The Type-Moon Miscellaneous Thoughts Thread

[Dullahan]

when the culture industry outputs the right things...when its ability to program the masses' brain functions is tuned in just the right way...when consumers are never made uncomfortable...when everyone finally GETS ALONG like in the kindergarten classroom of our dizziest daydreams...in short, when all humans come together and finally THINK THE CORRECT THOUGHTS only then will we achieve equality

[SpoonyViking]

What are you even talking about? You told me that the one who wrote that tumblr post cares about the story of FGO and I didn't see any of that shit in the post, just pure typical "y u no pander to my taste". Yet now you're talking about the one who wrote the post pandering to their audience??? Are you saying that the whoever wrote that post had to write it that way so those who read their tumblr would like? What is even going on??

...I have absolutely no idea how you reached any of those conclusions.
Anyway, I'm saying that creating female characters to pander to an audience / treating ambiguously-gendered or trans characters as comedy fodder IS assigning them roles in a story, regardless of whether or not they also have more plot-relevant roles, and criticising such IS caring about their roles in the story.

Or, to quote You's summary of that post:

well the core arguement of the post if you get rid of all the tumblr-speak is
"People like TM for the lore and the characters, not the giant Raikou boobs. There are too many Boudicca boobs in the game."

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when the culture industry outputs the right things...when its ability to program the masses' brain functions is tuned in just the right way...when consumers are never made uncomfortable...when everyone finally GETS ALONG like in the kindergarten classroom of our dizziest daydreams...in short, when all humans come together and finally THINK THE CORRECT THOUGHTS only then will we achieve equality

Do you know that you are just as nihilistic as those you criticise?

[Dullahan]

citation needed

[Snow]

Possibly, yes, but I feel the scene didn't need the juxtaposition of eroticism and violation to be disturbing, and if the intent was to make a commentary on the audience, there should have been some markers of that.

Something being made in a certain way or with a certain intent doesn't limit what you're allowed to read out from it. Authors are a product of their context, our context, time and society, their intent is not the end-all-be-all of ways something can be interpreted precisely because of that, you can and should go deeper. Just like reading inherent objectification in fanservice is an interpretation that scratches below the surface, scratching below the surface of why and what exactly about it upsets you or makes you react a certain way is also going deeper. Which is not a requirement for enjoying media but certainly makes life more interesting and if someone is to claim an in-depth reading of anything, they should keep those things in mind too, even if they might not agree.

Basically, with Berserk the introspective process is rather simple and straightforward compared to some other cases: you see that scene in the manga, and it either disturbs you right-out because of the way it's presented, or you find aspects of it appealing because of the way it's drawn and framed. You think 'hey, SHOULD I be aroused by this? Is that the right reaction I should be having to this material?'. At that point it's neither the artists fault nor responsibility if you do find it arousing, nor is it his responsibility to present it in a way that would be obvious enough not to make you uncomfortable, the media is a mirror for you to look inside your soul and sometimes you won't like what you see there. But it gives you a chance to think about and work on these things without any real-life consequence.

[SpoonyViking]

It's not that I disagree with you, Snow, but I think that reasoning can be used (and often has) to absolve authors of their responsibility over what they create, and if communication is a two-way street - and it is -, the responsibility for interpreting a work shouldn't belong solely to the audience.

[Lily Emilio]

...I have absolutely no idea how you reached any of those conclusions.

Because whoever wrote that post made multiple wrong statements, especially in regard to CCC. They got the role of Gilgamesh wrong and even mistaken that he even has a romance. They said the pandering to male audience yet Gil and Nameless had the best possible endings while Nero and Tamamo stuck on the fucking moon, Tamamo even has to deal with an invasion of her egos. They made the argument about yuri pirates but when I played through the scenes I only think that they are inviting the Master to join for fun in a event designed to be chill and filled with fanservice in the first place. Had FGO done that in the main story then I will have no problem calling it out for being trash. The whole paragraphs about EoR is also bias as hell. They also got the Valentine stuffs wrong, mostly because they have no clue about "obligatory choco" culture in Japan that TM simply followed, that is not pandering to male audiences. They basically wrote many statements that are off the mark with very few valid criticisms in my eyes. That's why I only agreed with the Extella part.

Anyway, I'm saying that creating female characters to pander to an audience / treating ambiguously-gendered or trans characters as comedy fodder IS assigning them roles in a story, regardless of whether or not they also have more plot-relevant roles, and criticising such IS caring about their roles in the story.

No, I disagree. You basically grouped "role for the characters in their story" with "role for the character to connect to the audience" into 1 thing which is why you failed to get my points. A character can have both their roles in the story (as a protagonist, as a villain...etc) as well as connecting with the audience to keep their interest (the narrator role, the exposition character role for example). A character can both be a main character and a self-insert, a character can act sexy both for plot reasons and to arouse the readers while doing so (double purpose). I care about the former, not the latter. To be more exact, I care about things the characters do that drive the story forward and tell something I find interesting. If the character does something for the sake of doing it that has zero plot relevance or character developement, then those are the things I don't care, those are what I grouped into the "pandering to the audience" role. Basically you and I had a different categorizing system.

[SpoonyViking]

Hm, fair enough.

[castor212]

The whole paragraphs about EoR is also bias as hell.

>mfw tumblr guy said EoR 3 romance point and availability includes Raikou

[Snow]

That's not a guy.

[castor212]

*tumblr person

[Deathhappens]

TBH the only point I find valid is Extella being bad with Nasu and Sakurai being extremely horny or something when they wrote the script. Heck I now believe that the reason Tamamo's route was written so that she is constantly horny is because Nasu feared that players will get mad with the "sudden change" in how she acts towards others and drop the game midway, as Chiwa Saitou revealed in her interview with TM Ace that Nasu tried to drop "fox's not actually evil" every time he has the chance.

It's the same thing I've seen from the criticisms against Xenoblade Chronicle 2's oversexualizing female characters to boost sales and even calling the creators out for not addressing it in the illustrator notes where they simply said they chose the direction to represent an idea and they simply liked it.

Both Nero and Tamamo in Extella were...overenthusiastic, so to speak. I attribute it to having "maxed their bond levels" in the previous game, so to speak, but it would definitely be jarring for someone who hasn't played through Extra (and even for someone who has, it was still off-putting at first).

[Lily Emilio]

I attribute it to having "maxed their bond levels" in the previous game

That is just for Nero, because it follows a very similar route to Nero's CCC route. Extella Tamamo felt forced and gave the impression that Nasu had to find a way to put her in there while also preserve the "bond" that Extra and Extra CCC players had with her in the setting that is Nero's Extella world, where Tamamo is not the one who max bond with Hakuno in the first place. Basically what he should've done is keep the same format as the previous 2 games, but then you can't have a setting that is not FGO where both Nero and Tamamo are presented. That decision was also why some ppl shit on the game for wanking Nero and shafted Tamamo, Nameless, Gil, something I'm sure Nasu didn't expect.

[Deathhappens]

That is just for Nero, because it follows a very similar route to Nero's CCC route. Extella Tamamo felt forced and gave the impression that Nasu had to find a way to put her in there while also preserve the "bond" that Extra and Extra CCC players had with her in the setting that is Nero's Extella world, where Tamamo is not the one who max bond with Hakuno in the first place. Basically what he should've done is keep the same format as the previous 2 games, but then you can't have a setting that is not FGO where both Nero and Tamamo are presented. That decision was also why some ppl shit on the game for wanking Nero and shafted Tamamo, Nameless, Gil, something I'm sure Nasu didn't expect.

Nah. Both Nero and Tamamo start out overtly-attached from the word go in their respective routes. And I honestly don't get the "Nero wank" accusation- both Nero and Tamamo achieved the same damn result in their respective routes, and hell, Tamamo is the one who got the happy ending in hers while Nero wound up with MC/FeMC in a coma. Sure, Gil and Nameless got shafted... but so did everyone else who wasn't a female heroine. (Which incidentally loops back to the previous discussion).

[castor212]

The true route has Nero route as a basis

Some people dislike that and scream bloody murder at Sakurai

"Nerds are weird."

[Lily Emilio]

Nah. Both Nero and Tamamo start out overtly-attached from the word go in their respective routes.

That is the writing, not the setting I was talking about, do you not get it? The setting is that the game follows Nero's Extella world that continued after Nero's CCC route where Nero maxed bond with MC, but there's Tamamo in the mix cuz shit happened in Extella Zero. Tamamo being overly attached is not the result of her maxing out the bond with MC, but the writing so that old players still have some sort of connection with the waifu mode Tamamo as they witness her harlot mode.

[Laserman]

I wonder what would be that person's response to the responses on this thread?

[Deathhappens]

That is the writing, not the setting I was talking about, do you not get it? The setting is that the game follows Nero's Extella world that continued after Nero's CCC route where Nero maxed bond with MC, but there's Tamamo in the mix cuz shit happened in Extella Zero. Tamamo being overly attached is not the result of her maxing out the bond with MC, but the writing so that old players still have some sort of connection with the waifu mode Tamamo as they witness her harlot mode.

Regardless of Extella Zero's setting, both Nero and Tamamo were heroines in Extra, hence they start out "over-affectionate" in Extella because they're the players' waifus. And to be honest, though I generally dislike Tamamo, I found the ending of her route (where she once again realises she doesn't need to try so goddamn hard) actually endearing.

[You]

If the FATE summoning system uses the concept of the round table as "a place heroes gather around" as the basis to summon Heroic Spirits. It should be totally possible to replace it with say like an important part of the Argo since that pretty much has a similar concept.

What I'm trying to say is imagine a world where instead of demi-servant Galahad, we had demi-servant Jason.

[Arashi_Leonhart]

is she blonde

[castor212]

Annoying twintail tsundere