Questions, questions and more questions (READ THE OP FOR ANSWERS)

[forumghost]

He is solar system level cuz Buddha, but he's in servant vessel in Moon Cell so obviously he couldn't utilize full power duh. Maybe he can do that in a better saint graph similar to Kiara going Beast in FGO also reached solar system level threat. On a side note technically speaking since Shingon Buddhism puts Dainichi Nyorai (Sun Buddha Vairocana) at the apex of the system with the role similar to the Christian god then puts Amaterasu = Dakini (Tamamo) = Vairocana (see the F/E material book), Amaterasu/Tamamo is actually above Saver in power cuz Vairocana is a Primordial Buddha > the historical Buddha (he's the Dharma body aka true form of the historical Buddha) but you obviously don't see that power when she's a servant. Pretty much Twice traded the most powerful Buddha for a less powerful one.

While Amaterasu may be strong, Tamamo is garbage-tier, especially since she won't use any of her actually useful abilities.

Saver on the other hand is honestly really OP, even if he's nerfed as a Servant compared to normal.

[Lily Emilio]

While Amaterasu may be strong, Tamamo is garbage-tier, especially since she won't use any of her actually useful abilities.

Why are you stating the obvious? Amaterasu and Tamamo has identical powerlvl and both are stronger than full power Saver only if they are rocking Buddha saint graph duh. That's why Kiara called Tamamo her chief god in CCC, she wants to reach that level. But we're not discussing that atm, it's just extra info I gave 8000.

Saver on the other hand is honestly really OP, even if he's nerfed as a Servant compared to normal.

Yes he is OP, but considering the servant roster, there are quite an amount of those who can resist his NP. So all things considered Gil is still the stronger one as he can counter much more servants, including the divine/monster servants who can resist Saver's NP due to not being human.

[forumghost]

Why are you stating the obvious? Amaterasu and Tamamo has identical powerlvl, and they are stronger than full power Saver only if they are rocking Buddha saint graph duh. We're not discussing that atm, it's just extra info.

lolwut? In what way does a tiny fragment of Amaterasu have the same strength as the Actual Amaterasu?

[Lily Emilio]

lolwut? In what way does a tiny fragment of Amaterasu have the same strength as the Actual Amaterasu?

Fragment? Where did you get that from? It's called bunrei dude. Bunrei is pretty much a clone of the original. Tamamo is basically Amaterasu Alter. Extella material even stated that Amaterasu power is 387,420,489, the identical number of 9 tails Tamamo. And you don't even need that number to know since Extra material already said Vairocana = Amaterasu = Dakini-ten (Tamamo) and even dropped a line saying "Uh Casko-san, your cult is pretty weird, is it gonna be fine?".

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You got trolled by Aksys translation of the term, buddy.

[castor212]

People always talk about Gilgamesh, but shouldn't Saver be the most powerful Servant by far? The Extra material strongly implies he's solar system level. Also I assume the answer is yes, but is it confirmed he wasn't actually trying against the protag? Because he should not be remotely capable losing to Nameless, Nero or Tamamo otherwise.

Gilgamesh isnt strongest Servant tho. He is strongest Hs.

saver aint HS. And so arent plenty of other stupidly op servants.

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Im going for a leg here and just gonna say that I had always assume that if Tamae meditate for 404 years or however is needed and go 9 tails, she would transform to a texhnically different being than the recorded Heroic Spirit Tamamo no Mae.

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Maybe

[Lily Emilio]

saver aint HS.

Twice called him 救世の英霊 tho.

Im going for a leg here and just gonna say that I had always assume that if Tamae meditate for 404 years or however is needed and go 9 tails, she would transform to a texhnically different being than the recorded Heroic Spirit Tamamo no Mae.

1000 years was the number given in FGO iirc. In CCC she just said she did sage training for thousands years, whatever that means. Since budget is limited they didn't show how she looks with 9 tails when she traveled back in time to 1shot Moon Cell, but from the way she talks she's still the normal Tamamo, but with Amaterasu's authorities. Right after that she cut off the 8 tails cuz the tails might affect her and revert her to Amaterasu persona or something, if you go by the FGO interlude. So it's probably: servant Tamamo -> obtain 9 tails -> servant saint graph became god saint graph -> did stuffs then cut off the tails -> god saint graph returned to servant saint graph. Kinda like the whole Tiamat saint graph stuffs if you think about it.

[castor212]

i honestly think Buddha, going by the description in extra, really is outside the scope of the Throne and much bigger than that

im kinda thinking, like, if tamae's a HS due to record, the HS part probs like, only record the stuffs she did post her reincarnation to human until she died in that field, so as Servant she obviously still is connected to her divine origin, but godly stuffs that she does or godliness state that she can reach into probs doesnt count in the record of Heroic Spirit Tamamo no Mae and plus with how her 9 tails godly form is like so much bigger than that

or smtg

is my headcanon lol

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but they have budget to make all those swimsuit's 3d model

tis bulshit, says I

[Altima of the Gates]

Yes, and Dark Sakura uses jusokai to heal as well. Curse of being immortality (positive curse) is also a recurring thing in comics. I knew about that. Still doesn't change the point about those are unusual from what you normally think of when you hear curse, which means you can't directly compare it to Meph's jujutsu of being bad stuffs unless he also shows some positive curses in the future. I was replying that to castor.

When you make the meaning of curse like that, it's meaning that you have it whether you like it or not, which would apply with Herc or Sakura in that form.

Basically healing in situations where you probably wish you had just died and gotten it over with.

I guess the meaning in arts like this would be esoteric type magic that let's you do things like maybe Orochimaru? Like, sure, it's got positive effects, but it seems slightly iffy from say a blessing or such. Like healing someone by energy draining someone else and it using negative energy.

I guess maybe using it by saying healing with negative energy spells vs. positive energy spells might work better.

[SpoonyViking]

On a side note technically speaking since Shingon Buddhism puts Dainichi Nyorai (Sun Buddha Vairocana) at the apex of the system with the role similar to the Christian god then puts Amaterasu = Dakini (Tamamo) = Vairocana (see the F/E material book), Amaterasu/Tamamo is actually above Saver in power cuz Vairocana is a Primordial Buddha > the historical Buddha (he's the Dharma body aka true form of the historical Buddha) but you obviously don't see that power when she's a servant. Pretty much Twice traded the most powerful Buddha for a less powerful one.

Pardon the ignorance, but I thought Buddhas were people who achieved enlightenment and broke free from the cycle of reincarnation, not literal deities?

[Laserman]

You got trolled by Aksys translation of the term, buddy.

What was the Akysys translation then? *sigh* Why does her information have to be so complicated?

[kotelo]

What was the Akysys translation then? *sigh* Why does her information have to be so complicated?

gotta match her speech

[asterism42]

He is solar system level cuz Buddha, but he's in servant vessel in Moon Cell so obviously he couldn't utilize full power duh. Maybe he can do that in a better saint graph similar to Kiara going Beast in FGO also reached solar system level threat. On a side note technically speaking since Shingon Buddhism puts Dainichi Nyorai (Sun Buddha Vairocana) at the apex of the system with the role similar to the Christian god then puts Amaterasu = Dakini (Tamamo) = Vairocana (see the F/E material book), Amaterasu/Tamamo is actually above Saver in power cuz Vairocana is a Primordial Buddha > the historical Buddha (he's the Dharma body aka true form of the historical Buddha) but you obviously don't see that power when she's a servant. Pretty much Twice traded the most powerful Buddha for a less powerful one.

Forgive me if I'm sceptical, but you're not exactly unbiased when it comes to the fox.

[kotelo]

I don't think Mizukume would ever lie about Tamamo.

[Altaris]

Forgive me if I'm sceptical, but you're not exactly unbiased when it comes to the fox.

At least he read the entire Tamamo CCC route in Japanese, which qualify him way more than most people commenting in this thread

[fumei]

I don't think any of that is really a matter of subjective opinion either, it's just based on mythological facts

[Lily Emilio]

Forgive me if I'm sceptical, but you're not exactly unbiased when it comes to the fox.

Do I have to quote this from the material every time then?

General Overview of the Shingon Tachikawa Sect [doctrine] P189
Shingon Tachikawa’s scriptures and theories are based on three points of view.
The first is Luminous Mind based on “Rishu-kyo.”
Sex is a natural part of being human, and originally was considered to be something very pure that is connected with enlightenment. Sex tends to be assumed to be a simple pleasure, but strictly speaking it is not actually an act that affirms your desire. Desires that are connected with infatuation and indecision are an obstacle to enlightenment, but a pure sexual desire is a desire for the benefit of all living things, and it is something that you should maintain as part of your survival instinct. It is just affirming our survival instinct and thus is connected with enlightenment.
Of course, this overview is extremely difficult to understand, and it is said that even most of the disciples taught directly by the founder of Shingon Buddhism, Kukai, were not taught it. As a rule, those who were not of high monk rank or above were not permitted to read the related scriptures.

The second is Union, which is the concept of two beings sublimated into one being, and/or being reincarnated.
This is derived from the concept of Onmyoudo (Taoist) “Cosmic dual forces connected together become taiji” that was unified with the Shugendou concept of the universe and nature. It is from this unification that the techniques of miracle efficacy, Sennin art of love making, and tantric yoga methods were introduced into Tachikawa.

The third is the method of drawing out power from “beyond” by breaking down your own boundaries.
Is it said that this method made many monks lose their self-control, power of reasoning, and moral values due to murder or eating meat, eating fish, or drinking alcohol (However it is theorized that this method may have not actually been put into practice by the Tachikawa Sect).

Through the combination of these three kinds of thoughts and methods the Tachikawa Sect considered the unification of “Dakini = Dainichi Buddha [Vairocana] = Amaterasu Oomikami” to be the ultimate goal.
Namely, they tried to achieve enlightenment by becoming one with the fundamental truths of the universe.
...uhhh Cas-ko-san, it seems like your followers are pretty wack... is everything gonna be all right...?

Do I also have to quote this?

The status of kami however changed dramatically according to the sect. At one extreme one was Shingon Buddhism's Ryōbu Shintō thinkers, who considered kami and buddhas equivalent in power and dignity.^[20] However, not all kami were emanations of some buddha. Some, often called jitsu no kami (実神 true kami), usually dangerous and angry, had no Buddhist counterpart. Among them were the tengu, or animals possessing magic, as the fox (kitsune) or Japanese raccoon dog (狸 tanuki)). Even these unholy and inferior "true kami" however attracted the attention of Ryōbu Shinto thinkers, which resulted in theories which declared them to be manifestations of Vairocana and Amaterasu. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shinbutsu-sh%C5%ABg%C5%8D)

I am a Buddhist following Theravada Buddhism, we worship Gautama Buddha and Nyorai. Our stance is that no Buddhas are superior to to the other. They are all the same. But that doesn't mean I should ignore the Shingon Buddhism school belief that was literally given to the audience by Mister Kinoko Nasu in the material book. If you think that I am saying a fictional character in a series being superior to the Buddha I worship IRL because I am bias when the information regarding Vaircana you can even google:

Vairocana (also Vairochana or Mahāvairocana, Sanskrit: वैरोचन) is a celestial buddha who is often interpreted, in texts like the Flower Garland Sutra, as the Dharma Bodyof the historical Buddha (Siddhartha Gautama). In Chinese, Korean, and Japanese Buddhism, Vairocana is also seen as the embodiment of the Buddhist concept of Emptiness. In the conception of the Five Wisdom Buddhas of Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism, Vairocana is at the centre and is considered a Primordial Buddha. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vairocana)

...then you actually offended me in a way. But it doesn't matter anyway, I get this kind of skeptical comments alot.

Pardon the ignorance, but I thought Buddhas were people who achieved enlightenment and broke free from the cycle of reincarnation, not literal deities?

Buddhism always have a very straight stance that there is no creator god, but they never said there are no deities (classified as Devas and Ten 天 - means heaven) or that deities cannot be Buddhas. That's why you have those like Sun Wukong becoming the Victorious Buddha in JTTW, or Xuanzang being the 2nd disciple of Nyorai (the source of her Divinity in nasuverse).

To us Buddhists, deities in other religions are equivalent beings of devas and Ten who still couldn't reach nirvana and free from karma. But obviously that line of thought is very offensive to the people of those religions. Therefore we had to compromise through syncretism. The 12 chief Hindu deities became guardians of Buddhism. Indra for example is called Taishakuten and widely worshipped in pagddas in Vietnam here. When spreading to Japan it also had to make peace with the local religions: Shinto. So you have syncretism attemps. Susanoo became syncretized with Indra/Taishakuten and Gozu Tennou was created. Amenominakanushi (the first kami who gave birth to the universe in Shinto) became Varuna/Suiten. Amaterasu became Vairocana and Dakini-ten. And that's where you have Shingon Buddhism stuffs. I didn't even know that was a thing until I read the material about Kiara's sex cult and tried to understand why Kiara called Tamamo her chief god and felt ashamed being scolded by Tamamo. That led me into extended researches on other Buddhism schools outside of my own.

Regardless, in the context of Nasuverse Bodhisattvas are deities of cosmic scale, and Bodhisattvas are Buddha candidates. Kannon for example can actually go to nirvana and join the other Buddhas there, but he/she (depends on which part of Asian you talk about) decided to stay behind and help all suffering beings.

[asterism42]

But does that apply to Tamamo, who has sealed away most of her powers?

[Lily Emilio]

What was the Akysys translation then? *sigh* Why does her information have to be so complicated?

Aksys and Marvelous USA used "fragment", as a matter of fact. They don't have Shinto researches beforehand, not everyone have time for that. I basically have to repeat the bunrei stuffs everytime it comes up so I got used to that lol.

[asterism42]

Also Tamamo is a Servant, who is only part of who she once was. A page from a book, I think is the analogy Celenike uses.

[Lily Emilio]

But does that apply to Tamamo, who is a fragment of Amaterasu who has sealed away most of her powers?

It does. Because that's the scale when she unseals all of the power, which she pretty much did in CCC and achieved what BB or Velber tried to do in an instant without any problem. I don't know why exactly you keep saying "sealing power" when all I talked about is when she unsealed all power, as Amaterasu's bunrei.

And again, the word is bunrei, not fragment. Tamamo is a clone of Amaterasu so as a matter of fact they have same scaling. I don't think I need to continuously repeat myself on this, you can search the FGO story and lore page for the extended multiple pages of bunrei discussions.

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Also Tamamo is a Servant, who is only part of who she once was. A page from a book, I think is the analogy Celenike uses.

And we're NOT talking about that. We're talking about mythology. We're talking about when Tamamo regains 9 tails form that puts her on Amaterasu scale which she literally did in CCC for a quick moment, as a deus ex machina tease from Nasu. Like, do you think I am saying servant Tamamo > Buddha lol? What is this ignorance?