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Thread: Questions, questions and more questions (READ THE OP FOR ANSWERS)

  1. #146541
    死徒 Dead Apostle
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    Quote Originally Posted by fire_mountain_30 View Post
    (on that note, would kiritsugu's ideology of killing the few to save the many be an extension of the notion of "severing and binding", which by itself implies the achievement of strenght or just a positive outcome after a certain measure of damage is dealt)
    From a Doylist perspective, all Origins actually are are short and vague character summaries. Kiritsugu breaks things, but can't actually fix them properly. Shirou considers himself a tool to be used by others. Azaka's a brocon.

    So yes, it's an extension of his origin because his origin is, to some extent, the definition for Who Kiritsugu Is. There's more to it, of course - note for instance how "Sword" is vague as all fuck - but on a certain level that's kind of true.

    Lio's whole thing is a bit more extreme, though.

  2. #146542
    Actually it's that from a watsonian perspective too
    Quote Originally Posted by Mcjon01 View Post
    Ugh cokesakto no no no
    Quote Originally Posted by Neir View Post
    your ability to be wrong about literally everything you post is truly astounding. Even a broken clock is right twice a day, but you haven't been right once.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kateikyo View Post
    The gay pics were the most entertaining thing going on in this discussion.
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  3. #146543
    Fail Event Horizon Agailius's Avatar
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    If Bazzet used Fragarach on Gilgamesh, would it counter Ea?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arch-Magos Winter View Post
    When Agailius thinks your idea is really really stupid, you know you've screwed up.

  4. #146544
    死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors fire_mountain_30's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agailius View Post
    If Bazzet used Fragarach on Gilgamesh, would it counter Ea?
    considering that his armour managed to block a Merodrach blast, i doubt it
    Quote Originally Posted by Arashi_Leonhart View Post
    It does mean that, but not literally.
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathhappens View Post
    Literally none of this addresses my complaint. What we see in the story IS all there is of him. A footnote in a side material book saying "oh btw that's totally not his real self" is irrelevant to the way he's presented in the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirGauoftheSquareTable View Post
    With Grail Mud, I got rid of all my extraneous divinity, two feet of height, and a burning desire to get revenge on the Gods! Try Grail Mud today!

  5. #146545
    Quote Originally Posted by Agailius View Post
    If Bazzet used Fragarach on Gilgamesh, would it counter Ea?
    I think the problem would be to get him to use Ea on her in the first place

  6. #146546
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six SpoonyViking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fire_mountain_30 View Post
    if you are made aware of your origin, are you really compelled to act in accordance to it and lose the ability to act in a way that is contradictory to it?
    Isn't that what happens to Lio in KnK? Araya partially awakened him to his Origin, and so he gained the strength and speed of a wild animal and a compulsion to eat human flesh?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agailius View Post
    If Bazzet used Fragarach on Gilgamesh, would it counter Ea?
    Not "counter", but probably, yes. The thing is, I'm hard-pressed to think of a situation where Gilgamesh would bother to pull out Ea against Bazett.
    Plus, he's probably got a toy somewhere in Gate of Babylon which nullifies Fragarach in some way.
    My fanfics:
    The Gift (F/SN): The last duel between Cú Chulainn and Scáthach.
    Passion Acknowledged (F/SN): Shinji X Shirou lemon
    He Was a Good King (F/SN): Was Beowulf a good king?
    A Fairy Tale of Love and Death (F/SN): A meeting between Scáthach and King Hassan.
    Palingenetic Descension (Tsukihime): The origin of the Tohno family's hybrid nature.

  7. #146547
    死徒 Dead Apostle Comun's Avatar
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    I thought there was more to awakening Origins than just telling the person what it is.

  8. #146548
    Being aware of your origin is important, but it's not the same as awakening it.

  9. #146549
    死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors fire_mountain_30's Avatar
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    does Kiritsugu or Kirei have an awakened Origin?
    Quote Originally Posted by Arashi_Leonhart View Post
    It does mean that, but not literally.
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathhappens View Post
    Literally none of this addresses my complaint. What we see in the story IS all there is of him. A footnote in a side material book saying "oh btw that's totally not his real self" is irrelevant to the way he's presented in the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirGauoftheSquareTable View Post
    With Grail Mud, I got rid of all my extraneous divinity, two feet of height, and a burning desire to get revenge on the Gods! Try Grail Mud today!

  10. #146550
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six asterism42's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by You View Post
    Tokiomi would have been the most interesting characters in Zero to see use actual magecraft. To get a feel for what "orthodox" magecraft was like and tease apart how the meanings behind magical attribute and element actually interact to form magical phenomenon.
    But I don't think Urobuchi understands magecraft so we got fire shield.
    Doesn't Lorelei use orthodox magecraft? All I can remember from that one short story is mainly her blowing shit up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fire_mountain_30 View Post
    does Kiritsugu or Kirei have an awakened Origin?
    Donno, but severing and binding pretty much sums up Kerry's relationships with bascly everyone in his life, sooo...
    Quote Originally Posted by Sandstorm77 View Post
    He's just putting the bone of his sword into other people until it explodes and lets out parts of him inside them.
    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerEmiya View Post
    Genderswaps are terrible, but I think I and other people would hate them less if Fate didn't keep ignoring actual heroines throughout history and folklore. Like, why bother turning Francis Drake into a woman when Ching Shih and Grace O'Malley exist?
    Quote Originally Posted by Five_X View Post
    Fate Zero is just Fate Stay Night for people who think Shirou is too girly

  11. #146551
    That has nothing to do with an awakened origin. The whole point of your origin is that it's the "driving force" behind your entire being, because it is the very foundation of your very being. Azaka loves her brother a little too much becauase her origin is "taboo", so she's naturally drawn to that kind of stuff, but her origin isn't awakened. Lio's first thought to get rid of a body was to eat it because his origin was consumption, but it wasn't awakened at that point. Shirou is sexually attracted to swords because that's his origin, but it's not awakened either.

    Having your origin awakened (which, like mentioned previously in this thread, is not the same as just being aware of your origin) means that you are consumed by this driving force, unable to deviate from it in any manner and must act on it. This is not Kiritsugu's case.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mcjon01 View Post
    Ugh cokesakto no no no
    Quote Originally Posted by Neir View Post
    your ability to be wrong about literally everything you post is truly astounding. Even a broken clock is right twice a day, but you haven't been right once.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kateikyo View Post
    The gay pics were the most entertaining thing going on in this discussion.
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  12. #146552
    Bad News LeadDemon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KnK Glossary
    The direction of everything that arose from fundamental cause. The α that enabled the existence of α, the absolute order that existed at the very core. For instance, something with the Origin of “taboo, ” regardless of being born as a human, animal, or plant, would always exist to go against the morals established by the collective. It was the idea that, independent of the process of reincarnation, humans acquired bodies and wisdom from the directional force at the point of origin, and acquired personalities that were only slightly different from their prior lives.

    Individuals who awakened their Origins would be consumed. This was due to “personality” being something merely on the magnitude of one hundred years; it would be overwritten by the directional force born from the origin. However, humans (human bodies) who were overwritten by their Origins would acquire great powers.

    Araya Souren learned the technique to awaken Origins during his research into the root of humanity. Of course, he only awakened the Origin of one person.
    Yeah, awakening the Origin is a very bad very different thing.

  13. #146553
    吸血鬼 Vampire All fictions's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by asterism42 View Post
    Doesn't Lorelei use orthodox magecraft? All I can remember from that one short story is mainly her blowing shit up.
    What do you mean by "orthodox" magecraft?
    Quote Originally Posted by Rafflesiac View Post
    Punching out some nerd doesn't make you a better magus.

  14. #146554
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six SpoonyViking's Avatar
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    Wait, Araya only awakened Lio? I thought he had also awakened to his Origin - isn't that why he could move his bounded fields around, for instance? And why he couldn't reach Shiki and take over her body before dying?
    My fanfics:
    The Gift (F/SN): The last duel between Cú Chulainn and Scáthach.
    Passion Acknowledged (F/SN): Shinji X Shirou lemon
    He Was a Good King (F/SN): Was Beowulf a good king?
    A Fairy Tale of Love and Death (F/SN): A meeting between Scáthach and King Hassan.
    Palingenetic Descension (Tsukihime): The origin of the Tohno family's hybrid nature.

  15. #146555
    鬼 Ogre-like You's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by All fictions View Post
    What do you mean by "orthodox" magecraft?
    my bad i didn't mean it in the in-universe sense, but more this interaction
    Quote Originally Posted by cm3
    Attributes of magic
    The fundamentals of magic lies in “elemental magic.” Magic where one controls, for example, fire if his alignment is fire, or controls water if his alignment is water, is included in elemental magic.

    “Attributes” add meaning to elemental magic and expands its versatility. The easiest way of understanding this is the attribute of “Reinforcement.” When the attribute of reinforcement is given to the elemental magic of fire, fire will burn more strongly, whereas if the attribute of reinforcement is given to the elemental magic of water, then water will flow with greater momentum and in greater amount. This is the simplest example, but in the more advanced levels, the attribute becomes more obvious than the alignment, which becomes more difficult to make out, if looking at this from the perspective of an outsider.

    A good example is the “shift of visual perception” that Ilya used on Shirou, and while we can tell that it is magic with the attribute of “shift,” it is not clear as to what the original alignment was. However, no matter how difficult it may be to understand, magic definitely has a founding alignment.
    Examples of attributes

    Here, I’ll go over examples of attributes of magic such as reinforcement, projection, and conversion. Types of magic in which attributes are used have high versatility and have a wide range of applications, so what I will be introducing here are not representative of magic in which attributes are used; these are simply a few examples. Among these, there are also types of magic which have a high degree of freedom compared to even magic of the same attribute and have no set form of execution, just like reinforcement.

    Generally, a magus line has an attribute they are specialized in. This is dependent on what kind of research they had been doing for generations and what kind of mysteries they left in their crests, and such, these attributes cannot be changed in a short time.

    However, just as Tohsaka Rin can use the attribute of “reinforcement” in addition to the “conversion” that the Tohsaka family is strong at, a first rate magus is going to have multiple attributes. Also, unlike attributes, an “alignment” can only be used for magic that has same type of alignment as the magus. For a magus to use magic of a different alignment, the alignment will have to be changed, just like in the case of Matou Sakura.

    The addition of meaning through attributes will change the usage of elemental magic. The reinforcement ability of Shirou, who has no elemental alignment, will fall in a special category.

    An Average One can use five types of magic with one attribute. Rin, who is an Average One and is strong at conversion, which has a wide range of applications, is extremely versatile.
    magecraft as phenomenon from an elemental meaning + attribute bounded up in some type of mystery
    rather than the "I cut my hair, it's like snakes, snakes represent lightining, therefore lightning follows the hair" free association magecraft we have going in a lot of case files.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SpoonyViking View Post
    Wait, Araya only awakened Lio? I thought he had also awakened to his Origin - isn't that why he could move his bounded fields around, for instance? And why he couldn't reach Shiki and take over her body before dying?
    His origin is awakened but we don't know who did it.
    ... This man's hand, it was a machine designed to grab a human's head and crush it. There was no way to remove the five fingers embedded in her face by force. If she was to rashly shake her body and retaliate, this machine would ruthlessly crush her head.
    The mage's discourse continues.
    "As a reference, I do not die. My origin is 'suspension'. Someone who has woken to their origin becomes ruled by that origin itself. Someone who has already stopped - how can you kill him?"
    Shiki doesn't reply.
    She threw away all her emotions, and bent all her energies to finding those faint lines upon the man's body.
    Ignoring both the paralysing despair running riot in her body and the pain crushing her face, she tries to find that one breach.
    Last edited by You; January 17th, 2020 at 02:37 PM.
    Though abandoned, forgotten, and scorned as out-of-date dolls, they continue to carry out their mission, unchanged from the time they were designed.
    Machines do not lose their worth when a newer model appears.
    Their worth (life) ends when humans can no longer bear that purity.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ticeexcenny
    In my opinion you are not right. I am assured. Let's discuss it. Write to me in PM, we will talk.

  16. #146556
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six SpoonyViking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by You View Post
    His origin is awakened but we don't know who did it.
    Hmmm... Could it have awakened naturally?
    My fanfics:
    The Gift (F/SN): The last duel between Cú Chulainn and Scáthach.
    Passion Acknowledged (F/SN): Shinji X Shirou lemon
    He Was a Good King (F/SN): Was Beowulf a good king?
    A Fairy Tale of Love and Death (F/SN): A meeting between Scáthach and King Hassan.
    Palingenetic Descension (Tsukihime): The origin of the Tohno family's hybrid nature.

  17. #146557
    死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors fire_mountain_30's Avatar
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    Regarding the curse on Proto Cu's Master.

    That was Paracelsus's doing, right? What do we know about said curse?
    Quote Originally Posted by Arashi_Leonhart View Post
    It does mean that, but not literally.
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathhappens View Post
    Literally none of this addresses my complaint. What we see in the story IS all there is of him. A footnote in a side material book saying "oh btw that's totally not his real self" is irrelevant to the way he's presented in the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirGauoftheSquareTable View Post
    With Grail Mud, I got rid of all my extraneous divinity, two feet of height, and a burning desire to get revenge on the Gods! Try Grail Mud today!

  18. #146558
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six SpoonyViking's Avatar
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    She was going to die and come back as a zombie, if I recall it correctly.
    My fanfics:
    The Gift (F/SN): The last duel between Cú Chulainn and Scáthach.
    Passion Acknowledged (F/SN): Shinji X Shirou lemon
    He Was a Good King (F/SN): Was Beowulf a good king?
    A Fairy Tale of Love and Death (F/SN): A meeting between Scáthach and King Hassan.
    Palingenetic Descension (Tsukihime): The origin of the Tohno family's hybrid nature.

  19. #146559
    The Wolf King Lobo's Avatar
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    Also, it wasn't Paracelsus doing, but Manaka's
    She has just turned Paracelsus to her side before that

  20. #146560
    鬼 Ogre-like You's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fire_mountain_30 View Post
    Regarding the curse on Proto Cu's Master.

    That was Paracelsus's doing, right? What do we know about said curse?
    Manaka put a fragment of Beast mud in him
    Though abandoned, forgotten, and scorned as out-of-date dolls, they continue to carry out their mission, unchanged from the time they were designed.
    Machines do not lose their worth when a newer model appears.
    Their worth (life) ends when humans can no longer bear that purity.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ticeexcenny
    In my opinion you are not right. I am assured. Let's discuss it. Write to me in PM, we will talk.

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