Fate/stay night - All Routes

[Bargadiel]

It doesn't matter who it is, if there is a character who's subject to despair and abuse, and there is a route that doesn't involve that character as much, then shes/hes not important there. It's taken into perspective, because if a person like Shirou ended up knowing about Sakura's condition in the other routes, then they would all become Heaven's Feel because of his mentality. Thinking that she needs to be accounted for in all routes is no better than thinking the same way Shirou does. You can't save everyone. This is comparative to Kohaku/Hisui's situation in Tsukihime. Shiki apparently got the ribbon from Kohaku, and had it in all routes. But if you choose not to focus on them then they just don't become important, even if they really are. At that point it just comes down to the person playing the game and how they feel about it, so you can't blame others for thinking in such a way or vice versa.

[Hermitfold]

Well, yes, definitely. If any one of them is to blame, it's Rin and not Shirou.

... And why is Rin to blame? She had no idea of what was going on, any more than Shirou did.

[Gilgamesh]

That doesn't change the fact that Nasu essentially forces you to either pick Sakura, or to forsake her entirely, which was my original point.

Actually, he doesn't force you to PICK any of them. Because you can't pick. You have to read every route and read them in order. You can pick which character and route you like the best personally, sure. But just because you like Sakura doesn't mean you can't still like Fate and UBW just because it doesn't end happy for her. If you personally feel that way then that sucks, actually, because I am damn sure that wasn't what Nasu intended. No author would want to make his fans dislike 2/3rds of the work. I think you are projecting intentions onto Nasu that were never there. You are supposed to be able to enjoy each route individually as well as part of the overall story of F/SN, and that is what I personally do.

[AstralSword]

... And why is Rin to blame? She had no idea of what was going on, any more than Shirou did.

She knew Sakura was living in a different house of magus. Sure, she didn't knew what was actually happening to her sister, but she never even talked to Sakura. I am not saying she is to blame, but she knew much more about her sister's condition than Shirou (as usual).

Heh, Shirou didn't even knew Sakura was her sister.

[Mike1984]

... And why is Rin to blame? She had no idea of what was going on, any more than Shirou did.

Because she should know. Shirou, at least, has the excuse of knowing nothing of the Matou family, magic in general or Sakura's adoption and having Sakura always act happy around him. Rin knows Sakura is usually depressed (except around Shirou) and she knows what magi are like. She should at least make some effort to work out why Sakura is depressed, especially since she's taking the guy who Sakura quire obviously loves more than anything (and who is the only person who can make her happy) away to London with her.

Actually, he doesn't force you to PICK any of them. Because you can't pick. You have to read every route and read them in order. You can pick which character and route you like the best personally, sure. But just because you like Sakura doesn't mean you can't still like Fate and UBW just because it doesn't end happy for her. If you personally feel that way then that sucks, actually, because I am damn sure that wasn't what Nasu intended. No author would want to make his fans dislike 2/3rds of the work. I think you are projecting intentions onto Nasu that were never there. You are supposed to be able to enjoy each route individually as well as part of the overall story of F/SN, and that is what I personally do.

That may not have been his intention, but after playing HF I simply cannot like the Fate or UBW endings, especially UBW. All I feel is anger at Rin for being such a totally shitty sister. After everything Sakura has been through in her life, she deserves a lot better than to just be cast aside by the two people she loves whilst they fuck off to London together. He may not have intended it to be seen that way, but by leaving Sakura's situation totally unresolved in the first two routes he's caused a massive amount of dissonance between them and HF, particularly given the close relationship between Sakura and the two other surviving main characters (and, indeed, Ilya in Fate).

And, no, it doesn't mean I can't like the routes themselves, but I cannot stand the endings (or, at least the UBW ending), because it's played as being so damn happy whilst Sakura is just being left to suffer without even a mention of what might happen to her. It's just so damn unfair.

[ttestagr]

*sigh*

Again, it turns into all about Sakura with him.


Anyway, Fate is my favorite route. UBW was cool and left me happy and pretty cheerful, while HF was crazy awesome. But Fate actually moved me, got me weepy. Saber's reaction to Shirou's decision not to change the past (as long as you've got enough affection points) touched me more than any other point in the story. And more than anything else, the endings of both characters was heartbreakingly bittersweet. Shirou watching Saber leave, and Saber dying while thinking it was all a dream and hoping to see it again.

HF's normal end is the only other really bittersweet ending, but it just doesn't hit as hard. Sakura losing Shirou is bittersweet, but they saved her. She lives a long life in peace. There is pain there, but when it comes down to it she did have peace after all was said and done. More than that, if I remember correctly she had family. Not half as bittersweet as Saber losing any chance of a real life and Shirou starting on a path towards Counter Guardianship through no fault of their own.

[Gilgamesh]

As soon as youy pick any other route, Sakura gets screwed over which, essentially, forces me, as a Sakura fan, to reject the other two routes entirely. I mean, not only does she not get a (proven) good end, she gets nothing. Nasu seemingly can't even be arsed to tell us what happens to her when he gets the chance (e.g. in Last Episode).

Well, I guess this pretty much confirms what I was saying before. That's a pity that you can't enjoy the majority of F/SN. I love Sakura as a character, but I think that's taking attachment to a fictional character a little too seriously, if it stops you from liking the body of work they appear in because things don't work out for her. It's your personal choice to do so, and I'm not going to say you are wrong in any way, but in turn then you should also respect other people's right to feel differently, and not turn it into an argument.

And what exactly was Nasu supposed to tell us about Sakura in Last Episode? And it's not like it can be addressed in Fate or UBW themselves, as that would completely ruin the revelation of the plot of Heaven's Feel. Once again, you have to keep in mind that despite being three routes, F/SN is a story with a beginning, middle, and end. You have to play the routes in order for a reason.

She knew Sakura was living in a different house of magus. Sure, she didn't knew what was actually happening to her sister, but she never even talked to Sakura. I am not saying she is to blame, but she knew much more about her sister's condition than Shirou (as usual).

Heh, Shirou didn't even knew Sakura was her sister.

Rin had no idea they weren't teaching Sakura as a proper magus. The Tohsaka and Matou families had a treaty not to interfere with each other, and it had been 11 years since she got to have Sakura as a sister. Rin had moved on, sad as it is. Without any reason to suspect that Sakura is being tortured and sacrificed, Rin has no grounds to break the treaty and interfere, and in Fate and UBW, she had no reasons to suspect that.

She is as innocent as Shirou.

[Bargadiel]

It's just so damn unfair.

To be honest I found Fate/Zero really unfair too. It happens.

[Gilgamesh]

To be honest I found Fate/Zero really unfair too. It happens.

I found Fate/Zero to be awesome. But, hey, I'm a Gilgamesh (and Kotomine and Kiritsugu and Alexander) fan, so...

[AstralSword]

Yep. In the end, you can't do anything if you don't know what the problem is, or if there is actually a problem to be solved. I believe Rin is in this position.

I only think that after those years, as she was already grown up, Rin could at least start having some sort of contact with her sister, but this is just a lovable (but still silly) fanboy's desire.

As Tobias said earlier, I am outta here.

Dead tired. Tomorrow I will see what became of this thread.

[Mike1984]

And what exactly was Nasu supposed to tell us about Sakura in Last Episode?

Well, "I saved her from Zouken" would be a nice start....

I mean, if he can make up some bullshit about him going to Avalon and create an extra ending to appease Saber fans, he could at least have the decency to put something in there for the fans of the other characters too. Plus, Last Episode comes at the very end, so to me it falls totally flat because you're expected to go right back to forgetting Sakura just after you've spent and entire route saving her.

And it's not like it can be addressed in Fate or UBW themselves, as that would completely ruin the revelation of the plot of Heaven's Feel.

No, true, but he could easily have given some indication that she would actually be saved.

Once again, you have to keep in mind that despite being three routes, F/SN is a story with a beginning, middle, and end. You have to play the routes in order for a reason.

Of course. But, honestly, that is my point. The "beginning" and "middle" cannot themselves have endings, by definition. And, when you try to stick an ending in there, it ends up falling flat once you've seen the final part of the story due to the revelations made there.

The endings to UBW and Fate are fine on their own, but once you have watched HF, to me the way Sakura's situation is overlooked leaves a very bitter taste in the mouth, especially given how close she is to Rin and Shirou and how important she is to them. After playing through HF and seeing how much Rin truly cares for her sister (and how important Shirou is to Sakura), I find it very hard to stomach the idea of Rin abandoning Sakura to her fate and going off to London with Shirou.

Rin had no idea they weren't teaching Sakura as a proper magus. The Tohsaka and Matou families had a treaty not to interfere with each other, and it had been 11 years since she got to have Sakura as a sister. Rin had moved on, sad as it is. Without any reason to suspect that Sakura is being tortured and sacrificed, Rin has no grounds to break the treaty and interfere, and in Fate and UBW, she had no reasons to suspect that.

She is as innocent as Shirou.

Sorry, but "my great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandfather made a pact" is not a good excuse for ignoring your little sister for eleven years, and it's certainly not an excuse for abandoning her alone in the town with no way of knowing if she'll be OK.

Rin knows that magi can be bastards, and she knows that Sakura is not happy (except around Shirou). I don't give a fuck if there's some 400-year-old non-interference pact, there's no-one around to enforce it and, in any case they pact was broken the moment Sakura moved to the Matou family. Even Rin herself says as much. The minute she walks through the door of the Matou house in HF, she instantly regrets not doing so earlier, even before she knows what Zouken is doing to her. And, further, given how easily she works out what Sakura's "training" consists of, she must surely have had a reasonable idea of what the Matous were capable of beforehand.

To be honest I found Fate/Zero really unfair too. It happens.

Well, yes, it is, really. But, honestly, I don't like Zero all that much either. If it wasn't for the fact that it's a FSN prequel, I would have no interest whatsoever in reading it.

[Bargadiel]

Going back to a purpose of this thread though, It's hard for me to choose a favorite route. =/

I thought the Fate route was okay. Saber remains my favorite character from the nasuverse, although compared to the other two routes, the Fate route was missing alot of flavor. Although I can see why, as it was there to merely help describe Saber's story and introduce us to the concepts used in the other two routes.

UBW was pretty sweet, and there were alot of memorable fights that I loved about it. The focus on Shirou made it feel more true, merely because he is the main character and learning about him more makes sense. Having a character develop by fighting himself is a pretty badass thing to do, and for those who didn't know the Archer twist, to experience it firsthand in UBW is nothing short of amazing, and is definitely memorable.

Heavens Feel felt like the most interesting out of the three routes, the fights were not so predictable (servant vs servant) but instead were unique things like Magi fighting servants and the like. Because of this, I consider it the farthest thing from a holy grail war, as it obviously is, but because of that it makes it much more interesting as it is less predictable. There was always something going on, and definitely some surprises here and there. To this day I remember the feeling I got when Rider rescued Shirou from True Assassin, it was great. Then saber pretty much "dieing" at the very start, then becoming something Shirou himself had to face. Not only that, but as a "dark" character, I was glad they didn't pull her off as one of those predictable anime characters who could be "redeemed" and deep down has some sort of affection for others and can't kill her friends. Back to shirou though, As a character, I think that he developed just as much as he did in Ubw during this route, and although I really like saber, I felt the relationship between him and Sakura felt more realistic than the other two routes. This route also goes into detail in explaining Kotomine's past and connections to Shirou, and that actually made me gain a respect for Kotomine too. Overall, HF was incredibly unique and was a well worthy surprise for somebody reading the visual novel.

However all that said, you then have the Last Episode. Out of everything, I still consider this my true ending to Fate/stay night, and find it really sad in a great way. All that about saber waiting eternally and Shirou pursuing for the rest of his life, basically finding no interest in anyone or anything he became attached to; as if something was missing. When he eventually dies and finds himself in Avalon, he is met by a youthful saber in tears; where the two spend an eternity together in paradise. It's pretty powerful, and I don't regret shedding man tears even for a second.


EDIT: Fate/Zero on the other hand, is something I deem greater than Fate/Stay Night as it's own start-to-end-story. It just kept me on my toes because It establishes these amazing characters, who I felt each had a great variety about them, and basically ended up killing them off. It's crazy to think that this all went on, and these people were forgotten. At least that's how I think of it. The scene where Kiritsugu finishes off Lancer and his two masters is just really strong, and characters like Alexander/Waver were just so well developed and easily made it a fun but exciting read.

[Hermitfold]

Sorry, but "my great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandfather made a pact" is not a good excuse for ignoring your little sister for eleven years, and it's certainly not an excuse for abandoning her alone in the town with no way of knowing if she'll be OK.

Rin knows that magi can be bastards, and she knows that Sakura is not happy (except around Shirou). I don't give a fuck if there's some 400-year-old non-interference pact, there's no-one around to enforce it and, in any case they pact was broken the moment Sakura moved to the Matou family. Even Rin herself says as much. The minute she walks through the door of the Matou house in HF, she instantly regrets not doing so earlier, even before she knows what Zouken is doing to her. And, further, given how easily she works out what Sakura's "training" consists of, she must surely have had a reasonable idea of what the Matous were capable of beforehand.

Again, you're oversimplifying the issue. From our perspective, it's easy to say 'Rin should have done this', or whatever. Don't forget the fact that Sakura said nothing to her either. Judging from her convo with Shirou in UBW, she clearly thought that Sakura resented her, which is part of the reason why she said nothing. it's just a case of poor communication, no one is to be blamed.

[Counterguardian]

Innocence due to ignorance is an entirely valid moral point that seems to be overlooked here.

To say otherwise is to bring prejudice to the equation, in which case it's no longer about justice and more about vengeance.

[Mike1984]

Again, you're oversimplifying the issue. From our perspective, it's easy to say 'Rin should have done this', or whatever. Don't forget the fact that Sakura said nothing to her either. Judging from her convo with Shirou in UBW, she clearly thought that Sakura resented her, which is part of the reason why she said nothing. it's just a case of poor communication, no one is to be blamed.

But Rin herself says that she should have done that.

And, Sakura and Rin's situations are in no way comparible. Sakura can't ask Rin for help, because Zouken wouldn't allow it (and would punish her severely for it), and further it might endanger Rin for her to do so. Further, Sakura has extremely low self-esteem, due to her abuse, and thus expects Rin not to care which, coupled with the fear of what Zouken might do to her if she tries and the fear for Rin's own life, explains why she dare not ask for help. Rin, on the other hand, has nothing whatsoever stopping her doing so, other than some vague promise to her long-dead father. She does not do it because she is more bothered about some stupid 400-year-old pact than about ensuring the well-being of her own little sister, and thus she is to blame, at least a little.

I can forgive Rin for it at the stage of FSN, because, ultimately, she's only 16 and she's very much beholden to her father's idiocy, but if she fails to look beyond that in the future and attempt to reach out to her sister, then I would find it a lot harder to forgive her for the suffering (and eventual death) that Sakura will be condemned to as a result.

Innocence due to ignorance is an entirely valid moral point that seems to be overlooked here.

Yes, bur guilt due to negligence is an equally valid moral point, and I would argue that Rin's attitude to Sakura is sometimes just plain negligent, especially if she does just leave for London without making sure Sakura is OK first. She's ignorant of what Sakura is going through because, honestly, I don't think she even wants to find out, at least subconsciously. It's much more convinient for her to just overlook the whole thing and pretend Sakura's life is just wonderful despite all the evidence to the contary.

[Gilgamesh]

Well, "I saved her from Zouken" would be a nice start....

I mean, if he can make up some bullshit about him going to Avalon and create an extra ending to appease Saber fans, he could at least have the decency to put something in there for the fans of the other characters too. Plus, Last Episode comes at the very end, so to me it falls totally flat because you're expected to go right back to forgetting Sakura just after you've spent and entire route saving her.

True, but the way I see it, Last Episode is an epilogue of the Fate route. He COULD have made it so Shirou saved her in the Fate route, sure, but I don't find it necessary. Sakura does not get a happy ending in Fate and UBW. If this forces you to dislike these routes and only like HF, that is unfortunate, but entirely your prerogative. It is not, however, the fault of the author or the people who don't think it is necessary. If you can't get over the fact that she doesn't get a happy ending in every route, then it's entirely your own problem.

Of course. But, honestly, that is my point. The "beginning" and "middle" cannot themselves have endings, by definition. And, when you try to stick an ending in there, it ends up falling flat once you've seen the final part of the story due to the revelations made there.

I get what your point is, I'm pretty sure everyone does. But this is a Visual Novel. I've played A LOT of Visual Novels. I've longed learned to accept the fact that by the very nature of having multiple routes that some characters are going to get screwed over in some routes. But seeing them play our drastically differently is part of the APPEAL of VNs with routes. F/SN had the job of being both a linear and coherent story with three acts AS WELL AS being a VN that functions with three routes. It's a tough task, and quite simply, if they had done it the way you seem to want them to do it, F/SN would be a lesser story with less people able to enjoy it.

Sorry, but "my great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandfather made a pact" is not a good excuse for ignoring your little sister for eleven years, and it's certainly not an excuse for abandoning her alone in the town with no way of knowing if she'll be OK.

Uh, yeah it is. That's how the society of magi work. Rin was raised to respect and follow the pacts and laws, even if they are old and meaningless. Sure, when she enters the Matou household, she wishes she had done it beforehand. But Rin is also a victim here. Sakura HERSELF admits this, that's one of the points of their whole big scene together near the end. Sakura was blaming Rin for not saving her at first, but then after that, she realizes that Rin was suffering too and with her own problems. Rin doesn't WANT to leave Sakura alone, but it's been 11 years where she has not been her sister, and she has no grounds to break the pact with the Matou family, a pact she was raised to respect. So, instead, Rin decides to push herself, believing that the more she strives and suffers, the better it'll probably be for Sakura. If you go on blaming Rin for not saving Sakura when Sakura herself did nothing, then you are just having the same point of view and attitude as Dark Sakura at her worst. Rin is not at fault, so back off on that.

[Mike1984]

True, but the way I see it, Last Episode is an epilogue of the Fate route. He COULD have made it so Shirou saved her in the Fate route, sure, but I don't find it necessary. Sakura does not get a happy ending in Fate and UBW. If this forces you to dislike these routes and only like HF, that is unfortunate, but entirely your prerogative. It is not, however, the fault of the author or the people who don't think it is necessary. If you can't get over the fact that she doesn't get a happy ending in every route, then it's entirely your own problem.

What, so Saber gets a special extra scene giving her fucking eternal life with Shirou, and Sakura gets penis-worm-raped to death, and you're expecting me to just be OK with that because it's "not her route"? Plus, I thought that Shirou was supposed to be a superhero. Some fucking superhero that is, not even able to protect one of his best friends because he's too fucking busy running off around the world looking for his long-dead girlfriend.

Uh, yeah it is. That's how the society of magi work. Rin was raised to respect and follow the pacts and laws, even if they are old and meaningless.

Sorry, but that's no fucking excuse. Rin knows that it's stupid, and her father is not there to enforce it.

I thought she was supposed to be intelligent. She should fucking well think for herself for a damn change.

Sakura HERSELF admits this, that's one of the points of their whole big scene together near the end. Sakura was blaming Rin for not saving her at first, but then after that, she realizes that Rin was suffering too and with her own problems. Rin doesn't WANT to leave Sakura alone, but it's been 11 years where she has not been her sister, and she has no grounds to break the pact with the Matou family, a pact she was raised to respect. So, instead, Rin decides to push herself, believing that the more she strives and suffers, the better it'll probably be for Sakura. If you go on blaming Rin for not saving Sakura when Sakura herself did nothing, then you are just having the same point of view and attitude as Dark Sakura at her worst. Rin is not at fault, so back off on that.

Oh, come on, this is just total and utter bullshit.

Rin was only "suffering" because she wanted to train herself, and she could have quite easily broken that pact were she not too far up her own ass to do so. Further, Sakura has precisely zero self-esteem, so she tends to blame herself for stuff that is not in any way her fault.

So, yes, Rin is at fault there. She knows Sakura is not happy, and yet ignores it entirely because it's convinient for her. Then, to top it off, she takes the only guy who ever makes Sakura smile (and, yes, she does know this) off to London with her, possibly without even checking up on Sakura to see if she'll be OK without them.

That's just called being a shitty sister, and I don't give a fuck what her father said, because post-UBW at least she's hopefully grown enough of a spine and brain to overcome all that "true magus" bullcrap. Indeed, if she had not, she wouldn't be with Shirou in the first damn place.

Plus, why the fuck should she be rewarded for her retardedness and ignorance. Because, that's what the UBW endings do. She gets to be happy whilst her sister suffers because she's too damn wedded to some moronic ideal to actually help her.

[Hermitfold]

But Rin herself says that she should have done that.

Hindsight bias. It's easy to say that you should have done whatever or other in hindsight.

And, Sakura and Rin's situations are in no way comparible. Sakura can't ask Rin for help, because Zouken wouldn't allow it (and would punish her severely for it), and further it might endanger Rin for her to do so. Further, Sakura has extremely low self-esteem, due to her abuse, and thus expects Rin not to care which, coupled with the fear of what Zouken might do to her if she tries and the fear for Rin's own life, explains why she dare not ask for help. Rin, on the other hand, has nothing whatsoever stopping her doing so, other than some vague promise to her long-dead father. She does not do it because she is more bothered about some stupid 400-year-old pact than about ensuring the well-being of her own little sister, and thus she is to blame, at least a little.

I can forgive Rin for it at the stage of FSN, because, ultimately, she's only 16 and she's very much beholden to her father's idiocy, but if she fails to look beyond that in the future and attempt to reach out to her sister, then I would find it a lot harder to forgive her for the suffering (and eventual death) that Sakura will be condemned to as a result.

Again, you're thinking of it from the POV of the audience. Rin knows nothing about any of that. So when Rin runs into Sakura and Sakura says nothing to her, she thinks that Sakura isn't talking to her because of the pact or that she hates her. Sakura runs into Rin, Rin says nothing and Sakura thinks she's obeying the pact or plain doesn't care.

[Mike1984]

Again, you're thinking of it from the POV of the audience. Rin knows nothing about any of that. So when Rin runs into Sakura and Sakura says nothing to her, she thinks that Sakura isn't talking to her because of the pact or that she hates her. Sakura runs into Rin, Rin says nothing and Sakura thinks she's obeying the pact or plain doesn't care.

Again, this is not a fucking excuse. Rin should be looking more closely at why Sakura is seemingly not happy, regardless of any fucking retarded "pact".

[mewarmo990]

arguments, arguments everywhere

I got really attached to several of the characters. Say what you will about Nasu's writing, but he did a great job of making me care. Although it took me two HF playthroughs to see past the grimdark.