Onigokko

[Sei]

Let's see, my snap thought is, change itself isn't a bad thing, hell if it makes it easier or more enjoyable for you as GM I would probably say go for it.

that said, I would kind of like to know what said changes were in a bit a bit more detail before I could say whether or not the changes would be enjoyable from a player perspective

Basically the idea here is to simplify the mechanics within the game to make them easier to grasp and generally make things more accessible. Like the various defense mechanics and how damage is calculated in general. I have a vague idea of how I want to accomplish this already, but I'm not 100% sold on it as is. In the short term, it'd make more immediate work for me to get done; however, in the long run it would make it so that there's less math for me to deal with from then on. Furthermore there'd probably be a bit of learning on the player's part during the adjustment. Which is one of the reasons I'm asking for input.

[RacingeR]

I just want to do stuff, is the short version of my overall opinion.

I dunno if it has to do with simplicity or complexity of the system, or not, and in all honestly I can't really judge it because it has been years since my PC has been able to do anything combat-wise, and has been mostly squatting in a basement exchanging words with NPCs. Mind you, this is not meant to be incendiary, as rather an indicative that I really can't say much here, mechanics-wise. I haven't even been able to experience the stuff added with Second Sin. So my opinion here is pretty much that of a lurker.

I feel that stuff as it is in Second Sin is fine (even if I never got my CS stuff and felt like I was 50 points short of everyone else because of that). It is neither too complicated to keep track of, and gives a decent amount of options for the players to use, so I think it is good enough when combined with the karma shop. However... I can't really say much about the new mechanics since, except for a few, they were merely name-dropped. If we had a view of what each is supposed to do, then I think we'd be able to judge more in depth whether they're necessary or they make things too complex. Apart from that, I'd say, since I've used this system in Titan, that there definitely is a bit of an issue with AGI/EVA, wherein they feel kind of useless for the players due to the high stats monsters and enemy NPCs sport (which seems unavoidable given the binary results expected of those stats), and the spells with low speed (mostly those with 15 SPD) feel like they won't see any use, since they're too slow to hit the enemies they'd actually be worth using them into.

This is mechanics-wise, of course.

If we're talking overall combat-wise... well, if you asked me whether I liked the 'early' Oni in comparison with the 'later' Oni, I'd say that I liked it a lot more earlier on, but I feel that has a lot to do with a change of the way situations are handled. Before, there was... I'm not sure of how to say it, so take this with a grain of salt but I feel that before there was the 'chance of failure', compared with now that there is the 'certainity of failure'. In short, while PC actions often failed before, there was a chance of success actually happening, and of PCs actions accomplishing something or mattering positively. Later fights, I can't really remember any PC whose action ended up mattering, in a non-negative way: most of the time their moves get noped by the enemy or circumstance, and it becomes even more noticeable when often only the NPCs actually accomplish anything in the combat situations (in fact, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't remember a NPC ever failing an action in the RP as of now). I'd say that it even detracts from the tension sometimes, since I know already the PC will fail.

Again, take this with a grain of salt: when it comes to combat in Oni I'm pretty much a lurker and the people who have actually had the chance to fight would be able to give you better feedback here. Personally I have to comment I liked the Runaways' latest fight a lot better than most of the 'late' fights: while it did also have the feeling of failure being inevitable, it did allow some successes in the PCs actions and gave them space to be awesome.


EDIT: Actually I'd like Mellon to say his piece too since I recall him having some interesting stuff to say regarding combat.

[I3uster]

System wise I'm fine with everything as long as you keep the high lethality tbh. I like that HP is basically not a reliable indicator of how hard you are fucked in a particular situation because a precision hit can do much worse at any point. Also acts as an equalizer between characters that have stat boners and the more mundane guys.

I agree that EVA/AGI needs a bit of a revision. You already made adjustments for it to have percentage based reduction but it still has its old mechanics past the threshold. And making it so reliable basically means it is a binary between god stat or useless depending if something passes the threshold or not. Maybe allow more situational uses for evasion, allowing a lower eva stat to still feel useful? As it is now 8 points in it might as well be 0.

[mAc Chaos]

I thought were against high lethality on forum RPs. Why do you like it in this one?

[I3uster]

I thought were against high lethality on forum RPs. Why do you like it in this one?

Does that actually matter though, do you play primarily for the thrill of dying?

I mean I enjoy it when I do get some significant tension but it's not something that I need as primary motivator in everything. Something like Oni is enhanced by it but is something like Ga-Rei automatically worse because you aren't in constant fear of death when you post?

amu onegai

[SeiKeo]

I don't like it, except when I do. And I think I've got a good handle on liking things.

[I3uster]

discussion: two people arguing for universal application of x
my argument: nuanced application of x

its me, i dont have a consistent opinion

[mAc Chaos]

yeah but what makes you like it about this one

is it just because its horror

what about it makes it good

[Bloble]

yeah but what makes you like it about this one

is it just because its horror

what about it makes it good

it's not horror if it's not scary

it's not scary if there's no sense of danger

there's no sense of danger if there's no risk of dying

do you see the logic here or should i make a flowchart

[SeiKeo]

Is it horror?

[mAc Chaos]

can you really be scared in a forum RP

[I3uster]

Horror is disempowerment fantasy, it means you want to feel threatened and not in full control. Character death as real possibility in a pbp RP especially when demonstrated to actually happen like it did in here is a good way to actually have a threat.

I mean it can't really scare me because no shit, it's a text medium, text isn't scary. But I did get really tense at moments (spin can attest to the most famous of those hue). The threat of actually having a character you played for a few years to just bleed out alone and forgotten is an actual threat that transcends the medium (provided you are invested in what you play anyway).

You pretty much need it here as integral part of the experience. When I play some shounen thing where everybody shoots lasers at each other I don't really. The draw is something else there.

[SeiKeo]

can you really be scared in a forum RP

Unfortunately nobody saved an audio file of Buster literally screaming when he found out that he didn't get killed off IC.

[I3uster]

wow synched like this

i-is it love

[Vritra]

Sorry to hear about that Sei and as far as my opinion goes I have to say that I kind of like the current mechanics because they feel like they give a good blend of hard and soft and I never really found them hard to grasp, well maybe that was just because I eyeballed things more often than not but yeah as a majority I think the current set works fine, a few things like Agi vs Eva feel a little off which was something that carried over into all the other rp's that borrowed from your system. But honestly if you really want to or your feel like it would work better I don't mind changing I've always felt like you had good sense for systems so I'm not worried that you'll break something horribly and I don't mind having to switch.

So for summary I don't mind the old but I wouldn't mind getting a new one if you thought it would work better.

[hero]

I personally like the system for the most part. It's pretty enjoyable overall, but my favorite part is obviously the karma shop. I'd like to see some of the fighting methods you talked about some time earlier being implemented as well (i think one is already in use IC), but I can't really come up with anything negative. Well, maybe just one thing (beside the agi eva thing everyone talks about): Sometimes it feels like we're against a free form opponent as yellow sheet'd players, especially when the enemy has some conceal skill ability or revealing what they can do would ruin the suspense, and that creates a bigger disadvantage sometimes. Not a big deal to me, but I've noticed it a couple of times.

System wise I'm fine with everything as long as you keep the high lethality tbh. I like that HP is basically not a reliable indicator of how hard you are fucked in a particular situation because a precision hit can do much worse at any point.

I agree. I like how having high HP doesn't guarantee you'll finish the fight without lamenting long-term consequences. That said, I'd noted a few changes below that I maybe would like to see to ensure that same mechanic isn't abused.

I agree that EVA/AGI needs a bit of a revision. You already made adjustments for it to have percentage based reduction but it still has its old mechanics past the threshold. And making it so reliable basically means it is a binary between god stat or useless depending if something passes the threshold or not. Maybe allow more situational uses for evasion, allowing a lower eva stat to still feel useful? As it is now 8 points in it might as well be 0.

Here's a suggestion, could be totally flawed:

1. Make Eva situational for all levels (I mean possible EVA scores) and make it more of a challenge than a direct check vs AGI. For instance, dodging a punch in a fist fight should be easier than getting out of the way of a highly pressurized water shot. That way a guy with 8 EVA might be able to avoid a punch is he puts some thought into his action (or if it seems reasonable due to his fighting skill etc, in case the exchange happens entirely during a GM update) instead of getting punched in the face every time. The same 8 EVA guy may be able to survive the high speed water shot as well, but it'd require some xanatos gambit bs. Basically EVA vs Challenge score (factoring narration) = result. Gives both GM and player food for interesting devolpments and removes some predictability.

2. Full evasion is rare (unless its a plot orchestrated dodge for drama purposes). Just cause you have 8 or 18 eva doesn't mean you'll dodge every punch out there. If you don't go out of the way to generate a 'dodge plan' (and then have the luck to make it work), then eva is more of a 'turn blows into grazing blows' stat. A kind of damage mitigator that doesn't reduce the damage suffered at all. It just provides some safety in the way that you can avoid things like => You take 20 HP (out of your 180) and lose and arm, gg. Rather than outright negate, it would let you use your head (and body) to redirect the attack elsewhere. In an extreme situation, if an attack has granted precision against your head (which would result in a fatal strike), do something like shield yourself with your arms and lose them instead of your head. Dunno, something like that.

3. Big difference in AGI vs EVA still has a effect. New full evasion = No precision strikes allowed (or allowed but with heavy penalty). This should serve to punish those that spam precision without fearing any sort of counter-play, because drawing aggro and stuff is irrelevant to the current situation (Ex. Makoto vs Aki & Merry). More aimed towards human vs human combat, as it is unlikely we can outmatch monsters in stats (at least those that matter).

[Sei]

So AGI vs EVA is the things to fix.

[Mellon]

EDIT: Actually I'd like Mellon to say his piece too since I recall him having some interesting stuff to say regarding combat.

Kinda hard for me to remember what I have specifically said at one point or another. Its been quite a while. >.>

Most of my general gripes are still with the kinda inflexible nature of these numerical-based systems, but that's a more fundamental personal preference and really not an issue here.

I don't think I really have any larger issues with system that have not been been brought up here. AGI/EVA is a large concern, but frankly I would rather see it replaced with maybe some sort of "dodge" counter based on your EVA stat (per Encounter)? Something along the lines of "get out of jail" cards that you can use, which would allow for better planning/timing, but would remove a lot of the mechanical busywork. By extension, I would probably want to shift any "non-dodge" hit (anything you didn't use your counter on) purely on your END/HP/Defensive stats. Frankly, I kinda feel that the additional numerical mechanics and such, are kinda risking bloating the calculations (and the sheer amount of separate mechanics) to frankly confusing degrees.

Another thing I kinda feel is off, is that a lot of the encounters are either "boss" (Belial, Giant Worm, Arbiter) or pushover (Cadavers). This kinda generates a situation where a lot of the time, what skills and abilities (and stats) you actually have are kinda irrelevant. There is either a "win state" solution to the situation or you have to run away. Now on one hand, I kind of understand this from a tension-building/narrative aspect, as being overwhelmed and helpless is kind of a core staple of the horror-genre (although it does lose its luster when applied several times in a row), but it does kinda leave me asking why our characters do have supernatural abilities if they can't really properly apply them in most cases (in a meaningful fashion).

Though I must admit, this may be in part stemming from my own personal opinion (perhaps a misconception) that Oni isn't really a straight up horror experience (ala Amnesia and whatnot, where disempowerment is a key factor), but rather an action RP with a horror theme (ala Resident Evil, where you are still capable of fighting off and defeating almost all of the monsters you come across).

[Sei]

Indeed, Oni was never really meant to be scary or anything. The setting itself just kind of lent itself to the horror genre. But I digress.

Encounters aren't exactly easy to handle because of everyone's supernatural powers. Because you are capable of fighting back and what-not, encounters have to be managed in such a way that they still pose a threat. For example, the mob that Team Runaways is currently engaging is something that started off very simple and very manageable. The enemy type encountered wasn't particularly powerful and could easily have been taken care of with a bit of planning. However, even though this is true, the enemies have to be played out in such a manner where they are trying to win as well (no matter how insignificant they are). This is how trash mobs quickly become a hassle and, because conservation of energy is important, it can quickly become unfavorable to actually deal with them (even if you still have the capacity to take them on). This I guess is the best example of the "run away" scenario.

Moving on from that, we have our dangerous encounters- the "bosses". Again, everyone is working with supernatural powers and working brains, so there are steps that have to be taken to make these encounters challenging. The idea is to make a singular encounter that can hold a team of oppressors (the players, who generally stay in teams). Of course I could just drop a bunch of adds, but that's annoying and obnoxious. I could make a bunch of gimmick encounters; however, not everyone thinks like me. What I perceive as obvious doesn't click the same for others and (of course) sometimes you just wanna bash your head against it until it kills over. So, naturally, the next best step is just to give it higher stats. I can toss in a bit of strat to even things out, but generally speaking just having something with amped up parameters seems to work the best. People see that they can't just run up to it, so they stop and think. They pull together, develop strategies, so on. It's these encounters that are intentionally designed to make someone consider whether they can do something about what's in front of them.

This is more or less my approach to designing encounters in Oni. I do my best to be fair to the player; however, in keeping with Oni's atmosphere, I'm not going out of my way to tone down the "difficulty". I understand that people don't see the strategies that I do and that's fine. I try to leave wiggle room for various approaches. That being said, when I sit down and step into the mind of the enemy, if I see an opportunity, I'm taking it. Most of the time I don't immediately move for the cruelest action (I more or less have a 3 strike system for that). But I guess what I'm trying to say here is that supernatural powers are commonplace here. They aren't something that are just going to catch people by surprise and if the best you've got is "toss out explosion A"... you can kind of expect it to not be super amazing. I dunno.

Now that you've seen my little spiel on the matter, if you have some kind of suggestion, I humbly welcome it.

[Bloble]

As I've said before, I have very few complaints with how things have been run so far. Constantly failing and feeling like a dumbass isn't the GM's fault; it's the player's, for choosing a "Hard Mode" RP to play in. I'll admit that the situation the Runaways got stuck in felt pretty much insurmountable at every step, but we were the ones who handled it poorly and made it that way.

My only suggestion to possibly improve Oni would be that in cases where there are many complex actions possible, extra effort should be taken to describe the surrounding and state of the "board", as you might call it, so that the players are as aware as possible of how things appear. Confidence in one's surroundings will make it easier to be creative and try new things that aren't defined by numbers or a system. I'm not saying to throw in detailed descriptions of every chunk of rock, or to highlight "important" objects as if it's some adventure game, but a bit more raw imagery wouldn't hurt to make everything seem more solid. The biggest obstacle we (the Runaways) faced in our fight against the mob was not quite understanding everyone's position in relation to each other, or the environment and what could be done with it. There were just too many things we "didn't know" or "didn't understand" and that lead to us picking strategies that relied as much as possible on what we did know, mostly to our detriment. Many times I even had to ask for a map to better visualize exactly what was going on, much like in a regular tabletop RPG, and even then I was never sure of our exact situation and had to constantly pester Sei for clarifications.

In this case, I'd actually suggest Titan as a positive example of how to do it right. Fights and encounters there frequently incorporate out-of-the-box thinking and maneuvering, and very successfully at that. Maybe taking a page out of Race's book could help here.