The Type-Moon Miscellaneous Thoughts Thread

[castor212]

I never could understand Avalon being called asspull or its variance thereof

[Deathhappens]

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...HourSuperpower

[castor212]

a hint of Foreshadowing earlier on (and hopefully nothing too obvious)

which is what they did with Avalon

really still not seeing what is asspull-y about it

[forumghost]

I mean asspull is probably a bad way of putting it since it was foreshadowed earlier, but it gets the point across.

It was something of a miracle that he kinda pulled almost out of nowhere to secure the win.

[Tobias]

I don’t understand it being out of nowhere either. The central part of king arthur’s Myth was immortality granted by the sheathe.

it would be like if in bizarro fate, saber had Avalon and fought with bajiquan then at the last second shirou returned Excalibur to her and then someone said WTF, where did that sword come from, who would expect King Arthur to have that?! Lol, such asspull.

[Strange_One]

Well. Shirou's brand of projection is asspull magic. Considering all the things we learn later, like the struggles and hazards of doing it, it makes use of Avalon more implausible.

And it's only at the moment he near dead after being eaten by grail mud does he remember and pulls off a functional projection of the divine fairy noble phantasm and actually deploys the NP effect.

But of course I'm sure the whole having Avalon shoved in him most of his life and contract with Seiba is the out for this little thing.

[castor212]

ok, ok, im legit, no sarcasm, confused here

like,

1) the VN clearly said that Avalon back when fighting Kirei was byproduct of his projection
2) before fighting Gil and Kirei Avalon was already planned to be used, he didnt just suddenly remembers it
3) how is something that got properly explained in narration of itd pros and cons an asspull?

srsly, how are you people defining these things that does not count as asspull an asspull

im legit not being ironic here, like

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how are these things asspull?
srsly, how?

[Strange_One]

He gave it to Saber. That was the plan, for her to have a Noble Phantasm to use against Gil. As opposed to having it in him to prevent him from dying when he dies

I mean 'remember' as in, being able to recall the 'blueprints' and project. Which is probably because it was in him since fire.
Also that, why did he wait til he was being eaten by grail mud - a second time even - before doing it if that was the plan? The way that moment is depicted (though it's been awhile since I read it) is that the image of Avalon only comes to him in that dramatic last moment which makes him

project

reach for it

.
I'm not sure if he can consciously do it - the depiction of its first use was in a haze when he was being beaten up by Gil.

I'm using the word asspull lightly when describing projection. His projection and UBW is pretty much the in story way he gets useful things like weapons to fight servants, Rho Aias to block Gil, Rule breaker to save Sakura, Kibisis to switch to top with Rider etc.


Misc. Thought: lol, google is seriously using Shiokawa's picture for Nasu

[forumghost]

Like I said, it was bad wording on my part. It's properly foreshadowed in Shirou's confrontation with Gil, and justified via how Shirou's power works+Him having the original the whole time (which was also well foreshadowed with both Saber's Identity and Shirou's magic healing powers)

It's more that Shirou was... well, he was beaten, he knew it, and then he goes 'Bam, Avalon Bitches!' to pull a out-of-nowhere victory.

Like, I know asspull isn't the right term, but... Iunno. I guess it's no more of a come-behind victory then any of the others.

Still probably my favourite of the Three Climaxes for the VN though. The Dual Activation of Avalon was pretty hype.

[castor212]

thats the thing

like, everytime i heard someone use "asspull" describing something that actually got proper explanation and reason behind it and was actually narrated properly
i really always go


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im not pointing at you specifically, forumghost, its a general thing
its just that i heard plenty people describe Avalon as asspull, both here and outside, and all i can think of is "but thats not even what asspull's definition is...?"

like, am i the weird one here for using the definition of asspull from tvtropes

[Altima of the Gates]

The fact that he says what Rule Breaker does in all 3 routes (go back and check, it's in all 3), is pretty good setup.
Plus, he only thought about using it for Sakura after Ilya explained about the contract with Angra Mainyu.

It's a good example of buildup, proper thought from the MC, and execution. Can't even really allude to it being an asspull.
With Avalon, given he dreams about it and Caliburn, their appearance isn't really asspull-y due to the nature of his powers.

My bad there. To be fair, the narration describing how every punch Shirou received from Kotomine hurt the guy's hands but also made Shirou heal and only increased his rate of becoming swords is really memorable, but the plot stuff related to worms is not so.

Silly as this might be, I guess I can see it since that scene isn't given as many visual cues.

But Sakura pretty much telekinetically trying to wring him out like a towel is something memorable too.
That was actually an interesting facet. Being possessed by AM let her use the person's body like a literal marionette.

[Deathhappens]

thats the thing

like, everytime i heard someone use "asspull" describing something that actually got proper explanation and reason behind it and was actually narrated properly
i really always go


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im not pointing at you specifically, forumghost, its a general thing
its just that i heard plenty people describe Avalon as asspull, both here and outside, and all i can think of is "but thats not even what asspull's definition is...?"

like, am i the weird one here for using the definition of asspull from tvtropes

Going by TvTropes, Avalon falls under Eleventh Hour Superpower, not Asspull. Although YMMV as always.

[SpoonyViking]

A much bigger asspull than Avalon was the whole Greater Grail / Lesser Grail concept being suddenly introduced out of nowhere, just in time to provide a relatively neat answer to how to save Sakura and also not let the Shadow keep eating people.

[Altaris]

TvTropes never fail to come up with dumb and dumber terms

[SpoonyViking]

TvTropes never fail to come up with dumb and dumber terms

Eh, I think the issue is less with the site and more with people using as an authentic scholarship tool.

[castor212]

im like. p sure that the concept of different sort of grails was already a thing at least during UBW route
or at least foreshadowed

[8000]

Yeah, they were talking about greater and lesser grails in UBW. They just didn't elaborate till later.

[fire_mountain_30]

Karl in Extella Link is a white guy with the power to enslave and assimilate all others into his belief system and territory and his 2nd outfit makes him look like something out of Alice in Wonderland


wow. TM isnt being subtle about the Disney criticism

[asterism42]

His second outfit is him cosplaying as a King card, because one of the kings (I forget which, I think it's the King of Hearts?) is actually meant to be Charlemagne.

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OK, yes it's hearts. King of Clubs is Alexander the Great, Diamonds is Julius Caesar and Spades is David.

...New OT4

[SpoonyViking]

Yeah, they were talking about greater and lesser grails in UBW. They just didn't elaborate till later.

Hm. Can you remember when they did that in the novel?