food is sharing food. Sweet food.
food is sharing food. Sweet food.
So yeah, I asked this... Somewhere but I'll repost it:
When Lancelot assimilates with a gun does it use any of Lancelot's stats? If Lancelot were to swing a poll it would keep his A Ranked strength but do Projectile weapons like True Assassin's Darks or Lancelot's guns use a stat?
The Hall of Selected Cruor Praise
Well, the STR stat is supposed to just represent the Servant's general attack strength, so I imagine it would be tied to that.
Do you think it's possible for Zelretch to be Zelretched so hard by another Zelretch that he can't Zelretch himself out of it?
STR is general attack strength "as is", i.e. wielding whatever they are normally associated with. For Sabre it is Excalibur, for Lancelot, it should be Arondight.
Since wielding an A++ legendary sword yields STR A (or A+ after buff), wielding lesser weapons should cause STR rank to degrade.
Only if other Zelretch's exist in other universes.Originally Posted by Neir
But I bet they do it all the time because they can.
So, once again, since I forgot the original answer, I have to ask this because of the discussion about UBW (Reality Marble) happening in the Badass Versus Thread right now.
Is Shirou's ability to project crap from thin air unique to him? Meaning, does any other magus wanting to use projection have to have some worldly materials for it first? Or can they just form some sort of basic blueprint in their minds or whatever and an imitation comes out.
Hope Rides With His Godly Ronin/Cowboy Brother In Law
All magi can create things out of thin air using projection, yes. Having the materials just makes it easier for most magi.
The sorcery is identical, the source of information is different.
Regular magi uses their memory or recipe or some schematics, thus the product is crappy.
Shirou projects from UBW, which allows for unmatched details and reproduction of concepts (very important, because he is reproducing meaning).
Projection needs no materials. However, for a regular magus, it is much better to reinforce something than projecting something really crappy from scratch (because they don't have UBW).
Ah, OK, thx. Really, the word Projection and it's general usage should have been answer enough, but I remember someone in the old thread saying that Projection needs basic physical materials.
Hope Rides With His Godly Ronin/Cowboy Brother In Law
Well, here's the whole deal. The gist is that UBW makes all the difference and let's Shirou take the unconventional path to projection. Note the last little bit in Shirou's projection entry. Projection is the same for everyone, the difference is in "loading" (where you load the blueprint of the weapon from).
Projection (Gradation Air)
投影 - Touei
The most difficult of the RAP trio. Also, the most useless in combat. Thaumaturgy where a mirror image of an original object is physically materialized through Prana. Normally, gradation air is used to project, as a substitute for a ritual, a "lost" object for only a few minutes within one's own time axis. Not efficient at all, under normal circumstances. Best thought of as a video rental where you only get the cover of the video and not the video itself, in these cases. Of course, that cover itself is close to the original physically.
It's generally a better idea to actually make the object rather than project it because duration is longer, reinforcement can be used on it, and Prana cost is cheaper overall. Called gradation because as the Prana composing the projected item quickly fades. Air is a reference to the fact the fact that the projected item is made out of nothing.
Something made of images will be recognized as being an "imaginary object" and will usually disappear right away, basically.
The actual process of forming Prana into a distinct form (like say a dagger) isn't that difficult, but it's ultimately just fluff that's shaped like a dagger which will disappear right away. With projection/gradation air, though, it is possible to have that empty video case look and have some of the same abilities as the original (the image is close to the original in a sense). In other words, it's not complete fluff.
Prana consumption is high and the object will disappear quickly, making this pretty much worthless in combat. For example, if one were to use 10 points of Prana to project a sword, the produced sword will have an ability of 3 or 4 at best since mental imagery is full of holes. Something that close to the original can't be made. In contrast, using 10 Prana to reinforce a sword will result in the sword's power increasing to 20 or 30, in addition to duration being much longer.
Preparation of the needed materials as well as the appropriate knowledge of whatever's being constructed in addition to the overlaying of one's own image on top of those materials is the normal way of stabilizing the projected item to get something close to the original. Rin originally planned on having Shirou use this method to make Zelretch.
For normal Fakers, "strengthening" of an already exiting object using "projection" is possible. However, as Shirou and Archer's weapons are being made through their Reality Marbles, they have to rely on their own images to make them entirely. They cannot "strengthen" their weapons.
See UBW entry for Shirou and Archer's version of Projection spells.Projection (Trace Version)
投影（トレース版)
Materialized projection through the reenactment (or understanding and tracing) of creation ideology, base core, composite materials, design technique, possession experience, and accumulation of years. Not the physical recreation of just a sword, but its soul itself, in other words.
Shirou's variation of gradation air. Also includes reinforcement technically. The latter functions like regular reinforcement (in that it uses an already existing object instead of creating a new one), with a lower success rate. Basically, it's mentally harder to improve upon an already completed object, or so he says. Whenever he starts spell casting, he mentally thinks of either the words synchronization or projection while actually saying out loud "trace on". In other words, either he traces over an existing object or traces an object from his internal world onto the physical world.
Unlike normal projection, he recreates objects not just from scratch using a schematic diagram, but also the ideology behind its creation as well as its history and experience. Recreating the weapon as if it had a life of its own, in a sense. Despite that, the weapons that Archer has the most experience and is best suited to using are Kanshou and Bakuya, which is why Shirou used them during one of the possible fights against Black Saber and also actually managed to defeat her (but mainly because Excalibur couldn't be used underground).
Also unlike normal projection, it's impossible for them to project an image over already existing materials to form it. This is the other reason why Azoth, which was meant to be used as the base for the recreated Zelretch, wasn't used by Shirou when he formed it. Just having the knowledge of how to make Zelretch and the base product (Azoth) to overlay that image on won't work. Both of them have to see that sword with their own eyes.
Weapons are actually projected from his internal world, Unlimited Blade Works. Mentally, tracing is preparing and loading a bullet from Unlimited Blade Works (hence multiple weapons can be stored at once). Projection is the actual firing mechanism. At higher proficiency, multiple "bullets" (in the form of weapons or a multi-action skill coming from a single weapon) can be loaded in advance.
It's a lot easier to project onto a base that's already there- for example, to layer a sword's exterior onto a table leg, or a knife onto a pen (you can't project a katana onto a hockey stick, for example, cos they don't look or feel like each other), but with Shirou, that isn't necessary, since his image is already there in UBW.
Not to mention how Shirou is supremely untalented in any magic besides UBW. As Archer said, Shirou isn't capable of a magic like projection (proper). Even reinforcement (proper) is barely within Shirou's grasp. It's when he applies the subfunctions of UBW that projection (UBW) and reinforcement (UBW) reaches the extremes we see.
Can someone tell me the new address for the Moonlit World? I am only getting to the old one x.x
Also, Shirou himself states that his only magic is UBW in the UBW route. His projection and reinforcement are just a byproduct of his very unique spell/Reality Marble.
Edit: No need, I found it. It is here now, for those that didn't knew.
Last edited by AstralSword; March 26th, 2011 at 01:11 AM.
So, I've got a question.
We know that in Tsukihime, Shiki sees the death of even the air in front of him at one point. My question is, what would actually happen if he dot-stabbed the air. Would it becomes a vacuum in the area? Would the various molecules like oxygen and carbon dioxide separate into their base elements? Just like a human's existence ends when they die, and a chair's existence ends when it gets broken, how would the air's existence end?
That would be one hell of an apocalypse. :3
Well if dot-stabbing the air resulting in the spontaneous breaking of all molecular bonds in atmospheric oxygen, hydrogen and nitrogen, they aren't going to just float away - the massively exergonic reaction that would occur between two oxygen or nitrogen radicals would probably result in a small explosion in Shiki's face. But more relevantly to the question, after the explosion, that's going to be air sitting there again - which does not compute in dot-stab language.
More plausible however is that the surrounding air would become a vacuum (now since this is essentially magic, I don't got to explain shit and conservation of energy would probably result in a nuclear explosion) as air "dies" when there is no longer anything floating in an atmospheric blanket over you.
It all comes down to what Shiki sees as "air" though. If it's just atmospheric oxygen, that'll go. If it's the whole scientific package, it all goes.
Last edited by Counterguardian; March 26th, 2011 at 05:38 AM. Reason: Thermodynamic nitpick
Does it ever say he sees the dot, or is it just lines? Ifit's lines, I'm pretty sure he'd be able to cause a small vaccuum or something or split the molecules, but I dunno wtf nasu would mean if it were a dot.
Well, I guess a dot would cause a vacuum or whatever in the entire area Shiki is in, rather than just along the line. If he can see a dot on the ground representing the death of the natural world in a certain area, I'd say the same can apply to the air.
Pretty sure that in order to kill the concept of air itself, he'd have to go find the "core" of "all air in the universe", which I doubt even exists. Lines just seem kind of silly to me, as I'm pretty sure that's equivalent to being able to see and aim at molecular bonds.
Yeah, "the death of all air in a small area" seems like the best option to me. Though I doubt Shiki would really be able to get any sort of benefit from that.
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