The Grail Works Mission Dossier (Discussion & Ideas)

[SeiKeo]

...ideas. They are good. Aaaaact, talkan tieeeem~

[Megaolix]

Sadly...

Even Anora would question Loghain should he side against Cailan. And it wouldn't take long for the Banns to all side against him (either out of loyalty to the King or because Cailan is easier to influence in their favor). Even the soldiers directly under him would hesitate to actively act against the King.

Sadly, for the plot the work, Cailan must die.

[Hymn of Ragnarok]

Probably

I won't deny that the plot would run much more smoothly with Cailan dead. There are certainly themes that such an outcome would favor. The more obviously favorable position for the Banns is supporting the so called 'imposter.' Loghain won't be able to sell that line without serious support.

That said...how many families would openly support Loghain, proclaiming him as the best man to stop the Blight, but plant sedition so that Loghain's influence is due to end after the Blight is over. Denying Loghain the prestige won by stopping the Blight wouldn't be easy, but it's not impossible either. If doing so gets public support to throw Loghain and Anora out of power, some ambitious family may take the chance so they can stake a claim. It's no doubt a much harder sell for the authors, but I don't think it's a dead end. Not in a world with Assassin guilds. Guilds who may also have a vested interest in rotting the power base of Fereldan.

I haven't played DA2 yet, but would there be an outside influence that may pull strings to harm Fereldan?

And for the record, do you agree that Duncan surviving doesn't derail the plot? I always assumed he died to give the player character leadership.

[SeiKeo]

DA2

DA2 doesn't effect DA... except for the ending which sets up something that'll effect the entire world in a big way.

[Hymn of Ragnarok]

Actually, I was thinking more along the lines of DA2 having organizations that, being foreign, may not be friendly towards Fereldan. Or a puppeteer that may call in favors or skew the odds in such a way that unlikely outcomes become more feasible. This is Bioware, there's gotta be at least one shadowy organization with mysterious intent.

[SeiKeo]

...regrettably, most of the DA2 plot is so forgettable that I don't recall if there were any.

[Megaolix]

King and Duncan

While it COULD be pulled off, I think it would be way too hard to make the plot truly believable with Cailan living. Beside, considering they accepted Alistair as a choice for King, bloodline play a big role here: Maric was simply too important for Ferelden for them to dismiss without a good reason.

As for Duncan, I see no problem except at the end. Alistair commented that Duncan's death would have come soon had he not died at Ostagar. Thus, he will not accept Jeanne sacrificing herself since if he's going to die anyway, he will finish the Archdemon himself. How shall Jeanne sacrifice herself to kill it and return to the Throne (or Grail works) then?

[Hymn of Ragnarok]

...regrettably, most of the DA2 plot is so forgettable that I don't recall if there were any.

...Crap.

Megaolix

Hmm. Well, Cailan dying is definitely going to set the tone for the story, even if Ostagar isn't quite as big a disaster. It does limit options. I myself won't discard the possibility of Cailan living, but agree that making it work would take considerable effort. Unless Cailan living is important to an overarching theme, it should probably be put on the backburner.

As for Duncan sacrificing himself, that doesn't mean he'll be successful. Yeah, he's probably going to die soon. If he dies before he reaches the Archdemon though, it's up to Jeanne to save the day. You could milk a fair bit of dramatic tension from Jeanne or Duncan being resolved to be the one to stop the Blight, especially if Jeanne's holy shrouds can cure Grey Wardens of the taint. Jeanne could entrust Duncan with a shroud to use, should she be the one to stop the Blight. Then he has a new lease on life. Neither wants the other to sacrifice themselves, but they resolve to wait until they battle the Archdemon to see how it plays out. No sense in making an agreement in bad faith.

As for whether Jeanne would return to the Throne or Grail Works after sacrificing herself...that's an interesting point. Could Grail Works set up a system to recapture her spirit after using her NP, so she could be healed and redeployed, or is that cheapening the sacrifice motif? Given how integral Jeanne's death is to her NP, I'm inclined to say she dies.

Jeanne is a martyr. In life she may have been another human, but as a Heroic Spirit Joan of Arc is a martyr. She is the one person in Grail Works who is unlikely to die a peaceful death. I would characterize Jeanne as a person that, while not seeking death, knows that she will die. Jeanne has a destiny even now (or so she believes), and she will die with her Noble Phantasm in her hand. She will cherish the life she has all the more knowing she may be called to give her life at any moment, and willing call the flames of her funeral pyre to smite evil.

Another Idea

It occurs to me that one of Morrigan's goals was to seduce a Grey Warden. Jeanne's a dead end from Morrigan's perspective. Alistair on his own may be vulnerable under the right circumstances. Duncan is probably considerably less so, and if he did live the chance of successfully seducing Alistair without him running to Duncan for advice is depressingly low. Possible given the right circumstances, but Duncan is no fool. Unlike the player and Alistair he is not lacking in background knowledge, so he is far less likely to fall for Morrigan's ploys. Genuine affection and a relationship would probably be Morrigan's best bet, and it would be very hard to sell Alistair and Morrigan. IMO at least. Duncan and Morrigan actually makes some sense when I think about it, but I wouldn't get my heart set on it at this point in time.

So while Morrigan is tearing her fair out in frustration, Jeanne could continue being oblivious and encourage Morrigan to try and find love. That could be an utterly delightful conversation.

[Megaolix]

The end

Well yeah, Jeanne will die and even if they resummon her, it would only be another copy from the Throne and wouldn't have those memories unless Grail Works have something for it.

So... Why would Jeanne agree to act in the whole Dragon Age scenario again? It's not like it's her country and it would only be one from many alternate. In fact, considering her faith in God, how wil she take the whole Maker business?

Now, talking about this is all nice and well, but is there even someone who would write it? I certainly don't mind giving fuel to the plot with ideas, but that's it.

[nununu]

The same way Jews, Christians and Muslims handle having the same God? Oh wait.

[Hymn of Ragnarok]

Hmm. Think I can ditch the spoilers for this one.

I can't think of a reason for her to refuse the summoning. I mean, short of a Revelation on the Throne of Heroes, why would she stay or not send a copy? If she doesn't know why she's being summoned, why refuse? If she does know, then Grail Works has the purest intentions you're likely to find. I think the better question is to ask is, assuming she accepts the summons, what scenario would make her refuse a request? A Revelation? I can't think of anything else. She didn't fight for country, she fought for God. IIRC.

As for the Maker...well, two scenarios come to mind: 1. The Maker is God, with His name being corrupted by human translations over the years. That's a bit of a long shot since there's no widespread variation of the religion like Judism, Christianity, and Muslim. 2. Refuse that the Maker is God. Not even a facet of God, because why would God use another name? There are examples of it today that are widely known in the information age, but would there have been in Jeanne's time? Would such examples have been accepted? So yeah, on the theology side, I'm not sure. It is deserving of thought.

Now, talking about this is all nice and well, but is there even someone who would write it? I certainly don't mind giving fuel to the plot with ideas, but that's it.

I think LeopardBear and PhoenixAct are hammering out details for a collaboration.

[nununu]

Like I pointed out, the The Maker wouldn't be the the point of contention religion-wise. It would be Andraste.

[Hymn of Ragnarok]

Like I pointed out, the The Maker wouldn't be the the point of contention religion-wise. It would be Andraste.

It's certainly the more important point to the locals, yes. I think The Maker would potentially be a bigger sticking point with Jeanne herself, until they start calling her Andraste to her face.

[Kieran]

Now, talking about this is all nice and well, but is there even someone who would write it? I certainly don't mind giving fuel to the plot with ideas, but that's it.

That's what I want to know - I know just enough about Dragon Age to find this thoroughly intriguing - and besides, I'd like to see others play with the Grail Works - that's why it's there.

I think LeopardBear and PhoenixAct are hammering out details for a collaboration.

Excellent.

[SeiKeo]

I think LeopardBear and PhoenixAct are hammering out details for a collaboration.

Tis the plan, verily. Although, Act is writing what we're all here for.

[burningclaw2]

Akiha, Kohaku, and Hisui in Fairy Tail.

[Hymn of Ragnarok]

Tis the plan, verily. Although, Act is writing what we're all here for.

To be fair, Les Yay is great but Jeanne turning the setting on its head would be a pleasure to read. Leliana happens to be an extremely tempting target. There are plenty of other opportunities for character development.

I'm having a hard time coming up with ideas to stack the odds against Jeanne though.

[SeiKeo]

I'm having a hard time coming up with ideas to stack the odds against Jeanne though.

Oh man actual ideas are you sure you want to look?

Been throwing around a few things. First, Orzammar is going to be fun. Dwarves already distrust humans and the Chantry. When a human rumored to be the reincarnation of their saint shows up... That'll be hard. Second, some elements of the Chantry may not like it. Dinner, may elaborate later.

[Megaolix]

I'm having a hard time coming up with ideas to stack the odds against Jeanne though.

Ideas

Grail Works can't just supply Jeanne with unlimited power, so reduced stats? And if she burns more for bigger fights, even more reduced stats for a while to recover?

Also, some may hear Jeanne whens he says she isn't Andraste, which may rile up those who believe she is. Internal fights due to ehr mere presence. And what would the Chantry think too?

And if the Tevinter hears about this... Oh boy. More Crows or they'll send in their own when they hear one group failed to have her killed?

Also, some things out there ARE far older than she is and should be more than capable of putting up a fight.

[Larekko12]

If you really need Cailan to Die there are always random acts of Stupidity and food acidents and the Good old fashion Flemeth saw something and assinated him for you in Metatextual context.