CM4 is (supposed to be) coming sometime this year. C'mon, mike, just wait a little longer to hear Nasu's explanation of HF Normal before assuming anything here.
No, I'm saying the author is fully in control of his own work, if it was really important he could if he wished, patch the game to add a line specifically stating, "this sword I hold is not quite right, but it will do" but he doesn't need to, that's what side material is for.
I don't even know what the big argument is anyway, was shirou tracing Excalibur supposed to be a big part of that fic of yours or something?
Seems unlikely that it would be in there. If he had wanted to explain HF Normal he probably would have done it in CM3 (the one with the Q&A).Originally Posted by Hyarion
What's he planning to put in there anyway?
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Again, tracing does not work that way. Shirou cannot say "I'm going to trace Excalibur", and then come up with a superficially similar sword. If he could, he could have used the Azoth sword as a base for the Jewelled sword. Shirou's tracing works in a "photographic" manner. He sees something, and he then traces it. The result may well be an imperfect version of the weapon he is trying to trace (and, indeed, always will be, to some extent) but it is still recognisably that weapon, and works in the same way as it.
Ea he cannot trace at all, not even imperfectly, and indeed he cannot even read it. Trying to put Excalibur on the same level would mean he cannot read that either, and if that were the case he wouldn't even be able to try tracing it. He knows swords too well to mistake two weapons because of superficial similarities.
The only way I can see out of this is if Nasu is either saying that he couldn't trace a perfect version of it (but that applies to every sword, so I don't see why Excalibur would be special) or else he means "he can't trace it without killing himself" (but, again, that does not put it on the same level as Ea). Anything else is a non-sensical retcon which makes the game invalid if it's true, and thus must be assumed to be false if we wish the Nasuverse to have any kind of canon at all.
I think you're being somewhat optimistic there....
Nasu is renowned for making shit up, performing random retcons and forgetting what he said in the past, and there's no reason to assume that he'll even work out what he's done by the next CM book. Plus, given the amount of outrageous fan-wanking that much of the fandom is willing to do to justify it, I don't see why he'd bother.
Except that it does not work that way.
He is indeed in control of the content of the game, but he is not the sole arbiter of what is and isn't valid. As far as I am concerned, what matters is not what Nasu thinks now, but what he thought when he published the game itself. Once the game is released, he cannot then change his interpretation of it and what is canon willy-nilly. To do so makes any attempt at interpreting it futile, because Nasu could just suddenly decree that the whole story has changed totally.
The "death of the author" doctrine is one which you should take note of here. Whilst I don't agree fully with that viewpoint, because I think that the author is best placed to interpret his own work, I do believe that he has no more fundamental right to change what happened retroactively than anyone else does. What matters is not how he wanted it to be or wants it to be now, but how he interprets what actually happened. So, if he decides to outright retcon things, then I am perfectly within my rights to ignore his retcon, because it's just stupid.
No, it's just complete bullshit to claim that he can't do it when the game quite clearly shows that he does.I don't even know what the big argument is anyway, was shirou tracing Excalibur supposed to be a big part of that fix of yours or something?
Honestly, what annoys me is the fact that so many people are willing to go to ridicuous lengths to canonise something that was almost certainly a throw-away comment made by Nasu without any realisation of what he was saying in favour of the much more well-thought-out primary game canon, just because the throw-away comment came later. When someone makes a stupid poorly-thought-out retcon due to answering some throw-away question without sufficient thought as to what he's said previously on the topic, there is nothing whatsoever wrong with just ignoring it and saying "ah, well, he made an error, never mind". And, yet, most of you seem willing to contort your minds in all sorts of ways to get around having to do this.
H pictures from the Ilya and taiga routes?
The same reason that Striking Death Flight doesn't explode like a bomb, but splits into a shower of thorns.
For the lawlz.
Well, it's possible and, if he comes up with an explanation which actually holds water, I'll go along with it. But, until he does, I'm going to have to assume that it's either a poorly-thought-out attempt at retconning primary canon, or else that we're just misinterpreting what he really meant in such a way that allows Shirou to trace Excalibur after all.
The RA thing has been around for a long time.
I thought it was from Side Material.
i'm thinking Nasu means the sword is an unaware modification shirou made intended to produce the same output effect as Excalibur basically a rigged up copy by way of substitution. but since at the time shirou could tell left from right he couldn't (and thus we couldn't) be told it wasn't Excalibur.further he doesn't know any swords "like Excalibur" which would produce the exact same effect.
of course I like his powers to not have so many plot holes so i'm inclined to ignore it myself
He occasionally repeats himself, there was also that 7 counter guardians thing again, or maybe it's that servants were based off the CGs, can't remember which, or possibly it was both
On an unrelated note, HAI food!
The thing is, Shirou's magic does not work like that. He essentially has a photographic memory for swords, and even if the two look superficially similar he would know if he was picking the "wrong one", because to him they all have jumbo-sized labels in his mind, saying "Excalibur", or whatever.
Even if he himself would not notice what he was tracing, there's no way he could look through the possibilities to find one that's "like Excalibur" without realising it. It's like looking for a file on a computer. If you ask your computer to open Excalibur.jpg, and it can't find it, it's not going to come back to you with Excalipoor.jpg as the closest available substitute. You either get Excalibur or you get a "file not found" error. You can, of course, run a search for files that are similar to Excalibur.jpg, but to do that, you actually need to be consciously aware of doing it.
Yeah, this.of course I like his powers to not have so many plot holes so i'm inclined to ignore it myself
It simply doesn't make sense.
It might if your computer was in the middle of a complete system crash.
Let's keep in mind, however shirou's power normally works, the UBW was literally GUTTING HIM. he couldn't tell his ass from his toenails at that point, he is the definition of an undeniable narrator.
uh mike. again as much as it pains me Archer = shirou. archer can modify his weapons thus shirou has the ability to as well.The thing is, Shirou's magic does not work like that.
thus it could be a mishmash of different weapons the base of which was the idea Excalibur
It could be Caliburn for all we know, which seems to be Shirou's default "blurry sword in my head".
No, it wouldn't, because file systems do not work that way.
That's why I picked that particular analogy because searches and similarities are handled at a higher level. The base file system has no ability to tell that two files are similar (or, even, identical), and nor does the low-level system. So, even if it's not working properly, it could not "accidentally" return a similar but not identical file when you searched for something that's not there.
Yes, which is my point. He cannot perform a search for "Excalibur or the closest similar weapon", he'd have to actually try tracing Excalibur first, realise it wasn't there and then look for the alternative. Because, until he noticed that Excalibur was not there, he would have no reason not to try it, and the only way he could go beyond that to trying something similar is if his mind registered "hey, Excalibur isn't possible after all, better do something else".Let's keep in mind, however shirou's power normally works, the UBW was literally GUTTING HIM. he couldn't tell his ass from his toenails at that point, he is the definition of an undeniable narrator.
Shirou can modify weapons, yes, but not internally. He stores the default weapon in UBW and then manually makes alterations to it after he begins the tracing process (possibly then re-storing the altered version). He can't do it "by accident" like you're claiming.
But, other than both being associated with King Arthur (and being named after the same sword due to lolNasu), Caliburn and Excalibur have nothing in common. You could not accidentally confuse the two.
Your reasoning here is bad. Intending to trace Excalibur and then getting not-Excalibur is a completely different situation from tracing the Jewelled sword, because he had actually seen Excalibur. Tracing not-Excalibur based on his mental image of Excalibur has no relation whatsoever to his inability to trace the Jewelled sword onto the Azoth sword using a blueprint.
In any case, I'm still partial to my personal bit of fanwank that the "untraceable" things are things that short-circuit Shirou's tracing methodology, though not necessarily at the same step which is why the result can vary from "crappy imitation" to "can't even comprehend". And then, the only things that count as actually "replicated" are the things that make it through the entire process, even if everything Shirou comes up with is naturally weaker than the original.
But of course I like it, since it's mine. Besides, don't the CGs in Realta Nua basically show Shirou making a Black Excalibur that shoots golden beams? That basically means that what he made doesn't really work like the real Excalibur in the first place. Unless I'm misremembering.
Well, Black Excalibur is only black because it has Saber's dark prana flowing through it. It's still the same basic sword. So, if Shirou were to trace it, it would turn white again.
Right, but I don't think it was, was it? Which would be weird if it really was Excalibur. But I also don't remember if they ever showed the result of his projection, or just what he intended to project.
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