Questions, questions and more questions (READ THE OP FOR ANSWERS)

[Arashi_Leonhart]

once again people wanting to wank archer when he's not about the wanking but about the using skillfully

heh

[Raylen Cypher]

At what point does "Read the VN" eventually become 'spam & advertisement'...

[Asunder]

once again people wanting to wank archer when he's not about the wanking but about the using skillfully

heh

I don't think I've heard one person that talks about about how weak archer is, actually acknowledge that he could do anything other than die from a stiff breeze.

BP Calabolg? Obviously any servant could easily get out of range of the giant cemetery destroying explosions and then go to wherever EMIYA is and kill him before he could do anything.
Crane Wings? The only way that would harm a hair on any servant is if they stood still and didn't move a muscle.
Swords skills that Berserker went sane for a moment to talk about how much he wanted to fight against? Utterly useless.

[Mcjon01]

I mean can you blame them all Emiya ever does is die dramatically

[Arha]

I mean can you blame them all Emiya ever does is die dramatically

Dude stop downplaying Emiya. He also wrecked Tohsaka's living room. Effortlessly.

[asterism42]

Emiya can only do cool stuff if it's offscreen. Like wrecking Rin's living room.

[forumghost]

The impressive part of that was fixing the Room overnight. Like, how did he do that?

[Arashi_Leonhart]

I don't think I've heard one person that talks about about how weak archer is, actually acknowledge that he could do anything other than die from a stiff breeze.

To offset the overwanking, you dismiss him, so the actual average is somewhere in the middle where he belongs.

But more seriously, the thing is we have examples of or at least some idea of how these things go in-universe and/or most people usually go "UBW spam" not "BPing shit." We know that BP sniping is his greatest asset, but we also know that Herk can defend against it, even ignoring God Hand. We know that Crane Wing can be effective against Saber Alter, but only if she's being held back, wants the other party to win somewhat, and is planting herself rather than acting mobile. We know that he's got enough technique to keep alive from a full onslaught from Cu and has a variety of techniques that would make Herk happy. Again, it points out: he has enough power to do things, but they're circumstantial. Which is different than the people who like wanking his power level like to point out.

I mean, could he kill an Astolfo level? Probably pretty gud. Could he give a challenge some first raters? He does. Does this mean we should disregard that UBW is a minor hindrance in favor of the fans who like to wank it like its the best of best super moves? Nah. Should we forgive people who like to think or write fanfiction where he finds ways to somehow stomp top tier guys? Never forgive, never forget.

[Canon]

The real OPness of Emiya is keeping a rowdy cafeteria of like 150 servants in check with his culinary skills

[Arashi_Leonhart]

while amazons hang from each elbow

[forumghost]

I mean, could he kill an Astolfo level? Probably pretty gud. Could he give a challenge some first raters? He does. Does this mean we should disregard that UBW is a minor hindrance in favor of the fans who like to wank it like its the best of best super moves? Nah. Should we forgive people who like to think or write fanfiction where he finds ways to somehow stomp top tier guys? Never forgive, never forget.

Didn't you one write Shirou beating Kouma?

[Raylen Cypher]

Should we forgive people who like to think or write fanfiction where he finds ways to somehow stomp top tier guys? Never forgive, never forget.

At some point, you will move on.

[Trubo]

The real OPness of Emiya is keeping a rowdy cafeteria of like 150 servants in check with his culinary skills

Hey now, don't be downplaying Tamamo Cat.

[forumghost]

Hey now, don't be downplaying Tamamo Cat.

Even with the help though... Do you realise how many Sabers are in that group of Servants?

[Arashi_Leonhart]

Didn't you one write Shirou beating Kouma?

everybody has a dark past

it adds character

[eddyak]

To offset the overwanking, you dismiss him, so the actual average is somewhere in the middle where he belongs.

But more seriously, the thing is we have examples of or at least some idea of how these things go in-universe and/or most people usually go "UBW spam" not "BPing shit." We know that BP sniping is his greatest asset, but we also know that Herk can defend against it, even ignoring God Hand. We know that Crane Wing can be effective against Saber Alter, but only if she's being held back, wants the other party to win somewhat, and is planting herself rather than acting mobile. We know that he's got enough technique to keep alive from a full onslaught from Cu and has a variety of techniques that would make Herk happy. Again, it points out: he has enough power to do things, but they're circumstantial. Which is different than the people who like wanking his power level like to point out.

I mean, could he kill an Astolfo level? Probably pretty gud. Could he give a challenge some first raters? He does. Does this mean we should disregard that UBW is a minor hindrance in favor of the fans who like to wank it like its the best of best super moves? Nah. Should we forgive people who like to think or write fanfiction where he finds ways to somehow stomp top tier guys? Never forgive, never forget.

To be fair, "finding a way" is basically his thing.

He, Diarmuid and basically any of the HSs who think their way through things and make plans could be the ones with the best chance of winning against the toppest of tierest of heroes- your average musclehead who was born to be just plain better than everybody around him is almost definitely gonna lose against a better-than-average musclehead who was born to be just plain better than everybody around him- but then, the thing about said heroes is that, almost to a T, they're shounen protagonists. They will damn well make their way to victory no matter how you plan and sneak and "I HAVE ANALYSED YOU AND THUS KNOW YOUR EVERY MOVE" at them. I'd give you ten to one odds that Saber would've protagonisted her way into a win against Diarmuid during that first battle, even with Gae Buidhe's wound.

It really depends on the author, but generally if it's going to be believable, it's going to have to be a quick death they don't see coming against something they couldn't defend against, like Cu or Gil against the Shadow, or maneuvered into a situation in which their last trump card doesn't have the effect they were going for, and the underdog Servant is going to take a serious beating along the way in any case.

[forumghost]

everybody has a dark past

it adds character

Also to be fair that 'fight' was just Shirou getting rag-dolled until the last second.

[Arashi_Leonhart]

To be fair, "finding a way" is basically his thing.

yes but try telling that to someone who keeps going "but UBW should curb stomp!"

[venomking]

I just don't think archer can be explained in just terms of average, I damn I agree with situational, but situational does not explain killing herc 7 times something that saber can't even do without activating Excalibur. My oppionion he's not weak sting or average, I think his true strength isn't explained in power it's more explain in danger. As servant he's not powerful, but he's dangerous sort like how rule breaker Isn't powerful it's still extremely dangerous you catorgize a servant in average or strong each, archer is a servant who will always be a genuin threat even to elites but he can never stand up to the elite classes without useing either a suicidel move or under certain circumstances. But really it comes down to mana in Ruth his strength is mana, becuase lets be honest if he could project excalbur level weapons without dieing he would be basicly Gilgamesh without ea, a much much more dangerous Gilgamesh without ea. But as there is no Mage expect maybe illya who could give him that kinda mana, or I soppose he could get it if he had an optional moment with Rin, then probs might give him enouogh for one projection of excalbur level weapon thou it probably was outdo do much good.

[Arha]

Even with the help though... Do you realise how many Sabers are in that group of Servants?

They were literally asking for spam, he could have fed them garbage and they'd have been satisfied.