The Type-Moon Miscellaneous Thoughts Thread

[SeiKeo]

Marginally NSFW

And now Zero isn't sexist, we fixed it

[RoydGolden]

"Jankily". Heh. The problem is that the narrative equates her humanity (which is actually the point) with her femininity; as in, the only way for Saber to have a life of her own is for her to be a woman (as defined by a traditional mindset). This is only reinforced by their roles in... ..."Last Dream", I think?... ...where Saber - the woman - takes the traditional, passive role of "eternally waiting", and Shirou - the man - takes the traditional, active role of "eternally pursuing". A few lines at the end about how Shirou finally accepts that she was King Arthur first and foremost (even as he thinks she would have been happier living a different life), after she spent most of the route telling him exactly that, does not erase everything that came before it.

Or, to put it in different terms: I agree with you that Nasu may have intended that, but he botched the execution.

I see what you mean, actually. The core message was that becoming an ideal at the expense of your humanity is wrong, but that's bogged down by the problematic gender elements involved. It comes off as not the sophisticated message that Nasu likely intended (guy's not an idiot) but the simply sophomoric "Girls shouldn't be kings LOLOLOL".

With Saber though, giving up her 'femininity' was part of the problem in that she sacrificed who she was as a person to meet the knight's impossible standards of a perfect king. It's not that "girls can't be kings" but that Saber essentially repressed all her human urges and passions to be an ideal monarch for her people, never getting the chance to enjoy her life as a young girl, grow old like a normal human and, yes, settle down with a person she loved if she so desired. She was forced into an unaging, inhuman body and mindset. Her acting 'girly', liking stuffed animals and whatnot doesn't negate her greatness as a king/knight but represents how she's more then an ideal but a person who's allowed to goof off and enjoy herself.

Really, Saber was a victim of gender roles as a king too. Saying that women who are feminine can't be powerful and the only women who can hold power are those who utterly renounce their femininity and portray themselves as a man (which, stereotypically, means stoicism and never showing weakness, both hardly the most healthy traits taken to extremes) is Femmephobia and destructive to any kind of real gender equality.

Oh and by the way, it's "Last Episode", not "Last Dream". Just your friendly neighborhood

nitpick

correction

here.

[Arashi_Leonhart]

Like, you can go ahead and call sexism or whatever when you look at things under a microscope but like we talked at length about in the UBW thread about ANN reviews, it's not like you're supposed to actually go into a given chinese cartoon with a hyper-sensitive evil-patriarchy-is-in-everything set of lenses, because yeah, sure, if you do, I'm sure you'll find plenty. In anything.

[SeiKeo]

I see what you mean, actually. The core message was that becoming an ideal at the expense of your humanity is wrong, but that's bogged down by the problematic gender elements involved. It comes off as not the sophisticated message that Nasu likely intended (guy's not an idiot) but the simply sophomoric "Girls shouldn't be kings LOLOLOL". With Saber though, giving up her 'femininity' was part of the problem in that she sacrificed who she was as a person to meet the knight's impossible standards of a perfect king. It's not that "girls can't be kings" but that Saber essentially repressed all her human urges and passions to be an ideal monarch for her people, never getting the chance to enjoy her life as a young girl, grow old like a normal human and, yes, settle down with a person she loved if she so desired. She was forced into an unaging, inhuman body and mindset. Her acting 'girly', liking stuffed animals and whatnot doesn't negate her greatness as a king/knight but represents how she's more then an ideal but a person who's allowed to goof off, enjoy herself and the like.

Really, Saber was a victim of gender roles as a king too. Saying that women who are feminine can't be powerful and the only women who can hold power are those who utterly renounce their femininity and portray themselves as a man (which, stereotypically, means stoicism and never showing weakness) is Femmephobia and destructive to any kind of real gender equality.

Oh and by the way, it's "Last Episode", not "Last Dream". Just your friendly neighborhood

nitpick

correction

here.

i like how the guy talking about problematic gender elements is defending nasu's assumption of inherent 'femininity'

[Arashi_Leonhart]

well if king arthur was a dude and he was gay with shirou it would be the same scenario. If King Arthur was a dude and Shirou was a woman it'd be the same scenario as well.
This isn't a case of "Saber is eternally waiting because she is a woman and that's what women do," she's eternally waiting because she's stuck in avalon because that's the legend King Arthur is based on.
TM has no qualms going the other way around either. See the Apo ending.

also you don't want her continuing to fight, then she and the other knights go crazy and have to be put down by people with glowy arms

[RoydGolden]

i like how the guy talking about problematic gender elements is defending nasu's assumption of inherent 'femininity'

It's... a little bit complicated then that, but I'm about to go to bed and so can't innumerate any further right now See ya later!

[You]

also you don't want her continuing to fight, then she and the other knights go crazy and have to be put down by people with glowy arms

soul burning glowy arms that LIE

[SeiKeo]

It's... a little bit complicated then that, but I'm about to go to bed and so can't innumerate any further right now See ya later!

'she should enjoy life like a young girl and like stuffed animals like a girl', nice

[Mcjon01]

'she should enjoy life like a young girl and like stuffed animals like a girl', nice

She does like stuffed animals though

So do i

[You]

She does like stuffed animals though

So do i

you ara ara so of course you ara.

[Sesto]

If any translators are up for translating all the GO scenes with Marie in them (not including Swimsuit event), I am willing to pay. Pls pm me

This is completely serious offer btw

[asterism42]

She does like stuffed animals though

So do i

I don't wish to meet a person who actively despises stuffed animals.

[Lily Emilio]

Those pigs in the FGO summer event = perfect stuffed animals material. TM will make them a thing and place them in Saber's bedroom too.

[Snow]

Men also have to sacrifice their femininity to be taken seriously so it's perfectly fair.

femininity

is actually evil

*manspreads*

[Rafflesiac]

femininity

is actually evil

*manspreads*

What's it like working with puppets, Gen?

[Snow]

What's it like working with puppets, Gen?

Soliloquy: 膺懷丹心承天命，身負恩仇江湖行；裂棄柔絲綺羅絹，付盡情夢仗寒兵。 – Adhering to the values of the Dān, I bear my fate: traveling the earth, seeking honor and revenge. Stripping away my meekness as a woman, I shall battle the heartless at the price of my hopes and dreams.

Same old, same old.

[SpoonyViking]

Please refer once more to episode 15 before you say something false about the anime.

I'll take your word for it. In that case, my mistake.

Yes, it's unnecessary. It's like they're unlikable and hypocritical or something!

Except the narrative - well, at least the anime's - doesn't treat Kiritsugu as "unlikable" in spite of his way of life. Quite the opposite, in fact; in many ways, it's quite sympathetic to him. Same with Iskander, actually.

Please refer to both the book and the anime in which a guy who only dreams about things he feels in his heart is critical of another person who only dreams about things she feels in her heart.

His argument is more like that while he dreams of things he feels in his heart, Saber only dreams of things others feel in their heart.

exactly

Ah, I see. So one shouldn't judge how female characters don't have arcs of their own because there aren't many important female characters in the first place, but one should also not judge how their narratives are centered on them being victimised by others (in contrast to the male characters) because of this one unimportant female character.

See what I meant when I said you're intelectually dishonest?

Like, you can go ahead and call sexism or whatever when you look at things under a microscope but like we talked at length about in the UBW thread about ANN reviews, it's not like you're supposed to actually go into a given chinese cartoon with a hyper-sensitive evil-patriarchy-is-in-everything set of lenses, because yeah, sure, if you do, I'm sure you'll find plenty. In anything.

Indeed, we should be extremely pedantic toward every little thing in the lore, but heaven forbid we actually analyse a work of fiction in terms of gender, we should just accept accept it as it is!

Yeah, I'm done discussing this with you.

Considering groundwork had already been lain in SN for Kiritsugu, Waver, and Tokiomi and their Servants [...]

Waver? In "Stay Night"?

well if king arthur was a dude and he was gay with shirou it would be the same scenario. If King Arthur was a dude and Shirou was a woman it'd be the same scenario as well.

I doubt Nasu would have come up with that scenario in the first place if the genders had been reversed. Indeed, while "Fate" is framed as Shirou helping Saber in her character arc, the little we've seen and read of "Prototype" was the other way around, with Arthur helping Ayaka's development.

TM has no qualms going the other way around either. See the Apo ending.

But the issue isn't TM, it's Urobuchi specifically. Or, well, to be more precise, "Zero".

[madarra]

I doubt Nasu would have come up with that scenario in the first place if the genders had been reversed. Indeed, while "Fate" is framed as Shirou helping Saber in her character arc, the little we've seen and read of "Prototype" was the other way around, with Arthur helping Ayaka's development.

.

Prototype is not OG Fate, as a result, Arthur and Ayaka being the same as Shirou and Saber would make people complain.

[RoydGolden]

'she should enjoy life like a young girl and like stuffed animals like a girl', nice

She should be allowed to, yes. Not forced, but allowed.

Mind you, Saber was still a king by the end of Fate. She wasn't giving up her life as a king for anything ('femininity' or otherwise) but simply living a more balanced life then the one forced by (patriarchal) expectations of how a 'king' should act.

[Mcjon01]

Actually at the end of Fate she was just dead.