Questions, questions and more questions (READ THE OP FOR ANSWERS)

[Iceblade44]

Michelangelo isn't one.

Michelangelo.

I still can't accept that, simply because it makes absolutely no sense if someone that influential can't when other people of less renown like Mata Hari and Chacha and others can, and were not given any reason at all. I just hope it can be cleared up when Da Vinci's Mats comes out, because if not it will just be a dick move.

[Kyte]

My main problem with Phantom was that he came after 1900, which it was stated no more heroic spirits came after then, other than through contracts like Emiya. It could maybe work if he is some kind of wraith rather than Heroic Spirit though.

The specific date was given by Rin, who may have not been aware of exceptions. Or may have been summarizing. It was a descriptive statement, not prescriptive.

People that take it as a hard rule are dumb.

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I still can't accept that, simply because it makes absolutely no sense if someone that influential can't when other people of less renown like Mata Hari and Chacha and others can, and were not given any reason at all. I just hope it can be cleared up when Da Vinci's Mats comes out, because if not it will just be a dick move.

Maybe he just didn't wanna.

[Iceblade44]

Maybe he just didn't wanna.

Maybe, do we know whether people can choose to be added to the Throne or not? Well Michelangelo was an eccentric.

Still it would be nice to see him as a Servant, especially after knowing that his David was based off Da Vinci's male form in Fate. If he follows what Leonardo did and changed his appearance after his most famous work than we would be able to see Da Vinci bishonen male form while getting Michelangelo also, its a win-win. That's at least how I think of it.

[Qinglong]

Maybe, do we know whether people can choose to be added to the Throne or not? Well Michelangelo was an eccentric.

Well at the minimum they can refuse to be summoned IIRC and there is that thing with Nitocris's brothers going to "another place" instead of becoming a HS like she did

[Mechrast]

Is there a connection between alternate universe versions of the same character? Like, do they share the same soul or are recorded in the Throne as the same being? I've seen some stuff pointing towards this and haven't seen it discussed before. Servants in Grand Order seem to treat alternate universe versions of a person they knew as the same person, have knowledge from multiple routes/timelines and stuff like that. Examples being Nero calling Tamamo her love rival despite their Hakunos being different people technically, the world reacting negatively to Archer being in the same timeline as Shirou in UBW, Artoria and Artoria Lancer treating the round table knights as their own knights, Ruby letting you swap personalities with alternate universe versions of yourself, Nasu's comment that Extra Rin isn't the alternate version of SN Rin despite being nearly the same and that Extra Rin's family member is the counterpart (which suggests to me that there is some sort of connection), and other things. Sounds like there is a connection of sorts to me, but I could be completely off.

[Iceblade44]

Well at the minimum they can refuse to be summoned IIRC and there is that thing with Nitocris's brothers going to "another place" instead of becoming a HS like she did

But Nitocris's brother wasn't famous or rather not even that important at all for someone who was a king, with nothing particularly noteworthy about them other than how Nitocris enacted vengeance for them. To be honest Nitocris isn't that noteworthy herself, other than her revenge plot and how she was tied to necromancy in some 20th century horror novels.

[castor212]

Throne is above pleb thing such as multiverse yo

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Also, isnt it obvious 2030 Extra Rin isnt 2004 SN Rin

[Qinglong]

But Nitocris's brother wasn't famous or rather not even that important at all for someone who was a king, with nothing particularly noteworthy about them other than how Nitocris enacted vengeance for them. To be honest Nitocris isn't that noteworthy herself, other than her revenge plot and how she was tied to necromancy in some 20th century horror novels.

I mean the implication I got from that was that it was possible to choose to go somewhere else other than being summoned as a HS


Or she's just surprised she became a HS at all idk


EDIT: and let's be real there's quite a few number of servants who would fall under that "hardly noteworthy" banner

[You]

Speaking of modern weapons and guns, how do people feel about Billy the Kid being a heroic spirit? Billy definitely did become famous due to his gun, which is stated that you can't become a heroic spirit that way, but it was made a point that his gun itself isn't a noble phantasm and that he is supposed to be the symbol of the Wild West.

On another point, are there any heroic spirits that actually are agreed on to be against the canon and shouldn't be possible?

i think modern weapons means stuff like AK's and like nukes
I wouldn't count a 19th century gun a "modern weapon"

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When the story takes place doesn't matter, as what matters is when people learned of him and elevated him to a heroic spirit. 1900 was stated as the cut-off for that being able to happen. For example, a character made in a book in 2017 shouldn't be able to be made into a heroic spirit even if he is based off a previously unfamous person from the 1600's. Since he did exist in the 19th century though, it might be possible in that universe he had some level of fame even before the Phantom of the Opera was written, but I don't think that was the intent since he even has Innocent Monster to match the book character.

The mysterious person that appeared in the novel set in the 19th Century, "The Phantom of the Opera"-- probably the individual that became its model.
Living in a huge labyrinth waterway beneath the opera house, he was charmed by a young actress, guided her into becoming a songstress and performed serial murders for the sake of his unfulfilled love.

I mean for him they mentioned when the story was set rather than when it was written, so it would seem like at least for him it does.

[Iceblade44]

On another point, are there any heroic spirits that actually are agreed on to be against the canon and shouldn't be possible?

I don't think so. They all have a somewhat legitimate reason for being Servant if my memory is correct. The closest you can get are like Servants like the Prisma girls and Jaguarman. But no one will complain about Jaguarman, because Jaguarman is awesome.

[Qinglong]

TBF Prisma girls and Iri pretty much just walked into Chaldea

[You]

Jaguarman is a case like quetz or ishtar

[mewarmo990]

I wouldn't count a 19th century gun a "modern weapon"

It kind of is? I mean Billy's gun came at the time that mass production of firearms and standardization of parts had finally caught on.

Not that this is important.

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TBF Prisma girls and Iri pretty much just walked into Chaldea

in the case of Prisma, Kuro at least acknowledges that she's a copy. Prisma story Kuro is still running around in Prisma world.

also not really important to think about

[Iceblade44]

Jaguarman is a case like quetz or ishtar

I know, but its Taiga in a tiger suit/sexy mobster outfit. She may be the vessel of a Jaguar divinity, but she here purely for fanservice.

[canaki]

I'm super late but I went to check how Da Vinci phrased Michelangelo not being in the throne.
From the way Da Vinci is relieved about Michelangelo not going to the throne and how he should be able to rest in peace now (少し安心したよ、キミが英霊として座へ収まらずにいてくれて)(魂はこれで安らかに眠れるはず だ), it's probably something Michelangelo had a say in.
Interesting to see how people react differently to people they knew in life being or not being on the throne. (Like Okita, who's happy to see Hijikata in Chaldea and even mentions the possibility of other members coming here too.)

[Mechrast]

Throne is above pleb thing such as multiverse yo

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Also, isnt it obvious 2030 Extra Rin isnt 2004 SN Rin

It did seem like she wasn't the SN Rin, but it seemed strange to me to say a family member of hers was the counterpart to the SN Rin, even though the Extra Rin is name Tohsaka Rin and looks almost the same. Just made me think there must be a connection. And while the Throne is outside the multiverse, it makes me curious as to the characters not in the throne like Hakunos and whether characters like Artoria and Artoria Lancer, or other alternate universe versions are the same person.

[Kotonoha]

"I don't remember her, and Tohsaka Rin doesn't remember me. But if there is a connection between us nonetheless, then the fact that we're stuck with each other must be carved into the root. She is deeply connected to my birth as a Heroic Spirit."

It's Fate(tm)

[Sesto]

I'm not sure if it's mentioned anywhere, but can physical damage to a body ruin a magic crest

[Rafflesiac]

Assumably getting nuked would obliterate a magic crest.

[You]

I know, but its Taiga in a tiger suit/sexy mobster outfit. She may be the vessel of a Jaguar divinity, but she here purely for fanservice.

are rin and waver not?