Pretty much. The only real mistake Medea made in UBW was not using a Second CS to break Saber straight away because she got off on watching her suffer. (Of course if she had then she'd promptly wind up on the end of a Gilgamesh interrupt, but she couldn't know that)Originally Posted by AstralSword
She would not need to break Saber with a CS if they had Shirou killed on the spot when rule breaker was used. Not to mention Gilgamesh was kind of 'not so interested' in Saber in UBW (or HF, for that matter).
After Saber's will had been broken, she could just use the strategy below to win (or not, as I can picture a conter-argument to this in a few minutes).
Killing shirou would not help in making saber want to help caster. It would just make her resist even harder.
"An ideal is only an ideal after all. As long as you embrace that ideal, the friction with reality will continue to increase. So you will someday face reality and will have to pay for your compromises"
???? Why would killing Shirou have made Saber more compliant?
I don't exactly get the logic here. Heck, if she kills Shirou, Medea would probably need a CS to get Saber to come along with her in the first place.
EDIT: beaten
Come visit Mobius Space whereand post Type-Moon stuffquite rarelytranslators gather
I dunno about that. Hope is the last thing that keeps people standing. The only reason Saber did not fall for Shirou in Heaven's Feel is because she was taken out too soon.
The whole "see your loved one get killed in front of you" breaks a person's mind entirely. Anger comes only after, and that time in-between would be perfect to manipulate Saber the way she needed.
I am not considering any of the character's psique in here. I am just considering what they could acomplish had them acted utterly ruthless, no matter the cost.
That kind of beast does not. kkkkkkkkSpoiler:
Considering only the Riders' mounts.
This is a Saber that already dealt with the fall of her kingdom. I don't think this would apply.
Come visit Mobius Space whereand post Type-Moon stuffquite rarelytranslators gather
I don’t even think saber is even close enough to shirou to ‘break’ by seeing him die. Not to mention she’s a jaded person who’s been through a lot of shit. Caster barely has control over her as is, making her mad definitely won’t help.
Even if she was ‘broken’ by shirou’s death there still wouldn’t be anything caster can use to instantly control her.
"An ideal is only an ideal after all. As long as you embrace that ideal, the friction with reality will continue to increase. So you will someday face reality and will have to pay for your compromises"
Arthuria never had an equal on terms of loved ones. Lancelot and Guinevere were there, but as subjects, not as friends/love interests.
Her sole reason to seek the Holy Grail is to fullfill an oath. Well, after Shirou is killed, her secondary oath to protect him (act as his sword and shield etc) is turned to dust.
Killing Shirou would mean a much deeper wound to Saber than you are implying. But I know where you are getting.
Imprisoning Shirou was done before and that could stir up a rescue by Tohsaka, which would cause even more problems.
Edit: Oh, and I forgot to mention that if you leave him be, there is a very high % the UBW route will be triggered, rendering all preparations on my part useless.
Last edited by AstralSword; May 14th, 2018 at 04:17 PM.
Artoria has known Shirou for maybe the better part of two weeks. I don't think she's that much more deeply connected to him than the people she spent the better part of her life with outside the Fate route, post-heracles.
Last edited by Megas; May 14th, 2018 at 04:24 PM.
Come visit Mobius Space whereand post Type-Moon stuffquite rarelytranslators gather
That is exactely why I included her sense of duty into the fold. If not for love, her honor would mean a lot in this.
But now I am dangerously going far more than I wanted into the speculation world.
The thing is, if preparations are made to ensure no interference from Shirou and Tohsaka are made until Berserker is dealt with, Caster can (with a very high probability of success) win this thing.
....As for what she would do against Gilgamesh, that is a different matter. No matter how skilled a fighter Kuzuki is, there is no way to melee Gilgamesh. Shirou's skirmish against him inside UBW was a one-time-ever thing, surrounded by plot shields.
Not even his gigantic ego would guarantee Shirou a kill on even terms. Ever.
Edit: And by kill I meant Shirou cutting off his arm. That is a loss, and a very ugly one at that.
Last edited by AstralSword; May 14th, 2018 at 04:33 PM. Reason: typo. And "possibility". Geez
This one?
I still fail to understand why Medea killing Shirou results in anything but "fuck you, you die now" and Medea needing uses of multiple CS to ensure Saber doesn't just murder her right there.
With Saber's MR, I don't really see Medea's magic working on her outside of CS's unless Saber actively lets herself be put in that situation (kinda like in UBW).
Come visit Mobius Space whereand post Type-Moon stuffquite rarelytranslators gather
Besides letting him go (which would result in a rescue attempt and pretty much go with UBW events) there are only two other options:
Imprisoning him and using him as a hostage to make Saber cooperate (which could result in a rescue attempt by Tohsaka, but that is not 100% either) or killing him, which would prevent any rescue attempts at all (since Tohsaka would not take Archer alone to face Caster, Kuzuki and Saber) and this could either break Saber up thru shattering of her oath and honor or make her adamant over everything else.
The latter is a gamble, but if it works there is no risk at all to get the job done.
Last edited by AstralSword; May 14th, 2018 at 04:46 PM.
....I, uhhh, don't particularly think the latter situation is viable is what I am getting at.
Like, Saber's lived through worse failures.
It's a far bigger gamble than the alternative.
Also Tohsaka literally did take Archer alone to fight Caster, Kuzuki, and Saber in UBW. Archer just betrayed. I don't think Tohsaka knew going in that Medea hadn't fully taken control yet either.
Last edited by Megas; May 14th, 2018 at 04:55 PM.
Come visit Mobius Space whereand post Type-Moon stuffquite rarelytranslators gather
I mean killing Shirou isn't in itself a dumb move because lord knows that boy is more trouble than he's worth, but the idea that killing him will make Saber pliable is just wrong.
No, the smart thing to do is to Double-CS Saber right away (Caster can make Pseudo-CS so she could afford to use them) to subdue her, then hack Shirou up and use him as a projection wand like in that one bad end.
Though that still leaves the minor issue of Gil to contend with.
I mean, it's also a mistake to think that it makes Tohsaka less likely to come at her.
Rin wants to win the war, she's not going to avoid going after Medea because Shirou's dead. Heck, if anything that just makes EMIYA less likely to betray since he'd get nothing out of it.
It's not like Herk's a particularly easier target to go after.
Last edited by Megas; May 14th, 2018 at 05:07 PM.
Come visit Mobius Space whereand post Type-Moon stuffquite rarelytranslators gather
Quite true, but I don't know that there's much Rin and Archer can do against Medea+Kuzuki+Saber. When they go after them in UBW it's because they're counting on taking Caster out quickly before she's got Saber under control. They'd need another factor (maybe a team-up with Lancer?) To stand a chance.
And yeah, Herk is broken. There's a reason why in Apoc they banned summoning him for the Greek mini-wars.
I mean, I would actually think that ya, Lancer would probably show himself to Rin in the event Shirou dies. If Lancer knows about the snake trick going in from Rin, I actually don't think they'll lose.
Basically EMIYA, Rin, and Cu knowing about the snake trick vs Medea, Kuzuki, and Saber seems like fairly good odds for team Rin to me.
An EMIYA not intent on betraying might try to convince Rin to approach the situation in a way aside from direct confrontation as well, but I'm not sure what he could come up with.
Last edited by Megas; May 14th, 2018 at 05:26 PM.
Come visit Mobius Space whereand post Type-Moon stuffquite rarelytranslators gather
Appropriate.
Is this able to overcome the power of Excalibur?
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