Questions, questions and more questions (READ THE OP FOR ANSWERS)

[Deathhappens]

It also seems to give them general knowledge of myths given Diarmuid recognized Excalibur even though he should predate Saber.

Wasn't that more to do about all spirits on the Throne of Heroes more or less knowing about each other? Or did I make that up?

[Hawkeye]

So how does the grail acquire this information? Also who designed this portion of the grail?

I'm not sure it's a function of the Grail directly. Since the Fuyuki system was apparently modeled after the Grand Servant system employed by the Counter Force or whatever, it seems like it's a set function of that system that Zouken then adapted. That's just my theory though, I don't know if there's anything that strictly supports that, but from what I know, there's nothing that really explains how the information is gathered or delegated either.

[SirGauoftheSquareTable]

I'm not sure it's a function of the Grail directly. Since the Fuyuki system was apparently modeled after the Grand Servant system employed by the Counter Force or whatever, it seems like it's a set function of that system that Zouken then adapted. That's just my theory though, I don't know if there's anything that strictly supports that, but from what I know, there's nothing that really explains how the information is gathered or delegated either.

It's always explained as the Grail giving them info, but that may just be a function of being a Servant since even Servants under different systems gain auto-knowledge of modern life.

[pinetree]

Similarly, in Shuten case, the actual event of her deeds in Japan is during Heian era, however historians traced similarities of her origin and story of her extermination way back to a chapter in Shiji (Records of the Grand Historian) written by one of China's most famous historian Sima Qian during ~100 BCE. They also found traces of her motif in the novel 補江総白猿伝 (reads: Bujiangzongbaiyuanyun...I think) during the Tang dynasty (around 618-907 AD) as well as 陳巡権梅嶺失妻記 (reads: Chenxunquanmeilingshiqiji...I guess) of the Ming dynasty. One of the speculations also stated that the story might also be inspired by elements back in China's Northern and Southern dynasties era (420-589 AD).

Japanese scholars just love these connections.

Thanks a lot for the answer Mizukume, I gotta say I'm surprised the connection is from China, I expected Índia since they've equated Rakshasas and Onis before.
Say, is there anything interesting in these Chinese texts that they might approach on the future or just similar stories?
Furthermore, does Emperor Sutoku have similar connections? Would be interesting to have all three great yokai affecting the world at large instead of just Japan.

[Rafflesiac]

Sutoku, who's actually Venus, who's actually Lucifer, who's actually...

[SirGauoftheSquareTable]

So guys, in regards to Shinji raping Sakura, is that ONLY canon in the HF VN, or am I just deluding myself? I ask because I know the HF manga watered that down/excluded it, and I'm not sure about other routes or the Ufotable movies because it seems quite a bit much.

[pinetree]

You're deluding yourself.
He's been doing it for at least a year before FSN.

[SirGauoftheSquareTable]

You're deluding yourself.
He's been doing it for at least a year before FSN.

Ah, then Shinji surviving UBW is a WAY more bitter pill to swallow. That, and I wonder if Lost Butterfly and the next HF movie will ever mention it?

[Kotonoha]

I know the HF manga watered that down/excluded it,

Isn't there a part where he drags her to the bedroom, that's more explicit than anything in the VN by that point in the story

[Lily Emilio]

Thanks a lot for the answer Mizukume, I gotta say I'm surprised the connection is from China, I expected Índia since they've equated Rakshasas and Onis before.
Say, is there anything interesting in these Chinese texts that they might approach on the future or just similar stories?
Furthermore, does Emperor Sutoku have similar connections? Would be interesting to have all three great yokai affecting the world at large instead of just Japan.

A lot of elements from Japanese myths are inspired from Chinese myths as well as the effort to raise the status of Japan compare to China by emperors back then. For example China ever since Qin Shin Huang thought of their country as the center of the world, so they used the term 中国 (Central Country) to call their land, it is used even now as official name for China. Japan took that term for themselves as 葦原中国 (Ashihara no Nakatsukuni) which equates Japan as the center of the universe (in Nihon Shoki Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi govern the entire universe together lol, much wank). Basically they always try to one-up China and adopt things from there.

So far, considering how Nasu explained feng shui shenanigans in Tamamo's 3rd SG in CCC, I would also add the Shanhaijing (Classic of Mountain and Seas) to the list of Chinese texts that might get referenced, because it is the book that described all type of yokai in ancient China, one of the earliest geographic book back in 4th century BCE. There are actually quite a lot of connections and similarities in other sources too:

- I said this in the FGO mats topic b4, but no hurt repeating this again. Chinese monks considered Daijizaiten (Shiva) to be living in the Kunlun Mountains with his waifu (Parvati). Coincidentally, the guardian goddess of Kunlun - Xiwangmu is sometimes described to have ferocious or even demonic nature, which fit Kali/Durga (some of Parvati's aspects). Xiwangmu's attendant is the nine tailed fox deity Huxian (sometimes as her children) who is Chinese version of Inari no Okami, a fox god closely related to Amaterasu. This supported the Shiva = Izanagi shenanigans, even before Japan went full fusion mode.

- Xihe, Chinese sun goddess, was said to have 10 childs, 9 of them were killed by Hou Yi in the legend. These childs are said to be carried by 3-legged crows. These crows are actually symbol of the sun in a very ancient sun religion of China dated back to ~10k-12k BCE at most (that number alone is already suspicious lol). Later on Japan adopted this legend and Xihe is considered an inspiration for a certain sun goddess figure coughAmaterasucough. The 3-legged crow ended up being the messenger of the sun goddess - the Yata-garasu.

- They found various cave paintings in China date back to around the 7th century (iirc) featuring a sun god wearing armor and ride a chariot. This is speculated to be Surya. I mean, sun god, rides chariot, has an armor as very iconic, it's clearly Surya (or maybe Karna idk, can't read minds of ancient nerds). And speaking of Karna, the birth story of Emperor Oujin had him being born with armor (a bow gauntlet to be exact) stick to his body, very resemblance of Karna. But I don't think TM would go that route.

- A lot of yokai stories are inspired from China, even the yokai are mostly from China then got redefined in Japan.

As for Sutoku he is an actual Emperor who got played dirty by Emperor Toba (the guy who got cursed by Tamamo), so him turning Tengu and so on is a fabrication of the Heian era politicians for the most part. However the tengu itself is already mentioned in the Shanhaijing I said above (told u this thing is useful as hell), also in the Shiji book that had the Shuten stuffs, as well as several other Chinese books. I doubt Nasu would go the same route like Tamamo and Shuten with him because he is an actual emperor. He might get innocent monster EX or something like Vlad's Dracula.

[You]

One thing I've wanted to know for a long time is whether Cu's Gae Bolg's Causality Reversal is due to the spear itself or due to his heritage as a grandson of Balor? Also, how do Scathach's Gae Bolgs work? Do they also have Causality Reversal or not?

Cu stabs real funky through technique, and Scathach hasn't ripped that off yet.

From what I recall (I.E. Don't quote me on this) the causality reversal was something he learned as a technique, cause the spear's true purpose was as a thrown weapon.

As for Alternate, It apparently does something similar to Cu's in that the first strike locks the target in place in some bullshit application of quantum physics I guess, while the second blow is the same as Cu's thrown version.

It's a technique he invents by combining with his divine heritage (it's from Lugh actually iirc, not Balor).

Scathach Gae Bolg doesn't have it. And because she is a shit aimer with no aimbot like Cu, she has to use two spear, one to pin the target and one to throw at him

sorry where did it specifically said it has something to do with his divine heritage again

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far as i remember i only know extra mats being the closest one, and even then it doesnt exactly said that, tho inference can be made

Yeah it was my inference based on Extra mats

"Don't worry. I didn't hit his heart. But the curse is still there.
Even you should know the curse of this lance. This is the 'lance of cause and effect', that reverses the cause and the effect. The one cursed by this thing cannot change their fate unless they have great luck."

The one cursed cannot heal and bears the wound until they die. As long as this lance exists."

It would seem the original gae bolg does have the causality reversal. Since Scathach was trying to make a spear that would kill her. The causality reversal is what makes this weapon unhealable.
What Cu did was use the causality reversal aspect into the heart-hitting aimbot curse with a localized explosion of thorns.
It seems like the original use for Cu was just a throwing anti-army and all it did was if it hit you, you couldn't heal the wounds but the reason why it couldn't heal the wounds was causality reversal.

mcdoc

Also, it's a bit of a digression, but this version of Gae Bolg is something Lancer came up with himself.
The original Gae Bolg is actually a throwing weapon, and is anti-army rather than anti-personnel.

[pinetree]

.

Really interesting stuff, thanks for the detailed answer as always.

[fire_mountain_30]

since Protection from Wind is described as a basic skill for people of the dessert, shouldnt all hassans have it even if it doesnt show up on their mats?

[pinetree]

since Protection from Wind is described as a basic skill for people of the dessert, shouldnt all hassans have it even if it doesnt show up on their mats?

We know that at least 100 Personas has it, Asako mentions it in Camelot.

[fire_mountain_30]

so what you are saying is...

that gramps can ride explosions?

[Iceblade44]

so what you are saying is...

that gramps can ride explosions?

He can just tank it. Regardless Hassan as a Grand at least seemed to have some wind-manipulation powers, that he could control sandstorms.

Also as I'm bored I'm just gonna ask a simple free for all question. Now in Fate we know that the strongest and most famous get lumped in a group and called Top Servants. What purpose they have outside of the Moon Cell who knows but it does appear in FGO. The question I'm wondering who among the plenty amount of Servant's who do you think is a Top Servant? Just curious on who you think Nasu would drop the title on next. So far the ones we know are Artoria, Iskandar, Jeanne, Gilgamesh, Scatach, Arjuna, Karna, Romulus, Cu Chulainn. I think that's it. I'm asking this mainly out of boredom but who else you think is one the list. The definate ones I can think of is.

-Herk
-Achilles
-Sigurd
-Ozzy
-Rama
- And the Grand candidates(King Hassan, Merlin, Solomon)
-Buddha
- and maybe Fionn, tho not likely as Lancer

Less definate
-Siegfried: he's supposed to be equal to Sigurd both in ability and role even tho he hasn't had a good showing by himself. Well if Cu and Jeanne can make I'm sure he can.
-Beowulf. Role wise he fits even tho he has had even a worse showing. I have him here mostly for the comment in America where he and Arjuna were both equated with each other as equal heroes of renown. That they were seen as the same calibur.
-Ivan. He is ridiculously powerful by Lostbelt shenanigans he would fit tho I have doubts whether he would actually count as a Top, but the comments repeatedly made about him being such a great hero makes me think he would be one regardless. Maybe.
-Vlad. His Romania/Vampire incarnation certainly. Whatever of the two both portray Vlad as a very strong HS. Both in ability and in role. His Extra verse version tho while strong makes me doubt.
-I want to say Nobunaga but we'll you know...

That's all I could come up in my head anyway on this idea. Think of anyone I missed?

[Zurvan]

I'd say Herk, Achilles, Ozy and Rama are likely

[Deathhappens]

Off the top of my head, Lance, Caesar (the good version we haven't seen yet, whatever it is), Ishtar/Eresh/Quetz, and I guess since Jeanne is in, Jalter?

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Zurvan, was that always your title and sig or did you lose a bet or something?

[Zurvan]

Tobias showed me the light, Saber is great

(Admins can do fun things)

[Iceblade44]

Off the top of my head, Lance, Caesar (the good version we haven't seen yet, whatever it is), Ishtar/Eresh/Quetz, and I guess since Jeanne is in, Jalter?

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Zurvan, was that always your title and sig or did you lose a bet or something?

Quertz I can see tho I have my doubts on the other Goddesses.

Also doubt Lancelot. I mean what exactly qualifies as a Top confuses me. Strength does seem to be necessary but also fame and/or role in history. At least that was the case for them all except for Scathach but then again she is Star for some reason so I have no idea. Regardless what I'm saying here is that while Lancelot is there strongest and bet my ten cent that Nasu would call a more central knight, that I mean the most central knight, Galahad if he had to pick one of the KoRT for it.