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Tangerang
September 2nd, 2018, 01:47 PM
One day, a certain message arrived at the houses located in Fuyuki. Fourteen people found a golden envelope addressed to them, promising a fun, all expenses paid vacation at a lavish mansion some ways away. As it turns out, these fourteen people had nothing better to do and so, some by themselves and some with others, they began their journey towards the address listed.

Shirou,Saber, Rin, Archer, Sakura, Rider, Kuzuki, Caster, Assassin, Ilya, Bazett, Lancer, Caren and Kotomine found themselves standing before a giant mansion that had been built deep into a mountainside. No, rather calling it giant mansion might be an understatement. It was more like a humongous compound or perhaps a private resort would be more fitting. But more importantly....

“...Some type of anti-magic field? Or perhaps territory would be a more appropriate term,” Archer muttered to himself.

“Well the invitation did say that magecraft was forbidden. I’m amazed that the host was able to enforce such a rule,” Rin shrugged.

“Now now, it makes sense doesn’t it? If magic was allowed and a fight broke out, this place would get wrecked. Besides isn’t this supposed to be a vacation? Let’s all just go in and enjoy ourselves,” Shirou said with a light hearted smile. With those words, he made his way past the entrance gate, inside the territory. He was soon followed by the rest of the group.

Only Caster and Kotomine were remained at the entrance, with a feeling of unease in their hearts.

“The person who set this up… could it be…?”

“...I wonder what.... The meaning of all this is… Well there’s no point in thinking about it.”

With minor discomfort, the two followed the rest into the mansion, and the gate closed behind them.


----------


After the group had vanished inside, seemingly out of thin air two figures appeared where they had been standing just a minute before. One was a brilliant dazzling figure clad in a golden armor, and the other was a devilish looking girl with a demonic expression on her face. The identity of the host and mastermind should be obvious.

““Kehahahahaha! Who set it up? Who else could it be? I, the Golden Witch Hero King Gilgamesh am host and master of this land. And I, the Cute Angelic Demonic Witch Devil BB am the mastermind. Look look, see? Isn’t it proof enough that only we alone can use magic inside the zone of anti-magic? As for the meaning, it’s simple, all so simple. Entertainment, a game, the most dangerous, delightful game. Which way will the roulette spin, where will the ball land? Who will die and who will prosper? The actors have assembled, the stage is set, the anticipation is killing me, but it is still not quite yet time for the curtains to rise.”

Laughing to themselves, the Witch King and Devil vanished as the air cackled with electricity and loud rumblings could be heard in the distance.


-----------


The first thing visitors did was choose their rooms. It sounds simple, but it was surprisingly difficult as there were numerous rooms, each one quite luxurious. These rooms were unlocked but in each room on the drawer contained a single key which they could use to lock and unlock the door as need be. And of course once they chose their room, they would need to unpack their clothes and other belongings.

“Hmmm… looks like a storm is coming,” muttered Rider as she glanced out the window of her room in the midst of unpacking.


----------


Everybody had agreed to meet up in the main hall once they completed their tasks. However, something was different. On the table was a golden envelope that was not there before. Inside was a strange message.

‘Greetings visitors,
Welcome to my humble abode. Please make use of it as you wish. Enjoy yourself, play, celebrate, live life to the fullest extent you can for it is finite and can often be cut short quite suddenly. Beyond that, I have recently come across a rather amazing treasure, yet it is of no use to me. So I shall share it with the victors of this game.The lower the number, greater the share.

Also forgive us for not showing ourselves for we are rather shy.’

“What a strange message,” remarked Sakura.

“More like nonsense,” retorted Rin.

Putting the odd message out of mind the group quickly forgot about it as they explored the rest of the mansion and began enjoying the various entertainments, unaware of the cruel, silent eyes watching them from the shadows, waiting for the game to begin.

They enjoyed themselves, played, celebrated, partied all evening long well into the evening. Rider helped Sakura make her way to her room, lending a shoulder for the exhausted Sakura to lean on.

As Rider closed the door, Sakura plopped onto the luxurious bed.

“Tired, Sakura?” Rider asked with a smile. The two of them had been locked in a rather intense series of tennis matches, wanting to finish the outdoor play before the storm arrived.

“Well yeah. Still though it’s been a fun day.” Sakura replied with a small laugh. “Everybody really is doing their own thing. Shirou and Archer are currently in the kitchen having their very own cooking duel with Saber, Rin, and Ilya as the judges. Lancer went out saying he wanted to try fishing in that lake near the mansion. Kotomine and Caren are playing chess in the study. Assassin said he wanted to read some of the poetry they had in the library. And I think Kuzuki and Bazett were playing darts in the lounge with Caster cheering Kuzuki on.”

“It’s really been a truly fun day.”

“...Yeah, it has. I hope this peaceful, fun atmosphere can continue-”

Rider’s words were interrupted by a sudden flash of lightning outside, the roar of thunder and the sound of pouring rain. The storm had finally arrived. And with it-

“SORRY BUT THAT’S IMPOSSIBLE, I M P O S S I B L E~”

A strange new voice echoed in Sakura’s room as the lights flickered on and off. Sakura lept off the bed and the two of them were instantly at guard.

“Sorry sorry not actually sorry at all~ It feels like it’s been an eternity but it’s finally time for this killing story to begin okay? I’m sure the spectators in the audience are tired of waiting, they’re bored out of their minds of this happy go lucky rose colored prologue. So boring I took zoned almost all of it out, has it really been an entire day like come~ on~. But that’s okay, because those of you in the audience reading and watching, it’s time for the curtains to rise, for the story to begin, so without furtherado IT’S SHOWTIME.”

A strange never before seen girl was in Sakura’s room. Although neither of the two knew who she was, she did bear a striking physical familiarity to Sakura herself. But that’s about where the similarities ended. In terms of personality and atmosphere the two couldn’t be more different. And more importantly the words she spoke sent shivers down the two’s spines.

“Killing story? What do you mean?”

The stranger turned her face towards Sakura. Her expression was filled with joy… along with an absolute cruelty and malice.

“You don’t need to know. All you need to do is lament your fortune and know that this story doesn’t need two purple haired heroines in it.”

“!? Sakura get away.”

A sinister black beam was fired at Sakura. Magic? It was impossible to use magic here. However there was no mistaking the thing before their eyes. Gritting her teeth, Rider through herself in the path of the attack.

And found her body pierced with holes. She died before she even hit the ground.

“Rider!?” Sakura screamed as she ran to the tattered corpse of her friend.

“Hmmm… Pretty foolish. All you did was delay her fate a little. Despair knowing that once judgement is handed it cannot be stopped. But still…” The devil looked at the girl who was crying hugging the body of her dead friend. She snapped her fingers and the corpse… vanished.

“What did you do!?”

“Don’t worry. All I did was… send her home. Now onto what I was doing before I was so rudely interrupted.”

A flash of darkness. The sound of a body hitting the floor. And seemingly from nowhere, joyous mocking laughter and thunderous applause as the Witch Devil took a bow and vanished.


----------


A scream echoed down the hallway. Several people heard it and began sprinting towards the sound, to see what had happened. Rin, Saber, Assassin, Kotomine, and Caren to find Ilya sitting on the floor screaming with fright. And they could clearly see why. On the door to Sakura’s room… was a strange symbol that had been painted on.



https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/fategrandorder/images/9/98/Babylonia_Title.png/revision/latest?cb=20161210141927

Panicking, Rin ran up to the door, trying to open it but it was no use. The door was locked.

“Stand aside.”

The combined force of Kotomine and Assassin’s tackle broke the door open. Before them… laying on the bed was Sakura’s corpse. It was clearly a corpse. There was no way a living body could survive with so many holes punched through it. Even if perhaps they were non fatal… the stake that had pierced her throat was clearly fatal.

Another crack of lightning and thunder.

“Sakura… no….” Rin muttered, walking up to the body. “It can’t be…”

The rest of the group there silently followed her their eyes focused on the body of someone who had been alive just a few hours ago.

Caren solemnly closed Sakura’s eyes and began reciting a prayer so that she could rest in peace. As she finished she noticed that Sakura was grabbing something in her hand.

“What could this be…” Caren reached down and grabbed it.

It turned out to be… a key. But not the key to Sakura’s room. This was the key… to Rider’s room. A chill filled the room. There was no way, it was impossible, Rider couldn’t possibly have killed Sakura. But what other reason could there be to explain how the key to her room was in Sakura’s dead hands?

Anxiety and paranoia filled the group as they rushed to Rider’s room. Arriving there, the unpleasant feeling in their stomachs only grew. On the door to Rider’s room was the same symbol that had been on Sakura’s room. The door too was locked. Using the key they obtained from Sakura’s room, they unlocked it and slowly opened the door.

On the bed… lay the corpse of Rider. It was mutilated in a similar fashion to Sakura’s body. No, perhaps it might have even been worse. However what was the same the stake lodged in her throat.

Rin snapped. Screaming, she grabbed a chair and began smashing the walls, the windows, everything she could. “COME OUT MURDERER I’LL KILL YOU. YOU INVITE US JUST TO KILL US? I’LL KILL YOU I’LL KILL YOU I’LL KILL YOU I’LL-”

She was quickly restrained by Archer and Shirou. The rest of the visitors had finally arrived. All of them stared with horror at the scene before them as the rest of the group filled them in.

A nasty suspicion crossed Kotomine’s mind. Slowly approaching the corpse of Rider, he notices that she too was gripping something in her hands. Heart sinking, he leans forward and grabs it.

It was… the key to Sakura’s room.

Silence fell on the room.


----------


“A splendid opening act. Now it is the time for the second part.” The Witch King cackled in the darkness. The roulette was spun, his victims chosen.


----------


After the murders of Sakura and Rider were discovered, a somber, depressive atmosphere came over the rest of the group. As would be expected, nobody wanted to stay in the mansion anymore. However when they tried to leave they discovered that the gate to the outside world was closed shut and quite impossible to open. Getting soaked to the bone due to the ongoing storm, the survivors had no choice but to return to the mansion. Dinner was eaten in silence, and everybody kept to themselves, seemingly lost in thought until night fell. And then slowly, one by one each person in the mansion excused themselves to their own rooms and after making sure to look the doors, retired for the night.



----------


In the darkness of her room, Saber tried to put the images of the corpses out of her mind. However, it was futile, the picture of Sakura and Rider’s dead bodies were seared across her mind. She shut her eyes as hard as she could trying to force herself to sleep when a mysterious flash of light in her room forced her to open them.

There, in front of her was… the golden king in all his glory. A sinister aura surrounded him as weapons seemingly appeared in the air. Yes, in this place the only person permitted to use magic was this man!

“Rejoice Saber, for you are the next to be chosen. However, rules exist to be broken by me. If you submit, surrender yourself to me right now, I do not mind sparing you, changing your fate of death with another.”

Saber began to leap forward, with a burning hatred in her eyes. “I’ll never surren-”

“A pity”

A stake flew through the air and pierced her throat, knocking her back onto the bed. Countless more blades skewered her body, instantly snuffing the life out of her.

Gilgamesh… stood by studying his work.

“Truly a pity. At the very least, for you, I can at least allow your corpse to retain its beauty.”

With a snap of his fingers, the countless blades that had skewered Saber’s body vanished, along with the various wounds on her body. The only thing that remained was the stake piercing her throat, a calling card to prove to the non-believers that this was the work of Gilgamesh.


----------


Similar to Saber, Tohsaka Rin was also finding it difficult to fall asleep. No, considering the identity of the first victims, perhaps she too furious to fall asleep. Constantly thinking, trying to figure out the culprit, imagining all the things she would do to the mastermind once she got her hands on him. Not once in a hundred years did she imagine that instead, the mastermind would come to her instead.

A golden flash. The golden king. Before he could even take any actions, speak any words, spurred by rage Rin had already thrown all the gems she carried at him. But without magic, they were little more than harmless rocks. The stakes thrown back… were far from harmless. Gurgling blood, Rin slumped back into her bed, her throat pierced with a stake like Saber earlier.


----------


It was the following morning. Everybody assembled in the banquet hall for breakfast. However, no matter how long everyone waited, two people failed to show up. Feeling uneasy, the people agreed to split into two groups. Shirou, Lancer, Kotomine, Caster, and Ilya would go check on Saber, and Archer, Assassin, Kuzuki, Karen, and Bazett would go check on Rin.

The unease only grew as Archer’s group arrived at Rin’s room only to find yet another strange magic circle painted on the door. Trying to open it, they found the door locked, and proceeded to break the door down. Upon entering the room, their first thought was a sigh of relief. It looked as though Rin had merely overslept, lying in her bed with the sheets over her. Archer walked over to his master to shake her awake but as he lifted the sheets what he saw drained the color from his face.

Elsewhere in Saber’s room the exact same scene was playing.

Shirou felt like his legs lost all their strength. Slowly, his legs folded out from under him.

On the bed, resting so peacefully she looked like she was asleep was Saber. The only off thing was… the stake that had pierced her throat.

This time, neither of the two corpses was holding a thing. This was the first thing people checked once they got over the shock. However, a search by each of the respective groups found the keys to the room on top of their drawers.

In other words...

The keys for both Rin and Saber’s room were found on top of their respective drawers inside their room. It was… another impossible crime.


----------


This time there was no silent atmosphere. The air was tense with raw emotion and anger. Accusations, threats, barbed words were thrown back and forth as the remaining survivors began to turn upon themselves. Others believed it was the work of the unknown host and began begging for mercy. The infighting continued throughout the entire day and by the time evening came, everybody was exhausted. Each survivor, returned to their own room, keeping a paranoid eye over their back, locked the door for all the good it would do, and went to bed.

Such foolish mongrels deserved the fate that befell them. Gilgamesh and BB laughed as they spun the roulette. Round and round they go, who will live and who will die, nobody knows…. Only once the victims have been chosen, could the game continue. The air was thick with desire and anticipation. The show must go on.

The next morning, Shirou, Kotomine, Archer, Assassin, Kuzuki and Caren met in the hall. They were all restless, none of them had gotten particularly a restful evening. However, once again no matter how long they waited the rest of the group did not show up. As one group, they went first to Ilya’s room, the closest. Yet again they found an ominous magic circle. Trying to open the door, Shirou found it locked so together they broke down the door only to discover Ilya’s corpse, a spike in her throat. In her hands held a key. The Key to Caster’s room.

Running to Caster’s room, they found the pattern yet again and the door locked. Using the key to unlock it, they found Caster’s corpse with a spike in her throat and the key to Bazett’s room.

Bazzet’s room had the pattern once again and a locked door. Using the key to unlock it, they found her corpse with a spike in her throat and the key to Lancer’s room.

Lancer’s room as they guessed also had the pattern and a locked door. Using the key to unlock it they found that he was dead with a spike in his throat and the key to Ilya’s room.


----------


“”And with that we’ve reached the end of the show.””

The king and the devil smiled as they took their bows.

““Still, even though the story has ended, the game has only just begun.””



- - - Updated - - -

So for certain reasons I tried making some kind of Fate/Umineko oneshot/game. Anyway if you’re unfamiliar with Umineko the gist of it is actually pretty simple. The goal of the players is to try to solve the various ‘mysteries’ via mundane/non-magical means. This is the ‘Blue Truth’ or basically theories that would explain the mysteries. An example would be like ‘An extra person X secretly followed the rest of the group into the mansion and was responsible for the murders’ This will be responded to with a statement known as the ‘Red Truth’. Think of Red Truths as statements of absolute truth. For example: ‘From the beginning of the arrival to the time of the discovery of the final murder, only the fourteen visitors had entered the mansion at any point.’ This denies the Blue Truth, shutting it down and forces the player side to come up with another Blue Truth.

Assuming enough people respond, I’m going to set a tentative twelve day time limit on solving this game. On the first three days I will respond the the four most popular Blue Truths. The next three days I will respond to the five most popular Blue Truths, then six most popular Blue Truths and seven most popular Blue Truths for each of the final three days. This gives a potential of sixty six blue truths to use to pierce this mystery. (If not enough people respond I’ll just wing it or something, and if nobody is interested I guess that’s that XD)

(Thanks to Satehi for helping me test this gameboard)




Only fourteen humans exist within this mansion/compound. A fifteen person does not exist.

The only entrances into and out of the room is either via the door or the windows. No hidden passages exist in the guestrooms.

Of course, as long as the entrances are closed it is impossible for objects to pass into or out of the room.

Each room only has one key. This is the only key that can open that room. No copies of any keys exist. No master keys exist.

The only way to lock the doors from the outside is with the usage of their keys. No other method exists to lock the door from the outside.

Servants and Heroic Spirits are considered as humans.

The windows in the rooms were closed when the Survivors first enter each room. And the same rule applies for doors in that objects can't pass through as long as they are closed.

​There are no mechanisms or traps that exist in the guest rooms that are capable of murder.

Of course one can lock the doors from inside the room without the usage of a key.

The same applies to the windows! In fact, they can only be locked from the inside.

Apart from the windows that Rin destroyed, no other windows have been destroyed at any point. Furthermore, all the windows in Rider's room were locked as well as closed when they first entered it, prior to Rin destroying the windows. In other words it is not possible for the killer to have locked the window from the outside of the room.

It is only possible to enter or exit a window when it is open. A window can only be open when it's unlocked.

I'll also summarize an extra thing. Once a room is 'locked', the only ones capable of unlocking it are living humans already inside the room, or someone who possess the key to that specific room.

No room doors possess an auto-lock feature. In other words, doors can only be locked or unlocked when they are closed. Or to get more to the point, it's impossible to lock the door and then close it!

Once a person has locked themselves in their room, it is not possible for someone outside the room to enter the room unless they possess a room key or break the door down. However, once a door has been broken door it is permanently destroyed with no way to repair it. It is also not possible to hide this destruction.

All class skills and personal skills fall under the domain of magic. In other words Lancer does not posses battle continuation.

The windows in the second and third round victim's rooms were both closed and locked.

Ventilation ducts do not count as secret passages. The methods with which to enter a room is via the doors or windows. No other passage X exists.

The key Sakura was holding was certainly Rider's key. Furthermore I'll guarantee it. The key found in Rin's room is the key to Rin's room. The key found in Saber's room is the key the Saber's room. and the Key found in Ilya's room is the key to Caster's room.

Other than the windows that Rin destroyed, none of the other windows have been destroyed. The window that Rin destroyed was only destroyed after the crime scene and key had been discovered. In fact, no object passed through the window that Rin destroyed after she destroyed it.

All wounds are fatal wounds. No nonfatal wounds were inflicted at any point during the game.

Acknowledged. No living human or corpse can be hidden in a room and remain undiscovered by living humans in that room.

Acknowledged. Once summon suffers a fatal wound, any followup action whatsoever is impossible. This includes locking or unlocking any doors or windows.

Acknowledged. Ilya did not aid the first twilight either intentionally or accidentally.

I feel like this is covered by the first truth but sure. Acknowledged. A person or corpse cannot remain hidden in any room when survivors investigate it.


Both the corpses of Sakura and Rider were holding the room keys in their hands when the survivors opened the door.

Sakura and Rider both had their keys when they were attacked.

Prior to entry into both Sakura and Rider's room, those rooms contained no living humans.

Sakura had Sakura's key at the time of her murder, and Rider had Rider's key at the time of her murder. Of course, another key word here is murder. In other words, this was a homicide and not a suicide!

Neither Sakura or Rider were accomplices in their own murders.

"The windows in both Rider and Sakura's room were closed and locked when their deaths were discovered."

The room Sakura was discovered in was her true guestroom. Ilya was not complicit in the murders of the first twilight.

No hidden compartments or hiding places exist in any of the rooms. Furthermore, for the first twilight, once the survivors exited Sakura's room to head to Rider's room, not a single living person entered or exited Sakura's room.

Acknowledged. At the time of death, Sakura possessed the key to her own room, and Rider possessed the key to her own room.



Rin and Saber were unharmed when they went to their rooms for the night and locked the door.

The last people to touch keys found on the drawers were Rin and Saber respectively! In other words, from the time they entered their room to the time to murder was discovered, nobody else was able to touched those keys!

I'll slice this apart with the red! The moment the door to each room was opened, both Rin and Saber were already dead! In other words it is impossible for Archer and Shirou to murder them under the guise of waking them up. Furthermore there was no shady drugs used in the "cooking contest" used between Shirou and Archer.

Nobody in the third round of locked rooms locked their doors after suffering a fatal wound. After all once a fatal wound is inflicted, their life is extinguished. There is no time to perform such complex actions as fiddling with the door.

All four corpses in the third round were killed by another person. There were no suicides and definitely four kills.

Each of the murder victims who fell on the third twilight had the key to the next room in their possession.

Ilya's room was locked before it was opened in the morning.

Each of the victims had the key to the next room in their possession at the time their bodies were discovered.

Each of the victims' rooms were locked before they were opened in the morning.

RoydGolden
September 2nd, 2018, 02:28 PM
Hmm, interesting. Gilgamesh is grotesquely OOC in this (he's not the type to kill indiscriminately and I doubt he'd ever willingly cooperate with someone like BB), but given the setup I presume that's intentional.

Also, how is a detective mystery supposed to work when you show us the murderers right off the bat? Through third-person narration too, so you can't even pull any unreliable narrator shenanigans to argue what the characters saw wasn't what actually happened. I'm not super familiar with Umineko, but from what I understand the whole gameboard conceit was a way to resolve that by distancing the supernatural stuff on-screen from what "really" happened.

As far as I can see there's nothing like that here, so I'm not entirely sure how this is supposed to work. Are we just supposed to accept that any scene of magic/murders is in-universe theorizing rather than literally true?

Tobias
September 2nd, 2018, 02:33 PM
Remember that time gil came up with a plan to indiscriminately kill like six billion people

pepperidge farm remembers

RoydGolden
September 2nd, 2018, 02:41 PM
Remember that time gil came up with a plan to indiscriminately kill like six billion people

pepperidge farm remembers

Technically that wasn't killing indiscriminately, since the whole point was that the people strong enough to survive Angra Mainyu's curse would be worthy of being ruled by him. But I get your point.

mAc Chaos
September 3rd, 2018, 12:39 AM
Hmm, interesting. Gilgamesh is grotesquely OOC in this (he's not the type to kill indiscriminately and I doubt he'd ever willingly cooperate with someone like BB), but given the setup I presume that's intentional.

Also, how is a detective mystery supposed to work when you show us the murderers right off the bat? Through third-person narration too, so you can't even pull any unreliable narrator shenanigans to argue what the characters saw wasn't what actually happened. I'm not super familiar with Umineko, but from what I understand the whole gameboard conceit was a way to resolve that by distancing the supernatural stuff on-screen from what "really" happened.

As far as I can see there's nothing like that here, so I'm not entirely sure how this is supposed to work. Are we just supposed to accept that any scene of magic/murders is in-universe theorizing rather than literally true?
The way it works in Umineko is like this. Witches get power from belief. Umineko is a story about a witch that creates an impossible murder scenario that can only be done via supernatural means that then proves that witches are real because it's the only explanation for what happened. The other characters try to fight her by proving that the murder could have been done through mundane means, and thus it is no longer magic. The witch tries to counter their theories and shoot them down, and they get into logic battles like an Ace Attorney or Dangan Ronpa game.

They do this by constructing theories on what happened, which when presented with enough evidence become "blue truths," essentially valid theories. Science in general is the practice of creating blue truths, by this definition. Blue truths can get countered by Red Truths, which are statements from the actual witch or "gamemaster" that knows all of the behind-the-scenes facts. Red Truths, being basically "word of god," are uncontestable, but the very fact that you get an actual true piece of information to work with can help you assemble the real situation. The more Red Truths you can get, the less wiggle room the witch has to weasel out of the scenario.

After all, when everything is shrouded in mystery, like a shrodingers cat situation, the murder could have been done by any means. But the more you begin to pin down facts about it and define it, the less variable it can be, and you can show what "really happened."

Was what we saw in the narration what really happened? Only if magic is real... but that's only if there's no other way to explain it...

mAc Chaos
September 3rd, 2018, 12:48 AM
Anyway, I'm game for playing.

Question, tang: do we get to ask clarifying questions or do we just have to shoot for the moon with our theories and see what Red Truth we can squeeze out?

Tangerang
September 3rd, 2018, 12:52 AM
Well if there was a lot of people i would say like feel free to ask for clarifying reds (repeat it etc) if you wanted but i would only be required to respond to the blue truths per day. As it currently stands however i think I'll just set it as a 1v1 traditional umineko showdown and ppl can msg me or post here and we'll see if we can figure out a good time for the duel

RoydGolden
September 3rd, 2018, 12:55 AM
The way it works in Umineko is like this. Witches get power from belief. Umineko is a story about a witch that creates an impossible murder scenario that can only be done via supernatural means that then proves that witches are real because it's the only explanation for what happened. The other characters try to fight her by proving that the murder could have been done through mundane means, and thus it is no longer magic. The witch tries to counter their theories and shoot them down, and they get into logic battles like an Ace Attorney or Dangan Ronpa game.

They do this by constructing theories on what happened, which when presented with enough evidence become "blue truths," essentially valid theories. Science in general is the practice of creating blue truths, by this definition. Blue truths can get countered by Red Truths, which are statements from the actual witch or "gamemaster" that knows all of the behind-the-scenes facts. Red Truths, being basically "word of god," are uncontestable, but the very fact that you get an actual true piece of information to work with can help you assemble the real situation. The more Red Truths you can get, the less wiggle room the witch has to weasel out of the scenario.

After all, when everything is shrouded in mystery, like a shrodingers cat situation, the murder could have been done by any means. But the more you begin to pin down facts about it and define it, the less variable it can be, and you can show what "really happened."

Was what we saw in the narration what really happened? Only if magic is real... but that's only if there's no other way to explain it...

Ah, I get it now. Thanks for clarifying, MaC. I still think things are moving a bit too fast (after all, Umineko didn't show any unambiguous supernatural events from a viewpoint character's perspective until the end of the first twilight), but that's probably inevitable for a oneshot. In that case, I'll be signing up as well.

fsnfan
September 3rd, 2018, 10:56 AM
Err... Do we do it like this?

An extra person X was on the island and was responsible for the murders. Whether that person arrived before or after the rest of the group at the mansion is inconsequential.

Bloble
September 3rd, 2018, 11:49 AM
Oh boy it's been a while since Umineko. Well, let's try it like this. First lets' get the the usual "what ifs" out of the way. Please excuse, I may have forgotten the blue truth etiquette somewhat.

The doors may not have been the only ways into the locked rooms; the windows could have served as ways to get in and out. There may also be secret passages into rooms that accomplish this same function.

The opening of the doors is wide enough that a key could conceivably be slid underneath. With some string hooked up to a dead person's hand, this allows for keys to be planted on corpses from outside the locked rooms.

The victims were killed from outside the locked doors, perhaps through a keyhole or the opening under the door.

There exists a master key that can open and lock any door. The killer possesses this key and used it to fabricate the puzzles.

The locking mechanisms are such that doors can be locked whilst ajar, and the locking will only take place after the door has been closed. Therefore, the assailant(s) could have just moved the corpses to their respective rooms, planted the keys on their bodies, and closed the locked doors afterwards to simulate a locked room.

And now actual propositions:

There is no proof that Rin and Saber were killed instantly. Therefore, they could've been fatally wounded with the doors open, retreated into their respective rooms, locked their doors to prevent the assailant from pursuing, and subsequently died. Thus, their murders are not impossible.

In regards to Sakura and Rider's murders, it was Caren who first pointed out that the key to Rider's room in Sakura's hands. In fact, Caren had the key on her person and merely planted it on Sakura's body under the guise of a prayer and examination.

The above truth also applies for Kotomine and the key to Sakura's room on Rider's body. Neither murder is therefore impossible.

- - - Updated - - -

The last 4 person locked room puzzle and the first 2 person puzzle are very similar, so solving one probably solves the others. I suspect Battle Continuation may also be involved.

- - - Updated - - -

Oh right, repeat it.

"Repeat it in red: The individual room keys are the only keys that can lock and unlock their respective doors! No other way to unlock or lock those doors exists!"

Tangerang
September 3rd, 2018, 12:39 PM
Hmmm... I'll wait a bit before responding with the Red Truth in case a few more Blue Truths come up but I'll switch up the rules a little. Instead of only replying to the 4 most popular Blue Truths each day, I'll reply to two Blue Truths per person per day. That should increase the number of blue truths while keeping things manageable, and maybe encourage some teamplay.

RoydGolden
September 3rd, 2018, 04:24 PM
Let's get an obvious possibility out of the way first.

A fifteenth inhabitant had been hiding in the mansion since before the protagonists arrived and was responsible for the murders.

Tangerang
September 3rd, 2018, 07:47 PM
Well okay, I've waited long enough, that seems to be all there will be for today.

https://i.imgur.com/Q1kXwAG.png

With that out of the way, let's officially begin the second half this game.

Now first thing's first. Here's a red truth that should take care of those pesky '15th person x' blue truths.

Only fourteen humans exist within this mansion/compound. A fifteen person does not exist.

Next I know I said only two blue truths for person, but I'll let it slide for this first day. Just for you.

The only entrances into and out of the room is either via the door or the windows. No hidden passages exist in the guestrooms.

Of course, as long as the entrances are closed it is impossible for objects to pass into or out of the room.

Each room only has one key. This is the only key that can open that room. No copies of any keys exist. No master keys exist.

Now, onto your 'actual propositions', so to speak.

Rin and Saber were unharmed when they went to their rooms for the night and locked the door.

Both the corpses of Sakura and Rider were holding the room keys in their hands when the survivors opened the door.

And for your last request, I feel like some of the previous red truths have covered it but consider this an extra freebie from me.

The only way to lock the doors from the outside is with the usage of their keys. No other method exists to lock the door from the outside.

RoydGolden
September 4th, 2018, 01:06 AM
Regarding the first red truth, does a Heroic Spirit count as a human?

- - - Updated - - -

To put it in blue- The definition of 'human' includes only living humans and not Heroic Spirits. Thus, there still could've been an additional Heroic Spirit in the mansion that committed the murders.

Tangerang
September 4th, 2018, 02:34 AM
Here's another freebie so that won't count towards your blue truth limit for the day.

Servants and Heroic Spirits are considered as humans.

RoydGolden
September 4th, 2018, 01:27 PM
Another obvious possibility that will almost certainly be shot down- The murderer entered and exited the guestrooms through the windows, bypassing the locked doors.

Bloble
September 4th, 2018, 09:50 PM
1. This'll likely be another formality, but we've got time and it's best to get all the angles down first: "The murders were carried out not by a culprit, but by a mechanism or trap hidden in the rooms."

2. Your red truth only mentioned locking a door from the outside. Therefore: "It's possible to lock and unlock doors from inside the rooms without the use of a key."

SpoonyViking
September 4th, 2018, 10:13 PM
Oh, I'm game!
Question: one thing which hamstrings Battler in "Umineko" is that he wants to disprove Beatrice's magic while also proving every one of his family and the servants is innocent. Are we also similarly impaired?

Anyway, let me try my two blue truths for today:

Sakura was wrong about the location of the fourteen visitors.

Neither Sakura nor Rider were in possession of their room keys as they were being attacked.

RoydGolden
September 4th, 2018, 10:32 PM
1. This'll likely be another formality, but we've got time and it's best to get all the angles down first: "The murders were carried out not by a culprit, but by a mechanism or trap hidden in the rooms."

Good one. I was thinking of bringing up the same thing, since I remember a setup like that in the murder mystery episode of Bungou Stray Dogs.

Tangerang
September 5th, 2018, 12:13 AM
https://i.imgur.com/UuaF6sG.png

Another day, another set of truths to cut down. Are you all getting warmed up still? That's fine, just take it nice and slow, you still have plenty of time after all...

The windows in the rooms were closed when the Survivors first enter each room. And the same rule applies for doors in that objects can't pass through as long as they are closed.

Next,

​There are no mechanisms or traps that exist in the guest rooms that are capable of murder.

Your next blue truth isn't really a complete one since it's not really explicitly explaining one of the closed room murder mysteries but I understand what you meant. In that case I'll acknowledge it

Of course one can lock the doors from inside the room without the usage of a key.

And here's a freebie

The same applies to the windows! In fact, they can only be locked from the inside.

And then there were two. They both have the same issue in that they're not really complete blue truths either... Hmm, how to cut these down... Let's see... Let's start with this.

Sakura and Rider both had their keys when they were attacked.

As for the final one, I won't respond to yet. I don't see how it answers any of the closed room murder mysteries. Furthermore, how can Sakura know? She's just a powerless human not even currently capable of magecraft, not some sort of all-seeing goddess. She can only say what she believes to be true, but belief isn't enough for a red truth. For now.

RoydGolden
September 5th, 2018, 11:44 AM
The murderer opened the windows from outside in some fashion, possibly by slicing the frame with a laser or incredibly fine blade and fitting them back on afterwards.

Bloble
September 5th, 2018, 07:30 PM
1. It was mentioned that the windows were closed when the survivors entered the rooms, but not that the windows were locked. Specifically, when Rin destroyed the window to Rider's room in her rage, it became impossible to know whether that window was locked or not. Therefore, Rider's room was not a locked room because the window was unlocked, making it possible for a killer to leave the room without unlocking the door.

2. Due to his resilience and Battle Continuation, it wouldn't be unusual for Lancer to persist after a fatal wound. So repeat it in red, if you can: "All the victims of the third round of locked room murders died instantly."

Tangerang
September 6th, 2018, 01:05 AM
https://i.imgur.com/Bjg7PFX.png

Some enjoyable blue truths today, to be countered by fairly simple red truths, since that's all it will take.

Apart from the windows that Rin destroyed, no other windows have been destroyed at any point. Furthermore, all the windows in Rider's room were locked as well as closed when they first entered it, prior to Rin destroying the windows. In other words it is not possible for the killer to have locked the window from the outside of the room.

In addition, All class skills and personal skills fall under the domain of magic. In other words Lancer does not posses battle continuation.

Well, I know what you're trying to get at with that. So let me cut that train of thought prematurely.

Nobody in the third round of locked rooms locked their doors after suffering a fatal wound. After all once a fatal wound is inflicted, their life is extinguished. There is no time to perform such complex actions as fiddling with the door.

RoydGolden
September 6th, 2018, 11:21 AM
Still doesn't quite seem to refute my blue truth, which was that the murderer might've somehow opened a window without unlocking it. So repeat it in red- The only way to enter or exit through a window is by unlocking it!

Bloble
September 6th, 2018, 10:51 PM
Okay, it's getting interesting now. In that case... here's a theory.

1. Sakura and Rider's murderers, of which there were two, remained in their victims' rooms after killing their victims and locking the doors and windows. Whether the keys were switched before or after is irrelevant, as is where and when Rider and Sakura actually died, since their bodies could have been moved at any time prior to the doors and windows being locked. The doors were locked from the inside without the use of the keys. The murderers did not leave their victims' rooms until the doors were broken open. They merely hid from the sight of the investigators and snuck out afterwards, creating the illusion of an impossible locked room.

2. In the second round, the keys were not in the rooms when they were first opened. Since the first thing the groups focused on was the bodies of Rin and Saber, the murderers took the opportunity to plant the victims' respective keys, which had been taken and used to lock their doors after the murders, on their respective drawers, creating the illusion of a closed room.

Tangerang
September 7th, 2018, 01:00 AM
https://i.imgur.com/hVPjId2.png

Tick tock tick tock tick tock.

Time to resume this game. First thing's first. Not only will I repeat that, I'll add a bonus for you.

It is only possible to enter or exit a window when it is open. A window can only be open when it's unlocked.

Next thing's next.

Prior to entry into both Sakura and Rider's room, those rooms contained no living humans.

The last people to touch keys found on the drawers were Rin and Saber respectively! In other words, from the time they entered their room to the time to murder was discovered, nobody else was able to touched those keys!

It's time to pick up the pace. Everybody's blue truth limit has been increased from 2 per day to 3 per day. Make the most of it.

Bloble
September 8th, 2018, 12:53 AM
1. In the third round, one of the corpses was that of a murderer. The killer acquired several keys, used them to unlock doors as needed, and then sequentially killed victims one by one, planting the keys of the preceding victim on their body after using them to lock the door. Afterwards, the killer entered their own room and locked the door, either feigning death or committing suicide.

For example, if Lancer were the killer in round 3, he would've killed Bazett and left his key on her person. He'd then use Bazett's key to lock her room and plant it on Caster's body, continuing until only Ilya's key was left in his possession. He could then return to his own room, lock it from the inside, and then either feign death or kill himself, completing the impossible room circle. After all, since it wasn't stated that every single corpse was the result of a "murder", suicide or accident are acceptable alternatives.

2. Your truths about the windows have been a bit spotty,. So it may well be time to patch that hole: The windows in the second and third round victims' rooms were not proven to be locked. Therefore, the murderer could have used them to enter and exit the rooms.

Tangerang
September 8th, 2018, 04:15 AM
https://i.imgur.com/AaIpnbe.png

Another day, another truth~

All four corpses in the third round were killed by another person. There were no suicides and definitely four kills.

The windows in the second and third round victim's rooms were both closed and locked.

In other words, it's impossible to get in and out via that entry. Come on, there's no way it would have been that easy, right~

ItsaRandomUsername
September 11th, 2018, 11:10 AM
All locked doors remained locked. All locked windows remained locked. The definition of 'remained locked,' as it applies to this particular gameboard, is as follows: once in a state of 'being locked,' none but the room's true occupant, who is also living human, is capable of unlocking them, which they do according to their own will. Therefore, I say that none of the murders actually are locked-room cases at all; they only appear that way from the way the narrative has been presented to us!


The killer didn't have a need to force their way into any room--the killer was willingingly let inside. Once inside the victim's room, the killer took advantage of the opening to murder the victim. In the first round of closed rooms, the killer then took the key, and with it pocketed away went to the next victim's room. To give the illusion of a closed room, the killer deposited the key on the corpse, went to the door, which can lock from the inside without use of a key, locked it before they then closed the door, and closed the door behind them--locking themselves out of the room, and giving themselves a viable alibi.


Also, I'll use my last Blue Truth of the round to cover what should have been an obvious base to cover: There is more than one murderer, or the murderer has an accomplice who is just as culpable and a key component to the crimes that occurred in the mansion.


Repeat it in red, if you can: "It is not possible to force one's way into a guest room as long as a living human has locked themselves inside of the room."


Please feel free to cut down as many of these with Red Truth as you see fit. I hope this sacrificial offering is to your liking.

Bloble
September 11th, 2018, 06:16 PM
1. "Rin and Saber went to their rooms unharmed, locked the doors, and placed their respective keys on their bedside drawers. Then they went to sleep. They did not wake the next morning. They were murdered by Archer and Shirou, respectively, in the moment of the "discovery" of their murders. They looked like they were sleeping because they were sleeping, likely kept in a coma-like stupor by drugs mixed into the meals created by and served to them by the Emiyas that very same day as part of their "cooking contest", for which Rin and Saber were judges. As they slept, Archer and Shirou stabbed into Rin and Saber's throats with a pair of stakes under the guise of waking them up, committing murder in plain sight. Thus, because Rin and Saber died only after their doors were broken down, there are no locked rooms in the second round!"

Tangerang
September 12th, 2018, 01:38 AM
A brief break but it seems like there's more Blue Truths to be had at last.

https://i.imgur.com/u5Q5uIc.png

What an interesting time it is now...

Let's resume.


All locked doors remained locked. All locked windows remained locked. The definition of 'remained locked,' as it applies to this particular gameboard, is as follows: once in a state of 'being locked,' none but the room's true occupant, who is also living human, is capable of unlocking them, which they do according to their own will. Therefore, I say that none of the murders actually are locked-room cases at all; they only appear that way from the way the narrative has been presented to us!

Ineffective blue truth. This is more defining the definitions and as such I'll respond as such.


The only entrances into and out of the room is either via the door or the windows. No hidden passages exist in the guestrooms.

Of course, as long as the entrances are closed it is impossible for objects to pass into or out of the room.

Each room only has one key. This is the only key that can open that room. No copies of any keys exist. No master keys exist.

The only way to lock the doors from the outside is with the usage of their keys. No other method exists to lock the door from the outside.

Of course one can lock the doors from inside the room without the usage of a key.

The same applies to the windows! In fact, they can only be locked from the inside.

I'll also summarize an extra thing. Once a room is 'locked', the only ones capable of unlocking it are living humans already inside the room, or someone who possess the key to that specific room.


The killer didn't have a need to force their way into any room--the killer was willingingly let inside. Once inside the victim's room, the killer took advantage of the opening to murder the victim. In the first round of closed rooms, the killer then took the key, and with it pocketed away went to the next victim's room. To give the illusion of a closed room, the killer deposited the key on the corpse, went to the door, which can lock from the inside without use of a key, locked it before they then closed the door, and closed the door behind them--locking themselves out of the room, and giving themselves a viable alibi.

No room doors possess an auto-lock feature. In other words, doors can only be locked or unlocked when they are closed. Or to get more to the point, it's impossible to lock the door and then close it!


There is more than one murderer, or the murderer has an accomplice who is just as culpable and a key component to the crimes that occurred in the mansion.

I refuse to respond to this. Whether there's only one murderer or a dozen, it doesn't matter if it doesn't explain how the crime was committed. If you can think of a theory involving multiple murderers I'll reply.

I will respond your request for that red truth though.

Once a person has locked themselves in their room, it is not possible for someone outside the room to enter the room unless they possess a room key or break the door down. However, once a door has been broken door it is permanently destroyed with no way to repair it. It is also not possible to hide this destruction.


"Rin and Saber went to their rooms unharmed, locked the doors, and placed their respective keys on their bedside drawers. Then they went to sleep. They did not wake the next morning. They were murdered by Archer and Shirou, respectively, in the moment of the "discovery" of their murders. They looked like they were sleeping because they were sleeping, likely kept in a coma-like stupor by drugs mixed into the meals created by and served to them by the Emiyas that very same day as part of their "cooking contest", for which Rin and Saber were judges. As they slept, Archer and Shirou stabbed into Rin and Saber's throats with a pair of stakes under the guise of waking them up, committing murder in plain sight. Thus, because Rin and Saber died only after their doors were broken down, there are no locked rooms in the second round!"

I'll slice this apart with the red! The moment the door to each room was opened, both Rin and Saber were already dead! In other words it is impossible for Archer and Shirou to murder them under the guise of waking them up. Furthermore there was no shady drugs used in the "cooking contest" used between Shirou and Archer.

Having reached this point, the number of blue truths you can use per day has increased to four. Do your best~

Also a collection of all red truths used so far will be added to the opening post.

mAc Chaos
September 12th, 2018, 01:43 AM
http://images.sanctuary-inc.net/iawait.gif

Clear the way. The cavalry has arrived.

No review of an investigation is complete without a look at the facts. For now, let's focus only on Rider and Sakura's murder, to keep things manageable. We know that:

Both doors to their rooms were locked.
The windows were locked.
Each key was found with the other person.
They had those other keys during the discovery of the murders; they weren't planted during it.
You can lock the doors from the inside without a key.
You can lock the doors from the outside only with the key.
You can only lock windows from the inside.
Sakura and Rider both had "their keys" when attacked.
Nobody was hiding in their rooms during discovery.

Some of these "facts" are quite ambiguous.

We are told that Sakura and Rider had "their" keys when attacked. Does that mean each one had their OWN key, or that the two keys were between them collectively? Could it be possible the keys were already swapped...?

I've been wracking my brain to figure out how somebody could kill Sakura or Rider, then get out of their room and lock it behind them, while placing the key to the other person's room with the corpse and then doing the same at the second victim's room.

But... if the keys could have been swapped around, a possibility opens up... involving their own suicides.

Let us suppose a theory:
> Rider and Sakura are in Sakura's room.
> Sakura kills herself.
> Rider takes Sakura's key, and leaves her own key with Sakura.
> Rider locks Sakura's room from outside with Sakura's key.
> Rider goes to her own room, and locks the door from the inside.
> Rider kills herself, possessing Sakura's key.

This way, all the conditions are fulfilled: Sakura is dead with Rider's key and the door locked, and Rider is dead with Sakura's key and the door locked.

Let's see if this gap in the red truth we've been given bears any fruit.

Say it in red! "Sakura had Sakura's key at the time of Sakura's murder, and Rider had Rider's key at the time of Rider's murder."

Tangerang
September 12th, 2018, 02:02 AM
Not a bad theory. But also not. quite. good. enough.

I'll repeat it in red for you. I'll even add some extra free of charge~

Sakura had Sakura's key at the time of her murder, and Rider had Rider's key at the time of her murder. Of course, another key word here is murder. In other words, this was a homicide and not a suicide!

mAc Chaos
September 12th, 2018, 02:04 AM
...Tch, well played... it looks like my time here won't be wasted, after all.

That still leaves the door open for the victims to have played a part in their deaths.

Say it in red! "Neither Sakura or Rider were accomplices in the homicides."

Tangerang
September 12th, 2018, 02:12 AM
Neither Sakura or Rider were accomplices in their own murders.

That should cover it.

mAc Chaos
September 12th, 2018, 02:17 AM
I see, so we have a good old fashioned killer on our hands.

Next!

The victims didn't help commit the crime. But that doesn't mean the killer didn't have help.

Say it in red! "There was only one culprit involved in their murders; no accomplices."

After this, we'll have something to work with.

Tangerang
September 12th, 2018, 02:23 AM
...
...
...
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/umineko/images/c/c3/Ber_a21_shian1.png/revision/latest?cb=20130925011040

I refuse. Create a blue truth if you want a response.

mAc Chaos
September 12th, 2018, 02:48 AM
I'm afraid I'll have to leave you waiting for a little bit.

You told us that the windows in Rider's room were locked, but nothing about Sakura's. That would be pretty useful information, don't you think?

Say it in red! "The windows in both Rider and Sakura's room were closed and locked when their deaths were discovered."

Tangerang
September 12th, 2018, 02:49 PM
Hmm... In order to try picking up the pace a bit I'll try responding a few times throughout the day rather than one big time at the end, so people can build off their blue truths. The daily limit remains though. With that said...

Sure I'll repeat that.

"The windows in both Rider and Sakura's room were closed and locked when their deaths were discovered."

You didn't really think it would be that easy did you

ItsaRandomUsername
September 13th, 2018, 12:55 AM
Repeat it in red: "Ventilation ducts do not count as secret passages."

Tangerang
September 13th, 2018, 01:11 AM
Ventilation ducts do not count as secret passages. The methods with which to enter a room is via the doors or windows. No other passage X exists.

ItsaRandomUsername
September 13th, 2018, 01:19 AM
Thanks, that helps out.

Bloble
September 13th, 2018, 08:12 PM
Enough of this farce. (https://youtu.be/ENL0nPskSao)

Your so-called truths are insulting, witch. Shoddy, rife with holes, and all too soft. But I can't be hard on you; after all, your red is only as cruel as our blue, and our strikes thus far have been hopelessly amateur.

So enough is enough. I'm awake now, so this sub-par phrasing won't pass any longer. Those holes in your words - fill them up with red this instant, or die.

1. The red truth about the keys Sakura and Rin were holding is incomplete, only mentioning "the room keys". Therefore, I propose: "The keys Sakura and Rider were holding when their bodies were discovered were not in fact each other's. When Sakura's body was discovered, it was holding someone else's room keys instead, and in the time between the discovery of Sakura's body and Rider's key being used to unlock Rider's door, someone swapped it for the key Sakura had actually been holding. This enables Rider's key to have been used to kill Sakura, and vice versa, without creating a closed room."

2. After all, it would be weird if people could instantly recognize the each other's room keys on sight, wouldn't it? Unless they had some sort of identifier, or name tag. In fact, any identifier used could quite easily be replicated or falsified with even mundane means. In fact, I'll even go so far as to propose it as a truth: "It is possible to falsify the appearance of room keys, and it is possible for people to mistake one key for another, so the only ways to confirm which key belongs to which door are to use that key to unlock that door, eliminate all the other possible keys by process of elimination, or to state it in red. In this manner, any key that hasn't been confirmed as belonging to a room in red cannot be guaranteed to be what it appears as, allowing it to exist outside the locked rooms and freely unlock and lock the aforementioned doors. Therefore, since they weren't used to unlock any doors, one cannot guarantee that Sakura's key in the first round, Rin and Saber's keys in the second round, and Ilya's key in the third round are what they were purported to be."

3. Your truth about door destruction is also far too short. Expand it to include windows, or I'll propose that "It is possible to damage or destroy windows, and hide or repair that destruction. In fact, the killer used this technique to plant a key in the room of a murder victim, thus falsifying a locked room."

4. As for the second night... my blue won't die so easily. I can amend it in an instant. Strike to behead, or don't strike at all! "Saber and Rin may have not been living when their bodies were discovered in the morning, but their method of death hasn't been specified. They could have been poisoned during that night's dinner and died in their sleep without anyone intruding into their rooms. Of course, there are dozens of ways to poison someone, with shady drugs being the least of them. Shirou and Archer, then, could have still planted the stakes in the corpses' throats to misdirect the investigation!"

5. You thought I was done? Nope, one more. "Even a nonfatal wound, if left untreated, can result in death. Therefore, if someone were locked in their room with a killer waiting outside, they would have no recourse but to bleed to death slowly. Such a method could be used to murder someone without causing a fatal wound. Furthermore, your truth about fatal wounds only applies to the third round, so Sakura and Rider, after swapping keys and while wounded, could have suffered fatal wounds, locked their doors, and died."

This is just the beginning. Once you patch up that shoddy truth of yours, I'll face you seriously.

Tangerang
September 14th, 2018, 01:50 AM
https://i.imgur.com/A8pNAia.png

Looks like we're past the halfway point, what do we have today-


"Saber and Rin may have not been living when their bodies were discovered in the morning, but their method of death hasn't been specified. They could have been poisoned during that night's dinner and died in their sleep without anyone intruding into their rooms. Of course, there are dozens of ways to poison someone, with shady drugs being the least of them. Shirou and Archer, then, could have still planted the stakes in the corpses' throats to misdirect the investigation!"



https://www.shareicon.net/data/256x256/2016/06/15/781471_lock_512x512.png

-tch. It is effective. No, this is fine, if it was one-sided the entire way until time ran out it wouldn't be interesting. I still have some more tricks up my sleeve.


"The keys Sakura and Rider were holding when their bodies were discovered were not in fact each other's. When Sakura's body was discovered, it was holding someone else's room keys instead, and in the time between the discovery of Sakura's body and Rider's key being used to unlock Rider's door, someone swapped it for the key Sakura had actually been holding. This enables Rider's key to have been used to kill Sakura, and vice versa, without creating a closed room."

"It is possible to falsify the appearance of room keys, and it is possible for people to mistake one key for another, so the only ways to confirm which key belongs to which door are to use that key to unlock that door, eliminate all the other possible keys by process of elimination, or to state it in red. In this manner, any key that hasn't been confirmed as belonging to a room in red cannot be guaranteed to be what it appears as, allowing it to exist outside the locked rooms and freely unlock and lock the aforementioned doors. Therefore, since they weren't used to unlock any doors, one cannot guarantee that Sakura's key in the first round, Rin and Saber's keys in the second round, and Ilya's key in the third round are what they were purported to be."

I'll slice apart both of these at once.

The key Sakura was holding was certainly Rider's key. Furthermore I'll guarantee it. The key found in Rin's room is the key to Rin's room. The key found in Saber's room is the key the Saber's room. and the Key found in Ilya's room is the key to Caster's room.


"It is possible to damage or destroy windows, and hide or repair that destruction. In fact, the killer used this technique to plant a key in the room of a murder victim, thus falsifying a locked room."

Other than the windows that Rin destroyed, none of the other windows have been destroyed. The window that Rin destroyed was only destroyed after the crime scene and key had been discovered. In fact, no object passed through the window that Rin destroyed after she destroyed it.


"Even a nonfatal wound, if left untreated, can result in death. Therefore, if someone were locked in their room with a killer waiting outside, they would have no recourse but to bleed to death slowly. Such a method could be used to murder someone without causing a fatal wound. Furthermore, your truth about fatal wounds only applies to the third round, so Sakura and Rider, after swapping keys and while wounded, could have suffered fatal wounds, locked their doors, and died."

All wounds are fatal wounds. No nonfatal wounds were inflicted at any point during the game.

ItsaRandomUsername
September 15th, 2018, 11:05 PM
The First Twilight cannot be a locked room because Sakura's corpse was not actually discovered in her true guestroom. The discoverer who came across the ominous symbol on the door to "Sakura's room," Illyasviel von Einzbern, was actually an accomplice who set up the scenario, and the room was never actually Sakura's. That symbol, and Illya's ruse, was meant to be a sleight of hand, meant to distract--like a method used by magicians, not some Golden Witch Hero King, or Cute Angelic Demonic Witch Devil. The key Sakura on hand was Rider's room key, and it unlocked the door to Rider's room, where Rider's corpse was found. However, because of this deception, it is totally possible that not only the First Twilight, but ALSO the Third Twilight are not closed room murder cases! Naturally, this also means that Illya was betrayed by the other culprits, who just so happen to be the survivors of the Third Twilight: Shirou, Kotomine, Archer, Assassin, Kuzuki, and Caren!

Tangerang
September 16th, 2018, 04:28 PM
I'll slice that apart.

The room Sakura was discovered in was her true guestroom. Ilya was not complicit in the murders of the first twilight.

Bloble
September 17th, 2018, 11:45 PM
1. Your truths state that prior to the entry of the group that discovered Sakura and Rider's bodies into their rooms, no living humans were present in those rooms. Furthermore, you stated that there can be no hidden passageways attached to a room. I therefore propose that: Hidden compartments exist attached to the rooms, where a living human can hide without being detected. The murderer was present in this compartment when the door to Sakura's room was broken down, having stowed away there after setting up the locked room and committing the murders. This enabled them to lock the final door from the inside, creating the illusion of a locked room. This culprit later joined the group as they migrated to Rider's room, leaving Sakura's room secretly once the door had been broken down.

mAc Chaos
September 18th, 2018, 02:11 AM
lol, you are a genius Bloble.

RoydGolden
September 18th, 2018, 05:25 PM
At this point I can only stare in gaped astonishment at the incredible theories you guys are coming up with. Seriously, this passed way out of my league a long time ago.

Tangerang
September 19th, 2018, 12:02 AM
Now that would be an interesting trick wouldn't it?

Unfortunately for you,

No hidden compartments or hiding places exist in any of the rooms. Furthermore, for the first twilight, once the survivors exited Sakura's room to head to Rider's room, not a single living person entered or exited Sakura's room.

Bloble
September 22nd, 2018, 10:48 PM
Requesting some clarification on a few reds:

Concerning 1) No hidden compartments or hiding places exist in any of the rooms. Furthermore, for the first twilight, once the survivors exited Sakura's room to head to Rider's room, not a single living person entered or exited Sakura's room.

Repeat it in red: "No living human or corpse can be hidden in a room and remain undiscovered by living humans in that room."

Concerning 2) After all once a fatal wound is inflicted, their life is extinguished. There is no time to perform such complex actions as fiddling with the door.

Repeat it in red: "Once someone suffers a fatal wound, they can no longer lock or unlock doors."

Also, say this in red as well: "Once someone suffers a fatal wound, they can no longer lock or unlock windows."

Concerning 3) Ilya was not complicit in the murders of the first twilight.

Say it in red: "Ilya was not complicit in any of the culprit's machinations surrounding the murders of the first twilight, including those that had nothing to do with the actual act of murder. For example, she did not help the killer to cover their tracks."

Concerning 4) Sakura had Sakura's key at the time of her murder, and Rider had Rider's key at the time of her murder.

Repeat it in red: "Sakura had the key to her own room the time of her own murder. Rider had the key to her own room at the time of her own murder."

Concerning 5) No hidden compartments or hiding places exist in any of the rooms.

Say it in red: "A person or corpse cannot hide in any of the rooms without being discovered by those investigating it."

And finally, 6) Both the corpses of Sakura and Rider were holding the room keys in their hands when the survivors opened the door.

Repeat it in red: "When her corpse was discovered, Sakura was holding Rider's key. When her corpse was discovered, Rider was holding Sakura's key."

Tangerang
September 22nd, 2018, 11:21 PM
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/umineko/images/9/93/Ber_a21_warai3.png/revision/latest?cb=20130925011041

You want me to repeat some statements in red? Sure thing, I'll repeat them.

Sure thing, I'll repeat them.


"No living human or corpse can be hidden in a room and remain undiscovered by living humans in that room."

Acknowledged. No living human or corpse can be hidden in a room and remain undiscovered by living humans in that room.


Repeat it in red: "Once someone suffers a fatal wound, they can no longer lock or unlock doors."

Also, say this in red as well: "Once someone suffers a fatal wound, they can no longer lock or unlock windows."

Acknowledged. Once summon suffers a fatal wound, any followup action whatsoever is impossible. This includes locking or unlocking any doors or windows.


"Ilya was not complicit in any of the culprit's machinations surrounding the murders of the first twilight, including those that had nothing to do with the actual act of murder. For example, she did not help the killer to cover their tracks."

Acknowledged. Ilya did not aid the first twilight either intentionally or accidentally.


Repeat it in red: "Sakura had the key to her own room the time of her own murder. Rider had the key to her own room at the time of her own murder."

Acknowledged. At the time of death, Sakura possessed the key to her own room, and Rider possessed the key to her own room.


"A person or corpse cannot hide in any of the rooms without being discovered by those investigating it."

I feel like this is covered by the first truth but sure. Acknowledged. A person or corpse cannot remain hidden in any room when survivors investigate it.


Repeat it in red: "When her corpse was discovered, Sakura was holding Rider's key. When her corpse was discovered, Rider was holding Sakura's key."

...

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/umineko/images/6/6a/Ber_a21_akuwarai2.png/revision/latest?cb=20130925010341

I refuse. Go ahead and fire off that blue truth. Let's see if you have better luck this time.

Bloble
September 23rd, 2018, 12:34 PM
Alright. Then I'll revive it. That blue truth you've been cutting down since the very beginning.

"The room key Rider was holding when her body was discovered wasn't Sakura's! It belonged to someone else, and Kotomine Kirei, who was actually in possession of Sakura's key, swapped it with the one Rider was holding when he first approached the body! The locked room was thus created by locking Rider's corpse in her room using her key, then planting it on Sakura and locking Sakura in her own room using Sakura's key. Thus, this locked room is false."

Zurvan
September 23rd, 2018, 01:32 PM
Seems like you're getting somewhere

Tangerang
September 23rd, 2018, 10:20 PM
"The room key Rider was holding when her body was discovered wasn't Sakura's! It belonged to someone else, and Kotomine Kirei, who was actually in possession of Sakura's key, swapped it with the one Rider was holding when he first approached the body! The locked room was thus created by locking Rider's corpse in her room using her key, then planting it on Sakura and locking Sakura in her own room using Sakura's key. Thus, this locked room is false."

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/umineko/images/c/c0/Ber_a21_warai4.png/revision/latest?cb=20130925011042

It's taken you all a pretty long time to come this far. But I suppose with enough times it's possible for even the slowest to crawl their way to the finish line.

I'll allow it for now.

http://umineko.wikia.com/wiki/File:Ber_a21_warai4.png
http://umineko.wikia.com/wiki/File:Ber_a21_warai4.png



https://image.flaticon.com/icons/svg/26/26050.svg

https://i.imgur.com/cMgVqat.png

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/umineko/images/3/3d/Ber_a21_warai1.png/revision/latest?cb=20130925011041

2 of the 3 twilight solved. But 2/3rds of the time has elapsed. A single gate blocks your path to victory, but will you really be able to overcome it...?

Bloble
September 24th, 2018, 11:22 PM
The third twilight has been left relatively unexplored, because on the surface it's just an expansion of the first twilight. So, with that logic, we should handle it a similar way, no?

I do hope that isn't the case, though.

1. "One of the murder victims didn't in fact have the key to the next room in the 'cycle' in their possession at time of discovery of their corpse. Using a stealthy key swap, like in the first twilight, the culprit falsified the locked room murders and created an illusory circle."

And now for an actual guess:

2. "Ilya's room wasn't actually locked when it was discovered in the morning. Shirou, as the culprit in the second twilight and the first to test the door, would have plenty of motivation to falsify another locked room. And, as her brother, he would have the means to gain her trust despite the hostile atmosphere of the mansion. The rest of the cycle was thus falsified after the murders of the other three, and some swapping of keys. After locking the door for the night, Ilya later unlocked it to let in her brother, and was murdered for it!"

Tangerang
September 26th, 2018, 11:54 PM
I do hope you don't underestimate the third twilight by thinking it's similar to the first. That kind of thinking... might leave you burned.


"One of the murder victims didn't in fact have the key to the next room in the 'cycle' in their possession at time of discovery of their corpse. Using a stealthy key swap, like in the first twilight, the culprit falsified the locked room murders and created an illusory circle."

Each of the murder victims who fell on the third twilight had the key to the next room in their possession.


"Ilya's room wasn't actually locked when it was discovered in the morning. Shirou, as the culprit in the second twilight and the first to test the door, would have plenty of motivation to falsify another locked room. And, as her brother, he would have the means to gain her trust despite the hostile atmosphere of the mansion. The rest of the cycle was thus falsified after the murders of the other three, and some swapping of keys. After locking the door for the night, Ilya later unlocked it to let in her brother, and was murdered for it!"

Ilya's room was locked before it was opened in the morning.

You'll have to do much better than that to overcome this third and final twilight.

Bloble
September 30th, 2018, 12:03 AM
Those truths of yours seem airtight, but I won't trust something so misleading anymore.

Each of the murder victims who fell on the third twilight had the key to the next room in their possession.

Please amend your truth to be more precise. Repeat it in red: "Each of the victims had the key to the next room in their possession at the time their bodies were discovered."

Ilya's room was locked before it was opened in the morning.

If once was easy, three more times shouldn't be a problem. Repeat it in red: "Each of the victims' rooms were locked before they were opened in the morning."

Tangerang
September 30th, 2018, 02:13 PM
... (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcTxd5qQChw)

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/umineko/images/b/bf/Ber_a21_akuwarai4.png/revision/latest?cb=20130925010341

...Are you suuuuure you want to press on with that train of thought? Positive? There certainly won't be any regrets, riiiiiight?

Here I thought I was being merciful by leaving just the tiniest bit of breathing room for you... but if you want to tighten that noose on your neck yourself, who am I to stop yooooouuuuuuu~

You're prepared for it right? I mean you asked for it after all.

Each of the victims had the key to the next room in their possession at the time their bodies were discovered.

Each of the victims' rooms were locked before they were opened in the morning.

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/umineko/images/1/18/Ber_a24_akuwarai3.png/revision/latest?cb=20130925011239

This is what you wanted, riiiiiiiight? All I did exactly what you asked for, repeated exactly what you wanted, word for word. You can't blame anyone else. In other words, this is what you expected, riiiiiight?

Speaking of expectations...

https://i.imgur.com/HX8mY3Q.png

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/umineko/images/2/29/Ber_a24_warai3.png/revision/latest?cb=20130925011736

Tick tock, tick tock. Is that the sound of inevitability I hear crashing in the distance~

Bloble
October 1st, 2018, 11:54 PM
This does look rather awful...

But, blind stupidity has its own benefits. One among them being an endless amount of stubbornness.

1. Illya could have been alive right up until the moment Shirou broke down the door. In that split second, it's possible for her to have been killed by a thrown stake without the others seeing. Since it's not possible to tell how long ago someone died and death from a fatal wound is instant, this murder could have been concealed much like that of the second twilight.

2. One of the victims was killed as they were locking their door: A stake was launched through the space between the door and the frame, then the victim locked and closed the door before being struck and killed. In this manner, a locked room can contain no living humans.

3. One of the "corpses" was merely a living person pretending to be dead. In this manner they fooled the others into believing a murder had taken place. Then, at a later point, they were actually killed, turning the illusion into reality.

Well, it'd be surprising if either of these worked. Still, I'm too stupid to give up even in a hopeless situation!

So here, a few more sentences I'll ask you to repeat in red. Since I'm just digging my own grave you'll indulge me, right? These reds are mostly harmless, after all.

"After meeting up in the morning, the group consisting of Shirou, Archer, Kotomine, Assassin, Kuzuki, and Caren did not separate or lose sight of each other until they discovered Lancer's body holding the key to Ilya's room. It's impossible for one of them to have secretly snuck away for any length of time without the others noticing."

"Each room key only locks and unlocks its individual room. No key can lock or unlock more than one room."

"When Illya's body was discovered, all four victims of the third twilight were already dead."

"None of the victims of the third twilight was themselves a culprit."

Tangerang
October 3rd, 2018, 02:03 AM
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/umineko/images/c/c0/Ber_a21_warai4.png/revision/latest?cb=20130925011042

Well at least you recognize your shortcomings. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENL0nPskSao)

Let's get started then cutting down those blue truths shall we?


Illya could have been alive right up until the moment Shirou broke down the door. In that split second, it's possible for her to have been killed by a thrown stake without the others seeing. Since it's not possible to tell how long ago someone died and death from a fatal wound is instant, this murder could have been concealed much like that of the second twilight.

Ilya was dead by the time the door was opened by Shirou.


One of the victims was killed as they were locking their door: A stake was launched through the space between the door and the frame, then the victim locked and closed the door before being struck and killed. In this manner, a locked room can contain no living humans.

A door can only be locked when it is closed. In other words, it is impossible for a stake to pass through the space between door and frame while it is being locked.


One of the "corpses" was merely a living person pretending to be dead. In this manner they fooled the others into believing a murder had taken place. Then, at a later point, they were actually killed, turning the illusion into reality.

Each room in the third twilight contained a corpse prior to the door being opened. And by corpse of course I mean dead body.

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/umineko/images/3/3d/Ber_a21_warai1.png/revision/latest?cb=20130925011041

Now onto the second half. I believe there were some statements you wanted me to repeat in the red. Ah yes.


"After meeting up in the morning, the group consisting of Shirou, Archer, Kotomine, Assassin, Kuzuki, and Caren did not separate or lose sight of each other until they discovered Lancer's body holding the key to Ilya's room. It's impossible for one of them to have secretly snuck away for any length of time without the others noticing."

Acknowledged. After meeting up in the morning, the group consisting of Shirou, Archer, Kotomine, Assassin, Kuzuki, and Caren did not separate or lose sight of each other until they discovered Lancer's body holding the key to Ilya's room. It's impossible for one of them to have secretly snuck away for any length of time without the others noticing.


"Each room key only locks and unlocks its individual room. No key can lock or unlock more than one room."

Acknowledged. Each room key only locks and unlocks its individual room. No key can lock or unlock more than one room.


"When Illya's body was discovered, all four victims of the third twilight were already dead."


"None of the victims of the third twilight was themselves a culprit."

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/umineko/images/e/e9/Ber_a24_akuwarai2.png/revision/latest?cb=20130925011239

Hmmm...

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/umineko/images/c/c2/Ber_a24_warai4.png/revision/latest?cb=20130925011737

I think I'll refrain from repeating those two for now.

SpoonyViking
December 6th, 2018, 09:40 PM
Wait, sorry, how did this end? Or rather, seems it didn't?...

RoydGolden
December 6th, 2018, 09:41 PM
Wait, sorry, how did this end? Or rather, seems it didn't?...

It went past the deadline and no one solved the mystery, so it seems Tang just dropped it.

Skull
December 6th, 2018, 09:48 PM
Nani!? An Umineko detective game and I missed it?

Pardon me whilst I go commit ritual sudoku... :sumanai:

Tangerang
December 7th, 2018, 02:42 AM
As there is still an unsolved closed room, if you feel like it, go ahead and make some new theories or blue truths as you please. I don't mind.

Skull
December 7th, 2018, 06:13 PM
Very well, challenge accepted. :umu:

I have read the case details and the Red/Blue Truths stated previously. Now I must sleep, but come the morning I will attack the Third Twilight relentlessly with my four Blue Truth Bullets.

However before that, there is something plaguing my mind about the first two Twilights... while it is true that the "Locked Rooms" had been unlocked thanks to the combined efforts of the participants, if we take the solutions suggested at face value then it appears that the "Culprit" had changed in the Second Twilight (and might do so again in the Third). So my question is that does the game just end if all three Locked Rooms are resolved or is there some sort of bonus round where we have to deduce the identity of the Mastermind that's been going around killing people?

I'm fine either way just curious.

Tangerang
December 7th, 2018, 06:37 PM
We can cross that bridge once we get there, if the final Twilight can be defeated...

Skull
December 8th, 2018, 08:16 AM
We can cross that bridge once we get there, if the final Twilight can be defeated...
Oh, it will be defeated. Consider it my Christmas gift to you. Afterwards, I suppose there's a couple of ways to figure out the Mastermind, maybe I do a "Closing Argument" a la Dangan Ronpa or maybe I cross-examine witnesses who use the Purple Declaration. Well, I'll leave it up to you if you want to continue after I crush this Twilight... :p

Anyways, let the Roleplay begin!!!

====================

What's this? I wash up out of the river and I smell the delicious scent of despair. But as much as I enjoy a good Killing Game, this isn't one of mine...so I think I'll smash that pesky Locked Room Mystery for you, just leave it up to reliable ol' Monokuma. Puhuhuhuhu...

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/danganronpa/images/3/34/Danganronpa_1_Monokuma_Sitting_Sprite_06.png/revision/latest?cb=20170520220528 (https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwj-3sj-hJDfAhVI-YUKHeMWD9MQjRx6BAgBEAU&url=http%3A%2F%2Fdanganronpa.wikia.com%2Fwiki%2FFi le%3ADanganronpa_1_Monokuma_Sitting_Sprite_06.png&psig=AOvVaw2SIYtpEoKlgzzpAI1_Kzrj&ust=1544351813322400)

Let's have some fun and start with a gentle warm up shall we? Despite seeming obvious, I wanna put to rest the cause of death as any half-decent investigation can't begin without establishing that, especially as the Second Twilight revealed that poison was knocking around. So without further ado;

The Victims were not in fact stabbed to death, they were poisoned and whether through in person, an accomplice or through remote method - the Culprit applied the stakes post-mortem.

It's a shame I have to waste a Blue Truth on that, but what can you do when my predecessors had overlooked such a trivial thing.

Aside from poison, there was one other remote murder method I wanted to shut down. It was confirmed via Red Truth that there existed no mechanism "in the guest rooms" that can kill someone, but the mention that there was ventilation ducts concerns me and so I wanted to prod this cattle;

The Victims were killed by the stakes which were fired from outside the guestrooms via the ventilation system.

Anyways, now that that's out of the way let's roll with the assumption that the killer actually entered the room himself and killed the dimwits - er I mean victims. How did he get in or out? Simple! They didn't need a key to get in, only to seal the door after the fact.

The Culprit was invited into the Victim's room and after killing them, left a different key in their possession whilst taking their key to lock the door behind them before moving on to the next person.

Granted, this obviously can't work four times - only two at a maximum. But I'm not so foolish to believe that all four Locked Rooms were created using the same method and if this statement does manage to pass then it'll at least half the number of puzzles.

Keys, keys, keys... It's a curious thing how someone even starts this murder quest as it would immediately require someone else's key to place in the first chronological victims possession. The narration is suspiciously sparse on what happens prior to the murders so maybe it's worth investigating that. Something else that bugs me is how you can lock the door to your guestroom without having to use the key itself, seems somewhat dangerous as if you got lazy you could easily lock yourself in whilst leaving your key elsewhere...or if you had the wrong key.

Prior to their deaths, some or all of the Victims did not have their own keys in their possession.

Well, that's four Blue Truths for now. Nothing too hard for you to refute I'm sure, so don't get cocky as like I said before - this was just a friendly warm-up, my claws have yet to come out... Puhuhuhuhuhuhuhuhu!!!!

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/danganronpa/images/f/f1/Danganronpa_1_Monokuma_Fullbody_Sprite_05.png/revision/latest?cb=20170520215900

======

As an aside, if it's just me playing from now on then it might be prudent to remove the "Four Blue Truths per day" limit to keep things moving along, but let's see how this plays out. :)

Tangerang
December 8th, 2018, 03:01 PM
Okay let's resume this. I might be a bit rusty after all this time hmm....


The Victims were not in fact stabbed to death, they were poisoned and whether through in person, an accomplice or through remote method - the Culprit applied the stakes post-mortem.


The Victims were killed by the stakes which were fired from outside the guestrooms via the ventilation system.


Each of the victims of the third twilight were murdered directly. There were no indirect murder methods such as poison or remote traps.


The Culprit was invited into the Victim's room and after killing them, left a different key in their possession whilst taking their key to lock the door behind them before moving on to the next person.

As you mentioned, that doesn't explain the full lock room chain. Thus there's no need for me to refute an incomplete blue truth.


Prior to their deaths, some or all of the Victims did not have their own keys in their possession.

Same as before, an incomplete blue truth. Thus for now, I'll hold off on destroying this with the red truth.

Also feel free to use as much blue truths or requests for reds as you please.

Skull
December 10th, 2018, 08:02 AM
Phew, after a busy weekend away from the computer, I'm finally back. Only to find...

Hmm... two Truths completely destroyed whilst the other two didn't even manage to leave the gun. Turns out I was the rusty one, guess that's what happens when you haven't touched the series in a while. Nevertheless, I shan't give up without a fight!
===================

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/danganronpa/images/4/44/Danganronpa_1_Monokuma_Fullbody_Sprite_07.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/98?cb=20170520215904 (http://danganronpa.wikia.com/wiki/File:Danganronpa_1_Monokuma_Fullbody_Sprite_07.png )

Oh no... I'm on the backfoot already, how terrifying these witches are. I still need a few more details before I can start advancing my main theory via Blue Truth but I do possess a rough understanding of how the main events went down, so I guess I can't be so koi anymore in my attempts to fish for information.

Occam's razor suggests that the simplest solution would be to have an accomplice hidden within the Locked Room and once the attention of the Survivors is on the Victim, the accomplice slips away. There aren't many ways this can work in the Third Twilight, what with no 15th person and the fact that the Survivors didn't split up. But nevertheless, it's worth being investigated.

And so I challenge you to repeat this in Red - "Prior to the Survivors opening each door, the Victim of that room was the only person - alive or dead - inside the room."

Aside from that, I sincerely hope this isn't the case but the absolute security of the locks themselves needs to be established. It's been set in stone that someone can only lock a door from the outside with the key, but that pesky fact that you can lock the door from the inside without the key exists and so I can't get that out of my mind even though I doubt it's the solution.

This shouldn't be hard to repeat in Red hopefully - "All doors to the guestrooms were locked by actual people - not through remote means such as a device hidden within the room and later discreetly removed by the Culprit."

Speaking of locks, I won't give up on the issue of keys so easily, especially when they are the key to this riddle.

Repeat this in Red please - "Prior to their deaths, none of the Victims' keys left their possession at any point."

One last Red request to round us out for the time being - "All four of the Victims of the Third Twilight were killed inside their respective guestrooms."

Puhuhu~ The claws are out now, don't think I'll let you escape so easily this time...

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/danganronpa/images/b/bb/Danganronpa_1_Monokuma_Fullbody_Sprite_03.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/108?cb=20170520215856 (http://danganronpa.wikia.com/wiki/File:Danganronpa_1_Monokuma_Fullbody_Sprite_03.png )

========================

I think that perhaps the increase in difficulty for such a game as this stems from the lack of a Detective character who has an objective viewpoint and can invoke Detective's Authority. Not that I'm complaining, just something I noticed since the players have to do extra groundwork that would've normally been covered by the Detective's Piece on the gameboard investigating before the Meta-Game actually starts.

That reminds me, the last two Volumes of the Umineko LNs came out recently and I should get them. <3

Tangerang
December 10th, 2018, 10:44 PM
Hmmm... this time it's a bunch of requests of statements to repeat in the Red Truth. I wonder which ones I should accept and which ones I should deny to achieve the greatest effect...


And so I challenge you to repeat this in Red - "Prior to the Survivors opening each door, the Victim of that room was the only person - alive or dead - inside the room."

Allow me to amend an earlier red truth for an even more complete denial.

Each room in the third twilight contained a corpse prior to the door being opened. And by corpse of course I mean dead body.

And of course those corpses belonged to the victims of the Third Twilight.


This shouldn't be hard to repeat in Red hopefully - "All doors to the guestrooms were locked by actual people - not through remote means such as a device hidden within the room and later discreetly removed by the Culprit."

This theory has already been denied with previous reds.

The only way to lock the doors from the outside is with the usage of their keys. No other method exists to lock the door from the outside.

No room doors possess an auto-lock feature. In other words, doors can only be locked or unlocked when they are closed. Or to get more to the point, it's impossible to lock the door and then close it!

Well, rereading it I suppose you could make a crazy argument about some device X locking the room from within the room, so let me be clear.

There is no device X that can lock a door from within the room. Only a living human can lock the door from inside the room.


Repeat this in Red please - "Prior to their deaths, none of the Victims' keys left their possession at any point."



One last Red request to round us out for the time being - "All four of the Victims of the Third Twilight were killed inside their respective guestrooms."

Hmmm... I wonder...

I'll decline to repeat these in red for now. If you devise a blue truth bullet utilizing these as the base of your theory, maybe then I will slice it apart from the red truth.

Perhaps...

Skull
December 14th, 2018, 03:46 PM
Hmm... I was going to take my time with a few more requests for Red, until I was certain I could get it in one solid Blue Truth, but December is proving to be annoyingly busy and so I'll just have to go on the attack earlier than planned so I can solve this before I depart for the Holidays.

=====================

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/danganronpa/images/5/53/Danganronpa_2_Monokuma_Fullbody_Sprite_09.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/114?cb=20170520235620

Well, well, well. Now that the invincible Witch has relented in more than three requests for Red Truths, I think we have enough evidence to launch an opening salvo.

But before that, it's worth reviewing what we know so far for certain as that will help shine a light on the dark core of this mystery:

On the morning of the Third Twilight, the Survivors went to investigate the locations of the missing persons and arrived at Ilya's guestroom first. I suspect it's not a coincidence that they went there first just because "it was closest" as we have confirmed via Red Truth that prior to Shirou breaking down the door that Ilya was already dead and had the Key to Caster's guestroom in her possession. Thus starts the chain of Locked Room Mysteries, however since this Closed-Room Ring is a paradox it stands to reason that it is simply an illusion. Therefore to crack this conundrum, we must consider two things - "When each of the Victims was murdered" and "When each of the Keys exchanged hands". The facts remain that Ilya was found dead first, but we don't actually know where the remaining three Victims were at said time and if they were alive or dead, so they are like the proverbial cats in the box.

And with that....

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/danganronpa/images/4/4f/Danganronpa_2_Monokuma_Hidden_Monokuma_Plushies_03 .png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/119?cb=20170521000515

"It's High Noon Witch", let's see how you fare against my quick-fire shot of Blue Truths!

The night before the Third Twilight, Lancer convinced Ilya into letting him into her guestroom and killed her there. Alerting both Caster and Bazett to Ilya's danger, Lancer lured them into Ilya's room and whilst they were reeling in shock he used that opportunity to kill them both and take their Keys.

He then set up the crime-scenes of Bazett's and Ilya's guestrooms - leaving his own Key in Bazett's possession and Caster's Key in Ilya's possession. Of course Lancer's own guestroom had been prepared in advance and so he set up Caster's guestroom and then used the inside lock feature of the room to hide in and wait until the morning came.

When the Survivors came into Caster's room, the Mastermind made sure to draw everyone's attention to the body and so the concealed Lancer could slip out undetected and headed back to own his room taking Ilya's Key with him and making sure to once again use the inside lock to seal himself in. After the Survivors found Bazett's body they advanced upon Lancer's room with Key in hand.

Lancer lay in wait, ready to fake being a corpse with his partner in crime declaring him deceased. However, disaster struck for Lancer when the door opened and only his partner was standing there with a Stake in hand - immediately stabbing him and then closing the door and locking it with the Key. They then turned to the rest of Survivors who were turning the corner towards the guestroom and apologised for running on ahead but they definitely heard Lancer screaming. They then pulled out the Key and unlocked the door to find Lancer's body with Ilya's Key thus creating the Locked Room Chain...

So how was that? Be careful in refuting it as every wrong answer merely discounts another possibility and pushes me closer to the truth...
========================

I suspect I got several details wrong in that attack, but as mentioned at the top of my post, I've taken the shotgun approach to using Blue Truths in order to make up for much lost time. But hopefully, even if something is wrong the fact that Red Truths are required to refute Blue Truths means that I should still get some information to guide me back on the right track.

Tangerang
December 15th, 2018, 06:42 PM
Not bad, not bad. A blue truth that manages to slip through the red truths currently alive.

However, the weakness of the Blue Truth is that I just need to eliminate a single possibility to destroy the entire truth.

With that in mind;

Before, I stated that each room in the third twilight contained a corpse prior to the door being opened. And by corpse of course I mean dead body. Now, I will add a further clarification to that statement. Each room in the third twilight contained a corpse, and only a corpse prior to being opened. In other words, there was nothing alive within the confines of these four rooms.

Therefore it is impossible for Lancer to have been hiding in Caster's room.

Skull
December 21st, 2018, 08:10 PM
Like the Terminator, I am back. Apologies for the delay, life pinned me down and wouldn't let go.

As an aside, there was a Christmas sale on Steam today and so I bought all of Umineko so that I could enjoy it once more on my own. I still need to get the last two LNs though, I'm really curious to see how he handled the multiple endings of the final VN in book form. But onwards...

=====================

Puhuhuhuhuhuhuhuhu... there it is, there it is. A decisive Red Truth that pries open the Door to the Truth. Now that I finally have confirmation that the secret wasn't hiding within the Locked Room, it's time to finally "flip the chessboard" as they say and not ponder over "how the culprit managed to do it without hiding in the room" but rather consider "what was in place that the culprit could pull off successive Locked Rooms without needing to stay in any one room".

And as such, are you ready for another Blue Wave?

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/danganronpa/images/6/6c/Danganronpa_2_Monokuma_Hidden_Monokuma_Plushies_02 .png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/154?cb=20170521000513

The night before the Third Twilight, by hook or by crook Lancer managed to get into Ilya's guestroom and killed her there. Alerting both Caster and Bazett to Ilya's danger, Lancer lured them into Ilya's room and whilst they were reeling in shock he used that opportunity to kill them both and take their Keys.

He then set up the crime scenes of each of their rooms, working backwards by leaving his own key in Bazett's hands then locking her door before moving onto to leave Bazett's key in Caster's hands and locking the door before finally returning to Ilya's room and left Caster's key in her hands before locking the door and taking Ilya's key with him. He then hides himself, either in his room or in the corridor - somewhere where he could observe the Survivors heading to the Banquet Hall in the morning, and after he saw all of them go he headed to Ilya's room and set up the painted sigil on the door and then moved onto the others while being careful to avoid detection by the Survivors whether by precise timing or hidden compartments in the corridor or whatever. Once Lancer was done with Bazett's door, he returned to his room and used the inner lock function to seal it as he no longer had his own key. After the Survivors found Bazett's body they advanced upon Lancer's room with Key in hand.

Lancer lay in wait, ready to fake being a corpse with his partner in crime declaring him deceased. However, disaster struck for Lancer when the door opened and only his partner was standing there with a Stake in hand - immediately stabbing him and then closing the door and locking it with the Key. They then turned to the rest of Survivors who were turning the corner towards the guestroom and apologised for running on ahead but they definitely heard Lancer screaming. They then whipped out the Key and unlocked the door to find Lancer's body with Ilya's Key thus creating the Locked Room Chain...

============================

I know that "a secret hidey hole within the corridors" sounds completely ridiculous, but this is what I mean by my earlier comments about the teething problems of roleplays such as this, as the floor layout of the mansion wasn't described in the narrative, it's unclear if it's possible to move within the corridors without being seen by another person.

Also, yes I know I was lazy and copy-pasted the bits of my Blue Truth that remained unchanged, fite me.

Tangerang
December 23rd, 2018, 12:10 AM
I see. A thoroughly twisted logic that manages to evade the blades of the red truth. Unfortunately its still not prefect enough.

Caster and Bazett died within their own rooms. They were not killed inside Ilya's room.

Skull
December 24th, 2018, 05:20 PM
Our duel is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of theory, denial and re-evaluation continue on forever. But it's time to bring this to a close.

Imma powering up to my final form!!!

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/danganronpa/images/4/4c/Monokumas_final_form.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20161123014327

The night before the Third Twilight, by hook or by crook Lancer managed to get into Ilya's guestroom and killed her there. Then he proceeded to go to both Caster and Bazett's guestrooms, convincing them in turn to let him in and murdering them shortly afterwards.

He then set up the crime scenes of each of their rooms, working backwards by leaving his own key in Bazett's hands then locking her door before moving onto to leave Bazett's key in Caster's hands and locking the door before finally returning to Ilya's room and left Caster's key in her hands before locking the door and taking Ilya's key with him. He then hides himself, either in his room or in the corridor - somewhere where he could observe the Survivors heading to the Banquet Hall in the morning, and after he saw all of them go he headed to Ilya's room and set up the painted sigil on the door and then moved onto the others while being careful to avoid detection by the Survivors whether by precise timing or hidden compartments in the corridor or whatever. Once Lancer was done with Bazett's door, he returned to his room and used the inner lock function to seal it as he no longer had his own key. After the Survivors found Bazett's body they advanced upon Lancer's room with Key in hand.


Lancer lay in wait, ready to fake being a corpse with his partner in crime declaring him deceased. However, disaster struck for Lancer when the door opened and only his partner was standing there with a Stake in hand - immediately stabbing him and then closing the door and locking it with the Key. They then turned to the rest of Survivors who were turning the corner towards the guestroom and apologised for running on ahead but they definitely heard Lancer screaming. They then whipped out the Key and unlocked the door to find Lancer's body with Ilya's Key thus creating the Locked Room Chain...

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/danganronpa/images/1/18/Danganronpa_2_Monokuma_Fullbody_Sprite_17.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/150?cb=20170520235633

Phew, transformation of Blue Truth complete. How do you like my 100% form?

Tangerang
January 2nd, 2019, 06:18 PM
Forgive me for the delay, holidays and all that. Now, back to business. You certainly seem to be fixated on the idea of a 'Lancer culprit' theory. Unfortunately for you, such a thing is as easily torn apart as paper...!

Lancer did not kill Bazett! Furthermore, Lancer and Bazett died at roughly the same time!

Now what will you do with your scapegoat gone?

Skull
January 11th, 2019, 06:00 PM
Apologies for the super long delay, New Year's celebrations, my birthday and then moving my place of work all in the same week kept me super busy.

I'll be able to start constructing a new blue truth theory tomorrow, but to keep you waiting warmly until then I do have a Red Truth request.

I was looking back through our debate thus far to remember what Red Truths had been stated previously so we don't retread old ground and I noticed something in particular and I wanted you to confirm it for me.

And so, I ask of you to repeat this in Red: "Lancer died in his own Guestroom."

Tangerang
January 12th, 2019, 05:02 AM
Sure thing, for whatever help it gives.

Lancer died in Lancer's guestroom.

Skull
January 12th, 2019, 07:07 PM
Though one Red Truth may be small, when they are woven together they make an unbreakable chain that, uh...where was I going with this metaphor?

Anyways, through the power of CONNECT FOUR!!!


Each of the victims of the third twilight were murdered directly. There were no indirect murder methods such as poison or remote traps.

Caster and Bazett died within their own rooms.

Lancer died in Lancer's guestroom.

Furthermore, Lancer and Bazett died at roughly the same time!

It stands to reason that the killer could not be in two places at once when killing Lancer and Bazett. Therefore, I deduce that there was indeed an accomplice in this crime!

Finally making progress. Now, where to go from there? Hmm... it's easier to maintain that one of the Victims was in on it so I'll continue with that line of attack. I haven't tried anything with Caster yet:

The night before the Third Twilight, Caster and an associate - we'll call them "Mr.X" entered into the rooms of Lancer and Bazett and killed them. Shortly thereafter they gained access to Ilya's room and killed her. They then set up the interiors of the crime scenes, locking the door of a victim's guestroom and then placing the key in the next person in line. Caster then hides herself, either in her room or in the corridor - somewhere where she could observe the Survivors (and Mr.X) heading to the Banquet Hall in the morning, and after she saw all of them go, she headed to Ilya's room and set up the painted sigil on the door and then moved onto the others. Once all that was done, Caster returns to her room with Bazett's key and since she is without her own uses the inside lock mechanic to seal her door and waits to be found "dead" as declared by Mr.X...

However, disaster struck for Caster when the door opened and only Mr.X was standing there with a Stake in hand - immediately stabbing her and then closing the door and locking it with the Key. Mr.X then turned to the rest of Survivors who were turning the corner towards the guestroom and apologised for running on ahead but they definitely heard Caster screaming. They then whipped out the Key and unlocked the door for the Survivors to find Caster's body with Bazett's Key thus creating the illusion of the Locked Room Chain...

Tangerang
January 12th, 2019, 09:38 PM
Now we're onto a Caster culprit theory?

I'll crush that just as easily as I crushed the Lancer culprit theory.

Caster and Ilya died at roughly the same time as well.

Skull
January 12th, 2019, 09:54 PM
Y-you fiend, you didn't really do what I think you did with this Twilight...does your madness know no bounds!?

I was about to go to bed, but I need to know otherwise I won't be able to sleep.

So give it to me in red: "Both Caster and Ilya died within their respective guestrooms."

Tangerang
January 12th, 2019, 11:19 PM
If you can come up with a proper theory for it, I wouldn't mind repeating something like that~

Skull
January 24th, 2019, 10:51 AM
For what it's worth, if anyone watching does want to join in, feel free. Otherwise I feel really bad when I see from the timestamps that I haven't responded in a week due to being really busy. A game is truly most fun when it's being played together after all.
Anyways, back into character - *ahem*

================================

How dastardly, with nothing more than a wink and a smile you watched as I walked down the completely wrong track with my theories. Truly you are a Umineko veteran.
Hmm... in my mind's eye I can still see too many paths to take, but I shalln't fall for the same thing twice so I'll eliminate some dead ends early with a few Red Truth requests.

Let's start with the concept of those pesky Keys. We've already established that there are no master/skeleton keys, but to completely shut down any wiggle room I'd like you to expand with this in Red:
"Aside from only unlocking their own sole designated guestrooms, there only exists a single copy of each Key."

What else? Oh yeah, those ventilation ducts. We established that no person, nor weapon passed through them but nobody brought up the keys at either times. So once again in Red please:
"During their stay at the mansion, at no point did any object pass through any of the ventilation ducts."

Oh and one more thing while I remember. I really hate cop-out endings so since we've established the fact that there were multiple culprits I wanted to make sure you didn't do something disappointing:
"There was no greater than four Culprits during the Third Twilight" or maybe "There was at least one amongst the Survivors who had no knowledge nor participation in the acts of murder." would be better for you?

Whatever works, I just really hate clichés like "everybody was in on it" if you get which mystery stories I'm referring to.

That'll do for now.

Tangerang
January 30th, 2019, 01:34 AM
Very well, as you wish. I'm feeling generous so I'll give you all 4

"Aside from only unlocking their own sole designated guestrooms, there only exists a single copy of each Key."

"During their stay at the mansion, at no point did any object pass through any of the ventilation ducts."

"There was no greater than four Culprits during the Third Twilight"

"There was at least one amongst the Survivors who had no knowledge nor participation in the acts of murder."

Skull
February 7th, 2019, 04:37 PM
Mmm'kay, getting closer...

Next up on my list is the matter of those windows. If you would be so kind, "At no point during their stay at the mansion did anything pass through the windows of the guestrooms."

If it so happens that you choose to decline that Red request, then I have a bit of an unorthodox follow up request. I would like to ask for a description of what the windows open out onto - it doesn't have to be a terrible complex answer, just enough so I can get an idea in my mind if they're ground floor, near to each other etc etc.

Obviously if you do manage to say my original request in Red then you can completely ignore the window descriptor as that would be rendered irrelevant.

Tangerang
February 7th, 2019, 10:43 PM
Very well. If it'll help you come up with a theory...

At no point during their stay at the mansion did anything pass through the windows of the guestrooms.

Skull
February 9th, 2019, 11:19 AM
And now onto the last thing that was bothering me. Namely that previously I had asked if the victims had died within their own guestrooms, but thinking back I can't believe I was so lax as to not confirm where they were found.

Therefore I ask you to amend a previous Red Truth: "All the victims were killed and discovered within their own respective guestrooms."

No Kansas City shuffle shenanigans here. >_>

Tangerang
February 13th, 2019, 12:30 AM
Very well, but I will add a small edit to that that I don't think you can complain about.
All the victims in thee third twilight were killed and discovered within their own respective guestrooms.

Skull
February 13th, 2019, 08:11 PM
Drat, I thought I might've had you with that one. Back to the drawing board I guess.

Y'know, I feel like I haven't been taking this seriously enough and so to get a little motivation going I'll say this:

There's two weeks left in February and so if I haven't solved it by the end of the month, I'll concede defeat to your superior Game Master abilities...

Skull
February 14th, 2019, 09:03 PM
Just wanted to double check something that I had previously been taking for granted.

The doors to the guestrooms have an inside lock iirc that allows you to lock the door from the inside without needing a key, but would the reverse also be true, namely that one could unlock the door from the inside without the key?

Tangerang
February 14th, 2019, 10:43 PM
Yes, keys are only required to lock/unlock doors from outside. If you're already inside the room, you can freely lock or unlock the door.

Skull
February 24th, 2019, 10:37 PM
With four culprits amongst the Survivors there exist many opportunities for deceit in a so called "Locked Room". Upon arriving at Ilya's door, the other three create a distraction whilst the fourth discreetly opens the door, tosses in Caster's Key before locking the door with Ilya's Key. Then when arriving at the final stop - Lancer's room, they repeat the process and toss Ilya's Key in before locking the door with Lancer's Key thus creating the illusion of a perfect ring.

So try to repeat this in Red: "After the Six Survivors met in the Main Hall, all of the Victims' doors were locked and were only opened once after they had left the Hall."

Tangerang
February 25th, 2019, 12:51 AM
At no point was a key tossed from outside the room into inside the room.


That should cover your blue truth.

As for your request, I'm afraid I'm unable to comply with it for now.

Skull
February 26th, 2019, 08:33 PM
Mmm. I did think that last Red Request might have been too greedy as it was essentially a two-in-one deal.

Try this one on for size: "Once the Six Survivors gathered in the Main Hall, each of the murder victims who fell on the third twilight already had the key to the next room in their possession."

Hmm, the final hurdle I see really is just working out the window of time in which the trick happened, I'll pause and watch how you respond before launching another Blue Truth...

Tangerang
February 27th, 2019, 10:20 AM
That one I'll allow.

Once the Six Survivors gathered in the Main Hall, each of the murder victims who fell on the third twilight already had the key to the next room in their possession.

Skull
February 28th, 2019, 07:08 PM
Interesting, if the Keys were already in place then that leaves me with only a few angles left to try...

Not all of the Victims' doors were locked when the group set out. For example, Caster's room could have been unlocked and after retrieving the Key from Ilya's room, the other three culprits make a distraction whilst the fourth secretly locks Caster's door thus creating the illusion of the Locked Room Ring.

Tangerang
March 1st, 2019, 11:14 PM
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/umineko/images/a/a5/Ber_a24_shian1.png/revision/latest?cb=20130925011735

Oh? What's this blue truth?



https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/umineko/images/6/6a/Ber_a21_akuwarai2.png/revision/latest?cb=20130925010341

Congratulations (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6aN04YAH4U)

With your determination, you have finally managed to pierce through the mystery of third twilight and successfully revealed the truth. The cat box that had been hidden in the darkness has once more been dragged to the light, and this time, successfully unlocked.

Indeed, that is the trick behind the third twilight.

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/umineko/images/b/b3/Ber_a23_warai3.png/revision/latest?cb=20130925011239

Ahhhhh~ this game took much longer than expected. But in the end, I suppose this is the fate of all such mysteries. I commend you again, on successfully solving the third twilight, along with all the other players who successfully solved the first and second twilight and created a base of red truth to battle with.

Not bad. This wasn't bad at all.

ItsaRandomUsername
March 1st, 2019, 11:15 PM
We did it, everybody. :nobunobu:

Bloble
March 1st, 2019, 11:22 PM
It's over!

Thank you, Skull! You're way better than Ange ever was!

Skull
March 2nd, 2019, 01:57 PM
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/umineko/images/0/0e/Wil_b11_def1.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/204?cb=20131010120041

"Very well Witch, let me put you to rest. Earth to earth, Ilusions to illusions - let the Witch of Falsehoods return to the Nothingness where she belongs..." *Sword slash SFX*


------------------

Phew! I was worried I might never solve this puzzle. A lot of twists and turns thanks to Tang's expert Game Master skills leading us (especially me at the start) down a series of Red Herrings and wrong paths.

Maybe one day I'll make my own TM/Umineko game with blackjack and hookers. :p


Thank you, Skull! You're way better than Ange ever was!
No, thank you, I really must commend all the previous players who cracked the first two Twilights and set up a lot of groundwork for me to borrow. It really is a shame so many people dropped out by the end but I understand, there were many days when I too could not find the time to play.