Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 61

Thread: A 20th level wizard on the Grail War

  1. #1
    死徒(下級)Lesser Dead Apostle whosaidthat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    474
    Blog Entries
    7

    A 20th level wizard on the Grail War

    What would happen if an Adventurer of D&D is summoned in the Grail War?

    Chaos, that is.
    _______________________________

    True Name: ??
    Class: 'Caster'

    STR E
    AGI E
    END C
    MANA C/EX
    LUCK C
    N.PHANTASM ??

    Class Skills: Territory Creation C, Item Creation D+++

    Skills: Vancian Casting C, Psionics A+++, Expert of Many Specializations A

    Noble Phantasm: Essence A, Spoils of War A, Legacy of Lost Items and Events EX

    Territory Creation C
    Due to Caster wandering nature, the ability to make a fixed stronghold is somewhat limited for it's class. It can supplement it with enough time and preparation, but the options are somewhat limited.

    ((Use of Permanency, Transmutation Spells, Illusions and Conjurations to create a good enough stronghold, while abusing the Auto-Resetting Magical traps rule to hell and back. It's level is actually tied to Vancian Casting stat due to access of higher level spells.))

    Item Creation D+++
    Due to Caster wandering nature, the ability to create powerful magic items are limited. However when certain factors are meet the item creating potential is enhanced.

    ((This Caster have Scribble Scroll, Craft Wondrous Item and Craft Universal Item featsl, but that's more than enough. Again, the real limiter is the access to higher level spells/powers and different enough powers. Of course, there are also Auto-Resetting Magic/Psionic traps you can use and abuse, but are harder to quantify.))

    Vancian Casting C
    A special form of magic native to Caster's world. Though with less overall power for it's supposed level of complexity, in certain matters their effects are absolute and inviolable, enforced by Akasha itself.

    ((Access to 5th level spells. Unfortunately most of the broken spells are higher level, but things like Protection from Evil are absolute in their effects, and nothing less than direct divine intervention with specific abilities or epic spells can bypass it, other than just old plain dispelling it.))

    Psionics A+++
    A special form of mystical power derived from the mind, sometimes incompatible with classical magecraft. The highest possible level of mental might one might attain before ascending to truly higher levels of existence.

    ((Access to 9th level powers? Check. Beating up action economy silly? Check. Doing that almost for free? Check, check, check. The only reason this doesn't get EX is because it is pre-epic and have limited access to powers.))

    Expert of Many Specializations A
    Caster wandered to many places and learned many things. Caster have access to several skills, ranging from E-rank to A-rank. Allows to identify certain forms of magecraft and Noble Phantasm with a successful luck check.

    ((Many knowledge skills, spellcraft, psicraft, some craft skills, a few odd skills such as balance and tumble. Other skills might or not be there))

    Essence, Support, Self, A
    The individual essence, basically the life force of one being. Caster can use the very essence of self to use certain abilities and create magical items. Sometimes used as currency with extremely powerful entities.

    ((Basically, XP, more specifically the halfway amount of XP between level 20 and 21. The reason it can be used as currency comes in the form of the Trap the Soul and similar spells, who in turn are traded later for items or even used as magical components for spells and rituals, alongside with trading with other high level souls on the afterlife between gods, demons and devils. Do you really think people walk around with 200k in cash even on the City of Doors?))

    Spoils of War, Support, Self, A
    The ability to claim the equipment worm and held of a fallen enemy. So long as Caster was directly involved in the defeat of an enemy, Caster can claim ownership of the enemy items regardless of rank, who can later be redistributed by Caster's discretion. This possession doesn't translate to skill in the item use, but only that Caster can use them. Eventually.

    ((The natural tendency of an adventurer to loot everything, from the enemy items to the enemy itself. Destroying magical items for an adventurer for any and all reasons are usually considered taboo. Caster also have access to Use Magic Device and Use Psionic Device, which translates to being able to activate certain Noble Phantasms))

    Legacy of Lost Items and Events, Support, Self, EX
    As an adventurer, Caster collected many treasures of many worlds, and eventually stumbled over tablets of lost and forbidden knowledge, alongside with powerful artifacts both Holy and Profane, some considered unspeakable Abominations even from Devils and Demons. Of course Caster keep all of them, a few of them at arms reach.

    ((Items of +6 to stats, all +5 books, a small armory of +x weapons, armors and shields of all times. Rings of Three Wishes, Candles of Invocation and basically any non-epic level item a DM would just laugh and throw the DMG at a player's head. Some are customized, like the Ring of Spellcraft +30, while others are sought after by anything with half a brain, such as Thought Bottles. Name it, Caster have at least one copy or know where to find it. A few of those items are even on Caster possession right now. Of course this also translates into certain levels of cheese, such as action economy abuse, NI loops, level drain + restoration abuse, wish based economy, The Wish/The Word, chaos shuffle, dragonwrought kobold with access to epic spells and others. Fortunately the true broken stuff like Omniscifer and Pun-Pun are held back in a treatise enforced by between multiple overdeities, Pun-Pun included, sealed and guarded by the Lady of Pain.))
    _______________________________

    Just one version of multiple possibilities. There is a much more modest version that won't make your DM try to strangle you to death. Much.

    I might make a real fic of this, but at best I will be dropping a few snippets here and there. Inspired by Dissonance Record on SB.
    Last edited by whosaidthat; April 5th, 2012 at 08:42 AM.
    Fate/Core Hero [Fate Stay Night/???]


  2. #2
    Don't worry, the liquid is resplendent Incarnite Azurnum's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Between the pages
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    761
    First off, go here.

    This is pretty much a person giving suggestions on how to shut down most of the rule abuses.

    Secondly, that's already already mid level on the DM's gonna strangle you meter

    Ooookay where to start with the actual character.

    1. False advertising
    You said 20th level Wizard, not Wizard 3/Psion(whatever)10/Cerebremancer 7

    This is sub optimal. Where are the levels in Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil? Incantrix? Artificer? Archivist?

    2. Psionics is too high a rank.
    Yes, I am well aware of how powerful the powers can get and some of the bs you can pull. However, at Servant level, we're sadly enough messing around in Epic Levels. Soooo yeeaaaah, have fun.

    3. Wealth By Level.
    The gear is waaaay too high, not unless the wizard spent several months doing nothing but making magic items.

    4. Mana
    Wizard would be floating around high C to mid B range.

    5. Expert of Many Specialisation
    E rank, at best. We're talking about a guy who spent at least 10 years locked up in a stuffy library unlocking arcane secrets. Not to mention the actual skillpoints the character would have; 5 points in a skill would roughly qualify a person to be an 'expert'.
    Replace with Librarian of Stored Knowledge

    6. Essence, Spoils of War, Legacy of Lost Items and Events probably don't fall under Noble Phantasms. They have to be something which literally defines the person, not the Archetype.

    7. Smack the DM on the head for me please. He shouldn't have let things get this out of hand.

  3. #3
    死徒(下級)Lesser Dead Apostle whosaidthat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    474
    Blog Entries
    7
    It was a level 20 wizard at first, but I only had this one after a quick search. The original entry was a 999x character, but since it involved you either being a monster or evil. Maybe I will revisit him or bring my own wizard stached somewhere.

    Psionics at A+++ includes non-epic, almost infinite cheese for very low cost. I don't think I need to explain why breaking of action economy is a bad thing.

    Breaking of WBL, which can be broken by Crafting, commissioning artificers and hunting dragons. Lots and lots of 3x Standard dragons failing prey to shivering touches. Also, planar binding was involved at some point. It included candles. Also, you can do wonders with an Auto-resetting trap of True Creation that makes a little bit of gold/silver/cold iron/adamantine/mytril each few seconds.

    There is a nice way for you to have access to both NI actions and pp, at the same time. I will leave that as an exercise to the reader. (hint, google it)

    Expert of Many Specialisation includes all your maxed knowledge skills, very high levels of craft, UMD, UPD, concentration, and whatever you can get away on other skills. Balance, Tumble, Bluff, Diplomacy, Sense Motive, Auto Hypnosis, Appraise, Search can find the light of the day. Look out for the debate on how mortal skills don't need more than 8 ranks to be the "Best of the Best". Of course, in this there aren't any Profession:Farmer. Besides, I doubt Zero Assassin had 32 skills at B-rank or higher and was that much better at it than your typical level 5~6 expert, this one have from E-rank to A-rank. If it is lower, it isn't much less than C or B.

    You can argue that Gate of Babylon is just a glorified handy hoversack. Besides, most adventurers end up pillaging a bucket load of items. You have iconic people with iconic items, but at the end of the day it is the guy with a whole demi-plane of Daggers +1 that makes the world run round, and he don't give a damn to your Promised Sword of Bullshit. Been there, done that, killed the deity and pissed on it's remains, sold the plane on Sigil. Lastly, when you come as the sole representative of such archetype on the world, it deserves to be treated as NP.

    This isn't a DM world, this is a RAW world. It is rules abuse because, deep down, we all know the game designers made a big mess while writting the rules, classes, magic items and everything else. Rule zero everything just means you admit the system have problems and is delegating that problem to someone else.
    Fate/Core Hero [Fate Stay Night/???]


  4. #4
    call me... senpai deviatesfish's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    8,238
    Blog Entries
    2
    Over powered with too many different skills.

    When I think of a 20th level Wizard, I only think of someone who stays hidden somewhere and casts a bunch of epic level spells... not whatever this is. There's like 3 times as much skills and abilities as a regular Servant. Cut that down by that much, then it'd seem more like a Servant.

    Why would he have such high luck, by the way?

  5. #5
    死徒(下級)Lesser Dead Apostle whosaidthat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    474
    Blog Entries
    7
    Quote Originally Posted by deviatesfish View Post
    Over powered with too many different skills.

    When I think of a 20th level Wizard, I only think of someone who stays hidden somewhere and casts a bunch of epic level spells... not whatever this is. There's like 3 times as much skills and abilities as a regular Servant. Cut that down by that much, then it'd seem more like a Servant.

    Why would he have such high luck, by the way?
    2+Int mod skills, Int based character and have all knowledge skills as class skills, alongside all craft skills, finalizing with all professions as class skills. A typical Intelligence 15 wizard can have Max K:Arcana, Max K:Planes, Max Spellcraft and whatever he wishes to spend for synergy bonus. More if it is human.

    Get someone with inherent Int 18+ 5(levels) +5(book/wish)+x (race), twenty class levels and you have enough to fill nine class skills to the max. Switch around a couple of Rings of Skill +20~+30 somewhere that are either self made, wished, commissioned or brought on the City of Doors and you can be a master of anything you want. If you're not picky, you can have more by sacrificing some skills to just half of the max ranks. If you really want, you can cherry pick a few cross class skills.

    If you really need that skill, you can always use the Level Drain + Restoration trick, but that usually spells overkill.

    Luck A? Uhm, that was more of a legacy of other build. On the other hand there are enough powers and spells that let you reroll or ignore certain problems. Besides, the mark of a good adventurer is to have massive dumb luck, while other times having absolutely abyssal luck. I think I can change that, however.
    Fate/Core Hero [Fate Stay Night/???]


  6. #6
    アルテミット・ソット Ultimate Thot Five_X's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Ontariariario
    Age
    30
    Posts
    25,423
    Blog Entries
    36
    > roll Wizard13/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 7
    > solo Grail War

    gg
    <NEW FIC!> Revolution #9: Somewhere out there, there's a universe in which your mistakes and failures never happened, and all you wished for is true. How hard would you fight to make that real?

    [11:20:46 AM] GlowStiks: lucina is supes attractive
    [12:40] Lace: lucina is amazing
    [12:40] Neir: lucina is pretty much flawless

  7. #7
    Preformance Pertension SeiKeo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    49,574
    Blog Entries
    9
    Quote Originally Posted by Five_X View Post
    > roll Wizard13/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 7
    > solo Grail War

    gg
    Or Incantrix, your particular flavor. Yeah, I feel a curbstomp song coming up XD
    Quote Originally Posted by asterism42 View Post
    That time they checked out that hot guy they were just admiring his watch, yeah?


  8. #8
    アルテミット・ソット Ultimate Thot Five_X's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Ontariariario
    Age
    30
    Posts
    25,423
    Blog Entries
    36
    Quote Originally Posted by LeopardBear View Post
    Or Incantrix, your particular flavor. Yeah, I feel a curbstomp song coming up XD
    Ah, what was that one class that could, at the final level of the PrC, cast Wish at will with no cost? That would just make the Grail War redundant.
    <NEW FIC!> Revolution #9: Somewhere out there, there's a universe in which your mistakes and failures never happened, and all you wished for is true. How hard would you fight to make that real?

    [11:20:46 AM] GlowStiks: lucina is supes attractive
    [12:40] Lace: lucina is amazing
    [12:40] Neir: lucina is pretty much flawless

  9. #9
    Preformance Pertension SeiKeo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    49,574
    Blog Entries
    9
    Quote Originally Posted by Five_X View Post
    Ah, what was that one class that could, at the final level of the PrC, cast Wish at will with no cost? That would just make the Grail War redundant.
    Why are you worrying about Wish with no cost as a class ability, just cast it free for Candle of Invocation (LE).
    Quote Originally Posted by asterism42 View Post
    That time they checked out that hot guy they were just admiring his watch, yeah?


  10. #10
    アルテミット・ソット Ultimate Thot Five_X's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Ontariariario
    Age
    30
    Posts
    25,423
    Blog Entries
    36
    Quote Originally Posted by LeopardBear View Post
    Why are you worrying about Wish with no cost as a class ability, just cast it free for Candle of Invocation (LE).
    Or buy a Ring of Three Wishes, lol. Things are cheaaaaaap.
    <NEW FIC!> Revolution #9: Somewhere out there, there's a universe in which your mistakes and failures never happened, and all you wished for is true. How hard would you fight to make that real?

    [11:20:46 AM] GlowStiks: lucina is supes attractive
    [12:40] Lace: lucina is amazing
    [12:40] Neir: lucina is pretty much flawless

  11. #11
    Venus Swordman Ergast's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Madrid
    Age
    36
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    6,924
    A good master doesn't let characters buy rings of three wishes (unless they are over level 30)
    Last edited by Ergast; April 5th, 2012 at 12:14 PM.

    Spoiler:
    Quote Originally Posted by shiningphoenix View Post
    Rin: "I wanted Saber..."
    Archer: "What? But Archers are all insanely OP, it's like a rule or something, why would you think Sabers were better?"
    Rin: "Sabers are more molestable..."
    Quote Originally Posted by Vigilantia View Post
    AC!Rin. Fixing problems one moan at a time.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sage of Eyes View Post
    Denizens of another dimension, meet Rin Tohsaka, Tsundere of Mass Destruction
    Quote Originally Posted by Christemo View Post
    I dont even know what Lunatique is. I assume it's terrible for the sake of argument.

  12. #12
    Preformance Pertension SeiKeo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    49,574
    Blog Entries
    9
    Quote Originally Posted by Ergast View Post
    A good master don't let characters buy rings of three wishes (unless they are over level 30)
    Good GMs have no place in supercheese and RAW.
    Quote Originally Posted by asterism42 View Post
    That time they checked out that hot guy they were just admiring his watch, yeah?


  13. #13
    アルテミット・ソット Ultimate Thot Five_X's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Ontariariario
    Age
    30
    Posts
    25,423
    Blog Entries
    36
    A good GM lets the players have fun, within reason.

    Rings of Three Wishes are, actually, within reason. You just need a good GM who can handle Wishes and all they... can turn out to be.
    <NEW FIC!> Revolution #9: Somewhere out there, there's a universe in which your mistakes and failures never happened, and all you wished for is true. How hard would you fight to make that real?

    [11:20:46 AM] GlowStiks: lucina is supes attractive
    [12:40] Lace: lucina is amazing
    [12:40] Neir: lucina is pretty much flawless

  14. #14
    死徒(下級)Lesser Dead Apostle whosaidthat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    474
    Blog Entries
    7
    Quote Originally Posted by Ergast View Post
    A good master don't let characters buy rings of three wishes (unless they are over level 30)
    A good master checks everything he will ever plan to introduce in the campaign, from classes to enemies to magic items. Worse yet, unless the master want to face a mutiny, he damn well should give a good reason for the party to be unable to loot that +25 Sword of Beamspam, specially one that doesn't involve the word "sunder". As even disjunction pointed out, if you break an artifact certain parties will be very interested in ending your life, from all sides of the alignment spectrum.

    Of course, everything changed once when it went from 2nd edition to third, and then there was the whole 3rd to 4th edition fiasco that toned down the powers of everything.

    Edit: Just wish for something in the normal parameters of a wish and that's fine. Interesting enough for beings that can cast wish without xp costs, it is entirely possible to wish for a Ring of Three Wishes.

    Back in the day, whe third edition just had came out, the The Wish used that rule to abuse the good will of a guilible GM and got a Ring of Infinity Wishes (not really infinity, but he never ran out of wishes) asked from an Efreet.
    Fate/Core Hero [Fate Stay Night/???]


  15. #15
    Venus Swordman Ergast's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Madrid
    Age
    36
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    6,924
    I like to end the destruction of artifacts with shiny giant explosions. Sometimes I even let the players live, although in another plane of existence, like going from Forgotten Realms to Greyhawk, by example. Travel in time is optional, too (in a game I was one of the players, we ended from a created world to greyhawk, about 1000 years in the past, and we had to save a child Mordenkainen. We even see him casting his first Magic Arrow)

    Spoiler:
    Quote Originally Posted by shiningphoenix View Post
    Rin: "I wanted Saber..."
    Archer: "What? But Archers are all insanely OP, it's like a rule or something, why would you think Sabers were better?"
    Rin: "Sabers are more molestable..."
    Quote Originally Posted by Vigilantia View Post
    AC!Rin. Fixing problems one moan at a time.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sage of Eyes View Post
    Denizens of another dimension, meet Rin Tohsaka, Tsundere of Mass Destruction
    Quote Originally Posted by Christemo View Post
    I dont even know what Lunatique is. I assume it's terrible for the sake of argument.

  16. #16
    Banned
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    SE Virginia
    Age
    31
    Posts
    11,727
    The important thing is what edition he's from. Preferably, it'd be AD&D, though even up to 3.5 is acceptable. 4th? The idea dies before it's even begun.

  17. #17
    Don't worry, the liquid is resplendent Incarnite Azurnum's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Between the pages
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    761
    I think now would be a bad time to point out that 5th ed is being made.

    Simple way to get past the players using your custom weapon of awesome. Make it a Legacy weapon. Dear gods the actual premade ones suck but damn can you make something awesome out of them.

  18. #18
    Banned
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    SE Virginia
    Age
    31
    Posts
    11,727
    5th Edition is basically being crowd sourced by WotC. You can't ask D&D fans what they want you idiots, they have no idea what they want!

  19. #19
    Don't worry, the liquid is resplendent Incarnite Azurnum's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Between the pages
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    761
    Ah so true, so very very true.

    I'm gonna stick to my 3.x ed in all its broken glory thank you very much Wizards. Though maybe I should take a look at 2nd and 1st ed some time I'm the future. I do know I'm not going to touch 4th ed in the future.

    Hmm, maybe I should post pun-pun the servant up on here....

  20. #20
    Banned
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    SE Virginia
    Age
    31
    Posts
    11,727
    The problem with D&D Classic is that it was very much of the mindset that the DM was the enemy, that rocks should always be falling, and everyone should be dying. It was with Advanced that they started to shift towards the idea that everyone, DM included, was working together to tell a story.

    4th Edition on the other hand tries to make wizards less broken by making everyone a wizard. THAT IS NOT HOW THAT WORKS.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •