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Thread: The Type-Moon Miscellaneous Thoughts Thread

  1. #30001
    At Least a Human Being falseCeilings's Avatar
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    'optimistic'

  2. #30002
    What? It's what he said.
    Spoiler:
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    Bob the Builder's evil twin.
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    HF felt like Nasu holding up a megaphone and screaming, "LOOK AT HOW SAD THIS IS! ISN'T IT SAD? YOU SHOULD FEEL SAD!"


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    > Einzbern

    > Making smart decisions


    Pick one


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    Palingenesis just sounds like we're creating Sarah Palin.


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    >tfw you betray your ideals to get some


    Spoiler:
    Quote Originally Posted by Mizukume View Post
    In short, Japan's syncretism BS striked again.




  3. #30003
    ちちうえ~❤ AmADo VII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skull View Post
    Kohaku, who will now have a PS5 and play all the stereotypical nerd games.
    Kohaku is waiting for new Sega console just like us waiting for Tsuki remake.
    Family Mo-san

  4. #30004
    死徒 Dead Apostle weeblord's Avatar
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    Remake Kohaku is a fortnite streamer

  5. #30005
    not really feeling it tbh Ratman's Avatar
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    what if there was a scene with her abusing neco-arc by throwing her around I mean what if haha

  6. #30006
    nicht mitmachen Dullahan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laserman View Post
    So you say he's more optimistic, but he doesn't believe in the future? How does that work? And god, why did he have to answer like that.
    I didn't say that he's more optimistic.

    You can think of nasu 'not believing in the future' as an inference from there being a certain kind of story which nasu either is no longer willing or no longer able to write. This is the kind of story which - if you were to strip away all supernatural paraphernalia - knk and tsuki and FSN would reduce to, one whichs calls into question the conditions of possibility for human happiness. It's not a great violence done to the text to see the work of the early nasu as being intimately concerned with happiness. Knowing his fondness for the novels of Kyougoku Natsuhiko I would hazard you could consider a lot of early nasu as an extended meditation on a single line from the ending of the book Mouryou no Hako (1995) where - after some discussion of the book's antagonist - the character Chuuzenji concludes that "Happiness is easy to achieve; all you have to do is cease being human." (quoted from memory, it's something to that effect). This notion, is what nasu calls into question.

    His work will generally start with unhappiness, with various species of unhappiness, unhappiness which may perhaps at first not even be perceived as unhappiness, and from here will spiral through an intricate system of internal reflections to arrive - if it can - at a point from which human happiness becomes possible. Human happiness, for early nasu, is bound up in the future. It belongs to the future - not the future of teleology, of grand historical narratives, but the concrete future which concretely promises happiness in the here and now: for this person, this girl, this boy, this particularly. Hence why early nasu's happiest moments are at endings - and why they necessarily have to be there, where narration cuts off: because the concrete future, if it is to be preserved in its promise of happiness, cannot be depicted without destroying it. I dislike Mirai Fukuin but the speech shiki gives to kamekura about the future is precisely this point: what can-throwing kid's eyes have seen is not the future as such, the concrete future of indefinite promise, because by 'fixing' it in shape as he does he's rendered it something less - something destructible.

    Now Nasu doesn't write these kinds of stories any more. There are more things to say on this point, particularly about how the concept of 'Humanity' (non-concrete, abstract, big historical teleology kind of deal) has had an ever-increasing amount of weight put on it in regard of Humanity's Future, capital-F, etc etc, but i've done that elsewhere and see no need to labour the point. The notion of this glorious future history of Humanity is a beautiful piece of wallpaper placed over the reality that nasu's characters no longer work towards the conditions of a concrete human happiness in the here-and-now, nor indeed seem to have any interest in it. Would we even take it seriously, if they tried? Doubtful. TM's business is today tied up in these blank slates, more vessels of a user interface than characters, who stand around and make quips while curating a collection of dead people. Where is the future in this?

    nb. someone here will inevitably come at me with "b-b-but muh dr. roman! i cri everytim" or similar retardation. think about it for more than 30 seconds. you should be able to see the contradiction.
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  7. #30007
    Surpass her level, if you dare. hayate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody View Post
    ...alter the Heaven's Feel script...
    Sudou would like to have a word with him about this.

    And I think some of the inputs Sudou made were Nasu's, given that he graced the voice over booths with his presence before. And if UBW ufotable version were of any indication, he did add details.
    Not dealing with it...

    Why even try?


    This is golden...
    Quote Originally Posted by Altaris View Post
    Lol Ishtarin went full Aqua
    Quote Originally Posted by Optimus View Post
    I've seen people in this forum spend the GDP of a third world country into Grand Order
    Quote Originally Posted by forumghost View Post
    Yeah, there's a saying that you should strive for perfection knowing full well you won't achieve it. Saber looked at it and said "Hold my Beer"
    Quote Originally Posted by forumghost View Post
    And then all her friends resented her for it.

  8. #30008
    Βack by popular demand Deathhappens's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dullahan View Post
    I didn't say that he's more optimistic.

    You can think of nasu 'not believing in the future' as an inference from there being a certain kind of story which nasu either is no longer willing or no longer able to write. This is the kind of story which - if you were to strip away all supernatural paraphernalia - knk and tsuki and FSN would reduce to, one whichs calls into question the conditions of possibility for human happiness. It's not a great violence done to the text to see the work of the early nasu as being intimately concerned with happiness. Knowing his fondness for the novels of Kyougoku Natsuhiko I would hazard you could consider a lot of early nasu as an extended meditation on a single line from the ending of the book Mouryou no Hako (1995) where - after some discussion of the book's antagonist - the character Chuuzenji concludes that "Happiness is easy to achieve; all you have to do is cease being human." (quoted from memory, it's something to that effect). This notion, is what nasu calls into question.

    His work will generally start with unhappiness, with various species of unhappiness, unhappiness which may perhaps at first not even be perceived as unhappiness, and from here will spiral through an intricate system of internal reflections to arrive - if it can - at a point from which human happiness becomes possible. Human happiness, for early nasu, is bound up in the future. It belongs to the future - not the future of teleology, of grand historical narratives, but the concrete future which concretely promises happiness in the here and now: for this person, this girl, this boy, this particularly. Hence why early nasu's happiest moments are at endings - and why they necessarily have to be there, where narration cuts off: because the concrete future, if it is to be preserved in its promise of happiness, cannot be depicted without destroying it. I dislike Mirai Fukuin but the speech shiki gives to kamekura about the future is precisely this point: what can-throwing kid's eyes have seen is not the future as such, the concrete future of indefinite promise, because by 'fixing' it in shape as he does he's rendered it something less - something destructible.

    Now Nasu doesn't write these kinds of stories any more. There are more things to say on this point, particularly about how the concept of 'Humanity' (non-concrete, abstract, big historical teleology kind of deal) has had an ever-increasing amount of weight put on it in regard of Humanity's Future, capital-F, etc etc, but i've done that elsewhere and see no need to labour the point. The notion of this glorious future history of Humanity is a beautiful piece of wallpaper placed over the reality that nasu's characters no longer work towards the conditions of a concrete human happiness in the here-and-now, nor indeed seem to have any interest in it. Would we even take it seriously, if they tried? Doubtful. TM's business is today tied up in these blank slates, more vessels of a user interface than characters, who stand around and make quips while curating a collection of dead people. Where is the future in this?

    nb. someone here will inevitably come at me with "b-b-but muh dr. roman! i cri everytim" or similar retardation. think about it for more than 30 seconds. you should be able to see the contradiction.
    I mean, what I'm reading here is that Nasu simply changed his scope from personal stories to broader "epic scale" narratives, which besides FGO is also evident in the move from Extra (distinctly focused on Hakuno and a handful of well-defined characters) to Extella (which splits its focus between three heroines and a significant number of side characters on each faction). This desire to "go big", as it were, is nothing particularly new either; there's that infamous line about the Nasuverse becoming the equivalent of the Marvel Universe, for instance, though that was about other people writing stories set in it rather than directly about scale. I'm sure your analysis is valid at least to a point, but it's hardly the only possible explanation for the evolution of his writings.
    Last edited by Deathhappens; November 9th, 2019 at 02:37 PM.
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    Shitty gacha games I have wasted hours of my life on

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  9. #30009
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six SpoonyViking's Avatar
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    I wonder if it's just a change in scope. Last Encore is a very personal story, after all.
    My fanfics:
    The Gift (a Fate/Stay Night one-shot)
    - A duel between Cú Chulainn and Scáthach.
    Passion Acknowledged (a Fate/Stay Night one-shot) (Lemon) - Shirou and Shinji finally acknowledge their feelings.
    He Was a Good King (a Fate/Stay Night one-shot) - A short exploration of Beowulf's character as a hero and a king.
    A Fairy Tale of Love and Death (a Fate/Stay Night one-shot) - A meeting between Scáthach and King Hassan in the distant past.

  10. #30010
    吸血鬼 Vampire Comun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deathhappens View Post
    I mean, what I'm reading here is that Nasu simply changed his scope from personal stories to broader "epic scale" narratives, which besides FGO is also evident in the move from Extra (distinctly focused on Hakuno and a handful of well-defined characters) to Extella (which splits its focus between three heroines and a significant number of side characters on each faction. This desire to "go big", as it were, is nothing particularly new either; there's that infamous line about the Nasuverse becoming the equivalent of the Marvel Universe, for instance, though that was about other people writing stories set in it rather than directly about scale. I'm sure your analysis is valid at least to a point, but it's hardly the only possible explanation for the evolution of his writings.
    The point here is not much personal vs epic and more about when happiness comes. KnK, Tsukihime, stay Night are stories with harsh pasts, harsh presents and a hopeful future. The first two EXTRA games arguably don't even have the "hopeful future" part. Grand Order, on the other hand, is a complete celebration of the past, not only on the level of selling itself on how past people did great thing, but also on how the characters are quick to think fondly of the cirscumstances they go through in-game. Just play through Babylonia and you might find at least five instances of the game outright stopping to pose you the question "Are you enjoying your adventure so far?". Then there's the Timeless Temple finally, where Goetia can give all of humanity an eternal happy future, but that's bad because it would happen via reset, which would replace all the wonderful past everyone loves so much.

    The point here is that Nasu changed from someone who believes happiness only exists in the future to someone who can find happiness in the present by looking at the past that shaped through biased lenses of gratitude. Which version is better comes to personal preference.

  11. #30011
    nicht mitmachen Dullahan's Avatar
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    N.B. some personal preferences are better than others
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  12. #30012
    Βack by popular demand Deathhappens's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Comun View Post
    The point here is not much personal vs epic and more about when happiness comes. KnK, Tsukihime, stay Night are stories with harsh pasts, harsh presents and a hopeful future. The first two EXTRA games arguably don't even have the "hopeful future" part. Grand Order, on the other hand, is a complete celebration of the past, not only on the level of selling itself on how past people did great thing, but also on how the characters are quick to think fondly of the cirscumstances they go through in-game. Just play through Babylonia and you might find at least five instances of the game outright stopping to pose you the question "Are you enjoying your adventure so far?". Then there's the Timeless Temple finally, where Goetia can give all of humanity an eternal happy future, but that's bad because it would happen via reset, which would replace all the wonderful past everyone loves so much.

    The point here is that Nasu changed from someone who believes happiness only exists in the future to someone who can find happiness in the present by looking at the past that shaped through biased lenses of gratitude. Which version is better comes to personal preference.
    And like I said that's a valid reading, but it focuses too much on Grand Order's story (which by dint of its core conceit is always looking back to the past to harvest more characters for the gacha) and doesn't take into account the spirit of his other works.
    Quote Originally Posted by I3uster View Post
    It's like with centaur girls, you're fucking a horse. Sure the human part is the one that moans but your dick is in the horse, no way around it.
    Quote Originally Posted by You View Post
    boytoy angst > fulfilling life of misanthropic extremist environmentalism
    Shitty gacha games I have wasted hours of my life on

    Currently playing:
    -Fate/Grand Order
    -Azur Lane
    -Girls Frontline
    -Granblue Fantasy

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    -PMMM: Magia Record
    Dragalia Lost

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    Once and always and nevermore.

  13. #30013
    死徒 Dead Apostle Bugs's Avatar
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    ...because the spirit of his other works is diametrically opposed to the spirit with which GO was written?

  14. #30014
    The Greatest Cool Reign's Avatar
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    Fish Rin means his other recent works like Extella and LE, which I don't recall having that celebration of the past spirit/tone.

  15. #30015
    Surpass her level, if you dare. hayate's Avatar
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    Come to think of it, the very concept of Lostbelts is Nasu being on max edge.

    And yep, can definitely see the quote "To attain happiness, you must cease being human" here.

    Dang it, Lostbelts. Even Fou is now feeding on that concept at that moment.
    Not dealing with it...

    Why even try?


    This is golden...
    Quote Originally Posted by Altaris View Post
    Lol Ishtarin went full Aqua
    Quote Originally Posted by Optimus View Post
    I've seen people in this forum spend the GDP of a third world country into Grand Order
    Quote Originally Posted by forumghost View Post
    Yeah, there's a saying that you should strive for perfection knowing full well you won't achieve it. Saber looked at it and said "Hold my Beer"
    Quote Originally Posted by forumghost View Post
    And then all her friends resented her for it.

  16. #30016
    Knight of Joestar SirGauoftheSquareTable's Avatar
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    GO kind of has to glorify the past and/or the present because the future is always destroyed through one mechanism or another. Hard to glorify something that no longer exists.
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathhappens View Post
    Really, all 3 of the romances in F/SN are 'for want of a nail' kind of situations.
    Quote Originally Posted by forumghost View Post
    You mean because Shirou winds up falling for the first of the three that he Nailed?
    Quote Originally Posted by Tobias View Post
    I speak for the majority of important people* *a category comprised entirely of myself

  17. #30017
    リビングデッド Living Dead Lolly Battory's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dullahan View Post
    The notion of this glorious future history of Humanity is a beautiful piece of wallpaper placed over the reality that nasu's characters no longer work towards the conditions of a concrete human happiness in the here-and-now, nor indeed seem to have any interest in it.
    I don't think Nasu intended this in FSN but he's since then stated that Fate is centered around Heroic spirits. What you described there is the logical conclusion of that. Incarnations of heroes as a central focus make more sense in a story about "affirming history" as teleology than in a game of Battle Royale. In this sense FGO is more Fate-ish than FSN where you could change the servants for "special familiars with no link to history/myths" and still be able to tell the same story. This could be a Fate only thing and maybe he'll write differently if he chooses to write more non-Fate stuff after Tsukihime R.

  18. #30018
    ちちうえ~❤ AmADo VII's Avatar
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    Fate is centered around HS but they will never be main character.
    Family Mo-san

  19. #30019
    リビングデッド Living Dead Lolly Battory's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmADo VII View Post
    Fate is centered around HS but they will never be main character.
    That makes sense in my opinion. It's not Cu Cuchulain and Shakespeare. It's Hero Cu Cuchulain and historically significant playwright Shakespeare. Maybe I'm giving this too much thought but I see it like an action anime depiction of someone going in a library and reading about these people. You have alienation from history caused by knowing about death as Goetia. Why does the past or future matter to me? You overcome it by making bonds with significant people from the past who like you knew they were going to die. Then you have why should it have happened like this and not like that instead with the Lostbelts. Anyway the point is that HS here are reaffirming tools for the person using them to know or reinforce their place in history like an analogy for reading about them in a library or being educated about them in school etc. It's why HS have a more important place in a story about human history. Whereas in FSN they were like a rhetorical mirror for Shirou "what does it mean to be a hero or an anti-hero" "what does it mean to have a wish and what does having it granted mean?" etc.

  20. #30020
    not really feeling it tbh Ratman's Avatar
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    In this context I guess making a Melty Blood/FGO crossover makes more sense. In Melty, you're not only kind of ruining the future of Tsukihime, but the story itself is eschatological, much like the Dark Six was meant to be.

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