Questions, questions and more questions (READ THE OP FOR ANSWERS)

[Tobias]

Actually it’s because saber wasn’t nearby.

the closer shirou is to saber, the easier it is for the transference between them to support Avalon, in the same way after their circuit is restored the closer shirou is to saber the quicker his mana passes through to her. In one scene saber doesn’t catch shirou but appears due to him using the spell as he falls. He survived. If shirou doesn’t call for saber, Avalon desperately attempts to heal the damage done to him however is to slow to prevent his death, resulting in just a mangled mass of half knitted swords.

[Bobin]

I thought about that too, but the immediate comparison of what turned out differently just makes me think Shirou wasn't dramatically shouting SEEEIIBAAAAAAA loudly enough to keep his body tensed to brace for the impact or something silly like that.

[Tobias]

I mean

the game is pretty explicit later on in the route that Avalon responds to proximity with saber.

one instance saber wasn’t there and shirou dies, one instance she was and he pulls through.

[Bobin]

I agree with that, it's that the swords bursting out of his chest instead of a painful but survivable landing which leaves my doubts. It's not suggested that Saber eased his fall in any way as the scene plays out the same otherwise.

[Tobias]

His body always becomes swords when healing. The bursting out of his chest was a side effect of avalon not being able to sucesfully knit the damage up as it was occurring

[Bobin]

Yeah, that's probably it. I'm just caught up in the little detail semantics of how Avalon healing and the sword knitting are supposed to interact with each other in this instance.

[madarra]

I always thought that sword knitting is shirous inherent "my origin and magical element is swords" ability and Avalon just healed the damage caused by it, and Shirou surviving or dying from the same fall was just the difference between falling on a bed of nails/swords and having all the swords heal/dissapear before you hit the ground.

[You]

I always thought that sword knitting is shirous inherent "my origin and magical element is swords" ability and Avalon just healed the damage caused by it, and Shirou surviving or dying from the same fall was just the difference between falling on a bed of nails/swords and having all the swords heal/dissapear before you hit the ground.

Q: During the Shirou VS. Rider scene in Saber’s route, why didn’t her daggers kill him? Was it because of the holy sheath embedded within his body? Or was it because his body had begun its swordification?
A: At that time, Shirou’s self-healing had already begun, but the nature of his regeneration was really quite indirect, “changing his muscles into blades in order to knit his wounds with swords.” That is actually what happened, regardless of what you saw during the scene in Saber’s route where Gilgamesh dealt him a mortal wound and Shirou appeared to have “masses of blades shaped like muscle fibers” in his body. So, Shirou’s innards are extremely durable. During the fight with Rider, she was able to injure Shirou with her stakes but it would have been more difficult and troublesome to fatally wound him, so she decided to kick him out the window instead.

Avalon's healing manifests itself in Shirou as swords because his origin and element is swords which is also Avalon's fault.
It's just weird.
If the swords don't heal him fast enough, he dies.

[Tobias]

Bobin even posted the quote a minute ago. The swords are a function of shirou’s regen. The regen is caused by avalon.

again, in either scene, whether or not shirou survives, a mass of swords would have appeared within shirou’s body. The only difference (caused by saber’s presence) was whether or not avalon would continue its work and sucsesfully get shirou patched up or whether or not it’s regenerative rate would be to slow and the damage he sustained would be enough to kill him before it could get him stabilized.

another way to put it is saber’s presence makes avalon’s Healing factor plus 6 HP per round, when normally it’s plus 4

and in that scene shirou was at negative 9 HP and bleeding for 5 HP per round.

[You]

another way to put it is saber’s presence makes avalon’s Healing factor plus 6 HP per round, when normally it’s plus 4

and in that scene shirou was at negative 9 HP and bleeding for 5 HP per round.

In fact at that point of the story, the line between Saber is Shirou is still fucked up so her presence would be more important.

[Bobin]

Healing in swords is a awkward thing to measure.

[Tobias]

In this case it really ended up being more of the pass/fail kinda tests

if you think about it

[castor212]

What if his head blown off

Do i get ginger sword in its place

[CrazyLich79]

The Angra Mainyu in the Grail, the Angra Mainyu/Shirou running around having S&M sex and the Zoroastrian god Angra Mainyu are the same but different, right?Is the Angra in the Grail a part of the Heroic Spirit Angra Mainyu from the 3rd war or did a part of the god descend into the Grail after the Heroic Spirits death? I mean, a Heroic Spirit no matter how corrupted shouldn't have the neccessary....call it authority, strength or whatever it is......to do something like changing the functioning of an artifact that has housed the souls of at least 14 Heroic Spirits and will house even more.Also, was the energy of the Grail obtained from processing the souls of the dead heroic spirits used during the first and second Grail wars?

[pinetree]

Angra doesn't need any strength to change the Grail.
The Holy Grail is a wish granting machine, and Angra is the biggest pile of wishes ever.

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Actual Zoroastrian God Angra Mainyu is not involved at all, if he even exists.

[forumghost]

To elaborate on what pinetree said:

In the 3rd War, the Einzbern tried to cheat by summoning Worse!Satan as Avenger because that's a great idea apparently. Except he's actually Farmer #3 that his village wished to be Angra Mainyu instead.

Then Avenger dies and, since he's a Servant, enters the Grail. The Grail, being a wish-granting device, looks at him (a dude engraved with the peoples wishes that he was AM) and goes "You wish for this guy to be Ancient Zoroastrian Ultra Satan? I got you Fam" and proceeds to Grant that wish by turning him into a being that could be considered such.

But since the Ritual was never finished, Angra Mainyu sorta just stuck around inside the Grail, leaking evil juices everywhere and causing the originally neutral energies of the Grail to become full of curses.

[CrazyLich79]

Angra doesn't need any strength to change the Grail.
The Holy Grail is a wish granting machine, and Angra is the biggest pile of wishes ever.

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Actual Zoroastrian God Angra Mainyu is not involved at all, if he even exists.

I'll have to contradict you there. Angra was a result of the false accusations and paranoia of 50-150 villagers. They blamed him for things he never did and tortured him day and night till he died. One of the accusations was that he was the reason behind their bad luck and hard conditions, this lead to him becoming a false god as he was actually a human rather than a personification of nature unlike (most)other gods. And he IS the actual Zoroastrian God Angra Mainyu. The legend/myth started with him so he is the original, just not as strong as he is portrayed to be.

[Tobias]

You are missing a point. AM premise as a servant was “a wish to become every evil” as the premise that he was sacrificed in order to remove evil from everyone else

a wish that that this person become every evil entered a device intended to grant wishes. At that point, the original wish of the people who sacrificed him was granted, and he became every evil.

edit: what forumghost said

[castor212]

I'll have to contradict you there. Angra was a result of the false accusations and paranoia of 50-150 villagers. They blamed him for things he never did and tortured him day and night till he died. One of the accusations was that he was the reason behind their bad luck and hard conditions, this lead to him becoming a false god as he was actually a human rather than a personification of nature unlike (most)other gods. And he IS the actual Zoroastrian God Angra Mainyu. The legend/myth started with him so he is the original, just not as strong as he is portrayed to be.

Uh no
Avenger being not actual Angra Manyu but merely set up as Angra Manyu is p explicitly stated.

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And the legend doesnt really start with him

The village already practiced Zoroastrism before Villager #3 got tattoed.

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Also its less "blame", more "sacrifice"

The villagers who practices Zoro, which is about duality of good and evil, did a mental gymnast and end up on the idea that if 1 person is all the evil of the world, them the rest of the others can only be good.

He is not really a false god, nor is he the actual AM. He wasnt really AM origin, either. He is no Divine Spirit, thats fo sure.

[CrazyLich79]

I see. Guess I'll have to reread HA again. Goodbye another 90+ hours of my life. You will be missed.