank, value, or measurement. It could be very strong, or perhaps not. There is very little good information to go on for that, so you are basically argueing that Caster cannot match a given, undefined rank.

Alt Nagel is a pillar of wind that stretches as far as the heavens. So, it should be at least as big as an skyscraper. Also, did you forgot the fact that Arcueid = Type Moon in scale? and that the power of MP depends on the scale of the elemental? Arc is at least Divine Spirit-tier.


Second, several of Caster's spells are specifically described as being on the level of True Magic, which has been proven to be able to kill a genuine Type, and Arc's Original at that.

I don't remember Caster's beamspam being on the level of True Magic? Also, are you really comparing Caster's magic with Zelretch's blast that pushed back an 81 billion tons rock? something that not even Ea will ever be able to accomplish? At any rate, it was stated (and proven) in MP that Arc can pull off stuff on the level of True Magic. Also, Arc was explicitly stated to be the strongest character in Nasu's works (Tsukihime, FSN, KnK and DDD), and in DDD there are tons of Servant-level (if not stronger) characters. So she is indeed stronger than Zelretch.

Also, the fact that Zel killed Type Moon means nothing, since Arc and CM have completely different abilities (Arc is an elemental, CM isn't), all we know is that they are beings of the same scale of existance. Just because X can kill Y doesn't mean X will kill Z too.


In terms of raw power, I believe Caster has the ability to destroy Arc's body completely, just like Zelretch nuked Type-Moon.

Lol no, in terms of pure power Arc > Caster so much it's not even funny. Add on to that the fact that Arc gains resistance to attacks previously used, or the fact that she can just dodge most of Caster's attacks. It was stated that among the Servants Caster is the best opponent to fight humans, Arc ain't a human. Also, did you forgot that as long as your opponent is Arc, she is the one who will choose the terrain, right? so Caster can say goodbye to her terrain advantage. When Caster was trying to kill Archer and Shirou by spamming beams of light from the sky, not a single one managed to hit Archer running around with Shirou in his arms, so her chances to hit Arc are slim at none; not to mention that in order to kill her all Arc has to do is imagine the air around Caster being shredded into smithereens, and to do that she doesn't even need to move.


Likewise, this is also comparing the ability of Arc to wield the power of nature against something that is strong enough to defy the fundamental laws of nature.

Most magecraft defy the laws of nature, does that mean Arc will lose against anyone that can defy the laws of nature? No it doesn't.


Assuming off-hand that Arc is too powerful to be defeated is exactly the kind of thing that caused her to be corrupted, to lose to Shiki, twice at that, and to fail to kill Roa. Not to mention nearly get killed by NRVNQSR. Assuming that she will win any given fight just because of her unique abilities is a mistake.

You're being really, really unfair here. First, Roa didn't corrupt anyone, he just brought what was already there (he just made her bloodlust stronger, no more), since Arc was already suffering from the urge to drink blood the first time she and Roa met face to face, and that had absolutely nothing to do wih her powers or abilities, but with the fact that she was too naive and inexperienced.

She was killed by Shiki with a surprise attack, the only reason she didn't fight back was because she doesn't attack humans (she would have realized if Shiki would have been a magus or a DA), so she hesitated. I mean, she had more than enough time to cut Shiki's head off, since Shiki pushed the door open and entered inside her apartment, then while she was off guard with surprise he killed her with his first strike. And she was only killed or defeated (whatever, the first time wasn't even a fight) by Shiki 1 time, just 1 time, unless you're saying that she lost against him in Ciel's route, but no, Arc won that battle.

And by the time she fought against Nrvnqsr and Roa she was really really weak, they won't stand a chance against her in her normal state and without plot armor. Same for most enemies she doesn't have bad affinity with.


As for how combat ability and Primordial One interact... If Primordial One gave her a boost based off of the total combat ability of a being, then it would calculate in the value of Noble Phantasms as well, since those are part of a being's Combat Ability.

No it wouldn't, since Nasu explicitly stated that it only takes into account single-entity-ability.


We have no idea how her scores would be ranked against Caster. I very much doubt she would gain the same level of boost against Medea.

Caster's magical power is accounted into her world back up. Arc gains a boost based on her enemy's fighting power, and that power is distributed among all her stats. And yes, anti-Servant Arc = 4 Servants in power/2 Servants in stats, which is roughly the equivalent of Berserker.


I am not at all certain that spell lists are considered in Arc's Primordial One Ability.

Not spell lists, but Caster's magical power.


In summary, Arc is not guaranteed to win a fight against Medea. In fact, she may be at a disadvantage for much the same reason as she is against Gil.

I say the blades that can pierce invincible dragonhide and slay gods are definitely stronger than anything Caster has. Caster's magic isn't as powerful nor does it have the same versatily as Gil's NP, not to mention the fact that Caster's magical power will definitely be accounted into Arc's back up.

Agentzero: So what you are saying is that Arc and the world are a single entity, and that Arc used 80% of the world's power in order to recreate her body?

Well, I thought, and I still think that my theory is the one with the least amounts of holes. You see, it is stated that the power of Devil Kings is so immense that they can't be killed by the weapons of humans, but it is also explicitly stated that they can be killed permanently, on the other hand it is explicitly stated that as long as True Ancestors exists on a natural world, the only way to kill them is by using a Conceptual Weapon with the power to kill the world. But Devil Kings can indeed be killed? Why? Because they are demons, no longer elementals, hence they aren't part of Gaia, which is why the TA try to kill them. So they don't get power from Gaia, but they are still far more powerful than regular TA.

Food also had a similar theory the other time but I figured it was too flawed. I have been spending a long time trying to find a suitable theory. Then, can you explain to me why did Arc got so much more powerful in Ciel's route? Or when she killed every-single True Ancestor (which were around 100) inside her castle? Since the world is supposed to adjust her power so that she is only slightly stronger than her opponent, right? but Shiki clearly noted at that time that the power that she was using was not like her usual self at all.

eddyak
March 21st, 2011, 11:33 AM
did you forgot the fact that Arcueid = Type Moon in scale?
http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2010/2/6/129099886145036139.jpg

Dartz
March 21st, 2011, 11:36 AM
It means that they are beings on the same rank of existence. I didn't say she was equal in terms of power (something that we don't know) but since the power of MP depends of the scale of the elemental, it can't be denied that en elemental that rivals a Type in scale would have a really powerful MP.

eddyak
March 21st, 2011, 11:39 AM
I'm not talking about the MP- I'm talking about the source of that statement. The church don't wanna admit that a being on the same scale as CM exists, because to humanity, monsters that can lift a truck with one hand and monsters that can lift skyscrapers with one hand are pretty much the same thing- they're both monsters. That's what they meant by "on the same scale". They're both just disgustingly powerful.

Dartz
March 21st, 2011, 11:59 AM
Yes but not all powerful beings are on the same scale as Crimson Moon. For example, you can say that ORT or Zeus are beings on the same scale as CM, but you can't really say the same for Nrvnqsr or Hercules.

At any rate, they are both on a completely different level in comparison to average True Ancestors, which are still rather powerful elementals on their own, even if they are flawed. I was just using that quote to point out that the power of her MP can't be underestimated.

Cruor
March 21st, 2011, 03:05 PM
I'm not talking about the MP- I'm talking about the source of that statement. The church don't wanna admit that a being on the same scale as CM exists, because to humanity, monsters that can lift a truck with one hand and monsters that can lift skyscrapers with one hand are pretty much the same thing- they're both monsters. That's what they meant by "on the same scale". They're both just disgustingly powerful.

Not true in Nasuverse. If it were, they'd be going after Half-Bloods and shit too.

eddyak
March 21st, 2011, 03:07 PM
The Church only goes after bloodsuckers, IIRC.

food
March 21st, 2011, 04:00 PM
Bloodsucker is a broad term for "any creature that seeks sustenance from blood", which ranges from ORT to worms.

The Church only hunts True Ancestors and their derivatives (DAA's and DA's).

Cruor
March 21st, 2011, 04:27 PM
What I meant was eddyak was pretty much saying is that the Church labels all freaks that casually pick up cars are monsters. And The Church hunt monsters. But really, they only hunt Vampires and real deal Demon Possession. Though, I could me misinterpreting as I kinda keep getting confused midway through.

eddyak
March 21st, 2011, 04:30 PM
Nono, I meant that in terms of power, from a human perspective, it doesn't matter whether it can benchpress a lorry (Arc, for example) or lift a skyscraper with its big toe (CM)- they're both monsters.

food
March 21st, 2011, 04:41 PM
The term for the colossal department of these "inquisitors" is what is called the Sacred Church, an organization made up of the demon exterminating Executors and exist only for the sole function of eradicating all heretics and properly controlling those mysteries that go beyond human understanding.

The Church technically supposed to eradicate "everything against God's teaching". In other words, from non-believers, to magi, to vampires, to witches, to everything "not normal".

However, due to limited resources, they have to prioritize. They let magi and other small fries slip and hunt the big ones (i.e. vampires).

Dartz
March 21st, 2011, 05:06 PM
That's just speculation. Saying that CM is stronger than Arc despite the fact that they have completely different abilities is speculation, likely right, but still speculation. Since you can't say something like "Nrvnqsr-Chaos is a being that rivals the Crimson Moon in scale", that would be completely wrong. Just because they are all monsters does not mean they are on the same level.

eddyak
March 21st, 2011, 05:15 PM
Just because they are all monsters does not mean they are on the same level.
That's exactly what I said. From humanity's perspective, though, they are on the same level, because they're both monsters.

The kid hiding under the table doesn't care whether the guy who's just burst into his house is a trained SAS combat specialist with a shotgun, or a skinny 19-year old nerd with a knife, they're both just things it wants to get the hell away from.

Dartz
March 21st, 2011, 05:29 PM
That's exactly what I said. From humanity's perspective, though, they are on the same level, because they're both monsters.

Yes, from your Average Joe's perspective, they are all monsters. From the Church's perspective, whose assassins excell at vampire hunting and have already killed and sealed several DAA? then no.

eddyak
March 21st, 2011, 05:41 PM
Even to the Seventh of the burial agency, they're still monsters. Ciel lasted, what? A second and a half? once Arc got serious.

Dartz
March 21st, 2011, 05:51 PM
Even to the Seventh of the burial agency, they're still monsters. Ciel lasted, what? A second and a half? once Arc got serious.

That's the problem.

food
March 21st, 2011, 05:53 PM
Gilgamesh could have finished HF 5 on January 31st if he was serious.

How about we talk about when the characters were normal and not serious? lol

giorno
March 21st, 2011, 06:57 PM
wasn't it HF4?

TypeWannabe
March 21st, 2011, 06:59 PM
Nah, food's right on the money. HF5's Servants were, in my opinion at least, weaker than the Servants summoned in the 4th. Gil should take even less time dispatching them.

AstralSword
March 21st, 2011, 11:46 PM
Nah... I think a not binded Lancer could do the trick in the 5th Holy Grail War. Also, he was nerfed with Kotomine as a master. Had him stayed with Bazzet, he would be a REALLY tough match.

Altima of the Gates
March 22nd, 2011, 01:14 AM
4th Saber - 5th Saber = Debatable
4th Archer - 5th Archer = Again debatable. But Gil has stronger abilities and tools.
4th Lancer - 5th Lancer = 5th Lancer has the slight edge iirc, if both have their original Masters.
4th Rider - 5th Rider = Both have good chances to kill the other, imo. Alex is awesome, but Medusa is severely underestimated and put into screwy situations.
4th Berserker - 5th Berserker = Both are monsters in combat. Not a pretty fight.
4th Caster - 5th Caster = Medea is a better magus by far, but Gilles has some annoying abilities
4th Assassin - 5th Assassin = IMO about equal in fighting effectiveness, but the multiple assassins are more useful for recon. Also...Kojiro against a team of Hassans? I'd love to see such a match.

So strong people on each side, and like many matches in the Nasuverse, are situational. Lots of things can change depending on the circumstances...but I'd say both war's servants are about equal.

Huntring
March 22nd, 2011, 01:24 AM
4th war Saber is stronger than 5th war Saber just because compared to Shirou, Kiritsuga is a lot more better as a magus.

Mcjon01
March 22nd, 2011, 01:31 AM
4th war Saber is stronger than 5th war Saber just because compared to Shirou, Kiritsuga is a lot more better as a magus.

But 5th war Saber is actually three Sabers and three is more than one.

Twelveseal
March 22nd, 2011, 01:34 AM
I'm doing a bit of arithmatic on Arcueid's Prana levels and what not. Seeing just how she does compare to other characters. I am I remembering right when I say that her maximum capacity was 22,000 Units?

ItsaRandomUsername
March 22nd, 2011, 01:49 AM
Kojiro vs. Hassan-squad? FUND THAT

agentzero
March 22nd, 2011, 03:09 AM
Agentzero: So what you are saying is that Arc and the world are a single entity, and that Arc used 80% of the world's power in order to recreate her body?

Well, I thought, and I still think that my theory is the one with the least amounts of holes. You see, it is stated that the power of Devil Kings is so immense that they can't be killed by the weapons of humans, but it is also explicitly stated that they can be killed permanently, on the other hand it is explicitly stated that as long as True Ancestors exists on a natural world, the only way to kill them is by using a Conceptual Weapon with the power to kill the world. But Devil Kings can indeed be killed? Why? Because they are demons, no longer elementals, hence they aren't part of Gaia, which is why the TA try to kill them. So they don't get power from Gaia, but they are still far more powerful than regular TA.

Food also had a similar theory the other time but I figured it was too flawed. I have been spending a long time trying to find a suitable theory. Then, can you explain to me why did Arc got so much more powerful in Ciel's route? Or when she killed every-single True Ancestor (which were around 100) inside her castle? Since the world is supposed to adjust her power so that she is only slightly stronger than her opponent, right? but Shiki clearly noted at that time that the power that she was using was not like her usual self at all.

Well, I'm not saying that Arc used literally 80% of all the world's power to recover, but 80% of what she had at the time.

Think of it like this: Arc is a container, and the world constantly keeps her 100% full. No matter what kind of damage you do, unless you can outweigh the power of the world, you will never be able to kill her. That doesn't mean that Arc can use all the world's power at once though. This is similar to the situation with Dark Sakura.

Then the MEoDP broke her, and she lost 80% of her power to fix herself. Normally the world would fill her back up, but the MEoDP must have hindered this in some way. Arc said that killing her normally wouldn't be such a big deal, but the way in which Shiki did it makes it a big deal. So now, Arc, who had been turning 70% of her 100% on herself to suppress her blood thirst, no longer has enough to do that. Even so, she somehow manages to make it for a while using 70% of her 20% that she's left with, but that can't last. This is why, when she suddenly stops suppressing her thirst, she can use the full 20% she's left with, which is what happened in Ciel's route. Remember, someone like Berserker is roughly 15%, which means that this is more than enough to overwhelm Shiki and Ciel.

As for why she was able to suddenly jump up in power at that time, even though the world is supposed to limit her, there is an explanation for that.

Remember, Nasu said that her single entity ability is Servant level, implying that without any backup she'd still be that powerful. This is corroborated by Extra!Arc, who's backup isn't working at all, and is still Servant level. This is the basis for my speculation that even when the world limits her power, there is a minimum level she can always make use of. Otherwise she would be helpless in a 1 on 1 against a normal human with a gun. I believe this level is about 7.5%, which seems to be the "Servant level" according to Nasu, who said that 30% = 4 Servants. Servant level is more than enough to speed blitz Shiki and outclass Ciel. It may even be higher, depending on how close Ciel is to this level. For instance, taking Ciel's stats into account, Arc may actually be operating at something like 10%, and because Ciel's stats are weighted towards speed, Arc's speed gets the majority of the allotted power. This may explain Arc's speed feats during that route, although personally I think it's just Nasu's infamous inconsistency surfacing again.

About Demon Lords. Is there any actual evidence that they lose the backup? IIRC that is just an explanation as to why they were able to be killed. But since Arc killed normal True Ancestors as well, that doesn't really work. I know the bit about elementals becoming demons, but the whole bit about them being disconnected from the world and therefor no longer getting any backup seems to be pure speculation, with nothing that I've seen actually hinting at that.

As for how she killed all the True Ancestors, that is because she was literally more powerful than them. Even though the world was supplying all of them power as well, their maximum capacities should be much lower than Arc's. Facing 100 of them, their combined stats should be enough to put Arc at her max. And, the fact that she killed them at all proves that the idea that all True Ancestors are completely unkillable is false. Also, if your theory were true, their backup would work in the same way and they would get infinite power to match Arc's infinite power, meaning that Arc wouldn't actually be the strongest True Ancestor, she'd be effectively just as strong as the rest of them.

Another problem with your theory is that you say the planet doesn't limit her own power, meaning she should be able to use the full 30% or even 100% any time she wants, against whoever she wants. But the very fact that Gil is a bad matchup for her completely denies that. Nasu himself said that against Gil, Arc would have about 2 Servants worth of stats (15%), which means that the planet does limit her within the "100%", so the contradiction you pointed out with Ciel's route isn't actually solved by your theory.



4th Rider - 5th Rider = Both have good chances to kill the other, imo. Alex is awesome, but Medusa is severely underestimated and put into screwy situations.


About this, I really can't see Iskander standing much chance against Medusa. Mystic Eyes vs C rank MGI. There's no way his Army has higher than C rank MGI either. And Gordius Wheel can at best force a stalemate against Bellerophon. To top all that off, with a D in AGI there's no way he can outmaneuver her in melee before she unseals her eyes. Iskander's a top class Servant, up there with Saber and Heracles, but this is a terrible matchup for him.


I'm doing a bit of arithmatic on Arcueid's Prana levels and what not. Seeing just how she does compare to other characters. I am I remembering right when I say that her maximum capacity was 22,000 Units?

IIRC, there isn't even any evidence that Arc uses prana at all. Isn't it more likely that she uses gin?

Twelveseal
March 22nd, 2011, 03:16 AM
I seemed to remember someone posting a line from one of the interviews where it stated that Arc used Prana, and that her max output was 22,000. I'd argue more that she's made of gin, rather than using it, since gin is the life-force of planets. Gin only becomes widely used after Gaia dies, since it's the essence of Gaia's soul. I don't think Arc is eating Gaia's soul whenever she takes an action, but I could be wrong.

Also, while I'm at it, anybody know how much power Arc lost when Altrouge took her hair? If I get that, I can come up with some hard numbers as opposed to all these percentiles.

agentzero
March 22nd, 2011, 03:46 AM
Was it even stated that she lost power from that, or is it just fanon?

Mike1984
March 22nd, 2011, 04:58 AM
4th Saber - 5th Saber = Debatable

4th Saber is stronger.


4th Archer - 5th Archer = Again debatable. But Gil has stronger abilities and tools.

Gil is far stronger, even though he might well lose a one-on-one battle.


4th Rider - 5th Rider = Both have good chances to kill the other, imo. Alex is awesome, but Medusa is severely underestimated and put into screwy situations.

Again, even though Rider could potentially defeat him, he's still much more powerful overall. There are certain opponents Rider just can't touch, whereas Alexander can take on pretty much anyone.


4th Berserker - 5th Berserker = Both are monsters in combat. Not a pretty fight.

Heracles is probably stronger, although Lancelot could possibly beat him if he had someone supplying him with NPs.

agentzero
March 22nd, 2011, 06:45 AM
Again, even though Rider could potentially defeat him, he's still much more powerful overall. There are certain opponents Rider just can't touch, whereas Alexander can take on pretty much anyone.

I'd put both the Riders on the same tier actually. The opponents that Medusa just can't touch (Gil, Saber, and Heracles) are actually the same ones Iskander stands pretty much no chance against, plus Medusa herself.

Overall, they both have about the same coverage, with the same 3 biggest weaknesses. Excalibur, Ea, and God Hand.

meevanhelot
March 22nd, 2011, 06:55 AM
The thing is that opponents Medusa would have trouble with/get beaten by could be beaten by Iskander without much trouble, or at least less than Medusa would have.

According to Nasu full powered Rider against Archer is 50/50, with tactical advantage deciding the fight. I really don't see how Archer could beat Iskander unless he managed to Mach 13 headshot him from 4km away.

When did this become the versus thread?


4th Saber is stronger.

In general terms yes, but Kiritsugu's Saber would have gotten killed by Cuchulain.

Ergast
March 22nd, 2011, 07:30 AM
4th Saber is stronger than 5th Saber. Unless you talk about Rin's Saber. That's, in my opinion, the strongest Saber (Alter doesn't count)

And then we have Alter, aka miss "I can spam Excalibur like a boss"

About the Archers, Gil is clearly stronger than EMIYA, but EMIYA would win almost always against Gil, because he can stand against him enough time to pull UBW, and once they are in his RM, Gil is screwed.

About the Riders, in terms of power Iskander is the strongest one, but in terms of battle efficiency they would be tied. It's just that Medusa excells at one-on-one combat, while Iskander main strength is one-against-many combat.

About the Lancers, Cu Chulain is more powerful, he is the most famous celtic hero, but Diarmud is pretty awesome, even quicker and very skillful. In a battle between those two it comes to a matter of seeing if Diarmud can seal one of Cu Chulain's limbs before the hound of Culann decides to end the battle with Gae Bolg.

In a battle of Casters, Medea would win almost inmediatly. She wouldn't toy with someone like Bluebeard, as he is the kind of man she hates. The question here is if Bluebeard would manage to summon Cthullu or not before dying. If he does, then it's a tie and Saber needs to come and clean the shit. If not, Medea wins. In terms of power, Medea is stronger, but Bluebeard has a very powerful toy.

The clash of Berserkers would be a sweet one. In one hand we have the strongest hero, and the most fearsome greek hero, skillful, quick, strong and resilient, but thanks to his maddness without any trace of battle strategy and with most of his toys sealed. OTOH we have the most skillful knight of the round table, with a sword comparable in power with Excalibur (and not sealed) and with all his battle knowledge intact even after his madness, thanks to his Eternal Master skill. If Arondight is able to kill Herc in one go, then Lancelot can (and probably would) win. If not, Herc would end killing him. If it was in another classes (by example, both of them Sabers, or Herc Archer and Lancelot Saber) then it would be a more interesting battle, but one that ultimately Herc would win, as he would have access to at least ninelives (and I would like to see Lancelot hitting Herc if he use the shield version of ninelives xD). When it comes to power, Herc is more powerful in my opinion.

Let's talk about the Assassins. If we talk about the real Assassin, it's the same about the Riders. 4th Assassin is better in a one-agains-many battle, while 5th Assassin is better in one-on-one battle. The problem for 5th is that 4th is many, not one. And the problem for 4th is that with each division he gets weaker and weaker. But I'll say that 4th wins almost always, unless 5th zabaniya would kill 4th in one go even when 4th is legion.

If we talk about Kojiro, if he has higher ground the 4th assassin doesn't have a chance. He is the unknown swordman that was able to stand against motherfucking Heracles, after all.

Keyne
March 22nd, 2011, 07:34 AM
Alter does count. Want it or not, that's still Saber.

Mike1984
March 22nd, 2011, 07:53 AM
The clash of Berserkers would be a sweet one. In one hand we have the strongest hero, and the most fearsome greek hero, skillful, quick, strong and resilient, but thanks to his maddness without any trace of battle strategy and with most of his toys sealed. OTOH we have the most skillful knight of the round table, with a sword comparable in power with Excalibur (and not sealed) and with all his battle knowledge intact even after his madness, thanks to his Eternal Master skill. If Arondight is able to kill Herc in one go, then Lancelot can (and probably would) win. If not, Herc would end killing him. If it was in another classes (by example, both of them Sabers, or Herc Archer and Lancelot Saber) then it would be a more interesting battle, but one that ultimately Herc would win, as he would have access to at least ninelives (and I would like to see Lancelot hitting Herc if he use the shield version of ninelives xD). When it comes to power, Herc is more powerful in my opinion.

Actually, as a Berserker, Lancelot doesn't stand a chance, because there's no way in hell that Arondight has a passive skill that allows him to take twelve of Berserker's lives in one shot. If they were in a different class, then he would have more of a chance (assuming that Arondight has some sort of active ability similar to an Excaliblast, that could be used to kill him multiple times with one shot), but at the same time the power balance becomes even more overwhelmingly in favour of Heracles, because he suffers more from being Berserkerified than Lancelot does (thanks to Knight of Honour). So, either way, Lancelot loses.


Alter does count. Want it or not, that's still Saber.

She's a different Saber, though, really. Her abilities are different (and not just because of her change in master) and her personality is different. Thus, it's not really sensible to consider her when you look at which is the "best" Saber.

eddyak
March 22nd, 2011, 09:40 AM
She's a different Saber, though, really. Her abilities are different (and not just because of her change in master) and her personality is different. Thus, it's not really sensible to consider her when you look at which is the "best" Saber.
She's been enraged, but she's still the same person. You don't call a drunk guy a different person, they're just in a different mindset.


4th Rider - 5th Rider = Both have good chances to kill the other, imo. Alex is awesome, but Medusa is severely underestimated and put into screwy situations.Alex has almost nothing that he could actually kill Medusa with. Ionian Hetaroi is useless, either Bellerophon or her Mystic Eyes easily counter it, and freeze him too. His chariot would be beaten by the A+ Bellerophon, and his regular non-NP sword would probably be destroyed by her monstrous strength.

Heracles destroys Lancelot (who manages to kill him maybe three or four times, at best), as well as pretty much any Servant other than Gil and Saber in the 4th War.

Medea destroys Gilles without much effort. Even if he manages to summon Cthulhu, and sit inside it, a concentrated laser would burn through it and punch holes in him. Rule Breaker would also work on the monster. Even if that doesn't work, she can indefinitely keep him at bay with space-warping, gravity increases and keep disintegrating parts of it thanks to the leyline and Fuyuki.

Kojiro kills a hundred Hassans, but in the end loses in endurance. He doesn't have enough magic to stay fighting that many opponents.

Gil's power is on a whole different level to EMIYA. Whilst EMIYA could theoretically defeat any Servant if he caught them in UBW, Gil could definitely defeat any Servant if he used GoB to buy him time to charge Ea up to its full power.

Cu Chullainn loses to Diarmuid if he has Kotomine as his Master. If Bazett is his Servant, who knows.

Keyne
March 22nd, 2011, 09:43 AM
Cu Chullainn loses to Diarmuid if he has Kotomine as his Master. If Bazett is his Master, who knows.
fix'd :3

agentzero
March 22nd, 2011, 09:45 AM
What's Diarmuid gonna do against Gae Bolg? Run away?

eddyak
March 22nd, 2011, 09:49 AM
What's Diarmuid gonna do against Gae Bolg? Run away?
What's Diarmuid gonna do when he sees Cu chillain's getting ready to use an NP? Interrupt him.

Whut'choo talkin' 'bout, Keyne?

Keyne
March 22nd, 2011, 09:59 AM
I'm talkin' 'bout you makin' Bazett and Kotomine Cu's Servants, mang.

eddyak
March 22nd, 2011, 10:03 AM
http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq292/Eddyak/SmileyD.png

Mike1984
March 22nd, 2011, 10:03 AM
She's been enraged, but she's still the same person. You don't call a drunk guy a different person, they're just in a different mindset.

No, she's not just "enraged". Several of her fundamental stats are altered, and her personality is totally different.

Mcjon01
March 22nd, 2011, 10:44 AM
No, she's not just "enraged". Several of her fundamental stats are altered, and her personality is totally different.

An altered Altria is still Altria. Alter might as well be a different person, granted, but nevertheless the "existence" is the same.

Dartz
March 22nd, 2011, 11:53 AM
I'm doing a bit of arithmatic on Arcueid's Prana levels and what not. Seeing just how she does compare to other characters. I am I remembering right when I say that her maximum capacity was 22,000 Units?

? Nothing was ever said on the subject. We don't know if she even uses prana, it's much more likely that her power is fueled by Grain.

@agentzero: Ok, so what you're saying is basically this: Arcueid's power = the world's power. But the cap is 100%. And without back up she is Servant level, while the cap at 30% (while holding back 70%) is 4 Servants, and against a Servant like Gilgamesh she is only allowed to use 15%.

But then at the time she killed the True Ancestors in her castle and in Ciel's route the world wasn't resctricting her power, I think this is probably because the world can't restrain her once she gets out of control. Warc's profile in the MB's guidebook can reinforce this theory:


"Arcueid, a True Ancestor, does not (cannot) do pointless things, so she adjusts her fighting power according to her opponent, but Warc uses her power mercilessly even on mere humans."

About Devil Kings, no, there is no actual evidence that they lose the back up, but I thought that was the case since they are no longer elementals, but demons, not to mention the fact that they can be killed. And well, if we go by your theory, according to the quote above, they can use the power of the world freely, even though they are no longer Earth's guardians, which is why Gaia cannot control them (and wants them dead). Kinda like how if a person's antibody turns into a virus, naturally, the other antibodies will try and destroy them.

But I don't agree with you on this


As for how she killed all the True Ancestors, that is because she was literally more powerful than them. Even though the world was supplying all of them power as well, their maximum capacities should be much lower than Arc's. Facing 100 of them, their combined stats should be enough to put Arc at her max. And, the fact that she killed them at all proves that the idea that all True Ancestors are completely unkillable is false. Also, if your theory were true, their backup would work in the same way and they would get infinite power to match Arc's infinite power, meaning that Arc wouldn't actually be the strongest True Ancestor, she'd be effectively just as strong as the rest of them.

I don't think Arc would get back up against normal!TA, not to mention that it would make no sense for her to fight against them. And this would contradict with Ciel's statement that TA can't be killed without using a Conceptual Weapon with the power to kill the world. A TA will not die if you just destroy his body. I think the reason why they were killed was because they were all inside Arc's castle (which is her Reality Marble), which should be disconnected from the world in some way. This must also be the reason why Arc/Tatari stated in MB that she has no restrictions inside her castle. Also, Arc is still different from other TA, this is why she can summon the Millenium Castle, the power of her Marble Phantasm is far above the MP of other TA.

Ok then, let's go with this.

EDIT: Oh and agentzero. According to the calculations that you made some posts ago, if we go by the statement (which is the true statement) that Arcueid lost 80% of power after she was killed by Shiki, as opposed to 50%, then this would mean that the power that Roa stole is >=50% as opposed to >=20. So, this means that at the end of Tsukihime, after getting back the power stolen by Roa and recovering from the wounds made by the MEoDP, her effective cap from the bloodthirst would change from 30% to at least 86%. Am I correct?


I seemed to remember someone posting a line from one of the interviews where it stated that Arc used Prana, and that her max output was 22,000. I'd argue more that she's made of gin, rather than using it, since gin is the life-force of planets. Gin only becomes widely used after Gaia dies, since it's the essence of Gaia's soul. I don't think Arc is eating Gaia's soul whenever she takes an action, but I could be wrong.

Also, while I'm at it, anybody know how much power Arc lost when Altrouge took her hair? If I get that, I can come up with some hard numbers as opposed to all these percentiles.

Lol no, Cruor made some calculations based on the power of average Servants and all, but that was not completely accurate, since how powerful someone is has no correlation to how much prana that person can hold. Also, Gin is not Gaia's soul (where was it stated that Gaia has a soul?), but the base component of heavenly bodies.

Also, nowhere it says how much power Altrouge stole. I think she stole some power along with her hair (since her hair is a part of her, and specially the hair of a woman carries large amounts of magical power), but it shouldn't have been as considerable as the amount stolen by Roa. But numbers were never mentioned in both cases.

eddyak
March 22nd, 2011, 12:09 PM
An altered Altria is still Altria. Alter might as well be a different person, granted, but nevertheless the "existence" is the same.
Don't worry about it, he's just pissed because we're indirectly implying Dark Sakura is the same person as regular Sakura.

Ergast
March 22nd, 2011, 12:12 PM
Alter does count. Want it or not, that's still Saber.

I said she doesn't count because I wanted to compare the normal Sabers. Then I proceeded to talk about Alter.


Actually, as a Berserker, Lancelot doesn't stand a chance, because there's no way in hell that Arondight has a passive skill that allows him to take twelve of Berserker's lives in one shot. If they were in a different class, then he would have more of a chance (assuming that Arondight has some sort of active ability similar to an Excaliblast, that could be used to kill him multiple times with one shot), but at the same time the power balance becomes even more overwhelmingly in favour of Heracles, because he suffers more from being Berserkerified than Lancelot does (thanks to Knight of Honour). So, either way, Lancelot loses.

In fact, I was thinking about Arondight being more powerful than Caliburn, and we know that Caliburn, without invoking any names, killed Zerker 6 times in a row. So if Arondight is able to do something like that, Zerker Lancelot would be able to win. If not, Herc kills him.

Keyne
March 22nd, 2011, 12:16 PM
6 times in a row
7 times.

Mike1984
March 22nd, 2011, 12:17 PM
In fact, I was thinking about Arondight being more powerful than Caliburn, and we know that Caliburn, without invoking any names, killed Zerker 6 times in a row. So if Arondight is able to do something like that, Zerker Lancelot would be able to win. If not, Herc kills him.

But, if such an ability exists, why didn't Lancelot use it? After all, if it's passive there's no issue about enabling it....

Keyne
March 22nd, 2011, 12:18 PM
But, if such an ability exists, why didn't Lancelot use it? After all, if it's passive there's no issue about enabling it....

Hercules didn't use Nine Lives, too, although he could. Why? Cause he was a berserker.

Flame
March 22nd, 2011, 12:19 PM
Alex has almost nothing that he could actually kill Medusa with. Ionian Hetaroi is useless, either Bellerophon or her Mystic Eyes easily counter it, and freeze him too. His chariot would be beaten by the A+ Bellerophon, and his regular non-NP sword would probably be destroyed by her monstrous strength.

Gordius Wheel is Anti-Army A++.
Ionian whatever is Anti-Army EX.
Ionian is a RM that summons hordes of heroic spirits on mounted horses. One of them could snipe Medusa with a lance/arrow/NP.

Saber herself states that victory is not certain if her Anti-Fortress A++ clashes with Ionian w/e and Excalibur vs Bellerophon was an overkill. I don't know how you decided that Bellerophon>Ionian.

Your argument is invalid.

Mike1984
March 22nd, 2011, 12:23 PM
Hercules didn't use Nine Lives, too, although he could. Why? Cause he was a berserker.

Erm, you've totally missed the point of our argument....

Ergast was arguing that he could use it despite being a Berserker, and I was arguing that, even though he has an activatable ability that can potentially kill Berserker multiple times, it's highly unlikely that it has a passive ability which allows him to do so.

What you said actually agrees entirely with the point I was making, and in fact what I was asking was "given that you think he can use it as a Berserker, why doesn't he?", so your response is entirely irrelevant.

eddyak
March 22nd, 2011, 12:32 PM
Gordius Wheel is Anti-Army A++.
Ionian whatever is Anti-Army EX.
Ionian is a RM that summons hordes of heroic spirits on mounted horses. One of them could snipe Medusa with a lance/arrow/NP.
Which wouldn't happen since she could either get on Bellerophon with "lol dragon-tier defence", or take off her Gorgon Breaker, so that Alex ends up with an RM full of Terracotta warriors.


Saber herself states that victory is not certain if her Anti-Fortress A++ clashes with Ionian w/e and Excalibur vs Bellerophon was an overkill. I don't know how you decided that Bellerophon>Ionian.
Bellerophon is faster and can fly straight up. She charges, Alex charges, Bellerophon goes up, then comes down on his head instead of taking it on head-on.

Cruor
March 22nd, 2011, 01:03 PM
Bellerophon is faster and can fly straight up. She charges, Alex charges, Bellerophon goes up, then comes down on his head instead of taking it on head-on.
Gordius moved so fast Saber could hardly react. Bellerohon vs Excalibur was a strength contest. Gordius Wheel vs Excalibur was a speed contest.


“AAAALaLaLaLaLaie !!”

Accompanying Rider’s roar, the bulls stamped hard once on the asphalt ground; their cloven hooves rushed forward like raging billows. Waver, though overwhelmed by their majesty, nevertheless made an utmost effort to open his eyes wide, so as not to pass out again like the last time. At the fore was a very strong anti-city Noble Phantasm about to be released; in order to gain the initiative, Rider rushed as if his life depended on it, definitely unwilling to give up an opportunity to defeat Saber.

The King of Conquerors’ direct attack sent a shiver down Saber’s spine. By the rushing of the divine bulls, the hundred-meter distance had instantaneously been decreased to zero. In the blink of an eye, the might of Gordius Wheel manifested before her eyes.

If the hilt of her precious sword had still been in her hand, then she would definitely have been certain of victory; facing the golden radiance that Rider raised, there was only one thing that she could shout out, one true name.

“Ex—“

In the moment that the rushing incarnation of thunder was about to trample upon Saber’s small frame—

“Calibur!”

Flame
March 22nd, 2011, 01:17 PM
Which wouldn't happen since she could either get on Bellerophon with "lol dragon-tier defence",

Dragon-tier defence, cock-tier defence or god-tier defence, none of that crap matters.

Gordius Wheel: Anti-Army: A++
Bellerophon: Anti-Army: A+

A++ > A+
Gordius Wheel > Bellerophon.
If Gordius Wheel and Bellerophon clash, Rider gets incinerated. Plus the Gordius Wheels are powered by "lol, Zeus's offsprings."

Once again,
Ionian >= Excalibur
Excalibur >>>> Bellerophon
Ionian vs Bellerophon = ??



But in this showdown with Rider, Alexander, King of Conquerors, Saber had a deep boundary that she was absolutely unwilling to compromise.

If there could not be a fair showdown between them—not as Servants, tools by which to fight for the Grail, but as Heroic Spirits who possessed great pride—Saber would be forever unable to undo the knot left in her heart by the ‘Grail question-and-answer session’ from several days ago.

Alexander reveled in his tyrannical kingship without restraint; he reveled in the violent way of the Ionian Hetairoi, and took pride in it. If she were not to defeat him with the similar symbol of the King of Knights' ideology, the ‘Sword of Promised Victory’ Excalibur, then Arturia’s way of kingship would be broken and ended.

Rider’s Noble Phantasm had a strength such that even thinking about it would cause one to tremble all over. Even if Saber were to exert the strength of her own Noble Phantasm to the greatest extent, victory was not guaranteed.




or take off her Gorgon Breaker, so that Alex ends up with an RM full of Terracotta warriors.


Every solider within the RM is a great heroic spirit, and each one has different status meaning that not everyone has C rank MGI and additionally, Medusa's eyes do not reach that far.

Plus they all have abilities of their own. She could easily get trampled before she even has time to activate Bellerophon, and even if she manages to activate Bellerophon there no way in fucking hell she'll be able to defeat an entire army of legendary heroic spirits with high jumping horses let alone kill one.




Bellerophon is faster and can fly straight up. She charges, Alex charges, Bellerophon goes up, then comes down on his head instead of taking it on head-on.

Gordius moved so fast Saber could hardly react. Bellerohon vs Excalibur was a strength contest. Gordius Wheel vs Excalibur was a speed contest.

Not to mention,



The glorious road on which the King of Conquerors Alexander was about to rush forth could not be arbitrarily sullied.

Waver understood that—the night before—it had been he, the Master, who had at the last moment caused Rider’s determination to challenge Saber to end in vain. At that time, if Rider had challenged the ‘Sword of Promised Victory’ with a desperate heart, then perhaps he would have been victorious over Saber’s Noble Phantasm by a small distance and trampled the King of Knights beneath the hooves of the divine bulls. The reason why he could not but give up at the decisive moment—had been the Master standing beside him in the driver’s seat. At the last instant, Rider could only jump from the chariot in order to protect the clown beside him. Of course, he could not sacrifice the contractor who had made him appear in this world. At that time, what had decided the victory between Rider and Saber had been whether or not their Master had been at their side.

Waver Velvet had once thought he had what it took to become a victor, and had been complacent about it.

giorno
March 22nd, 2011, 02:28 PM
wasn't there also something about Gordius Wheel being slower on the ground compared to its flying speed? and that clash happened on the ground...

the rank of gordius wheel and bellerophon is the same, A+, so even if they clash with the respective charges, it would most likely be a double-kill, and Iskander also has his EX ranked army...really, Medusa's only chance here are her mystic eyes...

also Medea isn't winning against Bluebeard's Cthulhu anytime soon...at best, she may be able to stall it for a while, if the fight takes place inside her 'sanctuary'(ryuudo temple), otherwise she tries a couple big spells, cthulhu regenerates and then proceeds to eat her alive...

and EMIYA only chance against Gil is that Gil takes him lightly(granted, this is almost a certainty), otherwise, UBW isn't going to help him much

eddyak
March 22nd, 2011, 02:50 PM
Gordius Wheel: Anti-Army: A++
Bellerophon: Anti-Army: A+

A++ > A+
Gordius Wheel > Bellerophon.
If Gordius Wheel and Bellerophon clash, Rider gets incinerated. Plus the Gordius Wheels are powered by "lol, Zeus's offsprings."

Once again,
Ionian >= Excalibur
Excalibur >>>> Bellerophon
Ionian vs Bellerophon = ??
Strength and rank means nothing compared to affinity. Regular human + MEoDP = surprised and dead True fucking Ancestor. Regular guy with ability to create magical sword + insanely powerful Heroic Spirit = dead Heroic Spirit. Flying horse with high mobility, defence, and the ability to melt whatever the hell it goes near, along with an intelligent rider, versus big ol' chariot powered by thunder bulls led by an guy for whom tactics are pretty much "LET'S CALL EVERYONE FOR A BATTLE ROYALE AND SEE WHAT HAPPENS LOL", or "CHARGE AT THE CHICK WITH THE GLOWING SWORD THAT CAN WIPE OUT CTHULHU IN ONE HIT LOL" or "CHARGE AT THE KING OF HEROIC SPIRITS WITH THE ABILITY TO FIRE HUNDREDS OF WEAPONS WITH A SWORD LOL".


Every solider within the RM is a great heroic spirit, and each one has different status meaning that not everyone has C rank MGI and additionally, Medusa's eyes do not reach that far.
Defeating someone the moment they're in your sight > Javelins, swords and arrows. The Heroic Spirits that have high enough magic resistance to avoid being completely turned to stone will be slowed like hell, and mowed down by the flying horse.


Plus they all have abilities of their own. She could easily get trampled before she even has time to activate Bellerophon, and even if she manages to activate Bellerophon there no way in fucking hell she'll be able to defeat an entire army of legendary heroic spirits with high jumping horses let alone kill one.
There is also not a chance in hell Alex's soldiers would be able to take down Medusa on Bellerophon, unless he's got soldiers with the equivalent of Excalibur or someshit.


also Medea isn't winning against Bluebeard's Cthulhu anytime soon...at best, she may be able to stall it for a while, if the fight takes place inside her 'sanctuary'(ryuudo temple), otherwise she tries a couple big spells, cthulhu regenerates and then proceeds to eat her alive...
Medea disintegrates Cthulhu, a section at a time. You can't recreate tentacled monstrosities out of ashes on the breeze.

Altima of the Gates
March 22nd, 2011, 02:50 PM
Dragon-tier defence, cock-tier defence or god-tier defence, none of that crap matters.

Gordius Wheel: Anti-Army: A++
Bellerophon: Anti-Army: A+

A++ > A+
Gordius Wheel > Bellerophon.
If Gordius Wheel and Bellerophon clash, Rider gets incinerated. Plus the Gordius Wheels are powered by "lol, Zeus's offsprings."


Gordius Wheel works as a trample(lol more DnD examples from Nasu having to resist trample with a STR check, which btw, with Monstrous Strength, she might be able to pull off), I'm sure it wouldn't be as effective against an opponent in flight. And you shouldn't shrug off the additional defense that Bellorophon gains. This is just bad compatibility.


Every solider within the RM is a great heroic spirit, and each one has different status meaning that not everyone has C rank MGI and additionally, Medusa's eyes do not reach that far.

Plus they all have abilities of their own. She could easily get trampled before she even has time to activate Bellerophon, and even if she manages to activate Bellerophon there no way in fucking hell she'll be able to defeat an entire army of legendary heroic spirits with high jumping horses let alone kill one.

Not 'great' Heroic Spirit. They are all rank D Eirei. Footsoldiers that most likely have no abilities of their own. I don't know where you got that they did. Plus, you really don't know here range of effect with her Mystic Eyes.

And you're underestimating Medusa here. She fought the whole 5th war except for two instances blind and using her senses, sniping is not good to use against someone with excellent Blind-Fighting abilities like her). The whole army would be petrified slowly or killed methodically. Or use other soldiers as shields. She isn't an idiot.


Gordius moved so fast Saber could hardly react. Bellerohon vs Excalibur was a strength contest. Gordius Wheel vs Excalibur was a speed contest.


But in this showdown with Rider, Alexander, King of Conquerors, Saber had a deep boundary that she was absolutely unwilling to compromise.

If there could not be a fair showdown between them—not as Servants, tools by which to fight for the Grail, but as Heroic Spirits who possessed great pride—Saber would be forever unable to undo the knot left in her heart by the ‘Grail question-and-answer session’ from several days ago.

Alexander reveled in his tyrannical kingship without restraint; he reveled in the violent way of the Ionian Hetairoi, and took pride in it. If she were not to defeat him with the similar symbol of the King of Knights' ideology, the ‘Sword of Promised Victory’ Excalibur, then Arturia’s way of kingship would be broken and ended.

Rider’s Noble Phantasm had a strength such that even thinking about it would cause one to tremble all over. Even if Saber were to exert the strength of her own Noble Phantasm to the greatest extent, victory was not guaranteed.

Concerning your example Cruor, she also had to wait for a chance to get a shot in, and only cleaved Rider in Fate because Medusa tried a head-on assault. So I wouldn't say this made Bellorophon slow in comparison by any means. Plus, like I said, Via Expugnatio's power is in the trample. Bellorophon's is in the charge, they are very different, and a match between two people on mounts would come about differently.

giorno
March 22nd, 2011, 03:10 PM
Medea disintegrates Cthulhu, a section at a time. You can't recreate tentacled monstrosities out of ashes on the breeze.
GoB disintegrated a third of its body. It regenerated in an instant. Caster's magecraft isn't going to do any better

Really, her only chance would be rule breaker, if it could end the summoning...

and anyways, weren't we discussing which war had the strongest servant? because sure, Medusa may have good compatibility with Alex, but there's no way in hell she's as powerful as him and his EX ranked army NP...

the 4th HF had a stronger archer and a stronger rider, a more troublesome caster(Cthulhu would be a much harder much for most servants compared to Medea), a slightly weaker berserker while the other classes were more or less equal...

Cruor
March 22nd, 2011, 03:11 PM
Strength and rank means nothing compared to affinity. Regular human + MEoDP = surprised and dead True fucking Ancestor.
More like pinnacle human killing machine.


Medea disintegrates Cthulhu, a section at a time. You can't recreate tentacled monstrosities out of ashes on the breeze.
Except Cthulhu regenerates insanely fast. Way faster than anything you're thinking. You literally have to- with one hit- completely obliterate its entire body down to atoms.


Despite grinding her teeth in despair, Saber was neither frightened nor daunted, and continued to brandish her sword.

No matter how deep her slashes, the wound would be filled instantly without a trace. This was a fruitless effort ― no, if they could just slow the monster down even by a little this battle would have meaning. However, when the impending outcome is considered, this equates to no more than futile resistance.

If only she could use her left hand...

Although it was an unavoidable regret, Saber could not help but consider it. Even with the exceptionally powerful Noble Phantasms possessed by Rider and Archer, it will not be enough to fell this monster. No matter how large a force they use to trample it, it is meaningless if all its injuries can be regenerated from instantly. To defeat this horror, one must simply deliver a strike that covers it entirely, obliterating it down to the last scrap of flesh ― what is needed is not an Anti-Army, but an Anti-Fortress Noble Phantasm.

What Excalubur had to do:


“Ex – calibur!!!”


Light galloped.

Light roared.

The prana, accelerated by the factor of the released dragon, became a streak of light, a swirling and surging torrent that devoured the sea demon together with the dark night.

A silent scream rose within the river water evaporating in an instant, as every single atom composing the body of the giant sea demon that had been the embodiment of terror were exposed to the scorching impact.

But in the center of the sea demon being completely burnt to cinders, within a fortress of bulky defiled flesh, Caster simply wordlessly watched over this moment of white blinding annihilation which had stolen his heart.

Yeah, and he still didn't die instantly in fact he started talking to himself in joy.

Keyne
March 22nd, 2011, 03:18 PM
And then Caster went: "WHAT THE FUCK YOU AIN'T JOAN? FUCK DAT! SCREW YOU GUYS! I'M GOING HOME!"
[/notsrs]

Ergast
March 22nd, 2011, 03:20 PM
Erm, you've totally missed the point of our argument....

Ergast was arguing that he could use it despite being a Berserker, and I was arguing that, even though he has an activatable ability that can potentially kill Berserker multiple times, it's highly unlikely that it has a passive ability which allows him to do so.

What you said actually agrees entirely with the point I was making, and in fact what I was asking was "given that you think he can use it as a Berserker, why doesn't he?", so your response is entirely irrelevant.

Wut? NO!

I was arguing that, if Arondight has enough power attack to kill Herc enough times, then maybe lancelot would win. Just sheer power, not hidden or passive abilities. And looks like Lancelot can activate abilities anyway, with his Eternal arm master skill (he didn't have a degradation of any of his combat skills caused by mental pollution or madness, IIRC). But I was talking about sheer raw power, so it doesn't matter.

In other words. Let's say that Herc has 900 of defense and 2000 of life points with each life. If, and it's a big if, Lancelot strenght plus Arondight own might reach 24900 points in attack, then he would kill Herc in one go. Or if he has a bit less attack, he would kill Herc enough times to have other ways of killing him after God Hand resucitates him and makes him inmune to Arondight.

Mike1984
March 22nd, 2011, 03:35 PM
Wut? NO!

I was arguing that, if Arondight has enough power attack to kill Herc enough times, then maybe lancelot would win. Just sheer power, not hidden or passive abilities. And looks like Lancelot can activate abilities anyway, with his Eternal arm master skill (he didn't have a degradation of any of his combat skills caused by mental pollution or madness, IIRC). But I was talking about sheer raw power, so it doesn't matter.

In other words. Let's say that Herc has 900 of defense and 2000 of life points with each life. If, and it's a big if, Lancelot strenght plus Arondight own might reach 24900 points in attack, then he would kill Herc in one go. Or if he has a bit less attack, he would kill Herc enough times to have other ways of killing him after God Hand resucitates him and makes him inmune to Arondight.

OK, wait, so you're actually claiming that a normal (non-NP) sword attack could kill Berserker twelve times? That's ridiculous....

I don't think that's possible even if the guy was strong enough to deal that much damage, and there's no way in hell that Lancelot swinging a normal sword (even a very sharp one) is that strong.

Cruor
March 22nd, 2011, 03:43 PM
This makes me want to know.... If Lancelot started using firearms, would Berserker take damage as Lancelot's STR is A? (Like in RPG's) What would happen if he threw the bullets?

eddyak
March 22nd, 2011, 03:47 PM
GoB disintegrated a third of its body. It regenerated in an instant. Caster's magecraft isn't going to do any better
No, GoB is made up of shooting swords. It blasted a third of the thing's body to pieces, which doesn't do much when it can regenerate. Caster pulls off a magic blast and puts more mana into it than Excalibur, Cthulhu vanishes in one hit.


Except Cthulhu regenerates insanely fast. Way faster than anything you're thinking. You literally have to- with one hit- completely obliterate its entire body down to atoms.
Except there's nothing to regenerate from. No matter how powerful these tentacled things are, or how quickly they regenerate, if you completely obliterate a kilogram's worth of its meat, the monster won't be able to regenerate that particular kilogram because there's nothing to regenerate it from.

Crushing its flesh or cutting into it with swords and spears will do nothing, since they're not taking away any of the flesh it can use, the flesh will have come back and been assimilated into the main mass in the next second. If you evaporate pieces, the pieces won't be able to come back.

Cruor
March 22nd, 2011, 03:51 PM
Except there's nothing to regenerate from. No matter how powerful these tentacled things are, or how quickly they regenerate, if you completely obliterate a kilogram's worth of its meat, the monster won't be able to regenerate that particular kilogram because there's nothing to regenerate it from.
Never thought I'd say this but: It's Magic I ain't gotta explain shit.

eddyak
March 22nd, 2011, 03:52 PM
Sure, the demons are magic, but they've still gotta use mundane matter from this world.

Mcjon01
March 22nd, 2011, 03:57 PM
OK, wait, so you're actually claiming that a normal (non-NP) sword attack could kill Berserker twelve times? That's ridiculous....

I don't think that's possible even if the guy was strong enough to deal that much damage, and there's no way in hell that Lancelot swinging a normal sword (even a very sharp one) is that strong.

I'm reasonably sure that is how it works, though. It makes the most sense, when you consider all the wacky RPG rules that we don't know that run the Nasuverse. Convert God Hand into game mechanics and it basically just means that Berserker has 12 health bars that slowly refill over time. Of course a strong enough attack is going to eat through multiple health bars.

Well, it makes more sense than just randomly deciding certain attacks must have an unlisted special effect of being able to kill people multiple times over.

Keyne
March 22nd, 2011, 03:59 PM
I'm reasonably sure that is how it works, though. It makes the most sense, when you consider all the wacky RPG rules that we don't know that run the Nasuverse. Convert God Hand into game mechanics and it basically just means that Berserker has 12 health bars that slowly refill over time. Of course a strong enough attack is going to eat through multiple health bars.
It's like them old arcade side-scrolling fighting games with bosses.

giorno
March 22nd, 2011, 04:34 PM
No, GoB is made up of shooting swords. It blasted a third of the thing's body to pieces, which doesn't do much when it can regenerate.

The King of Heroes gave Tokiomi a glance of displeasure. Then he swung his right hand, which was propping up his chin on the edge of the ship. Four swords and spears appeared in the air next to him. The shining primeval Noble Phantasms unleashed a thunderous roar, and flew to impale the filthy mountain of meat that wriggled down below.

Saber and Rider reacted immediately and jumped away to avoid being caught in the attack, but Caster’s sea monster was in no ways so agile. The four Noble Phantasms hit it head on. Their power, enough to split mountains, blew one-third of the giant beast’s body into nothingness.



Caster pulls off a magic blast and puts more mana into it than Excalibur, Cthulhu vanishes in one hit.
this statement is ridiculous. Medea being able to cast a spell as powerful as excaliblast, when the strongest offensive spells we've seen her use aren't even in the same league as caladbolg, or heck, even a single one of the NPs Gil shot cthulhu with...


Except there's nothing to regenerate from.
yes, there is. Vaporization doesn't mean it disappears, it just means the body goes from a solid state to a gas state. Incindentally, Gil's NPs should have vaporized a big chunk of what they hit due to their sheer power and kinetic energy...


No matter how powerful these tentacled things are, or how quickly they regenerate, if you completely obliterate a kilogram's worth of its meat, the monster won't be able to regenerate that particular kilogram because there's nothing to regenerate it from.
yes, there is. There is 1 Kg worth of vaporized meat from which it can regenerate


Crushing its flesh or cutting into it with swords and spears will do nothing, since they're not taking away any of the flesh it can use, the flesh will have come back and been assimilated into the main mass in the next second. If you evaporate pieces, the pieces won't be able to come back.
well, considering how GoB reduced one third of its body to nothingness...

eddyak
March 22nd, 2011, 05:24 PM
this statement is ridiculous. Medea being able to cast a spell as powerful as excaliblast, when the strongest offensive spells we've seen her use aren't even in the same league as caladbolg, or heck, even a single one of the NPs Gil shot cthulhu with...
Excalibur's beams are about 800 prana. Rin's circuits can blast off 1000 prana at once. Are you seriously telling me Caster's output doesn't exceed Rin's?

This. And take into account she was using this against weaklings.
http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq292/Eddyak/FateHollowAtaraxia103.jpg


The four Noble Phantasms hit it head on. Their power, enough to split mountains, blew one-third of the giant beast’s body into nothingness.
Metaphor. It says "nothingness", but that doesn't actually mean the weapons turned matter to nothing.


yes, there is. Vaporization doesn't mean it disappears, it just means the body goes from a solid state to a gas state.
And I don't see them being able to recreate themselves from molecules floating on the breeze.

food
March 22nd, 2011, 05:48 PM
This makes me want to know.... If Lancelot started using firearms, would Berserker take damage as Lancelot's STR is A? (Like in RPG's) What would happen if he threw the bullets?

I don't know, but logically there just has to be some variations.

You can't say a missile fired from an assimilated jet will do the same damage as a bullet fired from an assimilated gun.

TypeWannabe
March 22nd, 2011, 05:58 PM
>logically

Well there's your problem.

Mcjon01
March 22nd, 2011, 06:12 PM
And I don't see them being able to recreate themselves from molecules floating on the breeze.

And yet it can, will, and does if you don't take out the entire thing in one shot. The text is pretty clear that it's going to regenerate from anything less than that no matter how you do the damage.

Mike1984
March 22nd, 2011, 06:20 PM
Excalibur's beams are about 800 prana. Rin's circuits can blast off 1000 prana at once. Are you seriously telling me Caster's output doesn't exceed Rin's?

Prana output isn't the same as attack power....

Keyne
March 22nd, 2011, 06:23 PM
Prana output isn't the same as attack power....

Though when Rin was fighting Caster and wasting her A-rank gems, Caster still said that she was toying with her. If she can boast like that, then that means that she has a higher attack power that Rin.

Cruor
March 22nd, 2011, 06:25 PM
Rin wasn't swinging around Zelretch though (which is what we're referencing). She was pretty much throwing Prana grenades against Caster.

And yeah, according to game dialogue one slash of Zelretch which used 1000 units of Rin's Prana was = to one slash of Excalibur.

Shirou dialogue (IIRC Rin says something similar too) also states that Dark Sakura/Rin with Zelretch would've somehow managed to lose against Alter.

Keyne
March 22nd, 2011, 06:26 PM
Rin wasn't swinging around Zelretch though (which is what we're referencing). She was pretty much throwing Prana grenades against Caster.

Ah, ok.

Huntring
March 22nd, 2011, 06:32 PM
Rin wasn't swinging around Zelretch though (which is what we're referencing). She was pretty much throwing Prana grenades against Caster.

And yeah, according to game dialogue one slash of Zelretch which used 1000 units of Rin's Prana was = to one slash of Excalibur.

Shirou dialogue (IIRC Rin says something similar too) also states that Dark Sakura/Rin with Zelretch would've somehow managed to lose against Alter.

Wait where did it say one slash of Zelretch was equal to Exacalibur. It only said that the attack was similar to Excalibur not that it was equal in power.

Cruor
March 22nd, 2011, 06:40 PM
Wait where did it say one slash of Zelretch was equal to Exacalibur. It only said that the attack was similar to Excalibur not that it was equal in power.

It said the things Sakura was summoning were = to Excalibur (Whatever that means :rolleyes: also they were made using 1000 units of Prana). And that Zelretch slashes and Shadow Giants were about equally strong.

food
March 22nd, 2011, 06:41 PM
Caster does not even utilize the modern magic system Rin relies on. In other words, she does not use circuits in sorcery.

For her, I think the max output is basically whatever the amount of mana she hoarded. She can shoot one big fire ball of EX level, or spam rank A lasers.

TypeWannabe
March 22nd, 2011, 06:47 PM
Now, I believe it was said that the Shadow Giants were equal to a Noble Phantasm, not Excalibur in specific.

Dartz
March 22nd, 2011, 06:47 PM
Aren't Caster's spells pulled straight from the environment? I mean, Archer stated that inside the Ryoudoji temple, her magecraft was almost on the level of Sorcery. Seems like she becomes more powerful depending on how much mana is stored in the current environment.

Cruor
March 22nd, 2011, 06:49 PM
Kotonoha, where are your french translation files? I don't have them no longer and the old forum is dead.

food
March 22nd, 2011, 06:50 PM
Aren't Caster's spells pulled straight from the environment? I mean, Archer stated that inside the Ryoudoji temple, her magecraft was almost on the level of Sorcery. Seems like she becomes more powerful depending on how much mana is stored in the current environment.
I think that had more to do with Ryoudo Temple is Caster's Workshop/Territory.

EDIT:

I look up.
There's no moon, and seas of clouds are drifting through the night sky.
The black magus floats in the middle, as if reigning over the heavens.

"It must be transportation or control of matter. Either way, it seems you can do something close to sorcery in this territory.

It is more referring to Caster's uber rank Territory Creation.

Altima of the Gates
March 22nd, 2011, 07:59 PM
Now, I believe it was said that the Shadow Giants were equal to a Noble Phantasm, not Excalibur in specific.

They are pretty darn strong. You even see them eclipse the Einzbern castle in one part, where Ilya is trying to escape the forest. They are freaking huge. But here is the scene.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsx-5yanEGw&feature=related

It's really magical energy washing away magical energy. So her shadows are just equal to the prana output of Noble Phantasms. It's just being used in another way.
Whether you want to think they are equal in power (which I think they are) to NP's is up to you.

Cruor
March 22nd, 2011, 08:04 PM
Hmm... I thought the Excalibur comment was made just as they were summoned... Ah well, whatever.

giorno
March 22nd, 2011, 09:38 PM
Excalibur's beams are about 800 prana. Rin's circuits can blast off 1000 prana at once. Are you seriously telling me Caster's output doesn't exceed Rin's?
no, i'm saying prana output =/= power

if caster had a spell even near excaliblast levels of power, she wouldn't be so powerless against the likes of saber, berserker or rider, and yet she is. Nasu even stated she can't kill berserker more than 2-3 times. You are seriously overestimating caster


This. And take into account she was using this against weaklings.
it's nowhere near excaliblast


Metaphor. It says "nothingness", but that doesn't actually mean the weapons turned matter to nothing.
it says it got hit by 4 "bullets" each with enough energy to split mountains in two


And I don't see them being able to recreate themselves from molecules floating on the breeze.
and yet, that's what is implied in the novels...


For her, I think the max output is basically whatever the amount of mana she hoarded. She can shoot one big fire ball of EX level, or spam rank A lasers.
obviously not, as she's completely powerless against saber's magic resistance


I look up.
There's no moon, and seas of clouds are drifting through the night sky.
The black magus floats in the middle, as if reigning over the heavens.

"It must be transportation or control of matter. Either way, it seems you can do something close to sorcery in this territory.
the teleportation spell is what's on the level of sorcery, not the rain of light

eddyak
March 22nd, 2011, 09:51 PM
no, i'm saying prana output =/= power
Lol. What.


if caster had a spell even near excaliblast levels of power, she wouldn't be so powerless against the likes of saber, berserker or rider, and yet she is. Nasu even stated she can't kill berserker more than 2-3 times. You are seriously overestimating caster
And you're seriously underestimating her. The woman was casually letting off blasts that would've levelled the entire church in UBW, she can pull off stuff that's almost True Magic, and, hell, it's implied that she could pull off True Magic if she bothered to try, she can pull off ten-verse great magic with a wave of her hand.

giorno
March 22nd, 2011, 10:05 PM
Lol. What.
Ea. Excalibur. Medea doesn't come anywhere near in terms of firepower. That is a fact


And you're seriously underestimating her. The woman was casually letting off blasts that would've levelled the entire church in UBW
Gil casually shot out 4 NPs each capable of cleaving a mountain in two. Are you seriously comparing Medea's offensive spells to NPs??


she can pull off stuff that's almost True Magic

which has little relation to her offensive power, unless she had a spell on the same level as excalibur, which she doesn't.


and, hell, it's implied that she could pull off True Magic if she bothered to try, she can pull off ten-verse great magic with a wave of her hand.
ten-verse great magic is nothing compared to NPs though, at least in terms of sheer power, since A rank magecraft = C rank NPs...

Mcjon01
March 22nd, 2011, 10:07 PM
And you're seriously underestimating her. The woman was casually letting off blasts that would've levelled the entire church in UBW, she can pull off stuff that's almost True Magic, and, hell, it's implied that she could pull off True Magic if she bothered to try, she can pull off ten-verse great magic with a wave of her hand.


Q: Caster's ability as a magus is at the wizard level, but is it possible for Caster (Medea) to become a wizard in the future? Also, are there beings that have a "higher level as magi" than the current wizards?
A: Caster's a magus back in the day that true magic was common so she wouldn't have good affinity with the "Five True Magics of the Modern Era" anyhow, so, she isn't going to be able to pick up True Magic.

Also there are actually quite a few magi with level higher than the current wizards. In the first place, Aozaki Aoko herself is inferior as a magus than the lecturers of the Clock Tower.

It seems less like it's implying she could learn True Magic if she tried, and more like it's directly saying she can't. So yeah.

eddyak
March 22nd, 2011, 10:10 PM
Ea. Excalibur. Medea doesn't come anywhere near in terms of firepower. That is a fact
Doesn't matter. Excalibur's so powerful they had to maneuver Caster's demon into a place where they could be sure they wouldn't cut the city in half when she used Excalibur. Excalibur was so much overkill. She doesn't even need to use anywhere near that much power to obliterate it.


Gil casually shot out 4 NPs each capable of cleaving a mountain in two. Are you seriously comparing Medea's offensive spells to NPs??
No, I wasn't. You were.

food
March 22nd, 2011, 10:11 PM
To be honest I never understood this what the hell "true magic was common so she wouldn't have good affinity" means.

giorno
March 22nd, 2011, 10:16 PM
Doesn't matter. Excalibur's so powerful they had to maneuver Caster's demon into a place where they could be sure they wouldn't cut the city in half when she used Excalibur. Excalibur was so much overkill. She doesn't even need to use anywhere near that much power to obliterate it.

she would need an anti-fortress type spell on the level of an A+ rank NP at the very least

we've seen her big offensive spells, they're not that powerful

Cruor
March 22nd, 2011, 10:18 PM
To be honest I never understood this what the hell "true magic was common so she wouldn't have good affinity" means.

Probably something along the lines of the 'well, a Tohsaka has bad compatibility with Matou Thaumaturgy'-thing but that doesn't completely make sense either.

Altima of the Gates
March 22nd, 2011, 10:19 PM
To be honest I never understood this what the hell "true magic was common so she wouldn't have good affinity" means.

More than likely the magic system was different. Wasn't there a Tiger Dojo where Ilya says Caster is like her, where "she isn't so much learning magic as she has known magic ever since she was born"?

So I'd say "people just did it differently back then".

eddyak
March 22nd, 2011, 10:21 PM
she would need an anti-fortress type spell on the level of an A+ rank NP at the very least

we've seen her big offensive spells, they're not that powerful
She still has enough power to outlast Gilles, though. With a leyline, her own 3k+ mana and the entirety of Fuyuki city powering her spells, she could outlast that spellbook pretty easily, unless it had infinite prana or something.

Besides, even if she doesn't have a single spell that can deal that damage, she can always do what the Caster in Liner Prisma Ilya did.

FILL THE SKY FULL OF LAZ0RZ!!!

Mcjon01
March 22nd, 2011, 10:27 PM
To be honest I never understood this what the hell "true magic was common so she wouldn't have good affinity" means.

I like to think it's just that since so much more stuff was True Magic back then, anything Caster tries to pull out of her back of tricks is just going to get her laughed at. Like, Caster decides to wow everybody with her super secret True Magic Hi-Ougi, but then her callous magus audience isn't phased at all, and then somebody pulls out a lighter and asks if she thinks that's amazing too, and then everybody else goes back to talking about how awesome that thing Aoko did the other day was, where she shattered the boundaries of known science to fold reality inside out and grab hold of time itself.

And then Caster was sad.

Dartz
March 22nd, 2011, 11:08 PM
obviously not, as she's completely powerless against saber's magic resistance

Only magic below A Rank can't hurt Saber, yet it was stated in the battle against Archer in Ryuoudoji temple that the rain of light were all A Rank spells. So, this means that Caster is not completely powerless against Saber as long as the battleground is the Ryuoudoji temple.


She still has enough power to outlast Gilles, though. With a leyline, her own 3k+ mana and the entirety of Fuyuki city powering her spells, she could outlast that spellbook pretty easily, unless it had infinite prana or something.

Besides, even if she doesn't have a single spell that can deal that damage, she can always do what the Caster in Liner Prisma Ilya did.

FILL THE SKY FULL OF LAZ0RZ!!!


If Alexander's 1000 Heroic Spirits were unable to kill Gilles' Sea Demon, then I don't see how Caster might stand a chance. I don't think all of Alexander's HS were armed warriors, he must have some magicians as well. Also Caster's Sea Demon can absorb prana too (by eating whatever is in its way), and it was stated that the other Servants would be unable to kill it if it managed to reach the city.

deadfish
March 22nd, 2011, 11:56 PM
That's A rank inclusive. A rank spells can't do anything to Saber.

Twelveseal
March 23rd, 2011, 12:04 AM
Who was it that asked if this became a Badass Versus Thread?
People seem to be rageing over this, but really, the whole argument boils down to this.

X is greater than Y, where both are effectively unknowns. We do not fully understand the Rank system, since it seems to measure Mystery and not neccessarily any other given power. We do not know the full range of capabilities of some of the characters in question. We do not know all of the hidden factors or abilities of any given Noble Phantasm or spell. For example, nowhere in its description is Caliburn described as being able to kill a person seven times with a single strike. Yet it apparently does. We do not know how any number of vaguely described Skills or items actually work, what can affect them, etc...

For all we know, all the RPG rules in the setting could have just been added for flavor, with no real bearing on the content of the world.

That said, maybe we should take a breather for a sec, and admit that we could be wrong? This is the Wild Mass Guessing Thread, after all, so pretty much anything goes here, even if it's completely ridiculous. There's really no reason to get worked up over something here, right? I admit, I could very easily be wrong on anything I've said here, be it about Arc vs. Caster, or anything else. It's a wild mass guess, after all.

agentzero
March 23rd, 2011, 12:37 AM
So ignoring the current ****storm, and back to Arc powerlevalz...

@Dartz

I see, so you are saying that Demon Lords are no longer restricted? That makes sense, given what we know. But about elementals and demons, demons are a type of elemental according to fuyuki, and while a normal elemental can become a demon, there isn't anything about them no longer being elementals.

So, now I'll try and calculate this again.

6% = Arc's maximum after being killed by Shiki and holding back her blood thirst.
20% = Arc's maximum after being killed by Shiki.
30% = Arc's maximum while holding back her blood thirst.
80+% = Arc's maximum after getting back the power Roa stole, while holding back her thirst.
100% = Arc's maximum power without blood thirst.
150%+ = Arc's maximum after getting back the power Roa stole.

In addition to this, unless she goes crazy or is fighting in her castle, the world limits the power she can use in combat, depending on her enemy. Also, she will never run out of power, because the world constantly refills her.

So, when she turned Roa into a DA, he stole at least 1/3 of her power? That's quite a bit more than I'd expected, but that's what the math tells me. Although it seems in Melty she's back at 30%, so perhaps it's actually less, and the MEoDP damage was overcome? Or more likely, her blood thirst is increasing at a faster rate now that she's awake and interacting with people, having feelings for them and such, so it will level out and put her back near 30%? This seems plausible, because in Talk they seem to imply she's nearing her limits, or should be.

If we assume that the MEoDP damage never goes away, then even with the power Roa stole she'll end up weaker than she was before she was killed. Unless we up the amount Roa stole to something crazy. We could also balance it to perfectly put her back at 100%, making the power Roa stole and the MEoDP damage the same. But we never got any real numbers, and it's unclear what happened leading up to Melty, so we can't use the numbers from that as hard facts when talking about the stolen power. This is the guessing thread, so I guess it's appropriate that we can only speculate on this.

And now that I think about it, the 6% doesn't bother me so much. Because she isn't using enough power to suppress her thirst, the 6% is probably decreasing. Right after Shiki killed her, and she had 20%, she used 70% of that to suppress her thirst. but that isn't sustainable, so over the course of Tsukihime, she keeps having to use just at little more to stay sane, until she is down a like 1% or something when she faces Roa. Does that seem plausible?

Counterguardian
March 23rd, 2011, 03:31 AM
Yeah no. Fuck powerlevels.

What if Rin was the King of Britain instead of Saber? I'm imagining a lot of clumsy and tsundere hijinks here.

ItsaRandomUsername
March 23rd, 2011, 03:37 AM
TsundereTwintailed!Saber?

I approve.

Counterguardian
March 23rd, 2011, 03:44 AM
TsundereTwintailed!Saber?

I approve.

Not to mention Grade-S Zettai Ryouiki.

Keyne
March 23rd, 2011, 04:06 AM
Have fun hiding your gender and accepting all the hate and resentment for you with a straight face, Rin.

Ergast
March 23rd, 2011, 04:46 AM
OK, wait, so you're actually claiming that a normal (non-NP) sword attack could kill Berserker twelve times? That's ridiculous....

I don't think that's possible even if the guy was strong enough to deal that much damage, and there's no way in hell that Lancelot swinging a normal sword (even a very sharp one) is that strong.

Why not? Caliburn did that, after all (yeah, it has an explosion when it hits, but for what I understood, it was a pasive effect of the sword, not a called attack, Saber and shirou didn't cry "CALIBURN" before striking Zerker). And Arondight is really powerful for what we know, in theory even more powerful than Caliburn.



Yeah no. Fuck powerlevels.

What if Rin was the King of Britain instead of Saber? I'm imagining a lot of clumsy and tsundere hijinks here.


Tsundere magus king/queen with a two side and wearing Zettai Ryouiki grade S?

I aprove. I APROVE I SAID!

And Merlin would have the time of his life with this king, to be honest XD

meevanhelot
March 23rd, 2011, 07:41 AM
It was the NP attack of Caliburn that took seven lives (which we know is a slash of light like Excalibur thanks to Merodach), not the physical stab. If Arondight had an ability like that which Lance could use as a Berserker, he would have done it against Saber.

Also, Arondight's rank doesn't mean it is offensively more powerful than Caliburn, since it has a bunch of hax passive abilities that contribute to its ranking.

Keyne
March 23rd, 2011, 08:11 AM
Tsundere magus king/queen with a two side and wearing Zettai Ryouiki grade S?

I aprove. I APROVE I SAID!

And Merlin would have the time of his life with this king, to be honest XD
Poor Britain. ;_; You never had a chance to develop.

Dartz
March 23rd, 2011, 08:18 AM
@agentzero

Actually, there isn't anything indicating that she is only using 30% of power in Melty Blood. I doubt that she is using less than 50%, even if we take into account things like feelings and such, since she was never completely emotionless according to the Tsukihime prologue. Besides, she stated in Tsukihime that she would only need a couple of days in order to recover from the injuries made by the MEoDP. And well, Melty Blood doesn't follow her route, in her route, when Roa striked her dot of life, her power must have been decreased from whatever it was to 0%, and she revived only after Roa was killed, so it makes sense for her to have less power or for her bloodlust to be more advanced (in comparison to Ciel's, Sacchin's or the other far side routes), and for her to have more feelings for Shiki (specially since it is, well, her route). I think it is safe to assume that she can at least use 50% of power in MB, otherwise her efforts over those 800 years would have been kinda fruitless.

Also, 30% is already her limit, she can't remain active with less power than that for long. Remember that in Tsukihime she explicitly stated that this was the last chance she had to defeat Roa, otherwise she would need to return to her castle, and sleep there for the rest of eternity.

Flame
March 23rd, 2011, 12:43 PM
guy for whom tactics are pretty much "LET'S CALL EVERYONE FOR A BATTLE ROYALE AND SEE WHAT HAPPENS LOL", or "CHARGE AT THE CHICK WITH THE GLOWING SWORD THAT CAN WIPE OUT CTHULHU IN ONE HIT LOL" or "CHARGE AT THE KING OF HEROIC SPIRITS WITH THE ABILITY TO FIRE HUNDREDS OF WEAPONS WITH A SWORD LOL".

The Greatest Generals of All Time:
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/188085/the_greatest_generals_of_all_time.html
Generals - Top Ten (10) Military Leaders Of All Time:
http://www.gunslot.com/blog/generals-top-ten-10-military-leaders-all-time-w-pics
The Greatest Ancient Generals of All Time
http://www.suite101.com/content/the-greatest-ancient-generals-of-all-time-a217996
Greatest Leaders of All Time
http://www.the-top-tens.com/lists/greatest-leaders.asp



Not 'great' Heroic Spirit. They are all rank D Eirei. Footsoldiers that most likely have no abilities of their own. I don't know where you got that they did.



Servants are Heroic Spirits summoned by the Holy Grail. Once summoned, they can be classified as familiars as long as they are bound to a Master. Servants are legends from the past, present, or future. Because summoning even one heroic spirit is a miraculous occurence, summoning seven in their pure forms would be beyond the Holy Grail's power. Thus, to facilitate the process, Servants are summoned into one of seven vessels prepared beforehand. These vessels are classified based on their primary roles. Heroic Spirits can be summoned into any "class" that reflects the abilities they had in life.


Saber is a legendary hero. When she was summoned as a servant, she had the weapon she wielded in her life and all her skills.
Lancer is a famous hero. When he was summoned as a servant, he had the weapon he wielded in his life and all his skills.
Archer is a no name hero. When he was summoned as a servant, he had the weapon he wielded in his life and all his skills.
Rider is a famous spirit. When she was summoned as a servant, she had the weapon she wielded in her life and all her skills.
Caster is a famous spirit. When she was summoned as a servant, she had the weapon she wielded in her life and all her skills.
TAssassin is a no name hero/famous spirit (?). When he was summoned as a servant, he had the weapon he wielded in his life and all his skills.
Berserker is a legendary hero. When he was summoned as a servant, he had the weapon he wielded in his life and all his skills.
Diarmund is a famous hero. When he was summoned as a servant, he had the weapon he wielded in his life and all his skills.
Gilgamesh is a legendary hero. When he was summoned as a servant, he had the weapon he wielded in his life and all his skills.
Alexander is a legendary hero. When he was summoned as a servant, he had the weapon he wielded in her life and all his skills.
Gil Riles is a famous spirit. When he was summoned as a servant, he had the weapon he wielded in his life and all his skills.
Lancelot is a famous hero. When he was summoned as a servant, he had the weapon he wielded in his life and all his skills.

When a servant is summoned, he has his Noble Phantasm (symbol) and his regular skills.



The eyes of everyone widened as they noticed the mirage-like images that appeared around him. One, two, four….there were more and more images, ever increasing. The colors become clearer and more solid.

“The reason why this world can exist again... is because it is printed upon all of our hearts.”

Under their expressions of total shock, heavily armed cavalry materialized beside Alexander. Though their faces and equipments differed, their muscular bodies and mighty chargers displayed a fierceness that could only be found in a true army.

Only one person present understood what this situation meant.

“All of these beings…are servants!”

He was the only Master here, and so he understood. Servant Alexander's trump card, his true noble phantasm, was now appearing before his eyes.

“BEHOLD, MY PEERLESS ARMY!”

The King of Conquerors stood before the lines of cavalry and raised both of his arms to the skies, shouting with immeasurable pride.
Ionian Hetairoi

“Their bodies may return to ash, but their spirits still hear my call! These men are my legendary heroes – my loyal followers! They’re my true friends - breaking the rules of space and time to fight once more at my side!”

“They are my treasure within treasures; they’re my right to rule! They make up Alexander's mightiest Noble Phantasm – Ionian Hetairoi!!”

EX rank anti-army Noble Phantasm; the consecutive summon of multiple independent Servants.

The Lord of war, the Maharaorajah, and the founders of many dynasties – the peerless array of heroic spirits gathered here were only heard reverently in legends. All of the famed warriors standing here – all of them once fought beside Alexander the Great.

A riderless horse galloped towards Rider. It was a powerful and sleek steed. If it was human, it is probably just as impressive as any one of the Heroic Spirits standing before the king.

“Long time no see, pal.”

Rider smiled childishly as he hugged the neck of his horse. “She” was the legendary charger Bucephalus. Even the horse of the King of Conquerors became an Heroic Spirit.

Apart from shock and admiration, everyone was speechless. Even Archer, who also possessed a rank EX Noble Phantasm, was utterly silent after seeing such a radiant army.



And one by one, the Heroic Spirits hastened to the stage of the decisive battle they were ordered to.

"Ahh......"

This was the second time Waver had seen the spectacle of the arrayed Ionion Hetairoi in their magnificence. Even though it was no longer something to be shocked by, now that he knew the meaning of this ultimate Noble Phantasm which actualized the kingship of Alexander, he was overwhelmed by a sense of awe even greater than the first time.

The shining elites of the cavalry - the bond of lord and servant they had formed with the King of Conquerors once upon a time could overcome even the separation of life and the afterlife.

There was no place where their battlefield, sublimed into eternity, could not be actualized. If the King of Conquerors would again set forth in tyranny, then no matter where he was, his servants would hasten to him.

That was the pride of being together with the King.

The joy of being able to battle together, of their hot surging blood.



The Companions (Greek: ἑταῖροι, hetairoi) were the elite cavalry of the Macedonian army from the time of king Philip II of Macedon and reached the most prestige under Alexander the Great, and have been regarded as the best cavalry in the ancient world and the first shock cavalry. Chosen Companions/Hetairoi formed the elite guard of the king (Somatophylakes).



Companion cavalry would ride the best horses, and receive the best weaponry available. In Alexander's day, each carried a xyston, and wore a bronze cuirass, shoulder guards and Boeotian helmets, but bore no shield. A kopis (curved slashing sword) was also carried for close combat, should the xyston break. Their horses had a large amount of thick felt draped over their sides, while they probably had partial breast and head plating for protection against spears, missiles etc.



It's ranked EX for a reason.

I'm more interested in where you got "regular foot soldiers" from.



Defeating someone the moment they're in your sight > Javelins, swords and arrows.

NPs, not regular Javelins, swords and arrows.



The Heroic Spirits that have high enough magic resistance to avoid being completely turned to stone will be slowed like hell, and mowed down by the flying horse.


Or alternatively, they could blow her up in the sky with an NP or just spam a fuck load of NPs at her all at once. And you're forgetting that Ionian encompasses 2500+ horsemen, not 200 or 500.

That's 2,500+ legendary heroic spirits (servants).



There is also not a chance in hell Alex's soldiers would be able to take down Medusa on Bellerophon, unless he's got soldiers with the equivalent of Excalibur or someshit.


Her eye's range is limited. If her eye sight reaches "infinity" as you two are claiming then why didn't a shitty magus like Shirou get turned into stone directly in the hallway that spans several meters or so? The eyes are effective within a certain distance and they do not penetrate past obstacles.

Your claim that the entire army gets turned to stone is only plausible if the eye's have a 360 degrees effect, very long reaching (Alex's army is pretty fucking huge) and additionally that all the legendary heroes have below B MGI, and all the legendary heroes merely wait for her to activate her eyes and then wait for her to activate her horse and then wait for her fly away from their effective range and just stand there and let her kill them one by one putting aside that they are all legendary heroes each with a legend/Noble Phantasm/ability of their own and putting aside that the horses can jump very fucking high and putting aside that mounted spirits are much faster than normal spirit

And finally, you are forgetting the shock and awe effect of witnessing Ionian being activated. Even Gilgamesh was awed by the RM, Rider has no chance. Chances are she'll be too terrified to do shit before getting trampled.


/iMad

Keyne
March 23rd, 2011, 12:48 PM
Lancelot is a legendary hero. When he was summoned as a servant, he had the weapon he wielded in his life and all his skills.
fix'd

eddyak
March 23rd, 2011, 01:14 PM
The Greatest Generals of All Time:
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/188085/the_greatest_generals_of_all_time.html
Generals - Top Ten (10) Military Leaders Of All Time:
http://www.gunslot.com/blog/generals-top-ten-10-military-leaders-all-time-w-pics
The Greatest Ancient Generals of All Time
http://www.suite101.com/content/the-greatest-ancient-generals-of-all-time-a217996
Greatest Leaders of All Time
http://www.the-top-tens.com/lists/greatest-leaders.asp
And the history books said nothing about him being a giant, or about him having the ability to pull his chariot out of nowhere. Nasu's interpretation is the only one that matters here.


When a servant is summoned, he has his Noble Phantasm (symbol) and his regular skills.
Yeah, because all his warriors had super powerful NPs and all had legends of their own. No, wait, they were a nameless, faceless army that are part of the NP of a greater hero because they couldn't gain legends of their own.


NPs, not regular Javelins, swords and arrows.
It took an Excaliblast to kill Bellerophon, and all those javelins and arrows couldn't even be legendary. They're just random mooks that joined his army, none of them are legendary, none of them could take on a real Heroic Spirit.


Or alternatively, they could blow her up in the sky with an NP or just spam a fuck load of NPs at her all at once. And you're forgetting that Ionian encompasses 2500+ horsemen, not 200 or 500.
The NPs will do nothing. You're forgetting that even though they're NPs, not one of them has a legend attached to it that could overcome an A+ ranked Phantasmal beast.


Your claim that the entire army gets turned to stone is only plausible if the eye's have a 360 degrees effect, very long reaching (Alex's army is pretty fucking huge) and additionally that all the legendary heroes have below B MGI, and all the legendary heroes merely wait for her to activate her eyes and then wait for her to activate her horse and then wait for her fly away from their effective range and just stand there and let her kill them one by one putting aside that they are all legendary heroes each with a legend/Noble Phantasm/ability of their own and putting aside that the horses can jump very fucking high and putting aside that mounted spirits are much faster than normal spirit
And putting aside the fact that her eyes' effective range is limited only by sight, and putting aside the fact that Ionian Hetaroi doesn't exactly set her in the middle of the army when summoned, and putting aside the fact that Alex would rather enjoy a battle than just immediately attacking and killing his opponent.


And finally, you are forgetting the shock and awe effect of witnessing Ionian being activated. Even Gilgamesh was awed by the RM, Rider has no chance. Chances are she'll be too terrified to do shit before getting trampled.
Works the other way around too. Having hundreds of their friends turn to stone, and then some freaky magic circle appear out of her blood and then having her ride a glowing, flying horse that melts its way through their army like a hot knife through butter can't exactly be good for their morale.

Altima of the Gates
March 23rd, 2011, 02:26 PM
It's ranked EX for a reason.

I'm more interested in where you got "regular foot soldiers" from.

Yes, it is something akin to a Reality Marble that summoned his former compatriots, who got a rank up to Heroic Spirits. They are still Rank D Heroic Spirits, there weapons can certainly hurt her, but it is nowhere near the curbstomp you are implying.


NPs, not regular Javelins, swords and arrows.

Which means they are able to harm her, but...that doesn't mean that they automatically get 'legendary' equipment.

Eddy took care of anything else I wanted to say. Alex is awesome, but you're assuming quite a lot.

Mike1984
March 23rd, 2011, 02:29 PM
I'm reasonably sure that is how it works, though. It makes the most sense, when you consider all the wacky RPG rules that we don't know that run the Nasuverse. Convert God Hand into game mechanics and it basically just means that Berserker has 12 health bars that slowly refill over time. Of course a strong enough attack is going to eat through multiple health bars.

Well, it makes more sense than just randomly deciding certain attacks must have an unlisted special effect of being able to kill people multiple times over.

Or, alternately, killing him twelve times means killing him in twelve actually different ways, like it would for a normal person. So, one attack kills him by removing his head, one by shredding his heart, and so on....


Why not? Caliburn did that, after all (yeah, it has an explosion when it hits, but for what I understood, it was a pasive effect of the sword, not a called attack, Saber and shirou didn't cry "CALIBURN" before striking Zerker). And Arondight is really powerful for what we know, in theory even more powerful than Caliburn.

Yes, but Excalibur can't do that and, further, if Arondight had such an ability, why didn't Lancelot use it in the game?


Also, Arondight's rank doesn't mean it is offensively more powerful than Caliburn, since it has a bunch of hax passive abilities that contribute to its ranking.

No, but the fact that it's stated to be equal in power to Excalibur implies that it is more powerful than Caliburn. And, it's ridiculous to call something "powerful" because it gives you a couple of status buffs.

Dartz
March 23rd, 2011, 02:56 PM
Yes, it is something akin to a Reality Marble that summoned his former compatriots, who got a rank up to Heroic Spirits. They are still Rank D Heroic Spirits, there weapons can certainly hurt her, but it is nowhere near the curbstomp you are implying.

Where was it stated that they are Rank D Heroic Spirits? All I remember is that they had E Rank Independent Action, meaning that they can act without Alexander for a while.

Mcjon01
March 23rd, 2011, 03:08 PM
Or, alternately, killing him twelve times means killing him in twelve actually different ways, like it would for a normal person.

This is probably the most nonsensical thing that I have ever read and I have no idea how to respond to it. Are all of your friends semi-immortals? I think you have a distorted definition of normal.

Mike1984
March 23rd, 2011, 03:30 PM
This is probably the most nonsensical thing that I have ever read and I have no idea how to respond to it. Are all of your friends semi-immortals? I think you have a distorted definition of normal.

Well, I meant normal in the sense of how you would kill a normal human. I.e, not by depleting some "health bar", but by actually causing a "critical wound" (or waiting for them to bleed out/die of shock, I guess...). Which, given that he has Battle Continuation, is probably actually the only way to kill him.

Just, you have to do it twelve times, not once....

Mcjon01
March 23rd, 2011, 03:49 PM
Okay, that makes more sense. And I kind of agree, in that I don't think anything like HP values exist in-universe. But that doesn't mean they don't have HP bars, it just means that the "RPG layer" of the Nasuverse exists primarily as a higher-order descriptive tool, more relevant to us (or Nasu, rather) than to the actual characters. So, while I might describe something that takes out seven of Berserker's lives with terms like damage overflow and health bars, the characters would simply call it a stupendously powerful attack.

That's what I was getting at, I think. Though I may have changed my mind without realizing it when I was mulling everything over.

eddyak
March 23rd, 2011, 04:10 PM
I reckon the RPG-like aspects are just a part of the way the HGW was created. They couldn't completely describe all the effects of all the Servants' NPs and such, so they reduced it to more basic terms, like "character must take either x damage or at least y amount of force to certain critical areas".

Mike1984
March 23rd, 2011, 04:18 PM
Okay, that makes more sense. And I kind of agree, in that I don't think anything like HP values exist in-universe. But that doesn't mean they don't have HP bars, it just means that the "RPG layer" of the Nasuverse exists primarily as a higher-order descriptive tool, more relevant to us (or Nasu, rather) than to the actual characters. So, while I might describe something that takes out seven of Berserker's lives with terms like damage overflow and health bars, the characters would simply call it a stupendously powerful attack.

That's what I was getting at, I think. Though I may have changed my mind without realizing it when I was mulling everything over.

Yes, but there is an important difference. In real life, there's no such thing as a "stupendously powerful attack", only an attack that is powerful enough to destroy whatever it hit. It is meaningless to say that a sufficiently powerful strike could kill someone more than once, in the same way as it's meaningless to say that a bulldoser could destroy a wall more than once with a single hit, however fast the ball was moving. However, blowing the same wall up with dynamite could be seen as destroying that wall "more than once", in the sense that rather than just making a big hole in it and causing it to collapse, you've made lots of holes in it, any one of which might have caused it to collapse.

Flame
March 23rd, 2011, 04:36 PM
And the history books said nothing about him being a giant, or about him having the ability to pull his chariot out of nowhere. Nasu's interpretation is the only one that matters here.


.......................................

source:fate/zero
Name: Iskander
Class: Rider
Skill:
Military Tactics
Rank: B

http://www.baka-tsuki.org/project/images/f/f1/FZ_v03_00h.jpg





Yeah, because all his warriors had super powerful NPs and all had legends of their own. No, wait, they were a nameless, faceless army that are part of the NP of a greater hero because they couldn't gain legends of their own.




It took an Excaliblast to kill Bellerophon, and all those javelins and arrows couldn't even be legendary. They're just random mooks that joined his army, none of them are legendary, none of them could take on a real Heroic Spirit.





The eyes of everyone widened as they noticed the mirage-like images that appeared around him. One, two, four….there were more and more images, ever increasing. The colors become clearer and more solid.

“The reason why this world can exist again... is because it is printed upon all of our hearts.”

Under their expressions of total shock, heavily armed cavalry materialized beside Alexander. Though their faces and equipments differed, their muscular bodies and mighty chargers displayed a fierceness that could only be found in a true army.

Only one person present understood what this situation meant.

“All of these beings…are servants!”

He was the only Master here, and so he understood. Servant Alexander's trump card, his true noble phantasm, was now appearing before his eyes.

“BEHOLD, MY PEERLESS ARMY!”

The King of Conquerors stood before the lines of cavalry and raised both of his arms to the skies, shouting with immeasurable pride.
Ionian Hetairoi

“Their bodies may return to ash, but their spirits still hear my call! These men are my legendary heroes – my loyal followers! They’re my true friends - breaking the rules of space and time to fight once more at my side!”

“They are my treasure within treasures; they’re my right to rule! They make up Alexander's mightiest Noble Phantasm – Ionian Hetairoi!!”

EX rank anti-army Noble Phantasm; the consecutive summon of multiple independent Servants.

The Lord of war, the Maharaorajah, and the founders of many dynasties – the peerless array of heroic spirits gathered here were only heard reverently in legends. All of the famed warriors standing here – all of them once fought beside Alexander the Great.

A riderless horse galloped towards Rider. It was a powerful and sleek steed. If it was human, it is probably just as impressive as any one of the Heroic Spirits standing before the king.

“Long time no see, pal.”

Rider smiled childishly as he hugged the neck of his horse. “She” was the legendary charger Bucephalus. Even the horse of the King of Conquerors became an Heroic Spirit.

Apart from shock and admiration, everyone was speechless. Even Archer, who also possessed a rank EX Noble Phantasm, was utterly silent after seeing such a radiant army.


From your own words: "Nasu's interpretation is the only one that matters here."





The NPs will do nothing. You're forgetting that even though they're NPs, not one of them has a legend attached to it that could overcome an A+ ranked Phantasmal beast.




Which means they are able to harm her, but...that doesn't mean that they automatically get 'legendary' equipment.



Yes, it is something akin to a Reality Marble that summoned his former compatriots, who got a rank up to Heroic Spirits. They are still Rank D Heroic Spirits, there weapons can certainly hurt her, but it is nowhere near the curbstomp you are implying.



Hence why I said they'd spam a fuckload at her all at once to kill her. I'm talking about exploding 1~2500+ NPs in Rider's face from an army of 2500+ horsemen. Though only 250 or so should enough, dragon-tier defence and all.

And where do you get rank D heroic spirits from? This is the first time I hear of it.



Works the other way around too.


If her eyes are sealed, she'd be shocked and awed and then trampled upon before she can do shit. If Gilgamesh was awed then Rider doesn't stand a chance.



And putting aside the fact that her eyes' effective range is limited only by sight, and putting aside the fact that Ionian Hetaroi doesn't exactly set her in the middle of the army when summoned, and putting aside the fact that Alex would rather enjoy a battle than just immediately attacking and killing his opponent.


1) Captain obvious to the rescue, and I already said that.

2)


As the world changed, the positions of the five who were initially surrounded also changed.

The Assassins, originally surrounding the group have been moved aside to one side. Rider stood in the center. In the other side stood Saber, Archer, and the two Masters. This is to say that Rider stood before the Assassins by himself.


Please remember their positions.
The Assassins completely surrounded them and all of them were moved to one side. Saber and the others were scattered about Alexander and all of them were moved to another side. Rider remained in the middle.

Please don't make me draw a diagram. Please.

3) Alexander the Great is the greatest military genius to walk the earth. He wouldn't bother to enjoy a battle against a dangerous foe like Rider whom happens to be highly incompatible with him. This is one v one of course, using Ionian is a different matter.



Having hundreds of their friends turn to stone, and then some freaky magic circle appear out of her blood and then having her ride a glowing, flying horse that melts its way through their army like a hot knife through butter can't exactly be good for their morale.

It takes a few seconds to fully activate Bellerophon. More than enough time for her to get trampled by mounted heroic spirits/get sniped by several NPs/get nuked by several broken phantasms.

[1] Rider activates Ionian and shoves Rider several meters away, her eyes can't do shit at that range. Medusa starts activating Bellerophon and three hundred broken phantasms fly towards her blowing the fuck out of her.

[2] Rider fights Rider one v one. Rider takes off her mask, Alex doesn't jump back in time, Alex gets frozen.



Eddy took care of anything else I wanted to say. Alex is awesome, but you're assuming quite a lot.


No I'm not.

Your assumptions:
1) Rider's eyes have a 360 degrees effect.
2) Rider's eyes have infinite reach.
3) Spamming hundreds of Noble/Broken Phantasms on Bellerophon!Rider won't do shit.
4) Ionian would stand idly while Rider activates her eyes.
5) Ionian would stand idly while Rider activates her circle.
6) Ionian would stand idly while Rider kills them one by one.
7) An army of battle harden warriors who fought for years and managed to conquer half of the known world will get frightened because a hundred or so of their colleges got turned into stone.
8) The entire army of servants all have C or below MGI.
9) Rider's eyes can penetrate through obstacles
10) Ionian horsemen cannot jump really fucking high even though fate/zero states its possible

My assumptions:
1) Ionian each have NPs and abilites of their own since fate/zero clearly states they are all servants.
2) Not every servant has C MGI as the script states they are all legendary heroes.
3) Spamming several hundred broken phantasms on an A+ creature results in the creature's death.



Oh yeah, another thing,
"No, wait, they were a nameless, faceless army...."

EMIYA.



god I'm tired...

ItsaRandomUsername
March 23rd, 2011, 04:40 PM
Ever since page 4 this became a powerlevel discussion.

WHAT. THE. FUCK.

HitokiriNanaya
March 23rd, 2011, 04:44 PM
Hai gais whats going on in this threa-....oh god

eddyak
March 23rd, 2011, 04:46 PM
Your assumptions:
1) Rider's eyes have a 360 degrees effect.
2) Rider's eyes have infinite reach.
3) Spamming hundreds of Noble/Broken Phantasms on Bellerophon!Rider won't do shit.
4) Ionian would stand idly while Rider activates her eyes.
5) Ionian would stand idly while Rider activates her circle.
6) Ionian would stand idly while Rider kills them one by one.
7) An army of battle harden warriors who fought for years and managed to conquer half of the known world will get frightened because a hundred or so of their colleges got turned into stone.
8) The entire army of servants all have C or below MGI.
9) Rider's eyes can penetrate through obstacles
10) Ionian horsemen cannot jump really fucking high even though fate/zero states its possible

My assumptions:
1) Ionian each have NPs and abilites of their own since fate/zero clearly states they are all servants.
2) Not every servant has C MGI as the script states they are all legendary heroes.
3) Spamming several hundred broken phantasms on an A+ creature results in the creature's death.

Your assumptions:

1) Rider stands there like an idiot and lets 250 people chuck NPs at her.
2) The army can actually do anything in the time it takes her to reach up and take off a blindfold.
3) The army are gonna know how to BP.
4) The army can see or walk through their frozen friends.
5) Horses can jump as high as Pegasus can fly.
6) That Rider will stand there like an idiot whilst the guy pulls out his greatest NP.
7) That she won't just immediately attack, break his sword with Monstrous Strength and kill him.

Keyne
March 23rd, 2011, 04:48 PM
My assumptions: CATFIGHT!!

food
March 23rd, 2011, 05:21 PM
I don't think the Ionians all have true Noble Phantasms. Maybe they hold weapons like Alex's sword, but not anything worth mentioning.

In Zero Alex actually asked Gilgamesh to collaborate so his Ionians can use Gilgamesh's Gate of Babylon for weapons, so they can conquer the world.

Also, why can't Medusa just go "FUCK THIS" and let her Monstrous Strength blow and turn Phantasmal Beast on Alex?


EDIT:

Also, you have to remember that Medusa killed and ate a lot of heroes back in the AGE OF GODS. I am sure nameless heroes in the Age of Gods were a lot better than the heroes in Alex's army (ancient ppl are better by default). Furthermore, if Medusa can turn heroes from Age of Gods to stone, she can do it to pretty much everyone in Alex's army.

One more thing, typing things in bigger fonts does not make you more right.

Cruor
March 23rd, 2011, 05:26 PM
Also, why can't Medusa just go "FUCK THIS" and let her Monstrous Strength blow and turn Phantasmal Beast on Alex?
Doesn't Medusa not like that form >_> infact doesn't she start having delusions of her sisters in that form?

food
March 23rd, 2011, 05:37 PM
She doesn't like that form, and she doesn't like to show that form to everyone.

However, we are talking death match scenario holding nothing back.

Medusa is probably one of the most powerful phantasmal beasts out there. She is just going to beam all the soldiers like a light house, turning them into stone, and fuck shit up.


EDIT:

Not to mention she can fuck more shit up by activating the true Blood Fort as a Gorgon instead of the kitty version Rider used in Fate.

Perseus had to use five NP which were specifically chosen for nothing but taking the Gorgon down. Alex generic army stands no chance. It will be over real fast.

Mcjon01
March 23rd, 2011, 05:39 PM
Yes, but there is an important difference. In real life, there's no such thing as a "stupendously powerful attack", only an attack that is powerful enough to destroy whatever it hit.

And? We're not talking about real life, we're talking about a narrative set in an entirely fictional universe.

Huntring
March 23rd, 2011, 06:08 PM
It should be noted that Rider(zero) can still use his flying chariot in his reality marble. Even if Rider uses the Pegusas he still has the potential to knock her off the air.

food
March 23rd, 2011, 06:42 PM
Not if she smacks Alex off the chariot with her serpentine tentacles.

Huntring
March 23rd, 2011, 06:43 PM
Thats assuming she has tentecles................. unless its from Fate Hollow Axteria cause I haven't played that yet

food
March 23rd, 2011, 06:51 PM
Ya, it's from Rider's memory in HA.

Medusa in her phantasmal beast form is crazy. Rider is but a shadow of her former self in terms of power.

She's kind of like the Nine Tails in EXTRA, using her weak humanoid form instead of the true destructive phantasmal beast form.

Mike1984
March 23rd, 2011, 06:56 PM
And? We're not talking about real life, we're talking about a narrative set in an entirely fictional universe.

Yes, but we're talking about Real-Life mechanics (as opposed to RPG mechanics, where health is controlled by a "health bar").

Huntring
March 23rd, 2011, 06:56 PM
There are still a lot of factors in play. I say its going to be a real close fight if they both fought to their full capablities and not a curbstomp battle like you guys are making it sound.

food
March 23rd, 2011, 07:03 PM
Remember the Cthuhu thing in Zero? The one Alex can't kill?

Medusa is like it, except she has Blood Fort as home turf and can turn people into stone and fuck shit up real good.


EDIT:

It is implied she has super regeneration too, because the main ability of Herp, the sword used to slay her, is to prevent regeneration.

Dartz
March 23rd, 2011, 07:11 PM
But how? So, the transformation into a Gorgon made her weaker or stronger? And if she has that much power, why didn't she use it during the Holy Grail?

food
March 23rd, 2011, 07:14 PM
She doesn't want to. It is like a self imposed ban.

There's so much regret tied to that form, and she never wanted Sakura and Shirou to learn about her tragic past (or see her horrendous demonic form).

Also, read up on the ungodly power of Medusa.


The day of the battle

The moment he stepped onto the palace of darkness

…The island is nothing compared to what people said.

The sun doesn’t shine here, the air is dense, organic materials are decomposing.

Like hell that allows no living things, the palace of darkness dyed crimson from blood

Have I already died, and fallen to Hades? He asks himself

It doesn’t matter how exalted he is with the gods, Perseus, being a hero of no achievements, could not stand the sight.

He already lost his pride, no matter how exquisitely he desposes of the monster.

In his heart, he has already abandoned the hopes for glory.

Right now he only has one wish: to quickly find the monster, to quickly slay the monster, to quickly get out of here.

Skin being singed by the scorching air, the feet stepping on the ground are slowly melting.

If one stays here for too long, it doesn’t even matter what happens after the battle

The monster is deep in the palace, any regular challenger can only march to his death.

Holding his breath, not making a sound, resisting the impulse to lament, Perseus pushed on carefully

The palace is huge.

No, it’s gigantic.

It doesn’t matter what type of palace this is, it is impossible to build such a thing.

This gigantic palace makes Perseus miniature.

No, it’s not that the palace is big.

It’s that Perseus’s body, compared to the mystical force, is as small as an insect.

Then, several minutes later

no, tens of minutes later, the mirror shield gave Perseus a warning.

The mirror shield showed all the sorroundings on it’s reflective surface.

The shield became a detector, it revealed the entire palace as well as Perseus’s own beating heart.

…as well as the heart of the monster that is getting closer and closer.

The scenary is being distorted

Out of the abyss some kind of strange monster is crawling out.

Do not look directly

Perseus notes, until the battle is over, his gaze must not leave the mirror shield.

Battle is unavoidable

After a few seconds, Perseus flew towards the monster to initiate the fight.

…but…

Before then, at a point, what he saw was different from what he heard.

Within this magical realm lived three beautiful sisters.

But the mirror only showed two beating harts: his own and the monster’s

…Then…

The snake maden Medusa and her sisters’ heartbeats…where did they disappear to?

The gorgon’s beast stepped through the stone pillars as it felt Perseus’s presence.

Perseus cursed.

Gods…what kind of glory did you promise me…

This fight is impossible to win

The monster resembles more of a demon.

In this situation, the noble phantasms given to him are merely life support.

Like a ship in a hurricane

Perseus is being ruthlessly battered by the waves, but he resists tenaciously.

In order to win, in order to defeat it, none of the noble phantasms have been used.

This battle is only about waiting.

Perseus, not yet a hero, can only achieve such a status by winning this battle, has no method yet of defeating the gorgon.

“…Perseus possess traits of a mere mortal. If he could defeat the gorgon…then…”

Perseus uses the winged sandles to repeatedly avoid lethal attacks.

While avoiding the gorgon’s death gaze, he could also avoid its shoulders.

However, that’s it.

The monster knows that even at the end, it would still not feel the threat of its prey.

It’s only an eye sore, but continuing like this is trouble some, so it released its own Temple


Self Seal: Temple of Darkness

A boundary field that is just as big as the Temple of Blood on the Shapeless Island (Note, the Temple of Blood refers to Blood Fort Andromeda, the same one which Rider had casted on Shiro’s school in Fate/Stay Night. This is what made the island weird and stuff, though it wasn’t directly mentioned).

If Temple of Blood is a boundary field that covers the world, then the Temple of Darkness is one that seals the world.

Anyone caught in the boundary field will be sealed within the gorgon’s heart. Any abilities connected to the external world will also be sealed.

The Temple of Darkness is different from the Mystic Eyes, a person will become submerged as long as he is within the area of the gorgon’s power.

Perseus has no methods of escape. The monster, sensing no danger, unleashes its powers.


Do you still doubt she can fuck up Alexander's army?

Huntring
March 23rd, 2011, 07:18 PM
Your doing to much speculating for my taste, although I haven't played Hollow Axterxia yet but from what I read no where does it say Rider has all these insane abilities in Type Moon wiki (granted their information is sometimes inaccurate or old) or for that fact anywhere. In either case Rider (zero) is still one of the stronger servents and if Fate Rider can really handle him as well as you say she could she could than she should've beat Saber Alter easily too. But she didn't and actually required Shirou's help to bail her out. So I will maintian that it will be a close fight no matter what and the victor will be wounded and tired enough that a average magus can finish them off.

food
March 23rd, 2011, 07:19 PM
I just posted the part from HA.

I am not speculating anything.

All of Rider's NP just reflect a small fragment of her true power as Medusa.

Should she unleashes her true form, Alexander stands no chance.

Zero.

Satehi
March 23rd, 2011, 07:20 PM
Just a point, but unless Rider hides in the pegasus's stomach, she's not completely invulnerable.

Also, wasn't there something about summoned servants can't be monsters, and thus Rider was summoned in her human(ish) form?

food
March 23rd, 2011, 07:23 PM
Tapping into Monstrous Strength will revert her back to Medusa. It is in the abilities description.

She pretty much always has the option to "turn". She simply refuses to go all the way due to her own will.

Huntring
March 23rd, 2011, 07:24 PM
Your speculating that Rider has some sort of regen ability. Your also overestimating Rider and underestimating Rider (zero). Also for all we know Persuas can be one of the weaker servents and that's why he was so freaked out. He might have needed 5 noble phantasm to cover up his own weakness. Another note is that there is no way any of Persuas Noble Phantasm surpasses B rank. They all seem rather weak and are used for support instead.

Mcjon01
March 23rd, 2011, 07:26 PM
Yes, but we're talking about Real-Life mechanics (as opposed to RPG mechanics, where health is controlled by a "health bar").

Even in RPGs, health isn't really controlled by a health bar, it's just an interpretive layer in place to help the viewer interface with the narrative. And I don't really think we are talking about real life mechanics here, since if you're going by that metric then hitting someone with multiple fatal shots at once to kill them multiple times makes just as little sense.

I mean, seriously, if you start taking issue with every little thing in the Nasuverse that doesn't follow real-life mechanics, it's going to be a long post even for you.

food
March 23rd, 2011, 07:27 PM
Your speculating that Rider has some sort of regen ability. Your also overestimating Rider and underestimating Rider (zero). Also for all we know Persuas can be one of the weaker servents and that's why he was so freaked out. He might have needed 5 noble phantasm to cover up his own weakness. Another note is that there is no way any of Persuas Noble Phantasm surpasses B rank. They all seem rather weak and are used for support instead.
Wait what?

Where does it say Perseus is weak?

He was one of the great Heroes. It is only said that he is an ass hole and failure of a human being. No where does it say he is actually weak. My comment about Medusa's regeneration has relatively sound basis, because Harpe is the Medusa-slaying sword, and it was almost certainly chosen for its special property.

You are the one doing the speculating.

Five NP were used not because Perseus is weak. It was because Medusa is a monster that had fucked up everyone who dared to tread on the island before.

Cruor
March 23rd, 2011, 07:28 PM
food you forgot to post your image.

http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/5022/fhamedusa.jpg

Also why did Nasu put Medusa goodness but no Riastrad Lancer (instead giving us Scathach)?

food
March 23rd, 2011, 07:31 PM
Thank you Cruor, I was just looking for that picture.

Keyne
March 23rd, 2011, 07:33 PM
food you forgot to post your image.

http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/5022/fhamedusa.jpg

Also why did Nasu put Medusa goodness but no Riastrad Lancer (instead giving us Scathach)?

"I SEE YOU~~"

food
March 23rd, 2011, 07:36 PM
And yes, those were the serpentine tentacles I was talking about earlier.

Huntring
March 23rd, 2011, 10:31 PM
Wait what?

Where does it say Perseus is weak?

He was one of the great Heroes. It is only said that he is an ass hole and failure of a human being. No where does it say he is actually weak. My comment about Medusa's regeneration has relatively sound basis, because Harpe is the Medusa-slaying sword, and it was almost certainly chosen for its special property.

You are the one doing the speculating.

Five NP were used not because Perseus is weak. It was because Medusa is a monster that had fucked up everyone who dared to tread on the island before.

We haven't seen Perseus yet (except in his fight with Medusa) so we don't know his power in comparsion to the rest of the cast. Does it actually state that Perseus is stronger than Berserker or Saber? In fact does it give us a clear estimate of his power besides the fact that he beat Medusa with Noble Phantasms specialized in taking down her? If it doesn't than its alright to assume he's weak unless Word of God say's otherwise. You can assume he's strong or weak until the author proves otherwise. I simpily assumed he's weak.

Rider's true form looks awesome in its own way but I still think its going to be a close fight between her and Rider Zero until proven otherwise. Call me a stubborn fool if you want but I feel that it's a fairly good assumption.

food
March 23rd, 2011, 11:27 PM
Funny you bring up Berserker, because Perseus is a son of Zeus (even in Nasuverse). Of course he won't be on the same calibre as Berserker, but given individual of Age of Gods are inherently stronger and also adding a splash of divine blood, Perseus certainly won't be weak (the indirect evidence points to strong).

Of course the point I posted the scene was not to show case Perseus, the point was to show you the things at Medusa's disposal.

If it has taken demigod from the Age of Gods five carefully selected NP's to take down Medusa, a mortal army won't do you much good, at all.

You keep saying "close fight", but there's nothing really to support that. The closest thing we have to such an encounter is the Cthulhu thing in Zero, and even that was not a "close fight", Alex didn't get anywhere.

And here we have Medusa, who packs special abilities and is much badder than Cthulhu thing, and also comes with her own battle stadium/home turf.

I don't really see on what basis your assumption is "good".

Huntring
March 23rd, 2011, 11:42 PM
I base my assumption on the fact that I haven't actually seen Medusa using that form to fight so I don't know how much its like Bluebeards monster. I also haven't seen Perseus fight. For all I know he can be a sneaky bastard that got lucky and became a legend. Also the army can't be weak, they each count as servents,and also Rider (zero) still has his chariot that are suppose to be a gift from Zeus. Honestly I don't like A vs B fights that didn't happen or couldn't happen because we each will just be bias for our favorite characters. So we all will make our assumptions about things and by that point it will turn into a pointless arguement. I still insist that it will be a close fight and you still insist that Medusa will won by a landslide and we clearly aren't doing a good job of convincing the opposition than lets just stop.

food
March 23rd, 2011, 11:51 PM
The thing is you aren't doing any much convincing at all, not from what I've read so far.

Simply pleading ignorance and dismissing the arguments others presented based on that doesn't really work, because that's no different from going "na na na na na, I can't hear you".

Satehi
March 23rd, 2011, 11:55 PM
Actually, the scene in question was translated, and the only reason Perseus won was because the shield reversed Medusa's barrier, making her unable to fight. The barrier was way overkill though, because Perseus was shitting bricks at seeing the monster.

They didn't do any real fighting, just head loping. Perseus doesn't demonstrate any superb physical ability either.

IIRC, he was forced into the task by some people at his village.

food
March 23rd, 2011, 11:59 PM
Yup, thus my point. I did not bring it up to show case Perseus. I brought it up to show what's at the Gorgon's disposal. I don't know why Perseus is so fascinating.

You can't really even draw comparisons between Perseus and Alex.

Perseus packs anti-phantasmal beast arms, Alex packs anti-army gears.


EDIT:

Perseus has to kill Gorgon because he can't keep his mouth shut. He boasted he can slay the Gorgon.
This is why Rider said Perseus is a "victorious Shinji" and she would never "get along with him".
It is a comment on Perseus' personality, a narcissistic douchebag who loves to boast.

Cruor
March 24th, 2011, 12:03 AM
Perseus used a mirror and sent her into a nightmare then cut off her 'head' with Harpe.

food
March 24th, 2011, 12:14 AM
The fight is a boatshow of the Noble Phantasms really.

Perseus was shitting bricks, but he held on due to his inflated ego and pride.