Questions, questions and more questions (READ THE OP FOR ANSWERS)

[Blastedspider]

Heroic spirits born from fiction and hero of fiction are different things. Heroic spirit being born from fiction requires a specific reason to be on the throne, such as Nursery Rhyme was able to become a fictional heroic spirit of children due to being the base of children stories, a general term for children picture book. That's how eventhough she is a fictional thing and not a legit heroic spirit, she's still in there as a fictional heroic spirit.

First of all, I am talking about original installments of Fate series, namely Stay Night and Hollow Ataraxia, Zero to a degree.

SN talks about fictional heroes in the opening monologue, do you really believe this was foreshadowing of something which would come half a decade later?

Secondly, I need to see anything elaborating the distinction between these two types.

Easy, grail picked out some random wraith who just happened to have close abilities to "what was described in the

It wasn't the Grail, but some sort of database for humanity (the Root?).

Nasu: If a Master wished to summon Kojiro Sasaki, he would be unable to because Kojiro Sasaki did not exist . Like the story stated, if there were a database for humanity, then Assassin was the piece of data that matched the parameters of Kojiro Sasaki.

Pay attention to the bolded words. The problem isn't that there is no fictionalized version of Sasaki, the problem is what he didn't existed.

[Lily Emilio]

First of all, I am talking about original installments of Fate series, namely Stay Night and Hollow Ataraxia, Zero to a degree.

SN talks about fictional heroes in the opening monologue, do you really believe this was foreshadowing of something which would come half a decade later?

Yes, yes it is. Just like idk a bunch of other things in newer stories being clarifications and elaborations of old lores. You must've been new to this kind of foreshadowing, or should I say revisiting old concepts and expand on it.

Secondly, I need to see anything elaborating the distinction between these two types.

Learn Japanese. That's your best bet because apparently none of the JP stuffs ppl told you reached your brain.

It wasn't the Grail, but some sort of database for humanity (the Root?).

Yes I mean the database. Throne also has other things than eireis.

The problem isn't that there is no fictionalized version of Sasaki, the problem is what he didn't existed.

It is because he never existed that there are no fictionalized version of him (fictional heroic spirit kojirou) in the throne duh. There's nothing in there but some stories about this imaginary guy. Therefore your entire argument about him being a fictional heroic spirit is false. Because if there is a heroic spirit in there, be it fictional or not, you would be able to summon that one.

[Blastedspider]

Learn Japanese. That's your best bet because apparently none of the JP stuffs ppl told you reached your brain

Give me the proof and source. So far all you say seems to be rather significant extrapolation of that the sources actually say on the subject.

Nursery Rhyme is something from GO, right?

It is because he never existed that there are no fictionalized version

Nasu never said that and it is first time I am hearing about all additional requirements being necessary.
Also it was "didn't exists". In padt tense.

[8000]

Nursery if from Extra. Honestly if the debate was about Servants being influenced by stuff from after their life you don't have to look further than Iskandar...

[Zurvan]

Give me the proof and source. So far all you say seems to be rather significant extrapolation of that the sources actually say on the subject.

Nursery Rhyme is something from GO, right?


Nasu never said that and it is first time I am hearing about all additional requirements being necessary.
Also it was "didn't exists". In padt tense.

Are you, being for real?

[Lily Emilio]

Give me the proof and source. So far all you say seems to be rather significant extrapolation of that the sources actually say on the subject.

架空 and 幻想 can both be translated as fiction/imagination but they are actually not the same. Kojiro is 架空 while Charles is 幻想 and NR is 子供たちの英雄, a concept turning eirei.

Nursery Rhyme is something from GO, right?

lol

Also it was "didn't exists". In padt tense.

Honey, that is an English translated quote. If you want to go that deep give me the actual Japanese one.

[Blastedspider]

Are you, being for real?

It was in response to what Mizukune said about Nursery Rhyme being called fictional Servant. Just accidentally deleted word "info".

架空 and 幻想 can both be translated as fiction/imagination but they are actually not the same

These different words, sure, but is there any elaborate explanation as to why these are different concepts?

And the mention of fictional heroic spirits doesn't even use therm of any kind. It was something like "some of them never existed, but it is ok". No seeing why this doesn't apply to Kojirou.

you want to go that deep give me the actual Japanese

I assume competence of translator at least in regards to current discussion. If you are not well, you're still wrong about the Grail finding a Wraiths and there is no source on this:

if there is a heroic spirit in there, be it fictional or not, you would be able to summon that one

[Deathhappens]

I'm just gonna leave here the fact that the past tense of "to exist" is still "exist".

Thus, "didn't exist". No s at the end.

[Blastedspider]

I'm just gonna leave here the fact that the past tense of "to exist" is still "exist".

Thus, "didn't exist". No s at the end.

Typing from the phone here, and the site and browser do not mesh well together.

[Lily Emilio]

These different words, sure, but is there any eloborate explanation as to why they are different?

Because they are different words referencing concepts similar in theory but actually different in execution?

I assume competence of translator at least in regards to current discussion.

It doesn't matter who translated it. You want to go that deep into wording, you must base on the actual JP quote.

you're still wrong about the Grail finding a Wraiths

Greater Grail is responsible for the summoning process, honey. Don't tell me you don't know this.

and I need to see source on this:
if here is a heroic spirit in there, be it fictional or not, you would be able to summon that one

If there is a heroic spirit in there, that means the grail can create copy of the soul and shove into a saint graph for you, duh. Common sense. if there is not, grail either will return 404 error (like when normal Masters try to summon Kojirou) or pick a farmer (under Medea's tampering). Why is this even a question?

[Deathhappens]

Typing from the phone here, and the site and browser do not mesh well together.

Ok, carry on then. As a phoneposter I know that pain.

[Blastedspider]

Because they are different words referencing concepts similar in theory but actually different in execution

These are therms to describe phenomena of fictional world from a written wrok.
Without the in-universe definition I am hesitant to judge how different they are or even what they mean.

you must base on the actual JP quote

"If you are not moon-rune reader you are always wrong"

You magnificient basterd, I READ YOUR BOOK!

Common sense

I take my words back.
You gotta do better than using baseless conjecture. Like proofs or quotes.

[Lily Emilio]

These are therms to describe phenomena of fictional world from a written wrok.
Without the in-universe definition I am hesitant to judge how different they are or even what they mean.

They are used in different contexts. Again, go learn the language if you don't trust anyone.

"If you are not moon-rune reader you are always wrong

Ah the typical "you guys are just fooling me cuz I don't know JP!". This is why I told you to go learn the language, because this is exactly what I expected from you in the first place. Stop asking for explanations that you surely gonna reject in the first place becuz "i dont trust moonrun readers they are full of shit!".

I take my words back.
You gotta do better than using baseless conjecture. Like proofs or quotes.

Sounds like you're talking about yourself. Denial is real. You're basically saying that the idea of "If there's no book of X name in the library, then you can't make a copy of that book" is baseless conjecture. Like, seriously?

[Blastedspider]

They are used in different contexts. Again, go learn the language if you don't trust anyone.

Look, it doesn't really matter what language is it. These are therms used to describe fictional universe. Without in-universe definition, or at least context, it's not sound to assume their meaning, regardless of the language. Nor using this as an argument.

Ah the typical "you guys are just fooling me cuz I don't know JP!"

What are you talking about. I am just mocking your attitude about being distrustful of translations, when 99% members of non-Japanese use translations in arguments.

Sounds like you're talking about yourself.

No, it doesn't. Read the discussion again.
Novel talks about fictional servants, who never existed, yet can be represented in Grail War. Later in a novel it is revealed that one of Servants is a fictional swordsman (or is he swordsman of fiction?)/fictional Servant (Servant of fiction?). And you say that there is no connection, because "common sense".

"If there's no book of X name in the library, then you can't make a copy of that book" is baseless conjecture.

This might be true to libraries, but we're not disccussing them here. And, no, making analogy is not always equals to making an argument. I personally think that in first two Fate installments "next best thing" is supposed to be summoned in lieu of non-existent original (if we extend your analogy, when you ask for a book Sasaki Kojirou they slap the cover on some samurai novel and give it to you).

[Lily Emilio]

Look, I started out also as non-JP fans. But years after years, the more I learn Japanese the more I realized that there are certain contexts that Nasu employed that can't be explained simply through translations. Even when I do my translations, I never feel satisfied because deep inside I knew I've yet to fully convey the entire context. That's the main reason why I suggested you to do the same. Once you've reached a certain lvl and reread the old works, you will realize how much you've missed.

You know what, I have work tmr and it's 3am right now so I'll let other JP readers answer your stuffs. You don't trust me anw so why bother.

[Blastedspider]

That's the main reason why I suggested you to do the same.

I just can't tell if you're serious. I mean, learn entire language to argue about tertiary point of worldbuilding?
Sure, 100% percent authentic translation is probably beyound anyone's reach, but I don't think we need to go that far. Or at least we need essentials (definitions) before luxuries (deep understanding).

You don't trust me anw so why bother.

Having an argument kinda implies that you need to criticise the other guy position. And it's more "disagree" than "distrust".

[Sesto]

Look, I started out as a regular fan too. But years after years, the more I chat with Nasu over coffee, the more I realized there are certain contexts that she employs that can't be explained simply through text. Even when I read Fate, I never truly feel satisfied because deep inside I know I've yet to fully grasp the entire context. That's the main reason I call up Nasu whenever I read the latest chapters. Once you've reached a certain level of friendship with her and reread the old works, you'll realize how much you've missed.

[Arashi_Leonhart]

stop calling me a she

[Deathhappens]

stop calling me a she

Where's my Tsukihime remake then?

[Mcjon01]

stop calling me a she

But we am a she