Conception/Zero (Fate/Zero x Shin Megami Tensei Crossover)

[Mike1984]

True, Sakura isn't "unfit", but there's also the fact that, from an Evolutionary stand point, one human life doesn't really *matter*.

No, of course not, but being a "Darwinist" does not literally mean "someone who believes in evolution"....

I mean that I'm a creationist. That I believe that micro-evolution does happen, but not macro-evolution.

Well, then, you're dead wrong, because there is a huge amount of evidence in favour of macro-evolution. I'm not an evolutionary biologist, unfortunately, but I am a cosmologist, so if you want to argue about that, then please go ahead. Or, are you going to go for the entirely inconsistent approach of saying "well, I believe in that, but then God somehow waved his hands and created the world seperately for no apparent reason"?

[Lycodrake]

Well, then, you're dead wrong, because there is a huge amount of evidence in favour of macro-evolution. Or, are you going to go for the entirely inconsistent approach of saying "well, I believe in that, but then God somehow waved his hands and created the world seperately for no apparent reason"?

"[I'm] dead wrong" and "inconsistent"...wow, those really help your argument or stand point.

I have hope. What does evolution or Darwinism have at the end of the road? I'm honestly curious.

[Kotonoha]

What does evolution or Darwinism have at the end of the road?

Evolution has... well, every living creature that's on the earth today. That's not a bad result.

[Mike1984]

"[I'm] dead wrong" and "inconsistent"...wow, those really help your argument or stand point.

Well, I suspect that trying actual logical arguments won't work, since anyone who could believe in Creationism despite the wall of evidence against it probably isn't really thinking too hard about their belief....

I have hope. What does evolution or Darwinism have at the end of the road? I'm honestly curious.

Erm, you do realise that Evolution is a scientific theory and not a religious belief, right? You can believe in it without letting it control your life, and without in any way diminishing your religion....

[Lycodrake]

Evolution has... well, every living creature that's on the earth today. That's not a bad result.

And? Doesn't creationism have that, too? Or is "creationism" to all of you, just a sad delusion of weak-minded people? That has no fact in it at all?
Because that surely is a way to explain to me why I'm wrong and why you're right. Note the sarcasm.

Well, I suspect that trying actual logical arguments won't work, since anyone who could believe in Creationism despite the wall of evidence against it probably isn't really thinking too hard about their belief....

Wow...you just used a logical fallacy right there. You know the one? I can't quite place the name for it, but it has to do with using "blanket terms to describe entire groups".

[Erlkonig]

Guys, take it to PMs. Let's not start the spam bandwagon again.

[Kotonoha]

And? Doesn't creationism have that, too? Or is "creationism" to all of you, just a sad delusion of weak-minded people? That has no fact in it at all?
Because that surely is a way to explain to me why I'm wrong and why you're right. Note the sarcasm.

I wouldn't put it so bluntly, but I don't believe in creationism.

It just seemed like you were implying that evolution doesn't "have anything at the end of the road" but creationism does? They're both just different views of "why are all these animals here"...

[Trevelyan]

I know I shouldn't cry, because Atlus gets off on my tears. But still I weep.

This is not the "derp about science and belief systems" thread. Please get thine selves hence immediately.

[Mike1984]

And? Doesn't creationism have that, too?

Yes, and?

This is not a game of "which theory gives the best outcome", this is a simple question of which theory actually fits with the evidence in front of us. And I have never seen a single piece of evidence in favour of Creationism that can't be disproven with a cursory glance.

Or is "creationism" to all of you, just a sad delusion of weak-minded people? That has no fact in it at all?

I like you, so I'm going to refrain from answering that one....

Because that surely is a way to explain to me why I'm wrong and why you're right. Note the sarcasm.

Well, that's because you are wrong. There is a huge amount of evidence against your viewpoint, and if I had the time I would go and dig it up, I would. Although, since I doubt that even you know your own viewpoint (beyond "my pastor told me I believed this and that I'd go to hell if I didn't stick to it"...), I can't imagine that trying to argue with you is going to bear much fruit.

But, anyway, if you want some simple evidence, just look at your very own body. If we were really "designed", then God did a bloody shitty job of it. We have so much stuff we don't need, or which works perfectly if you happen to live in a normal human environment or only care about breeding, but which is outright disadvantageous for a modern human.

[Lycodrake]

I wouldn't put it so bluntly, but I don't believe in creationism.

It just seemed like you were implying that evolution doesn't "have anything at the end of the road" but creationism does? They're both just different views of "why are all these animals here"...

Fair enough.

I have never seen a single piece of evidence in favour of Creationism that can't be disproven with a cursory glance.

I like you, so I'm going to refrain from answering that one....

Well, that's because you are wrong. There is a huge amount of evidence against your viewpoint, and if I had the time I would go and dig it up, I would. Although, since I doubt that even you know your own viewpoint (beyond "my pastor told me I believed this and that I'd go to hell if I didn't stick to it"...), I can't imagine that trying to argue with you is going to bear much fruit.

But, anyway, if you want some simple evidence, just look at your very own body. If we were really "designed", then God did a bloody shitty job of it. We have so much stuff we don't need, or which works perfectly if you happen to live in a normal human environment or only care about breeding, but which is outright disadvantageous for a modern human.

I don't believe this just because "my pastor told me I believed this and that I'd go to hell if I didn't stick to it". That isn't even close. At all.
...says the person that believes we evolved from an ameoba, without the proper genetic material or DNA (or RNA, I forget) to even start with...
And I don't know if I can explain myself to you at all. Because my expertise isn't in that field.

[Erlkonig]

http://forums.nrvnqsr.com/forumdisplay.php/9-General-Discussion


(Doing this has become all the rage)

[I3uster]

Stop trying to convince people who believe in something that exists outside of logic by definition with logic, Mike.

It doesn't work. It's hillarious to read, but it just doesn't work.

[Mike1984]

I don't believe this just because "my pastor told me I believed this and that I'd go to hell if I didn't stick to it". That isn't even close. At all.

OK, then why do you believe it...?

...says the person that believes we evolved from an ameoba, without the proper genetic material or DNA (or RNA, I forget) to even start with...

OK, who actually taught you evolutionary theory? Because you're so far wrong it's unbelieveable.

We did not evolve from Ameoba (we evolved from single-celled organisms, true, but not Amoeba specifically) and, whilst the original genesis of life is indeed the most shaky part of our existing theory of how we came to be, it's not actually part of the Theory of Evolution per-se (someone could have just put those initial cells there and evolution would work just as well) and, further, even if you could somehow magically disprove Evolution, that does not in any way prove Creationism correct. You cannot prove a theory simply by disproving all alternatives, you need actual evidence for said theory, and you have precisely none.

Further, experiments in laboratories have succeeded in producing the chemicals needed for life to evolve from the likely primordial atmosphere which, whilst not proving that such a thing happened, makes it at least plausible. Which is more evidence than you have for Creationism.

Stop trying to convince people who believe in something that exists outside of logic by definition with logic, Mike.

It doesn't work. It's hillarious to read, but it just doesn't work.

Well, yeah, I know that, but I'm at least trying to make him recognise that. And to stop my respect for him plummeting through the floor....

[I3uster]

Well, if you know this then stop for the sake of the OP, please.
Both of you can write pages about this without anybody moving even a centimeter.
You know that he doesn't even try to be logical, on what basis can you even argue with him?

[Kotonoha]

In conclusion, a "crone" is an old woman so Zouken can't be called an "old crone".

(What, that bugged me in the OP.)

[Lycodrake]

OK, then why do you believe it...?

We did not evolve from Ameoba (we evolved from single-celled organisms, true, but not Amoeba specifically) and, whilst the original genesis of life is indeed the most shaky part of our existing theory of how we came to be...

Well, yeah, I know that, but I'm at least trying to make him recognise that. And to stop my respect for him plummeting through the floor....

I believe it because Evolution and Darwinism both degrade the value of the human life. And because I'm "unfit" by your explanation of the definition.

[I3uster]

Deep breathing Mike, no responding.

It itches, but it will go away. Just like a bad rash.

[Mike1984]

I believe it because Evolution and Darwinism both degrade the value of the human life.

No, they don't. Well, Darwinism as a moral belief does, perhaps, but a scientific theory does not and never can, because it's merely a statement of fact. It does not in any way say how we should view other people or how we should live our lives.

And because I'm "unfit" by your explanation of the definition.

As am I, most likely....

But, you cannot deny a scientific theory just because you don't like the consequences of it. It doesn't make it magically disappear, any more than me wishing that Gravity wouldn't exist makes me suddenly able to fly....

[Lycodrake]

Deep breathing Mike, no responding.

It itches, but it will go away. Just like a bad rash.

You know what, never mind. You go on mocking me. Really, go ahead, since that's all I ever seem to hear on here. The same tune like always.
And what does logic have to do when you have a shaky beginning, which Mike even stated?

The only encouraging person here on BL seems to be KAIZA.

[Froggie]

First off, Mike, Lycodrake, take it to PMs and and stop derailing.

Both of you, just stop.

It’s interesting that you’re using Luci’s depiction from SMT 1 and 2. When I read the title, I immediately thought of Nocturne so I was expecting him to show up as either the Elderly Gentleman or the Young Master. It was also interesting that he would know Zouken from before, but considering Luci, that’s not so much of a surprise really, especially considering how Zouken turned out. Maybe that’s even Luci’s fault?

Taking an interest in Sakura and the Matou in general? I suppose Sakura makes a certain sort of sense because of her unique magic, but Luci really doesn’t strike me as the sort to pay any attention to Magi, preferring instead “regular” humans for his clashes against the Absolute One.

Then again, even the fact that he’s taking even a passing interest in Sakura, regardless of the reasons it might hold, is enough to make me cringe. Luci’s NOT a good guy. He might want you to think that he’s noble and gallant, but, in the end, he’s just the same as the Absolute One, willing to trample over anyone and everyone to achieve his objectives and he’s devilishly devious about it to boot.

The Absolute One will order you to follow him and punish you if you don’t.

Luci will trick you into thinking that following him with sweet words and make you think it was your own idea…

Here’s hoping the poor girl manages to find the Neutral path or she’s just going to break horrendously.

Then again, watching people break horrendously is one of the things I love so I wouldn’t mind that either…

On a related note, I really don’t think that a young Sakura has the strength (or the lack of it…) to go down the True Demon path of her own will, unless she’s tricked into it.

At any rate, even if there’s a reason for Luci to be interested in Sakura (and I hope there is one or I’m calling shenanigans), if she’s not willing to fight for it on her own, he’ll simply dismiss her and move on. He just doesn’t care.

Then again, if this is going down SMT 1 and 2 paths, everything I’ve said is pretty much moot since I haven’t played those. At any rate, this is still rather interesting and I’d be willing to check out a few more chapters to see if my interest will remain or wane.