There is no actual wish made on the grail, but here the grail had all the direction it needed to carry out destruction when it spilled.
The whole point as to the 5th HGW taking place so soon was that there was no wish carried out even though it was primed and ready for one.
Localizationing stuff
See above quote.
Kotomine didn't make a wish on the Grail, Gilgamesh was simply trying to make him understand that the destruction being wrought by the Grail right then was what he truly longed for, so they could be best murder buddies."All the Servants have been eliminated; I am the only one left. Do you know what this mean? Kirei.”
"..."
Kirei, whose mind had still not completely sobered, looked intently into Gilgamesh’s red eyes.
"It is we who have obtained the Grail, so you only need to open your eyes wide and watch. If the Grail can really make the victor’s wish come true, then this scene before you — Kotomine Kirei, it is exactly what you desire.”
A crimson hell. The tortured screams that the wind carried to his ears. Dancing tongues of flame. Kirei stared blankly at this scene.
"This is… my wish?”
Exactly. If this thing that was filling the emptiness in his heart at this moment could be called ‘satisfaction’.
"Destruction and sighs… can make me happy?”
Exactly. If the emotion that roiled within his heart at this moment could be called ‘joy’.
At this moment, Kotomine Kirei finally understood the true form of his own soul.
Also, please note that black mud was spilling out of the Grail and setting everything on fire before anybody made contact with it, and that it was actually through the mud itself that they eventually did. So a wish can't be required to produce it. That's just to give birth to Angra Mainyu.
Originally Posted by Macduff05
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Localizationing stuff
As noted in the excerpt I cited previously, Kotomine did in fact touch the Grail BEFORE the mudslide occurred. His professed desire to see Angra Manyu born constituted his wish. The only reason AM didn't manifest was because Kiritsugu destroyed the Lesser Grail. Ilya, who (as an Einzbern) understood the Grail system better than most of the characters in the series, said as much in Heaven's Feel.
"I don't know how much Kiritsugu knew about Angra Manyu. But believing the shadow leaking from it to be dangerous, he destroyed the Holy Grail."
"And his course of action was right.
No matter what the previous Angra Manyu was, the Angra Manyu that formed inside the Holy Grail is real. It will become the greatest evil in the world, a devil that will kill every human being alive."
"But thanks to Kiritsugu's resolve, Angra Manyu was left unborn within the Great Holy Grail."
Last edited by Macduff05; April 10th, 2016 at 11:44 PM.
It doesn't Matter. The Grail can't grant Kirei's, Kiritsugu's, or anyones wish because it's busy trying to Grant the wish "Make Uber-Satan", and it can only Grant one Wish at a time, so even if I got it and wished for a Swimming Pool filled with Chocolate, the Grail Would still give me "Uber-Satan" because that's what's at the front of the line.
Last edited by forumghost; April 10th, 2016 at 11:41 PM.
No. That was not his wish in Zero. His wish in Zero is to figure out why he's so twisted. He only figures out and conflates that desire with the wish to see it born afterward, not before he "touches" it. You don't win the lottery by picking your numbers after the deadline.
No wish made, no mana used, grail go boom, pathway leaks, fire kills everyone, Kotomine is like hey this is cool and resembles what I wanted lets do it again, and Kiritsugu tries to shove his holy relic into the nearest person he can find.
Localizationing stuff
Actually, it does matter. True, the Grail interprets every wish in a manner resulting in mass slaughter. However, there still has to be a wish made in orderIt doesn't Matter. The Grail can't grant Kirei's, Kiritsugu's, or anyones wish because it's busy trying to Grant the wish "Make Uber-Satan", and it can only Grant one Wish at a time, so even if I got it and wished for a Swimming Pool filled with Chocolate, the Grail Would still give me "Uber-Satan" because that's what's at the front of the line.
for it to manifest. Kiritsugu backed out of making the wish because he knew what would happen it it did. Kirei Kotomine, on the other hand, had the same
knowledge but made a wish anyway because he finds death and destruction incredibly amusing.
Last edited by Macduff05; April 10th, 2016 at 11:53 PM.
No he didn't. The Fire was caused by Kerry making Saber blowing up the Grail because it was filled with Evil Juices. Then the Evil Juices spread all over the place and wrecked everything.
Kirei did make a wish. He demanded fir Kiritsugu to hand over the Grail to him so he could wish for Angra Manyu to be born. Someone doesn't have to say "I wish" for it to count. It's the desire that counts. Hence how Avenger was transformed into a world-killing abomination in the first place.
Last edited by Macduff05; April 10th, 2016 at 11:59 PM.
A) You can't Wish on the Grail when it's shattered into a million tiny pieces because it was hit by an Excaliblast.
B) If he needed Kerry to hand the Grail over to him to make the Wish, clearly just desiring it wasn't enough.
A) Kirei's wish was taken up the moment he demanded that the Grail be given to him which happened. This happened before Saber Excaliblasted the Grail.
B) He didn't know that at the time. However, the desire was still there.
Additionally, as Ilya explained in Heaven's Feel, Kiri's blowing up of the Grail actually stopped Angra Manyu from being born. Something was going to come out regardless of what Kiritsugu did. He didn't cause the Fuyuki Fire so much as fail to do enough to stop it.
Last edited by Macduff05; April 11th, 2016 at 12:15 AM.
Yes. And likewise, it'd have happened regardless of what Kirei did.
Kirei may have 'wished/desired' it to happen, but what happened nevertheless occurred independent of him, because the Grail can only Grant one Wish at a time, and since that wish is currently "Create Angra Mainyu" any subsequent wishes are equivalent to pissing in the wind, because if you wish on the Grail? You get Angra Mainyu. You don't wish on the Grail? You get Angra Mainyu.
The Holy Grail doesn't care about your wish, it's already granting one right now.
Last edited by forumghost; April 11th, 2016 at 12:22 AM.
Dude, you do realize the wish for All the Evils of the World is irrelevant to anybody participating in the HGW, right?
Localizationing stuff
As explained by Irisviel while she was possessed by AM , a wish was required to give "All the Evils of the World" form. Until then, it would remain dormant. (See post #111413)
That was at the start of the Grail War. However, after sharing Kiritsugu's vision of what was inside the Grail, witnessing the birth of what was inside became Kirei's foremost obsession.Dude, you do realize the wish for All the Evils of the World is irrelevant to anybody participating in the HGW, right?
I'm not saying that the "All The Evils of the World" in the Greater Grail originated with Kirei's wish. What I'm saying is that his wish simply lit the fuse of a bomb waiting to be set off. What is relevant is not so much the substance of Kirei's wish but the fact that Kirei made a wish at all. Kiritsugu, by virtue of not being insane, backed off from doing so while Kirei was only too happy to take his place.
Last edited by Macduff05; April 11th, 2016 at 01:51 AM.
No, you're not understanding.
The wish for All the Evils of the World is irrelevant to those participating in the HGW. It's a wish that exists due to humanity. Part of the reason that I was pointing out Kiritsugu being there is he doesn't need to "make" the wish for it to exist--as part of humanity, that wish is inherently present at all times. It doesn't matter that he then denies it, just like it doesn't matter that Shirou and Saber in FSN deny it--it can still just manifest because it has its direction once it gets its connection back to the world.
They even added a bit in the UBW anime to emphasize this.
Localizationing stuff
"Look there." Irisviel pointed to the sky. At the center of this world, there was a swirl of deep black that he originally thought was a Sun, a "hole" that pierced the heavens..."That is the Holy Grail. It has yet to obtain a shape but the vessel had already been sufficiently filled. All that's needed is to announce the prayer. No matter what you may ask of it, it will choose to take a form most fitting to realize it. Then, once it obtains form and shape in the modern era, it will be able to go 'outside' for the first time. "
As stated in the quoted excerpt and in my prior post, I am not saying that the "All The Evils of the World" in the Greater Grail originated with Kirei's wish. It merely provided it with a form that allowed it to take shape in the world.
Plus, in episode 23 of the UBW anime, wishes are shown travelling up to the hole leading to the Greater Grail and it is ONLY THEN that mud starts overflowing from the lake in Ryudou Temple.
Last edited by Macduff05; April 11th, 2016 at 02:05 AM.
A question from an aspiring fanfiction writer:
What is prana? This term has come up occasionally in source material and other writings.
Phrasing the power used to realize mysteries as "magical energy" each time feels inefficient, and isn't very aesthetically pleasing.
As I understand it, circuits produce "magical energy." Do they convert it from Mana, the ambient byproduct of the world? Od, the internal power source? Are they producing Od? If so, what are the mages who use Mana doing? I have made an admittedly perfunctory scan of the resources found in the OP, but nothing has been particularly clear.
All elucidation is very much appreciated.
That's nice, but all of the destruction in Zero was caused by the mud, not the birth of Angra Mainyu or anybody's wish. Do you not remember how the mud started spilling out of the Grail all by itself the instant it took in the fourth soul, while Kiritsugu and Kirei were fighting in the basement? And that the mud, which again, was the sole cause of the destruction, was the entire reason they found out about the contents of the Grail in the first place, when it burned a hole through the roof and fell on their heads? Before the scene you keep quoting ever happened? You can keep bolding and underlining random words all you like, doesn't change the fact that the death mud was out and doing its death mud stuff long before Kirei ever begged Kiritsugu for the Grail.
Yeah, isn't it cool that she wants him to make the wish? After all, she wants to fulfill it, his dream.
Mana is the ambient life force in the air made by the world.
Od is the life force made by a human body.
You run either one through magic circuits to produce the magical energy necessary to enact magecraft.
Prana was just another term someone came up with to replace the mouthful that is magical energy.
Typically magi use mana because it is abundant and you don't risk death by sucking it dry.
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