Questions, questions and more questions (READ THE OP FOR ANSWERS)

[Bobin]

What I'm getting at, yeah. It's an object that passes the humanity check in GoB because it becomes defined by the hero since it's the legend about it that matters in the end, not its godly composition or origin.

[AAM1232]

Doesn't make sense given Vajra's description.

[the god of world-0]

You know, that actually explains something: the Houtengeki in GoB is heavily imply to be the one used by Lu Bu, but still looks nothing like God Force. If it is only the prototype, that would make much more sense.

[Ronove]

Collector EX kind of made a big misunderstanding within the fandom. It wasn't saying Gilgamesh didn't have divine constructs, but noting that GoB had technology equivalent to anything humanity will ever make, as tech from AoG can't fall behind modern times. It wasn't about noble phantasms, they aren't even mentioned anywhere in that text.

Gilgamesh having heroic spirit noble phantasms is because of his status as the first hero, that's a completely separate caveat already denoted in FSN. Divine constructs are not exceptions. Human made weapons are also not the rule. Humans didn't make Gram. Humans didn't make Durandal. Vajra and Vimana were both fashioned by gods. Even going by collector EX, it notes the two things that definitely would not exist in GoB are alien tech or tech from a new humanity.

The ability to acquire items of higher quality. It's the good luck of frequently obtaining even rare items, but because it only applies to Gilgamesh himself, it does not bless the Master. Gilgamesh is a collector of treasure. "I collected all the treasures of the earth," is Gilgamesh's favorite phrase, but that is not a metaphor. He collected and stored away a sample of all the technology that was developed during his age and sealed them. That which Gilgamesh stored, rather than being treasure, is "the origin of the intelligence of mankind" itself. If it does not exist in Gilgamesh's treasury, then it is "something produced by a new breed of humanity, according a completely new concept," "something made from the technology of the culture born from the intelligent life from another heavenly body," one of the two. For that reason, of course he has airplanes and submarines. The desires of the people from before Christ are not different, and it would not do for the crafts of ancient times when magic was in good health to be inferior to the crafts of the modern age. People generally realize the "tools of hope" that they dream of, and each time that occurs, it ended with them being confiscated by the king's hand.

Gods are conspicuously absent,

For GoB, the legend is what matters, not necessarily the construct itself.

Divine constructs can have prototypes that aren't divine constructs themselves. Excalibur is an example of this. It has at least 2 potential prototypes. Caladbolg and Gram (as sometimes Excalibur's considered a reforged Caliburn). Gilgamesh doesn't have divine constructs outside of Ea and Enkidu unless we're counting Kaleid. He probably has corresponding, but inferior NPs. Think about how bad of a pothole it would be if GOB literally had the divine constructs themselves, when UBW was very clear that Ea was the only sword that wasn't in Shirou's UBW. Either UBW skimmed all of Gilgamesh's armory, which is the explanation that makes the most sense, or Shirou was creating all the NPs aside from the several dozen at the start from scratch, which is costly, and doesn't have the advantage that let him win against Gilgamesh, that being him requiring one less step than him.

What? Excalibur's prototype is the Sword of Mars.

Gilgamesh's weapons are comparable, not inferior, where did you get that from?

As for UBW? All UBW did was copy swords and bladed weapons. We know Gilgamesh has much more than that Shirou cannot trace. Formless lightning/flames/liquid, shields, nukes etc. He chose not to use because the plot required Shirou must win the battle. It is in no way a perfect counter to GoB by itself. Additionally? Not sure if you realize this, but Shirou could copy divine constructs in the original FSN. He could copy Excalibur and Artoria Alter doesn't dispute it. She fully expects he can replicate her sword. He eventually does at the end of the route.

Nasu retcons this years later but in the original work, nothing ever said Shirou couldn't trace divine constructs. Ea was the exception because its material was alien to him. He never gives that sort of credence to Excalibur despite seeing it used multiple times across routes.

[AAM1232]

Shirou can't copy Divine Constructs, as Archer explains in UBW. At best, he can make an approximation (something never used for any other Projections) that does what Excalibur/EMorgan can do. No retcons about it.

https://forums.sufficientvelocity.co.../post-14354160

[Ronove]

Shirou can't copy Divine Constructs, as Archer explains in UBW. At best, he can make an approximation (something never used for any other Projections) that does what Excalibur/EMorgan can do. No retcons about it. https://forums.sufficientvelocity.co.../post-14354160

What Archer said is that he could get something close to Excalibur. Which...applies to everything made by UBW. They are all ranked-downs from the original. Excalibur being a divine construct has nothing to do with that. Most of the examples provided by Fallacies comes from materials later on, not the game. Shirou made Excalibur Morgan in HF. Nasu later goes back on it. Everyone's confident he can do it, and he does. You could have gone through the whole VN and never once doubted Shirou could trace them if he had enough power.

[Bobin]

Doesn't make sense given Vajra's description.

I'm not really arguing against Divine Constructs existing in GoB, just laying out how it could be possibly interpreted and reasonably headcanon'd since I'm not really sure either tbh

[AAM1232]

What Archer said is that he could get something close to Excalibur. Which...applies to everything made by UBW. They are all ranked-downs from the original. Excalibur being a divine construct has nothing to do with that. Most of the examples provided by Fallacies comes from materials later on, not the game. Shirou made Excalibur Morgan in HF. Nasu later goes back on it. Everyone's confident he can do it, and he does. You could have gone through the whole VN and never once doubted Shirou could trace them if he had enough power.

You'll show where what he uses to describe his attempt at replicating Excalibur (approximation) is used to describe any of the other stuff he has in UBW. Or that Archer explicitly states he can project Excalibur, when in that same line he says it'll kill him if he tried to, unlike every other projection he and Shirou do without killing themselves.

So, no, it isn't a retcon.

[Bobin]

What Archer said is that he could get something close to Excalibur. Which...applies to everything made by UBW. They are all ranked-downs from the original. Excalibur being a divine construct has nothing to do with that. Most of the examples provided by Fallacies comes from materials later on, not the game. Shirou made Excalibur Morgan in HF. Nasu later goes back on it. Everyone's confident he can do it, and he does. You could have gone through the whole VN and never once doubted Shirou could trace them if he had enough power.

Everyone should just wait for the HF 3 movie to come out honestly

There's that thing about Shirou seeing Rho Aias that was added in HF 2 and it's made me think over a couple of moments during vs. Saber Alter in the VN.

[AAM1232]

I mean adaptations changing stuff happens all the time, considering the latest example with Babylonia. Doesn't make Shirou and Archer both struggling with projecting Excalibur and having to do with even worse ripoffs that aren't said to be like any of their other projections including Rho Aias, K&B and so on a retcon.

[You]

Team grail helped Shirou project Excalibur Morgan

[Bobin]

I mean adaptations changing stuff happens all the time, considering the latest example with Babylonia. Doesn't make Shirou and Archer both struggling with projecting Excalibur and having to do with even worse ripoffs that aren't said to be like any of their other projections including Rho Aias, K&B and so on a retcon.

Won't argue that, but adaptions do clarify the original thought process or implications behind the scenes that's been untouched for what, 15 years

FGO clarified a lot of what was only implied about what special snowflakes Divine made stuff are that was only suggested by the outlined limitations of Tracing occasionally mentioned so many years ago that remains relevant.

[AAM1232]

Won't argue that, but adaptions do clarify the original thought process or implications behind the scenes that's been untouched for what, 15 years

FGO clarified a lot of what was only implied about what special snowflakes Divine made stuff are that was only suggested by the outlined limitations of Tracing occasionally mentioned so many years ago that remains relevant.

FGO isn't really an adaptation of anything, and Babylonia has already cut out stuff for (what the team behind it seems to want) better structuring and to make a better product. And it's not like this is something new when Nasu later added K&B Overedge after DEEN's Fate anime.

Ultimately as far as FSN and CM3 go, there's not much you can use to say CM3 made a retcon of potential Projections when FSN never comes out and says it cleanly, especially during UBW and HF when Archer could have cut out half of his dialogue or the narration could have stated it was actually Excalibur Morgan like he projects K&B.

[Bobin]

I think there’s been a miscommunication.

I’m not using FGO as an example to disagree with you. I’m just saying that it plainly stated much of what was only implied in the past from what we know about the creation process of certain NPs thanks to details we already knew about Tracing.

[AAM1232]

I think there’s been a miscommunication.

I’m not using FGO as an example to disagree with you. I’m just saying that it plainly stated much of what was only implied in the past from what we know about the creation process of certain NPs thanks to details we know about Tracing.

True, along with explaining why the 7 classes system exists in the first place. What doesn't help is when they just skip over it though, like a lot of Mats profiles.

[Ronove]

You'll show where what he uses to describe his attempt at replicating Excalibur (approximation) is used to describe any of the other stuff he has in UBW. Or that Archer explicitly states he can project Excalibur, when in that same line he says it'll kill him if he tried to

By overloading himself? Archer no longer has a master. He traces something like Excalibur (assuming he's not bluffing) on his own reserves and he dies.

[AAM1232]

By overloading himself? Archer no longer has a master. He traces something like Excalibur (assuming he's not bluffing) on his own reserves and he dies.

Again, this isn't stated anywhere in UBW. He says explicitly he can try for an approximation, something never used to describe any other projections, as the real deal is beyond him. K&B, Rho Aias, Caladbolg or Hrunting aren't said anywhere to be approximations like an Excalibur copy, even though as "perfect" copies they're ranked down. CM3 just goes into more detail and clears things up.

[Ataraxia]

Besides Lancelot, what other Servants are likely to hold their own against Gawain's Sun Buff?

[Rafflesiac]

Lu Bu

[the god of world-0]

Maybe other Sun figures? Like ozy and quetz?