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Thread: Questions, questions and more questions (READ THE OP FOR ANSWERS)

  1. #133141
    天衣無縫・狐耳系万能若奥さま Mizukume's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Asunder View Post
    I argued honestly with You and Caster because they showed they were more or less willing to do the same. I have no such obligation to you because you haven't posted anything worthwhile.
    More like you intentionally ignore my posts that BOTH Castor and You agreed with and even pointed you to those for the argument because you couldn't come up with any counter arguments. In fact, Castor basically answered your dumb question for me here:
    Quote Originally Posted by castor212 View Post
    if its the sword thats doing most of the heavy lifting, is it his physical feat exceeding normal human?
    Which, of course you also couldn't answer (or intentionally ignored). So I had to spell it out for you "No". Those are the feats of the weapons, not himself. He was breaking as he's doing those and try to keep up, which any other human would be like under the same circumstances.

    Basically you couldn't come up with anything so you try to question my understanding of the argument or read the VN to try and dismiss my credibility in this. Pretty standard rhetorical tactic, almost worked but nope.

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  2. #133142
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six Asunder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mizukume View Post
    More like you intentionally ignore my posts that BOTH Castor and You agreed with and even pointed you to those for the argument because you couldn't come up with any counter arguments. In fact, Castor basically answered your dumb question for me here:

    Which, of course you also couldn't answer (or intentionally ignored). So I had to spell it out for you "No". Those are the feats of the weapons, not himself. He was breaking as he's doing those and try to keep up, which any other human would be like under the same circumstances.

    Basically you couldn't come up with anything so you try to question my understanding of the argument or read the VN to try and dismiss my credibility in this. Pretty standard rhetorical tactic, almost worked but nope.
    You do know that the sword isn't literally doing the thing themselves right?
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  3. #133143
    鬼 Ogre-like You's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by castor212 View Post
    I guess what im trying to say is

    Copying fencing technique used by Kristin Vines with his hand be read from the fencing sword she used for a while in practicing: believable

    Copying Usain Bolt's running form from this pocket knife he put in his pocket as it got swung around by the running momentum: ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
    p much
    Quote Originally Posted by Canon View Post
    On You's tombstone it will read
    Quote Originally Posted by You View Post
    That's exaggerating my point.

  4. #133144
    O Beast of CaerbannogAAAAARRGH!!? castor212's Avatar
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    It may not doing it literally on its own, shirou still has, to, like, moves about and stuffs

    But that does not directly translate to Shirou himself doing purely Servant level feat with his own body without help from the sword too.

    Because the sword be doing the heavy lifting. The guy had to move , but the blade majorly helps him and he still got pummeled from the impact back, a la normal living being.
    Quote Originally Posted by mewarmo990 View Post
    you don't need to think about it that hard
    Quote Originally Posted by castor212 View Post
    I dont get it
    Quote Originally Posted by mewarmo990 View Post
    nothing makes sense

  5. #133145
    天衣無縫・狐耳系万能若奥さま Mizukume's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Asunder View Post
    You do know that the sword isn't literally doing the thing themselves right?
    You do understand "the sword doing most of the heavy lifting" means that it does most of the job while Shirou simply holds it and follow the movements right? It's like you give a soldier an automatic gatling gun and all the guy has to do is press the trigger and rotate it to different directions and shoot the targets. The gatling is doing most of the job.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by castor212 View Post
    It may not doing it literally on its own, shirou still has, to, like, moves about and stuffs

    But that does not directly translate to Shirou himself doing purely Servant level feat with his own body without help from the sword too.

    Because the sword be doing the heavy lifting.
    Pretty much my point. Inb4 he continues to ignore these.

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  6. #133146
    I don't die. I just kill. Arashi_Leonhart's Avatar
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    One for All
    Sword Smash

    oh wait my arm is broken now

  7. #133147
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six Asunder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mizukume View Post
    You do understand "the sword doing most of the heavy lifting" means that it does most of the job while Shirou simply holds it and follow the movements right? It's like you give a soldier an automatic gatling gun and all the guy has to do is press the trigger and rotate it to different directions and shoot the targets. The gatling is doing most of the job.

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    Pretty much my point. Inb4 he continues to ignore these.
    Where do you think the force to deal with blows from Hercules and Gil come from?
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  8. #133148
    鬼 Ogre-like You's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Asunder View Post
    Damage from projection is just inexperience while physical strain is less easy to deal with.



    Then you'd think that Shirou would have died the bunch of other times he reproduced stats tens of times greater than his. Why is Achilles a death sentence but not Hercules or King Arthur? And to get back to the first question, why couldn't EMIYA handle it?


    But if Shirou can't react to Gil's attacks then how could he know to try to dodge them? Shirou says that the sword is what reacts right after he goes and reacts.
    Yes, Shirou should have died from the wounds sustained by projecting Caliburn and Nine Lives Blade Works. The narrative makes it pretty clear his body is in terrible shape afterwards. It's because of Archer's Arm and Avalon that he was able to survive.

    Shirou tries to dodge Gilgamesh's attack and fails. But doesn't die because the sword blocks it.
    And the later on it says "I can't judge Gilgamesh's attacks, but this sword is able to"

    Which his fail of a dodge proves. Because if he could judge Gilgamesh's attacks, he would have succesfully dodged. Instead he was not able to judge Gilgamesh's attack and therefore failed a dodge and the sword had to save him.
    Quote Originally Posted by Canon View Post
    On You's tombstone it will read
    Quote Originally Posted by You View Post
    That's exaggerating my point.

  9. #133149
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six Trubo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Asunder View Post
    You do know that the sword isn't literally doing the thing themselves right?
    Are you serious? How many times does the same scene and text have to be linked where it explicitly states the sword is doing the thing for you to get that it is the sword doing the thing, not Shirou/Emiya?

    https://lparchive.org/Fatestay-night/Update%2078/

    "Wha? That sword is my…!?"
    Saber's voice is filled with blank amazement.
    She is staring at what I'm holding, which should not exist here.

    "Ah"
    Does the sword have a will of its own?
    "AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!"
    The golden sword does not stop and, as if pulled toward it, slashes through the giant's arm.
    The sword blocks the numerous blows smashing madly…!

    "…!"
    But this is it.
    I'm tossed away.
    As soon as my consciousness returns, the sword must have left everything in my hands.
    I am easily thrown away by the attacks I was easily blocking until now.

    "Haah"
    The senses in my arms are already gone. My wrist is about to rip off as I can see the red meat.

    "Kuh…!"
    My legs won't move. All my muscles must have stopped working.
    I can't stand up.
    I made the sword that surpasses Berserker.
    But that's all.
    As I am only a maker, I cannot handle the sword!
    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Asunder View Post
    Where do you think the force to deal with blows from Hercules and Gil come from?
    The weapon that Shirou projected, not Shirou.
    Quote Originally Posted by Arashi_Leonhart View Post
    Then I will ask that you pay closer attention
    Quote Originally Posted by Mcjon01 View Post
    So if I'm reading this right DP is saying that the feature almost everybody hates that is bad and makes the forum objectively worse will never go away because that would negatively impact another feature that nobody has ever used and most likely never will use just in case someday, someone wants to use it. Is that right?
    Quote Originally Posted by You View Post
    It's like if someone told me "make me a milkshake" and i was blind and they gave me the ingredients and I made a milkshake because milkshakes are good, but it turns out that milkshake was a bomb.

  10. #133150
    天衣無縫・狐耳系万能若奥さま Mizukume's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Asunder View Post
    Where do you think the force to deal with blows from Hercules and Gil come from?
    You do understand the basic concept of parrying an attack right? You don't need to showcase the force that directly match the opposing force. You only need a sufficient amount of force to apply a force enough to change the vector of the incoming attack.

    Oh and btw Aikido and Taichichuan are martial arts expertise in parrying, blocking and defending against force of greater scale, maybe you should check them out.
    Last edited by Mizukume; April 17th, 2018 at 03:11 PM.

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  11. #133151
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six Asunder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mizukume View Post
    You do understand the basic concept of parrying an attack right? You don't need to showcase the force that directly match the opposing force. Aikido and Taichichuan are martial arts expertise in parrying, blocking and defending against force of greater scale, maybe you should check them out.
    So you're saying that a regular human has the force to parry blows form demigods ghosts?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Trubo View Post
    Are you serious? How many times does the same scene and text have to be linked where it explicitly states the sword is doing the thing for you to get that it is the sword doing the thing, not Shirou/Emiya?

    https://lparchive.org/Fatestay-night/Update%2078/









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    The weapon that Shirou projected, not Shirou.
    I swing to follow the sword, and as a result, I can block his attacks.
    Did you really think that the sword was just blocking the attacks on it's own and Shirou was just holding onto it because he loves swords that much?

    The sword has memories and experience but it needs Shirou to swing it with the strength and speed to match those memories, which he does even though he can't handle it. It's the same principle as HF Shirou doing stunts because the arm is convincing him he can.
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  12. #133152
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six Trubo's Avatar
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    Do I really think that what the text makes abundantly clear is indeed what's happening? Yes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Arashi_Leonhart View Post
    Then I will ask that you pay closer attention
    Quote Originally Posted by Mcjon01 View Post
    So if I'm reading this right DP is saying that the feature almost everybody hates that is bad and makes the forum objectively worse will never go away because that would negatively impact another feature that nobody has ever used and most likely never will use just in case someday, someone wants to use it. Is that right?
    Quote Originally Posted by You View Post
    It's like if someone told me "make me a milkshake" and i was blind and they gave me the ingredients and I made a milkshake because milkshakes are good, but it turns out that milkshake was a bomb.

  13. #133153
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six Asunder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trubo View Post
    Do I really think that what the text makes abundantly clear is indeed what's happening? Yes.
    Well then I guess Shirou should have just let Caliburn sword fight Gil on it's own. I don't know why he felt the need to swing at servant speeds and strength if the sword was doing it all on it's own.
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  14. #133154
    天衣無縫・狐耳系万能若奥さま Mizukume's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Asunder View Post
    So you're saying that a regular human has the force to parry blows form demigods ghosts?
    Yes, especially when the sword is doing the specific technique to parry and Shirou actively trying to dodge as well. The quote even stated that the sword knows about how to deal with these kinds of attacks, it knew the most efficient way to parry. In martial art (especially sword techniques) there is this saying "Four tael (200 grams) beats a thousand kati (half a ton)" (四两拔千斤) in China, a basic idea of parrying attacks with minimal force. When you need to use a huge amount of force to parry, that's no longer parry, because while parrying one can even plan for counter attack.

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  15. #133155
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six Asunder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mizukume View Post
    Yes, especially when the sword is doing the specific technique to parry and Shirou actively trying to dodge as well. The quote even stated that the sword knows about how to deal with these kinds of attacks, it knew the most efficient way to parry. In martial art (especially sword techniques) there is this saying "Four tael (200 grams) beats a thousand kati (half a ton)" (四两拔千斤) in China, a basic idea of parrying attacks with minimal force.
    So in your head, shirou could just toss any smuck a caliburn and they could do the same thing.
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  16. #133156
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six Trubo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Asunder View Post
    Well then I guess Shirou should have just let Caliburn sword fight Gil on it's own. I don't know why he felt the need to swing at servant speeds and strength if the sword was doing it all on it's own.
    Probably because Shirou wasn't the one swinging Caliburn. Caliburn was fighting to make up for Shirou's lack of experience, which is a problem when Shirou physically can't hold it/keep up with it.

    There's only so many times that the multiple instances of this text that state this can be linked before one can conclude that anyone incapable of understanding what is stated simply doesn't want to believe what's written.
    Quote Originally Posted by Arashi_Leonhart View Post
    Then I will ask that you pay closer attention
    Quote Originally Posted by Mcjon01 View Post
    So if I'm reading this right DP is saying that the feature almost everybody hates that is bad and makes the forum objectively worse will never go away because that would negatively impact another feature that nobody has ever used and most likely never will use just in case someday, someone wants to use it. Is that right?
    Quote Originally Posted by You View Post
    It's like if someone told me "make me a milkshake" and i was blind and they gave me the ingredients and I made a milkshake because milkshakes are good, but it turns out that milkshake was a bomb.

  17. #133157
    O Beast of CaerbannogAAAAARRGH!!? castor212's Avatar
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    He can produce the strength to wield the weapons yeah, based on Nine Bullet Revolver scene, but really, nobody is saying the swords literally move on its own beyind just joking around

    Its just that when we got pretty explicit scenes that the sword itself can trace le memories of swinging/blocking on its own and just dragging shirou's arm, with Shirou's own consciousness late to even follow, a guy gotta admit that perhaps beyond producing the memory movement and the strength of the swing, Shirou's arm is just moving in normal capacity.

    Also bit out of track, but i just checked GO mats and Herc's real Nine Lives is a madrush of 100 attacks.

    Nine Lives Blade Works got 8.

    Mm, Im more convinced that when it comes to certain things (such as 100 slash rush or mad sonic sprint), even projection has its limits.
    Quote Originally Posted by mewarmo990 View Post
    you don't need to think about it that hard
    Quote Originally Posted by castor212 View Post
    I dont get it
    Quote Originally Posted by mewarmo990 View Post
    nothing makes sense

  18. #133158
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six Trubo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Asunder View Post
    So in your head, shirou could just toss any smuck a caliburn and they could do the same thing.
    Projection just recreates the NP, based on the steps Shirou follows. So yes, anyone could pick up Caliburn and end up in the exact same state as a Shirou without Avalon.
    Quote Originally Posted by Arashi_Leonhart View Post
    Then I will ask that you pay closer attention
    Quote Originally Posted by Mcjon01 View Post
    So if I'm reading this right DP is saying that the feature almost everybody hates that is bad and makes the forum objectively worse will never go away because that would negatively impact another feature that nobody has ever used and most likely never will use just in case someday, someone wants to use it. Is that right?
    Quote Originally Posted by You View Post
    It's like if someone told me "make me a milkshake" and i was blind and they gave me the ingredients and I made a milkshake because milkshakes are good, but it turns out that milkshake was a bomb.

  19. #133159
    O Beast of CaerbannogAAAAARRGH!!? castor212's Avatar
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    Inb4 copying heartstabbing gaebolg becomes pancreasstabbing gae bolg
    Quote Originally Posted by mewarmo990 View Post
    you don't need to think about it that hard
    Quote Originally Posted by castor212 View Post
    I dont get it
    Quote Originally Posted by mewarmo990 View Post
    nothing makes sense

  20. #133160
    天衣無縫・狐耳系万能若奥さま Mizukume's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Asunder View Post
    So in your head, shirou could just toss any smuck a caliburn and they could do the same thing.
    No, if he gives me a Caliburn I can't do the same thing because for once I'm too weak and slow to keep up with all the dodging. But yes I can swing it around and parry with my expertise in martial art. But that is because I am below average in physical capabilities even for Asian standard. You give it to an athletic guy i.e those who compete in the Ninja Warrior competition that will do just fine and even better.

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