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Thread: Questions, questions and more questions (READ THE OP FOR ANSWERS)

  1. #21
    Blue Gunner RoadBuster's Avatar
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    @CG: That makes a lot of sense, which is rare in the Nasuverse, lol.

  2. #22
    From what I understood of the bomb thing, Kiritsugu created a bump in one of the leylines flowing to the Great Grail. So actually, the Great Grail is probably collecting (slightly) less prana than it should, since the bump is absorbing some of the prana. And then 40 or so years later, it reaches a critical point and an earthquake occurs.

  3. #23
    let's see.

    My take on this is that mystery and age are conflicting sides of a Noble Phantasm's power.
    First thing. CG, you're getting confused here, you most likely mean age and fame or mystery and fame. Age and mystery aren't conflicting sides, they're the same side. Or rather, the more age something has, the more mystery it has.

    Next, it's highly doubtful that NP's have origins. Concepts, maybe, and that's a maybe (I'm not interested in a whole 'Are NP's just conceptual weapons' debate), but origins would mean that they well, have a soul. And that's a whole another debate, but it's really not likely. After all, they're weapons which are forged/made/whatever, they're not born from when a daddy sword stabs into a female shield which causes the female shield to split off into a baby lance nine months later.

    Next. Irun, Gilgamesh's artifacts are older. It's how old they are in comparison with the modern world. Or to put it in another term, let's use Lancer's Gae Bolg and Gilgamesh's hypothetical prototype. Lancer was born I don't know, let's say 1800 years ago (random number). Even if his spear may have been longer, it only really became Gae Bolg when he started using it. Afterall, Gae Bolg is the symbol of Servant Lancer, so it can't precede the existence of Servant Lancer's legend. Now, since Gilgamesh's prototype never went through that, it's age goes right back to it's creation. So it's far older. As for why it's older, well, it goes like this, here let's have Gilgamesh himself say it.

    "It is. But its strength as a Noble Phantasm is incomparable.
    What you have, 'the sword in the stone', originated from the legend of 'the sword of supremacy in the tree' from Northern Europe-But this is the original model, the foundation of the sacred right to select the king."

    The sword of supremacy in the tree-Gram, the demonic sword of Sigmund, hero of northern Europe-its original model…?

    "Children cannot defeat their parents. An imitation that deteriorates every time it is renewed cannot match the original model-!"
    Now onto how some seem to be more powerful even though their more recent 'i.e. Lancer's Gae Bolg being more powerful than Gungnir'. And here, I'm going to point out that power can mean different things. To explain, while it loses some of it's original capabilities every time it is renewed, it might also gain some new abilities as well. For example, sacrificing 'power of the concept' to increase 'pure power of the attack', or vice versa. In the descriptions of Gae Bolg, here

    Damage and form are approaching that of Lugh's Brionac, but the power of "striking the enemy no matter how many times he may dodge" comes from Odin's Gungnir.
    Now this part goes into a bit of speculation and theory, but here's my thoughts on the matter. Gae Bolg takes a little from each. Essentially, it's not as powerful in terms of pure power as Lugh's Brionac, and it's concept of 'striking the enemy' is not as strong as Odin's Gungnir. But on the other hand, in pure power it is stronger than Gungnir, and conceptually it beats Brionac.

    To put it in another way, it's like the game 'gemcraft' (go check it out if you want, it's a random free online tower defense game). The original is a 'pure gem'. Let's say the next derivation is a '2-color gem'. And the next is a '3-color gem'. And so on.

    So to put in example, let's say Gungnir had the ability of 'striking the target unless the target has A rank LCK' and Brionac was deal 1000 damage. Then Gae Bolg would be 'strikes the target unless the target has at least C rank LCK' (or B rank LCK. Or whatever) and deal 400 damage. Maybe. Perhaps.

  4. #24
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six Twelveseal's Avatar
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    It was my understanding that everything in the Nasuverse had an Origin, not just living things. Did I miss something somewhere?

  5. #25
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    Yeah, if you look at Akasha as the Origin of all things in the literal sense, even items have their original concepts (like Plato's Forms) based in the Spiral.

    But even if you restrict Akasha's Origins to 'things with souls', you're either left with a bunch of random 'stuff without souls' with which 'things with souls' can interact, but have a mysterious cause or are existences in themselves (which might conceptually place them at the same level as Akasha--which i'm implying is absurd); or you get souls in all things, but have a differentiation between living things with souls (or things with living souls, though this brings up the differentiation between mere self-awareness and capacity for morality) and non-living things with souls (things with non-living souls).
    Last edited by MZeroX; March 15th, 2011 at 04:50 AM. Reason: i don't know what i'm talking about, ever

  6. #26
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six Twelveseal's Avatar
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    It's getting a bit complex, but maybe the distinction is this: Everything has a soul, but having a soul does not equal consciousness. The fact that nature has a soul (Gaia) suggests that even objects do, so I imagine that everything has a soul. This would also help explain why Shirou's Origin is "Sword" since it reflects the nature of all his past lives, or in this case, Avalon's nature.

  7. #27
    Preformance Pertension SeiKeo's Avatar
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    Does anybody know how 'intent to kill' works? Is it a kind of proantagonist spider sense, or an ability that comes with magic?

  8. #28
    I told 'em, I told 'em. Bugrit! eddyak's Avatar
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    About the soul thing- If you're familiar with the japanese concept of "8 million gods", you should know how it works, combining it with Nasu's "belief adds power"- anything that's gained recognition gains a soul, or something close to it.

    About intent to kill, that's an overgeneralisation of a sort of "sense" trained combatants eventually gain. For example, a passerby walking down the road hears a slight crunch on the ground behind him, and a dagger lodges itself in his spine. Now, a samurai is walking down that same street. He hears air flapping clothes, smells the scent of sweat or blood, maybe even hears breathing- and turns round, stabs some guy who was trying to sneak up on him.

    Or a novice walks into a dojo, grabs a sword and challenges the master. The master gets into his stance, the novice gets owned. The same master is challenged by someone who's trained in kendo. The challenger sees the master's stance, his breathing, his tenseness, and immediately realises the master's thinking of a lethal move.

    Anime and manga have basically generalised that into a sort of "intent to kill", or "hostility", or "emnity", or something close to it.

  9. #29
    アルテミット・ワン Ultimate One Dartz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twelveseal View Post
    Everything has a soul, but having a soul does not equal consciousness. The fact that nature has a soul (Gaia) suggests that even objects do, so I imagine that everything has a soul.
    You mean it has a consciousness. But how do you know it has a soul?

  10. #30
    Preformance Pertension SeiKeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eddyak View Post
    About intent to kill, that's an overgeneralisation of a sort of "sense" trained combatants eventually gain... Anime and manga have basically generalised that into a sort of "intent to kill", or "hostility", or "emnity", or something close to it.
    But how does this work for Shirou? He doesn't have combat training, and he not only senses danger but does it from miles away (archer, UBW cemetery)

  11. #31
    I told 'em, I told 'em. Bugrit! eddyak's Avatar
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    I told you, manga and anime have generalised it into a sort of supersense. He does have some combat training, though- he was trained by Kiritsugu, after all, and he's a magus in the first place.

    Alternatively, it was another time paradox fuckup like when he was fighting Archer and gaining his skills.

  12. #32
    Low-key Rockxas's Avatar
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    In general most of the people in the Nasuverse that get involved in fights have very sharp senses because of training, and people like Shirou may gain (or enhance) those senses due to the effects of reinforcement, but like Eddyak said it can be a sixth sense kinda thing sometimes.
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  13. #33
    Taiga's knight Tobias's Avatar
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    Random thought, I always sort of put dragons as these really, really, uber divine beasts that were way over the level of all but the really big monsters of the nasuverse, types and shit, but thinking of the argonaut coin and how the beast it summoned wasn't amazingly strong, how powerful are they in actuality, when compared to servants?

  14. #34
    Preformance Pertension SeiKeo's Avatar
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    What happens to a catalyst after a Servant summoning? Nothing happened to Avalon, but is that normal or is that because it's a Noble Phantasm?

  15. #35
    吸血鬼 Vampire DragoZERO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeopardBear View Post
    What happens to a catalyst after a Servant summoning? Nothing happened to Avalon, but is that normal or is that because it's a Noble Phantasm?
    Nothing happened to Rin's, so I don't think anything happens.
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  16. #36
    アルテミット・ワン Ultimate One Dartz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tobias View Post
    Random thought, I always sort of put dragons as these really, really, uber divine beasts that were way over the level of all but the really big monsters of the nasuverse, types and shit, but thinking of the argonaut coin and how the beast it summoned wasn't amazingly strong, how powerful are they in actuality, when compared to servants?
    Lancelot actually killed one. In the prologue was stated that Noble Phantasms can kill them too. By the end of UBW, it was explicitly stated that Saber fought dragons in her time. I don't know, I suppose it depends on how old they are, Divine class dragons should be really powerful.

  17. #37
    リビングデッド Living Dead
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    What the heck does Ea actually do? It gets described differently every time.

  18. #38
    TATARI Heiress ItsaRandomUsername's Avatar
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  19. #39
    吸血鬼 Vampire AstralSword's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zevrand View Post
    What the heck does Ea actually do? It gets described differently every time.
    It is called a "sword", but it has no edge (having actually a round form), making it a bad choice for hand to hand combat. The trump card of this weapon is that it is divided in 3 sections, in which each spins towards a different direction.

    When Gilgamesh wants to used it, at least in the Fate route, he talks to it, saying something like "Wake up EA. Spin".

    When he says the attack's true name (Enuma Elish) normally the three sections are already spinning at really high speed, and the wind released is strong enough to tear apart the earth (hence the description of the sword in the game) and also strong enough to fend off a Excaliblast almost killing Saber in the process. And he even mocks the Excaliblast, apparently having only used a small fraction of EA's power.

    Gilgamesh only used this attack full strenght once, against Rider in Fate/Zero. The attack was so powerfull that people tend to call it "True Enuma Elish".

  20. #40
    Inactive mewarmo990's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zevrand View Post
    What the heck does Ea actually do? It gets described differently every time.
    More accurate to say it has different degrees of output. At full power it splits heaven and earth, opens a rift in reality, all that jazz. Good against worlds and pocket dimensions (Reality Marbles).

    But usually he doesn't need to do that, he just spins it up and blasts you into oblivion.

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