Questions, questions and more questions (READ THE OP FOR ANSWERS)

[Arashi_Leonhart]

In Zero it was Anti-Unit 2-3 and it was still A++.
Answer is obviously Karna>Saber

I thought that was talking about the golden version. You know, in the visual guide to the anime, how Nasu points out that IA is like a 80 and Golden Excalibur is like 1000.

The point is that the weapon alone without putting mana into it and calling its true name is separate from the activated NP and implied to be probably ranks lower in general attack power except for some cases like Vasavi Shakti.

If you went by D&Dish terms, you could probably think of it like

Regular Excalibur without injecting magic energy in it: STR damage
Invisible Air: +10 bonus damage
Golden Excalibur: +10d6 damage
Excaliblast: +10d6 damage, 3 squares wide 50 square line AoE

If you actually had A ranked STR and you hit Berserker, you'd be able to hit him with STR damage. If you hit him with it with IA over the sword, you wouldn't gain any of the IA bonus damage because IA is not an A-ranked NP. If you hit him with Golden Excalibur or Excaliblast, you deal all the damage and win all the experience and treasure forever.

[You]

The point is that the weapon alone without putting mana into it and calling its true name is separate from the activated NP and implied to be probably ranks lower in general attack power except for some cases like Vasavi Shakti.

what about passive nps though? Like Arondight.

[Arashi_Leonhart]

what about passive nps though? Like Arondight.

Look don't ask me, Nasu's the one that likes to give Excalibur different modes like its a shounen hero.

Although I seem to recall Gae Buidhe being described as having noticeable mana leaking from its tip when Diarmuid is trying to jam it into Saber so maybe even passives still need some kind of injection. Like, mana vaccines.

[You]

well even normal Servant weapons need magical energy injections. so yeah.

[Altaris]

So Karna can makes his attack A rank through sheer skill despite his Strength only B rank. Does that mean he can pierce God's Hand with his regular attack ?

[Zurvan]

if he ups it with skill yes why wouldn't it?
Not that it makes much sense

[You]

So Karna can makes his attack A rank through sheer skill despite his Strength only B rank. Does that mean he can pierce God's Hand with his regular attack ?

if he ups it with skill yes why wouldn't it?
Not that it makes much sense

Depends.
It says power proportional to A rank. It doesn't say equivalent to A rank.
God Hand depends on Rank, so then is the rank actually equal to A or just power of the attack is equal to A and the rank is still B?

It means that Lancer's spear possesses power proportionate to an A-rank attack. But while the spear itself is certainly a rare gem, it never could have penetrated this dragon's body and landed a blow by itself. Lancer's destructive force comes from his immense physical strength and his transcendent technique.

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Thinking about it in the shower.
Circumstantial evidence that A++ Anti Unit refers to Golden Excalibur:
Range = 2-3.
Arondight Range = 1-2.
Clarent Range = 1.
IA Range = 1-2.
Gae Budhie Range = 2-3.
Why does Excalibur Anti-Unit have a short spear range?

Circumstantial evidence that A++ Anti Unit does not refer to Golden Excalibur:
Never seen in Zero, only anime, so why even put that entry up at the time.
ew numberz, ew even more, ranges.

[Altaris]

Range and Max Target makes less and less sense the more servants they release

[Arashi_Leonhart]

Circumstantial evidence that A++ Anti Unit does not refer to Golden Excalibur:
Never seen in Zero, only anime, so why even put that entry up at the time.
ew numberz, ew even more, ranges.

Even more ew, flavor text, arguing when it's Golden Excalibur and not, since even in novels it's always described as a golden sword when unsheathed regardless to what she's doing with it, so it could even be ambiguous as to whether her charge against Diarmuid was always meant to be Golden Excalibur.

But then if you also say that regular naked Excalibur is A++, why then is Invisible Air said to increase attack power if regular Excalibur is so much more powerful, and why, regardless to IA or not, would her attacks not pierce God Hand in the first place?

[You]

But then if you also say that regular naked Excalibur is A++, why then is Invisible Air said to increase attack power if regular Excalibur is so much more powerful, and why, regardless to IA or not, would her attacks not pierce God Hand in the first place?

hmmm that's a toughie. In that type of case I would argue it as np ranks for passive nps do not count for breaking through god hand with this quote:

Along with that, there can also be how the weapon already carries the nature of a Noble Phantasm. In Saber's case, her "Invisible Air • Barrier of the Wind King" is an example. That alone doesn't have the capacity to annihilate the enemy; it is more a Noble Phantasm suitable in battle as a "sharp tool". It isn't particularly used for strength, but to put it differently it is easier to use, and a trump card that can bring victory if used well.

The rank being something inherent to the Noble Phantasm rather than an expression.
In the same way that Milbunk was arguing that Helena's UFO was A rank didn't mean that the beams that came out of it were necessary A rank (which was pretty much not true since the np refered to the beamus as well). I'd argue that Excalibur bounces off Herc because even if Excalibur (the sword) is A++ rank, it doesn't mean the attacks it uses are A++ rank. Cos Saber's STR there is only B.

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Range and Max Target makes less and less sense the more servants they release

amen

[mewarmo990]

Range and Max Target makes less and less sense the more servants they release

Saber Rama's Brahmastra is pretty funny at least. Range 10. He forced Brahmastra into a sword because he likes Saber. Then uses it as a throwing weapon anyway. (don't point that out to him) He was frustrated in the story when Cu or someone was staying just out of his cruddy range.

Meanwhile Billy with a Colt M1877 has a range of 100. Isn't it sad, Rama?

[Arashi_Leonhart]

Saber Rama's Brahmastra is pretty funny at least. Range 10. He forced Brahmastra into a sword because he likes Saber. Then uses it as a throwing weapon anyway. (don't point that out to him) He was frustrated in the story when Cu or someone was staying just out of his cruddy range.

Meanwhile Billy with a Colt M1877 has a range of 100. Isn't it sad, Rama?

In channeling Krillin he gains the fact that he has made himself Krillin.

[Altaris]

Saber Rama's Brahmastra is pretty funny at least. Range 10. He forced Brahmastra into a sword because he likes Saber. Then uses it as a throwing weapon anyway. (don't point that out to him) He was frustrated in the story when Cu or someone was staying just out of his cruddy range.

Meanwhile Billy with a Colt M1877 has a range of 100. Isn't it sad, Rama?

But ... but gun shoots farther than throwing a sword

Higashide doesn't like Indian, I'm telling you

[forumghost]

But then if you also say that regular naked Excalibur is A++, why then is Invisible Air said to increase attack power if regular Excalibur is so much more powerful, and why, regardless to IA or not, would her attacks not pierce God Hand in the first place?

I would say that it's because attack power =/= Rank. IA adds damage to Saber's attacks, but it's still lower in Rank then Excalibur, so something that would normally be a Plus becomes a Minus against Herakles because Fuck You Godhand is Bullshit Deal with it.

[Arashi_Leonhart]

The rank being something inherent to the Noble Phantasm rather than an expression.

I'd argue that Excalibur bounces off Herc because even if Excalibur (the sword) is A++ rank, it doesn't mean the attacks it uses are A++ rank.

I would say that it's because attack power =/= Rank. IA adds damage to Saber's attacks, but it's still lower in Rank then Excalibur, so something that would normally be a Plus becomes a Minus against Herakles because Fuck You Godhand is Bullshit Deal with it.

Which again circles back to the point I was making, how naked Excalibur is weaker than IA is weaker than Golden is ~ to Excaliblast and that normally its attack power is weaker than the rank everyone always uses blah blah blah.

[JetKinen]

Range and Max Target makes less and less sense the more servants they release

I think its pretty amusing how Thunderer has bigger range than Galatine's 13km explosion

[You]

that normally its attack power is weaker than the rank everyone always uses.

i dun get it. What's the rank that everyone uses?

[Arashi_Leonhart]

i dun get it. What's the rank that everyone uses?

In arguments. "Excalibur is A++, says right in the stat line." "Well, no, maybe it's attack power isn't A++ when not shooting beams at people."

[You]

In arguments. "Excalibur is A++, says right in the stat line." "Well, no, maybe it's attack power isn't A++ when not shooting beams at people."

i see. yay circles.

but seriously.

That's when it's active.

Excaliblast > Golden Excalibur (what she slashes Gil with at the end of Fate) > Invisible Air covering Excalibur > regular Excalibur

you made it sound like the rank of Excalibur wasn't A++ when it wasn't active. Not just that it's damage wasn't A++.

[Arashi_Leonhart]

When we're talking about piercing God Hand does it even matter? If her A++ sword possibly doesn't have A++ attack power depending on the situation the A++ is irrelevant to its neutral state. Like you said, inherent and expression.