Feedback Thread - "Peanut Gallery" (Read OP)

[Random]

HEY! THIS IS THE OP! READ IT!

Welcome to the Evil Realm of Critical Elitism. Break out the fancy wine and take a seat.

This thread is here to put in a request for feedback for the things you've made. While it's most likely to see use for fanmade Servant sheets, there's no need to restrict it to just that. Regardless of what you post, please keep it relevant to the forum category (which is to say, Type-Moon fanfiction), and make sure to include a link to the thing you're referencing. Links to things off-site are fine on paper, but please try to keep that sort of thing in the minority of your requests and focus primarily on what you've contributed to Beast's Lair itself - this is, after all, a Beast's Lair thread.

Please also note that posting here is opening you up to both good and bad reviews. Anyone responding to your request is neither obligated to praise nor criticise. This is a place to openly invite honest thoughts. For the same reason, despite the tongue-in-cheek thread title, please do not review anything that hasn't already been submitted by its creator - it's literally uncalled for, keep it to its respective thread.



HOW THIS THREAD WORKS:

• Take a look at what's been submitted recently. If the previous submission has fewer than three posts from different people giving feedback of reasonable quality and it has been less than 24 hours since it was submitted, please try to review it instead of submitting something new.
• You are not limited to reviewing the submission immediately previous, but please try to contain yourself to within the last page or two. This one speaks for itself, surely?
• Those who have reviewed the previous submission take priority with the next submission. If you didn't review anything yourself in-between the last submission and the next one, make sure nobody who did is waiting for a turn.
• Wait until it's cooled down. It's best practice to be patient, so please limit yourself to submitting things that are more than three days old. After all, opinions usually take a while to properly form in the first place.
• Please don't submit the same thing twice unless the feedback last time was really unsatisfactory - for instance, if you've had fewer than three reasonable reviews.

Thread mechanics are subject to change depending on how well they work. Thank you for understanding.


And just because I'm a pompous fuck, here are some personal guidelines I have on reviewing. Don't take them too seriously.

Giving critique

• Quality over quantity. Don't feel pressured to write entire paragraphs if you don't feel like it. A single considered and insightful remark can be worth more than a whole page of nothing but words.
• Be polite, but honest. Anyone who has submitted a sheet here is doing so to hear your honest thoughts. Both praise and reproval is entirely solicited by design, and if the submitter didn't want to hear it then they wouldn't have posted it in here. This is not a circlejerk just as much as it's not a public execution. And on the other side of that coin, remember: this isn't personal. You don't get any more attention paid to your advice by going for the writer rather than the writing. It helps the writer look on their own work with a more critical eye if the notes you have don't tie the creation to the creator themselves. The ethics of the separation of art and artist is a debate for outside this thread.
• Elaborate. Explain yourself. Make sure anything you say can actually be addressed and engaged with. Engaging in the delicate art of criticism requires careful and nuanced consideration, and you - yes, you, the person reading this right now - are capable of that. The average opinion is actually quite intelligent; any challenge comes from actually articulating your opinion in a way that conveys your thoughts to the author.
• Be clear in your tone. Hyperbole and sarcasm have never gotten lost in translation on the internet. Ever.
• What you are critiquing is not your own creation. Always keep in mind that the themes and purposes of this writing, whatever they may be, do not necessarily align with what you might want them to be. What you would do differently if you were writing it is all well and good, but you are not writing it - they are. Consider what they might benefit from doing differently to better achieve their goals with what they have written.
• Be as considerate as you feel your own work would deserve. Sure, the Golden Rule might be easy to take for granted, but just remember that it might be your turn to submit something next.

Receiving critique

• Perfection is relative. You can't please everyone, even if you spend an infinite amount of time trying. You don't have to please everyone. You don't have to please anyone. Compromise, as they say, tends to do little but make everyone unhappy. Saltwater might be perfect for a fish that lives two hundred metres below the surface of the Atlantic Ocean, but a lake of freshwater would be hostile to it, let alone dry land. What is your writing written for? Keep the answer to that question in mind as you consider advice you've been given.
• Most "mistakes" are ultimately your own. It's easy to brush off criticism that has underlying flaws in its assumptions as "they just weren't paying attention", but if they actually were paying attention, that would indicate that you failed to communicate something. All opinions are subjective, even your own - perhaps their reading is a more natural one than yours, since you're biased yourself as the one who wrote it? Or, a novel idea: perhaps thinking about notes you receive as "mistaken" is a flawed approach in the first place.
• Weigh points individually. Saying something bad about your work does not imply that the person who said it thinks the work is bad and vice versa. Nuance is difficult to communicate, we tend to get an exaggerated picture of things that are communicated to us, and perfectly reflecting the relative importance of all points made is functionally impossible. Take each point one by one where you can, as if they were separate comments.
• Your critics are not omniscient. It's crazy to think about, but sometimes, subjective opinions can be wrong. Absorb what is being said to you, but consider both their praise and criticism as carefully as you would consider work that you yourself would be critiquing. You're not always right - that's why you're here, after all - but that's no reason to assume that any one other person is either.
• Don't be afraid of discussion. If someone has said something that you don't understand - Where did they get that impression from? What did they mean by this? - just ask. Discuss in detail. Engaging with criticism requires comprehending its meaning. This isn't an invitation to fight about it, of course: bickering is not going to encourage anyone to take their valuable time to read your work while thinking about it carefully enough to come up with feedback.

[DelRey]

How can i copyright strike another member?

Jokes aside, thanks for creating the thread.

[Random]

Discussion seemed to be cooling off, so I sorta panicked and went ahead before everyone forgot about it.

In hindsight, I think I was probably assuming everyone else's attention span is as short as mine ^^;

[DelRey]

Nah, its fine
I was just occupied with stuff
You did a much better job than i would for tue OP

[Spammin Spiff]

Well as no one else has put themselves forward for critique, there is a sheet a posted for the Monthly contest a while back that if like critiqued.

[DelRey]

Let me add the rule to actually link the sheet for convenience sake

[Spammin Spiff]

Back during the Legacy theme for the Monthly Contest I did a sheet for Xerxes the Great on like the last day of submission, so I really didn't get any feedback. That being said, I know I didn't do that great with him, so any feedback is helpful.

- - - Updated - - -

Also, that rule is a good idea (and what was what I went to do after I did the original comment).

[Comun]

You did a much better job than i would for tue OP

First feedback on the thread, off to a good start.

[RoydGolden]

Xerxes: Pretty solid. His third Skill feels a bit overly specific (I'm sure lots of Servants beheaded someone without having it) but I can see someone wanting to go the more specific side as opposed to the usual "king combo" of Charisma, Military Tactics and suchlike. For his first NP I'd imagine it taking the form of a storm/water whip given the legend, but a barrier that absorbs elements works too. You did a good job setting his personality apart from other "proud king" types while still hitting similar beats. I do think though you should space that section into a few more paragraphs since as of now it's a bit difficult to read. Also is there a reason he doesn't have Magic Resistance as a Rider?

[Spammin Spiff]

Xerxes: Pretty solid. His third Skill feels a bit overly specific (I'm sure lots of Servants beheaded someone without having it) but I can see someone wanting to go the more specific side as opposed to the usual "king combo" of Charisma, Military Tactics and suchlike. For his first NP I'd imagine it taking the form of a storm/water whip given the legend, but a barrier that absorbs elements works too. You did a good job setting his personality apart from other "proud king" types while still hitting similar beats. I do think though you should space that section into a few more paragraphs since as of now it's a bit difficult to read. Also is there a reason he doesn't have Magic Resistance as a Rider?

In terms of the beheading skill, for me it is more so for someone who is well known for taking heads, rather than just someone who would do it every once in a while; when I made the sheet I believe my thoughts on that were that considering Leonidas was famously beheaded, and Xerxes was the one to do it, he'd probably be able to earn the skill. I do agree though, there's probably a better skill I could've given him instead. In terms of the Magic Resistance, I literally forgot to give it to him when I posted the sheet, noticed I didn't give it to him after voting started, and then went "oh well". Thanks for the kind words about his personality as well, and ya, I probably should've spaced it a bit more.

[pinetree]

I don't really have much to say about his character but I can offer some comments on his abilities.

He's very straightforward and ends up being bland as a result. His beheading skill is overly specific and it, alongside only having a generic one and a variation of someone else's before that, ends up giving the impression that he didn't have anything else worthwhile to turn into one. He didn't even get Magic Resistance.

His first NP doesn't realize the fantasy of someone whipping the elements to his control. I understand that the end result is that it protected him from the elements, but an actual weather controlling whip would've been more impressive, specially if you included some creative imagery like lighting striking like bulls or wind galloping faster as he commands it. Hell, you could go all out and make him ride the elements themselves.
I like the second one, bridge boat is cool.
His third NP also loses out on a lot of flavor, obviously summoning 1000 soldiers would be a bit much, but that's the whole legend, that there are always 1000, so why would you restrict it to 4? Leonidas gets around this by summoning the 300 as (essentially) an effect rather than as actual soldiers. You could've done something similar.
Also, I don't feel like this guy's deserves three NPs.

[Spammin Spiff]

I don't really have much to say about his character but I can offer some comments on his abilities.

He's very straightforward and ends up being bland as a result. His beheading skill is overly specific and it, alongside only having a generic one and a variation of someone else's before that, ends up giving the impression that he didn't have anything else worthwhile to turn into one. He didn't even get Magic Resistance.

His first NP doesn't realize the fantasy of someone whipping the elements to his control. I understand that the end result is that it protected him from the elements, but an actual weather controlling whip would've been more impressive, specially if you included some creative imagery like lighting striking like bulls or wind galloping faster as he commands it. Hell, you could go all out and make him ride the elements themselves.
I like the second one, bridge boat is cool.
His third NP also loses out on a lot of flavor, obviously summoning 1000 soldiers would be a bit much, but that's the whole legend, that there are always 1000, so why would you restrict it to 4? Leonidas gets around this by summoning the 300 as (essentially) an effect rather than as actual soldiers. You could've done something similar.
Also, I don't feel like this guy's deserves three NPs.

Thanks for the feedback, I do agree that most of his skills feel "meh". If I reworked him, I'd probably replace TwW and Beheading, as I do think I could probably do better with that. In terms of his NPs, for the first one I wanted him to specifically have a defensive NP to support his "playstyle" as someone who wins through attrition, although I do understand the appeal of a more flashy NP. As for the Immortals, their whole schtick was the fact that they seemed to "never die"
(and as per public perception, that would definitely be the effect they would have) so having a lot seemed overpowered to me (he technically isn't limited to 4, he can summon many more, but he'd need a boatload of mana to do so). I honestly would've liked something a bit more interesting or flashy for the Immortals NP, and doing it as an effect sounds odd considering Xerxes definitely wasn't immortal (and was literally killed by an Immortal), but I had trouble balancing it that way. As for 3 NPs, he's a Rider and a very well known Historical figure, I think it makes sense, it felt odd getting rid of any of those, but I guess I probably could if it feels too bloated. But I do agree that the sheet feels bland, it's a problem I have with almost all of my sheets.
Also, I forgot to add Magic Resistance when I made the sheet, so that's why it's not there.

[Random]

I feel like the biggest thing holding this sheet back is its preoccupation with the attempted conquest of Greece. I understand that this is supposed to be Xerxes's warlord attribute first and foremost, but Pine is certainly right that this doesn't feel worthy of three Noble Phantasms - especially since he's known for losing that fight.

To be honest, aside from some very impressive propaganda teams, you don't tend to get called "the Great" for spending a bunch of time and resources on a war that ends in failure, right?

Or to put it another way, this is a firmly Grecocentric take, which isn't necessarily a bad thing on its own, but it sort of flails a bit at the "Heroic" part of "Heroic Spirit" to make ends meet. That feels like the core of the struggle - fleshing him out based purely on the stories of his wartime exploits. The story you recount at the very end of his biography, on the other hand, pretty much admits that the build we're seeing is the tip of the iceberg. Military history can't really compare to human drama like that, and honestly I'm tearing my hair out that we got Trouble With Women instead of a Noble Phantasm based on that tale, for example.

Basically, he feels like "Leonidas's enemy" more than a king of his own people, if that makes sense. While that feels like the intent, it also feels frustratingly unambitious.

To be clear, I don't think he's badly done for what he is. Beheading is the only thing I would say doesn't really stand on its own, and you even managed to turn that into an interesting effect. But man, there's so much to work with that he feels undercooked in the grand scheme of things.

[Ismail2002]

I have been of which my sheet making and the first one that I made after the long break is Al Mansur so far there's not comment. I would like to know where I could add something to the sheet as I feel like I have been getting rusty lately

[Random]

If you're asking about things to add, I suppose my first port of call is to suggest elaborating more on his personality. There's obviously more to it than we're seeing. We have some dialogue from him indicating that he's a measured and principled person, even if he's talking about someone else rather than himself. But the skills he has tell a completely different story of an insane dictatorial theocrat who crushed all opposition under his heel, so much so that all six of his skills - which all portray him as such in some capacity - are ranked A or EX.

Which leads me to the power levels, actually. This is a bit of a tangent, but doesn't his build imply that he's not only a despot, but practically the despot to end all despots? His skills outclass actual deities in scale and scope, even radically modifying the Earth itself to change the course of the planet's leylines with a class skill. If you didn't tell me this guy's name, I would have assumed he was some kind of super jacked High-Servant with Zahhak as the basis or something, if not a nascent Beast outright - both from the power level and the nature of his abilities.

Anyway, that aside, I think he'd really benefit from some elaboration on his mentality. It would help to understand some more as to why his class is Ruler too: seeing someone whose whole deal is imposing his own subjective views of the world onto reality through the establishment of economic and sociopolitical systems doesn't make me think of the class for impartial referees, you know? But I think understanding more of how he thinks could sell that a lot better.

[RoydGolden]

Al Mansur: I've never heard of this guy before so I can't comment on accuracy of the aspects represented. But the Skills seem well-thought out (the second most interesting, as the first and last are more standard "absolute despot" stuff) and his NP has some cool imagery involved. Personality-wise he seems like an edgy dark ruler type with vaguely good(?) intentions.

Elaborating a little, EX feels way too high-ranking for that NP. It's basically analogous to Scathach's Gate of Skye which is still only A+ rank, so I'd say A or B+ would be appropriate. For his True Name Discernment, the description seems to say he can identify Servants past (outside) his territory he's made when I feel within would make more sense. It's also not clear if you mean the territory he had in life or what he creates as a Servant. And EX still seems overwrought (especially since you even note there's figures he can't guess as easily) so just A should be enough.

[Ismail2002]

Thanks for the feedback guys, I change the rank of some of his skills on RoydGolden advice. As for his mentality, that was brought up by Random. I tried to convey that he is the most extreme form of Lawful. That he brings into Alaya's Will after he was chosen as one of the Counter Guardians after his death. So he has a bit of a Judge Dredd mentality in his words that any affront to God or in this case Alaya will be punished swiftly. He will massacre people if it would protect the system that Alaya set up. That's why his line is of a measured and principled ruler but he won't hesitate to do war crimes for the "greater good" of Alaya.

[Corvus]

I'll say there's definitely a really solid skeleton in place for Al Mansur, but I think he'd really benefit from some additional meat on those bones. There's lots of potential for characterization and flavor that's being left on the table with this one. For example, that "Mind's Web of Shadow" that says he can spy on an entire city using spies and secret police...

"But like, where does he get them from? They're not from his NP, that thing's a black hole, so like, what gives?"

And that presents an opportunity to flesh him out even more. Does that skill actively summon familiars of some kind, does it mind control existing people, is some kind of divination that gives people the feeling of being watched? These are just examples of course, but basically every personal skill he has and even his NP to an extent leaves the questions of 'exactly how' and 'to what degree' up in the air. Filling those spots in could be just the gas this buggy needs.

[DesReploid]

I suppose while I'm slowly carving out fifteen to twenty minutes here and there during oddly busy weeks, I might as well take advantage of this new thread. Tam Lin & Janet were the last Servants I posted in CaS3, but they sadly got burried pretty quickly. I'd certainly welcome some feedback on them.

[Alexcoene]

A very wholesome fairy tale sheet, with one of the cutest NPs I've seen. I also like the various comments on all kind of fairies in the Relationship section. The only nitpick I could have is that Janet doesn't have much to herself, but that's a very minor thing.