Avalon

[LJ3]

It's also iffy since Mad Enhanced Lancelot can't win against a bigger barrage of Gate of Babylon while Saber was dealing with a much more expanded version at the end of Fate.

[Jacktheinfinite101]

In pure swordsmanship, Kojirou. In the more general sense, Lancelot.

Kojiro was only able to even match Saber due to the terrain advantage and his one special move. Lancelot had a sword that Saber is naturally weak to and he was Mad Enchanted, improving his abilities, Saber was also emotionally compromised so she wasn't able to focus and use her skills properly, and she still won.

The only one we ever see best Saber in technique, ironically, is actually Shirou and only once.

[Leftovers]

It's also iffy since Mad Enhanced Lancelot can't win against a bigger barrage of Gate of Babylon while Saber was dealing with a much more expanded version at the end of Fate.

Kojiro was only able to even match Saber due to the terrain advantage and his one special move. Lancelot had a sword that Saber is naturally weak to and he was Mad Enchanted, improving his abilities, and Saber still won.

I specifically responded to the "Sabre best wielder, unmatched in technique" comments. Kojirou's sword skillz broke reality, and Eternal Arms Mastership informs us about Lancelot's martial prowess. Thus they are both technically superior to Arthur. It was never a full versus (though "his one special move" and your disregard of the fact that Lance ran out of juice are amusing in their own right).

[Jacktheinfinite101]

You're missing the point that Lance still had a bunch of upgrades and Saber was emotionally compromised and didn't even want to finish him off. If Lance were truly superior without those upgrades, then finishng Saber long before running out of juice would have been a peice of cake. Had Lance not been Mad Enchanted, not had the advantage of his sword, and had Saber not been emotionally compromised, she would have wiped the floor with him.

Kojiro managed to break reality with determination, yet she still beat even that move and that's the only move he has that would even be a threat to her without the terrain advantage.

[Leftovers]

THIS IS NOT A VERSUS

THIS IS PURE SWORDSMANSHIP

fucking waifus man

[Jacktheinfinite101]

THIS IS NOT A VERSUS

THIS IS PURE SWORDSMANSHIP

fucking waifus man

It's a versus in swordsmanship, so the primary factor in victory is superior swordmanship. Yes there are other factors involved, but my point is in both cases, those factors worked against Saber and she still won only having her technique to rely on. There are plenty of characters that best Saber in all other categories, but technique is the category she is dominant in.

[Leftovers]

In terms of pure swordsmanship, Assassin is the greatest among the Servants of this Holy Grail War.

A+: Mastership of combat arts has reached the point of being said to be unrivaled in one's era.[...]

Right, OK.

[Jacktheinfinite101]

I've said before that I feel the material booklets and status screen make shit up as they go along. I use them as reference, but if the actual story itself contradicts them, I go with that.

Edit: Eternal Art Mastership doesn't say that you are unmatched, it says you are said to be unmatched. Big difference. In the legend, Lancelot, along with the other knights, who are often said to have been added into the legend at a later point, were totally wanked off for being the best, despite the legend of Arthur being about the greatest knight who ever lived. It's like fanfic writers saying "here's my new character who's better than everyone else."

[Leftovers]

I've said before that I feel the material booklets and status screen make shit up as they go along. I use them as reference, but if the actual story itself contradicts them, I go with that.

fucking waifus man

.

[Jacktheinfinite101]

See my edit above.

[alsir]

Do you think Lancelot can negate swallow cut thing by grabbing Kojirou's first two sword strikes with each hand? He'd be able to dodge the third in that case.

[Jacktheinfinite101]

Do you think Lancelot can negate swallow cut thing by grabbing Kojirou's first two sword strikes with each hand? He'd be able to dodge the third in that case.

Unlikely, if miss A rank instinct foresight couldn't do that even after seeing it in action once.

My guess is that you would need both hands to block that blade in a way that prevents your hand from just being sliced off, even with armor.

[Leftovers]

See my edit above.

Lol, it's belief that shapes Heroic Spirits. The legends from which they crystallise aren't any less true or valid because you don't like them.

Also:

despite the legend of Arthur being about the greatest knight who ever lived

He had been the unrivalled ‘perfect knight’ admired by the masses; he had been a flower that bloomed on the precipitous peak of the way of the knight. His form and his actions had once been the greatest treasure of all who had the ambition of becoming a knight.

[Jacktheinfinite101]

Lol, it's belief that shapes Heroic Spirits. The legends from which they crystallise aren't any less true or valid because you don't like them.

Exactly why I'm saying Lancelot would get that skill even if in reality he wasn't the best. Remember, Arturia and Lancelot were real in this universe, so even if they have a legend and some of their perks are based around it, they were real people and the truth of their skills is shown. Even if Lancelot went down as the most skilled knight in legend, it's plain obvious who the best one was when seeing them in action.

- - - Updated - - -

Also:

And I'm saying that even though this was the case in the legend, the idea behind the legend when it was first written was for Arthur to be the greatest knight, then whoever wrote Lancelot in decided to piss in the cereal bowl, only for whoever wrote the affair to get shit back on track.

[Leftovers]

Exactly why I'm saying Lancelot would get that skill even if in reality he wasn't the best. Remember, Arturia and Lancelot were real in this universe, so even if they have a legend and some of their perks are based around it, they were real people and the truth of their skills is shown. Even if Lancelot went down as the most skilled knight in legend, it's plain obvious who the best one was when seeing them in action.

This really is next-level grasping at straws.

So you think that, when talking about who the most skilled Servant in terms of swordsmanship is, one should disregard Word of God, in-text evidence and the whole setting in which said comparison takes place, and instead conjecture on the basis that Nasu is lying to you, and that historical King Arthur totally pwns historical Lancelot, because it's plain obvious when seeing them in action.

In hypothetical 5th century Britain.

Unless you're now talking about the Servants, in which case the only painfully obvious thing was the ass-whooping Berserker delivered before Uncle Kariya kicked the bucket and pulled his plug.

fucking waifus man

[Jacktheinfinite101]

So you're saying every piece of propaganda about "this person is the best at this" in a bio or description should be taken 100% seriously and is absolute word of god? Ok then since Saber is always called "the greatest Servant" or "the strongest Servant" then by Word of God she is superior to everyone in every sense of the word.

I'm talking about the Servants. Before finding out who he was, Saber was pwning, then she realizes who he is and loses the will to fight him, only blocking his attacks in defense. Not to mention he has a sword that she is naturally weak against, and his abilities are boosted and thanks to the skill you keep bringing up, he doesn't lose his technique as a result. So that fight was basically a fight where Saber isn't willing to go on the offense, and her opponent is basically a crazed Lancelot on steroids weilding a sword that is like Kryptonite to her, and you want to say that her being beaten on was because of inferior technique? HA! Don't make me laugh. If he was already superior to her in pure technique, she would have been dead long before Lancelot ran out of juice when you consider all his upgrades and her state of mind. The fact that she still held out like that is proof enough of her ability. Had there been no emotional distress, no Mad Enchantment steroids, and no swords that are like Kryptonite to the opponent, Artuira would have had him on the ground in minutes.

Also, accusing me of Waifuism because you can't come up with a better constructive argument when you are the one clearly displaying fanboyism for Lancelot.

[LJ3]

For the record, I do follow the canon example that Kojiro and Lancelot are more skilled with the sword than Saber.

I just find it weird that Mad Enhanced Lancelot who isn't suffering from skill loss would lose to a (iirc) 32 NP barrage from GoB while Saber ended up going against a GoB that was pretty much coming all around her. Avalon boost (it has been a while since I've read Fate)?

[Leftovers]

I believe a significant step in the life of every waifu-worshipper is the acceptance of the fact that his waifu cannot possibly be the best at everything, and that it's better to accept that than dive head-first into every single argument hell-bent to defend her honour. But I digress.

So you're saying every piece of propaganda about "this person is the best at this" in a bio or description should be taken 100% seriously and is absolute word of god? Ok then since Saber is always called "the greatest Servant" or "the strongest Servant" then by Word of God she is superior to everyone in every sense of the word.

Word of God, in-text evidence, complimentary Materials and dictionary entries are literally the TYPE-MOON Canon. If you're disputing the Mushroom, you better fucking have a good explanation, or you'll get laughed out of the thread every time. Also, yours is a retarded argument. Also, Gilgamesh.

I'm talking about the Servants. Before finding out who he was, Saber was pwning, then she realizes who he is and loses the will to fight him, only blocking his attacks in defense. Not to mention he has a sword that she is naturally weak against, and his abilities are boosted and thanks to the skill you keep bringing up, he doesn't lose his technique as a result. So that fight was basically a fight where Saber isn't willing to go on the offense, and her opponent is basically a crazed Lancelot on steroids weilding a sword that is like Kryptonite to her, and you want to say that her being beaten on was because of inferior technique? HA! Don't make me laugh. If he was already superior to her in pure technique, she would have been dead long before Lancelot ran out of juice when you consider all his upgrades and her state of mind. The fact that she still held out like that is proof enough of her ability. Had there been no emotional distress, no Mad Enchantment steroids, and no swords that are like Kryptonite to the opponent, Artuira would have had him on the ground in minutes.

I don't give a flying fuck. The one single point I wanted to make is that no, Arthur isn't the best sword wielder/best at swordsmanship, while you felt the need to bring up the fights because you couldn't accept that fact. I supported my case, you flip-flopped between several other things irrelevant to my point. Your counterargument as pertaining to my claim is "Nasu is a liar that spreads anti-Sabre propaganda".

Also, accusing me of Waifuism because you can't come up with a better constructive argument when you are the one clearly displaying fanboyism for Lancelot.

Au contraire, I rarely jump in arguments while having a dog in the fight, because I know rabid fanboyism inevitably leads to increasingly desperate arguments and subsequent loss of credibility. Waifus are the cancer that is killing *insert fandom here*, after all.

because you can't come up with a better constructive argument

No.

[Jacktheinfinite101]

For the record, I do follow the canon example that Kojiro and Lancelot are more skilled with the sword than Saber.

"Canon". Again, going on every "this person is the best at this" statement in a bio does not equal a canon fact, as the statements are relying on sales puff to make a character seem badass. Hence why Saber is always called "the strongest servant" when Herk and Gil are superior. There's never, as far as I know, a direct statement that compares the abilities of Lance or Kojiro with Saber's, because they don't need to, the source materials speak for themselves. Kojro's "unmatched" technique is fended off by Saber, forcing him to use his hax Second Magic manipulating attack, only for that to fail as well. Lancelot, see my previous post.

[Leftovers]

"Canon". Again, going on every "this person is the best at this" statement in a bio does not equal a canon fact, as the statements are relying on sales puff to make a character seem badass.

literally rofling

the source materials speak for themselves

Oh, do they now? That's a relief, I guess.