Questions, questions and more questions (READ THE OP FOR ANSWERS)

[forumghost]

Eh, Beo himself is a 2k year old mystery but he's still susceptible to punching.

Anyway my take on phantasmal race mystery is that individual age + mystery of the age from which the species originates + modifiers such as divinity constitute their magic/mystery resistance. If we consider the legend of the vampire as imagined by humanity the starting point then the mystery of it as a species is relatively newish?

I mean if you think about it DA are just people with Moon-HIV so that makes sense that it'd take a while for them to build up mystery. After all that's not that mysterious compared to a Dragon or something.

[Leftovers]

I mean if you think about it DA are just people with Moon-HIV so that makes sense that it'd take a while for them to build up mystery. After all that's not that mysterious compared to a Dragon or something.

The people with moonjuice in them gain powerlevels depending on the powerlevel of the moonperson that bit them, which is another factor entirely (ie. not all of them have moon cancer). The fact that Dead Apostle is a catchall term for both the vampires turned by other vampires (and may have moonjuice in them) and the vampires that became vampires through magical research (and have no moonjuice in them) is a true can of worms, but I think it at least means their species doesn't get a mystery rateup simply because some Dead Apostles are old as dirt.

tangent

Actually it was what the conversation with Cruor was initially about. It seems that beyond a mention of DA possessing "the original blood" - presumably being turned by a TA - there's no essential difference between a DA that was turned by another vampire and a DA that became a DA through their magical research. They're both called Dead Apostles, can't cross water, are discomforted by sunlight, ???have powers tied to the phases of the moon??? (if anything this would be a trait only bitten vampires would have through their connection to True Ancestors, and granted iirc we explicitly see it in Roa, who is one, and not in Nrvnqsr, who isn't one) and take in foreign genetic material to rebuild their degenerating bodies. It's as if whether you take the long road of getting bitten -> Ghoul -> Living Dead -> Vampire -> Dead Apostle or doing research and using your magecraft or some magic potion like Noritaka to become a Dead Apostle, the end result is the same: a being called Dead Apostle that possesses an incomplete immortality in the ability to reconstruct its body by taking in foreign DNA, give or take a bonus modifier of being directly turned by a True Ancestor. Which raises important questions such as 1) do magi-turned-DA possess the same physiological characteristics as vampire-turned-DA, 2) if no why is there no distinction made between them under the shared label of Dead Apostle (then again why is spider and dog listed as Dead Apostle Ancestors simply because they ate some vampires and acquired bloodsucking tendencies without being physiologically Dead Apostles, maybe it just doesn't matter), and 3) where does the Dead Apostle's rejection of human history derive from; do both kinds of Dead Apostles possess it, and what does it mean about the nature of the species itself?

but the answer could very well be that it doesn't matter at all, dead apostles are dead apostles whether they achieved this state of being - however it is defined - by drinking some shady potion they found in a shed or being turned by king crimson himself

[SirGauoftheSquareTable]

The people with moonjuice in them gain powerlevels depending on the powerlevel of the moonperson that bit them, which is another factor entirely (ie. not all of them have moon cancer). The fact that Dead Apostle is a catchall term for both the vampires turned by other vampires (and may have moonjuice in them) and the vampires that became vampires through magical research (and have no moonjuice in them) is a true can of worms, but I think it at least means their species doesn't get a mystery rateup simply because some Dead Apostles are old as dirt.

tangent

Actually it was what the conversation with Cruor was initially about. It seems that beyond a mention of DA possessing "the original blood" - presumably being turned by a TA - there's no essential difference between a DA that was turned by another vampire and a DA that became a DA through their magical research. They're both called Dead Apostles, can't cross water, are discomforted by sunlight, ???have powers tied to the phases of the moon??? (if anything this would be a trait only bitten vampires would have through their connection to True Ancestors, and granted iirc we explicitly see it in Roa, who is one, and not in Nrvnqsr, who isn't one) and take in foreign genetic material to rebuild their degenerating bodies. It's as if whether you take the long road of getting bitten -> Ghoul -> Living Dead -> Vampire -> Dead Apostle or doing research and using your magecraft or some magic potion like Noritaka to become a Dead Apostle, the end result is the same: a being called Dead Apostle that possesses an incomplete immortality in the ability to reconstruct its body by taking in foreign DNA, give or take a bonus modifier of being directly turned by a True Ancestor. Which raises important questions such as 1) do magi-turned-DA possess the same physiological characteristics as vampire-turned-DA, 2) if no why is there no distinction made between them under the shared label of Dead Apostle (then again why is spider and dog listed as Dead Apostle Ancestors simply because they ate some vampires and acquired bloodsucking tendencies without being physiologically Dead Apostles, maybe it just doesn't matter), and 3) where does the Dead Apostle's rejection of human history derive from; do both kinds of Dead Apostles possess it, and what does it mean about the nature of the species itself?

but the answer could very well be that it doesn't matter at all, dead apostles are dead apostles whether they achieved this state of being - however it is defined - by drinking some shady potion they found in a shed or being turned by king crimson himself

It just works.

[You]

"Well, we'll change the topic, but the Dead Apostles were originally human.
There are a few cases where they became vampires through their own magical research, but the majority of them were humans who had their blood sucked.
They are immortal, but they can't last forever. They can only be immortal if they drink the blood of others.
Didn't I say their immortality was imperfect? If they can't feed on humans then their immortality is gone."

I think those who turned themselves into Dead Apostles were actually trying to turn themselves into Dead Apostles and that's why they have DA attributes.
I don't think they were like, "imma drink a vampire potion" and ended up with DA attributes. They sought to become DAs for whatever reason but didn't want to be bound to a sire.

[Leftovers]

This doesn't say much considering "Dead Apostle" is synonymous with "final-stage vampire" insofar as "vampire" denotes Dead Apostles and the bloodsuckers that they create specifically. Maybe if it was a broader category that included human-shaped bloodsuckers or however the lamyros was called (and Zouken kinda maybe I guess?) the distinction would have a point, but a magus aiming for that angle of immortality doesn't exactly have another bloodsucking choice other than Dead Apostle (which was why Noritaka was trying to do away with the bloodsucking impulse of DA). And then the question is how you can use bee or bird magic to replicate the effects of moonjuice on the human soul. Although, hmm, I suppose that could have been studied.

[You]

And then the question is how you can use bee or bird magic to replicate the effects of moonjuice on the human soul.

isn't that what they call R&D.
But honestly they probably just googled "bee mysticism, symbology, occult"

[fire_mountain_30]

i have been confused about the Velber regarding the language used to describe their origins sometimes as well as the way people talk about them

when they say they come "from outside of space itself" do they mean that they come from a different dimension or that they just come from deep space?

[Historia]

kiara's mating hole

[All fictions]

its what EMIYA says in Extra

Wasn't it just about vampires in modern literature following Dracula?

Archer: Vampires were immortalized in the 20th century horror pantheon, but they’re relatively new monsters.
Archer: At least, the modern conception of vampires is new, though similar monsters have always existed.
Archer: The particular image of vampires as lords of the night comes to us courtesy of Bram Stoker.
Archer: This conception, of course, is as fictional as the Dracula novel.
Archer: Bram Stoker’s vampires immediately rewrote the public’s imagination when it came to“bloodsuckers.”
Archer: How ironic that vampires surpassed the popularity of werewolves and witches, which are older.

Archer: Vampires are based on werewolves- It’s a fine example of the successor usurping the predecessor.
Archer: Our opponent this time is the model for the modern vampire.

[Reign]

Since when was EMIYA an expert on vamps and werewolves?

Shirou recognized Gilgamesh right away just from the idea of "dude who has everything in a vault", so it seems like he's just a mythology nerd.

[Rafflesiac]

i have been confused about the Velber regarding the language used to describe their origins sometimes as well as the way people talk about them

when they say they come "from outside of space itself" do they mean that they come from a different dimension or that they just come from deep space?

They're ME Reapers.

[forumghost]

They're ME Reapers.

Archimedes: "Ah yes, 'Velber'. We have dismissed that claim."

[fire_mountain_30]

They're ME Reapers.

well yeah but that doesnt clarify if they are extradimensional or not

[Rafflesiac]

A quick google search says Reapers aren't extradimensional, just hermits and thus the Velber are the same.

[Zork Knight]

So what exactly comes with a Master-Servant relationship beyond being able to supply maryoku easily?

[You]

So what exactly comes with a Master-Servant relationship beyond being able to supply maryoku easily?

you can sense each other's feelingz too

[Shadupo01]

Guys I wanted to ask, is Ozymandias a mage and from his 2nd interlude and from fragments it seems that he has some kind of clairvoyance which is similar to Gil’s because he can see through other worlds which he said how dare Arthur Proto to hide from where his eyes do not reach and also in fragments he had a premonition about his battle demise that’s why he wanted to end the battle with the divine punishment.

[SirGauoftheSquareTable]

you can sense each other's feelingz too

And memories too, right?

[You]

Guys I wanted to ask, is Ozymandias a mage and from his 2nd interlude and from fragments it seems that he has some kind of clairvoyance which is similar to Gil’s because he can see through other worlds which he said how dare Arthur Proto to hide from where his eyes do not reach and also in fragments he had a premonition about his battle demise that’s why he wanted to end the battle with the divine punishment.

He can probably be summoned as a Caster.
He's as much of a magus as Gilgamesh is.

[Reign]

And memories too, right?

You can see your Servant's past in dreams yeah.